Analyzing the Data on Counter Picking in Overwatch 2

[@MECAUT7]

Orisa is the "in case of 0 skill break the glass" lol

[@kmk66666]

Me fr

[@anthonyfarias5076]

Yea, for dps is soldier and for support, moira or kiriko.

[@artorias7742]

@@anthonyfarias5076 I wouldn't call Soldier no skill. He's pretty simple, but you still need solid fundemental skills to play him. Torb or Bastion are way easier imo.

[@anthonyfarias5076]

@@artorias7742 Yes, the difference is soldier is hitscan (good), bastion is also hitscan but pretty slow and only a tank buster. I play soldier when i'm like: i don't feel like making decisions and I want to play on autopilot. Or when everything else failed.

[@soIzec]

​@@anthonyfarias5076 basically what i've just been doing whenever someone decides to go pharah or echo to counter my junkrat. If i'm not allowed to have fun, you're not allowed to either.

[@florisvanklaveren5156]

love overwatch but lately I've been feeling like i just am not able to play my favourite character without someone instantly swapping. I'm also not that great at the game and just want to have a good time, someone going Orisa on my Reinhardt does not feel fun or competitive

[@jenesis3022]

tell me you main D.va without tellling me lol. felt, it is brutal rn

[@killerkeks8843]

You are the problem. You are playing reinhardt. You are choosing not to have fun in overwatch. But jokes aside, the value rein is creating is often not satisfying for the reinplayer. I love rein (reinmirror on kingsrow is peak ow) but it's unfun if your support is not babysitting you.

[@florisvanklaveren5156]

@killerkeks8843 agreed agreed, ofc I don't only play rein but the issue maintains. Orisa

[@Guava11534]

Man it’s always Orisa she counters half the cast

[@Misohawnnn]

@@Guava11534the horse has two “get back” abilities and a “get the fuck off me” ability with a “you got too close” ult

[@whiteshadowzx]

The table at the end of the video with the info about tanks and their counter swaps is great. It would be nice to see something similar for the DPS and support roles as well. It can help us build a well rounded hero pool.

[@konradnemeth9789]

Trust me, you don’t need a table for that. Gaining experience is much more important. Plus a general understanding of all heroes really makes knowing which character is good against what very simple

[@killerkeks8843]

Please don't relay on a counterswap list. There is so mutch more to include than only the tankmatchup. You have to adapt on the heros and the playstile of your / enemy team and the map. There are some exceptions like bastion as a general winstoncounter or zaria as a general Dvacounter, if the map is right.

[@343ishill]

Lmao y'all are giving terrible advice. How can you say learn from experience and adapt to the hero's playstyle w/o giving them the information to do so. Nevermind its even harder to do when you don't play all roles. Spilo has a great counterswap list btw - kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3iVk2hoi9SZm9k

[@killerkeks8843]

@@343ishill I have to inform you that there is an easy way to get experience in Overwatch: Play the game. I am happy that I was able to enlighten you. I love Spilos counterswap video. If you read my commend, you can see that I compressed the fundamental basics of it. If you expect a comment to explain the entirety of counterswaping, then you're expecting too much.

[@343ishill]

@@killerkeks8843 Like I said experience is hard to gain when you only play the game casually and not all roles. There is a reason people alot of people get hardstuck and only improve mechanically, but not their gamesene. Hope that was enough to enlighten you.

[@jyatch]

i’m a masters tank player who only stays on one character for the duration of each game. while people counter swapping can be frustrating, forcing myself to adapt my playstyle instead of just counter swapping back has definitely made me a much better player over all. I’ve played dozens of ranked matches where i could have easily won if i just picked a better character for the situation, but i value my overall improvement as a player a lot more than individual games.

[@jenesis3022]

Need people more focused on counter play over counter swapping, especially tanks. And when your tank chooses to counter play the team should listen to what they need from to team to facilitate that counter play rather than yelling for them to swap. Counterswapping seems like a desperate way to try to use game mechanics over player skill. This is detrimental to ever building character skill and understanding how to counter play when you just swap the moment you feel "oppressed" by an opposing team/character.

[@commentbot9510]

The amount of times the enemy tank is shit then swaps to counter and suddenly it’s an even fight or even a slight advantage makes me so mad.

[@HuxleysShaggyDog]

Sadly this means one has to mute your team since if you talk back when they whine you tilt them.

[@soundrogue4472]

Problem is the tanks are deep as a puddle.

[@june5877]

THIS. I had a game the other day in a Winston mirror where my teammates played heroes Winston can kill (kiri, brig, soldier) and the enemy team counterswapped me so I whenever i dove, (reaper, Cass, bap) my team would die while I stalled to wait for them to kill monkey or the enemy team would walk at me while my healers were zoned out. I decided instead of swapping, to start frontlining against their Winston and only diving off of Venture's initiations. I ended up with one 40 kills even started getting more kills because venture is so lethal they force cooldowns without doing much damage and then I can finally kill them on cds. It felt great.

