Analog Summing Vs. "In The Box" Summing, Can You Hear The Difference?

Analog Summing Vs. "In The Box" Summing, Can You Hear The Difference?
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[@chadfayrobinson7537]

I have watched so many videos of people testing Summing analog and the only one that was a ahh ha moment was from Dangerous music . When they hit the button you go wow that’s what I’m looking for. Thanks for making this video!!!!

[@barneyrubble8255]

what video is that, im skeptical that dangerous summing would sound any better than neve.

[@TheOfficialSiNN]

@@barneyrubble8255I have a dangerous 2bus+ summing rig. I’ve played with a lot of summing mixers, dangerous got it right. It is good

[@chadfayrobinson7537]

@@barneyrubble8255 you will have to be your own judge

[@customcutstudios]

@@barneyrubble8255 ​​⁠​⁠ yes I’d like to see that also. I’m skeptical that the difference would sound so different on only one video, and not on every other video. I’m curious if there were blind tests on the video? Placebo effect is huge as we all know. Also, don’t forget there is a big difference depending on the quality of your DA and AD. The Latte’s DA and AD is so good, that I think it overtakes any marginal benefit of the summing. That’s my take on it.

[@barneyrubble8255]

@@chadfayrobinson7537 Yes i would like to be my own judge, that's why i asked what specific video you are refering too, but i guess you prob dont remember the youtube channel

[@braxal6983]

I appreciate this video. It helps me confirm about what others have said about analog summing. Thank you you Evan.

[@VSpellMusic]

Very clear difference. And I would have to agree with you, I like the centered feel with the ITB version. The vocal is more upfront in the mix instead of sitting back in it in the summed version. Would be interesting to see how the summed version would sound if you bring the vocal up more to the front. You could also experiment with the reverb on the summed version.

[@davidvochocjr1005]

This is my beloved summing mixer! Oh, wait, I prefer the unsummed version…. …so funny, I know it very well 😂

[@customcutstudios]

lol yea I've had both thoughts simultaneously for certain. I used to think analog summing sounded significantly better, and now I believe that thought process was wrong. I think the analog summing allowed me to lean on other analog hardware, which is what I liked. Learning how to live without the analog hardware, has been free-ing to say the least. I'm not exactly achieving the results I want to as of yet... but I'm getting closer all the time, in direct correlation with the increase in the amount of hours I've been mixing strictly in the box. Thanks for watching and being on the journey with me!

[@chrisostreicher9082]

i asked this on a newer video but i’ll try my luck again here; i’m very curious to hear about your experience mix-capturing on the latte vs the burl ad. there aren’t many people on this earth who have worked with both units in the same room so i’m very interested to hear your thoughts on how they stack up sonically, particularly when pushed/clipped.

[@customcutstudios]

Hey @Chrisostreicher9082 this is a great comment. I’ll see what I can come up with for a video to answer this question. Comparing the AD when pushed on the Burl, the Latte and the Dangerous AD+ would definitely be interesting to show on video. Thanks for watching

[@chrisostreicher9082]

@ thanks evan - a video would be incredible! if you’re planning to include audio i hope you consider attaching full res clips to the video; nuanced differences in converters sometimes gets lost in the youtube codec. i for one have been cross-shopping these two units for a good while and am stalemated, hopefully you can shed some light! happy holidays and very much look forward to hearing your thoughts and experience with these two incredible units.

[@BigStereoVR]

Back in 1998, a respected elder gave me the advice that digitally summed material includes all the quantization error of the initial recording + digital effects. Part of the veil of flatness. Your D/A provides linear interpolation which corrects quantization error, prior to going into the mix. Analog headroom is infinite, digital headroom is incremental, blah blah blah blah blah......

[@DedosMusiq]

Anyone else here the Phasing at 12:00-04 on the mix ?

[@SeemoreDunkan]

2:49 I believed that :) I can't believe I prefer the digital ITB summing.. What are these Custom Cables? I tried searching online but can't find that brand

[@RipleySterling]

Burl for sure has a sound. I think they even advertise it, it’s designed to have a sound. If I’m remembering right.

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

@@RipleySterling That’s correct, the Burl, Apogee, JCF Latte and Dangerous Music all have their sonic characteristics.

