Analyzing Evil: The Joker From The Dark Knight

[@JoshuaCastillo6309]

“I believe that what doesn’t kill you makes you… stranger.” He’s suffered trauma of some sort.

[@lukejones0826]

Hm yes the floor here is made out of floor

[@sludgerat444]

Great observation

[@godisdeadist]

To be honest, I think that phrase could just as well apply to apathy. Whatever doesn't kill you (or stimulate you in any way) simple makes you .. stranger.

[@makisjnx007]

Or not… Thats the Joker point

[@diy_mushroomguy]

Only thing I gather is you can't trust anything he says. He lies quite a few times and it's pretty obvious that they want that to be known.

[@GhostInPajamas]

The most fascinating thing about heaths joker is he doesn’t even seem like a person, he’s like some cosmic entity, an unknowable force of nature. It’s hard to comprehend that beneath the makeup is an actual human that eats, sleeps, and grew up from infancy. I want to see how he acts when he’s alone

[@jamesjoy7547]

I imagine when he's alone he sits and stares in silence His Joker persona is performative, something he does to prove a point Inside, whoever he once was is...gone

[@mutegamer98]

It's just a fucking movie it ain't that deep😂

[@indio4-215]

​@@mutegamer98 In YOUR flimsy opinion, it's "just a fucking movie", but to people with actual braincells who appreciate works of art like the Dark Knight, it's far more than simply a film with real depth to it that makes one contemplate. Now, if you're done posting idiotic, juvenile comments (emojis included) with nothing in the way of substance, see yourself out.

[@stonedjamie]

@@mutegamer98 there's nothing wrong with theorizing about a movie

[@jacobjonesofmagna]

​@@mutegamer98you're missing out

[@keben5400]

Out of every version of the Joker, this is the only one who hates being called insane.

[@IncredibleFulk1]

My memory can be off but I remember Jack Nicholson’s Joker seemed a bit annoyed at Vikki Vale calling him insane with his reply “I thought I was a Pisces” sounding a bit annoyed. It’s been a long time though.

[@BoulderBoulder_]

@@IncredibleFulk1 no ur right Heath tried to make his joker similar to Jack’s joker to an extent and mentioned this

[@ZoeSimza]

I think that's done specifically to show how insane he really is. It's always the craziest people who think they're completely sane and rational, and they hate being told that they're deranged.

[@jamesjoy7547]

@@ZoeSimza yes, from his point of view, he's the reasonable one. It's everyone else who's crazy

[@sabir1208]

​@@ZoeSimza sounds like my mom

[@6266jamal]

“You’re crazy” “I’m not….no I’m not” such an underrated line

[@dancooke8811]

I've literally heard Joker say he was 🤪 in The Killing Joke

[@reinaldocaraballo4657]

The way he says it it is utterly perfectly like he adlibs so much of this performance even Nolan said that it was just him being him being freelancing nuance just adding things body movements characteristics the eyes looking like a cycle looking normal looking angry looking sad he could don't he's so versatile and the way he says it if you look at it the way his eyes change and when they shift over to gamble it's like I hate you I'm going to kill you like it's an insult to tell him that he's crazy how dare you say that I'm crazy I'm not crazy you're crazy like it disgust him to even be identified like that I love that and nice of you to pick that up

[@JayCity10]

Let's be honest, I never really cared for them, the innocent or otherwise. -Joker Lannister

[@minnalmurali3102]

Chicanery

[@erikpuckett7485]

the joker from the killing joke and from the dark knight are two different jokers.

[@PFCwasted]

watching this as a veteran with PTSD, ive held the theory he served for awhile. Saying "when soldiers die no one cares" is...rather specific in my opinion. It appears the joker has recieved the heart of darkness, followed every step.

[@theahearn2658]

When soldiers die nobody can freaks out because it's all according to plan. If I say a game bangers going to get shot nobody freaks out. But when I say I'm going to kill one Teensy little Mayor everybody lose their mind. People expect soldiers to die or at least come back broken. Which is a sad statement in itself being the son of a veteran. But nobody expects someone actually follow through with killing a Mayor because they know how much trouble that would bring down on their heads. Also, thank you for your service. I'm sure people saying that gets kind of old and stale but it means a lot to some of us.

[@Khoros-Mythos]

I don't think so, just look at how poorly he handles firearms. I don't think he correctly uses any weapon in the entire movie.

[@RafitoOoO]

I think it's not specific, he just means soldiers are expected to die for others so that's why no one panics when one does.

[@charliemcpherson6299]

I have a pet theory that he was in Special Forces. Possibly Green Berets, CIA, one of those things the Pentagon wanna keep off the books. Secretive shit, not what they play on CNN or anything. Joker is obviously skilled in urban war tactics, interrogation, explosives and weapons. He might have been sent on a mission expected to perish in execution of that mission, but survived and returned against all odds, only to find he had been erased from the system. Thence comes the Joker, hysterically hell-bent on bringing down the society that had disavowed him.

[@lazarussolomon3541]

@@charliemcpherson6299 that might make sense. Maybe he is one of those CIA handmade psycho terrorists, like the ones from the wars in Latin America. What if the cia or another organization made him this way as someone to cripple the enemy within which is why (as the former commenter put it) while he shows a great deal of knowledge on some militaristic things like tactics and guerrilla warfare He also has a bit of amateur too, like him miss handling firearms. He was likely deemed a failure and so the makers took him out of the system but he managed to escape. And that could be why he is so bitter at society

[@haustyl12]

“It’s not about the money, it’s about sending a message.” “Everything burns”

[@commentcopbadge6665]

Even water.

[@jeremybrooks335]

Best quote from the movie. Period.

[@monsterinhead214]

I'm only burning my haff.

[@originalketchup7498]

Does no one ever notice that the joker holds the hammer back with 2 face? He was at no risk, it was just another game.

[@FaceFamous]

@@originalketchup7498 yea I peep that.👍 He's always ahead of the game

[@PhantomSavage]

Complete fiction based on assumption here, but; Joker mentions to Harvey Dent at one point as part of his monologue to explain his ideology is "A truck load of soldiers gets blown up, nobody panics." I always thought that was a weirdly specific thing to mention even among this Joker's wild rants. In my mind, I always imagined this is how he was injured in his military service, being the victim and sole survivor of an IED, giving him possibly brain damage as well as a piece of shrapnel that lodged itself into the side of his face which had to be removed later. I also liked to imagine that, given Joker is such a good tactican, he wasn't just a normal soldier either, but possibly more of a spec-op unit like Delta Force, maybe even a unit acting as covert guerilla fighters in enemy territory under a classified operation. This would explain Joker's extreme skill set and knowledge on dismantling established order and authority, as well as his familiarity with military grade firearms and explosive devices. It also stands to reason that if Joker were part of some kind of spec-op unit like this, its very possible his identification records are either classified, deleted, or marked deceased upon his recruitment, and this along either a wiped or classified military record would make it nigh impossible for him to get the kind of medical help and treatment a severely traumatized war veteran needs to maintain stability, which could further add to his disillusionment with the system and society. This would also explain why Batman and the Police can't seem to find any identification records in their investigation, they may either no longer exist or be behind a high security clearance, which neither the Police or Batman at this time have access to. I also like to believe his wife's face was cut by the mob intentionally to match his own, which has a sense of cruelty about it that seems pretty on-point for the Gotham underworld. For his or her gambling debts (or something else) I don't know, but I feel that when Joker is telling Rachel his scar story there's some truth to it, he sounded quite emotional when he said "She couldn't stand the sight of me!" even though that could just be good acting on his part. In his weird, twisted, and PTSD-affected way of processing information I really do think he cut the other side of his face himself to show her "he didn't care about the scars." But his show of affection completely backfired, and the grim visage probably only further reminded her that her husband is unhinged and will never be able to give her the stability in her life that she needs, which could lead to her suicide, which Joker immediately reflects off himself and projects it onto the mob, system, and society that allowed all this tragedy to happen. Her death makes him snap, essentially, and he was already a very dangerous and very damaged individual that was being neglected before it. Once he snaps, he basically becomes an extremely sophisticated mass shooter... he has no objective other than complete chaos and murder, but this individual in particular has training and experience in disabling structures of power through psychological and guerilla warfare, and he uses these tactics to unleash as much chaos as he possibly can. He doesn't even expect to get that far, but he's so good at what he does and he's so well versed in these kind of tactics, he gets to a point where he's turned an entire city against itself and even the national guard has to come in to help stabilize the region and evacuate the mass exodus of people leaving the city. TL:DR: Joker is more violent Jason Bourne that blames the world, not just Treadstone... and also likes clowns.

[@noblepolygon8694]

This was a great explanation!

[@DirtySouthJR]

I wouldn't mind seeing a movie explore this very idea. C I A operative turned domestic terrorist Joker. Excellent idea for a back story unlike the recent Joker movie which was also really good. ** Actually a TV series would be a better.

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

Great theory! Sounds like if John Rambo, Jason Bourne or John Wick turns to the dark side.

[@doublep1980]

Yes, the theory that the Ledger Joker is a former black ops operative that went insane and then rogue makes sense. He clearly is trained in military weapons, explosives & hand-to-hand combat, knows psychological warfare/interrogation techniques, is able to infiltrate highly secured places like the Mafia meeting or the hospital were Dent is. He knows how to manipulate people and everything he does is meticulously planned, down to the smallest detail, even if he tells Dent: ''I don't do plans..''. That's just another one of of his lies. Just look at the bank robbery, when the movie starts. That's some Mission Impossible level planning. Plus, as mentioned, this theory would explain why they can't identify him.

[@TempoDrift1480]

Don't tell me I have to watch this now. I don't do movies and I don't do fiction.

[@DashXero]

My theory on the Joker's scars is simple: He was lying to everyone. However, I suspect he would have told Batman the truth.

[@theahearn2658]

I truly agree with this statement. I think maybe he put some Speckles of Truth in there but not the truth the people seem to think. For instance about the wife getting in deep and she got her face cut up like that so he did it to make her happy. I think his dad did cut his face like that. Because look at how Jagged some of the scars are look how the the tissue where the cuts are is just a weird bubbly groody looking melted mess. It's like his dad took a lighter to his face and did it to cauterize his wound.

[@lukehobbs3177]

I wonder if he has memory loss and he himself does not even know where the scars come from

[@thesecondYouTube]

He kind of told Harvey Dent the truth. 'Gangbangers and truck load of soldiers.' Edit:This what he might have told Batman. He grew up with gangbangers with all it's dangers and got cut in a revenge attack after knocking off a fierce rival gang or something similar. Later on in life he is recruited into a special op with the CIA bla bla bla. The other side of his face was injured from being with that truck load of soldiers.

[@futurestoryteller]

I always liked that when he tells Gamble how he got his scars he tells a very plausible story, but he sounds like he's making it up as he goes along, then he tells Dawes a much more unlikely story, but he tells it straight through like he doesn't even need to think about it

[@BigBeefNCheddar]

I disagree. Throughout the entire movie he is attempting to demonstrate that everything is subjective: there is no absolute purity, no objective morality, and no objective truth. If everything is subjective and conditional, the truth is whatever he says it is when he says it. What actually happened to him is meaningless, as he is beyond our notions of objective truth. Something happened to him, but the only truth behind his scars is what he says happened to him at that moment he says it. To extrapolate, we continuously recount our warped memories that often differ significantly from the truth. What the Joker is doing is taking this to its extreme-if we are warping our perception and recollection of the past (even if we are only doing so unknowingly), what does it matter if we continuously just create new mythos for ourselves as needed? We are never telling the objective truth.

