Analyzing Bouncing Attacks

/ cyrusofchaos
/ cyrusofchaos
This is a video featuring the bounce attack as well as its strengths and weaknesses. Fencers whose attacks are featured in the video are Kim Junho, Kim Jung Hwan, Gu Bon Gil, Vincent Anstett, Eli Dershwitz, and Luca Curatoli.
The songs used in the video are Bounce by Calvin Harris and Cool Kids by Echosmith.

[@Red_Zealot]

Thanks for posting this! There really isn't enough quality educational material on fencing beyond the basics.

[@CyrusofChaos]

AKM Pros you're welcome. I completely agree!

[@fred5399]

Check out the Russel swords series

[@jerryduffey1118]

This is one of the best action-strategy fencing videos ever. It is clear in visual and written explanation. You don't even need to pause or rewind it to understand both sides of the situation. Truly, well done.

[@CyrusofChaos]

Jerry Duffey wow thank you. I'm really glad you enjoyed it!

[@hunczar]

Watched when it came out, rewatched now a like a year later. So good!

[@cessaly100]

CyrusofChaos, this is a REALLY excellent video. I deeply appreciate the commentary in-between. That helps a lot! Thanks!

[@CyrusofChaos]

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I've got a few more ideas for analysis videos so look forward to more content coming soon!

[@cessaly100]

excellent! I like watching these to improve!

[@iainmcclure416]

Good insights here. One point to consider: biomechanics. The bouncing action creates energy that can be released into a more explosive action. The last couple of examples show MASSIVE bounces used to unleash extremely fast actions.

[@geringasG]

You're talking about plyometrics. It's the principle that kinetic energy can be stored in tendons on the eccentric action of a joint. Then the force curve through the returning concentric action on the joint is maximum throughout the range of motion. In contrast, from rest the muscle produces just a gaussian of force with one peak somewhere in the middle of the range. To be technical the energy isn't created by the bounce its stored elastically in tendons as if they were rubber bands and the snap of the band is helping the force curve through the sluggish beginning. It's the same reason that your vertical in a high jump with a running start is higher than from standing, transforming horizontal kinetic energy into vertical energy. A regular advance lunge will achieve the same top speed as bounce lunge but because of plyometrics the bounce is helping snap horizontal energy from 0 to max. It's like the inverse of a high jump. You captured that sense of change of speed when you said it's explosive. If you really want to defend that change of speed, what about mirroring the attacker with a defensive bounce like they do in tennis?

[@evanw.b.4026]

Great video. I've found this to be a great way to prevent your opponent from accurately measuring the distance and range of your attack(s).

[@craigvandevooren2341]

Your range is the length of your arm if you are in the air.

[@TheJeitinho]

There is a physiological advantage to what you refer to as "bounce". There's research that was published in 2017. In it the researchers describe the toe contribution avoidance (TCA) technique employed in classic fencing footwork as ineffective and inefficient. This is because it doesn't make effective use of the stretch-shortening cycle (SSC). By using the ball of the foot instead, the fencer leverages the elastic storage transmitted through the Achilles tendon as well as greater force contribution from the quadriceps muscle. It's also a matter of movement economy, as well. Now, this shift in footwork style may take some time for fencers to master. That may be why you're able to see some flaws. However, this may simply be a period of adjustment among sabre fencers. Certainly, epee fencers have used the bounce for some time. Now, This is not just me popping off. As someone fascinated with the SSC and elastic energy, I found the article both fascinating and quite believable. It was backed up with EMG (electromyography) testing, as well.

[@SuperSohaizai]

I'm interested in how you say this is applied in Epee. Is this just similar to Balestra, where you close in distance similar to jumping and attack with a lunge next?

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

Do you have a link to this study? this confirms what i have thought and experienced for some time in my own approach to fencing or any kind of fighting footwork for that matter.

[@TheJeitinho]

esgrima xativa I only have a pdf. Find me on FB. PM me your email address. I’ll send it to you.

[@kushgroover54]

Does this apply to footwork in foil? I know someone above asked about ballestras as well

[@craigvandevooren2341]

I don't think you know what "classic fencing footwork" is. You never read any of Nadi's work?