[@june5877]

​@commentbot9510 you just have to learn to play into counters. It is hard, but possible. Especially because someone swapping just to counter you is probably playing a character they aren't good at. If they are, then the problem isn't that they countered you, its that they're better. Tough pill to swallow when you feel targeted like that, but a diamond zen still beats a gold wrecking ball

[@CoglinSherback]

Really cool video concept! I'd love to see what/if anything would change with a larger data set. I wish blizz would be more transparent with game data, it'd be so fun too look through a fully comprehensive data set

[@CoglinSherback]

Oh seeing any outlying data points would be cool too!

[@Chad.Commenter]

If they revealed the data then they would have no excuses left about game balance "being hard" when people realize that balancing a game is actually very easy with weaponized autism and a metric shit ton of data.

[@akaiYaMa9]

Another awesome video! I think a good reason for supports not swapping often as a support main is the fact that for 10 seasons bap, ana, kiri have mainly been the meta. Yes other supports have had moments to shine but the reality is the "support queue" pretty much could be renamed "bap, ana, kiri queue" at this point. It's the reason I stopped playing support this season lol

[@asterpw]

It's not that winning teams don't swap as much, it's that losing teams try swapping to save the game. Often it doesn't help enough so they still lose.

[@peacechief]

I want 6v6 back. 😮‍💨

[@PronounHisMajesty]

I remember you would still be able to play into somebody who counters you because you had your tank to back you up.

[@papieatsnoodles4952]

6v6 isnt going to help at all The tank role was the least popular role during OW1’s lifespan (2016-2019). The tank role in general is just not meant for someone who wants to have fun, you have to legitimately go in mentally WANTING to play that role.

[@piss5061]

@@papieatsnoodles4952it’s still like that.

[@ghoulbuster1]

6v6 is fun and blizz hates fun

[@peacechief]

@@papieatsnoodles4952 Both Tank and Support were not popular in Overwatch 1. That's mainly because there were so few heroes in the hero pool. The tank role is worse today than the end of OW1.

[@roland8357]

As an otp on every role when I get countered I'm more worried about my team tilting than the actual counters lol

[@kmk66666]

Yeah I was a masters Torb otp back during goats meta. I’d say about 10-20% of my games were thrown because “I wasn’t running meta” or somebody else wanted to play dps. It was a great time

[@lukasg4807]

​​@@kmk66666 exactly. Having a positive team seems way more important than anything else.

[@RemedieX]

@lukasg4807 Yup, and the exploitable report system doesn't even address this issue lol.

[@neonoir__]

so real

[@DocBees-g4l]

The problem is that the tank is the most powerful player in the game, so by countering them you remove more utility from the enemy team than if you countered their DPS or heals. If only there was a way to make it so that tanks didn't have more utility than the other roles. Maybe by tuning the tanks down significantly, and then making it so that there's two tanks per team so that even if there's a counter you still likely have one tank? But this sounds pretty radical, I have no idea if it would work.

[@James-zz6nq]

Your content on overwatch is incredibly enjoyable to absorb. Edutainment at its finest. Please keep making these videos!

[@sp_ce.]

The problem is they are all counter swapping *against* tanks

[@kmk66666]

*most of the time. If there is a pocketed hitscan on top of space ship 2nd point Gibraltar, and we are on Zarya, it is probably a good idea to swap to dva to contest that space

[@RemedieX]

No bro. It's usually the tank unless there's a DPS carry. At which point, counter the carry and the team crumbles unless your team bodyguards you or does the same back. Why is it like this? Idk. It's super toxic how counterwatch this game is

[@GigaAxo]

Awesome video love seeing a snapshot look at all the ranks. Its funny how silver and high gm have similar tank picks. Ty again

[@jacobj3491]

As a tank player it REALLY annoys me that only tanks seem to be capable of intelligently counter swapping. At best you might get someone who goes sombra against widow or ball. Maybe an ana against a hog. But that's if you're lucky. Most likely, your teammates will not swap at all and they will flame the tank when your team has a huge comp disadvantage.

[@DestroyerOfDoom]

Counterswitching is for bitches

[@apple-de8tx]

That's true, not to mention nobody in the lower ranks has any idea what a proper support comp looks like, and will go to default to their mercy/ moira/ lifeweaver

[@RemedieX]

Bro you're playing in like gold or plat? Every supp in Masters-GM insta swaps to Ana when they have a Hog.

[@matthewbrears2129]

In metal ranks, people just want to kill other people without thinking. That’s why DPS queue is so long compared to others. DPS in metal ranks just run around playing deathmatch lol no clue about “objectives” or “team fights”

[@lostmycat5671]

I find it kind of interesting that it seems to kinda reflect a bell curve (small sample size and counter points to why stuff happens at the top and lower end I know), I feel like it represents the meme of the bell curve where both ends say the same thing for different reasons, while the middle is "stupid" for focusing too much on it (counter swapping)

[@CorrectAverage]

IMO, I think they should allow switching heroes in between rounds. That way, there would be room for adjustments and you can discuss with your team on how you want to approach it.

