An Expensive Front Suspension Is Not The Answer! Magnum Force vs Borgeson Vs Stock Mopar Comparison!

[@JrsGaragePa]

That suspension is something the factory engineers got right. Can you improve it, yes. Should you, for most applications, no

[@rocketresto]

You don't have to reinvent the wheel when the wheel works.

[@richardprice5978]

i think in general yeah as active is the only upper-pathways ie t-bar or air or frenching-hydraulics the back leafs im not a fan of on my charger 2g as i see 1950-60~ packers Caribbean as a better choice ( and 3-link + watt's ) with fully-t bar'd ect it would make a interesting comparisons as mopar released there version about the same time as bankruptcies for studibaker/packers LLC and or my charger's close in design and sized ect willwood's kit go big or ( started of all drums but had to many's problem's like china-slave-cylinder/bleeder popping-off and complete fail-PSI ) stay hazy/stock, i whent with the carbon-carbon up-grade pathway ( and same-ish-sidewalls% ( don't like rubber bands for tires ) + wider-tires to match ect, and running a pre-1993~ bendix 9 master-cylinder bolted in as jeep/mopar is lazybones and i benefitted from this for boost/camshaft swapping ect ) but currently running steel/hawks-pads as up-front is $$$ and im doing other things like a tr6060-swap+stroker-build D8-head engine

[@paradiseroadrestorations]

1960s Fords were designed right from the factory with the shock tower being the support mechanism, and they are known for the shock towers cracking. Putting all that stress on an area that was never designed for it is only going to lead to failure.

[@rocketresto]

Yep not a good design

[@josipkirasic835]

100%

[@samuelgoodman2825]

The ability to adjust the torsion bars to your taste is a bit of freedom that I appreciate.

[@samiam5557]

yes I agree

[@rocketresto]

One of the best attributes of that suspension

[@rockymeyers4030]

I put a borgeson in my E body. The box $600, hoses $100, coupling from Bergman that fit to the box without cutting the column $200. A lot of guys buy a TA length pitman when they get a firm feel. ($200)The long pitman is not needed with the borgeson. I got a NEW box with more room for exhaust. It steers better than my 2021 daily driver. I would bet that the comparison between firm feel and borgeson would be closer if both cars had their alignments dialed in. I spent more time dialing in the alignment than installing the steering box. Moog problem solver bushings on the stock control arms are the best.

[@rocketresto]

Borg definitely had better feel and price isn’t super far apart. Not a fan of how the column goes into the box however.

[@NJCarCruise]

I saw when you bought the '71 RR and were explaining about the suspension. I was considering the tubular K-frame and coil overs for my '74 Challenger but now I'm not. I'm sticking with the factory parts. your correct with the shock towers not being designed for coil overs and the load force should be on the torsion bar anchors. this is why I watch videos to see other opinions on aftermarket parts.

[@rocketresto]

Good call.

[@richardprice5978]

QA1 makes kit's that keep the t-bar's there a box-steering and then there's the rack-kit as my new engine has a 8~in SS-types 🍞 pan the drag-link doesn't fit well and or iv herd it can handle if set-up correctly

[@noberet]

This is one of the most important videos on car restoration/modification in all of history.

[@rocketresto]

Put a lot of effort into this one and really hope people watch it

[@clevelandmaker386]

@rocketresto I love it now ....we can we come down on the price...where a winged car ain't the price of a demon 170

[@ryanomalley430]

I’m glad you guys are going to put it back to stock, a car that rare deserves to be original in my opinion.

[@rocketresto]

Complete agreement. We are gathering parts now.

[@JeffMiletich]

3 beauties. My fave is the GTX. Just something about it. Your father's a lucky man- not only does he have a sweet Road Runner, he has a Tom & a Jamie...

[@rocketresto]

He’s pretty happy with the RR

[@johnagreen883]

Great job and thanks for taking the time to do this when you saw the opportunity. Confirms what I've always felt, that it is very hard to improve on the OEM, considering performance, engineering, durability, and in the end, I'm sure a rock stock car with everything rebuilt to original specs is worth more. I've never understood all the suspension and brake mods people do, only to drive to and from a car gathering or breakfast. We're not autocrossing these things for goodness sakes, or at least the overwhelming majority of us aren't.

[@rocketresto]

Was a lot of fun doing this one!

[@clembob8004]

I agree, the stock torsion bar suspension is the way to go, especially considering the cost of the aftermarket kit. It's much better to use some of that money to just replace any worn out stock components and a good set of shocks. Firm feel steering box is good, although I am ok with the "zero road-feel" stock box. Sways bars really help, especially front and rear.

[@rocketresto]

Have found a rear bar doesn’t make much of a difference but the front certainly does.

[@richardprice5978]

QA1/others makes kit's that keep the t-bar's the rack-kit as my new engine has a 8~in SS-types pan the drag-link doesn't fit well and or iv herd it can handle if set-up correctly

[@americanrambler4972]

The 71 satilite and road runner got new subframes for 1971 and one of the reasons was to put isolators between the frame where the motor and suspension was mounted and the unit body of the car. Was supposed to improve the ride and make it quieter. With the aftermarket coil over suspension, you are putting additional noise, harshness and vibration back into the car. I would stick with the stock front end and upgrade the power steering pump, box and maybe the upper control arms to get additional alignment adjustment. (Also double check to see if you have the asymmetrical rear leaf springs. They made a difference.)

