An Unfiltered Conversation with Ludwig Ahgren | Money, Addiction, and Quitting YouTube

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Time Stamps:
0:00 - Intro
3:05 - Ludwig on Optimizing for Fulfillment & The Yard Podcast
11:52 - Ludwig’s Production Company, Losing Money and KZbinrs Quitting
17:17 - Are Drama KZbin Channels Ethical?
32:34 - Leaving Big Decisions Up To A Coin Flip
35:37 - Ludwig Dives Into His Different Income Streams
51:41 - Twitch vs KZbin: Which One Is Better?
59:12 - Ludwig on Gambling & Quitting
1:10:23 - How Ludwig Invests His Money
1:12:42 - What Is The Point Of More Money?
1:17:56 - Graham’s Shares His Artwork & Why He’s Been Painting (Pictures Included)
1:24:50 - Why Ludwig Wants To Open A Bakery
1:31:14 - Ludwig On Having Kids
1:33:37 - Ludwigs Goals For 2024
1:37:41 - Ludwigs Thoughts on xQc’s $100m Kick Deal
1:45:21 - Graham Warns Ludwig About His RISKY Business Structure
1:52:12 - Closing Thoughts
*Some of the links and other products that appear on this video are from companies which Graham Stephan will earn an affiliate commission or referral bonus. Graham Stephan is part of an affiliate network and receives compensation for sending traffic to partner sites. The content in this video is accurate as of the posting date. Some of the offers mentioned may no longer be available.

[@JackSather]

I like that ludwig grabs the mic while talking LIKE he's doing a Mogul Mail 😂

[@lukivan8]

Bro thinks he is mogul mail... Never will get there

[@SquircleYT]

I don’t want to disparage Graham. He’s obviously very successful, but I couldn’t view life the way he does. Always chasing money just for the sake of making money feels lifeless. He did say he’s getting into art, but I don’t think that would be enough for me. Money means nothing when you’re gone. If it’s all you leave behind it’s like you left nothing at all.

[@smartkaboose3806]

Totally agree, although if you have a big family that you leave money to, it's not nothing. But if you have no relationships with that family, I totally agree

[@mihaimaracine5373]

Building things with money and giving people jobs and hopes / helping the ones around you is nice and some people want to build something and have a big legacy

[@kaison12205]

It’s ego deep down even what the other people replying are saying it’s all ego

[@SamKling]

Can we get a Ludwig vs Mogul Mail debate on the pod? Seems like they are always hating on each other

[@Eazy_Bruh]

💀

[@Eazy_Bruh]

💀

[@DumbHashtag]

Frrr

[@demontoaster5670]

Cody Ko and Noel would be a dream team on this show

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Yeah!

[@CartierCasey]

Facts

[@Vindico0711]

Hell yeah baby. Get the Tiny Penis Gang here LES GOOOOO!!🗣🗣🗣

[@notavailable637]

this feels like a normal dude talking with reddit wallstreetbets mods.

[@xboxman5ify]

i actually think ludwig’s idea of just flipping a coin when you can’t decide which option is better is a great idea. don’t get me wrong, use all the facts and knowledge you possibly can to make the better choice, but if you’re unable to figure out which choice is better, simply flipping a coin and leaving it up to chance is a good idea. i’ve also heard flipping a coin on something can show you what you truly feel if you’re excited or disappointed when it lands.

[@BarginsGalore]

which i think is what ludwig did. he flipped a coin and it landed on twitch and he used the companies reaction to decide where to go

[@BortSamsung]

I wonder if he picked this up playing poker, it's actually not uncommon in the modern game for players to randomize some decisions via coinflip or RNG.

[@doddy7119]

Ludwig’s idea is a stretch, people have been doing this for centuries. Is this your first time coming across this concept? I know this sounds condescending, but I don’t intend it that way.

[@xboxman5ify]

@@doddy7119 no shit sherlock. this guy really thinks he’s a genius because he knows the idea of flipping a coin wasn’t invented in 2020. bravo Einstein. yes every human being with a functioning brain knows this concept wasn’t invented by Ludwig. you need to spend less time online and more time in real life.

