Ancient Chinese Historian Describes The First Christians (635 AD) // The Nestorian Stele

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Taken from the text of the Nestorian Stele:
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ne...
Translation of the Nestorian Inscription by Jingjing, translated by Alexander Wylie
Music from Epidemic Sound and Artlist
Image Credits:
By 三猎 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Pagoda By J. Coster - Photographed by J. Coster on visit to the pagoda on May 31, 2003.copyright J. Coster. Thanks, Jcoster 06:14, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC), CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...

[@drraoulmclaughlin7423]

Brilliant! For historical context I recommend the chapter by Professor Samuel Lieu, ‘Nestorian Christians and Manichaeans as Links between China and Rome’ in Kim, Lieu & McLaughlin, ‘Rome and China: points of Contact’ (2021).

[@sunnyboy4553]

Thank you very much. I am currently reading Devotional Classics edited by Richard J Foster and James Bryan Smith. It is a collection of the early writings (and some modern mystics) going back to the 4th Century and St. Augustine. I am a "renewed Christian" and focusing on learning from the Early Church and early saints and mystics whose lives were steeped in Holiness for instruction and guidance. I will look up that book you mentioned. I already learned so much from this wonderful video!

[@goyguy3211]

I also enjoyed the Oera Linda....

[@NA-pr7sf]

God loves that we seek him.. God bless

[@benjaminlefkowitz9463]

Always nice to see a citation around here

[@dariusghodsi2570]

The link is the Iranosphere

[@mjr_schneider]

"The new religion of the silent operation of the pure spirit of the triune" has got to be the Chinesest possible way to describe Christianity.

[@tomemery7890]

And it sounds really cool

[@---iv5gj]

it sounds strange in english, in reality it would be more similar to german stacking words

[@williamwan3712]

"三一淨風無言之新教，陶良用於正信" this is the original Chinese text of the tablet. The term "new religion" describes the new church founded by Jesus. The reason this sounds strange is because nestorian missionaries used a lot of Chinese Taoist terms to describe the concept of Christianity.

[@MadHatter42]

I also quite like the idea that the the cross is modeled on the four points of the compass, and that baptism isn’t to wash away “sin” but rather “ostentation”. Viewing these Christian principles through very Chinese visions of nature and the individual.

[@letsomethingshine]

@@MadHatter42 South is the longest point? "And Jesus said, go and clean not all of the sin, but all of the ostentation/show-off from yourselves and become Submissive to the Poor, who are ME by any other name!" ~ Said no conservative Christians and neofundamentalists ever.

[@AdrienneJung.M]

I have a history degree from a public university and I am often dissappointed in the modern "historical" works we were given to study. The authors rarely present the historical texts in a straightforward way. They seem more interested in presenting their thesis to you than allowing their readers to simply view the original source material themselves. Modern historians are taught to quilt together fragments of history in order to construct whatever narrative, thesis, or hot take they are interested in. But this channel offers no commentary, they simply let these documents speak for themselves. Thank you for your work.

[@MidnightIsolde]

Very true. I also have a history degree, so have had the same observations sometimes. I've also found that it depends what particular historical area one looks at, as some areas seems to be worse for this than others. My specialism was medieval, specifically crusades and most leasing scholarship there is solid with little influence of trendy critical theories. Depends where the historiography is and influential scholarship. Once the more fragmented and ideological influences sets in, that's when you see this problem.

[@AdrienneJung.M]

@@MidnightIsolde That’s true. My emphasis was on post Industrial America and urbanization.

[@KD400_]

​@@AdrienneJung.Mwell ur a nice looking woman if u don't mind me saying lol

[@AdrienneJung.M]

@@KD400_ thank you Muhammad Ali

[@KD400_]

@@AdrienneJung.M lol well thanks.

[@nocomment2468]

“It’s principals will survive when the framework is forgotten” Now that is brilliant. Not always the case, but we have seen a shift in this direction 1500 years later

[@jwilson544]

I was about to say the same thing. While Christianity is Changing/decreasing places like America, people still hold the lessons that Christianity have made with high regard.

[@nocomment2468]

@@jwilson544 yes. For instance, I’m not a Christian, but I find the core values very beautiful and compelling. I hope that Christians see that as a commendation- that those outside of their belief system find wisdom in its teachings.

[@cameronbruce9650]

It's also true, although many people aren't religious anymore we should always see Jesus as a great philosopher and use some Christian principles going forward as a society

[@jacklaurentius6130]

@@nocomment2468 eh, it’s a compliment. I learned not to believe what non Christians say about what Christ taught because more often than not, they don’t seriously study it anyway.

[@eho6380]

@@jacklaurentius6130 Your pfp is cancer

[@aqui1ifer]

I’m honestly amazed at how the Tang were impressed by Christianity. I’m also perplexed that they keep mentioning Syria as if it’s independent, when it was likely still a part of Eastern Rome by the time the missionary left for China.

[@LiteralCrimeRave]

All but China is barbarian .China never cared for what the Barbarians called themselves, when the British came in the 1700s, they greeted them in Latin, the language of the far western barbarians as far as they were concerned.

[@Baron_Wurst]

@@LiteralCrimeRave Desperate words spoken by the sick man of Asia.

[@LiteralCrimeRave]

@@Baron_Wurst They we're doing pretty well at the time. Relatively speaking. Definitely had a hard fall pretty soon after.

[@laurensb1b]

Syria was often used synonymously with the western Levant. Like how they sometimes called all of Africa Libya

[@aqui1ifer]

@@LiteralCrimeRave The Han Wudi would disagree; China considered the Romans their equal, which doesn’t happen often.

[@andyzhang7890]

As a Christian Chinese my mind is blown. I’ve known about the stele for some time but never expected the text to be so otherworldly and beautiful…

[@helvetius1572]

文章精妙绝伦，彻底弄懂绝非易事。

[@sheerluckholmes7720]

@@OSULLIVAN101 Elementary dear O'Sullivan ! Do continue,or is that your final opus?🙄

[@8-bitpersona16]

@@OSULLIVAN101oh, how enlightened you must be…

[@agarykane2127]

@@OSULLIVAN101you seem to be a highly educated person, so I will definitely consider your opinion

[@SquareNoggin]

It's absolutely great. I'm going to try and commit it to memory (at least some of it) so I can recite it to other Christians.