[@gregorykern9679]

WRONG. It was 1973 that Chrysler revised the suspensions and steering systems on several cars. The 1971 B body structure wasn't much different from 1970. The K member itself was almost identical with the exception of the angle of the steering box mounting position. In 1973, there were several revisions including rubber cushions between the K member and frame rails. ALL power steering boxes were now large sector.

[@petergrey7125]

Tom, thank you for sharing this information as I am currently working on my 66 Fury convertible. This is great stuff to be aware of.

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching!

[@larryspiller6633]

I've love the 69' GTX s. A friend had one the same color as yours back in 1978. His brother got a a 73' SD Trans Am the following year in 1979 when he turned 16. Sure some other cars had more get up and go, but those 2 beasts always had more to give at the top end, higher speeds especially over distance. The GTX had zero traction issues. The Trans Am liked to get a little squirrely on the launch. I miss those days.

[@debbiebermudez5890]

Mr. B. Here ! Greetings fellow Armor ⚔️ . I was a Cavalry Scout

[@larryspiller6633]

@@debbiebermudez5890 Combat Engineer here. Tracks over wheels any day!!!!!!!

[@rocketresto]

Mopar leaf spring design works great for traction.

[@Mclovingarage]

The GTX looks tame and mild next to the body work and design of the Road Runner and the Daytona. Maybe it’s the orange and red paint vs the green. I appreciate the factory torsion bars with the upgraded steering box and a nicer set of shocks. Simple, time tested and proven. Thanks for a cool video. How often do you get to drive a Daytona, GTX and a Road Runner back to back to back. What a pleasure!

[@rocketresto]

Very lucky to be able to do what I do.

[@josipkirasic835]

That would be so cool👌

[@RyanThompson-u8j]

Great information! I had ordered the Magnum Force for my 74 Challenger but.....through a quirk of fate, it took over 6 months to finally get the thing shipped and I decided that they were having too many issues getting it delivered, I canceled my order and got my $ back! I already had the Borgerson (sp?) steering box on it and (in my opinion) it seemed a whole lot tighter and more responsive than the original box. I will stick with it as I am happy with it. But your video has me convinced that I don't need a tubular front suspension. Too little bang for the bucks...

[@rocketresto]

Boy you dodged a bullet!

[@brianz426]

Thank you for taking the time to do this.

[@idaholineman5788]

Great video love the long format. Great idea for a video..something not a lot of channels would be able to pull off. Well done Tom!

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching! Gathering up parts now to ditch the magnum force stuff.

[@kb9oak749]

I'd say sticking with the original design with upgraded materials would be the way to go. These cars are so valuable now I wouldn't do anything that can't be undone and certainly wouldn't do anything that compromised the engineering or could potentially damage the car over time. These were never intended to take on Laguna Seca or Mid Ohio road courses.

[@rocketresto]

Yep

[@ryan_isherwood]

Great video. People get caught up thinking they need all this aftermarket crap. You just don’t. It’s usually all poorly engineered.

[@rocketresto]

Some good stuff out there but can say with confidence that the Magnum Force stuff is not.

[@JonStein-mu5eb]

Test drives are always necessary and they are entertaining to watch, keep the car reviews coming.

[@rocketresto]

Will see what we can do, has to be something interesting people will watch.

[@JonStein-mu5eb]

@@rocketresto just be yourself and you should be fine.

[@JohnSmith-ml5dn]

Do people wanna see cars doing what they were designed to do and some guy talking about them or just some guy standing in a car park talking about them, gee I wonder🤔

[@JonStein-mu5eb]

@@JohnSmith-ml5dn are you just being sarcastic because that's all you know or were you trying to be funny?

[@rocketresto]

@@JonStein-mu5ebI’m not following either

[@richardtayter3762]

GREAT video! I called that one right away as soon as you mentioned "coilovers" watching the last video about the inner fender shock mounts not designed to support the suspension loads. I seem to recall (Graveyard Cars had an episode about installing the kit...) that the Force kit also required some cutting and hacking to install. Hopefully it won't be too serious to un-F that stuff, just be prepared. lol

[@rocketresto]

Reason Graveyard carz all of a sudden stopped using those kits…

[@tulagi1]

The bump steer in the GTX probably attributable to the SPC adjustable upper control arms. As you adjust the arms during alignment, you also change the arm length, which changes the changes geometry, and could be the cause of some bump steer.

[@leonardhirtle3645]

Thank goodness that you’re going to put the roadrunner front end back to stock. Did you see how far back the front wheels are in the wheel wells? It ain’t right.

[@rocketresto]

Ya it’s not good in any way.

[@debbiebermudez5890]

Mr. B. Here ! 🍩☕️👍👀😎. I was in high school when the two 1969 for me I enjoy the way they were built ( stock ) ! As a old driver change is not at the top of the list . Very cool cars at your shop . 🍩☕️👀😎👍 very informative.

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching!

[@richjordan9375]

Really nice video and comparison. but KYB shocks? Maybe they're different now but the two Mopars (and in fact any car that used them) that I know of that had them in the '80s-'90s went from a little bit wallowy (from worn out OEM shocks) to riding like an unloaded HD truck. You felt every expansion joint and pebble you ran over, amplified. Bilsteins though.... my friend who put together a 'road/handlng' Satellite with > 1" torsion bars (I remember 1.03" but may be wrong) and Bilsteins, while firm, was not uncomfortable at all. It had big anti-sway bars too. Handled and cornered great! I

[@rocketresto]

Bilstiens are definitely a better option but also 3x as much to buy them.