[@sergiorives-vj4ie]

I have a Neumann V475 with a W444, very cheap. The difference is amazing. Many of the new ones have transformers that are not close to the transformers they made in the past and the sound is practically not noticeable. The new ones are very expensive and have bad components. I have a clone of the Gates Sta Level with all the original transformers, I tried Sowter and Lundahl before trying the old ones. And the difference is quite noticeable.

[@alekp6822]

...I get carried away playing guitar via VST to the point i cant tell the difference from my real tube amp lol...But once i step back and rest i can spot it, right away and justify my tube amp purchase lol. Anyways i bought SSL Six and very happy with it, nothing beats analog gear but you gotta work with what you have. If you have not so great recordings/arrangements to start with ,no analog gear will save your mix. Thank you for everything you do, one small suggestion: before shooting A/B , can you play us(or link) a whole song or a big chunk of it, so we can get familiar with music/feel prior the comparison part of the video !

[@customcutstudios]

I appreciate you saying that. I agree with you that tube amps destroy the VST’s most of the time, IMO. That’s a great suggestion about the full length. I’ll see what I can do on that front.

[@VinceJackson1]

A friend of mine spent $5000 on a summing box & didn't hear any change from his normal stereo analog summing. The price on the summing box Dropped $1500 after he purchased it so he couldn't get a good used sale value! Summing boxes were create because early DAW summing would narrow the sound. Now DAW's are much better at just keeping the sound neutral & stereo analog can add the magic.

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

@@VinceJackson1 That’s correct, the early ProTools had that problem, Digidesign never admitted the problem but years later they stated to have solved the issue with an update. This is where summing boxes originated from 👍🏼

[@barneyrubble8255]

Which one did he buy? you can clearly here a difference just on the 2200 dollar neve orbit. wether thats a difference people want or not is up to them but there's a clear diffrence

[@MR_Cellarpop]

Hi! Can you do a video about how you use the RND MBP?. Best/Mathias

[@joshuaandrewsmusic]

I liked the first one, mogami double latte. It has a musicality and warmth to it that's vintage sounding. I found the others a bit harsh on the vocals.

[@customcutstudios]

I agree with you that the Mogami double latte was my favorite. Thats gonna be my preferred workflow for a bit. I love the way the DA and AD sounds on the Latte when you send the entire mix through it.

[@michaelshreve6455]

On Apple ear buds both of the analog summed tracks have more mid presence, and depth to it. The in the box ones are a little more scooped

[@boulevardsound5137]

There seems to be some unpleasant phasing sound with the cymbals on your analog summing

[@Durkhead]

Its the reverb you can really hear it on the snare to me it sounds like when you blow air though a drinking straw

[@StereoAnthony]

The analog summing has much better overall resolution than the ITB mix.

[@SpektorBaal]

I told my Latte years ago still regret it.

[@Durkhead]

I think this is the song where i said the snare is sticking out? Like it sounds like its going through a straw. On the the summed i can hear the weird straw sound But on the inthebox that weird sort of echo goes away it sounds better to me I would say the summed mix has more depth or 3d sort of sound The inthebox has a flatter sound more midrange

[@turtlefeet7722]

What do you thing about Neve 5059?

[@customcutstudios]

I've heard it's great, I've never used it. I ultimately went with the 5060 because I also needed a monitor controller and inserts, but anyone I know who has used the 5059 always spoke highly of it.

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

So you are summing through a Neve 5060? The sound difference is very subtle, in my opinion the difference should be obvious. I wouldn’t spend money on a summing mixer based on the sound difference I hear.

[@barneyrubble8255]

both tracks he's playing are still going through the 5060 though, one summed in 5060 the other summed in the box but its still going through the 5060 masterbus transformer which is designed to give that console feel to the stereo track. need a demonstration with the in the box mix not going though the 5060 at all, to know if 5060 makes an obvious difference to a mix thats worth 10 freakin thousand usa dollars. personally i preferred the summed 5060 sound over just the stereo 5060 sound. be interesting to hear a comparison taking it out of the equation completely.

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

@@barneyrubble8255 Yeah I totally agree I want to hear that too. And would be nice to use Adptr A/B to switch flawless between the two. Also I like it when the A/B comparisons have exactly the same the same bars of audio and are not too long.