[@MM-vs2et]

The Tang basically did the missionaries' job. They were like "Cool book, tell you what, you build a temple or whatever you guys call it right down the street there and get like 20 of your priests to man it. Ohh and we'll be making copies and spread it across our territories. Have a nice day"

[@kurteisner67]

Well, yes, but everything comes with a catch. Because the Tang essentially were so welcoming at that time, later on under the reign of Emporer Wuzong they were like: "This Buddhism thing has gotten really out of control, we need to persecute them, including the Buddhist sect that is Christianity." Of course people said, "Hold up, Christianity isn't Buddhist", but to this it was replied: "Yeah right. Our ancestors established that Christianity is compatible with Buddhism, which makes it Buddhist in nature."

[@ReformedSooner24]

Christ grows His church and cares for it.

[@Hannestv4607]

True love = the love of God! *God himself went to the cross for you out of love for you as a human being* Philippians 2:5-8

[@zaggers77]

Christ is good. He loves you.

[@rosecloudheaven5953]

@@kurteisner67 😮

[@jaromgregson8923]

"Without holy men, principles can not be expanded. Without principles, holy men can not become magnified. But with holy men and right principles united as the two parts of a signet, the world becomes civilized, and enlightened." This wisdom from my brethren in Christ in China gives me an amazing joy.

[@Fire_ov_Renewal]

Oh is that what this is. Christianity is EVIL! It is universal weakly trash!

[@leadcloud8290]

The original ancient Chinese text is even more epic. Ancient Chinese is elegant, succinct and during this period, highly highly stylized (the verbal rhythmic, the pairing of words etc). Just glorious glorious writing.

[@Purwapada]

where can i learn more about it? i always loved how poetic chinese texts were

[@Rin_Chawngthu]

@@Purwapada same, i also wanna know

[@hugoramirez7510]

Messiach in Hebrew, Messias in Latin, Messiah in English all sounds almost alike. So who added christ/ Christianity/ Christian unless you starting a new religion Rome beliefs with bible beliefs you get a new religion Christianity.

[@Hannestv4607]

*The ETERNAL GOD would do anything for you!!* Even out of love for you he went to the cross as a human!! Philippians 2:5-8

[@rk8895]

@@hugoramirez7510 Hopefully this answers your question. Christ means "the anointed one" in Greek, and "Christ" was a title given to Jesus. The term "Christians" was coined by the non-Christian people living Antioch (a Greek speaking city). It specified the group of people who were "the Christ-followers" or "little Christs": the people who followed the teachings of Jesus the Christ.

[@MihanTheNoob]

"... Its principles will survive when the framework is forgotten. It is beneficial to all creatures. It is advnatageous to mankind .." These words speak volumes!!

[@daithiocinnsealach3173]

And the same is true of all the great religions. It is speaking to the wisdom of the religion, not the belief system. That's the point. So get rid of your belief in Jesus as God and go be a good person.

[@mike-0451]

@@daithiocinnsealach3173 It is not true of all great 'religions'. The endless cycle of suffering is not true, nor is it universal. Get rid of your belief in Jesus as God? If you do that, then you forgo the entire point. You can't be a good person unless you acknowledge that the words of Jesus and his acts were from God, otherwise you might as well take them like the opinion of some random bloke.

[@petrabanjarnahor229]

@@daithiocinnsealach3173 this tilted me tbh. Do you even know God's capabilities ..

[@Bosscheesemo]

@@daithiocinnsealach3173 Islam went on to kill 80-100 million Hindus in the world's largest still-standing genocide. This is more than the sum total if all Christian-caused deaths in (roughly ballpark estimate) +The Crusades 100% forgiving anything Islam did during them +The Hugenot Rebellion between Catholics and Protestants +The Inquisition +Recoquista +The 80 years war (not actually religious but we don't care we're adding the number in to get competitive with Islam) +Sum total of all Habsburg wars.

[@LaplacianFourier]

Yes Hitler certainly benefitted from the full support of catholic church and Pope Pius XII in the Final Solution (read the unimpeachably researched book titled "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell). Children all over catholic world are benefitting from the "loving pastoral care" when 70 year old virgins are forced to repress innate mammal sexual desires and are forced to perversely enacted them out by child abuse and rape. The other half of christianity can't wait for the death cult of Rapture and Armageddon. Religion infects the minds of otherwise sane persons and commit them to real evil. Evil comes from religion.

[@amadeusasimov1364]

Interesting. As a Christian, that sounded like quite the eloquent and epic description of Jesus and Christianity. And it was surprising to hear them have such favor towards Christianity at the time.

[@danielwmwolf]

Against their better judgment. Spreading lies and BS since the beginning of this whole cockup.

[@GermanFreakvb21]

Considering how hostile the communist government is towards Christianity nowadays, it´s wonderful to hear how they first embaced Christians as equals in such a courteus manner.

[@gofish7388]

@@GermanFreakvb21 Christianity is growing faster in China right now than it did in Rome in the past. I don't think they're being targeted specifically because they're Christians right now. It's more of a general suspicion towards any religion.

[@IMZaMaNa37]

CCP isn't against Christianity, they are against all religions. There are approximately 100 million Christians currently in china

[@matthewnelson6103]

@@GermanFreakvb21 Its a very fast growing religion, Government officials try to control it as they see it as subversive. Besides outright censoring they set up churches and denominations approved and controlled by the state that are severed from outside influence but many faithful in China see it for what it is and worship and gather in communion in their homes instead. Many pastors in my church's community network go to China to preach and learn. They don't preach subversive or anti-government ideas but a couple started to be tailed by local police who kept tabs on them. As it generally wasn't in urban areas they were easy to lose.

[@ryane5618]

I just took a history of Christianity class at university and I’m upset that these kind of accounts weren’t presented

[@ryanstephen120]

I wouldn't trust the political bent of any non STEM university class in the West

[@mryonan5865]

Because Assyrian people aren’t in the picture. I’m so sick of tired of explaining this to people. Nestorians are Assyrian people.