[@qwertywasd751]

You should do more of these techniques analysis videos used by fencers I rlly enough this content Edit: enjoy*

[@TheFeilong88]

Thank you for this fine presentation! It was very valuable to me.

[@feelingcrafty]

Love this video and your explanations!

[@donaldbadowski290]

I'm reminded of a story I heard about how we got the bent arm attack in foil. During the 1976 Olympics an Italian fencer started pulling his arm back and running forward. Opponents didn't know what to do till it was too late. Traditionally, they should have made an attack into that big preparation, but were too surprised a world class fencer would do that. I never saw any of the 1976 Olympic foil so I can't speak to whether this is true or not, but we are stuck with bent arm attacks, and the mentality that anything coming forward is an attack. So say the refs. When I first saw this bouncing by the Koreans, I thought Here we go again. A lot of times the bouncing fencer is bouncing straight up, not coming forward at all. Of course he's doing that to avoid committing, to frustrate the opponent, etc. You might argue that coming forward is a threat to an opponent, but simply moving up and down? No. But if an opponent does attempt attack in prep against the vertical bouncer, I think still give it to the bouncer. End result, no arm and no forward motion still counts as an attack. Any refs out there care to straighten me out?

[@CyrusofChaos]

no, youre right, these days thats how it is. back when the timing was short there was a shift towards "two lights is attack" because it was already so difficult for the attacker with the short timing that if the attacker was able to hit the defender they just gave it as attack, basically no matter how the "attack" was executed. thats when this type of bouncing attack really started to develop. now that the timing is wider and its becoming easier and easier for the attacker we may eventually see a shift back towards two light attack in preparation on the long attacks. unfortunately it has not happened yet but maybe it will soon!

[@BetterExplanation]

I would love to have referees respond to your comments. From watching KZbin videos it seems like some referees will consider it attack on preparation when a fencer bounces without moving and doesn't extend their arm. Also I feel like referees have different rules outside of the inside 4m after on guard.

[@CyrusofChaos]

I wouldn't hold your breath as far as getting a ref to comment here And yes, there are slightly different conventions inside and outside the first zone. In my opinion the reason for that is that in the first zone right of way is still being established and is somewhat fragile and certain things which would not normal cause you to lose right of way elsewhere well cause you to lose it here

[@donaldbadowski290]

They absolutely have different rules for 4m (off the line) and after one fencer clearly loses ROW. As for refs? I know some highly ranked local refs. In face, one was my student 6 years ago. But none of them have dealt with the Korean national team, or their imitators.

[@donaldbadowski290]

Agreed, but I think sabre refs give way too much leeway to the attacker. Even if the Right did fail on a lunge, Left should still have to commit some arm as they come forward. But you never really get what you wanted for Christmas, and this year won't be any different. To the point, watching a lot of the Korean teams' bouts over the last 10 years, you definitely see them bounce a little backwards on occasion. My guess is that their opponents can't tell that from a little forward motion, due to all the vertical motion going on. If they did and they attacked into it, would the ref give them the call? This is not the same thing as a traditional (joke) marching attack, were fencer Right coming forward may jump back, half retreat or retreat on the attempt of Left to pull off a counterattack. The difference in this case is that Right can see Left is trying to counterattack and reacting to it, letting it fail and re-establishing ROW. In the case of the Korean bounce back, it seems to me they are doing it at will, simply to keep the opponent from setting them up (time and distance).

[@johnfaustin2978]

It's the same strategy with taekwondo sparring. Foot work is really importance.

[@rayculetetra5910]

thanks man very appreciated

[@CyrusofChaos]

raycule tetra you got it

[@Voiv]

Worth also noting the physiological impact of bouncing to generate pace through plyometrics. Its not purely tactical

[@CyrusofChaos]

you know, i was actually looking into showing that in the planning phase of the video but couldn't find concrete examples to demonstrate it/support that claim

[@Voiv]

@@CyrusofChaos check out stuff on the stretch shortening cycle, that should help 🙂

[@CyrusofChaos]

sorry, i meant example fencing clips

[@ericdew2021]

Many years ago at a NAC, I was watching Daryl Homer doing some bounces in his warm-up footwork. I did a double-take when he bounced up and sort of froze in the air like Wile E Coyote in a roadrunner cartoon. I don't know what he did, and it could have been just a mirage, but I looked at that and thought, "WTF?"