[@xboxman5ify]

@@BarginsGalore i think that was more of an accident. when the coin decided twitch he decided to go with twitch, but when he told youtube he was going with twitch they made him a final offer which changed his mind.

[@chughin]

Lud getting his crocs sponsorship in the first 2 mins. The goat

[@calebflintosh2815]

Not to mention the perfect red bull product placement.

[@holdenpierce1959]

in regards to the workers coop debate; the standard model is a dictatorship, while the coop allows for a system of checks and balances. the thing about a dictatorship is it’s the perfect system when the dictator is good, but the worst system if they dictator is bad. any “what if” is just trying to find improbable problems before they exist, never a reason not to do something.

[@BarginsGalore]

yeah it the opposite of what graham said. the standard model is way more high risk high reward because a ceo with a big vision can easily have a terrible vision that ruins the company but the general workforce knows what will continually marginally improve the company

[@okaythx]

THIS !!!! Another great thing about this too is that when the workers have meaningful ownership of the company then they're more incentivized to want the company as a whole to flourish. When you're a salaried employee with no meaningful shares in the company there's no reason to work any harder to make the business grow than what you have to do in your contract. We've seen this meaningfully during COVID when millions of employees got major salary cuts despite the companies being even more profitable than they've ever been. Why would you ever want to work above and beyond what you are required to do if you're unsure of the return that it brings you besides a pat on the back from your boss? If you have legitimate ownership of the company, however, then that means that there's guaranteed benefits to you directly when the company grows, meaning that you'll want to work even harder to keep things growing!

[@MrJoosebawkz]

they _have_ to think that coops are riskier / worse overall systems. There are so many people who are in positions of power but like to think they're good people working towards a more just world, thte justification that the standard model is just "objectively better for everybody" in the company gives them a moral justification to not give up control over their company. I don't think you're exactly a bad person if you started a company and didn't make it into a coop but there definitely is a psychological reason for needing to think the standard model is actually morally and practically better when it doesn't really make sense

[@johnwinchester6934]

Somebody please explain hpw workers enter and leave the company??? Do you let them buy in to the company at a lower percentage than others? 4% instead of everyone else at 10%? If yes, do they now have the voting power less than the other shareholders/employees?

[@MrJoosebawkz]

@@johnwinchester6934 they don't buy in to the company. Nobody but ludwig or the employees could tell you how they handle routine stuff like this. Why would the youtube comments know? You have a better chance coming to a general idea how it works by actually researching worker coops and what other established worker coops do

[@shansen6969]

Love how Ludwig defended his pland to convert the business to a COOP, its obvious how different the mentalities are between Ludwig and Graham, Ludwig is in it to help his friends and employees, yeah there may be some risks, but if it succeeds it will benefit the actual people who did the work. Where as Graham seems like tha classic ubercapitalist. There is a reason for Ludwigs succes, and among them is definetly helping the people around him.

[@likwidsun2303]

I agree with everything you said about Ludwig. I think Graham cares about his employees, he's just uber-practical. Graham had some difficult questions Ludwig might have a hard time dealing with down the road, or maybe not. But they were important to consider. The world thrives because both perspectives exist, and have merit. Pragmatists would strangle society with structure, and dreamers would let it unravel in unbound chaos. Together, each of us contains some variation of both, and we're better for it, as individuals, and in congregate. There's more than one way to make a cake. Let everyone make cake!

[@bridgerparker4275]

@@likwidsun2303 I agree that the balance is an important factor of the sustainability of the world, however I would argue that Ludwig's approach is already balanced. He doesn't have unbridled chaos in his company, he just has high incentive structures built in and less profit consolidation towards the top. While this approach isn't ideal to the 'business world' that is largely only due to the fact most business owners view their entity through the eyes of the market rather than a more pragmatic view of a sustainable business. We have adopted a false ideology that growth is the only way to survive, and while growth is borderline inevitable to any business that is successful enough, I think Ludwig strikes a great balance between growing towards larger goals and a better business while still maintaining a pragmatic view and giving dividends to those involved. I think the idea of Graham being "uber-practical" is not entirely accurate, he is profit driven which in today's society is viewed as the standard for businesses, Ludwig is far more practical in his view of business. "of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas", he is not concerned in the right way to run a business for growth and profit like Graham is, he cares about the practical aspects of creating products that the consumer enjoys and giving back to those that contribute to said products.

