I heard a difference in the top end... the Analog version is a bit darker/creamy and the digital is more crisp/precise... It's a matter of personal taste, both sound very good.
@rumar4u3 жыл бұрын
@@realityonx3063 Well I don't know if that's accurate because in reality the Analog summing introduces subtle harmonics and distortions (because of transistors or tubes) that fill those "Empty" spaces and compresses the top or bottom end of any mix, while the Digital version sounds much more cleaner and represent a much realistic sound of a mix. But in the end it's a matter of personal taste. 😊
@rumar4u3 жыл бұрын
@@realityonx3063 Clarity is not something you find only in top end... a more accurate terminology for top end would be crisp, accurate, defined... Clarity is when all instruments fit in their place inside the mix without fighting for space. Clarity is when you clearly can pinpoint the Piano and the guitar in those same frequencies, the Bass and Drums or the High Guitar Harmonics with Cymbals. When you mix in the box (digital) you can have more separation (clarity) than mixing in analog but... The analog distortions and compression (specially in the top end) makes our ears feel more relaxed and under control of what we're hearing which in reality, all they're doing is introducing harmonics, distortions that attenuate the top end... Is what I like to call creamy, glued.
@rumar4u3 жыл бұрын
@dfasht Yes, It could be... It's almost the same as women and hear me out... you could have a pair of beautiful twins, but one is picky, bitchy, dresses with top quality brands and she ain't down to do certain things (you know what I mean) 😆 The other one looks physically the same, beautiful, maybe they share 90% of things but one important difference is that, she's down for whatever every time. So in summary the whinny bitchy one is more detailed, crisp and probably clearer (digital) but the other one is more relaxed, enjoyable, creamy... (analog) in which every one prefers. 🤣
@rumar4u3 жыл бұрын
@dfasht I've heard Airwindows before... but never tried them. I'm on an M1 MBP and read they haven't made the transition yet. Since you're a patreon, any estimate ?
@rumar4u3 жыл бұрын
@dfasht When you say "He has to..." but also "One man operation...". Is he getting paid to do it... and if that's the case, why so many plugins ? That's more than what Plugin Alliance, Acustica Audio, Slate Digital, Fab Filter, iZotope combined.
@TerryMaplePoco3 жыл бұрын
I’d love to see snake oil vids on some digital “analog” summing plugins
@architechproducer3 жыл бұрын
Yes, please. And maybe alternative solutions. I've thought about using my Xone 96 DJ mixer 4 summing.. Not sure if it's gonna mess up more quality than it provides. 🤷♂️
@maeckie553 жыл бұрын
I like the digital precision for the instruments and the Analog for warm vocals (especially for consonants and sillables)
@matthewsweet52323 жыл бұрын
Hobbiest here...My main DAW is Harrison Mixbus32C and I use all of the busses for various stems using the "tape" drive on each bus to taste. Sometimes I add True Iron or Lindell bus transformer emulations to each of those busses at the start of the mix if I'm going for a vintage vibe that I think will work. When I use Reaper (mainly when I want to emulate a different console), I create a similar bussing scheme and user True Iron or one of the Lindell bus plugins. Again, I mix through it rather than throw it on at the end. When I remember to, I bypass the plugins when I get near the end of the mix and even though it's software, it does make a difference. And yes, I use the TMT function in the Lindell's to get some slight variations on the channels.
@Richies_Beer_n_Gear3 жыл бұрын
I was a professional audio engineer for over ten years, had my own recording studio, tracked and mixed bands every day. I was the engineer's engineer, didn't want to be Tha Produca, so I worked with producers and I just did THE SOUND. I went so far down the rabbit hole that I gave it up and went back to college to do a B. Eng. in Electronic Engineering. Digital summing is perfect. Yes, it can be easily abused and made to sound shit, most often by bad gain staging. Analogue summing sounds different because of the fact that it is not perfect. The real world electronic circuits have a sound that the digital summing does not. The sound of analogue "summing" varies widely, because of the summing circuit topology and associated electronics, such as any nonlinear components, from caps, to coils, to opamps, to... pretty much everything effects it in some way or another. So, to conclude, "analogue SUMMING" is not superior, it does not have "a sound", it has many sounds. Mixing on a Neve 8058 will not sound or feel like mixing the exact same material on an SSL 4K, or on an API, or an MCI... But it's not because of some magic woo woo of analogue "summing", it's everything else in the signal path.
@TheFakeNewsFrog3 жыл бұрын
After reading your post, I think we agree. It isn’t ‘analog summing’ itself that sounds better. As it could sound a lot worse, depending on what components are being used in the summing mixer. For example: The components used in a off-brand, cheaply made mixer, may effect the sound in a way that could be considered bad. But on the other hand, the components used in consoles like the ones you listed, effect the sound in a way that some would consider pleasing to the ears. While each are still unique in their own right. But since these effects that are considered pleasing are actually slight imperfections, on paper, digital could be considered better because it doesn’t have those imperfections. And it doesn’t matter if you pick analog or digital, if you don’t know what you’re doing you can make it sound worse on either.
@draztiqmeshaz62263 жыл бұрын
Since digital summing is DIGITAL, i think the word "perfect" is a stretch. But in this scenario, where we are DAing, summing, and then ADing and playing that back digitally, that's perhaps a conversation for those of us who can hear a flea fart in the corner. I'll save the infinite harmonic series truncation artifact thesis for another day, and just say that I agree with you enough to get a bridge built.