[@richjordan9375]

@@rocketresto I know, I've priced them, but the 1980s KYBs I had experience with were like installing a steel rod in the suspension. I know they extended and compressed but you sure couldn't feel it... like I said, maybe what they make now is different/better.

[@benjaminkadron]

Interesting video. I'm building up my duster for more handling stuff (autocross/road racing) and I'm going closer to the GTX, I will have bigger torsion bars, adjustable UCAs and likely the Borgeson box but the overall geometry of these is actually great from the factory. I worked with a fellow engineer to do a computer simulation of stock and modified geometry and there isn't much that I'm actually going to need to change. the big things are modern alignment specs to go with the tires you are running and spring/shocks to fit the driving you plan to do. But that is outlined in the mopar performance handbooks for racing so that isn't something new, and the mopar engineers were well aware of it.

[@davidjones5729]

Very interesting video. I have an aftermarket front suspension in my 70 Challenger. It's a Control Freak which is a Reilly Motorsports knock-off. The car corners very well and much better than stock. The downside is it's very noisy and ride is very stiff even with the Viking coilovers at their most comfortable setting. If had to do it over again I would have left the stock k-frame/torsion bars and just gone with a firm feel steering box and perhaps some tubular control arms. Very similar to your findings!

[@rocketresto]

Would have been cool to have some other set ups to try.

[@trojan440]

Why put all that money out for modern tubular stuff on a car that basically is a weekend driver . Mopar in the day had a great suspension. Good video Tom.

[@rocketresto]

You aren’t wrong.

[@bluesmoke218]

That’s the thing, I don’t think people are realistic with how they are gonna use their cars. A lot of people dump a ton of money into the car then never drive them or baby the hell out of them. Many folks could get by with refurbished stock stuff.

[@avman1339]

Re: the 69 GTX. I have a 70 Roadrunner w/the same Upper Control Arms which are SPC-brand fully adjustable. They don't require the "cam (eccentric) washer". Everything else is QA-1 including the K-member. I also switched to power steering and used the Borgeson box w/GM 2 style pump. Very happy w/how it all works, looks, fits, and integrates.

[@rocketresto]

Had trouble aligning the front end with those UCA's but maybe we did it wrong.

[@DeltatechActual]

the popping on turns and reverse sounds like a locker engaging.

[@rocketresto]

It was coming from the front. Lockers do sound like that but wasn’t coming from the back.

[@BarnyardNewton]

Everybody complains about the Mopar torsion bar suspension (Uncle Tony), but did you know that the fastest cornering race cars in the world use torsion bars? Yes, that’s right….. Formula 1 cars use torsion bars! No coil springs! No traditional shock absorbers! Torsion bars❤

[@williamdozier5190]

and they weight way less than a normal auto, and the tires are twice as wide, they dont need shocks

[@craigpolinski8955]

Uncle Tony's Garage is pro OEM Mopar torsion bar suspension.

[@craigpolinski8955]

OEM torsion bars and semi elliptical leaf springs for the win!❤ No traction bars either. Sema and modern nascar 👎

[@dantupper1784]

Plus the torsion bar front suspension is lower in the chassis than coilover. Lower center of gravity=better handling

[@rennkafer13]

@@williamdozier5190 Incorrect. All springs have a natural frequency, including torsion bars. You can see this in any car with bad shocks as they porpoise down the road after a bump. Shocks dampen that (hence the proper name for them is dampers). F1 cars are no different...

[@BobWeber-tk6hi]

That screw at 8:02 looks like a screw from the choke on the edelbrock carb

[@Nicksvintageiron]

Great comparison. I've been curious on this topic along with the QA1 stuff since so many people are pushing them but I can't justify spending the money

[@rocketresto]

Have heard the QA1 stuff is better but saying that we put a tubular k member in a 71 Challenger resto mod in the shop (392 modern Hemi) and the k member flexes when you steer the car, visibly flexes. That’s no good.

[@Nicksvintageiron]

@rocketresto it seems like everyone praises it but then again they are replacing worn out 50 year old parts so it's always going to be an improvement. I just went with oem style for my charger. Hopefully it works out

[@waynescott9218]

Look forward to seeing you return the 71 RR to factory suspension!

[@rocketresto]

Happening soon

[@waynescott9218]

@@rocketresto Great! Not sure how you feel about LCA beef up plates that so many companies have made for extra rigidity but for $50 or less and some welding they appear to be a good addition.

[@andrewkelly3424]

fantastic video tom.love all your content.very informative and fascinating mate...keep them coming

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching!

[@ProjectFairmont]

I have a ‘66 Mustang with complete TCI front and (rear). It’s good, since it has proper geometry, and the “cradle” holds the coil-over, not the shock tower. I never liked the coil-over arrangement on a Fox/Sn95/ New Edge Mustangs, as it takes the spot of the strut. Normally that would not be bad, but the weight bearing coil on Fox body is normally held by the K-member which is which is held in place by boxed unibody extensions.

[@4339jk]

I was fooled once and bought 2 different cans of HEMI orange, VHT and Dupli-color thinking like you did on the GTX engine, turns out the engine was painted chevy red/orange...

