Roman Complains About Weird New "Christians" and "Jesus" Son of Panthera (177 AD) True Word, Celsus

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Extracts taken from:
Celsus, as quote by Origen:
www.earlychristianwritings.com...
Music from Epidemic Sound and Artlist
Stock footage from Videoblocks and Artgrid
Image Credits:
Jupiter Biser Todorov, CC BY 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Lector Priest By Djehouty - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Qumran Scroll By Shai Halevi on behalf of the Israel Antiquities Authority - Enlargement of image at Wikimedia-Commonsupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..., CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Sol By I, Sailko, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Plato By Zde - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index... Feast By User:MatthiasKabel - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Apollo By Livioandronico2013 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Roman mosaic By Jerzystrzelecki - Own work, CC BY 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Mosaic Virgil By Giorces - Self-photographed, CC BY 2.5, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...

[@VampireNewl]

"yeah well my gods could totally beat up your gods" - Most Roman thing ever

[@sneeringimperialist6667]

They had an actual ritual where they destroyed the gods of a city before they conquered it. Even if you didn't believe in that, it had to be fairly demoralizing for the defenders...

[@S-North]

And the irony being eventually the Christian god prevailed, as the Roman Empire adopted Christianity.

[@sparXKuijper]

@@S-North Not adopted , so much as Mandated .

[@risingson7773]

@@S-North It uses Christianity, though not for much longer. All that Christianity is and has been, is provably worship of the Sun. The one you call jesus is Horus. Christians are daft, through and through, from the start to this day.

[@PeriodDrama]

@@S-North And now thank fuck Christianity is on the decline (in all developed nations with a robust education system).

[@johnmarshall3007]

The way you are able to capture the emotions of a writer who's been dead for centuries with your inflection is really remarkable. Another brilliant production.

[@TheLionFarm]

Ay. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6uXaqCYebuqg5Y

[@cdogthehedgehog6923]

Blah blah blah

[@rekt_yer_nan_darding_5788]

I feel like If this writer was brought to the real world he'd be a mod on r/atheism

[@cdogthehedgehog6923]

@@rekt_yer_nan_darding_5788 I mean, if you had almost nothing to compare Christianity to, it does sound incredibly stupid. I mean, it sounds incredibly stupid anyways, but imagine if you had no reference to these weird smelly hippie cultists wander into your city. I'd be weirded out even more than I already am by Christians.

[@KibyNykraft]

Yeshua ben-Pantera died in 31 AD as executed by queen Helena

[@AnythingMachine]

So the Romans basically were just like "Yeah he was probably just a perfectly ordinary sorcerer with delusions of grandeur"

[@White_Oak_]

I mean, true.

[@tylerdurden3722]

Egyptians were famous for "magic" tricks, which were understood by more educated Romans to be just tricks. Some of their tricks were athletic, example juggling. Hence why Celsius called them "jugglers" and not sorcerers.

[@mavrospanayiotis]

When superstition is so advanced to be skepticism.

[@bluesdealer]

@@tylerdurden3722 I must have missed the Egyptian magic trick of raising the dead and walking on water. Maybe it was after the juggling routine 🙃

[@nathanielj.boston352]

​@@bluesdealerthose tricks are still done today. word is spread by mouth and many believe it to be true. what's the difference.

[@samthecan3116]

When they call Jesus a "demon" they are probably referring to him as a demos which is just a Greek name for a supernatural being and doesn't have a negative connotation

[@Alusnovalotus]

Daemon.

[@FeelMetalMan]

Daemon is just a voice in your head, I don't think they are not calling him demon

[@user-ol7bt4wp1j]

@@FeelMetalMan They probably called him a daemon Daemon is the word from which demon comes from, demon is just a version of that word with negative connotations.

[@christopher9196]

Lol

[@LibertyandJustice76]

Or the fact they knew it was a Jewish invention to control the gentiles and make them worship Jews…

[@jmchez]

The casual mention of his belief that Egyptians could perform miracles shows that elites from rich countries have been looking at even more ancient cultures as sources of mysterious knowledge or enlightenment for thousands of years before us.