[@teldaewick4747]

Sadly, I don’t think this would work: 1. The game is unbalanced, so it would be a coin toss choosing heroes at the beginning of the game. 2. In just a handful of games you will find teammates willing to communicate and adapt.

[@Chad.Commenter]

If that were the case, ONLY orissa would ever be played. ONLY Lucio/Kiriko, etc.

[@mobaisi13]

That’s assuming your team wants to discuss lmao. Imagine you pick a comp that can’t beat pharmercy and you can’t swap. Gg right out the gate

[@HelalAndre]

Well, let’s go back to 6v6

[@1CE87]

The support could be going down in swaps in higher ranking also because being often in the backlines they are going to die less and regroup better. So less opportunities to change without going back to the respawn room

[@Okra-yg7rv]

Interesting thanks for putting this together!

[@JimmyMMcGill63]

I think the biggest problem is people tell tank to swap since enemy tank has character advantages, and DPS player tends not to swap regardless If tank goes poke, rest of player should go poke characters to synergize the comp, if tank goes dive character, then whole comp should be swapped. I do that a lot when I play DPS/Support because tank is the most powerful role to take space, but is tank most impactful now? maybe not, because no matter what tank you go, if rest of your team plays whatever they want, less likely to work the comp. try follow up your tank, the games gonna be more fun and easier.

[@m.artifex2001]

Im not even able to play zen for more than 30 seconds anymore bc i instantly get met with a sombra swap. Ive been stuck in kiriko jail since her release

[@itz_yoboi_tree]

I feel like swaps should be a limited resourse . Ridiculous swapping is infinite atm

[@umbrason.]

that's fighting the symptom no the cause. if you just limit swaps, someone is going to be on the short end of the stick and will be stuck on a countered hero, once their swaps run out. At which point they are going to feel miserable because they loose agency over the game. For every player to have a good time you need to address the underlying cause that makes the swaps happen, not the swapping itself.

[@itz_yoboi_tree]

No cause it would encourage people to make the most of their picks. My only other addition to 3 swaps is they can only rotate the characters they've picked in that lobby

[@kregman6928]

@@itz_yoboi_tree youve ignored everything that guy has said and then proposed an even more restrictive idea. you cant limit swaps. all they need to do here is remove orisa and mauga and the game is fixed. no more counterswap issues. that is all. the game is literally fixed with those changes. every other hero can play into every other hero with little to no severe gameplay issues. orisa and mauga though. they cause nearly every single issue in the tank role. they have to go.

[@sp_ce.]

That is an absolutely horrible idea. Everyone should be able to swap without having an advantage at the start of the game. They have to fix tank, not bandaid fix to make it even more miserable.

[@jackmccourt6180]

This would actually deter swapping a bit. Because the first person to initiate the swap war is bound to lose as they would run out of swaps first. It would become a game of chicken.

[@Sneezy_04]

As a support main, I’ll usually start off with someone who I want to play e.g. Ana, Illari; then I’ll just swap to someone like Bap, Kiriko, sometimes Moira depending on the situation (needing more dps or more mobility)

[@ebhaenger8246]

Tanks leading in basically every rank is impressive and speaks volumes to the state of OW considering they are just half as many per lobby. If blizzard isn't charging anything about the tank experience it won't tanke to long untill the queue times are as long as they where in OW but with the difference with half as many tanks in tank to DPS/Support ratio. I stopped playing tank even though i miss the role and I wouldn't be surprised if many others are in the same position as I am.

[@l0ker507]

Funny how playing Junker Queen made most often the enemy tank play JQ as well

[@Donielism]

counter swapping is why I quit playing D.va, it just sucked the fun out of it, if every game I was winning id end up losing because they now have a Sym and a Zarya, now defense matrix means nothing and my team usually gives Zarya full charge so, that is unmanageable if you wanna only play D.va, id even go as far as to make people have to stick with initial pick decision every game, and they get to pick 2 heroes to swap between pre game, no solution will be perfect but counter swap is the most dog mechanic in the game right now

[@INTlyoshik]

I wonder why😂 shoot matrix which lasts forever worst feeling in the game. But honestly dealing with sym zarya not tank job. You need snipers that can take them down.

[@commentbot9510]

Yeah the only hope against a full beam team is that you get a vertical map like Numbani, Paraiso, or Watchpoint Gibraltar. If you face that cancer on Lijang tower then they pretty much just win for free and all the fun gets sucked out of the game.

[@commentbot9510]

@@INTlyoshik you are a masochist if you believe DM is the worst thing. I guess you like being yanked by hog hook, hacked by Sombra, booped around by Orisa, discorded, anti’d, etc. more than having your damage blocked for 3 seconds. What an absolutely idiotic take. It’s an opinion so bad that you’re stupid to have it.