@mhavock3 жыл бұрын
Are you basically saying analog summing can add some good or bad humming? :)
@johnthecreative3 жыл бұрын
it sounds like you are saying there's no reason to mix on a real console and I disagree. Since I can't fit a console in my room I'm interested in analog summing. If it doesn't work out, oh well. I just need an extra 5 grand. Still less than buying a console.
@MellowXBrew3 жыл бұрын
@@johnthecreative no more so that there's nothing "wrong" with digital summing as people claim. Analog summing is no more better than transformer less boxes. Taking a digital mix to make it better by analog summing is simply subjective cause there's nothing wrong or erroneous about digital summing. But if you like the sound and taste of analog summing then by all means. . .
@AvivC13 жыл бұрын
I forgot which order you had the analog / digital, and I thought for sure my favourite was analog.. until I rewound the video and it revealed my favourite every time was digital! Too funny! Blind testing is time and time again, the only way to go.
@yamansitar61533 жыл бұрын
I’ve got a ssl six. The best thing I’ve bought And great for summing. :just to add I’ve been in the box for years as I couldn’t afford a good thing to sum into Heard about the ssl six and summing as soon as heard a track into it there was more width and depth I didn’t hear before , I also think that if you use a lot of software interments ,like bass piano etc To go back into a analog desk to give it analog colour can be good for some music. .
@digitalmarketinghumans3 жыл бұрын
Hey there, I was curious about the SSL Six. Thinking about getting it. Does this mean since there are 4 faders, I can only mix or run 4 tracks in my DAW through those 4 faders? I still work through my DAW in my computer(Pro Tools) and wanted to add analog harmonics to my mixes/tracks.
@yamansitar61533 жыл бұрын
@@digitalmarketinghumans hi. No you can do a lot more , search on KZbin there’s lots of videos about the desk ,that can explained better than me , I only use track one when I want to record , but when summing I have Kirk tr 1. Mono bass track 2. Mono. , then use the 3-4 sterio 5-6 sterio Ext. 1. Sterio Ext 2. Sterio. I’ll try to link something here kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3SUdIKIrrabg6s
@yamansitar61533 жыл бұрын
@@digitalmarketinghumans it’s maybe no the best but it’s the real thing and cheep.
@hithere42892 жыл бұрын
@@yamansitar6153 but like what would you say its causing that "width and depth" ? those are subjective terms. like for example a saturator makes the sound warmer but its because of added harmonics
@kensmechanicalaffair2 жыл бұрын
@@hithere4289 Width and depth are terms for realism, like walking outside and observing what you hear with your ears. Sound production with analog components are the closest you can get to that.
@TonyPelosi-music3 жыл бұрын
I used Harrison's MixBus for many years along with Reaper. All editing was on Reaper and when everything was done, I routed to Harrison for kind of ' "analog coloring" and it worked fine. But when I found Airwindows consoles, I just decided to keep my workflow with just one DAW, and - I know it is a matter of taste - AW sounds a lot better to my ears. Both are great coloring tools for an analog feel.
@a-v-l76073 жыл бұрын
Great video! I also add analogue here with a diy summer based on a LAWO DV975-3 ... sounds very good!
@iammusicp3 жыл бұрын
the console sounds much richer and denser. definitely more natural to my ears. very interesting, thanks!
@KhasrouhRecords3 жыл бұрын
YES! With analog you get the Harmonic Distortion and color with better stereo imaging . When i used analog summing for the first time i was amazed and i did a lot of comparisons and i always Chose the analog Sound .
@tracyschnurr86853 жыл бұрын
I like the thought that my analog summing can't be exactly reproduced elsewhere. It makes my studio and services unique as to repeat business and customer loyalty to a custom sound.
@jamescuttsmusicjcm50133 жыл бұрын
It can be. Lol!
@StereotacticMusic3 жыл бұрын
I like the low end of the digital sum better and over all everything sounds better , very interesting. Thanks
@emericas92 жыл бұрын
Yea ur lying lol
@alexarmstrong4493 жыл бұрын
Can you do a video on the Air Windows summing stuff? I think it is his Console series
@ramspencer54923 жыл бұрын
Lol. Just posted about that too. It makes your workflow a bit weird is the only downside. The more instances you run the better. It sounds pretty analog to my ears.
@HojoSinclair3 жыл бұрын
I would like this as well. Console 7 is the latest one
@alexarmstrong4493 жыл бұрын
@@HojoSinclair I have such a hard time keeping up. Is there anyone who indexes or categorizes his plugs? I know Chris has made a couple of bundles, but he pumps new ones out so fast, they go obsolete really quickly
@HojoSinclair3 жыл бұрын
@@alexarmstrong449 I know what you mean. You kinda just have to keep an eye on the website or his youtube channel.
@cryptout3 жыл бұрын
@@alexarmstrong449 I love his tape plug and has one that does huge reverbs great for sound scapes..
@toslinked3 жыл бұрын
the analog one takes a step back from the speakers. I like that very much. also, analog summing makes mixing so much easier.
@thesoundhub9853 жыл бұрын
yes, takes a step back from the speakers and to me the stereo image widens overall, yet becomes more defined and "glued" together sounding. You can only imagine once this is compounded by using analog in more places.