[@raged_phx6440]

Fun fact: In this movie, joker constantly licking his lips was ledger annoyed by a problem with face prosthetics, but it eventually became part of the character

[@Senate300]

The constant licking of the lips gave the Joker an animalistic reptilian quality.

[@watchulookinat271]

Not reptilian but more of a dog. Remember what he said like a dog that doesn't know what to do with freedom when he caught one.

[@vercingetorixavernian8978]

It’s actually a long term side-effect of schizophrenia medicine 💊 Ledger did his homework

[@generalerica4123]

@@vercingetorixavernian8978I always thought he was licking his scars, keeping them moist so that they don’t hurt as much.

[@jacobcobb731]

it was to reapply his scaring make up

[@Adrian21]

"I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve." ~Joker

[@fuckyoutube5863]

Curb

[@bloodraven1190]

"I'm gonna make this pencil, dissappear".

[@keyworksales6241]

@@fuckyoutube5863 it's curve lol

[@fuckyoutube5863]

@@keyworksales6241 curbve

[@keyworksales6241]

@@fuckyoutube5863 this is the only way now

[@Aaron-mj9ie]

Heath ledger did an 11/10 job of this role.

[@ClassicKrusty]

Yup, we lost a TRUE superstar in Heath.😭

[@gabbyaoquadrado6870]

1000/10

[@thetribalist6923]

@@gabbyaoquadrado6870 still an understatement.

[@FriendlyBatDoom]

1000000/10 let's be honest.

[@hanashbinasif2586]

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000/10

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

"If I have to have a backstory...I'd prefer it to be multiple choice."- Joker

[@Cegorachthelaughinggod]

The Killing Joke

[@EMG_Iman]

Shoutout to Mark Hamil

[@Paul-bi4wj]

Ahhh y e s the one time joker broke the bat... Or so we think.

[@Cegorachthelaughinggod]

@@Paul-bi4wj Yes-it was left deliciously ambiguous x}

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

@Peppi Roni Uh...you know this is the Dark Knight Joker in the video and my quote is from the Killing Joke, right? Also, while I didn't care for the latest Joker film myself, it's more of a critique on the failings of society and mental health programs from that era than a comic book film, Phoenix gave an incredible performance regardless of your personal opinions on the film itself, drastically losing weight and sleep for the role.

[@vincentshadetree]

The line where he goes "don't talk like one of them, you're not" it shows the kind of tribalism that the Joker shares with Batman that they are both insane

[@Rangoon_Dip]

-you’ll be in a padded cell forever -oh perhaps we could share one !

[@shozanhanma2709]

@@Rangoon_Dip PURE! JOKER! LINE!

[@YourLocalCopiumDealer]

I don't disagree. He dresses up like a giant bat to fight crime. Batsy might not be evil, but he is absolutely insane.

[@Berserker3624]

I don't think he's 'insane', I think he's unstable but not crazy since his mind doesn't change the world around to fit how he views it. I think he uses 'batman' as a way for him to let go of his trauma and get Bruce to see that their is justice in the world

[@jasonvoorheescampblood]

@@YourLocalCopiumDealer that doesnt make him insane

[@n.a.8925]

We lost such a talent with Ledger’s death. I would have been so curious to have seen what the third Nolan Batman film would have been with him in it.

[@GabagoolGang]

I saw a fan comic that shows Bane going to Joker's cell to release him but decides to leave him in his cell because he is too insane and unpredictable.

[@seymourbuttz2253]

We really did Natalie. We really did 😞. It's so sad that Heath has been gone for 13 years already. I really was hoping that he would be able to appear as the Joker in the 3rd installment, but it sadly never turned out that way.

[@shawnd507]

I would've loved to see a Heath Ledger Joker origin movie. I enjoyed Phoenix in his Joker movie but damn, imagine what Ledger might have done.

[@seymourbuttz2253]

@@shawnd507 So true bro

[@HaroldTheBad]

@@GabagoolGang can u give me the fan comics link? pwease

[@aboynamedRufio]

Joker only wants it to SEEM like he’s doing random things, when he’s planned everything out medical meticulously. Case in point: when he goes to see Dent in the hospital and puts the revolver to his head, his thumb is still on the hammer. Even if Harvey pulled the trigger, nothing would have happened. He just needed to have Harvey think he was in control. This is similar to how Harvey uses his coin; only he knows its double headed (besides Rachel). He too gives the illusion of choice

[@natedawg912]

You can’t stop a gun from firing by having your finger on the hammer. There’s too much force behind it if the trigger gets pulled.

[@billymays__2839]

@@natedawg912 you can, just not in this case, if you wanted to uncock a hammer of a revolver you can by having pressure on the hammer, pulling the trigger so the hammer uncocks and then slowly lowering it down to reset it.

[@jarnodatema]

Also when he’s giving his speech to the ferry’s, he’s reading from a note

[@cht2162]

Joker is fate personified.

[@afatcatfromsweden]

@@natedawg912 you’re wrong. They’re designed so that you’re supposed to be able to stop it with your thumb, that way you can actually uncock it by pulling the trigger.

[@concretecountertop]

I read a theory that the joker actually tailors his stories to his victims to psychologically affect them more. I always thought that was interesting.

[@idrinkmilk282]

Tryna see how that theory would apply to his story to gamble lmao..

[@dancooke8811]

I don't care Ledger isn't The Joker! Best Live Action version was Jack Nicholson.

[@thedarkestknight8381]

@@dancooke8811 😂

[@thedarkestknight8381]

@@dancooke8811 Nicholson is so one dimensional no depth or philosophy behind him

[@bugvineboom]

@@dancooke8811 they are both good jokers in their own ways. nicholson made the joker more like how he is in the comics, but ledger made the joker deep and more real.

[@BingFox]

Something that always stood out to me about this version of the Joker is that despite all the horrifying things he does, profanity isn't one of those things.

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

Normal people swear, that’s why.

[@Highly3666]

@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 ...what? That makes no sense everybody curses sane or not

[@mc_zittrer8793]

@@Highly3666 Not necessarily. Neurosis is weird like that.

[@Highly3666]

@@mc_zittrer8793 ah OK

[@Mebble]

@@Highly3666 I think it's because using curse words is a way for people to use "powerful" words to give greater impact to what you're saying but Joker doesn't need that to say his points or be terrifying

[@mojo6112]

It's still being talked about even after 13 years. A masterpiece it is

[@mdgcwood]

Yes Yoda it is 😉

[@mojo6112]

@michela del torre i mean close enough

[@theluckypepsi3277]

@michela del torre you sure?

[@ggeorge6458]

Ways of the force I will show you

[@floatinggoose9197]

He* The movies itself sucked, seriously. Heath made the movie, made it everything. When people talk about TDK, They don't talk about about writing or 1000 plot and story holes. They talk about Joker. He, was a masterpiece

[@harrisonmccartney4878]

5 things stick out to me about this Joker's origin. 1.) His card reveal at the end of Batman Begins is sorted in evidence by a cop named J. Kerr (Joe Kerr being a known alias of Joker). 2.) Joker's first line is "I believe that whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you...stranger". This implies that something, at some point, tried to kill him but didn't, and this led to him being the way he is. 3.) Joker claims in his first origin story that his father was an abusive alcoholic, yet gets mad at a man who says "We're not intimidated by thugs" for reminding him of his father, implying that Joker's dad was probably more of an upstanding citizen than he is willing to admit. 4.) Joker says in an offhand line during the Harvey Dent truck chase "I like this job, I like it." which is kind of a weird thing for him to say. The themes of the first and last movies are of the League of Shadows trying to destroy Gotham, and this is also the aim of the Joker. By calling his actions here a "job" is it possible that he was a special agent of the League created specifically to fight Batman at his own game after Ra's Al Ghul's death? 5.) Joker harbors strong opinions about the police and corruption in Gotham ("Their morals, their code, is a bad joke, dropped at the first sign of trouble.") Most of his primary targets are either members of the mob, who control the police, or the police and justice system itself. He's not averse to killing innocent people in the process, but they're only caught in his crossfire. His real targets are law enforcement and the mob. With this knowledge and the fact that Joker's father was apparently the kind of man who would stand up to "thugs" (like an upstanding cop), J. Kerr being the name on the evidence bag, AND Joker's statement about his survival of what didn't kill him making him "stranger", bearing obvious scars from some botched attempt on his life, I think it's likely that Joker is actually a former cop who was genuine about fighting crime at one time, only for his earnestness to nearly cost him his life when he tried to weed out the corrupt elements in Gotham's police force. This explains why he was able to fill out evidence correctly, and he also knows the procedure for the 21 gun salute, and even has a police uniform and knows about the mob's connections within the police. It explains why he targets the mob and Gotham's police indiscriminately, and why he wants Batman to join him. They have the same goals of ridding Gotham of crime, but Batman is still playing by the rules and allies himself with the police, whom the Joker knows better than to trust. In the end, despite sending Harvey Dent into a psychotic break, leaving dead civilians in his wake, and forcing Batman to take the fall for Harvey's crimes, the Joker actually succeeds in eliminating every boss in the mob, and killing most of the corrupt elements in law enforcement. Whatever revenge he was seeking, he apparently got it by the end of the film, as we learn in Dark Knight Rises the Dent Act helped eradicate organized crime.

[@twiceshy9773]

Nice breakdown!!👍👍

[@gilbertohernandez9223]

I like this theory

[@jinx8624]

that actually makes a lot of sense

[@nono9543]

I really do believe Heath Ledger intended this character to be a former veteran of sorts. With no superpowers really existing in the Nolanverse, it is possible that's where he learned how to fight and dismantle infrastructures/foreign governments. That could also explain why he doesn't have a name show up in the public database, he was a former special ops member. It's scary to think about a veteran using what he learned against the people he was hired to protect, destroying the way of life he was assigned to preserve.

[@remainprofane7732]

He might’ve even been ordered to topple a democracy, by his own democracy. It’d explain his extreme cynicism and his opinion on humanities true nature

[@Strangelove657]

I agree, I've heard this "spec ops" veteran theory before and it's very fitting although it's likely not in the script. It certainly explains his skills with firearms, explosives and overall tactics.

[@nono9543]

@@Strangelove657 Yeah. Many Veterans get payed and trained to dismantle foreign powers all the time so I can easily see a character like this using way he knows on American soil.

[@TCFamas]

Like the idea but thinking more of special ops...rather than secret agent.

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

I also stand by the ex-military theory, but more specifically, military intelligence, specialized in counter-terrorism, psychology, interrogation and hand-to-hand combat. I emphasis on the psychology bit, it is proven to be his ultimate strength - he understands too well how to play the mind game and despite he shows that he has no empathy, he knows all the weaknesses of humanity. Based on how he handled everything in the film, he could have been a very talented and well-trained military intelligence officer, even most accomplished and honored (may even have lots of medals), that was ultimately abandoned by his own country during a very dangerous mission. He also reacts very strongly to the word 'FREAK', now here is my theory, it is likely he was a very rebellious child and his father was not a drunk, but perhaps well-educated, serious and demanding like the senator he threatened, and whenever he was naughty, his father would call him a 'Freak', this childhood trauma would cause him to react to the word so strongly. Now, in order for one to change so drastically, one must be very devoted and firm in their former beliefs. Therefore, whoever he was, he must have been extremely devoted and thrown himself in, he may have been in a very high place, so high and admired, for him to fall so far and so low to be the Joker, the ultimate agent of evil and chaos (Reminds us of someone? Harvey Dent).