[@skylergrey1893]

@@INTlyoshikif you have to have your entire team restructured because of tank counters MAYBE adding more agency to those hero’s would make the game feel better, who knows, for sure not the devs

[@ccalvac18]

Great video! I'm curious which ranks typically have the most One-Tricks. I'm probably in the minority of people who never swap on my main role (tank) but do swap on my off-roles to mainly enable my comp. I'm a Doom main and never ask others to swap for me but constantly get told to swap; I like being on the opposite end when I'm on my off-roles and try to aid what my tank is trying to do.

[@neonoir__]

I'm the same way actually, on dps im a genji one trick, but when I play tank I play zarya, dva, monkey, usually starting on either zarya or dva depending on map and swapping if i need more mobility/they have a zarya to counter dva

[@LouPhonze]

I always try to swap to tanks I'm more comfortable than counter swapping but it cannot be denied that some heroes can destroy others with less effort, meaning: I can usually win a zaria match with dva but it takes me more effort and energy to do so than to go for a counter. so the real balance would be making tanks(specifically tanks cause is only one player that has to do multiple jobs: defend, open space and peel) less one tricks or less niche

[@MrWithmere]

Fantastic video! Great analysis. Funny enough I predicted before watching that masters would be the peak and it would trail off, and that's exactly what the data shows. I'm a mid-GM tank player, and from my perspective, I see diamond/masters streamers who constantly counterswap and complain about swapping. There is a key difference between NEEDING to swap and just swapping based off perceived need to swap. I've tried explaining to these diamond streamers before that ZBRA wouldn't need to swap in diamond, even when playing vs counters, and that the diamond players need to focus on improvement and getting better at the game; swapping is only stifling their growth. However, they aren't very responsive to that advice. They just decide to keep endlessly counterswapping, never improving, and staying in diamond/masters forever.

[@HamburgerWasteland]

Imma still one trick ball 😂

[@benjiblazed]

As a support main, I do feel for the tank players. I always want them to succeed on my team, but damn do some of them just want to be stubborn and play comps that just get countered so easily. I feel like you can be good with a hero and still have validity in playing them even if you get countered as long as you can out school the other side, but this also depends on your team backing you up. Ow is firstly and most importantly a team based game.

[@emacliftsalot]

As someone who has climbed to top 500 1 tricking only works on the high skill cap/flexible heros

[@allbadtakes]

Very well made video with good information. It would be interesting to see a plot of when swaps happen during games. I would guess that at metal ranks swaps occur mostly after the 1st fight and on last point defence. I would also suspect that many of the support swaps relate to the tank rather than to DPS or enemy supports, especially in metal ranks. If I play hog, after the first fight it is almost guaranteed the enemy will swap to Ana and possibly Zen or LW (for pull). DPS will swap reaper/torb/sojourn/etc. This starts the cycle where the tank then has to swap, but it may not show in your table because the tank is not swapping because of the enemy tank, but because the others are swapping specifically to counter the tank. Mauga, Hog, JQ all suffer Ana jail and are hard-hit by zen. Orisa to some degree too by the same supports as she is hard to kill without a damage orb or being purpled. There is a lot more to it than just looking at what the enemy tank was playing when a tank swaps.

[@luenanda4432]

If you are anyone but especially tank, you should have like 2-3 playstyles with your main. Also talk to your team. I’m a one-trick Ramattra but normally play with friends. Have the dos switch to kill the tank that’s bothering you or a support that can help you win the tough matchup. You got this guys play who you enjoy

[@IronBassMusic]

Great video. Thank you!

[@Eridu]

How do you get access to these games to spectate? Or are you pulling it from the API? I feel like we have very limited tools with the api for overwatch, i wish it was similar to League where basically everything in game is public

[@kmk66666]

I find replays posted online of people looking for vod reviews and do it all by hand 😅 for the high GM games I asked a few GM3+ streamers for replay codes and some were nice enough to give me some 🙂

[@Htiy]

Personally I stick to doom, hanzo, and zen on each role for comp, and I dont swap. Learning to play around matchups to me is more rewarding and fast than counterswapping. Maybe the average genji destroys a hanzo, but I understand that without deflect and dash, the 1v1 swings to hanzos favor. Maybe the average sombra spawncamps a zen, but ive played her enough times to save my ult and to spycheck Maybe the average roadhog decimates a doom, but ive gotten used to baiting hook and canceling breather

[@romansrevengethethirdstrik8086]

I wish you reorganized the data to try to check roughly why every player swapped to 1. Be able to tell when people are swapping to comfort picks or countering, and who. and 2. Remove excess swapping from people who swap 5 times in a match to counter one enemy hero and just swap over and over because they're losing. I feel like that could give a better view of countering compared to just swapping in general which you might do for a variety of reasons like Team synergy, wanting to play someone else, attack vs defend side swap, you don't know the map and picked someone not great for it, and probably more. obvs less applies the higher you go up, but swapping also lowers down there too so there may be some weight to checking it again

[@kmk66666]

Yeah it’s just hard to know 100% why somebody swapped so it would be difficult to track as a concrete statistic. But I do agree the reason as to why people swap is also important to try and understand

[@nivrad00]

Would you consider analyzing how likely it is to win certain tank matchups? Eg how likely is it for a Dva to win a teamfight against a Zarya in each rank? Your data is really good at showing how often people counterswap, but it doesn't show that people SHOULD be counterswapping so much.