[@gregorykern9679]

While I respect your contributions, what you said about the Borgeson units isn't correct. You don't need to modify the steering column to use it. It works with the Saginaw pump. The response is MUCH better than any factory unit, better than any Firm Feel unit because every Mopar steering box is a design dating back to the late 50s. They all have a degree of on center free play that only feels worse when you step up to stage 2 or 3. Alignment matters more in terms of "darty" steering response. Toe in or out will surely make the car respond well or in a weird manner. Magnum Farce sucks. Their engineering is crap, the owner looks like an elderly former roadie for Quiet Riot or some other 80s hair band.

[@TomTerrific-vm3qg]

Mopar power steering is overboosted (unless you like steering with one pinkie finger). It tranferred no road feel. A manual steering box was available on the six cylinders. That unit transferred road feel. It might work on a small block, but on a big block it might require "armstrong steering". The AC was added by previous owner. Trace the wiring from the compressor. The AC installation may have never been completed.

[@southjerseyjim5049]

Is not the main reason for using Moog Problem Solver bushings is that they are offset to move the ball joint rearward to attain positive CASTER. Chrysler went with negative caster to reduce steering effort at the expense of handling. Achieving 2 to 3 degrees of positive caster is the goal. Am I wrong?

[@rocketresto]

You are correct, believe I misspoke in the video.

[@haydenrichardp3712]

I don’t think that RR suspension is for a daily or weekend driver. As you noted it doesn’t have splash shields but also the steering rod ends don’t have boot covers which looked very dry which will result in accelerated wear causing loose steering. The suspension is probably more for racing.

[@rocketresto]

It’s just poorly designed, engineered and doesn’t fix any sort of problems.

[@hansnordstrom2373]

The willwood calipers do not have any dust boot just a singel o ring seal for the piston . Do you get brake pads at your local parts store to wilwood brakes ? Do you thrust a aftermarket steering nuckle ? Do jou need four wheel diskbrakes on a Street car ? Is this junk tested on a wheelstanding 426 hemi b body on the strip ?

[@rocketresto]

@@hansnordstrom2373 ya not meant for the street which is ridiculous.

[@beljames1563]

Informative and useful. Good video. And who doesnt love a b body with a big block.

[@rocketresto]

Especially three in a row! Thanks for watching.

[@38shaun]

Great vid Tom. I guess when you reinvent the wheel, you can get flat spots in not copying it? I’ve used some Hotchkis tie rod parts in a track car. They were beefier, but didn’t notice any difference.

[@rocketresto]

You can make a lot of improvement keeping the t bars. Stiffening the suspension/body can make a big difference.

[@BigPaulsgarage-v9p]

I am building a 72 Satellite right now. Planning on full QA1 front and rear suspension. QA1 suggests Wilwood brakes. What are some copmparible or even better brakes then Wilwood? My experience with Wilwood is not great. Installed rear disc brakes on an 8 3/4" axle. Used the internal drum style parking brake a few times to stop the car when pushing it around in the shop. The drum brake shoe lining destroyed themselves and scored up the drum inside the rotor too.

[@rocketresto]

On pretty much every car we modify in the shop we run a 73 to 76 a body disc brakes set up with the caliper adapters to run 12 inch rotors look at Dr. diff he has great stuff for this including rear disc brake set ups

[@rennkafer13]

I ran all the numbers on pretty much every setup available up to the 14" Willwoods with 4 piston calipers. The setup with the best brake torque... stock Mopar 11.75" from FMJ cars (which is I think what Tom is recommending). For track use the larger rotors will get you better heat rejection, but for street or autocross use, the factory did a great job and it's a bolt on.

[@ThePaulv12]

What I'd like, on say a Hemi conversion car into an A body is torsion bars, but a tubular 'K' frame with a power rack on the front of the subframe so you can run a full length oil pan unimpeded by a bulky K frame, drag link, idler and pitman arms. I have no problems with torsion bars but the drag link combined with the K frame is a headache for everything you want to do under there from headers to oiling for track and handling improvements. The limitations of the car are quickly found if you're a proper hard charger as the Brits would say LOL. I can't see the point of a rack if it stays in a similar position as stock steering. The amount of money spent not being equal to the improvements gained. Stock power steering pretty good - one gets used to it and we like it like that but if we're going to a rack what is the point of putting it in the same position freeing up some space but making another space worse? Also there's also the undesirable effect of taking away the character of the car, which for a true Mopar nut is taking away what they're all about. Also, offset upper control arm bushes allow caster and camber, not one at the expense of the other which invariably occurs as you increase negative camber. I used them to great effect but it took maybe 11 alignments to sort out the handling and playing with the position of the bushes. You don't have to install them the exact way you might think. In the end with aftermarket torsion bars and sway bar (and many other upgrades) the stub axle assembly started to flex, which was actually good and bad; good because it was showing that stock based Mopar front suspension can handle really well, bad because there were no brakes on the first brake application.

[@joedee768]

Thanks for sharing, i was wondering myself on which way to go with my 400ci 72 Charger SE steering box starting to leak. Great input on what to decide for! Feel firm, firm feel!

[@rocketresto]

Borgeson is a decent option but personally I like to keep it close to stock.