[@abdelra7man87]

As a matter of fact lots of Egyptian still nowadays believe in sorts of magic and expelling demons from the body. Just amazing how such beliefs can transcend generations, religions and cultures.

[@will_of_europa]

Exactly. You should look into the thunderbolts project, specifically the polar configuration and Dave Talbotts work

[@voidremoved]

shows that evil sinners are desperate to try to undermine and belittle Jesus. I mean, I already believed there was magicians in Egypts, but Aarons staff ate theirs God can turn egyptian staff in to a lizard but he can feed that lizard to Aarons lizard, because he is God and can do it.

[@chriselliott4621]

The Bible itself says during the Seven Plagues; their God (Yahweh) sent plagues on Egypt, though the Egyptian Priests were able to mimic the same "Magic/Power" that Yahweh sent forth. Everyone in ancient times believed the Egyptian Priests had powers beyond normal man. Of course Giza Plateau just reinforced the imagination of foreigners.

[@drxym]

Sadly, stupidity and credulity are not modern inventions. Just like there are idiots today who believe in "traditional" medicine, doubtless there were those millennia ago partaking of their own uncritical acceptance of something unsupported even by evidence of their own time.

[@007kingifrit]

"the most notorious of persons, tax gatherers.....and FISHERMEN!"

[@vincenzorutigliano5435]

Jesus be like: That was the whole point!!!

[@Fummy007]

Funfact: No one liked fishermen because it was seen as a dirty and mundane job. Fishermen were all illiterate and had no education, like the apostles.

[@araincs]

Imagine the smell of a fisherman in an age before soap, in the hot mediterranian sun no less.

[@mike-0451]

You have to understand how ancient men and women are different from us today. You, even if you deny Christ and curse his name, are a descendent of a group of radicals that believed all life was precious and valuable. It cannot be understated how irrational and impractical this actually is. To ancient peoples, the idea that a slave was just as human as his master was completely unthinkable.

[@twilightknight2333]

1 Corinthians 1:27 (KJV) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty

[@masdavis236]

"It's no big deal jesus we have all seen Egyptian magic before" 😂

[@theunholyone2505]

​@@user-jw6ty4gd7q Jesus didn't changed anything. It was Paul who did it and even claimed of an apparition from Jesus.

[@mbc-92]

@@user-jw6ty4gd7qwait.. so what you’re saying, publicly, is that Jesus was one of The Founding Fathers?

[@ninab.4540]

​@@theunholyone2505Paul and his disciplines ruined Christianity. He wasn't even an apostle

[@christopher9196]

@@ninab.4540 he started Christianity

[@deniseb4426]

@@ninab.4540 At least Paul had positive things to add. What do you have to add after 2000 years of collective knowledge and even the internet? Be more humble.

[@TheNightWatcher1385]

I love how one of his main arguments basically boils down to poor people being gross and so they wouldn’t or shouldn’t be favored by a deity.

[@lacanian_lifter]

They are gross tho

[@mountainjay]

It's because this video is propaganda. It's not some Roman it was a professional Roman acting in bad faith and biased, specifically hired by the state to attack Christianity for political reasons.

[@bappagone299]

unless im mistaken i heard him say that statements jesus himself is supposed to have said came from plato.... you, aswell as almost everyone in these comments is dissmissing 99.9 % of what he actually said, but for what??? he made reasonable arguments, but all you heard was "people are poor"?

[@bappagone299]

that wasn't anywhere near one of his main arguments

[@TheNightWatcher1385]

@@bappagone299 He uses the low ranking birth of Jesus, Mary, and his disciples as evidence against Christianity’s legitimacy.

[@Joe-po9xn]

I love it how you can almost hear the eye roll at Jesus learning miracles in Egypt, then returning to Israel and proclaiming He's God. Like everyone could do that back then, and it was just another Tuesday.

[@loneskankster2242]

There have always been Magicians and Snake Oil salesmen. Some of them just claim to be god.

[@loneskankster2242]

@علي ياسر Magicians are just illusionists. Magic doesn't exist in this world, and some men are worse than demons.