[@kmk66666]

I mean, there are 12 tanks with 144 combinations. Would be a lot to test all of them to a point I’d be happy with

[@nivrad00]

​@@kmk66666 o true, i didnt think of how many combinations there are

[@Guava11534]

I started one-tricking doom in the last half of season 9 and have continued in season 10 I’ve learned that I enjoy playing OW the most when in play doom so I don’t really care about counterpicking anymore especially since we no longer gain extra competitive points for placing higher in the season. I play in Plat 3 and I’ve learned I can outplay most tanks but as soon as they play Orisa or sombra or both I’m pretty much fucked. I’ve tried to play around them trying to bait my movements but it just ends with me wasting my cooldowns and achieving nothing. It really sucks because it happens every game now i play doom, stomp, counter pick into Orisa and Sombra and my game gets ruined because those heroes are brain dead hard counters so there’s not much I can do. I’m starting to switch Zarya in those situations but damn it’s not as fun.

[@yaboyjuice102]

Honestly, if you know your hero and also how other heroes in your role are played, you will be able to counter play. Counter swap is necessary in certain situations, but if you rely on it, there is definitely room for error.

[@sneezebazooka6068]

I've only been playing since season 8 and am currently silver 4 in asia on tank and in my experience, the counter-swapping rate is a lot higher unless one tricking. However tank was also the least common role for one tricking, either due to all the one trickers being in higher ranks. Tbh I mostly play sig cause he's one of those tanks that can still play even if youre counterswapped unless its something crazy like 3 counters/ 2 good players countering me, to swap to a dive tank like monkey if no one is hitting the backline or swapping to dva to negate enemy reaper/pharah ults if theyre good

[@Xilophonen]

lower ranks are learning the game, the middle ranks are grinding ranks, the high ranks are improving themselves

[@cccspwn]

I play Widowmaker alot, but as soon as I get a few picks, they instantly swap Sombra 😅. As they should, because a widow that’s left alone wipes your entire team.

[@Ingu.z]

On support I one-trick Moira. On DPS I play Echo and Torb. On tank I play Winston, DVa, Zarya, Orisa, Sigma, Rein, sometimes Mauga, and once in a while Roadhog if it's Ilios Well. I used to play a lot of Junker Queen, but not really any more.

[@Kiyoko-vb8un]

Hey again, can I get assistance with data analysis of player chat bans? I requested my data through the GDPR form request and the data doesn't make sense. Blizzard CS confirmed that penalties are triggered by reporting a player. However, all 2024 Complaint History data is missing from my report. I want to see if this is a systemic issue with data collection, if this breaks EU GDPR Privacy Laws, and if this can become a strong enough case against Blizzard that they are forced to reevaluate their penalty system.

[@gregnog8119]

Now I play a very good orisa, but she's such an issue for the rest of the cast, I like to play ramattra in quick play because he's cool, but if I start winning the enemy swaps orisa and I start losing... It's just not fun when every game is decided by the fact that I was good at orisa when she was bad, and the opponent is bad when orisa is good, it sucks the fun out of the game when it happens every game in quick play of all places I play orisa when the enemy goes orisa, or when the whole enemy team is playing "boop central" and have 40 different boop buttons to push you around with, I'm a former orisa main and I only play her as a reaction to outside circumstances now and not for my own enjoyment of the play style and it makes me sad But I feel like orisa does do something right, she turns off CC and it feels so good to not get knocked around 24/7 this season with how many people are running Lucio and venture in both ranked and quick play, soft CC and movement abilities are hurting overwatch slowly, too many characters can push, and too many characters can dash GIVE SOME MORE TANKS "NOT MOVE BUTTONS " AND THE GAME WOULD BE MORE FUN, just don't give everyone fortify that would be dumb let's be reasonable here If early overwatch 2 is the "dead by daylight" era of overwatch then this era is the "halfway point of apex legends" they had this exact problem with Gibraltar having an absurd win rate for being too damn good at his job, and too much team movement available on characters like octane, so nobody died because of octane and Gibraltar saving everyone, and everyone ratted their way to the top by fleeing constantly and third partying the leftovers, orisa is basically the Gibraltar of overwatch, she's big and doesn't move and that's what she does and it wins games

[@floofzykitty5072]

I think support swaps decrease as you get higher because the supports are dying less lol. Remember death will impact how often you can swap.

[@paulink]

as a queen otp, hearing the orisa stat physically hurts me. She's such a pain in the ass, not only for me but having to lecture my team on how to deal with her. More often than not it's easier to swap to zarya, but no guarantee it will make a difference lol.

[@Mr-atom55]

Playing Winston and not playing against a reaper, sombra, bastion, hog or mauga is practically unheard of.

[@lrmcatspaw1]

Very interesting video. Sample size might be a bit low but still usefull iformation.