[@nolanl3343]

They neglect primary sources, the class definitely gave you a watered down and probably half-true depiction of what actually happened and what early Christians believed and did. Best way to learn is by going to the primary source of the ante-nicene writings.

[@ravissary79]

In what picture? ​@@mryonan5865

[@lonewulf44]

I'm guessing because it might actually hint of positive elements towards Christianity which in most university classrooms is going to be either avoided, twisted, or downplayed.

[@chrunchy-burrito5373]

The Nestorian Stele is my favorite archeological artifact. It is simply fascinating, it contains information about the Church of the East, one of the most interesting Christian sects, and shows the vast geographical distance that Christianity crossed. Christianity is generally seen as a Western religion, one propagated mainly by the colonial empires of the 19th century, which prior to that period it was only popular in Europe. This Stele stands in contrast to that, it’s from the 600s, almost a millennium before the Jesuits arrived, and the missionaries weren’t sent by the Catholic pope or even the Orthodox Patriarch in Constantinople but by the Asian Church of the East, a Christian sect unknown nowadays that has sadly declined over the centuries, but at its height it’s metropolitans and dioceses stretched from China to Alexandria and its Catholicos was even having theological discussions with Sultans. Oh yeah, the Church of the East became so geographically extensive largely during centuries of Islamic rule. Which during the first 6 centuries of was relatively peaceful.

[@sunnyboy4553]

This is fascinating. Can you recommend any books about the Asian Church of the East??? Thank you for your comment.

[@chrunchy-burrito5373]

@@sunnyboy4553 Yes I can! The Lost History of Christianity by Phillip Jenkins was a very comprehensive read. For a book only tangentially related but still focuses on the Church of the East a bit is The Realm of Prester John by Robert Silverberg.

[@painmt651]

Wow!

[@barrydysert2974]

👍🤔🙏

[@jayceebee30]

*sigh* Fuck Timur the Lame

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

"It’s principals will survive when the framework is forgotten" Dude was prophetic.

[@user-vx8mh4iy9c]

I don’t get this quote can someone explain? 🙏🏻

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

@@user-vx8mh4iy9c In other words, when the religion is dying/dead, it's values and doctrines will persist through the culture, even if there are no practitioners. Most things you know as "moral" (if you are a Westerner) stem from Christian doctrine, even if you are an atheist/agnostic.

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

@Mullerornis You assume too much, I'm not Christian. And yes, of course many Western morals and legal concepts have their origins and Greece and Rome, as do they in places in Europe, but outside those regions (i.e. the Germans and such), but you have to be delusional to deny that the relatively unified code Europe had by the time the world was being explored came from the adoption of Christianity and practicing it's doctrine. The moral code you have seen from the past many centuries was not the same moral code the Romans, or Germans, or Celts, etc. used ~2000 years ago. For _better or worse_ Christianity shaped European moral code, and to suggest it had no impact is delusional. Or are you one of those people who just hates Christcuckery and tries everything in their power to diminish the role it's played?

[@SeraphimGoose]

Except that those words were incorrect.

[@dodec8449]

​@@DrewPicklesTheDark I'm pretty sure Romans/Greeks/Celts and cultures outside of Europe had laws against stealing or murdering. Or do you have more examples of morals the Christians 'invented'? Sure, stories like 'The Good Samaritan' amplified feelings of compassion, but it's not unique to Christians to feel empathy.

[@HerculesMays]

This is so fascinating, honestly. Some people may sigh with minor disappointment at how the Chinese got a few things wrong about Christianity, but it's truly far more accurate than I would have imagined considering the great distance, both culturally and geographically, that China was from Israel. It really does make one wonder just how much history of the church in China is lost and will never be known when we only know all this from ONE inscription.

[@FitzPenn]

That's the sad thing with history, when it is lost I can never be found.

[@Scatmanseth]

You never know. For all we know there may be hidden sects of Christianity unknown to us in some backwoods villages in China. It’s not that far fetched, Japan had a few. They even kept the sacraments of baptism and confirmation alive IIRC.

[@danielwmwolf]

They finaly came to their senses and gave up on this whole BS. Good for them.

[@johnrockwell5834]

The Guangzhou massacre by Huang Chao wiped out most Nestorian Christians in China.

[@wombatburrito5896]

Qwppww

[@msb8792]

In case anyone is wondering; the non-Chinese script and language written on the stele and the transcripts is Syriac-Aramaic, written using the classical Estrangela Syriac script (one of 3 used Syriac-Aramaic scripts)… Syriac-Aramaic is still spoken to this day among Syriac Christians in the Middle East and their subdivisions; Syriacs (Arameans), Assyrians, Chaldeans, and Maronites. There are currently 3 mainly surviving forms of the language; 1. Classical Syriac-Aramaic (kthobonoyo), 2. west-Syriac-Aramaic dialect (Turoyo) [Syria, south-west Turkey, Lebanon, Palestine], 3. east-Syriac-Aramaic dialect (Sureth / madinkhaya) [Iraq, Iran, south-east Turkey]…

[@mryonan5865]

They’re all ethnic Assyrian. Those other that you mentioned is within a difference church denomination within the Assyrian community.

[@philregaz599]

@@mryonan5865 Nope. Not even a bit. That's just modern nationalistic assyrian claim.

[@evanssamuelbiju4315]

Christians in Kerala as well

[@guhhhh8588]

Classical Chinese art is quite comfy.

[@jswets5007]

It has always fascinated me

[@lyrisio]

While medieval art is... interesting I liked to play with snails as a child

[@copperlemon1]

@@lyrisio I think both can have a similar effect on the viewer; particularly in instilling a sense of mortality and transience. Western Medieval art tends to be much more explicit though.

[@lyrisio]

@@copperlemon1 tbh I don't know what's the meaning behind the big snail

[@copperlemon1]

@@lyrisio Yeah, that stuff is a real headscratcher.

[@ParagonPKC]

VERY fascinating to me that at the event of Christ's birth, the Chinese reconstruction is correct. The wise men were from the area that constitutes Persia at the time, currently Iran. The Bible also never mentions just 3 wise men, only 3 gifts. For the Chinese to record that there were 24 and more accurately narrate the tradition based on Syrian telling better than how we interpret it today is astounding.