@MartinSchnella3 жыл бұрын
I bought the Dangerous 2Bus+ one year ago and it was an absolute gamechanger for me. I think it depends on what you want to achieve. The difference is huge but in my opinion every elemt sits better in the mix. The stereo image is better and it all has that 5% more life that I was always looking for. The Dangerous also has some cool features I do not want to miss anymore. I do not think it is alway neccessary to sum analog, but evrytime I do it, everything gets that 5-10% extra I really like!
@elliottbastide59363 жыл бұрын
I saw a lot of review like yours. I want to include summing mixer in my workflow but hard to choose between Tegeler Tube Summing Mixer and Dangerous 2Bus...
@MartinSchnella3 жыл бұрын
@@elliottbastide5936 I do not know the other ones, but I think every box does its job well! he main reason I bought the 2Bus+ were the extra features.
@audiodude3 жыл бұрын
Another way to get the analog sound without breaking the bank is to do all two mix processing outside of the box and while you mix always keep that path open
@guyvermearns3 жыл бұрын
Definitely a taste thing, and you are exactly right on specific circumstances dictate which is "better".
@vigilantestylez2 жыл бұрын
For the longest time recording was done through a Neve console for the color / preamp, and then the tape from the session was given to a mixer to mix on an SSL console because of its transparency. In today's world if you are getting tracks that are already treated through analog equipment, then all you need to do is to mix it transparently through the DAW with digital plugins. It has all the color it needs. Now on the other hand if you are mixing cold digital tracks produced in a DAW, then it helps to give it some color in the mix. Perhaps use some analog emulating plugins, or at the very minimum run the mix through an analog summing mixer.
@ShadikTV3 жыл бұрын
My guy. Good stuff. Good morning from Alaska. It's 8:35 am.
@lockee773 жыл бұрын
6:23 in switzerland actually. time to go to bed, intresting video as usual 😍
@rickspyder6159 Жыл бұрын
Btw i love your honesty...and you generally reaffirm my suspicious
@ericjtomsky3 жыл бұрын
I think you may still need two inputs for summing a mono source because of how panning mono sound sources in the stereo field work. I read that essentially a pan knob is a resistor that sends varying amounts of the same signal to the left and right output in inverse proportions, so as you pan to the left the level of output to the left speaker increases and the output to the right speaker decreases in response (and vice versa), this gives the impression of the sound sources placement in the stereo field. Cheers, just found your videos and I like them!
@jonlieberman997 Жыл бұрын
Yes, it is all about the color of analog summing rather than which is better. Analog summing is a bit more labor intensive. I do both and it just depends on what I am trying to achieve and how hard I want to work. If I have to walk away from a project for more than a day all of my settings are the same in the digital realm. I do love the analog color.
@LofiandChilloutMusic2 жыл бұрын
I brought a tonelux OTB 16 analog Channel summing amp and I would never go back to mixing digital again , the separation , clarity, detail and head room on each channel is incredible , great video
@glendabed3 жыл бұрын
Really useful & informative, cheers!!
@Justanothermusicproducer3 жыл бұрын
I use a passive analog summing box, 16 channels, 4 of them can be switched to mono. Then depending on the source I go with my neve or api preamps. What is for me the best advantage of using a summing box? Well, I can use my busses analog gear and skip conversions. I have inserted a stereo buss compressor in channels 9-10, a stereo pultec (11-12), a Tape recorder for saturation (13-14) and a stereo reverb (15-16) taken from old hammond sounder 3 keyboards. I also can patch guitar pedals or any other processors in any channel. So, all the summing and analog processing will be done in the same D/A step and the stereo bounce will go throw a dedicated A/D converter. I try to do the least A/D D/A conversions, and I am so happy with the results, the sound and fixed lots of phasing issues using analog parallel processing. Best wishes! Stay safe and fun content... I would say, they sound different, not better. The only thing that matters is your workflow to get you where you love what you are hearing!
@nobodyknew3 жыл бұрын
The answer to this is yes. And if you dont believe me, try a Dangerous 2 Bus summing amp, and you will hear the depth, warmth and space immediately.
@autodidacticprofessor8693 жыл бұрын
Sure. If you spend $3000 for a magic box, of course you’re going to think it made your music sound better.
@dighawaii13 жыл бұрын
Adding another process, that is not a time-based effect, adds "space" XD
@nobodyknew3 жыл бұрын
@@whitex4652 I dont smoke but I also dont understand the volatility to my otherwise enthusiastic response. Perhaps it is you who needs to smoke.
@nobodyknew3 жыл бұрын
@@autodidacticprofessor869 I didnt pay for the box, the studio did. I got paid to use it. Do you get paid to use equipment?
@nobodyknew3 жыл бұрын
@@dighawaii1 removing unwanted and unused frequencies adds space...adding another process like an FX bus or element actually uses space. So I'm not sure what you mean, here.
@kend75973 жыл бұрын
It’s obvious that the people who say there’s no difference between the two have bum ears. The moment I finally figured out how to route audio OUT from ableton and into the analog domain, is when i discovered this is everything i feel has been lacking in my sound and my mixes. it was honestly life changing. i was getting nauseous from that foul, metallic, flat, lifeless sound of digital summing.