[@customcutstudios]

@@barneyrubble8255 thanks for the suggestion. I will try to get that test done with a different source, after I get through the current videos on the docket.

[@customcutstudios]

@Chaos-Dynamics, yes summing through 5060, and ITB summing with the stereo signal going through the 5060. I agree the sound difference is very subtle, and the analog summed signal is slightly less preferable in my opinion. By running through the 5060 in both cases (summed and unsummed), I was able to isolate what the analog summing is doing with no other variables. If I removed the 5060 from the ITB source, that would be an additional changed variable. But don’t forget, I’m using an extremely high end converter as the DA and AD in the Latte.

[@Chaos-Dynamics]

@@customcutstudios I would love to hear the sound of just the Latte da/ad compared to your normal converters da/ad. I’m really curious to hear the sound of the Latte with just using a loop hardwired. I wish there was some kind of benchmark to test converters so we can easily listen for sonic differences. I’m also really interested how much a dedicated master clock could change the sound of the converter and if they are still relevant because they are pretty expensive and there aren’t many good comparison videos about them.

[@Hassan_Omer]

What's happening to the snare sound in the analog summing version! it sounds bad! The in the box version sounds great in this example!

[@customcutstudios]

@Hassan_Omer hey, I addressed this in a recent video (titled I made a Mistake). In the analog summed version I accidentally sent some drums out through Apogee converters, and the same drums out through Burl converters. The clocks were synced, but the different converters working on the same source was causing a phase cancelation issue on the drums. Sorry about that!

[@RipleySterling]

I’m not sure if maybe it’s some of your mic leaking in, but some parts of this sound a little phasey

[@customcutstudios]

You don’t realize the mic mutes itself during playback, since it’s armed to record. Look at the mic track that’s armed and you’ll there is no audio coming through during playback.

[@PARISONFIRE]

Going through a 4k console is nice when driven hard but all the gentle summed mixes dont justify the price in my opinion. For itb stuff i need two good ad / da converters with some gritty compressor and eq on the 2 bus. I cant justify pricing on these 24 converter summing setups. If neve is the colour you want you can get a pair of 1073 for example, get the stems through it fairly hot and its closer to a hot analog mix. Just my 2 cents.

[@barneyrubble8255]

the 5060 is suppose to speialize in gluing a mix with its master bus circut .......not sure if this is true or not, waiting for Jaffy to do a video of latte mix with and without going through 5060 masterbus. of course 10 k for a subtle neve console glue is probably not worth it ....but if you live for your music and are going for broke. and dont care about anything else in the world than your music....why not .... i want it to sound like 70s console all my favorite albums were made on.. who doesnt ......but does it ......mike dean seems to think so... is neve paying him for promo. ive been wanting to know this for a while, no proper test with the 5060 on youtube yet......with latte and 5060 perfect opportunity,

[@JamesJones-th3ml]

I am starting to feel like it's all a scam man. If you use your ears and get a great mix who is going to say OH, I CAN TELL this was mixed without any analog stuff? What about Hybrid where like my system I have a lot of outboard gear already and I don't feel I need to sum anything LOL It's just a real time mix down that I do from my DAW and the results have been amazing man. Plus, all the you tube channels you go to or whatever it is you are looking for they all say yeah this is the best a game changer LOL... One mix you were playing is SLIGHTLY thinner but they all sound good enough... What fan of music is going to say oh I don't like that it doesn't have analog summing LMAO I learned recently that with all my outboard gear I did a quick mix of a song idea WITH NO ANALOG anything and it sounds freaking AMAZING. I have mixed enough with my analog stuff that I look for that TONE whether I am using a plug in or a real analog 1176. LOL it doesn't make a huge difference anymore like it used to. Plugins are getting flat out AMAZING LMAO Kinda makes me wonder if I wasted my money here the last few months going Hybrid. I don't hear enough difference at all in any of these examples to do any more than I already do.

[@BigFuzzyRecords-ci5ge]

I definitely don't hear $4k-$6k difference

[@barneyrubble8255]

TRY 10K plus tax for 5060

[@leogolive]

Nobody listening to music on Spotify, Apple Music, etc cares about analog or digital. They just wanna hear a song they like in the club, car, or the wherever they are.