[@SamGarcia]

Well, it said that Christ was born in Syria, soooooooo... that's a glaring mistake.

[@ikengaspirit3063]

@@SamGarcia Don't think of Syria as the modern country but as a region. Syria as a region encompasses the Northern levant and greater Syria the southern as well.

[@ParagonPKC]

@@SamGarcia Syrian and Canaanite history were one and the same for many centuries.

[@copperlemon1]

@@SamGarcia Judaea would be renamed "Syria Palaestina" in the second century following the Bar Kokhba revolt. Some today would claim that Palestine is part of Greater Syria.

[@je-freenorman7787]

There was no man named Jesus The wise men were mentioned as Magi, Where the word Magic comes from. Christianity comes from the Levant and is Semitic Persians were predominantly Aryans

[@pola5392]

As a Christian this struck me very deeply, these men crossed into the unknown where they could easily lose their lives for the sake of telling others the good news...where do we see such faith now? we must be humble and seek to re-establish God at the centre of our lives at all times so His goodness and redemption will shine in our hearts for the world to see and believe. The peace and belonging God manifests in the hearts of those who truly believe is undeniable. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

[@ian_b]

It must have been both frightening and exciting to travel to such unknown and exotic lands back then. The world is very small by comparison now. There are no unknown horizons.

[@petertong572]

The silk road was pretty safe.

[@nakedsushi2009]

With purity of intention they had no real danger as our Lord and Savior no doubt was there preparing the way. In truth you probably aren’t much different. If you moved to another nation of a different language and wanted to teach the Gospel, you would. So you have what is needed to do your part regardless of the size of its scale.

[@Maynard-il1yj]

@@nakedsushi2009first the send the holy men… then comes the government to control

[@alexandria1663]

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. On my best day I have never done anything approaching what these Nestorians did.

[@kevinwahl5610]

The Nestorian Monks from Syria were Assyrians. Their Church, the Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE) still exist to this day

[@kevinwahl5610]

This script is in Aramaic, the script of the language Jesus spoke

[@sunnyboy4553]

@@kevinwahl5610 Wow.

[@sarasho6098]

@@sunnyboy4553 we mostly live in diaspora in the west but many are perserving the language and traditions.

[@melissalisaandrean6803]

@@kevinwahl5610 actually Jesus aramaic was Galilean Aramaic. Written in jewish alphabets. Also an extict dialect of aramaic. Different from classical or modern aramic dialects.

[@kevinwahl5610]

@@melissalisaandrean6803 k

[@drmg735]

I’m a Syriac Christian and I can read parts of the Syriac script presented ( probably not understand it because of the dialect differences ). There’s a Syriac presence in a lot of churches including the Celtic orthodox, Indian orthodox, Maronite Catholics, and in this context Chinese Christian’s.

[@mannypardo1080]

Love this description. It sounds impossibly epic.

[@facelessmonk6640]

Ancient chinese literature is always so grand in nature. I love it

[@zhouwu]

You should learn classical Chinese. You'll love it. Classical Chinese literature either sounds epic... Or it gets forgotten... Literally... (Ha!) Because emperors commission literati to compose anthologies (like an ancient Chinese "curriculum") against which all aspiring Imperial Employees are to be graded for their familiarity and their application of this highly poetic tongue. The result was that the Chinese bureaucracy was filled to the brim with highly eloquent, but not necessarily very practical men. Just imagine if all government ministers were academics. The results might not be ideal, actually. Plato's theory that a utopia can be created the day philosophers become kings and kings become philosophers kinda break down with Communist history. It's still a very interesting rabbit hole to explore. But it's a bit of a hellish rabbit hole to be stuck down. The Queen in "Through the Looking Glass", for example, wasn't necessarily the most beneficial ruler for her Kingdom (Queendom?), in spite of her wide ranging knowledge and profuse use of language. The other issue is that the poetic licence Chinese in high positions employ can make comprehension difficult. This can make them hard to work with. It can also make them unapproachable if your language skills is not up to scratch, which, let's face it, in an agrarian society like China, would be pretty much the majority of the population. To leave so much of the population in the dark about political discourse is... Probably a mistake. Democracy is hard work, but the necessity of engaging with the public means the PR skills of politicians from democratic countries can run circles around the far more crude propaganda of authoritarian regimes. But I digress...

[@fuferito]

About six hundred years later, some of Gengis Khan's conquering generals who were part of his inner circle were Nestorian Christian.

[@TheSonOfDumb]

Hulagu Khan and Batu Khan would wage crusades and jihads against each other after the fall of the Mongol Empire. Quite sad.

[@onlygknows7793]

Nothiing like Christianity pairing up with the butcher of humanity , Jesus would have wanted it that way. .

[@galoobigboi]

@@onlygknows7793 Seethe.

[@Borderose]

Kublai's mother was a Nestorian Christian.

[@WilliamGMalek]

And many of their physicians, and wives were Chinese Nestorians too.

[@TheSaneHatter]

The Chinese-style breakdown of Christianity and its workings is so eloquent that, even as I watched, I was trying in my mind to compose my own, more elaborate exposition in the same tone.

[@pascalbaryamo4568]

It’s not only about the wording, Confucianism is such a calming and humane principle that is too often overlooked

[@joshg8053]

It's probably because Chinese is a language of stringing ideas shaped in the form of characters.

[@mistressofstones]

Pascal Baryamo oppression of women as a class isn't so humane, but the rest is good. Everyone was doing the enslaving women thing after the Bronze Age though.

[@pascalbaryamo4568]

@@mistressofstones right, I guess men didn’t think about that at all back then. But the idea itself can be adjusted

[@laosi4278]

@@joshg8053 yes u right, it's up to the creativity of the translator to make the sentence appear so eloquently, I was studying Japanese and need to translate one long sentence full of kanji without even single one kana letter, I need to even add some new words to make the translated sentence making sense

[@tecumsehcristero]

The Nestorians still exist as The Assyrian Church of the East

[@TeeComedian]

Aren't they also found among the: Chaldean, Maronite, and Syro-Malabar; traditions? I think they have a Qurbana rubric that they claim he wrote.