[@simonji2940]

Graham cares about what is good business without considering what is actually morally correct, like the whole system of landlords and infrastructure investing is the biggest reason for high costs of living and is straight up scalping, but Graham doesnt even consider that since its not business smart to adapt to that huge moral factor.

[@themousemagician9535]

@@likwidsun2303such a great worldview to have! Beautifully said fam

[@odelacruz93]

Yea but its a flawed system early on since liquidity is used for growth. I think members could be incentivized to quit, cash out, and work else where on higher speculative valuations. Not everyone works based on loyalty. Money talks.

[@Cannabian]

I gained a ton of respect for Ludwig. The whole realizing early on there is such a thing as enough money. I chase money based on what I want, If I need more I'll figure it out and have. If not I'll get a new hobby or spend more time outside or with friends. There isn't any amount of money that can replace genuine experience, that's why the uber rich try so hard to be elaborate and do crazy things... they hope it'll equate to something special. It never does.

[@ekathleen28]

Google says: When employees leave the coop, their accounts are paid out them according to the terms of the plan. It may take several years before members get their full payout. Spreading out payments in this way reduces the strain on the coop, which must raise funds to buy out the capital owed to exiting members. (I had to look it up because I figured there was more to it. Hope you all can discuss this more after Lud sees it in operation and can tell you more about it.)

[@aqua47flawless43]

It so funny how he doesn't even really understand how it'll work and just assumes it won't be an issue, but yea that sounds ridiculous, if someone quits everyone else gets messed up it makes everyone lose percentage

[@simonji2940]

Remeber that coops arent one thing, but simply an idea that can be executed in infinite ways.

[@shaicontrol]

his role at offbrand is to just be Ludwig, i'm sure he has people he trusts dealing with the in and outs of how the coop works @@aqua47flawless43

[@DayZilya]

Yo the paintings are insane! So happy you found out that you can do that!

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Thank you so much.

[@shawnhitt5312]

Start doing painting videos! On another channel haha

[@LeonLush]

good shit gentlemen, always appreciate real conversations like this that give some valuable insight into the operations behind some of the internets biggest names

[@Capitalset]

Ludwig is very articulate. Loved this pod.

[@humphrey]

This was an awesome convo, thanks Graham, Jack, and Lud! Loved the Phase 1 vs Phase 2 part of life, and Lud's thoughts on money and mindset.

[@Eazy_Bruh]

Wow this just made me have SO MUCH more respect for Ludwig.

[@beauCM]

These guys have such a different perspective on money and influence than ludwig. makes for an interesting convo but they seem flabbergasted by his approach

[@simonji2940]

They are the definition of a capitalist, being ignorant of the massive harm they do because they think "number go up" is all that matters without caring about the people under them suffering thanks to them.

[@chockey4288]

Idea man vs numbers guy

[@StationS3BO]

I’m here for the well put questions and hearing the intricacies. GREAT CONTENT once again💯

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Thank you!

[@KillerTacos54]

I’m loving these longer podcast episodes so much, especially when the guests are this good! Dr K and Ludwig!?! Sheeeesh

[@Bingobangoer]

i feel like Graham is in a different world when it comes to the way in which they view life and money.

[@grantbaker86]

Ya think? 😂

[@MandeeLiberty]

Totally. The phase 1 vs phase 2 conversion was really interesting. It also shows how easy it is to fall into hustle culture and never get out.

[@psychomikeo123]

I think he also leans aggressively capitalist, because Ludwig keeps insisting a co-op is viable and Graham is saying “well what about smaller companies” etc etc Hasan who hangs with Ludwig has done co-ops for years Edit: It’s April 2024, and Hasan went on stream again to call people who think he doesn’t have a cooperative dumb, so he definitely still does despite replies in here

[@taylifts]

I hope my bf loves me the way Graham loves real estate

[@cassielee3874]

LMAO@@taylifts

[@SirRipster]

Ludwig is such an inspirational person. His level head and ability to think about what he wants in the world is awesome to see on display

[@TheNerdArmory]

15:15 A strong moral compass. It's really that simple. Lud has a really strong compass and doesn't think he's above others, he does "right".