[@davidetchellsetchells4692]

Here's what's cool about the factory torsion bar suspension, it's infinitely adjustable! Hardly any other suspension ( even now) is that adjustable. Caster, camber, ride height, and toe. And you can adjust the spring rate as well! I have never had a problem with this suspension, and they handle like a dream! ( properly set up that is) the aftermarket is a downgrade unless you do a heidt k member and also replace the rear doing a back half with subframe connectors. Now, yo can improve the front with spindles for big brakes, although mopar actually made factory 6 piston calipers for satteites that are fantastic! Also tubular a arms and boxed Lower arms are a great tuning trick for auto cross and any spirited driving.

[@benjaminkadron]

You don't have a part number for those 6 piston calipers do you? Never heard of them.

[@mackaman1964]

I put a borgeson steering box in our 73 charger and it’s the best money I’ve spent on the front end, steers great doesn’t wonder all over the road can’t say enough about it

[@rocketresto]

Have had good luck with them as well.

[@alanmar5511]

Great video. I agree. Keep it stock. If I wanted a modern feel. I’ll drive my Prius.

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching!

[@richvandervoort2950]

What size torsion bars are you going to put on the Road Runner? I would think a 1 inch bar with the Bilstein shocks might be a good combo.

[@rocketresto]

Probably will go with the Bilstiens however, I like just running a stock set of torsion bars with a swaybar. My dad is getting older and want the better ride. Ultimate handling is not what we are going for.

[@shaftmasterlathes]

Good comparison, I did all bushings, rubber not urethane, qa1 uppers boxed the lowers rear Hotchkis sway bar added BFGs. Drove the car for a year or two. Got a deal on new Hotchkis torsion bars and was impressed going through dips and to Stops and cornering. Next prolly FF box and Discs, my drums grab and need to see what's going on in there. Thanks.

[@rocketresto]

Stiffening helps a lot in handling on these cars.

[@donthompson2188]

The squeak is most likely the spherical joints. I would use those on the street unless you are into lots of maintenance.

[@dinadaughtry8993]

Absolutely agree, front ends on cars should be torsion bars and the trucks and jeeps should have leaf springs if they are 4wheel drive none of what they are doing with the new jeeps,a 96TJ put me in the ICU for a good while because of the coil spring suspension is total BS and any jeep made after 1995 that doesn't have leaf springs should be scrapped or put leaf springs under it unless you just like having lots of broken bones and hospital food, just my opinion based on facts when mine decided to spit out the rear end and drop the body on the tires on the passenger side when I was going down the road at 55-60 miles per hour and start flipping until some trees in someones backyard stopped it

[@rocketresto]

T bars all the way

[@SypherF]

what a beautiful trio of machines!

[@rocketresto]

Was very fun driving them back to back

[@colubrinedeucecreative]

Really cool and helpful video! Thanks for bringing us a long. Awesome to find out about the Borgeson set up. Wild to think they are on Cherokees too. Hope you get those issues polished out of the cuda, super annoying. Prolly time for a rebuild on that PS pump, and that breaking noise on the right rear sounds like one of the rear drum break pads don't have the spring on exactly right. Problem is that uneven breaking will wear out the mounts unevenly over time and make the rear axle further forward to the right too. Might notice it if you go over a bump and rear end wants to move to the right on you seemingly. It starts out pretty subtle though. All that dash squeeking was driving me insane, not sure I know an answer for that. I might take everything apart and either add shims of thin vinyl, like the slide pads or not sure if spray silicone would work for very long.

[@rocketresto]

Going to go back to stock on the front end on the 71 RR, just don’t trust it.

[@moparts52]

I do fully agree love torchon bar stock ride is fine and magnum force is crazy expensive doesn't fit great and the shock tower mount flex the body but will say the q 1 system is really nice fixed alot of that and the ride is great and if you do track days alot more adjustment but for street stock is way more than fine

[@rocketresto]

I would love to try a QA one to compare against but just have heard so much bad stuff about magnum force, and this really reinforces what I have been told

[@rennkafer13]

@@rocketresto I've watched video of the QA1 being run on track with the camera pointed at the front suspension. I'd heard that they didn't have much travel and this showed it pretty clearly, every time the car hit a bump mid-corner, the spring went solid. Car wasn't particularly low either... they're just lacking in travel. It's one of the reasons I stayed with torsion bars on my car.

[@HelpingHand-ic4wt]

Dartiness sounds like alignment. I was under an impression that the amount of power assist, lightness of steering, was determined by the strength of the spring there at the outlet of the power steering pump. IDK what FF does to make their box feel firm, maybe it's tolerances? I can't believe they designed it to mount to the body.. omg. Good on dad to put it right. I'm trying to figure a way of doing a bounce count in the video between the T bar cars and the coil one. It's that continuing bounce of a coil that makes them feel like a boat or on pogo-sticks, particularly McPherson strut type. T-bars tune that bounce out flat and fast.

[@rocketresto]

Could be alignment, Jamie aligned this car and got it as close as we could with the parts provided.

[@pcbullets8726]

Sounds like stock is the best way to go and cheaper. Expensive isn't always better.

[@rocketresto]

A lot of ways to improve from stock - Magnum Force is not the way to do it.

[@fpvtrucker129]

I won a lot of races in the 70's with a 69 gtx and the torsion bars are a big reason for that in oval track racing I went thru 3 69 Road Runners. But I wish I had one know.