@BILLY-px3hw3 жыл бұрын
The analog sounds like a painting and the digital sounds like a high-quality print. Both have desirable characteristics
@terrence.desilva3 жыл бұрын
The low end of the digital sounds more tighter & deeper. The high end & the mid range of the analog sounds more smoother than the digital but the low end looses its clarity (but that can be due to the converters you are using as well). They both sound great though. Two different flavours if you may
@roberthanzl82943 жыл бұрын
That's exactly the point. It's just a matter of choice. What sound you prefer in the genre or style you are creating. And this choice you should make already at the beginning of your mix. Because when you fas an example decide to go analog and KNOW your devices you work with, then you know what to do to brighten your high end for instance. But if you take all those stems and do digital summing, then of course it will sound harsher. So it's really a matter of choice and the decision you make at the beginning.
@Tekkerue3 жыл бұрын
If you want to better isolate just the summing part, you could route each track out one at a time and re-record it back into the DAW. Use the same channels on your mixer that you are using for the summing. This would color each track exactly the same with the converter and mixer, but by re-recording each track one at a time the summing part would still be digital.
@jasonstam86612 жыл бұрын
Would also be nice for it to be a blind listening test to avoid confirmation bias.
@werter260 Жыл бұрын
that's clever, would have been a more fair comparison
@WiresMusicChannel3 жыл бұрын
You can also get this effect by routing the mix bus through some good analog gear - like a silver bullet, or nice compressor and back in through good convertors
@palebluedotstudios3 жыл бұрын
I'm listening on studio monitors and headphones and boy, is that difference subtle. I don't sweat summing too much when I consider Peter Gabriel's Security was recorded fully-digital in 1982! And no one's like, "Man, that LP sounds so cold and sterile...". But I fully agree with your take on digital distortion and oversampling. Thanks for this!
@dykodesigns3 жыл бұрын
Peter Gabriel's Security, great album, one my favorites from him. Now you mention it, I do seem to remember something about digital recording / mastering on the record sleeve. I know The Alan Parson Project and Donald Fagen where early adoptes of digital recording and mastering. In the early 80's this was a selling point when the first CD's wherre released. Peter Gabriel was also quite keen with his Fairlight CMI, I'd say that it's part of the charm of the Security album. Despite it beeing digital (and 8 bit) it sounds quite warm to me.
@palebluedotstudios3 жыл бұрын
@@dykodesigns Yep. One of the earliest D/D/D CDs!
@onteraction82943 жыл бұрын
As much as I’m a fan of early solo Gabriel I did find it cold, but pleasant. It was sortof a new era and sound. The synths also contributed to this. Good comparison.
@palebluedotstudios3 жыл бұрын
@@onteraction8294 I hear you. It's an interesting thing, because the early 80s was all about angular sounds and arrangements. So is it cold because of the A/D converters, or the production/writing choices? I say the latter.
@onteraction82943 жыл бұрын
@@palebluedotstudios ya writing choices for sure. Though, that was the first era of full home studio recording. Smaller consoles, smaller sound maybe..... plus these guys didn’t entirely know what they were doing. Lol the tapes went elsewhere to be mixed I imagine. 👍🏼
@cretecandi68073 жыл бұрын
How do you like your beans cooked ? ...In a microwave oven or in a pan over heat.
@Sonicsmith3 жыл бұрын
I can testify that Harrison MixBus really sounds different. I was blown away.
@Jaburu3 жыл бұрын
well, it has a saturation knob on the buses
@Noammats3 жыл бұрын
@@Jaburu They do saturate but I wasn't blown away by those. What I was blown away is the sound straight out of the LR bus. Just sounds organic and open. Hard to explain. Perhaps the brilliant EQ's help.
@Jaburu3 жыл бұрын
@@Noammats the masterbus has saturation, too, though
@Noammats3 жыл бұрын
@@Jaburu Yes, and it sounds the same as the one on the groups... Didn't blow me away and the mixbus "sound" is not about that saturation specifically. That's what's amazing about it. It's totally clean but yet sounds much clearer and open than all the other DAWs.
@Jaburu3 жыл бұрын
@@Noammats as you said, you must be liking the sound of the EQ than, because without any plugins and all the saturation knobs down it will be like any other DAW
@johnisrael51832 жыл бұрын
Mix 8, dbx Comp, BBE MAXIMIZER, DRAWMER SATURATOR, SSL 2 PLUS, RACK, HEADHONES......With good MIC, decent DAW AND CONTROLLER....$3000 dollars...your mixing and mastering like a PRO!!
@RudeRecording3 жыл бұрын
Passive summing was known when I started in the 70's, as resistive summing. Pure resistive summing must be power matched in and out to achieve the best results. Typically we do not worry about power matching these daze, most inputs are bridging which makes matching eaiser. Pure resistive summing is only limited by the heat dissipation of the resistors, there are no headroom issues but there are headroom and distortion issues with the drivers and the receivers. These daze the converters also contribute. I found it interesting that your null test showed considerable nonlinearities. I do a lot of live capture recording and prefer my capture be as accurate as I can afford to make it. I do not miss pure analog, I was the person responsible for maintenance and repair. I don't miss daily calibration of the machines, tube replacement and associated drift problems. As always, does it really sound better or is it a sound quality that we're used to?
@alexanderdiazlarsson8292 жыл бұрын
Analog definitely sound better from a production and sound design aspect. Not even a a question about it. Just look an the difference between an analog ssl bus compressor and a digital, or the black box, better maker eq etc etc etc. Plus you get away with more distortion and compression while it sound amazing and you can get higher lufs in the end (very important in my genre).