[@RipleySterling]

I’ve always said, when you hear your favorite song on the radio, it doesn’t matter if the reception is terrible, it’s still your favorite song and you still love it. Nobody has ever listened to a song and thought “oh this is digitally summed? This song is terrible!”

[@Durkhead]

​@@RipleySterlingbut if analog summing makes your song come thru that poor reception just a little bit clearer than it might be worth it

[@customcutstudios]

@leogolive Most people who work on music professionally are trying to make the best sounding product they possibly can, so that after it gets codec’d and streamed etc.. it still holds up as best it can. Knowing what sounds better to that specific engineer, and constantly refining their workflow for best results when they get new equipment, is something every professional does. Most professionals would never think to themselves, “it’s gonna be streamed anyway, so it doesn’t matter how I work, or what sounds better.” The choices made are based on what sounds best to them, which includes refining their tools, as well as questioning and investigating new workflows. Of course no listener cares about digital or analog summing, or whether it was recorded on a U47 or Sm58, the listener only cares about whether they like the final product. That has nothing to do with an engineer trying to create the best sounding product that they can create.

[@sevchyk]

@@customcutstudios Bro, it's just a random idiot who turns on some free plugins or general midi sets and posts "awesome sound"....

[@zanevillaincru]

I listened on my high end TV. The Mogami track is really fizzy and not nice to hear. The customc is nicer. One of the mogami is phasy.

[@customcutstudios]

I appreciate the feedback

[@barneyrubble8255]

If 5060 does nothing good to the sound that's crazy it cost 10 000 usd. Although in both examples you are actually going through the 5060 hitting the master bus transformer right. you should do an example where you're not going through the 5060 at all, just the latte and the mbp and fushion, if you like that better, than sell the 5060 and the burl. That mixbus tv guy seems to think the summing money is better spent on eqs compressors saturaters...and just go out and back in with your convertors. im on the fence... need more trials tests and demonstrations lol

[@customcutstudios]

For years I thought the 5060 was doing a ton, but now with the Latte’s super high end conversion, I don’t feel the same way. I agree the sound difference is very subtle, and the analog summed signal is slightly less preferable in my opinion. By running through the 5060 in both cases (summed and unsummed), I was able to isolate what the analog summing is doing with no other variables. If I removed the 5060 from the ITB source, that would be an additional changed variable. The goal of the test for me, was to figure out specifically what analog summing does compared to ITB summing with no other variables.

[@barneyrubble8255]

@@customcutstudios right but now do you keep the 5060 for running it through the stereo bus which isnt summing but it is part of summing running the whole mix through the stereo bus transformer of the console. i was talking to a mixer online who says he personally knows professionals who dont sum through the 5060 but they do run their mix through the stereo bus.

[@Mix3dbyMark]

Mute your mic during playback, sounds phasy

[@customcutstudios]

You don’t realize that the mic is muted automatically because the mic is armed to record. When I hit stop on the playback you hear a few milliseconds of fade. Nothing else comes through the mic. Watch the audio on the armed track and you’ll see there’s nothing coming through the mic during playback

[@Durkhead]

​@@customcutstudiosits the reverb on the drums

[@VinceJackson1]

@@customcutstudios There is something phasey happening with the stem summing I thought it was just me

[@Mix3dbyMark]

@@customcutstudios okay. Well something is weird there... Unless it's in the mix.

[@sickmessiah]

All have a 2kish thing I don’t like

[@JamesJones-th3ml]

Turn up the low mids slightly and you got the same thing from the thinner mix that wasn't summed and the one you say is summed. LMAO Sorry I am looking for an interface and every channel seems to be trying to sell something. I am not saying you are but there is not enough difference for me to even try analog summing. I have enough outboard gear. When I mixdown it sounds full and analog whether I use the gear or not the last few song ideas I have had.

[@OGSiX33]

Wait, don't you hear that super obvious and hideous phasing on the summed mixes?

[@customcutstudios]

I realized after I made the video that I had accidentally sent some of the drums to apogee converters, and some of the drums to burl converters. Must have been an issue with the clocks not syncing on the different converters on the same source (even though they were supposed to be locked), that was causing that.

[@OGSiX33]

@@customcutstudios Yeah, some of the OH's leaking through would do that! we've all been there