[@theokra]

@@TeeComedian Nestorian theology and christology is pretty much only found in the Assyrian Church of the East. From the churches you mention, Maronites are Catholics, the Chaldean Catholic Church split from the Assyrian Church to join the Catholics, and the Syro-Malabar tradition is also Catholic. All of these use Syriac liturgy though.

[@TeeComedian]

@@theokra wait so do the East Syriac Catholics both: reject his arguments, and condem him as a heretic; but still use his Qurbana rubric? (I've seen a Mar Nestorius Qurbana section in a service guide book before and have wondered since) Any thoughts on the claim that he was misunderstood?

[@theokra]

@@TeeComedian Sorry I've never heard of the Qurbana rubric, and I can't find much from a quick google search. However I can say that the Oriental Catholics (Maronites, Chaldeans, Syro-Malabari, etc) do condemn the teachings of Nestorius as they have to adhere to Catholic doctrine. Pretty much the only thing they have in common with the Nestorian Assyrian Church of the East is the use of Syriac and the Peshitta (Syriac version of the Bible)

[@TeeComedian]

@@theokra understood, thank you for what you've given me. This is something I'll look into a little deeper.

[@khust2993]

Part of Nestorian Church reestablished communion with Rome in 1500s, it's now known as Chaldean Catholic Church, one of the Eastern Catholic Churches. The main Nestorian Church though, is now known as Assyrian Church of the East.

[@folofus4815]

As I understand it, both those churches, while descended from the Nestorian Church of the East, to Nestorius, condemn Nestorianism and would scoff at being called Nestorian

[@goodday2760]

@@folofus4815 No. There was no Nestorianism to condemn as this church existed and showed distinctness before Nestorius and merely sided with him. The non-Roman Catholic group recognizes Nestorius as a father. The Roman Catholics replaced his name in places and removed other things, thought correctly or incorrectly to have been taught by him, which is Nestorianism. But since the church predates Nestorius, they still have much in common.

[@ikengaspirit3063]

@@folofus4815 The Church was never Nestorian in theology, it is just called nestorian because that is where the Nestorian a famous heretic ran to. It was always the Church of the East.

[@suzannehartmann946]

It is very sad they accepted communion with the idolaters of Rome.

[@goodday2760]

@@ikengaspirit3063 He didn't run to the Church of the East. He resigned himself to exile.

[@beauvaisboy]

To understand our future we must know our past. My 10 year old daughter listens to your videos. Your passion shall be passed on. Thank-you 👍

[@TonyTones123]

This reminds me of the book “Christ: The Eternal Dao” Very interesting book if anyone wanted to read

[@SeraphimGoose]

I finally met Abbott Damascene last week.

[@nuzzi6620]

@Read Father Seraphim Rose There have been some delays, they’re looking at sometime in 2022. No exact date given in my email correspondence with the brotherhood

[@user-ek2ms4om7p]

What means Dao? Jesus is the Eternal God and Life.😏✝

[@skymanblank6243]

Dao= "the divine principal through which all things came into existence" So the Bible translators translated "logos" from the Greek into the word "Dao" in John 1 "In the beginning was the Dao and the Dao was with God and the Dao was God."

[@user-ek2ms4om7p]

@@skymanblank6243 🤗 Thank you so much for the info. God the LORD Jesus the CHRIST bless you and your loved ones, Amen.🤝✝

[@nahidbethehonoredone]

This is so amazing! As both a lover of history and cultures and a devout religious Roman Catholic, hearing things like these encounters and crossovers of cultures, faiths, peoples and traditions and the Tang dynasty Chinese warmly accepting our faith is such an awesome and wholesome moment. If only history across the ages and civilizations was something like this.

[@hugoramirez7510]

Messiach in Hebrew, Messias in Latin, Messiah in English all sounds almost alike. So who added christ/ Christianity/ Christian unless you starting a new religion Rome beliefs with bible beliefs you get a new religion Christianity.

[@adamMjarosz]

@@hugoramirez7510 they were first called Christians at Antioch. Christos is Greek for “Anointed One”, therefor Christ. The early Church wrote in Greek in the East.

[@LookUpwards]

Hi there, If you do not mind me sharing, the Sabbath, "..from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." Lev 23:32 (KJV) which is sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, was "sanctified" or "קָדַשׁ" which means to 'set apart for holy use' Gen 2:3 "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it..." (KJV), and thus Adam and Eve kept it holy. Sin is defined as transgressing or breaking any of the 10 commandments as per 1 Jo 3:4 "..sin is the transgression of the law." (KJV). So, when Satan had sinned, he actually broke the 10 commandments for indeed angels also have to keep them in heaven Psa 103:20 "Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments..."(KJV). Infact, the saints, described as those that "..keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:12, KJV), will keep the 10 Commandments when the new heavens and a new earth are created including keeping the Sabbath holy by e.g gathering to worship the LORD as per: Isa 66:22-23 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make...it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." (KJV). Heb 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." (KJV); The word 'rest' is translated from the Greek word 'σαββατισμός' (Sabbatismos) - A Sabbath, Rest. The 7th day Sabbath still stands active today for all GOD'S people to observe. I highly encourage to do a study on this, if in disagreement, so as not to 'end up coming short in the end' (if above the age of accountability) as per: Heb 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (KJV). Exo 20:8 "Remember..." (KJV). Please have a look at this video (GOD'S Law vs Moses' law) kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIavl5ilbt2di5Y Soon Fulfilled Prophecy : 1. Food shortage will lead to a civil war in America. 2. Climate change will lead to Sun-day laws. Helpful websites: 1. www.remnantofGOD.org 2. www.pluckedout.co.uk GOD Bless 💙💙💙

[@fellowchristian7096]

They are the Nestorian who are the Anna Baptism vladwas , waldengons , hugannot , etc. Which your evil Roman Catholic Cult brutally kill through Dark age Inquisition.

[@gerardducharme2146]

The late Christopher Dawson wrote a book Journey to Asia about the Franciscans in the 12th century and were greeted by different groups, making their route to China was written in the 1955 I believe from original documents and a Abi in England I believe is called Stanford Abbey by a sister, fascinating reading, and from what I do recall mind you I read this book 10 years ago. One of the monks came back with them and celebrated a mass in a chapel, I don’t know if it was the Vatican that I don’t recall, but they were Nestorian. I found it quite interesting myself and I am traditional Catholic. God bless. And without these Franciscans, or anyone else, we would not have this information that would’ve disappeared into oblivion.