[@DirtySouthJR]

"Do I look like a man with a plan? I'm like a dog chasing cars, I wouldn't know what to do if I caught it" The Joker uses his bizarre appearance and mannerisms to lull people into a sense of thinking he is purely insane and not a clever mastermind.

[@WallKenshiro]

The devil is a liar.

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

Batman as Bruce Wayne: No you’re not.

[@yoshijb9428]

But his is completely insane but who's to say that he could also be a brilliant criminal. Insanity is not based on IQ. That's what beautiful about his character. He understands human psychology. So he flexed his wit through his many different "masks" of insanity he may be percieved to "wear."

[@HoradricGuitar]

That may be true. However, if it was, then why did he feel insulted when the criminal called him crazy in the beginning? If appearing crazy was his objective, that is.

[@kaduzad]

He is insanity incarnate, but being insane does not mean dumb, afterall many genius individuals were insanes take Goebbels as an exemple

[@SenorGato237]

The lack of coherent backstory is one of the key points that made this Joker so terrifying, he came from nowhere, and he came from everywhere. He is the chaos and darkness within us all, and lurking around every corner, but impossible to find and root out.

[@tailanthaiboxing]

Exactly, i dont get why people make up stuff that clearly isnt in the movie... what is there is whats there, and nothing more, thats the point. The joker card, in a lot of card games it can replace any card, thats the reason he is always making some bullshit up, because he doesnt need a backstory, its not important. Its in its core philosophically contradictory to try to invent a backstory when the characters whole essence is based on trying to get as close to an ideal of pure chaos. The character is introduced in the story in the middle of his plan, like if he had appeared before in the movie and we already knew who he was. I think his character is as simple as a character can get, he is the polar oposite of order, he hates institutions, he hates the state, he behaves like an insurrectionist, an anarchist. He is a terrorist not just physically but also philosophically. He hates morality and behaves extramorally, because he does have ethical behaviours, mainly with the batman character. Some people argue that because he has a plan, he is not really that chaotic but id argue otherwise. An essential part of being the ideal anarchist is to make plans, to plan the insurrectional action, to plan the means to break the established order. I love the way this character is portraid in this movie because its so subtle, every appearance is so elegant, theres nothing to spare and nothing is missing. Thats exactly why i really dislike when people make stuff up that isnt in the movie; they break that beautiful harmony thats has been, in great detail, carefully created. I guess the main problem or flaw in the logic of most analysis is that they morally judge the character when he is beyond that... he is beyond good and evil, he is just there existing, making plans, chasing cars, thats his plan, he just wouldnt know what to do if he caught it. You can really tell that Heath Ledger and the script writer spent some good time reading anarchist literature and philosophy... As well as Nietzsche and maybe a tiny bit of Spinoza or other extramoral philosophers in the core of his belief. Unfortunately i see a lot of Plato reflected in the way his character is built in the film. Anyways, ill never get tired of this film. Cheers

[@yqafree]

The kind of fear that he is imbued with is on a cosmic horror level. He is more of an entity than just another simple man.

[@yqafree]

@@tailanthaiboxing Being good at exegesis is what I'm hearing you say in the first paragraph. That I agree with entirely, fan theories are cool and all, but what about what is read out of context and subtext rather than what one wants to read into the script, aka eisegesis.

[@lucasrackley250]

I think it’s a reference to how nobody can ever truly explain as to why and how human beings can be capable of such evil.

[@dekardkain5469]

One thing no one ever seems to bring up, and has been my theory for years: The Joker WANTS Batman to stop him. Consciously or unconsciously, like serial killers that leave clues and bait the police. Deep down, maybe after all the horrible stuff he went through, he NEEDS to believe that good will stop evil - after having witnessed evil get away with it so often in his own life. That's why he'd never reveal his identity, or end him - because then the opportunity for good to stop evil, and prove to him that good really exists? It's gone.

[@TheBuhrewnoShow]

"Very similar to the whole GOD and devil argument. Why continue to allow him to operate? It's the whole can you, will you debate." Not sure how you can debate why God would allow the devil to operate. If you're debating God vs the devil, then you have to come from a religious viewpoint. Otherwise you're cherry picking examples to make your own argument work. Strawman logic. If you're a theologist, you would understand exactly WHY God allows the devil to operate lol. If you're not a theologist - use an example you understand :)

[@TheBuhrewnoShow]

@@danlora5599 Not really. I'm just pointing out you're punching above your weight class if you're going to try and turn a debate about comic characters into a theological discussion.

[@TheBuhrewnoShow]

@@Shadows-RC No, he didn't. It made no sense. That's like me, a crane operator, pretending I know how to fly a plane. I'd be talking out of my ass with zero evidence or experience to support my decision. I think I'll stick to what I know as to not make an ass of myself. Kinda like what the other guy failed to do.

[@ibraheemtemur3469]

To be honest, i dont think that there are such things as good and evil, and there definitely isnt karma. Ive met mass murderers living happy, while good people suffer.

[@Nice-ck7rq]

@@Shadows-RC What are u even talking about damn you crazy. You can't just base a mental illness and personality traits off a basic few comments which clearly show none of that.

[@romanumeralz]

“If you’re good at something, never do it for FREE.” - 🃏

[@word69420]

“Oh, Joker. That was so good.” “That’ll be $20, Batman”

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

'You are a garbage that kills for money!'

[@Маккензи002]

@@Nicholas_Chen_ "how about a magic trick?"

[@frmyt1135]

Based

[@ryanm.8720]

“If you’re good at something, never do it." - [YTP] Batman Is Not the Hero Gotham Deserves

[@maxdavidyermolaev4164]

what i really liked about him is that he appeared out of no where and it wasnt even explained who he really is like it didnt matter. not knowing who he is makes him more random and scary

[@reinaldocaraballo4657]

Oh my God you're so right like I didn't think about that and how vital it is to the feeling of his character gives out the aura around him but you're so right you know they don't give anything like it starts and there's a group of guys robbing the bank and there's subtle things that are different about one specific person and that's the one holding the mask that you see right away the way he moves and acts and you're like this has to be him but you don't know anything police arrest him they say that there's no no ID no pictures there's nothing to identify him you know nothing no car keys the custom clothing nothing to suggest to the authorities whose job it is to identify people on a daily basis to even suggest you this f****** person is and I love that it works so well showing you that a character doesn't always need an origin you know having it be a mystery makes him more interesting but it also makes him a few more dangerous more volatile the man with no name has no connections and no past and no future that he cares about so he is much more dangerous and he can embody chaos at will

[@jamesjoy7547]

@@reinaldocaraballo4657 "I am an agent of chaos" Could be any one of us. If pushed past our limits...

[@sevenproxies4255]

I don't think The Joker himself really knows how he got those scars. The problem with insanity is that your own memory can become an unreliable narrator.

[@naughtybear2187]

Ripped that straight out of the killing joke you cheeky bastard.

[@shhs1227]

@@naughtybear2187 yeah but it's also just true

[@ImblackUSA]

Sharp hamburger

[@jont5020]

@@shiningfaceofluzon5594 I always thought that was the real story, too. Body language aside, it just seemed more believable.

[@shiningfaceofluzon5594]

@@jont5020 there was another guy who came up with this whole other theory that both are true; happening at different points of his life and that he was the comedian from watchmen before taking up the joker persona.

[@Nick-qf7vt]

I think an important note to make about The Joker's kill count is that, he's killed 34 people *that we know of* . It could very easily, and most likely is, many more than that.

[@gordodelagulfton9800]

Does that count the hospital bombing

[@g.w.7893]

It's certainly more than that. Do you wanna know how he got those scars?

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

He did ask the police guy: 'How many of your friends have I killed?' I think despite he said it to deliberately provoke the police guy so he could break free, but it was also a genuine question cause he lost count of how many people he has killed. It would make total sense he doesn't, as he simply doesn't care about lives.

[@melissam597]

Fatboy Texas I think they got everybody out the hospital before he blew it up

[@jamesneese7663]

@@melissam597 No.....at the very least we know the Joker shot one of the hospital police by Harvey's room plus its' UNLIKELY he got the nurse's uniform from ebay.

[@cjmurphy7967]

In my opinion the main indicator that he may have been in the military is how he flawlessly preformed in the 21 gun salute. The reason why is because I've learned it myself and its pretty hard to get the hang of and keep in perfect sync, or even understand the corresponding commands, without some reference.

[@sangbeom6245]

DoD CAG to CIA SAD to Witness Protection to wipe out his identity and change everything. Nobody would touch him or acknowledge this guy above the county level anywhere. And the local police wouldn't be able to search any database on him either. His entire life after 18 is a ghost and anything prior to 18 is a minor and unaccessible. My guess is he grew up in Gotham and came back after all those years. But why cause so much annihilation with everyone? He went "POSTAL"? But he seems to have prepared for this. He didn't just "SNAP". As for scars? I think it's self-harm. Nobody did this to him but himself.

[@robirvine6970]

Or, you know, it’s a movie and that means nothing.

[@CajunReaper95]

@@robirvine6970let people fantasize over stuff that’s harmless.

[@casper_b2bmarketer]

@@robirvine6970 or it means everything

[@g3nj1]

@@robirvine6970 if it's good writing then everything means something, you uncultured swine.

[@Xehanort10]

3:50 When he talks to Harvey about how nobody panics when a truck full of soldiers is blown up some have theorised that if Joker was a soldier he might have resented the fact that the army saw him and his fellow officers as expendable.

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

Lots of clues in his dialogues there! 'I just *DO* things.' - This one can EASILY go over people's heads but this one is actually KEY, he emphasized on 'DO things'. Military intelligence, special ops and field agents always carry out questionable and unethical orders from the government. This gives you a lot of clues to what he used to do. 'Gordons got plans. They are schemers, schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer.' - Connect this to the above quote, he likely was always carrying out orders from the government, his superiors, those 'schemers' 'I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are.' - Here it shows as a person who just 'DO things' he grew to despise those schemers. ‘Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos.’ - He has a thing, almost an obsession about upsetting order, he likely was under very strict orders in his previous military service and he didn't like it. ‘They need you right now, but when they don’t, they will cast you out. Like a leper. See their morals, their code, is a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble.’ - They needed him in a military mission, I suspect a confidential and difficult one, so I think he's some sort of military intelligence that deals with counter-terrorism 'It's all part of the plan.' - I think he's referring to some sort of back-up 'mission abort' plans that the government has in place, i.e abandon the soldiers if the mission goes south ‘You remind me of my father, I hated my father.’ - Daddy issues There are a lot of other parts, but if you tie them together, it definitely sounds like Joker was a military intelligence officer who was betrayed by the government he tried so had to protect. I might even think his father might be high in the army whom he had a poor relationship with, trained him to be a top class military intelligence officer, and when his mission goes south his father just refused to save him...

[@DD-ej1hg]

@@Nicholas_Chen_ not a bad theory

[@vrmn8tr]

there's a line in the animated series that the Joker says: "without Batman, crime has no punch-line"

[@joshpezzner5929]

@Greg Elchert from the batman animated series?

[@joshpezzner5929]

@Greg Elchert from the batman animated series?