[@rocketresto]

Lotta good cars got used up on the track

[@jerryfarmer5989]

Well what I have seen is when folks pop for the new, crisp and hot after market stuff, they have problems. Me good with the stock suspension as long as not running roundy rounds. Remember NHRA out lawed the torsion bars. Why? Because you can adjust them faster than anything. As well as the push button trans.

[@rocketresto]

In 1969 Petty actually had an adjusted in the car so he could adjust them during the race on demand, that was banned pretty quickly.

[@icetech6]

Wish i had done the offset bushings when i put my front end together.. will probably end up pulling the upper arms to do it still at some point.

[@rocketresto]

Really makes a huge difference.

[@anomamos9095]

The problem with stock torsion bar suspension is not the torsion bars. If you could get light weight control arms and spindles and good fully adjustable shocks the torsion bars suspension would be equal or even better as there would be less unsprung weight. You’d need a canterleaver suspension to equal it.

[@rocketresto]

T bars work great.

[@barryrussell4106]

I agree. Do you know if you can get a biggger rearward sump and pickup oil pan on the magnum force stuff? If so that would make it viable if you drove the car hard.

[@rocketresto]

Not sure on that one

[@SE-me2pt]

Main peeve is that every time someone ruins a vintage car with modern tech the first thing they do is try to sell their mistake.

[@rocketresto]

That happens remarkably often.

[@4339jk]

Borgeson gear is smaller but taller and if you get one from Bergman Auto Craft he alters the valve body. Also, I'm not sure if you buy from Borgeson directly you don't need to cut the steering shaft with his kit

[@rocketresto]

That is a huge advantage to the Borgeson box, lighter and more compact. Especially if you have headers it’s nice.

[@dartdude4084]

I just did a borg swap on a 67 B. Was 800$ but I had a Saginaw pump already.

[@MikeJBlues]

All very nice cars, I would go with the setup on the GTX for a driver. Best of both worlds. The 71 has stuff for a resto mod that never happened lol 😆. Daytona is too nice to drive and worth too much to vary from other then OEM no doubt. All nice for sure 👌

[@rocketresto]

Agree

[@stevenbean9706]

aftermarket suspension on any mopar the only aftermarket suspension id buy is shocks for the application adjustable shocks for drag racing or kyb adjustable for driving id never use factory shocks again . all factory components tube control arms look impressive but i do not like em

[@rocketresto]

Bilsteins do wonders to for ride and handling

[@ronaldrey8474]

Are you familiar with Birdsongs suspension pieces to improve stock suspension? (more camber etc...) Lol I just have power train but trying to find a roller.

[@rocketresto]

I don’t really follow his channel but yes know of him. He sets stuff up for circle track / road course which is not what we are going for here.

[@ronaldrey8474]

@@rocketresto really appreciate your follow up. I understand.

[@auteurfiddler8706]

I always wanted "Comp T/A"s of the 1980s, as opposed to the steel "Radial T/A" But for a 67 to 69 model year Mopar, I like the look of red lines. Types of Tires, oldest to newest: 1. Bias like ( 7.75 14) 2. Bias belted (Polyglas GT for example) 3. radial belted with steel or with fabric belts. Red lines with radial construction. Maybe the best of both worlds. But expensive. Both are offered. At the price, I think I would buy some low cost radial white walls and maybe paint them red. You can still order them in 75 series and maybe 70 series. I would bet more 69 GTX's and 68 Charger R/T's came with whitewalls than any other tire, so maybe just leave the sidewalls white.

[@rocketresto]

Like the look of those particular tires.

[@Komet163B]

I disagree with your statement that the core support on all Mopars left the factory with the front facing side painted black. I owned an original paint 1971 Challenger, that I bought in 1986. The car was unrestored. The entire core support front and back was painted the body color GB5 Bright Blue Metallic. There was NO black anywhere on the front of its core support..

[@rocketresto]

Some dark colors didn’t get it but they should have. If you car didn’t have it it was missed on the assembly line and was a mistake.

[@HelpingHand-ic4wt]

KYB shocks are "sharp". A fresh set can feel like walking on pebbles at low speeds. They start to make a positive, smoothing effect at higher speeds. I've heard Bilstiens are softer.

[@rocketresto]

They are a little stiff but sometimes the $500 for Bilstiens is a little hard to swallow. KYB’s are very affordable but you get what you pay for.

[@auteurfiddler8706]

I know more Negative camber helps handling, but it wears out tires in the inside. It is common on track events , meaning lots of money spent. So a couple of new race tires is to be expected sacrifice for a second a lap. The Mopar Bible basically advises the tires be straight up and down when the nose is lifted sightly up to simulate the wheel drop when accelerating hard, but this is only for drag racing. For a "cruise to the cruise night" or "take a long road trip" car I can't see any benefit to having more choices in camber. There is way more than you need already in our cars. I did quite a bit of tire damage when tried to do a driveway alignment to reduce the negative camber right before a road trip to a friend's wedding. After I got on the road, it pulled hard to one side and I realized I did it the opposite ( even more negative camber) and was down to belts showing after about 250 miles. I put on my spare and it was wearing pretty fast. I had to spend the morning of the wedding looking for a cheap tire already mounted, but the wedding was in the afternoon so I was on time.=. I did a correction at a truck stop and have not had to do it again, though I try to not put new good tires on the front of any car I aligned myself.

[@auteurfiddler8706]

27:57 How about the GTX needs more castor?