[@B0H0]

Those paintings are amazing! I love the paint dripping with the person holding the light bulb.

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Thank you!

[@sakaraist]

I love how ludwigs view on life is just to do cool shit with his friends and the people and things he cares about. He made his bag, no point wasting your life at that point pulling your hair out.

[@chockey4288]

He is very inspirational, would like to be similar someday

[@richreid45]

Been following Graham for years, so happy to see him picking up some new hobbies. Love the artwork and great pod!

[@chrisbaker2669]

I love the question of phase 2 of money of what do you want from your money other than just more money it is a great question for rich people to answer.

[@Mexatron_Senpai]

My worlds colliding in atoms I needed more motivation to stay consistent!!! Thank you guys !! And wtf Graham that art is amazing

[@CartierCasey]

Would love to see Cody Ko on the Podcast

[@uwannadance1971]

Now, this is looking like a good one! Starting off with fun convo about height, hair and crocs.

[@nikhilrajput8076]

I love watching ludwig, so happy he is on the podcast

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Enjoy!

[@guniogun7524]

Stanz once mentioned the Mogul Cinematic Universe, I would have loved to hear about that

[@thisnotdog]

you guys are just pumping out bangers jesus

[@pokeman500]

Started watching after some Caleb Hammer and MoneyGuy crossovers, been loving the guests ever since. Great job guys!

[@localbird]

It's so refreshing to hear someone talk so candid about the longevity of a career online

[@ColombianLNP]

Dude im definitely impressed by the paintings graham! Cheers from your biggest fan in Colombia amigos!

[@CartierCasey]

You should get Theo Von on the podcast

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Would love that!!

[@JakeDaaGreat]

That would be a great pod!

[@AstroPopper]

@@TheIcedCoffeeHourwould be his worst cast, yall are horrible

[@Shadowmox56]

theo maybe has conflicting opinions on money & capital in general

[@joshb4286]

Theo would be so great

[@yaseensaifullah8222]

Ludwig really believes in his workers coop. I have never seen him push back on something before.

[@simonji2940]

Even if its not as good economically; its still a moral good, which makes me respect him so so much.

[@ProtoxxGaming]

Love me a good conversation with Ludwig

[@iamfishmind]

I swear Ludwig is always so insightful, very inspiring guy

[@crownly01]

i love how Ludiwg defended his idea of a workers coop, Grahams points were valid, but was obvious he was pushing a certain viewpoint

[@simonji2940]

Grahams points also ignore how its simply the morally correct thing to give workers control over something they spend most of their awake hours on. Like no one will ever agree to people saying "this is my country i created it so i get to do whatever i want with it".

[@saintceres]

Love Lud for willing to talk about being fulfilled beyond money

[@tdot8146]

U can tell Ludwig’s pursuit isn’t financial while the other 2 guys are

[@JuanOnJuann]

Ludwig seems like the most normal streamer that hasn’t let money and fame change him.

[@aiadvantage]

Love the pod. Lud is a great guest too

[@cigamspargle]

I love that he came in with that sweater.

[@newman716ET]

I love Ludwig so this was a pleasant surprise for me. Well done guys!

[@AssailantLF]

3:52 Jack: "Why do you make your patreon numbers public?" Lud: "Why would I not?" Jack: "Because others prefer to keep it private" Wow, what a stupid reason to do something, just because other people do it.

[@green.rabite]

Such great insights, great episode Jack & Graham!

[@TheZiZaZo]

Ludwig giving genuine good hair advice to the bros was really wholesome. Lots of respect for Lud from this interview

[@slowestjabroni]

amazing interview. i do feel bad about my own achievements now but, what else would ya expect from this type of content.

[@Fa5rdin]

He is correct, that's the right way to say Bidet in french!

[@taylifts]

Props to your editor for "the Ludwig podcast" lol

[@maleahdarch4990]

Lud's sweater is so good I need it

[@Vexlich]

Found this on recommended, love Lud sm he keeps it real as a CC which is a rarity 🤍 great podcast & feature

[@sananapee]

Graham, random but are going to see the eclipse in April? You should make time for it!

[@TheKelsonmorris]

Graham, congratulations on the artwork and getting out of your shell

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Thanks so much, I really appreciate it!