[@Dsaxner]

You should do Agent Smith from the Matrix! Even though he is not human, he still has emotion-like feelings and distain for humanity that shows in interesting monologues throughout the series.

[@JazzyJazzRock]

Big up for Smith

[@skerrkro2952]

Yeah and also Griffith from berserk

[@kennymason3518]

WHY MR ANDERSON WHY WHY DO YOU PERSIST?!

[@skerrkro2952]

@@kennymason3518 GRIFFITH FROM BERSERK WHEN. WHERE IS THE HAWK OF LIGHT.

[@kotoamatsukami.]

Based choices, I agree! Griffith and Agent Smith

[@TheRoomforImprovement]

Both Heath Ledger’s and Joaquin Phoenix’s portrayals are both so unique and so distinct that they impact the landscape of film.

[@spsawyer22]

Phoenix's is relatable. Ledger plays him as an enigma, a whimsical malevolence that fits perfect into the Batman (specifically Nolans trilogy) motif. I can't relate to him and he's terrifying.

[@itz.deerius4152]

@@spsawyer22I mean he’s not that relatable, he killed a lot of people

[@LogicbyDefault]

@@spsawyer22ledgers joker is very relatable we see it in everyday society, criminals exist for the most simple yet complex reasons. Pain poverty and a sense of isolation is something we all deal with at one point or another be it one or all. The thing about joker in this depiction is he is us just one bad day away from crossing the line Harvey was his example

[@style_hedgehog]

Defiantly agree tho, regardless, both did amazing in their roles.

[@Kiljaedenas]

Ugh, personally I hated Joaquin's version with a passion. The Joker, for Heath and all previous iterations, is supposed to be a crazy psychopath but also have a genius-level intellect. Heath showed this PERFECTLY. Joaquin's version, on the other hand is such an ineffectual inept twat that he's only still alive by the end of the movie by pure dumb luck, and any of the Batman iterations we've seen would have snapped him in half with their eyes closed. He utterly butchered the character.

[@valentinolopez8528]

I’ve always felt when joker said “ you wanna know how I got these scars?” He wasn’t necessarily talking about his physical scars

[@monsterinhead214]

I'm only burning my haff.

[@idrinkmilk282]

He definitely was talking about his physical scars lmao. given that he gestures towards the physical scars and literally gives reasons for them physically being there

[@monsterinhead214]

@@idrinkmilk282 I see it as a clever double-entendre, so he is referring to both the physical scars and the phsycokological stuff at the same time.

[@idrinkmilk282]

@@monsterinhead214 I can buy that he’s talking about both, but some users here (including the person that made this original post) seem to be suggesting he is not referencing the physical scars at all, but the emotional ones only. I’m not buying that given that it’s just not true.

[@monsterinhead214]

@@idrinkmilk282 Well, it's fiction, so none of it is true. It's all a matter of opinion or conjecture or fantasy.

[@thejoker0123]

so glad you did Heath's Joker now that you covered him and Joaquin Phoenix's Joker let's see you do Jack Nicholson's Joker of Tim Burton's Batman ^^

[@dying101666]

this must happen

[@BofaDee33]

A lot of people were scared of the role because they felt like Jack did an awesome job playing the Joker. I remember watching that movie as a kid and seeing Batman kind of finally come to life. It's probably still my favorite Batman movie of all time. Jack's Joker was definitely great he went more for the random kind of acting. No purpose no plan just do things because they are fun. Heath's probably still the best Joker his performance was brilliant.

[@cloudsombrero]

What I really want is letos

[@kristywalton11]

Absolutely!! As a kid I had nightmares about Jack's joker but now he's my favorite

[@Saveyourbs]

He needs to do the Joker of love ❤️

[@anonymousperson6119]

“The Joker says he isn’t a man with a plan, but this couldn’t be further from the truth.” Exactly my thinking when I heard that line. The events he brings into play would require a significant amount of planning

[@nguyen-vuluu3150]

my interpretation of that line is that all his plans amount to absolutely nothing except chaos in society, while everybody else' plans all have very specific goals

[@kylereese5841]

@@nguyen-vuluu3150 Creating chaos is a specific goal & he planned turning Harvey specifically. He's He's reading froma script when talking to the people on the ships.

[@Channel9001]

He specifically lies to Harvey Dent about not having a plan because he's trying to manipulate Harvey into thinking the world is fundamentally chaotic and unfair. Something Harvey's worldview was centered around denying. Harvey was all about control. Making his own luck, as he put it. But once everything had been taken from him, he lost that illusion of control. Once Harvey stops thinking of the Joker as a thinking, planning man and more as a force of nature brought upon the city by corruption, it's easier for Harvey to blame what he sees as the source of that corruption for all he had lost rather than the Joker.

[@flaminghell9572]

@@kylereese5841 "I'm like a dog chasing cars, I wouldn't know what to do if I caught one" This describes exactly what Joker meant when he said he didn't have a plan, zhere actually is a plan but the result of that plan is unknown as chaos by definition is unpredictable.

[@kylereese5841]

@@flaminghell9572 He literally planed out Harvey's fall cos he said he needed an ace in the hole and didn't want to leave the fight for gothams soul to chance.

[@CLRvision54]

I personally believe Joker is a former Special Operator who fell victim to PTSD and snapped. Went completely rogue and went on a killing spree to make himself feel alive back when he was an Operator. The planning and execution of all his plans, the manipulation of indigenous forces (street thugs) to work along side him, the tactical prowess of route planning, demolitions placements and even the bank heist. All of these skills and abilities have to have a "know how" to be able to even plan like that.

[@sangbeom6245]

DoD CAG to CIA SAD to Witness Protection to wipe out his identity and change everything. Nobody would touch him or acknowledge this guy above the county level anywhere. And the local police wouldn't be able to search any database on him either. His entire life after 18 is a ghost and anything prior to 18 is a minor and unaccessible. My guess is he grew up in Gotham and came back after all those years. But why cause so much annihilation with everyone? He went "POSTAL"? But he seems to have prepared for this. He didn't just "SNAP". As for scars? I think it's self-harm. Nobody did this to him but himself.

[@g3nj1]

He didn't do it for the sake of killing. He was trying to "send a message". He was probably angry at the system that used and discarded him, and the world that brought that system into practice with no accountability.

[@Jackholiday1025]

“Went completely rouge and went on a killing spree to make himself feel alive back when he was an operator “ lol you are corny af.

[@nogunk147]

I always thought the fact that you can't ever truly identify the Jokers past or who he even is was symbolic to his villain name. In a set of playing cards the Joker is its own class and what is referred to as a Wildcard. The wildcard can be anything you want it to be in your set of cards and in the game you play. Similarly to how Joker can get any sane person to believe anything he says about himself or who he is and they'd believe it.

[@Khoros-Mythos]

"If I'm going to have a past I'd prefer it to be multiple choice."

[@thesun5275]

Considering who he directed his stories to and how it would hit to them, then yeah, it is pretty accurate. He fits those situations.

[@hebrewyisraeliteyahawadahite]

*Not surprisingly, the Joker, Catwoman, Batman, Bane & BILLIONS of others grew-up having daddy issues.*

[@jamesjoy7547]

Actually, I'm surprised the term "wild card" hadn't been adopted into the Joker mythos more often

[@CajunReaper95]

@@hebrewyisraeliteyahawadahitesaying bw had daddy issues isn’t correct considering both his parents were murdered.

[@robertmccrory8876]

“Don't talk like one of them. You're not! Even if you'd like to be. To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.”

[@QoQabai658]

And here's what's so funny about that little speech.....if you ever watch this movie called The Road starring Viggo Mortenson, everything Joker said came to fruition. It was the fall of society where most of all the world's animals and plantlife died. People began to starve, so much so that they were literally killing and 'eating' each other. Ahead of the curve indeed.

[@torachan23]

Sounds exactly like government officials

[@mefit1]

So much logic that movie gave with these quotes

[@ravenfrancis1476]

Y'all realize the entire point of the movie is that the Joker is *wrong*, right? Like, that's why both boats refuse to blow the other one up.

[@amirmerrity3048]

@@ravenfrancis1476 But everybody knows that in real life that wouldn't have happened. They just couldn't find the message that the villain was right.

[@timonfischer9679]

This trilogy is so good. No superpowers, just a great Script and incredible actors. RIP Heath Ledger

[@lutfensusshow5397]

ra's is immortal so some superpowers

[@frysurf8218]

Dark knight rises was shit. the other two were good

[@yellowscarlightningscream8347]

@@frysurf8218 Dark Knight Rises was not bad at all. It is far better than modern DC movies. It wasn't as good as Dark Knight but it was decent.

[@lukejones0826]

@@yellowscarlightningscream8347if the dark knight rises had come before the dark knight somehow, just fix some continuity or something, then it would be seen as so much better than it is now

[@joshheralal8758]

No superpowers is a negative

[@carolynluckas1219]

I remember seeing Michael Caine saying that that scene in Wayne Tower almost made him crap his pants he was so scared by Ledger’s Joker.

[@vaclav_fejt]

"Do you think I would risk everything on a fistfight with you?" - Joker, the schemer.

[@jasonvoorheescampblood]

Did Joker say that in the movie?

[@vaclav_fejt]

@@jasonvoorheescampblood Not exactly, I was quoting from memory, but he said that in his last scene, while hanging upside down.

[@loonyshots5879]

@@vaclav_fejt "do you think I'd risk gothoms soul in a fistfight with you" is closer and i think that one line tells you everything you need to know but everyone seems to forget about it, the truth is joker is fighting for the city and trying to destroy the corruption, he stops Batman from working making criminals de-escalate, he takes out the biggest mafia in the city, and his actions made it a lot harder for criminals to get out of sentences with corruption and money, then he stopped, he didn't continue even though he could've of he was "trying to cause chaos and destroy the city" like many people say, he's like a dark knight truly fighting for his city just not necessarily doing it in the most morally correct ways

[@b33fsupe]

@@vaclav_fejt "You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fistfight with you?"

[@specialperson335]

I thought this was brilliant since this is exactly what he does in the Tim Burton batman movie.

[@-Keith-]

"Wanna know how I got these scars?" Who said he was specifically talking about the physical ones? If his story about his father was about mental scars, all his stories can be true. "Whatever doesn't kill you, only makes you... stranger." I imagine there's a bit of truth baked into the things he tells people about himself. He's pretty honest about his intentions and motivations.

[@idrinkmilk282]

The fact he gestures towards his physical scars after saying “do you wanna know how I got these” and then literally goes on to give reasons as to why those scars are physically on his physical face is what gave it away to me

[@rhollowaybusiness]

Good observation regarding mental scars. We only think of pain as visible, but mental anguish has no face to scar

[@theahearn2658]

Think of it like this, when a joker says something like his backstory of his wife and the scars on his face and that's how he got them there might be some truth in there because he likes to double back what he saying he basically just runs two circles around people confusing them cuz you don't know what the truth is. Did his wife actually Gamble and get in deep? Or did he just do it because he was tired of seeing her sad all the time? And the best example to compare to that is the scene where he tells them where Harvey Dent and Rachel are being held and he gives them the addresses mixed up on purpose to see what they will do and how the reactions from the people will be. All because he had another plan in motion. He has plans on top of his plans on top of his plans. And when he says to Harvey Dent in the hospital " do I really look like a guy with a plan?" He had sell a bull crap story and a lie and a truth on top of another truth and on top of a lie. He's like the Maze of trying to figure out what the truth is because he'll sprinkle some of it in there but he will do it in such an obscure way that it's fascinating. It's like you're trying to figure out a puzzle that has so many layers that you just can't figure it out with 13 years.