@RudeRecording2 жыл бұрын
@@alexanderdiazlarsson829: I think it's a matter of sound quality that we're used to like comfort food. Perhaps it's the absence of non-liniarities makes things sound unfamiliar. I recently talked to a studio engineer that had his recordings "sound better" because he was adding tape noise to his digital recordings. The idea that vinyl "sounds better" is pure nostalgia, I recently bought my first turntable in over 30 years because one of the record companies I produce for is releasing 45's as a promotional gimmick and I need ot approve the test cuts. This was necessary as record mastering/cutting is more of an art than a science. Turntables , at best, are a precision approximation device and I might add that there are no newly manufactured cutting lathes in decades. I never enjoyed the "guy eating popcorn" in every vinyl record I've ever heard. I do a lot of live capture recording and have always strived to make the recording sound as good as what I heard in concert. In addition to my studio experience I worked as a broadcast engineer in radio and TV for 3 decades or so and I've been a professional recordist since the mid '70's.
@alexanderdiazlarsson8292 жыл бұрын
@@RudeRecording tape noise has little to do with nostalgia and more to do with colouring your track and filling up blank spaces, it’s not much different than an atmospheric pad, the difference is when it’s real analog in that particular scenario the tape hiss actually reacts to the recording itself is and therefor is more musical than a loop. Either way, this all has little to do with any nostalgia and more to do with results and purpose. When you can squash something while giving it more dimension that makes sending out demos I’m working on way faster and more fun. It’s literally a way for me to save time while having the highest quality possible!
@RudeRecording2 жыл бұрын
@@alexanderdiazlarsson829: I'm also a trained classical musician and I was always taught that the "spaces are as important as the notes."...
@alexanderdiazlarsson8292 жыл бұрын
@@RudeRecording yup, but I think u get what I’m talking about!
@simonbarth31813 жыл бұрын
They don't sound different to me in a "EQ" sense, but the analog one is more exciting to me. I guess the converter also plays a huge role I guess.
@davidlindsay65733 жыл бұрын
I like mixbus32c however if you don't know yet you have to make adjustment before you hear the sound of harrison. If you test with everything flat it sound =s the same as any other daw.
@analogrich3 жыл бұрын
Analog version was fuller, very 3D. Sounded louder. More in your face a d definitely warmer.
@cortical13 жыл бұрын
Sure seems like the digital is brighter, with clearer highs but also occasional harshness, whereas the analog has a softened high end (trying to avoid the term "warm" here) and feels maybe more glued together. 🤔🩺
@robertl.69193 жыл бұрын
My setup for years as been like this: SoundScape with Antelope Orion/SSL converters into our API Legacy Plus 48 channels with Barefoot Speakers. My main " mix ' compressors Elysia, Neve, API, ... All gear and only basic SSL plugins... Lexicon 960, 480, Bricasti...Lucky me I got them all. Studio is moving ( pandemic got the projet on ice) so had to settle for a small mix installation. Got Studio One 5 Pro since SoundScape is no longer updated... Had to do the mix all ITB...First time of my life since 1987.... I will never go back to analog to mix. Simple. 😁
@johnisrael51832 жыл бұрын
The right plugins....with a Makie Mixer, dbx comp and a BBE Maximizer all used correctly can blow alot of big expensive studios....away
@manuel06953 жыл бұрын
I prefer the digital one. Is obviously better! seams to me also a little wider on high frequencies. Analog one is blurry AF..
@rocktonmusikschule3 жыл бұрын
Harrison mixbus is incredible. You should try it. The sound is great but working with Midi is not so good. I tried the NLS Bus and the consoles added a beautiful coloration.
@kniferideaudio3 жыл бұрын
I use analog summing if i'm having a hard time fitting something into a crowded mix. I feel like I have more granular control of the stereo field and more width. Other than that, i keep it in the box.
@draztiqmeshaz62263 жыл бұрын
Mixplaining trigger warning: did you time-align the incoming summed track with the digi-bounce, there is WAY too much information in the null test, IMO, for all other things to indeed be equal. Also, was there any kind of limiter going on in there somewhere? It's strange that when you switch to the Alog solo, the track meters under digi go dark, but when you switch to digi, the track meters under aLog stay active. If there was a hard limiter in there, sending two of everything would clip out around the same, but the null test would be way off null instead of just a little bit. my 2 pennies
@pdm673 жыл бұрын
This is a good point - the conversion time from D to A and back again needs to be accurately measured and allowed for in the process (which he may have done) and you need to be super sure that gain really is unity.
@Beorninki3 жыл бұрын
This was interesting! Thank you.
@Creativecoverz3 жыл бұрын
Yes summing is miles better to me. Better clairty and depth
@DiogoCocharro3 жыл бұрын
I don't recall you mentioning pan law,... I might be wrong, but the results in that null test sound like pan law differences.