[@rennkafer13]

The issue isn't whether you can get enough camber, it's whether you can get enough camber AND caster. With stock suspension you can usually get one or the other. These cars were designed for the bias ply tires of 60 years ago, not modern performance radials. The correct alignment specs between the two are far different. Having worked professionally on both vintage race cars (mainly bias ply race tires), and similar vintage performance cars using modern radials, you want a bunch more camber and caster with modern tires. It's what they're designed for. As for your driveway alignment... bear in mind that camber on its own doesn't wear down tires fast, incorrect toe does though. And changing camber will affect the toe pretty dramatically. It's all a system, and every adjustment affects the others.

[@auteurfiddler8706]

@@rennkafer13 Well, that gives me something to think about. Any single one of castor, camber, and toe in will wear out tires even if the other two are perfect. There are pictures of the different patterns of bad wear that each of the three causes on every service manual. I always take a look at VW Beetles and dune buggies and they have bizarre looking Camber and I want to see which ones have bad wear. I ask the owners at cruise night. The ones that say it isn't a problem are the ones that trailer the cars.

[@rocketresto]

That’s why we use the offset upper control arm bushings to get a little more.

[@rennkafer13]

@auteurfiddler8706 ya, any of them will wear tires, but toe will do it the fastest in my experience. I've gotten 30-40k miles out of performance tires on cars with -2 degrees camber. I've seen harder non-performance tires down to cords on the inside in a few hundred miles on cars that were lowered that had a bunch of toe out.

[@bill90405]

You really need to test all three with the same tires. On the ‘71 maybe the coil-over setup transfers more harshness to the structure, since the structure wasn’t designed for that. My limited recollection is 5he 71-2 B bodies were kinda rattly generally compared to previous models. So for say 12k today? Save the $.

[@rocketresto]

They all had very similar all season radial TA type tires.

[@Mattisgarage]

Nice comparison. Stick with stock it is.

[@rocketresto]

Ways to upgrade from stock but ya stick with t bars!

[@Mattisgarage]

​@@rocketresto true. I have offset upper control arm bushings, white Kybs, reinforced lower control arms and 0.92" torsion bars under my small block 69 Satellite. Rides great for driver.

[@rocketresto]

@@Mattisgaragegreat set up, our only suggestion would be to try Bilsteins over the KYB’s.

[@Mattisgarage]

​@@rocketresto I have heard that they are great, have been thinking that too.

[@NuxDriver]

Love the colors in the conclusion part of the video. The 3 cars plus the 2 Imperials are beautiful. Then notice the colors on the modern cars in the background. 😴 What the heck is wrong with modern car color choices?

[@rocketresto]

They don’t make the colors like they use to.

[@robertspence831]

The stock stuff is pretty good. My '69 Hemi Roadrunner was a better driver than my 383 cars, but they were all pretty nice. Even my '66 Charger with the dreaded KYB shocks up front and Super Stock springs with the MP shocks in the back is a really nice road car. YMMV, of course....

[@rocketresto]

As long as everything is new and tight yep.

[@jeffhutchins7048]

Power steering always whines? Are you sure it's not a Phord? Maybe when you put in a similar suspension you get the problems?😊

[@rocketresto]

One of the many things annoying about a Ford :)

[@stevenbean9706]

herb mccandless would turn the torsion bars down to .700 they would flex and load up the car would squat and launch but never felt like it was launching as hard as it was according to what he said but numbers dont lie it works in a drag race set up put on factory for street use

[@rocketresto]

That’s a really small bar, some serious weight transfer is that weak of a bar!

[@toasteroven8588]

For some historical perspective on vintage Mopar handling, there is an in period (1969) road/track test done by Jacques Duval at Mont Tremblant race track. It's in French, but the automatic subtitle and translation features here on KZbin fix that. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJ2mnGiBpKh3fJofeature=shared Enjoy!

[@HelpingHand-ic4wt]

An idea for the next Rocket Test Labs- calculating the degree of rear axle pivot, in jounce mode, to the degree of body roll allowed by a rear sway bar. In the "Roadability And Handling" (September 1965) Volume 65 #09 MTSC training book, page 5 begins the discussion on rear axle geometry. When cornering, body roll puts weight on the outside wheels. At the rear wheel, the articulating shackle allows an amount of forward pull of the axle in jounce position (when weight is put on that side). This causes the rear wheels to point in the same direction as the fronts giving a caster effect thru the cornering. The question is, how limiting is a rear roll bar to this pivot of the rear axle in jounce position? Is there a perfect roll control ratio to axle pivot angle by changing sway bar thickness? A scale of sway bar thickness to axle pivot degree ratio, does anyone calculate one of those?

[@rocketresto]

We had a 67 Fury race car that was in the 24 hours of Lemons and we actually ended up taking the rear bar out, it just didn’t do a lot. Was a long wheel base car but personal experience.

[@kevinwestfall2803]

I own three A bodies. I HATE the way the factory torsion bars drive/ride. It’s terrible. They ride like 3/4 ton pickup. They jerk, dart and are unpredictable. I installed a tubular setup in my Scamp from Gerst 8 years ago who has since been bought out QA1. It has been the best money I’ve ever spent on that car. It handles, steers and rides like new car. Back then I was able to buy the kit from him with brakes for about half of what you can buy a kit from QA1 now. The upper coil mounts don’t go to the inner fender like a magnum force. The K member has coil mounts built into it. Like you said the systems and have the coil mounted to the inner fender are asking for problems. I’ve heard a lot of bad things about magnum force. I do think the cost of the new systems are ridiculous, but the correct suspension system will put the factory to shame. I’ll either make my own for the other cars or buy QA1 in pieces until I have a complete kit.