[@bengully5076]

“You complete me.” Lol. Never thought I would get lost in the moment with a grown man wearing clown paint and acting as a villain. That’s how great his joker iteration was. Incomparable!

[@Callebravo]

There is a difference between a joker & a clown

[@bengully5076]

@@Callebravo ? What’s the relevance?

[@Callebravo]

@Ben Gully should be relevant to someone who doesn’t know the difference

[@bengully5076]

@@Callebravo so he’s not wearing clown paint to become the joker ? 🤔 or you don’t comprehend?

[@danielolortegui8422]

I remember when I took psychology in College. All my essays were about comic book characters and the Joker was a big part of my emotion/motivation paper. My professor fucking loved it. There was the whole intrinsic motivation vs extrinsic motivation debate and even both are intertwined. Nobody knows what makes him do what he does and deep down, we don't want to know. We had to read the DSM-5 very carefully and the Joker did not meet the criteria for anything. It's as if everyone else around him is mentally ill and he's beyond any diagnosis

[@sangbeom6245]

Just like someone from CIA Case Officers or DoD CAG to CIA SAD.

[@sabir1208]

Damn...

[@Guppy199]

@@sangbeom6245 Can you elaborate?, Im intrigued.

[@sangbeom6245]

@@Guppy199 CAG is tier 1 black ops. SAD is the paramilitary element of the CIA

[@Goobermxh]

Hey, that sounds very interesting. I know this comment was posted a while ago but is it possible for this paper to be shared? I’m an artist making up stories for characters so I’m very interested in reading this paper.

[@legofan4409]

I always enjoyed the fact that the movie left us with enough to speculate over the Joker's past, while also making it ambigious enough that none of it may be true, which is very fitting for the Joker.

[@vksasdgaming9472]

He did not appear out of nowhere and certainly has a past. He might in a sense mirror Bruce Wayne who was missing for long time and was trained by League Of Shadows during that time. Not much record from that time of him. Joker may be a similar case of a person just gone missing and re-emerging years later as completely different person. There must be a trace of him, but it is so old and muddy that nobody knows how to find it. Missing person over ten years ago with no evidence of crime or soldier without close relatives gone AWOL off-shore.

[@Boss-jl4ue]

I love his dog chasing cars line idk why but it's just great. "I'm like a dog chasing cars I wouldn't know what to if I caught one"

[@postsniper-7532]

@sv_cheats 1 the dog chases the car because that’s it’s nature

[@Mr.Heller]

@@postsniper-7532 Yeah, all those dogs chasing wild cars for ten thousand years really imprinted car chasing in their genetics.

[@UnholyWrath3277]

@@Mr.Heller no but by being a surrogate for a running animal it activates their hunting instincts to chase.

[@cartermikovich1369]

Heath ledger didn’t just portray the joker like we’d never seen before, he portrayed evil like we’d never seen before

[@yaboyed5779]

Watching the Dark Knight after watching A Knight’s Tale really show how amazing Heath Ledger truly is. Bravo to him and RIP.

[@mattgilbert7347]

"Joker is like a miracle. He just appears" -Slavoj Zizek

[@doctorrandomiise2532]

*"Cjhokerr ishz likhe a mirakhle. Khe cjhuszt appearszh."

[@raaaaaaaaaam496]

No no no it’s “joker *spit* is like a *spit* miracle. *spit* he just appears *spit*”

[@TheAmericanPrometheus]

"Schschockher *(sniff)* ichsch likche a *(sniff)* mirachcschlsche *(touches nose)* . Khcsche *(sniff)* juschcht appearschshcs." - Slavoj Zizek

[@demit189]

I did not expect to see Zizek referenced here

[@mjolninja9358]

Pure ideology

[@TheCanadianGuy56]

I'm not going to lie, this is still one of my favorite films of all time. Just watching Heath Ledger just own the show is stunning every time. It's such a gap from every joker we'd ever seen, yet so perfected and flushed out. I'm excited to watch this.

[@goroakechi6126]

“I’m an agent of chaos” *makes years of peace in Gotham*

[@garank4971]

Chaos for who? Thats the question here

[@МаксимЛяшко-и3ъ]

Inadvertently, may I point out.

[@goroakechi6126]

@@МаксимЛяшко-и3ъ Not really. He; -bankrupted the Mafia -Murdered several dozen corrupt politicians -Got the guy in a batsuit provoking vigilantes with guns to mow down criminals to retire -Kills the Commissioner to put Gordon in charge -And got Dent to become Gotham’s Next Hope when he’s dead Gotta respect the hustle

[@МаксимЛяшко-и3ъ]

@@goroakechi6126 He planned on killing Gordon and succeeded in corrupting Dent as well as breaking Batman’s one big rule. If Ledger didn’t die it would show in part 3 how much damage Joker could inflict.

[@lashisrad]

Batman was gone for taking the wrap on Dent and Jokers murders. 7 years there was no Batman. And what Dark Knight Rises delivers vs. What The Dark Knight Returns is. (Talking comic and Animated film.) Is its own take.

[@KosMachine2955]

I feel like when the joker talks about his scars he's not talking about the ones on his face for the most part, he's talking about how he became who he is now

[@riteshjadhav1382]

Jack Nicholson's joker: Gangster Heath Ledger's joker: Anarchist Joaquin Phoenix joker: Broken Man

[@mstone9364]

Jared Leto’s Joker: A Joke

[@Chris_Troxler]

@@mstone9364 🤣🤣🤣👍🏾

[@Dagothownsneravar]

Jared leto's joker: 40 year old white mumble rapper E-boy Joker

[@MrRjh63]

William Dafoe: The Joker we never got sadly.

[@Maradala]

Yea Jared leto's joker reminds me of the rapper 69. Look him up, and you'll understand. "I know the squealers when I see them, and...-->"

[@slabpanda]

6:02 you can see how subtly badass Alfred was because he didn’t flinch when The Joker shot the shotgun off right next to him, while everyone else did.

[@chrisknepper6894]

I heard that it was Michael Caine's first time seeing Heath as the Joker and was so shocked by his performance he forgot his lines.

[@Khan.WrathOf]

In the comics, I believe its alluded to that Alfred served in combat. Possibly WW2.

[@General_Weebus]

@@Khan.WrathOf in the comics Alfred is former SAS. He can and has on multiple occasions dropped criminals with deadly force. To quote him: "Perhaps you relied on my master's vow against using lethal force. Let me assure you that I subscribe to *no* such niceties."

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

Actually Michael Caine forgot his lines. But yeah Alfred was supposed to be ex SAS and caught the man who wanted to watch the world burn in Burma, dude's a total badass.

[@FaceFamous]

@@Nicholas_Chen_ Batman- how you catch him Alfred- We burned the Forest down I'm like ok... Alfred is about that life😁☠💀

[@emanueltorres894]

Rest in peace mister Leager, you were without question the best Joker.

[@speedracer2008]

I wish he had lived to see his performance as the Joker on the big screen. I’m sure he would have been proud of his work as the Joker.

[@ktbecstasy]

His death made his role even more iconic

[@Khoros-Mythos]

Come on man, you can at least spell his name right.

[@soxpeewee]

Sid Caesar begs to differ as does Mark Hamill.

[@Gcanarte0531]

Good thing is his wife is started to act in movies maybe she can fill his shoes and see how much the actress can grow

[@jaxsondav9546]

“Let’s say a truck full of soldiers just blows up, it’s just ‘part of the plan.’” The quote isn’t exact but his breaking point may have been one similar to the one from Joker. Though he did nothing wrong and in fact helped his country, the world ignored his suffering, leading him into finally putting on the makeup and scaring his face after everything that’s happened to him.

[@Xehanort10]

17:07 And if Rachel survived Joker probably would have taunted her about Harvey's death and planted the idea in her head that Batman had let Harvey die so he could have her to himself. It wouldn't be true but it would be something Joker could easily get the traumatised grieving Rachel to believe.

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

Ugh, honestly can't stand Rachel, but a very interesting 'What if' scenario. I think at that point Rachel is done with Bruce Wayne and Batman (total bitch move btw) and she will grow to spite Bruce her childhood friend, and distance herself from him who ironically could bring her safety, this makes her vulnerable, and as an interrogation expert, it wouldn't be too hard for Joker to figure all that out, so, he might trace her down and torture her just like what he did to Babra in the killing joke and use that to taunt Batman. Like he said at the Harvey Dent dinner party, he would 'settle for his loved ones'.

[@AxeKick80]

I would’ve LOVED to see some kind of interaction between Ledge’s Joker and Hardy’s Bane. I’m curious what kind of dynamic they would have had together.

[@SJRenkola]

It would have been awesome, but I honestly think had Heath lived, Nolan wouldn't have put him in the movie. Or if he did, it would have only been a cameo appearance; similar to Murphy as Scarecrow. Because with Heath's Joker it would have overshadowed the new "big bad."

[@odizza1688]

Hell yeah

[@dancooke8811]

None...

[@dancooke8811]

Liam Neeson would have had them followed by The League...and had their lives "Taken" from them...

[@nickasaro8789]

I think I heard somewhere that before Heath passed, Nolan had a plan to put him in Rises. Would have been interesting to have seen that for sure.

[@aranerem3767]

"In their last moments, people show you who they really are".

[@TheConjurersTower]

"I don't know who he is, his stuff comes in the mail!" ~ J. Jonah Jameson Jr.

[@Shane-un8pe]

@@TheConjurersTower Jonah is a real one. Psycho maniac just blew up his office and he refuses to give up some nobody kid who takes pictures for him.

[@MichaelWilson-io8xq]

Would you like to know which of your friends were cowards? - Knows exactly what to say to make the officer lose his cool and get sloppy, allowing him to get the advantage. Master manipulator, indeed.

[@andrewrivera190]

By the way. Another theory I heard about his scar stories is this: His scar stories are completely improvised on the spot. Basically he gets inside his victim’s head. For Gamble he talks about an abusive father, which chance’s are Gamble had which creates a false sense of connection to his victim. For Racheal Joker talks about a wife. Which Rachel just had a conversation with Dent about marriage just before Joker barrages into the room with his thugs. Joker even later refers to Rachel as Dent’s “Blushing bride to be.” Difficult to say if Joker is just really good at psychoanalyzing people or just due to his connections in a corrupt city he already as information on his victims. Anyway, all this to say. Because of how he tells his stories he creates that connection with his victim right before he kills them. I think this was intended because he even states later he uses knives to “savor the little emotions” people have in their final moments. By creating that false connection with the victim it allows him to draw those emotions out. As for his actual backstory. Well… it doesn’t technically matter. It is definitely inspired by the “I prefer my backstory to be multiple choice” mentality some of his comic book portrayals used. But ultimately he’s the embodiment of anarchy.