[@williamwan3712]

It is important to note that although *Syria* is often mentioned in the inscriptions, it is only describing the *origins of the Nestorians* . What we can't ignore is the Chinese characters on the title of this stone tablet"大秦景教流行中國碑"( *A monument to the spread of Roman Christian Nestorianism in Middle Kingdom* ) Because 大秦/ *Da Chin* refers to *Rome* in ancient China.

[@jackwalters5506]

Not really accurate to call them Nestorians, Nestorian isn't synonymous with the Syrian Church. The Nestorians were a group of heretics who believed that the human of Jesus was separate from the spirit of the Logos, which merely inhabited Christ's body. The Nestorians became prominent in Mesopotamia because they were promoted by the Persians so that Christians in their Empire wouldn't have sympathies to the Church in Rome(a case against the Chinese Church being Nestorian can be made from the Monks who founded it claiming to be from Syria, which wasn't Nestorian). The Christians in China seem to have held to the original doctrine of Christ being truly both God and man, and also referred to Mary as the Mother of God, which is something Nestorians didn't do, since they believed Jesus was just a man inhabited by God, and was not himself Divine.

[@je-freenorman7787]

All roads lead to Rome The Roman Empire never fell They converted everyone and today, every government is Roman That is the big Scam They Marginalize people and steal their identity

[@definitelynotobama6851]

@@jackwalters5506 it’s entirely possible that the Chinese flavor of Christianity was simply the best that eastern missionaries could do to adapt the Nestorian theology to the Chinese framework.

[@gsmiro]

Also, for quite a while, they were commonly referred to as the Persian Religion because many of the Nestorian priests were Persians. It took awhile for them to get their correct name Da Chin across to indicate that the origin of their faith came from within the Roman Empire, not Persia.

[@Beautiful2012redbird]

@@jackwalters5506 @Jack Walters I'm sorry I have to disagree with you. I'm assyrian and belong to that church that you're referring to it as Nestorian as this video is doing so... the people of this church do not refer to themselves as nestorians...It's called the church of the east and we believe that jesus is both God and human and is son of God and not just a human inhibited by divine.

[@ysyonan]

Fast forward 1400 years later, Assyrians are still spreading Christianity and still facing genocide and prosecution. Thank you God for giving me the honour of being Assyrian ❤️

[@JAdams-jx5ek]

Very well done. Love the translation and the reading voice.

[@RadCyn]

This was super touching and informative thanks so much.

[@miketacos9034]

It’s so cool to hear these concepts translated in a different way.

[@The-Last-Prime]

''...introducing life and destroying death.'' Chills. 8:59 - 9:02.

[@Thomasfboyle]

5:20 Interesting the Christian refusal of slavery was witnessed by the Han as early as the 7th CE

[@mrpickle9118]

Then in the 15th century, Europeans who believed in Christianity frantically sold slaves from Africa to America

[@Thomasfboyle]

@@mrpickle9118 And then in the 21st century Africa is the most increasingly Christian continent on the planet, go figure

[@0animalproductworld558]

I love the peaceful, educated, in-depth, professional, respectful, good, documentary feeling and atmosphere of this video and its narrator 🐇

[@juststardust8103]

Amazing video as usual. Thanks for posting it.

[@Artur_M.]

Fascinating! The style of this text is definitely something else.

[@je-freenorman7787]

Other than what? What you are used to?

[@esotericulmanist8331]

@@je-freenorman7787 everything is so vulgar and decadent these days

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@esotericulmanist8331 Do vulgar and decadent go together like peas and carrots? Its all religion then. The rulers use religion to steal : A- Your perceptions B- Your identity C- Your authority Religion "IS" the problem

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@esotericulmanist8331 We always ask: Who are we What are we Where are we

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@esotericulmanist8331 I need a Government to take care of some people that are offending me and trying to make me sick

[@pantonal]

This is now one of my favorite KZbin videos. Thank you.

[@je-freenorman7787]

Garbage Its not real

[@pantonal]

@@je-freenorman7787 You’re not real!

[@tedclemens4093]

"He rendered virtue subservient to direct faith." The revolutionary principle of the Gospel so easily forgotten.

[@rosaliesteward2160]

wow, this is amazing, thank you so much for sharing.

[@GamelanSinarSurya]

Another Informative and expertly crafted video with beautiful images and background music. Thank you.

[@VicCrisson]

Amazing, I love how much noble is their presentation

[@LivingInTheKaliYogurt]

This is beautiful. Thank you for posting this piece of religious history. Fills important gaps.

[@stephenanthony5923]

Magnificent presentation! Beautifully crafted.

[@ReanCombrinck]

This is amazing! Thanks for sharing!

[@Fenristhegreat]

Very cool, thanks for the video.

[@je-freenorman7787]

I wish we could learn the truth

[@barrydysert2974]

That was amazing and perhaps the most beautiful thing i have ever heard!:-) Thank you. 🙏🖖

[@je-freenorman7787]

and wrong

[@em.c.827]

Wow! Never heard of this till today. Thanks for sharing :D

[@davestaff1889]

Beautiful text, good choice IMHO, thank you for making video.

[@RandomEevee617]

“It’s principles will survive when the framework is forgotten” Spot on

[@zenondolnyckyj4325]

Classical Chinese just did everything the best, including summaries Christianity. Emperor Taizong also had Mosks built. He welcomed a Buddhist Monk back from India with the Sutras which were translated into Chinese. Taizong saw himself as a descendant of Lao Zi (founder of Taoism.) He is regarded as the greatest Emperor in Chinese history.

[@facelessmonk6640]

I feel like it would be incredibly useful to use a Daoist perspective when creating governmental doctrine even today. The government should only focus on things it needs to: The wellbeing of the nation’s infrastructure, military, political institutions and education. It has no right to get involved with personal livelihood; unless a crime is committed.