@Jarazz3 жыл бұрын
Just push TrueIron to taste and you're good :)
@tymkrs3 жыл бұрын
My analog summing rig is not a 'subtle difference' compared to the same mix in the box. Antelope Audio 32 DAC > Vintage Maker 32 to 2 passive summing mixer (with various mono switches) > a matched pair of Pultec eqs > a (stereo) Fairchild 670 > a Studer 1/4" half track (7.5 or 15 ips). More of a night and day difference. On my setup, 'which color' tends to happen more in the speed of the tape. 15ips gives me that precise open top end we expect from digital these days, but with a effortless sheen which is hard to describe, whereas 7.5 gives me that warm vibe (not much of a bump on the Studer vs American / Japanese stuff though). By using the same equipment that used to be used for the final signal controls before a tv/radio transmitter, I can dial in exactly how the signal hits the tape. The process really start to shine in reproduce mode, live monitoring playback while recording the mixdown. I can, for example, adjust the top end eq to make up for any high frequency response rolloff on the tape or adjust the compression to shape the character of the tape saturation. You are very correct about how much the work flow changes! It is not uncommon for me to do things that one would never do in a digital workflow. To take advantage of the full headroom of the converter (everything is sending out super hot), sometimes it makes sense to do things like sending out the vocal on two or three pairs of converters to bring it forward in the mix. Do I think my kind of set up is required? Nope. Would I give mine up? Nope :) Have fun. Use what you have. The character that your tool enforces on your art can be a feature not a bug. @whixr / @tymkrs
@yikelu3 жыл бұрын
Analog summing plugins: UAD has API and Neve through LUNA. Analog Obsession has an 8 channel Neve style summing mixer as well (look for NCAR). Waves has NLS. You mentioned Harrison Mixbus, but I'm honestly not sure if it has any special summing sauce. Studio One has some built in stuff as well.
@robgreenlandMusic3 жыл бұрын
great video as always! I found the null test really interesting.. I use a lot of summing, but in layers of effects over dubs, the final mix is a render, but I have the option of balancing stems on a small analogue mixer, it works well to incorporate my 90s FX/stomp boxes into my work. I do attain to use a large mixer for my own final mixes, but mostly because I'm a fan of Dubby sounds , I wouldn't feel the need to use that for a client mix unless it was requested...
@BS-te3mn3 жыл бұрын
Maybe this calls for a snake oil video on analog summing plug-ins , like waves non-linear summer ?
@finnykurian3 жыл бұрын
And Slate Digital VMR in which they have option to use the type of console summing
@eaccin3 жыл бұрын
Record some live drum and bass thru tape and digital simultaneously and you can really understand what we really love about analog saturation, but even that might not work all the time. Summing might be great if you have the time and money but we can get really close with plugins nowadays, matter of taste and style of music like you say in the end of the video. Daft punk RAM I think was tracked thru tape and digital simultaneously and they chose one or the other depending on the song. Wasn't "Leave the door open" - top 1 song of 2021 mixed ITB by Serban Ghenea?
@Mansardian3 жыл бұрын
Okay, I write this after having listened to the first comparison on my phone (!). Even on my phone the difference translate rather well. The analog summing has more depth, the digital one more clarity.
@forestcochran41962 жыл бұрын
Yeah, that "null test" seems a bit sus to me. I just watched a Dan Worrall video on the same topic and his was a much smaller difference, almost none.
@neuronmind3 жыл бұрын
Spoken of summing, In my DAW , when I route all the tracks to a group bus (without any processing or eq on that bus ) and compare that to all the tracks routed to the master bus (again without processing or eq on that bus ) at the same level there's a difference in sound. I don't understand why that is, I would expect it to be the same.
@Slope1143 жыл бұрын
in my daw i can hear artifacts if i putt too many signals into an AUX channel.
@RobMitshi Жыл бұрын
I'm using Motu MK5 with Sabre DAC, and DSP mixing, I will get a good (affordable without me having to sell my car or take a loan ;), rack slowly, not only for the sound but for hands-on experience aswel, finetuning knobs with my hands instead of a mouse. Of course, I can use midi controllers on the plugins, but yeah, people just go nuts and think you are a pro because u have a rack with fancy units... It is what it is...
@akumusik35823 жыл бұрын
Awesome🕊️
@sun_tzu7773 жыл бұрын
To my ears. The digital feels much wider and airy and has more punch or growl. The analog feels much more subtle, warmer and the instruments feel closer together or dare I say more "glued"
@tiborsaas3 жыл бұрын
For an even more fair comparison, you should probably route the digitally summed channel through the console as well on a single channel and then do the comparison. This way the D/A won't play a significant role.
@matthewjenkins1023 жыл бұрын
ADDA plays a major role
@CharlesTsaiE3 жыл бұрын
Despiting the summing circuit added the color to the sound,the analog summing processing also introducing the DAC to ADC distortion.Moreover digital summing doesn't cut off the bit length if you lower the fader because of the floating-bit summing(48bits in protools 64bits in logic pro),in analog summing unless using the analog fader to mix,lower the fader in DAW channel would cut the bit in the DAC processing. I think the whole point is to put the fader to the right position and mix the music as good as you can.Whatever you use can't help you to get better music,just a little bit taste different.Snake oil
@sandp10003 жыл бұрын
Harrison Mixbus episode is necessary
@maisonmallninja2 жыл бұрын
Great video! youtube captions does not know the first thing to do with your voice... haha
@piotrpuf27473 жыл бұрын
as for the first example - coloration to low end was pretty amazing and made the sound less flat. What people would like to see is really checking how to use exciters and analog emulation based on e.g. ozone and compare it to the song without such coloration. Lack of warmth is common issue with mixes done without those.
@preciseaudioblog3 жыл бұрын
Of what I’ve listened, summing improves the audio in a 3% or less. Only me here? Nice vid (and beats as well). Cheers!