[@ethanstump]

There's actually many anarchists that would dispute being anything like the joker, specifically anarcho-pascifists. Further, as anarchists fundamentally believe in a society without rulers, they themselves wouldn't target individual civilians, as they literally have little to do with the hierarchy. Also, his actions wouldn't actually lead to anarchy, as he creates a power vacuum that most likely would be filled by fascists, as they themselves believe in perpetual warfare (rather than peace) rather than giving ordinary people the control over their own lives, as an anarchist would do. Further, there's tons of methods and processes that he uses that simply would be anathema among the anarchist community, such as: as mentioned hurting innocents, manipulating and threatening people's loved ones to get them to do his bidding, instituting a battlefield where innocent's may stumble upon it, using torture, allying with the mob, and probably even more egregious methods that simply will not and cannot lead to anarchy, but will exacerbate fascism instead. This is further explained with the character of bain, which I think fits far more in line with Mussolini than say, Nestor mahkno

[@KennyPagley]

God this was such a good joker, my favorite one actually. Heath did such a good job, putting his ALL into the character.

[@stephvandykeozzy]

He's my favorite Joker as well. Heath Ledger nailed it on this role.

[@bryanalstoncoxing]

Omg thank you for posting this! What an iconic villain and performance

[@vksasdgaming9472]

Ledger's Joker displays strongly on antisocial personality disorder. Almost inhumanly strongly. Of course some of it might be genuine, but some kind of triggering events may have forced him to cope by adopting a different persona, Joker. Maybe he was intelligence analyst. He has interest on masks, identities and "true self". Most likely family he came from paid close attention to appearances and external signs of success. Exposed to lots of stress and hypocrisy from early age. He always had sociopathic tendencies, but they most likely remained under wraps. He is one of those people who have uncanny talent in something and somebody decides to train him to be even better without thinking is it wise move to do? If man is able to plan terrorist attacks just for fun you might not want to teach him how to do them better. Most likely he has encountered some kind of traumatic event which broke his "mask". That is why he is so obsessed with appearances and layers.

[@swagswagger9644]

lol does it really needed to be stated that joker has ASPD? His presentation is like if you took every aspect of the disorder and turned it up to one million.

[@vksasdgaming9472]

@@swagswagger9644 Sheer consistency of his sociopathic traits might mean they are an act he is performing. There are simply no other mental symptoms/traits he shows and that (at least to me) tells that it is learned form of behavior. Who knows?

[@VonJay]

I agree with the diagnosis. But I don't think he had a military background, or needed any background. I think he was like most cult leaders, well read, perhaps had a decent education. He's a regular sociopath that created a symbol. A theme of the trilogy is "to create a symbol that would inspire the creation of other symbols." In Begins, the bat is a fresh symbol on the scene. The dark Knight shows the worst that can happen when new symbols are created. There are multiple batmen in the beginning of the movie taking on crime but using guns. Wayne projects the symbol of the white Knight onto Harvey dent. And then the emergence of the joker, a symbol of a sociopath/aspd. The white Knight and his gf don't survive and aren't bm's equals In Rises, Batman is finally joined by his equals in Robbin and Catwoman. But back to ASPD, he could have simply been born with a neurological or genetic defect. As the saying goes, I think, at my hospital, "narcissists are made and sociopaths are born."

[@vksasdgaming9472]

@@VonJay Sociopathy is in my books similar misconnection of brain like Autistic Spectrum is. Of course enviromental triggers have their own thing to say as clinical sociopath can still be productive member of society and not a psychotic monster. But as Joker shows skill in not only planning and organizing and insight about how GCPDs conduct it is possible he is actual native Gothamite. He has quite thorough knowledge about explosives and knows how to operate military equipment so him having formal training in those matters is plausible. He might also have informal training by experimentation like Unabomber had. He is written with very contradictory style so nothing really certain can be said. He is very smart and skilled and utterly sociopathic. Terrorist against causes. I disagree about him being similar to cult leader as he had very little narcissistic and hedonistic traits and also was not about power exerted.

[@VonJay]

@@vksasdgaming9472 Joker fits Sociopathic/ASPD behavior to the T. A misconception about narcs is that they cross societal boundaries and commit murderous and heinous acts. This misconception may be due to non dsm-v terms as malignant narcissists, which doesn't exist in the dsmv for a reason. For instance, ASPD and NPD are of the same cluster, cluster b personality disorders. So a few traits overlap. The extra traits, impulsive manipulation, deception, habitually crossing societal boundaries to where you're imprisoned, is exclusive to ASPD. So the cult like following that the joker had in tdk, exhibit characteristics of a cult under the climate of a sociopath. The feedback loop to narc behavior is usually attributed to or triggered by an impulse (or attempt) to deflect shame. Narcs lack empathy like ASPDs/sociopaths, yet they have the ability to feel shame, which usually impedes such heinous acts. A sociopath may feign shame, empathy, etc, yet narcs, pure npd's have an inability to even act or ingratiate themselves into another's favor. The feedback loop that keeps narcs from healthy interpersonal relations is lack of empathy, inability to control emotions, lack of object constancy and whole object relations. They are constantly aware of their inadequacies and use that loop to stay out of the loop. However, sociopaths have little to no concept of being inadequate or feel any type of shame from any act.

[@HiddelS143]

Joker may have been a CIA spook. That could be where he learned all his skills with guns, avoiding authorities, and interrogation (shown during his interrogation with Batman where he says “don’t start with the head, the victim gets all fuzzy.”)

[@TheWhiteOcelot]

Please do Bane. I feel he's very underrated and could deserve his own video. Also would suggest Niander Wallace from Blade Runner 2049 and his short film released with it. Thanks for the content! I'm absolutely riveted by your analysis, and the only unwatched videos of yours are from films I have not seen yet. Now they're all on my watch list though, so thank you!

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

Yeah Niander Wallace would be an interesting one! A corrupt creator and an absolute narcissist with a god complex. I also suggest another Ridley Scott villain, David 8 the andriod.

[@DawoudKringle]

Excellent suggestions.

[@VonJay]

Bane was pretty straight forward

[@WunderWaffleman]

@@oldatarigamer unfortunate for sure. I didnt care about talias personal revenge story. Bane's terrorism was far more interesting and I wished hed been the sole villian with a more fleshed out motive and ideology. I liked that they turned the league of shadows into a more realistic, extremely well funded terrorist group

[@teabsaesae9870]

Na man, do herobrine from. Minecraft

[@richardtseng9535]

I think the real "answer" to the Joker's scars lies in why clowns wear makeup. They do it to enhance and bring attention to the kind of clown they want to portray, sometimes they'll even use it to call attention to physical features that serve the character. We see that without the makeup, people either don't notice Joker's scars or intentionally ignore them out of politeness. In the police parade scene, he's able to stand in front of the entire police force and get a shot off on the mayor without anyone guessing he's the guy who killed fake Batman in the video he just released that the whole city saw (it was on the news). This is the absurdity that the Joker both exploits and points out: people looking the other way and pretending what's hideous or wrong isn't there so as to maintain the facade that everything's fine and orderly. By applying a little blood-colored makeup, Heath Ledger's Joker makes it impossible to ignore those scars. It's one of the first things he brings up because he knows the question of how he got his defining physical feature is what anyone who meets him wants to ask the most. Painting the scars red is a gambit that forces you to engage. But it's a trick because a clown is no more interested in showing you anything about the person underneath the makeup than a magician is in explaining how his magic actually works. The clown is only interested in the face in the mirror. In who YOU see when you look at that face. So why does the Joker ask the question, "Do you want to know how I got these scars?" It's not because he wants you to feel his pain or know who he was, it's because he's trying to push you over the edge. A clown's face portrays what the clown wants you to feel. The Joker is unhinged. His entire MO is to make Gotham see the world the way he sees it. The origin story for his scars is meant to unhinge you. That's why he tells the tale of a messed up father to the head of a crime syndicate: as a leader and killer of men in the underworld, it's likely he's had to be a father figure to his minions and also has daddy issues of his own. It's also why Joker's story for a bride-to-be is about a display of love gone horribly wrong: what's scarier than committing to a man who will betray you is committing to a man whose love you're forced to betray. A person who jokes doesn't want you to know who he is, they want you to appreciate the world from their perspective. The question's a setup and the punchline is what you least want to hear. It's a joke weaponized to weaken the target's psyche, which is why Batman responds by hitting him in the face. The truth is there just isn't enough in the movie to answer how he got his physical scars, but his actions suggest an answer to how he got his psychological ones. Remember the movie's tagline, "Why so serious?" As much as we would like to explain away why the Joker is so crazy with a personal story of abuse and hardship, the real answer lies in why we are serious and why he's not: because he stared into the abyss while we pretend to be too busy, righteous, "good", and look away. It's likely Joker worked for or with the military, but it's even more likely he worked in intelligence, possibly the CIA. Whichever arm of the US government is currently tasked with maintaining global order via localized chaos. More than a brilliant tactician, he's an expert at destabilizing democratically elected governments. He uses propaganda to sour the populace on Batman. He wipes out key political and legal figures, then reveals their corruption to assassinate both the person and their character. And the way he gets local thugs, mercenaries, and crazies to do his dirty work is pretty much how handlers treat their assets. The only difference here is that the Joker isn't telling himself he's doing it for "freedom", "democracy", or even "capitalism" nor is he interested in replacing the corrupt power structure with his own lackeys. Instead, he wants to create a void. The kind of abyss that would force Gotham to confront its own corruption. Batman sacrifices himself to uphold the facade of Harvey's incorruptible character and keep Gotham's faith in authority alive. In doing so, Batman at once proves himself a hero while also proving the Joker right: society is maintained through the hoax of willful ignorance. Something obviously had to go horribly wrong for the Joker to do what he did. But I doubt "The Dark Knight" Joker's origin story is anything close to Arthur Fleck's "The Joker". Heath Ledger's Joker displays genius-level IQ while Fleck is barely literate. Whatever happened, it so obliterated the last shreds of the former's humanity that all we're left with is this eldritch embodiment of the answer to the question "why so serious?" Answer (according to Joker): Because seriousness is all a morally bankrupt society has left to stave off madness and ruin.

[@rhollowaybusiness]

Richard I absolutely love your post. The scene where his withou his make up is so bizarre as how was he able to blend in. However most of the cops out there were either crooked or some of his own guys. The analysis of clowns is something I never thought about, but it’s brilliant! Thanks for your post!

[@npcimknot958]

there is also a parallel of a man that dresses like a bat and uses theatrics that inspires joker to paint on that face cause “ you and i, we’re the same thing”

[@standgroundjj]

To long , don’t care

[@Reorganiser]

I don't see a reason for the producers and writers of the film to have any sort of backstory for this antagonist. He's clearly noone yet so present, he doesn't want money nor power nor attention, he just wants chaos, he wants to see the world burn. I simply think that the reason for this motivation is made clear fairly easy in "The Joker" as the Gotham there as the Gotham literally in any other version is just fucked up, messy, ignorant and so on. I don't think the writers and producers wanted to give us any hints to his backstory because there simply isn't a significant one. What makes the most sence to me is that he created a different backstory for each of his victim to give it a lesson or at least somewhat influence it psychologically. He tells Rachel 'the story of his wife' because it's a significant topic in her current life, to mary Harvey or "stick" with Bruce. He tells the mob guy 'the story of his childhood' because it's probably hitting that guy (or whatever, I'm currently too stupid to figure out something more reasonable). He's not telling the audience, he's telling his victims to give himself an advantage. So at least in my eyes he doesn't have any important backstory, he's just making something up to get something out of the situation or have fun seeing other people suffer from stories. But anyway in terms of wanting to find out about his backstory: Why so serious?