[@FeelingShred]

"Classical Chinese just did everything the best..." Listen here, China and chinese people have to stop with this OBSESSION about being "The Best" on everything... it's impossible for anyone to be PERFECT on all areas, it's humanly impossible. I'm learning a lot of new stuff from the Bible and I'm currently studying this relationship between "3 peoples of earth" which are the Shemites, the Hamites and the Jephites (China would be classified as Hamites, the "technically and phisically proficient" of the world, let's put it this way) This new modern obsession with China being "the best" on all fronts is what is going to bring ruin to China, no culture in the world is supposed to be dominating over others like that. So yeah, it's pretty impressive that China did all this, it's one of their many feats, but try stopping with this mentality of competition, it's useless and brings nothing of actual value to the world. Cooperation is a must.

[@dorayantz3649]

Great video. Thank you. 😍🙏

[@klim5943]

This is wonderful. I have never heard of this great rich history before. Many thanks ✨❤️‍🔥🙏🏼

[@joesomebody3365]

Their interpretation is very interesting, a lot of commenters have pointed out the bit about "it's principles will be remembered long after it's framework is forgotten" as the best section, and very predictive too.

[@dannychu2014]

This was so meditative just to listen to.

[@AntiQris]

Thank you you just helped me so much.

[@sethl7078]

This missionary certainly doesn't seem Nestorian in his theology. People often forget that the Church of Syria had a problem with nestorianism, but it wasn't fully Nestorian. St. Isaac the Syrian is an example of a properly Orthodox Syrian of his time. Regarding this stele, the writer states that God became man, and that the Virgin Mary gave birth to God, however, Nestorianism is distinguished because it actually REJECTED these two basic tenets. Nestorius disapproved of calling Mary the "Mother of God" and claimed that the human person, Jesus, was a seperate mortal, human person from The Logos, which merely inhabited him.

[@myaccount4699]

So, Nestorians were heretics?

[@sethl7078]

@@myaccount4699 Yes, they were condemned at the council of Ephesus and then Chalcedon. They then fled to Persia wherein the Persian government patronized the Nestorian heretics within the Persian Church. The goal was political for the Persian government, because when the Persian Church embraced Nestorianism (due to the Persian government) they declared themselves completely independent from the rest of the Church, which supported the Romans: the enemy of Persia. The goal was to ensure that Persian Christians wouldn't be Roman Sympathizers.

[@dominicm255]

Interesting....

[@johnrockwell5834]

The Logos and human nature of Christ isn't separate however. Jesus didn't have 2 different personalities but one personality and one soul. It's God voluntarily limiting his divinity by allowing himself to experience human nature.

[@joshg8053]

Not all Christians of the Church of the East were Nestorian, that's a misnomer. Even the conception of Nestorius being heretical might be a misnomer as well.

[@ReynaSingh]

These videos are great. Keep it up

[@samurai8698]

Always fun coming across you in the comments, Reyna! 👋 You should do a cross-over 😎

[@JoshFortune-nb8wz]

Beautiful video.

[@FDCLDN]

Thanks for this.

[@RichyArg]

early and middle christian spread is fascinating, especially some the eastern branches, it's interesting to see how their approach to evangelisation difered from most western branches due to mostly lacking the sponsorship of a large and powerful state, nestorian missionaries especially, they put in quite the ammount of legwork

[@thamill3826]

As a Catholic this is a beautiful description of Christianity

[@kaarlimakela3413]

So amazingly described, I scarcely recognize it!!!

[@timothymatthews6458]

Yes, T Hamil, but they didn't believe what your evil, disgusting religion preaches. Thank god! I can't wait until the pope and the Vatican are destroyed.

[@thamill3826]

@@timothymatthews6458 I will pray for you

[@wes00chin]

@@timothymatthews6458 Thank God I don't believe what you preach either

[@letsomethingshine]

@@timothymatthews6458 Are you talking about the child-rapes and native-massacres and cover-ups committed by Catholic Churches taking money from various Colonial States and following Paul's cultic advice about keeping secretes to paint your religious associations in a better light to the often more unaware outsiders? Or some neofundamentalist King James of England bibliolatry garbage?

[@mercywalschek2695]

This is absolutely fascinating.

[@baboon_bandito]

Beautiful! Thank you.

[@daphneraven6745]

That may have been the single most Beautiful recounting of the creation story that I ever heard.

[@assyrianchristian764]

as Assyria Christian of the same church, loved the video about the less know history of Christianity in china

[@searchndestroy6263]

Incredible. You are a great narrator

[@creativejOOey]

Thanks!

[@fishussugon3215]

It's actually pretty nice how being so far prior to globalisation that civilisations would be open to ideas from faraway lands

[@chrishenniker5944]

Christianity was the first globalisation.

[@billdecompsa4705]

I feel like globalization makes us more isolated.

[@cmk5724]

Absolutely beautiful.

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

Fantastic!

[@evilapple3427]

Why does the Ancient Chinese translation of the Bible sound so epic lol

[@letsomethingshine]

A lot of Chinese writing was thought to not be worth the time if it did not give a vibe of being grandiose and poetic... especially religious writing. However, even anti-religious writing can be painted in this way. And this especially occurred when religions were attacking each other.

[@CannibaLouiST]

Classical Chinese translation of the Bible is actually a thing. In 19th/early-20th century, there are classical Chinese versions of the Bible, and I think they are superior to the modern mandarin version. There are also translations that are Cantonese, Hokkien and more.

[@gasun1274]

@@HAYAOLEONE it was meant to be that way. if the english version was translated to reflect the simplicity of chinese grammar classical chinese would sound like baby babble. anything in classical chinese was written to be beautiful as intended by the authors. the translators have the responsibility to bring that beauty over.

[@jackp492]

definitely touched the heart of whoever wrote that excerpt

[@je-freenorman7787]

Its all God Spells

[@tabryis]

I really really like this channel

[@shadowsnake94]

they must have been really good missionaires back then because the emperor seemed really impressed right away

[@voidremoved]

Some of the wise men came from China

[@BZY-bu9wr]

Many Chinese emperors are very entertained by novelties such as foreign religions. Later emperors were also fascinated by Islam.