@DanBires2 жыл бұрын
Some people don't understand true analog summing is designed to clip your audio coming out the interface into the summing mixer at -20 , -10 or -6db and back in to your interface. Then you get the clipped audio say at -20 and gain massive headroom. You also achieve the fullness of true analog console analog mixer and won't need to do much like eq and add a bunch of plugins. Everything becomes very balanced and a lot easier to mix. When you bring the volume and audio back up in your daw you will see the difference and hear it. You can really only do this with a summing mixer. Summing mixers are all different. True analog summing is designed also to switch mono for your kick, bass, snare and lead vocal. It will come back through more punchy centered and true analog. Then the rest go out stereo and create a super wide but in place stereo analog mix. Digital can not do this meaning produce those transients in the digital domain. Sure there are plugins like saturation that will mimic it but nothing will sound as sweet as the analog summing mixer clipping audio. Many people dont understand analog boards and the concept so its best to research this before making comparison videos. There are many videos out there that will show you how amazing this all works and give you a better idea. I am not knocking the video. Thanks for the effort.
@ejmikk3 жыл бұрын
I'm surprised but the digital summing sounded better to me every time, a lot wider and a little more dynamic. Analog summing sounds surprisingly flat. The difference was clear and bigger than I thought it would be.
@kaitsu96083 жыл бұрын
Analog is great for distortion 😃 digital is harsh, analog growls.
@MixedByDotRob3 жыл бұрын
The analog summed mix has a lot more depth and width to my ears and sounds smoother overall. But analog summing is not easy to do/to setup/to maintain. So I switched to running analog gear on inserts on dedicated busses (ie the stereo buss, the guitar buss, the keys buss ...). So I'm just running out a few of the busses, not all of them. This is a lot more flexible and gives me 90% of the analog summing feel with 5% of the hassle.
@Bthelick3 жыл бұрын
This discussion came from early protools, who added a 48bit engine. Although they were first to it, they were on a fixed point math engine for the longest time, long after everyone and even their own native RTAS format had moved to far superior 32bit float. I used to work in music software retail and asked the pro tools rep "how can you charge double for the TDM version when its 24fixed code and dithering everytime, when the RTAS is full 32float?", he just gave me the 'money' hand gesture' The whole summing argument was marketing nonsense.
@CLdwyer3 жыл бұрын
It’s an interesting discussion. The be precise, I actually like the sound of tracks going through a console, not just basic summers. Particularly because analog creates a vibe but usually always creates a new problem (and must decide if it’s worth doing). The following has been my compromise. Tracking - Analog (get as much goodness out of that stage as possible) Mixing - Digital (precise and repeatable - except when using “analog modeling” plugins) Mastering (digital with in-line hardware insert- if necessary) Analog can create vibe or create problems. Digital may be precise to a fault. Pick your battle.
@RobMitshi Жыл бұрын
I also think it is no problem to create the analogue sound artificially ITB, at least to the point where even producers doubt which is what. It takes an experienced master's ears or a serious audiophile to tell them apart.
@calleask3 жыл бұрын
i skipped the intro and thought the analog was the lower mixbus, and i really liked it. Then i zoomed in and saw it was the digital. It has more 3d!
@johnthecreative3 жыл бұрын
thanks but I left when you said you were only doing 4 stems. It takes more than that for maximum differences to be heard. you are summing essentially in the mastering stage, which is a little too late.
@thevicol3 жыл бұрын
Most of the difference signal in the null test is the result of phase shifts at the spectrum edges caused by transformers or HP/LP filters in the form of I/O RC circuits in the summing device. The difference is present but is rather subtle. Interestingly, the digital mix seems to have more impact and more air. The analogue one is more pleasant and rounder but not so spectacular. It seems to me that analogue summing makes sense if it' s permanently installed and affects the decisions made at the mixing stage. Limited number of channels forces the grouping strategy.
@nickskywalker25683 жыл бұрын
Did you make sure the null comparison was really precise? Some latency could have been introduced in the analog signal, that would completely kill the comparison.
@Whiteseastudio3 жыл бұрын
Yes, REAPER has a cool trick to really match it
@cURLybOi3 жыл бұрын
@@Whiteseastudio Reaper has a really cool trick for everything :D
@nickskywalker25683 жыл бұрын
@@Whiteseastudio Awesome! The difference is huge!
@pesam643 жыл бұрын
The analog summing is more 3D and that's what you expect.
@scottshouselive56793 жыл бұрын
Coming out my 42" tv cheap speakers, the analog translates with a little more weight. The digital sounds a lil more spikie with the transients. The analog energy "felt" better to me. but right what suits the song better.
@korbykor154610 ай бұрын
Yes. Yes it does!
@audiosounddoctor58343 жыл бұрын
Good comparation ...thnx!
@ramspencer54923 жыл бұрын
Of course it is. The question is more like, what good options are there for ITB? Chris at Airwindows has an interesting option with his channel 7 plugins..... Though, it generally makes your workflow a bit more difficult.
@Tekkerue3 жыл бұрын
Softube's Console One looks freaking incredible. Check out the review by MixbusTV.
@ramspencer54923 жыл бұрын
@@Tekkerue I watched that.... It looks solid for sure. Not in my budget.
@ramspencer54923 жыл бұрын
@@Tekkerue Airwindows console 7 really brings the depth and space and something very analogue. There was a snake oil review on this channel of his tape plug and Chris hasa really good ear and an innovative but unglamorous approach to analogue plugins. The music in his demos on his channel is really weird though..... So you have to get past that if you watch his videos. Patreon supported so it won't cost you to demo them if you're curious....