[@richardtseng9535]

@@Reorganiser I agree 100%. The Joker is the go-to villain for Batman because they're actually the most similar. Both are the revenge fantasies of powerless people who want the bullies to feel the pain they're inflicting. Batman is the fear and darkness criminals use to do evil turned back in their face. He's so terrifying to thugs because he's the return of their repression. The terror of the unknown that criminals chase away by holding the power of life or death over another in their hands. Joker is the hypocrisy and willful ignorance average people use to pretend everything makes sense thrown back in their face. He embodies the unintended consequences and suffering that we don't think about. As long as things are good for us, we don't care about how bad things are for others even though not caring makes us bad people. That's why Joker's story for the mobster involves an alcoholic drug fiend of a dad because those are the kinds of men mobsters employ and sell to. Basically, that story is his way of saying, "you made me." Batman's mask is the ugliness men do at night. Joker's face is the ugliness men do during the day.

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

Lots of clues are hidden in Joker's dialogues, and if you piece them together, he is very likely a former military intelligence or special ops that got screwed by the government. 'I just *DO* things.' - This one can EASILY go over people's heads but this one is actually KEY, he emphasized on 'DO things'. Military intelligence, special ops and field agents always carry out questionable and unethical orders from the government. This gives you a lot of clues about what he used to do. 'Gordon's got plans. They are schemers, schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer.' - Connect this to the above quote, he likely was always carrying out orders from the government, his superiors, those 'schemers', and to them he was only a blunt instrument, a tool 'I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are.' - Here it shows as a person who just 'DO things' he grew to view his superiors as schemers 'You let five people die... Even for a guy like me, that's cold.' - He is no stranger to morally questionable decisions, once again going back to the above points ‘Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos.’ - He has a thing, almost an obsession about upsetting order, so he likely was under very strict orders in his previous military service and he didn't like it. ‘They need you right now, but when they don’t, they will cast you out. Like a leper. See their morals, their code, is a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble.’ - They needed him in a military mission, I suspect a confidential and difficult one, so I think he's some sort of military intelligence that deals with counter-terrorism 'It's all part of the plan.' - I think he's referring to some sort of back-up 'mission abort' plans that the government has in place, i.e abandon the soldiers if the mission goes south ‘You remind me of my father, I hated my father.’ - Daddy issues 'So I had a wife... She leaves.' - A wife who grew to be disgusted by him post-trauma and either died/walked away from him. 'Who gambled, and gets in deep with the sharks.' - It can be both about his wife or himself. The latter meaning in his previous missions messed with some dangerous people. One of those encounters may gave him those scars. 'Why so serious?' - According to Joker his father said this to him when he gave him that scar. You can take a deeper look into this and consider that as an emotional scar. And also he reacts to the word 'FREAK' very strongly. Going back to Joker having daddy issues, what if his father used to call him a 'Freak' and he as a boy would reply to his father with 'Why so serious', yet this only further causes Joker to be more rebellious, which makes him by nature, chaotic and against order. There are a lot of other parts scattered in the film, I am only naming the bits I have noticed upon rewatching, but if you tie them together, it definitely sounds like Joker was a military intelligence officer, likely highly talented and most accomplished, has lots of medals, could even be an ex-Green Beret, who was betrayed by the government he tried so had to protect. I might even think his father might be high in the army whom he had a poor relationship with, and always calls him 'FREAK' growing up, and when his mission goes south his father just refused to save him. And when he goes back home, all alone, without an identity and his wife leaves him, well, that's when this once accomplished solder, a keeper of order, becomes the Joker, the agent of chaos.

[@idrinkmilk282]

Wow you’re stretching with some of this lol

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

@@idrinkmilk282 Overanalysing, that’s what fans do :)

[@Bhubnipz]

Wow you placed totally irrational value in the word “do” and then based everything else on top of it

[@Nick__E2]

Hey dope first name! 🤙 also you put a lot of thought into this theory and I love it 🔥

[@sangbeom6245]

DoD CAG to CIA SAD to Ivy League to CIA Case Officer to Witness Protection wiping out his entire background and history and identity totally changed with the gov never acknowledging he existed. Now ad this guy's full ability into Batman's paradigm and the mob's paradigm.

[@Blank-41]

Imagine if Heath Ledger didn't die and got to continue as the Joker for another movie. Like playing in the prequel that Joaquin Phoenix did. He was such a great Joker.

[@robertbusek30]

I really want to know what happened to him in The Dark Knight Rises.

[@Darklord805n7]

@@robertbusek30I saw something that said once bane let all the prisoners out of Arkham the joker was left alone in Arkham cus he was too much of a wild card and dangerous to bane or something

[@robertbusek30]

@@Darklord805n7 That actually makes a lot of sense. Bane’s rule over Gotham had an order to it; throwing the Joker into that would create serious problems, especially if the Joker could turn some of his people…

[@Xehanort10]

2:35 My thought about Joker's scar stories is that the one he told Gambol was him picking up on the fact that Gambol might have been abused due to his anger issues and the story might have been Joker describing Gambol's life to him as if it was Joker's own to scare him before he killed him. And the one he tells Rachel was to mock her relationship with Harvey and scaring her with the idea that something would happen to her from being involved with Dent which proved true when she died in the 250 52nd street explosion. Even if either his stories were true they wouldn't explain him or justify his actions anyway.

[@Totallynonplagerizedleatherguy]

Yo! I'd never considered that! That'd take his psy ops to a whole different level.

[@SatanasExMachina]

I think you're hypothesis is correct, and for all we know he was psy ops that was captured, given the scars while being tortured for information, and then used his skills to ingratiate himself to a guard and have them aid his escape.....like he did with Harley Quinn.

[@jesussuperstar3406]

smart fella

[@Nicholas_Chen_]

He is a chameleon, always adjusting his ways of speaking to different audiences. That's why I think he was an expert in psychology and interrogation, the man knows how to play the mind game with his subjects.

[@VonJay]

I think it's simpler than that. He's a sociopath. He lies, manipulates, breaks laws, feigns interest or reason, all while psychologically "splitting" his audience. Most cult leaders are sociopaths, they create a huge following with such stories that don't add up. His lies, when not compared to one another, are very very potent and effective modes of persuasion.

[@VildhjartaFanGurl]

I can't even imagine what sort of takes Heath would have on Phoenix's joker. Or what other iconic roles might've been in Heath's future as an artist. Truly a tragic loss on every level.

[@alexanderalbach468]

Just a thought. Is Phoenix joker possible without ledgers?

[@shalidor8102]

@@alexanderalbach468 Most definitely. Ledger's Joker, while iconic, is not the foundation for Phoenix's Joker. We can't actually measure these 2 Jokers by the same metrics due to the nature of the films they were in. Dark Knight was written as a superhero blockbuster film, Joker was written as an introspective psychological drama.

[@stephenheffren4324]

@@shalidor8102 that is an interesting way to think about how things would go in terms of Phoenix's Joker and the film's themes in general(if what happened with/to Ledger didn't happen. ) Rip Ledger.

[@alexanderalbach468]

@@shalidor8102 very Compelling thoughts. Many thanks. I see the difference in story telling. But I would like to see Phoenix joker as a evolvement of ledgers joker. Surely different approach but in my eyes a shared core. Anyway, both unique and completely clear in total madness.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Phoenix’s Joker was intentionally based around government changes in the treatment of mental health in the late 70’s/early 80’s (specifically in New York). It could have literally been about anyone, but making him the Joker guaranteed a built in audience and interest. The comics were already exploring a darker and more vile Joker 40 years ago. Ledger’s take brought those elements to a much wider audience for the first time.

[@dragonskulle7283]

"what doesn't kill you makes you..stranger"

[@johnlawful2272]

Usually succeed in a second attempt -Mr krabs

[@mrbonk3139]

This guy is so well spoken he sounds like the smoothest text to speech ever.

[@scrotiemcb5858]

The reason why Joker (Nolanverse) doesn't want to kill Batman is because he sees vigilantism as the proper form of justice. One of the major themes of the film is Batman hoping to retire and have "white knight" Dent take over, and Joker sabotages this by having Harvey become a vigilante, which Joker ironically describes as lowering Harvey to the level of Joker and Batman. I say "ironically" because to Joker that's an improvement, not a downgrade. While Batman struggles against how being a vigilante means options to break rules are open, Alfred reminds him that such options are available. Bruce initially resists, but when confronted with Dent's downfall he finally accepts what both Alfred and Joker have been trying to show him - that he can break the rules, remaking then as he sees fit, to benefit Gotham. So what does this all point to about the Joker? I think the point he wants to prove is not that justice doesn't exist - he does want Batman to exist, for example - but that justice is every bit as much fueled by lies as things like greed and romance. He doesn't want a lack of "police," he wants police with alter egos and masks, police who go after whomever they see fit regardless of jurisdiction, police who lie to the people they protect. I don't think it was a mistake that Joker starts gaining attention at roughly the same time that Batman starts developing a bromance with Dent. The Joker can see the way Batman sees Dent as a way out, and what spurs Joker to action is that he will not allow this to happen, the Batman cannot be allowed to retire, or more specifically vigilantism in Gotham cannot be replaced by law and order. Again, I don't think it's necessarily the case that Joker would never want Batman destroyed. If, for instance, Frank "the Punisher" Castle was the de facto law enforcement in Gotham, I think this Joker would prefer that and lose interest in Batsy. But there is no such alternative vigilante, so it's a bit of a moot point. In a way, I see Ledger's Joker as very similar mentally to Elijah Price of _Unbreakable._ Both men murder dozens because they want desperately for the vigilante superhero to be a thing. The main difference being that Joker is trying to prevent a change from a vigilantism that's already taken hold, while Mr. Glass creates. Well that, and one's an anarchist while the other is not.

[@jasonvoorheescampblood]

I wouldnt say its a downgrade being on the same level as Batman though

[@idreeskhan8885]

He doesn't want a lack of "police," he wants police with alter egos and masks, police who go after whomever they see fit regardless of jurisdiction, police who lie to the people they protect- Why on Earth would he want this? Is he simply stupid or evil?

[@scrotiemcb5858]

@@idreeskhan8885 unironically, yes, Joker could be seen as kinda stupid. It's kinda like (but not exactly like) how Goku from Dragon Ball Super is known by his friends as the kind of idiot who would challenge a god to a fight for fun even if it could mean the destruction of the universe itself. Joker really does love Batman, at least in the sense that he loves fight fighting against him, and because of this he doesn't want to kill Bats which is... well, strongly opposed to his rational self interest. But Joker is not a rational guy. I mean, I think it's hypocritical for Joker, or at least the Nolanverse version, to tell Batman of all people that the only way to live properly is without any rules. Batman is already a serial criminal; he already breaks the rules with little hesitation if he wants to, and Joker doesn't kill when he doesn't want to. It's chaotic evil pointing at chaotic good saying "oh you're not chaotic enough." I think behind that particular BS Joker is thrilled Bats is as chaotic as he is. Joker complaining about that which he loves, trying to push it that one step closer to his idea of perfection. Manipulative personality.

[@paulhemming5376]

@Scrotie McB Not really ,Joker kills the dude that dresses up as batman

[@jasonvoorheescampblood]

@@scrotiemcb5858 how is it stupid? You literally called him manipulative

[@trackerjacker5467]

R.I.P Heath Ledger. You were a phenomenal actor and a true inspiration.

[@doctorbobcat7123]

"I heavily used my role as the Joker to illustrate the plight of gamers in our modern society" - Heath Leger

[@TheCrazystupidpeople]

It really makes you think 😔

[@adude8424]

"Women bad" - Joker 2007

[@libertusprimus]

@@adude8424 Well, they're not exactly good. So hes got a point

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@adude8424 What? He never said that.