[@Nandezaron]

I played ow2 beta when every game was what is now called 'no limit'. Kaplin mentioned swaps were supposed to be important. Pretty sure the game was built around swaps

[@kmk66666]

It is, but people have opinions on how much swapping is too much. I’m not here to make that decision, just show how often people are swapping. Some people don’t like playing mystery heroes lol

[@josealbertofernandez4593]

I think it would be nice to examine the conditional probability of win given swap. And also a comparison of number of swaps given win and number of swaps given loss. If swapping truly has no effect then doing a two sided t test would tell you the answer. Overall pretty good video tho! Would be nice to see something like this at a larger scale

[@kmk66666]

Yeah I wish I could make these bigger just to really nail down the percentages, but I can barely get two of them out per month with working full time 😅

[@cottonuwu3167]

They should put a limit o how much times you can swap a character in a game. Like maybe 3 times and youre stuck with those 3 in that game. So the first team to counter swap has a disadvantage as at the end the last one evailable to counter swap would be oposing team. Tired as fuck that i play with genji and they just go to moira sym and mei.

[@BagelBoi4000]

I need the devs to start minimising hard counters by introducing intresting counterplay to most abilities and by reducing the amount of tank buster characters. Game would be so much more fun then.

[@kmk66666]

Yeah I was thinking about that. Could potentially reduce Dva’s DM time and redistribute power somewhere else in the kit for example. Better damage or mobility probably. Would make her less annoying to play against with an hour long DM and reduce the hard counter of Zarya making her useless.

[@BagelBoi4000]

@@kmk66666 little stuff like that adds up, and to be honest zar into DVA is one of the less painful counters. I just desperately want a way to play winton into mauga, bastion, reaper, brig, zen without tearing my hair out

[@kmk66666]

@@BagelBoi4000 yeah they started making a bit of a difference with him damaging through armor. I agree they could add something to help him there

[@neonoir__]

make dm, sigma eat, orisa spin and deflect block beams, solves a lot of the problem

[@jerod256]

I just leave voice and text. And if I feel I need to swap I do but I don't have to listen to teammates flaming me because I'm not

[@ANeonGenesis]

This is a great video.

[@jor1466]

So called free thinkers when they see an orisa on the other team

[@Turin-Fett]

I don’t swap. Genji one trick for life

[@Kobalt-uh8sp]

If orisa, then go zarya If zarya, then go rein If rein, then go orisa That was my games yesterday, and it worked most of the times.

[@kmk66666]

I had a tank legit make 11 swaps against me one game after calling me out for counter swapping after swapping twice 😅

[@spyrospycrab1815]

i wish my dps swapped more in gold but yeah the tank and support swaping feels about right.

[@holyfrog7692]

W video but i think you conclusion about needing to play 4 or 5 tanks does not take swapping back into tanks you have already played that game

[@kmk66666]

That’s true! There was one tank player that went Ball, Dva, Zarya, Dva, Zarya, Ball, so this does happen

[@therealzahyra]

How did you watch these games?

[@kmk66666]

I got replay codes from people on r/OverwatchUniversity

[@staysyvl]

not sure if youd see this but i truly believe both this video and the video of watching 200 overwatch team fights are being hindered by your title, i found your teamfight video off of looking up what the percent rate of winning a team fight if you get the first pick is, super cool and detailed video, really think a more capturing title could garner a lot lot more views. super cool vids bro. EDIT: maybe you could look at "jxmyhighroller" vid titles, its generally sports he talks about, but the same titles could apply because they are usually very enticing...like "Statistically Proving Why You Lose 80% Of Your OW Games" ,, or something idk

[@kmk66666]

@@staysyvl yeah still new to the YT stuff, also haven’t played OW in a hot minute, but appreciate the feedback!

[@staysyvl]

@@kmk66666 yea fs,, reuploading or redoing the title of that vid i think would be super cool and do numbers fssss bro, like no one else is doin it and it could help a lot of ppl rank up , obv it takes mad time tho

[@commentbot9510]

I’m an OTP on tank and only making it work rn because the stars aligned and my counters are bad while my main is great in the meta. Prior to S9 I had stopped playing tank because of the constant counter swapping. Even though I could deal with counters sometimes, having it be like that *every game* is extremely exhausting and boring. I only care about playing and getting good at my hero. I’m not dedicating 100 hours to getting good with another tank I don’t even find that fun just because blizzard ruined the game.

[@lukasg4807]

Counter swapping isn't important. I'm a doom otp and the teams that try to hard counter me normally seem more likely to lose because they're not on their best heroes and all their util gets wasted on me. Same shit with stuff like bastion into winston. Sure he can shred him but winstons dps should be able to shred bastion.

[@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord]

Your logic only works if your talking about free play. You cant sit there and tell be me when you get a group of players around the same level. The team thats completely counters the other team doesn't have a massive advantage.

[@prismaticpaul]

personally i think reaper is worse for winston because bastion without turret form doesn't do all that much to you. If you can bait it out before you jump in, or just drop from highground so that you have shift available to get out in case bastion transforms, it should be manageable. Reaper's massive dps on tanks isn't tied to any cooldown, and wraith can be used as a reload if you aren't out of position and in need of an escape.