[@user-cu3tp6kf7m]

You don't know Chinese people, allowing missionary work does not mean you have converted to Christianity. The state religion of the Tang Dynasty was Taoism. Although many people embraced Buddhism, in China, the emperor always had more power than religion. For example, the CPC now controls Tibetan Buddhism. This is a Chinese tradition. The Qing Dynasty emperor used Tibetan Buddhism to control Mongolia and Tibet.

[@billdecompsa4705]

​@@user-cu3tp6kf7mI don't think he said they had converted. Just that they were impressed.

[@Gotz_the_iron_hand]

Preserving this history, all history, and not letting it be colored by modern beliefs and preconceptions is incredibly important work. How many people who watched this, for example, would know without this, that China had a deep connection to early Christianity? Mostly, you think of Buddhism, when thinking of ancient China, right? I know I did, at least. Not exactly a scholar of Chinese history am I, though. I only became interested in Chinese history and culture a few years ago and really enjoy learning about it. I love history in general, though. There's just not enough time in the day to study it. Point is, thanks for simply letting the voices of history itself, speak for themselves once again in this form.

[@zaggers77]

Jesus loves you.

[@AdrienneJung.M]

I agree. I have a history degree and I am often dissappinted in modern historical works. The authors rarely present the historical texts in a straightforward way. Modern historians are taught to quilt together fragments of history in order to construct whatever narrative, thesis, or hot take they are interested in. But this channel offers no commentary, they simply let these documents speak for themselves.

[@danblan8700]

This is amazing

[@hugofernandez9321]

I never knew this… good stuff 😊

[@honey3762]

“It’s principles will survive when the framework is forgotten” That’s a very thoughtful sentiment

[@matthewboyle2641]

I wonder if they had any idea that Syria was in the midst of being conquered by the first caliphate. The Tang would fight the Abbasids about over a 100 years later.

[@giacomosimonin212]

And that event blocked Tang dinasty expansion westward and entrusted much of central Asia to the Abbasids!

[@peterwang5660]

@@giacomosimonin212 yeahp, the deserts were too much

[@BZY-bu9wr]

They actually fought the Umayyads once as well.

[@fianorian-ce2qr]

@@giacomosimonin212 The war had little impact. After that, several local wars were won in Central Asia, mainly because of the an Shi rebellion, which seriously affected the national order and population

[@pamelaschutz1248]

Its principles will survive when the framework is forgotten! How true! How utterly beautiful!

[@ArtificialVik]

this is fascinating

[@arspsychologia4401]

This is very interesting, especially since the use of sacrifices mentioned right next to the use of the cross as a symbol seems to indicate it as a symbol in use by pre-Passion Christians, showing it has even deeper meaning than just being a symbol of Christ's sacrifice.

[@wochee]

Actually, the first Nestorian church in China was not in Chang'An, but in Lou Guan Tai, which is about 70km to the west. I have journeyed there and visited the Church, which is in a pagoda facing east, with a relief recumbent nativity on the first level. It has since been taken over by the Buddhists.

[@seronymus]

What did it look like!

[@kalaitindubokenneth1739]

Cool. Nice one. 👍👍👍👍👍

[@lonewulf44]

Very cool, I had never heard these translations and accounts before. As someone with interest in lost books, and specifically a lot of the early church documents, it's things like this that made me wonder that somewhere someday and say outer regions of China there will be some kind of lost manuscript of the patristic writers found. Like The Lost early works of Papaias ... That would be amazing

[@peterwindhorst5775]

The "three constant principles" may perhaps mean faith, hope, and charity.

[@robdee81]

More likely a reference to father , son and the holy spirit. Faith hope and charity sounds more modern although i may be wrong.

[@robdee81]

@Lucas De Araújo Marques you have to remember the Chinese Nestorians seem to of misunderstood alot about the religion, it wasnt Catholic. I stand by it more likely being a reference to Father , Son and Holy spirit. Then again i may be wrong.

[@aspektx]

@@robdee81 Faith, hope, and love are mentioned in that order as the three "things that remain" in 1 Corinthians 13. The chapter is often quoted at weddings. That may be why it sounds modern to you.

[@joshuafischer684]

@@aspektx The Catholic Church and I believe some other translations used by the Orthodox Church read that verse as "Faith, hope, and charity." Replacing "charity" with "love" is in translations used predominantly by American Protestants.

[@colerobbins124]

1 Corinthians 13:13?

[@cmcsccw]

The Faith Of Our Fathers by Chan Kei Thong is a fascinating read on this subject ...

[@sunnyboy4553]

Thank you, I'll look it up. I recommended above Devotional Classics edited by Richard J Foster and James Bryan Smoth.

[@je-freenorman7787]

Religion is a curse to humans

[@ronaldagnes2269]

Wow... impresive!

[@davidmccann9811]

Excellent.

[@aaronbarreguin.4211]

Praise Jesus!

[@je-freenorman7787]

Jesus was not real Christianity is Satanic

[@nichy7734]

@@je-freenorman7787 the irony of you calling Christianity Satanic

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@nichy7734 There is no Irony Unless you consider that Iron is highly magnetic. lol Satan is the Father of religion. Some call it the deceiver. El, Allah and Jehovah are names for the God of Many Names, who is Satan Nobody ever even checks if it's their god and it is.

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@nichy7734 I am bound to the Truth and I always let go of beliefs Believers are the target of the religious Satanic Magic in the Bible

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@nichy7734 The word Satanic means Diabolical and Evil. In English. In spanish, Diabolo means the Devil

[@QuanLiPR]

the title inscribed on the stele say 大秦, which is what ancient China called Rome (from Republic to Byzantine)

[@thefisherking78]

Very interesting

[@FaithFullPodcast]

Solid description of the Liturgy of the Hours 😇🙏

[@Dionaea_floridensis]

I first heard "Olopun" as "Olive One" which is amusing given the general complexion of those from the Eastern Mediterranean

[@darkservantofheaven]

That's a beautiful description

[@Memememe-is1yn]

"He rendered virtue subservient to direct faith."

[@xxxs8309]

Fascinating

[@cayteowands]

Magnificent.

[@zhubajie6940]

Saw the stele in 碑林 Bēi​lín​, Forest of Steles museum in Xi'an.