[@rocketresto]

Boy I couldn’t disagree more with you, I’ve road raced torsion bar Mopars on a road course and you can make them handle and ride great. We did a QA1 k member with bars in the 71 Challenger 6.4 Hemi restomod we did in the shop and with the fat front tires the k member visibly flexed when you turned the wheels 🥶 Magnum force is bottom of the barrel in quality.

[@kevinwestfall2803]

@@rocketresto I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I’ve driven/riden in hundreds of old Mopars and I’m Mopar guy all the way, but I have yet to ride in one that handles well with factory suspension. I’ve rebuilt the entire front end with moog parts on about 6 cars for marginal improvements. That is a good data point with the QA1 K member. I’ll think twice before I make that buy. That k member is a QA1 design not a Gerst design.

[@musclebone7875]

I love my stock suspension on my '68 impala

[@rocketresto]

Coil springs can have some issues

[@dndbeyond3443]

FYI - I think the offset UCAs give you more caster, not camber.

[@rocketresto]

Think you’re right 🤦‍♂️

[@rustypliers74]

Well looks like keeping my stock K member was a good idea

[@rocketresto]

You can still do a lot of improvement with a stock key. Member forgot to mention in the video that the 1971 Dodge Challenger resto mod we did with the modern hemi had a QA one member that flexed when you turned the car.

[@rustypliers74]

@@rocketresto 100%! I’m used to driving vehicles with torsion springs, and leaf springs. I’ll just get new control arms, better shocks, and new bushings and call her good.

[@charlesschultz658]

My 40 year old mopar soaks up road imperfections better then my ten year old cars

[@rocketresto]

Agree completely, torsion bars work

[@sandwichrob2852]

Awesome video, thank you 👏👏

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching!

[@joshuawalton8179]

What are your thoughts on adding plates to the lower control arms?

[@darwinchapmam6343]

I still believe the owner of that RR is going to regret the purchase. Someone removed any value the car once had.

[@rocketresto]

Don’t understand your comment. Yes to me that front end lowers the value of the car but it’s all very reversible and we are going to do that asap.

[@Oldjohn52]

I'm gonna say the GTX gives the best result.

[@rocketresto]

Watch and find out!

[@allanperryman388]

Thanks Tom

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching!

[@02shaded]

It was nice seeing someone trying to compare the set ups but lime u mentioned where they will really show difference is pushing them pretty hard like a parking lot road course and maybe a slalom with braking at the end n for shits n giggles u vs jamie😅

[@rocketresto]

Unfortunately don’t have a safe place to do that. Also worried about damaging the 71 with the coil overs set up like that.

[@DeadDodgeGarage]

I don’t think we’ll be doing the slalom with the Daytona, but I’m in

[@488ci]

I was thinking that those long runner intakes would be good for turbo's 🤔 Maybe 🤔

[@rocketresto]

Turbo slant 6!

[@marcandrade4156]

Yes the GM box is better...but Walter p was the guy at Buick..so....it's okay to get stuff from your parents house..when you need it 😊

[@rocketresto]

Ha

[@blueduster74]

I can tell you 20+ yrs of AutoX events and road course races I’ve seen, torsion bar cars win just as many events as coil over cars.

[@rocketresto]

Totally, coils aren’t that much of an advantage on an old Mopar if any at all.

[@DominatorGarage]

I’d really like to get my 71 Torino Gt riding much better, But that old suspension sucks to drive long distances. All of the old cars weren’t the best. A TKX is in the works for mine. The Borgeson steering I’ve had nothing but problems on my fairlane and everyone around me

[@rocketresto]

Interesting to hear the Ford’s have had problems. Other than how the steering column to box matches up (it’s really awkward how it goes together and causes some problems) have heard mostly good things about the boxes. Now some of the other stuff… the Borgeson idler arm was shaped wrong on the Gtx so it was hitting the torsion bar when turning.

[@DominatorGarage]

@@rocketresto the box gets in the way on fords, to a detrimental effect. can't run PS and 4 speed with headers on any ford, The stock PS units leak every 3 months after rebuilds. Borg unit has alot of overheating issues, sitting at idle for 5 minutes and will be at 240 degrees at fluid not touching Steering wheel. id rather go quick ratio manual at this point

[@ryanstuckey8677]

putting a tubular k and coil overs in my barracuda was the best thing ive done to the car. just don't use that mag force iv'e installed 3 of them and none of them were welded right

[@rocketresto]

I’ve heard other ones are better. magnum force

[@rocketresto]

Magnum force is not the answer

[@michaelstrafello7346]

The front bracket for the power steering is double the thickness of any gm I've seen

[@rocketresto]

That is a Borgeson piece and probably over kill

[@p90x1011]

Very interesting.

[@rocketresto]

Thanks for watching!

[@samiam5557]

Torsion bars are best in MOPAR land.

[@rocketresto]

Yep!

[@rebekahfrench5747]

Look at who is using torsion bar suspension these days.. like any spring system when they go bang everyone looks like a deer in the headlights..🤣🤣