[@EnragedTurkey]

@علي ياسر Nah man, it's just illusion

[@valentinexavier9278]

Jesus definitely wasn't the only one to attempt it. He was just the most successful. Every era has scores of people that try to do the same thing with varying degrees of success. For every Joseph Smith there's ten David Koreshes.

[@thealmightyaku-4153]

Miracle workers were a dime-a-dozen back in those days: Simon the Magician, who supposedly lost a miracle contest to the Apostle Peter in Rome; Honi HaMe'agel, who supposedly stood in a circle and said he would not step out unless God made it rain - whence upon it rained; or Appolonius of Tyana, a 'Pythagorean Jesus', who performed miracles, traveled to India, and gathered a following, who even Christians did not deny worked wonders - but supposedly did so by being in league with demons.

[@jarekstorm6331]

Rome, 177 AD - Who are these silly Christians? Rome, 380 AD - Christianity is our official religion.

[@ryanprosper88]

Rome: who are these Christians Also Rome: we are

[@Roma-rusk]

Powerful way to control the masses. They loved it. Then made themselves saints to become immortal as "gods"

[@billykotsos4642]

Yh its like asking the homeless broke guy how he needed up where he is. “At first very slowly and then extremely fast ”

[@user-rv4wn5qk7q]

Rome, 2022 AD - Christianity is still our official religion and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[@strictlylethal]

Goes to show a lot can change in 200 years

[@m.adampriest7719]

The Roman’s were the definition of confidence and arrogance all at once. I always get a chuckle out of how their “diplomats” practiced diplomacy. There’s a well known story of one diplomat drawing a circle around a foreign king with his staff. and telling him to have a decision made by the time he steps out of the circle. 😂

[@Zodroo_Tint]

I like when Crassus lost to the Parthians who were a horse riding nation therefore they looked at non horse riding people as servants therefore all of their major treaty has to be made on both side sitting on horsback he came to the talks on foot because his back hurt or something like that. Like: _I don care I'm a Roman I gonna walk my back hurt dammit lol_ And the Parthians took it as an offense because it was like a servant come to talk about peace with a winning general. I like how even when he lost a war and was beaten very badly he was still arrogant enough to try to act like Rome is the ruler of the world.

[@marcospatricio8283]

​@@Zodroo_Tintto be fair, we also know that he was very shocked by the death of his son by the time, and wasn't holding it very well. Might be less "to hell with them!" and more "my soldiers poked me with sticks until I came here and they didn't poke me at a horse before".

[@marcospatricio8283]

Can I get a source for that, mate? I'd like to read more about it.

[@IncitatusConsul]

I believe the story is on Gaeus Popillius Laenas and king Antiochus IV Theos Epiphanes

[@The1Senate]

Reminds me of my country

[@dumbfatguy1911]

It’s interesting how the Roman writing has some of the same criticisms of Jesus as the Pharisees did, like when he calls out how Jesus kept “bad company” like tax collectors and fishermen.

[@kerwinramage4162]

I also find it interesting how condescending he is and things he is all smart yet comepletely misses the point if loads of things in Christianity which if he was as smart as he thinks he is would be extremely obvious to him but are not.

[@Zodroo_Tint]

I understand a tax collector is a bad company but why the fishermens?

[@rimfire8217]

"it is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick"

[@bubblegumgun3292]

Truely an ancap moment

[@williamjenkins4913]

@@Zodroo_Tint They are low born therefore obviously morally bad.

[@xerex21212]

This actually a pretty good example of how the Romans expected Gods to act like Gods. Powerful . Tireless. Awe inspiring. Its also interesting that he is ecumenical in his way, regarding all the polytheists as worshiping the same gods regardless of their name.

[@Nobody32990]

More of a perennialist then ecumenical but close. Keep in mind that was one of the many interpretations of the God's nature prevalent at the time.

[@MPHJackson7]

Many pagans believed foreign gods were their own. It's called interpretatio graeca.

[@PlateArmorUnderwear]

He sounds like a New Atheist. Where is the Roman Empire now?