[@johnnyvivic8730]

He never said this.

[@bigdaddypiggy]

He was quite possibly the best Villian (or portrayal of a Villian ) that I’ve ever seen in a movie

[@CajunReaper95]

Almost too real.

[@SloopADoopy]

I hope we never learn Joker’s back story. The mystery adds to the fascination.

[@Edude117]

@Peppi Roni gr8 b8, m8.

[@leeskuba3241]

@Peppi Roni pretty cringe

[@Ltcoombs1]

@Peppi Roni cringe

[@criticclips1560]

@Peppi Roni While i agree with you joker is a great superhero movie compared to the formulaic mcu and the dark depressing dceu.....we should encourage these types of films in the superhero genre

[@Walamonga1313]

Whyre you people replying to the bot lol

[@dhalanglada841]

I would love to see bane, and his philosophy of being a necessary evil.

[@brandeno919]

You think darkness is your ally…

[@MP-lc7vy]

Rhas Algul would be a better pick. Bane's philosophy isn't any different from his and in the end he is just doing it for him and his daughter. Rhas' obsession with conquering "fear" and trying to utilize it to destroy Gotham was more compelling. To him, he felt that fear was what led Gotham to corruption because the people were too afraid to fight for justice. It's that weakness he despises most. So letting the people tear themselves apart through fear seemed like a fitting punishment for them in his eyes. Just think he is the most underrated villain out of the trilogy.

[@eagleclaw006]

"I want my god damned electric car, Bruce!" -Joker

[@FrenchJae]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👌🏾

[@tankeater]

I'm pretty sure he was a Green Beret because of his planning, discipline, and ability to take that interrogation and beating with ease. Like he went to SERE School

[@tankeater]

Green hair (green beret) no facial recognition or fingerprints (government has them blocked because of classified missions)

[@robirvine6970]

@@tankeater just make shit up a lot do you?

[@CDN296]

​@@tankeaterthe thing is Batman could easily gain access to those files even if it was redacted heavily the notion itself would prove how capable the joker is .

[@tankeater]

@@CDN296 I was in the military... Knew SF soldiers... You have zero clue how dark the government gets if you think a civilian would be able to "EASILY GAIN ACCES TO THOSE FILES." 😂🤦‍♂️🙃

[@dianabryan7421]

Watching Heath Ledger play the joker sends chills down my spine! I just cannot get over his performance 😩

[@dancooke8811]

Why? He only played part of the character!

[@dancooke8811]

Oh and Under The Red Hood

[@dancooke8811]

Then play Arkham games

[@dancooke8811]

Then you'll see what I mean

[@totallynotbrucewayne6215]

@@dancooke8811 because he did an excellent job. Those are good iterations. But they are ok. Arkham joker is meh

[@ozthebeeman]

one of the reasons i love the joker so much as a villain is that there are so many different versions of the joker, all with their own unique personality and all bring something different to the table. even the worst joker has some interesting things about his personality. the joker is a perfect character that any director can focus on a different aspect of the character and make an excellent villain

[@josephlowry4320]

This is why Heath Ledger performance is still legendary since the film's release and proves why the Joker is the best villain of all time.

[@jayxtacee5695]

It's unbelievable how young Heath Ledger was when he played this iconic role

[@Missy_Polly]

I'd love to see a video on Joan Crawford from Mommie Dearest. That movie always hit close to home for me. Not your usual "evil" character but I hope you'll consider.

[@smurfette_blues7922]

That would be a really interesting analysis!

[@AtlasBlizzard]

Joker: "If I'm gonna have a backstory, I prefer it to be multiple choice."

[@lyudmilapavlichenko7551]

Jack Nicolson was a great golden age joker. The Adam West show had a great silver age joker. Heath did a fantastic bronze age joker.

[@MrAlcoholicKoala]

Much respect for the great shoutout to Heath Ledger. Dude was incredible.

[@Moszan]

Next, I would suggest Commander Rourke of Atlantis: the Lost Empire.

[@senilegoldsmith4112]

Yesssss

[@JoshRaptor215]

Oooo yes!

[@DesignzRUs1]

Yes! He's pretty underrated TuT

[@skerrkro2952]

Also Griffith from BERSERK

[@voteZDLR]

He might have been in the military but I think he's a mostly self-taught type of person, and definitely a genius. Like, deranged and all yes but a genius.

[@TheNin-Jedi]

I also heard a theory where the Joker was actually hired by the League of Shadows and as you mentioned in the video his actions are kind of a precursor to Bane. It would make sense that every major villain in this trilogy is somehow connected by the league. Yet to keep the joker more mysterious they don't tell us any of that in the movie. The difference is that he is hired and let loose on the city. "I'm like a dog chasing cars. Even if I caught it I wouldn't know what to do with it." Yet its very apparent that he's got a plan. So its very possible that he was a vet who was injured. Got home and only found more devastation from his wifes possible mutilation and eventual suicide. Maybe as he became more unhinged he grew an obsession with Batman yet because he's mad it became twisted. Maybe he somehow realized Batmans moves were similar to the league and having a heavy military background possibly heard rumors of their existence. Then they somehow find each other and they use him as a pre vengeance. Or he was doing mercenary work and they sought him out and because he lived in Gotham it worked out perfectly. I think in this version the painted face is literally just a mockery of Batman.

[@robertbusek30]

I once saw a theory that he was actually a League of Shadows agent that went rogue. That makes some sense to me because the League prizes discipline and the Joker doesn’t…

[@k_schreibz]

I don't think so and I actually think that cheapens the Joker as a character in this film quite a bit if true. The Joker is just chaos in human form. He doesn't really have a reason to do what he does and he isn't really readable. Leading the way for Bane is just happenstance more than anything.

[@Xehanort10]

The scene where Joker nearly kills the mayor is creepy because unlike many other Jokers Ledger's looked like a normal person apart from the scars and could blend in.

[@Waryfuls2]

*_I keep forgetting that he's an actor... can't help it but his role feels so real! sometimes a little too real_*

[@musicnoonelikes]

Watch Taxi Driver, you can really tell when someone is just getting it all out through their character.

[@Waryfuls2]

@@musicnoonelikes 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽heard a lot about that one

[@guyfieri148]

Yeah fun fact, he actually told bale during the interrogation to actually hit him to make the scene more realistic

[@FaceFamous]

@@guyfieri148 All true

[@BordeauxFalinks]

“Analysing Evil: Prophet of truth from the halo franchise” 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@cavemanzach9475]

This is a great idea

[@Dayonetheone]

Would you really call him evil? Or a Zealot?

[@IAsimov]

@@Dayonetheone That's the thing! Zealots don't believe they are evil in their own eyes. That's what makes zealots of any ideology so terrifying. The Prophet of Truth began as your typical aristocrat seeking to climb his way into power, and even attempted to prevent another Grunt Rebellion. But, once Humanity is discovered, and realizes they were the heirs of the Forerunners, his ideology becomes zealotry. What makes him interesting is the reason he did all of this. He declared a holy war on humanity in order to hide to the Covenant that people could be left behind in the Great Journey, in a concept similar to a "Noble Lie" (a concept coined by Plato). but, that once humanity proved to be far more numerous than he anticipated, it drags on to become a 27-year long war that makes his people begin to question it all. Then, once Halo 04 is blown up by a Demon, and Guilty Spark reveals the truth about the Holy Rings, his psyche collapses.

[@venicec3310]

Woah amazing idea 💡

[@plebisMaximus]

@@Dayonetheone Truth knowingly let Mercy die to become the sole authority. Even within his own system, he's a scheming, manipulative dickhead.

[@JustTooDamnHonest]

Now we come to the king of the villains and that is the Joker portrayed by Health Ledger(RIP). Here are a few things to add to this video about the Joker and these are. -His speeches about his scars. He changes them because in truth he has forgotten how he got them and if you know the past Jokers from DC. There is one Joker in what is called, "The Killing Joke" and in this part of the Joker's existence he tells is of the possible causes for him to become the Joker in the first place and that is the failed comic, the man who got his wife killed or just a petty criminal at the wrong place and wrong time. These are the events that is so out of sync that it comes to the point where the man who would become the Joker has forgotten his former life after he tuned into the Clown Prince of Crime. -His goal in life is to cause chaos to Gotham so that he would make people see his sick joke that society and it's laws are an illusion a bad joke being played over and over again and he is there to shine a light on it by being the agent of chaos and when he crosses paths with Batman he found his "perfect friend" in his mind and he doesn't want to kill him because without Batman there is no fun in causing chaos when there is no one who can defeat them again and again. Batman is Order and The Joker is Chaos and that is why The Joker is Batman's number one arch nemesis and as been for over 80 years.

[@dillajoints433]

What’s interesting about the dark knights iteration is that for all the chaos joker causes it’s well planned and ordered. Everyone has a role to play (even the victims) and everything is thought through. The real facade is jokers volatility and “randomness”, his speech to Harvey/Batman is manipulation, his recounting of the scars is also manipulative tactic to invoke fear and empathy in his victims or enemies. It’s so perfectly done that it even fools the audience, the only real chaos happening is in our minds, he really is the perfect villain.

[@JustTooDamnHonest]

@@dillajoints433 That is why when he said this, "Do I look like a man with a plan". He was playing on his looks and his looks show that he is insane(which he is). But he knows it and he uses that as a tactic as well. But the scars story being changed he really doesn't remember how he got them he only knows that in the end he got those scars.

[@andrealcantara1437]

Nowadays I really appreciate that feeling of "Not being sure" inna movie. It instigates a mistery and makes me imagine what is real. I know I'll never be sure, there will always be theories and that's magic.

[@_Digishade_]

VE, your work has been one of the best additions to my YT viewing in the past five years. Honestly, you're made for this and listening to your analysis is always a pleasure.

[@charlesthorndike2702]

Great video. The Vile Eye has now covered all the villains that I deem "the most important" Norman Bates - Psycho Alex DeLarge - A Clockwork Orange Jack Torrance - The Shining Hannibal Lecter - Silence of the Lambs John Doe - Se7en Patrick Bateman - American Psycho Anton Chigurh - No Country for Old Men The Joker - The Dark Knight

[@nicholassiple7838]

Nolan has confirmed that Ledger and he used a working theory this version of the Joker was former military with PTSD which also explains his skillset with weapons as well Great content sir

[@idrinkmilk282]

Link?

[@williamtobin7282]

Heath was the best actor to personify the joker. He had maticulous and madness down to a T. Methodical, psyciopathic behaviour that had the movie goer convinced he was all that he projected to be. God bless you heath, your perfection in character portrayals was a rare gift that im sure you worked very hard to master, and master it, you did. Take care son

[@ethanstump]

From my estimation, the fleck character from the joker movie is the most realistic portrayal of the criminally insane, while the heath ledger version is the most criminal. Both are great actors doing great portrayals, but one more focuses on criminality while the other focuses on insanity.

[@imhim3717]

@@ethanstump exactly. their legit tied for first . their two perfect portrayals . Heaths is more fun to watch but Phoenix is more realistic

[@williamtobin7282]

@@ethanstump Thats a very educated observation. I appreciate your analogy of the different personality disorders. Pays to know our enemy's. God Bless

[@ethanstump]

@@williamtobin7282 it helps to have a number of diagnoses myself.