[@lukasg4807]

@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord you can't counter an entire team? Wdym lmao.

[@Dexwin09]

Imagine having a mode where you lock in 2 heroes of the selected role to play as on rank 😂

[@puck2694]

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that swapping on tank is a problem and actually effective, when your data shows opposite.

[@kmk66666]

I think it can help turn the tables of a losing game, and at least give you a chance of winning instead of getting rolled. Say I’m on ball and they have Sombra, Cass, Hog, Brig, Moira, and I’m getting rolled. Switching to Orisa or Zarya at least gives me the chance of winning. It’s hard to come to any conclusions with this data, especially since I didn’t build it around win rate. That was just one data point I tracked. I was more just looking into how often people swapped at each role and rank and call it a problem because it is happening so often

[@musicxxa6678]

i play all roles. swapping feels natural when i play dps since im the unlocker role but tank and sup should have a bit less swap necessity i think. i also think heroes like orisa hog mauga doom should never be meta.

[@lukasg4807]

What's wrong with doom?

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

Bruh I can’t believe we now have a game where higher level players feel forced to swap heroes in order to be effective. Shouldn’t a healthy game be one where at the highest rank in the game players can outplay counters by mastering their heroes and teamwork? Shouldn’t they understand the composition their team is running, and only really need to swap if they are changing strategies AS A TEAM or swapping quick for a stall? I guess that’s the case in high GM where they’ve optimized the meta. Bring back 6v6. At least in that format you selected heroes based on synergizing with your team or what fit the situation better and not on ruining the enemy’s (usually the tank’s) fun. Edit: also I agree with your point about counterwapping being effective even if they don’t win all the time. Generally the person getting tank diffed is who swaps. It’s why the devs think Orisa is bad because they look at her winrate but they don’t realize many players don’t want to lock the horse they just switch to her when they are losing.

[@brian856]

W content. L swapping tanks

[@plxxyaa]

idk abt the other ranks but at least on console metal ranks it’s quite literally counter watch and then everyone in chat gets super toxic about it

[@plasma-5330]

Knowing what heroes counter what and why and how to execute those counters takes skill. Being able to play multiple heroes takes skill. Counter-picking is what makes Overwatch, Overwatch. One tricking should be viable but never optimal. And given that there are one tricks of every hero in top 500 I'd say one tricking is already viable

[@kmk66666]

But how much counter picking is too much? Should you have to swap every other life to play optimally?

[@emacliftsalot]

Top 500 also has more 1 tricks

[@jalter4818]

Counter-picking it's not the problem. Marrying to one character is the real problem. This is no fighting game where you have to stay with that character until the match ends, or Moba where you purchase items to adjust your character to the match. This is a multi situational shooter. So it's almost a obligation for you to at least try the entire cast and do your best. IF your only focus is winning, obviously.

[@vicfirth1]

I just miss the teamwork of Overwatch one.

[@TheWillsss]

I don't have much experience in either rank; but I feel like top 500 is bronze with good mechanics. I know that it's probably not the case, but it sure as hell feel like it. I'm happy the data reflects that :P

[@WinterMcDuck]

I think that there are zero conclusions to be drawn from tis data. Still better than no data as long as it isnt being fallaciously applied to any discussions. A different note: I dont think confirmation bias is quite the correct term at 6:47, it sounds to me like more of an issue with correlation versus causation. Although confirmation bias is certainly relevant at other points in this video. For example at the end where you said (implicetly) you were expecting to find that tanks were most affected by counterswapping. This might have even impacted what data points you decided to investigate. However, I'm pretty confident youre already well aware of this. Which is probably why you for the most part refrained for drawing conclusions from your data. Anyway, pretty good video, i left a like

[@kmk66666]

Yeah, there isn’t really a correct answer for “how much swapping is too much” so I leave that up to the viewers/players to decide for themselves.

[@GIVEMEACID]

I make it work, i force myself to have fun so i dont hate the game like yall do

[@meterothecrow6270]

It's not that big of an issue. You are playing the counter game all the time. If the other guy wants to lose ult charge for a more predictable playstyle so be it.

[@kmk66666]

Or they’ll play for two lives, use ult, and then swap. Tank players out here playing mystery heroes

[@Saydyrya]

Interesting vid

[@itsjustques]

Me being a doom one trick tht never swaps on tank😂

[@kmk66666]

I’ve run into some pretty nasty doom otps in GM. We ran hog, Sombra, Mei, brig, Kiri into one one time and we still lost 😅

[@anthonyfarias5076]

It's fine, doom one tricks are actually good at the game.

[@PersonaMona5264]

Honestly, focusing on one hero and learning the ins and outs including match ups, it makes the game a lot less overwhelming in terms of swapping.