[@craigvandevooren2341]

Must have been the shoes.

[@angiecheung1054]

I was wondering how you would defend bouncing attacks then? I am finding it difficult to that any tips would be greatly appreciated

[@bongoboy2716]

thanks

[@CyrusofChaos]

Michael Nil you got it!

[@tremendous1163]

3:47 yea but what if the defender is also bouncing . legit

[@redlava6190]

I fence epee so sad me

[@hyunyoungkim1302]

Pop

[@LM-jq4os]

Please explain why is the bouncing good for keeping safe space, can't get it. I understand that the bouncy attacker can save up some mental capacity, but this is all? Sure, it can confuse your opponent in some cases, but the fact that you can't control your feet is a far bigger disadvantage.

[@raoulkurvitz6305]

I understand, that as far as contemporary refereés pay that much attention for your advancing with feet - that's how they define an attack - and while you're bouncing forward you're still in an advantage of your attack, and you've got much more liberty in your movements with your hand meanwhile, which finally would inititialize the attack as such, if you do it with your hand in right moment. Complicated? 🙂 Well, this is just another thing what the Koreans discovered in the rules, and how they changed the whole game. But unfortunately for them, players like Dershwitz and Anstett took over the same strategy, and thus there is a competition about it, with A, D, C (Curatoli) & Sz(Szilagyi) at first, and now with many more. Well: no disasvantage in the footwork about it: while bouncing you would be always ready to get stretched forward by your backward (pushing) leg, while your hand just flies forward beforehands.

[@redlava6190]

Bouncing only for Sabre

[@CyrusofChaos]

YB YoungBlood the same strategy works against someone who really excessively waits to finish in foil like Garozzo

[@vladimirhiticas7518]

Are you a fencer?Cyrusof?

[@CyrusofChaos]

I used to be! Now I'm just a washed commentator/referee/videographer/analyst/coach/enthusiast in no particular order who fences for fun 🙃

[@vladimirhiticas7518]

@@CyrusofChaos so you still fence good job.

[@MihailEtropolski]

No credit to bouncing OG Becca Ward? ;)

[@CyrusofChaos]

Mihail Etropolski it's amazing how quickly you stop being relevant when you're done fencing isn't it?

[@samsignorelli]

Parry-riposte....touche Cyrus!

[@garchompdude]

I'm shocked you didn't bring up Tokunan. Since he's a good example of bouncing too much

[@CyrusofChaos]

was trying to only use footage from the top 8 of world cups this year. sadly he didnt make any finals

[@garchompdude]

CyrusofChaos that's fair. He did have that bout against szilagyi in Cancun that was a good contrast of styles. But I understand your reasoning

[@garchompdude]

Although I should say I don't think Tokunan is good enough to make a top 8 he way he fences right now

[@CyrusofChaos]

garchompdude hence his lack of presence in this video 😬

[@joechen31]

No Won wooyoung?

[@CyrusofChaos]

Joe Chen only from world cup finals this year dude

[@craigvandevooren2341]

Hahahhah - "during the attacker's time in the air they will not be able to change directions as quickly"!!! Please tell us how any human powered object can change direction "in the air". And jet packs do not count. This is also why the flunge is a modern abomination in fencing - it is a complete abondonment of all movement control. There is no attack if the fencer is bouncing and not extending his/her hand. It's real simple. When the hand comes back - as most of these "bouncing" videos show happening over and over - attack is over. It's just BSing refs that can't tell you where or when a "bouncing atttack" begins. "without it seeming like" the reality that is occurring in front of your eyes . . . . . It is nonsense to say that "it is difficult to land simple actions on someone who bounces". Just nonsense.

[@CyrusofChaos]

Sounds like you really know your stuff! You should be a fencing coach!