[@PlatypusLLC]

Great episode!

[@NoChillCC]

Love this pairing

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Thanks for watching!

[@MushieDude]

Making money can be just as addicting as gambling if it’s making you miss out on more important things in life. If you can’t go for a walk without calculating how much money you are losing then I think you need to reevaluate things a bit.

[@fothrmuckr]

Glad to see him back on!

[@timmoe3370]

Niceeeee luv dis channel

[@NoahErikkson]

jack I also have fine hair, blowdry it which will add volume then use a spray molding matte texture spray

[@Ekaterinallina]

Great conversation. The ending was awkward :)) I feel like Ludwig was excited to share about coop but instead felt pushed down……

[@peyoteplante]

grahams dad is an animator?? as an animator, graham should bring his pops on the podcast. would love to see it

[@Bl4keW]

I wish the algorithm brought me this yesterday 😭 ill be back after work

[@hailey9028]

I think the coop idea is good. I used to work for publix which is a private grocery store for about 5 years. There is a board that does day to day things that the average employee doesn’t even think about. But maybe is different than Ludwig is they give you the opportunity to buy shares but only after working like 100 hours in the year I think. But you don’t automatically get the shares but you have to buy in. But once you quit like I have you still get to have ur shares and get to vote who’s on board and what not.

[@simonji2940]

A lot of cooperatives go with the voted in board routes, almost like electing a party to rule. Often with saveguards like workers being able to vote to veto questionable decisions

[@yelnatsch517]

41:50 it’s not even a guy in a board room. People would be surprised how it works. For large companies, six figure ads are literally approved by a middle manager. It doesn’t even make it up the chain. The paperwork might make it up the chain, but they won’t even know where the money is actually going. This is why social media is so lucrative for content creators. When large companies finally figure out they are losing more money than they are making, social media creators will start making a lot less money.

[@thebrewsky26]

I'm a basic swipe buyer with mid-severe crohns disease, it genuinely makes a huge difference, if you have IBS and don't have a bidet I can give a full send on the cheaper $50 one. It is easily worth double that for not feeling gross or raw after the fifth plus trip to bathroom in a morning, especially if you are trying to be appealing to a romantic partner. The saving on toilet paper is nice too. Genuinely get any bidet if you have chronic bubble gut, any bidet, this is a good one for the price.

[@DanielBlak]

On Jack's point about penguinz0's power - that girl was relatively unknown before that scandal took off. His attention drew a hate mob but it also like 10xd her followership.

[@itsKeoniii]

1:10:40 the face they make when Ludwig says 3.21% is pretty good returns on 4 years 😭😭

[@danielj3010]

Your artwork is killerr!!

[@sandywave4971]

I’m laughing so hard at how great graham is at painting 🤣 he can’t even half a•• a hobby. That’s funny, and also so awesome! Also don’t overthink about selling stuff 🤣 what??Just have fun. Though I see that fun isn’t necessarily in his skill set. Which is again, pretty funny.

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Thanks so much :) Hard for me not to want to turn everything into a business lol

[@jordieevaans9614]

It’s weird, this podcast kind of started my regular viewing of Ludwig but hos return got me back into the podcast

[@duskpede5146]

doing kick flips on the alt right pipeline

[@isaacl6402]

LOVE that graham is doing other things. The art is actually amazing. Who knows, maybe a switch to being a lifestyle KZbinr if the finance stuff gets boring.

[@bigg1981]

Dayum a sponsor frmo ora le, really cool man :)

[@mxchump]

I really enjoy mogul mail, you can tell Ludwig usually isn't there just to dunk but to understand what happened from multiple perspectives.

[@Lohanujuan]

It’s not like they measure you when you’re getting your ID. Seen plenty of guys with 6ft on their license and they’re shorter than me (5’10”)

[@ayushw]

Anyone know the content creator that Ludwig mentored, is the video he talked about up yet?