[@happybuggy1582]

League of rock paper scissors

[@SickoStarz]

Just wish I could play dva against zarya w/out my whole team screaming at me 😭 how will I learn to play against her if you won’t help me n just want me to tank v tank the whole time

[@fybso3057]

I person refuse to see countering as a big issue. There are so many factors in the games that just 1 ore 2 heroes don't make too much of a difference imo. I believe blaming my bad performance on 'getting countered' is just another type of bad mentals and ill just try improving and giving my best with whatever hero im playing at the moment

[@kmk66666]

Yeah it does kinda just put a bandaid on the issue. As a bastion main I really struggle against top 200 Tracer players, so if I’m getting farmed I usually just go Sombra and avoid them. But, if my aim was better, or I was more aware of their play styles I could potentially out play them. It’s something I need to work on, but I do think it’s my duty to my team to swap if I’m just getting farmed and pulse bombed on cooldown for that game, while I work on countering them over time

[@Bluemansonic]

Dedicated

[@robinbodefjord223]

Having been ranked in everything from bronze through diamond I'd say that bronze with fundamental mechanics is around gold. Gold with either positioning, game sense or good mechanics is plat and above that you need to start combining skill sets to remain at that level Juat my take though

[@killerkeks8843]

True. I am Diamond, caus I have fundamental mechanics and a good gamesence/positioning and I am communicating with my team. It's not hard to get to diamond if you understand the game.

[@maxchess6734]

Hi from the junkrat mafia

[@emacliftsalot]

So essentially good tanks have to swap for their teams lack of flexibility to help them. 😂😂😂

[@relaycorps6898]

Where did the honor of picking your favorite character and just learning them and getting good go. :(

[@SayajinKanak]

Nice

[@williammueller8253]

somebody send this to blizzard

[@Exirock]

I stopped playing OW cause i stay with one damn hero for more then a few seconds cause i have counter swap, i remember being able to play hog and lucio an entire game now i cant even play them hog people say its immortal right now but can be easily shutdown, lucio u dont need a sombra or good hitscan just pick moira cause with the current oversized hitboxes she can suck people from very far and i had it happen me behind a wall and she still can dmg me cause of the hitbox, the devs are bad but they just dont want to reverse the game back to ow1 6v6 and its balance, they want to keep ow2 since it was suppose to be a new game and maintain the biggest problem that is 5v5+no balancements.

[@insanitynears]

Super easy way to reduce swapping - nerf all tanks to dps levels - the only reason people counter tanks the hardest is because enemy tank dead means team fight won. make tanks ass - let's say, junkrat level. if you kill a junkrat did you win a team fight? no. People would now have to make a choice if to counter tank/dps/support instead of braindead swapping to make tank disappear and the game becomes interesting again. Also if instead of focusing on staying alive tanks were focused on making plays, tank role would become interesting finally and not a damage sponge with a turret.

[@lamarpalmer25]

People go about this isssue the wrong way. The question should be WHY people are counter swapping. Maybe certain characters are busted without some one to keep them in check 😮 Nobody is counter swapping 76, junk rat or bastion. Nobody is counter swapping Moira or brig or bap But widow and hanzo? Yes. Tracer? Yes? Sombra? Yes Pretty much every tank? Yes because they are inherently BUSTED without them. Doomfist without counter would ruin the game. Same as dva and zarya Most games balance tank,dps and support roles by making tanks slow bullet sponges with displacement abilities. Overwatch makes them super saiyan dps. It’s hard to balance because of it

[@schwolmart]

Swapping is lava

[@erickmejia1643]

Counter picking has always been a core feature of the game ever since the very beginning. Why are people just complaining about it now? I feel like the increase of new players from going ftp brought a more casual/traditional fps audience, which are not acustomed to the unique gameplay elements of overwatch. This would also go into why I see a lot more complaints about why x role ruins overwatch. Defined roles and counterswapping are core parts of overwatch from the very beginning, and I don't see either of these things going away, so ultimately if you are un satisfied with supports or tanks, or only want to have to play one character, maybe overwatch isnt for you.

[@lordecaroline]

support players need to swap more.... dudes would play lucio into a massive amount of burst dmg or with a mercy n then get mad the tank for not making space. like maybe get off lucio n help?

[@basilenordmann7356]

1 hour of watching is not data, it’s a mere roll of dices…

[@kmk66666]

Okay, improve on it and go record data for 100 hrs at each rank then compare to mine 🙂

[@basilenordmann7356]

@@kmk66666 I can considerably reduce the amount of work needed by just focusing on the best category of play. Because it’s what’s matter at the end, who cares if people win more by switching heroes or not when they make a billion mistakes a game? The question is, are the best players in the world forced to switch to win, or do they still have the possibility of getting their skills even higher and overcome « passive value » I can do that, video should be out in 3 months if I am able to play enough.

[@kmk66666]

The point of the vid was t to see what was best to climb necessarily. All other streamers keep talking about the “counter swapping problem” without providing any data on it, so I just wanted to see how often people actually were counter swapping in each rank and role

[@basilenordmann7356]

@@kmk66666 Then I can answer the question : the best way to climb is to get better.