@ramspencer54923 жыл бұрын
@@Tekkerue also I don't think console one is actually a summing plugin, but rather a series console saturation and channel plugins
@ramspencer54923 жыл бұрын
@@Tekkerue two completely different things. Console 1 I think also had it's own dsp as well as physical interface, which is awesome. Summing is the method of combining different tracks. There's very few plugins that do that. Airwindows console really does that in an innovative way.
@timweinheimer13 жыл бұрын
I think you can get the best out of both if you can warm the audio along the singal path. Use a good DAW interface like the Steinberg U44R that Robert Neuv helped design before he passed away.I also have an old Yamaha MTX-8 Multi Track cassette Porta Studio with inns & outs to run tracks through.
@m.o.n.d.e.g.r.e.e.n Жыл бұрын
*ronald nheiv
@mrkd4del3 жыл бұрын
You are going to have differences and coloration from not only you DAC's but also in the console your going to pick up color from the transformers.
@louisjans94503 жыл бұрын
Digital is mixing with bricks, analog is mixing with pillows.
@BarryLimestone3 жыл бұрын
Aren't there many commercial summing rack solutions with built in conversion and recall? That would make some elements you mentioned (for instance the fact that summing makes sharing difficult) easier, although the other person would obviously still need the same summing mixer unit. For instance something like the SSL Sigma (now discontinued I believe), and the 8816 by NEVE. It would be interesting if you looked into the 'colour' format as well ,particularly for summing. I guess the whole Idea of that format is adding subtle analog flavour to digital sessions, seeing they call them 'analog plugins'.
@olofolofsson85443 жыл бұрын
The analog one is louder to my ears. Just a little, but enough to skew the test. I could be wrong, but that's definitely my impression.
@BullyMaguire4ever Жыл бұрын
Wow the null test returned quite a lot of difference.
@AlldeLucas3 жыл бұрын
I would love to see you trying out/comparing the hand-made tube summing from luthier Lisciel Franco. Or any other equipment he makes, like the tube compressors.
@dnashofficial3 жыл бұрын
digital sounds "cleaner" and more precise. it also feels as though it's lacking a bit of fullness and depth. analog brings those features out at the expense of a little "crispness". definitely a "what is best for the song" issue, and not a "one is bad" kind of thing. as you said, flavours. i'd like to see the same comparison on a track with, say, 32 channels instead of what appears to be 3. i have a feeling the differences may be more obvious when a complete mix is being processed.
@scottshouselive56793 жыл бұрын
And should only be done during mixing and mastering. So the song will play on everyone's systems. But that would be the time to decide on what sounds good for the song. In the box just keeps getting better and better.. I know a great mastering engineer mastering all in the box with headphones, and traveling the world doing it.. :) No studio needed. Been doing it since 2011
@georgepelekoudis3 жыл бұрын
Wow, the axes are out among the comments 🪓 The analog sounds better. I’m sure you can replicate it with something like the UAD series of Proprietary-DSP-dependant plugins, though. If you’re clients request a hybrid mix, charge more, and make them sign a waiver that recalls will not be recalled 100% 😅
@MellowXBrew3 жыл бұрын
The stereo spread of the second set is audibly wider. Top ends smoother and the mids become more vibrant
@user-yk4gd1fl4z3 жыл бұрын
yes thats exactly what I heard. On monitors.
@deadalonethe13 жыл бұрын
Once you test different kind of digital summing, you might want to check out the Analog Obsession offering once again. There are all kinds of transformer emulations and what not and they are also light on the CPU. It might be interesting to see what happens if you throw them on a bunch of summing channels and channel those into a mixbus. Maybe it gives you an even better sound compared to the Harrison stuff. Who knows? :)
@butzwonker66323 жыл бұрын
The problem is that there are so many of those saturation and analogue emulation plugins that many mixes are flat-out distorted nowadays. I want to see more plugins that give me that "digital coldness"...
@skinnymash25632 жыл бұрын
For 2nd track definitely Analog is good!!!
@ardonrumnong3 жыл бұрын
I wonder how the UAD Neve/Api summing sounds in comparison to real analog summing...
@dirkchurlish40743 жыл бұрын
probably slightly crispier and flatter, right? airwindows console though...sleeper! have you tried it?
@ardonrumnong3 жыл бұрын
@@dirkchurlish4074 damnnnn that sounds crazyyyyy
@ardonrumnong3 жыл бұрын
@@dirkchurlish4074 i cant wait to get back to the studio room to try this tomorrow
@ardonrumnong3 жыл бұрын
@@dirkchurlish4074 i wonder how it would sound with the softube ssl4000...i mean airwindows on the busses
@dirkchurlish40743 жыл бұрын
@@ardonrumnong i definitely use it in conjunction with saturation plugins. the homie also makes quite a few of those. Desk4--really unique one--and BussColors4 are some of my favorites. I think the "Rock" mode in BussColors is loosely based on SSL impulse responses.
@markussagichnicht54943 жыл бұрын
What about a DIY passive summer ? Extremely cheap and easy to make.
@veikster11653 жыл бұрын
Sounds fun! Could you point me to a video?
@ramspencer54923 жыл бұрын
The analogue vibes that Harrison console has isn't really from the summing. It nulls with straight digital summing.... It's more like some kind of channel saturation and eq. Airwindows has a Actual summing algo but it chances your workflow on most DAWs to implement it