[@gdogsgdogsgdogs]

NotHalite is the creator, he mentioned it 2 hours in on his livestream called one hour to tell stories from twitch con

[@erwinb.7711]

11:11 Oracle misspelling Infrastructure on their Cloud Infrastructure banner lol

[@inthevault9603]

Sounds like something T**** would do and be proud of it. 😂😂😂

[@Rodger51]

Graham should do a second channel (Bring Back After Hours) where he could just explore hobbies, also painting would be awesome to see,

[@St3f1]

Whoa! I dreamt of this collab

[@ShariSmith0819]

My two worlds connecting! Next he needs to do a audit with Caleb!

[@shucksv]

feel like I'm watching cable with all these commercials

[@inflatablepenguin]

That artwork was beautiful.

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Thank you so much!

[@matthewb9981]

All the love to you Ludwig but I think it's absolutely bananas how cognisent you are about gambling addictions being a problem but not thinking it's that much of an issue that children are being mainlined into gambling addictions through streaming, and calling that a "niche scenario"

[@Trade4Lewt]

that's def ludwig's weirdest take

[@briano9397]

The convo about Charlie, i call it "This person = Bad" channels

[@MAJ0ROCEL0T]

I'm glad ludwig stood on business over the Co-op business model. Kindness always comes with a risk. You risk your kindness not being appreciated or even taken advantage of, but to foresake the chance to elevate the lives of those around you for the sake of security is foolish. Why have a mansion in a landfill when you can have a home in a loving community. Your turnover would fall off a cliff if you have a clear and healthy culture and you are intentional about who you hire. ESPECIALLY with a smaller company. There is a level of investment you'll NEVER have if your employees arent directly rewarded for their efforts. And partial ownership is the most obvious way to do that

[@jeffrounsville4961]

Great video

[@isaacfry9603]

I’d like to hear Jacks opinion of the Co-op model 👍🏼

[@alexfoong416]

Like the pod, but your audio is too low - I have to turn it way up and then am deafened when the ad breaks roll.

[@turtle_lover4213]

I have always noticed that Luds videos will change thumbnails, i had no idea this was a feature that shows different thumbnails to see the best clicks.

[@KaiiZen108]

"It never really spiraled out of control" 1:05:37

[@stang10189]

I'm from Northwood, New Hampshire. Under 4k people, and I agree, if I had kids, I would move back to a town like that.

[@UnconventionalMarketing]

I live in a little town and honestly there is so much to be desired. Poor school funding, limited events or anything ran by the city. Nothing for kids to do, all around I would much rather live in a city.

[@Piktro]

1:44:00 The adblock thing ended up being the fault of Adblock themselves, not KZbin. As far as I'm aware.

[@DoctorQcumber]

1:15:32 the fact that Graham can say this without even giving it a second thought should be really troubling. It should be morally unacceptable to treat making money as a game where you get fulfillment by seeing the number go up. For instance, nobody should be allowed to ignore the destructive effects of being a landlord just because it is fulfilling for them. It's callous and should be appalling, but it's very normalized, especially in financially-focused circles.

[@aj2563]

Yeah facts tbh. I think when confronted with this viewpoint he would take the statement back. Don’t necessarily think he’s your classic slumlord

[@DoctorQcumber]

@@aj2563 the problem is that he goes out of the way to not be confronted with it, or when he is, he has ways of brushing it aside without having to truly wrestle with the consequences of his actions. He's encouraged to do that by the culture of individualism and fixation on profit as the primary goal of existence. It's so normalized in society that he doesn't have to think critically about it if he doesn't want to

[@aj2563]

@@DoctorQcumber you’re spitting tbh, I agree

[@aiheim6971]

dang luds everywhere recently hha also shout out to Dakota KOTLguy Cox and David LD Gorman the dota community misses you =]

[@stang10189]

If those are actually painted by Gram 100% and their not paint by color, they are extremely good. I would actually buy the clock one.

[@TheIcedCoffeeHour]

Not paint by color :) thanks so much!

[@Jaximillion1]

I played with penguinz0 on RuneScape back in the day and I would literally just call him "peng." I also remember him telling me he was starting a KZbin channel. That must've been 2007 or 2008 maybe.

[@tBOGGgle]

23:52 Ok so what the heck is he supposed to do then? I've seen that video too and he says not to throw shade at them. He also usually blurs out the usernames of the accounts. What else is there?

[@shazam2323]

never thought these 2 sides of my youtube algorithm would combine this way