[@Nobody32990]

@@PlateArmorUnderwear everywhere in western (and parts of the eastern) world, look no further then two largest Christian denominations itself, Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

[@youtubecommenter2]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the Romans (when fighting wars in the Britain) also thought that the gods of the Brittons were just as real as their own gods, and they were very afraid of angering them.

[@robertjack4329]

"Jesus having gathered around him... the very wickedest of tax gatherers and fishermen..." this made me laugh.

[@itsmannertime]

Lot of people don't know Andrew was the origin of the happy fisherman t-shirt, shameful past

[@hicknopunk]

@@itsmannertime happy fisherman shirt? Never heard of nor seen one.

[@itsmannertime]

It's the cartoon of some fisherman getting sucked off by a trout while wading, just walk into any weird run down fishing supply place and you'll see it

[@cjclark2002]

@@itsmannertime humanity hasn’t changed one bit, of course I expect nothing less.

[@MichiMind]

Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word

[@raggedyman2257]

We have these transcripts from Celsus due to the work of Origen, a Christian interested in refuting the peculiarities of pagan perspectives. Wonderful to read as an account from without and within the burgeoning faith.

[@Hoi4o]

Origen was himself denounced as a heretic by the Christian Church though, which means he wasn't really a Christian, but more of a philosopher with Christian influences in his ideas.

[@raggedyman2257]

@@Hoi4o Indeed not, as his attempt to reconcile Platonic thought with Christian faith were erroneous and, retroactively, that aspect was denounced to prevent dissemination of (specific) heretical teaching. Heresy is not damnation, but a proscription against erroneous teaching. Origen was very much a Christian. Please be more judicious in your assumptions and loose use of terms ill used by pop-culture. I do encourage you to read Origen or the early Fathers. Or better to begin with Matthew and proceed from there. All will enrich you throughout your life. God bless.

[@ayan5416]

​@@raggedyman2257Funny since Augustine has a lot of Plato in his ideas

[@raggedyman2257]

Do not stop there, most Church fathers were/are deeply versed in Platonic or Aristotlian philosophy. I say, "not funny,," because they loved and appreciated the intellectual pursuit as God gave Man reason and the innate desire to seek knowledge and understanding. A difference, however, is most did not seek to bend their thoughts into definitively Christian philosophy. Consider Thomas Aquinas and his reinvigoration of Aristotle throughout Europe. He loved Aristotle not for his errors, but for his reasoning. But then KZbin comments are probably best suited for those unread and snarky souls. Good luck with your pursuits.

[@ayan5416]

@@raggedyman2257 My problem is not with ideas coming from diferents sources apart from the Bible. I love Kierkergard and Jung and many others the problem is when you try to inject them into theology and create an amalgamation of the truth

[@sleepyguy4237]

"I'm not gonna argue, debate or question christians because I already know all about then" Yup, that roman got that reddit energy.

[@podomuss]

It’s been 2,000 years and Christians still haven’t been able to say anything of value, so can you blame them?

[@CampingforCool41]

This is so incredibly interesting. I’ve never heard a direct account on early Christianity from an outside perspective before. Would love to hear more like this

[@Gorboduc]

Check out the book The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, by Robert Wilken. It includes our friend Celsus here, plus Pliny, Porphyry, and the emperor Julian, all with historical context.

[@universalis8208]

There's a pretty good amount of them as historical records go, people just don't like to acknowledge them.

[@CampingforCool41]

@@Gorboduc Thank you, I'll check it out

[@CampingforCool41]

@@universalis8208 I wonder why not....heh

[@Joleyn-Joy]

It's not really direct. It's a Christian author quoting another person.

[@gabrielabrahao4383]

I like the "how could there be days before the sun even existed?" question

[@FFXI_Addict]

Sol doesn't create time. ;x

[@ProfessorShnacktime]

Computer brain moment

[@gabrielabrahao4383]

@@ProfessorShnacktime I meant it's a funny thing to think about and not that it's a good argument against christianity.

[@ProfessorShnacktime]

@@gabrielabrahao4383 It is a quippy little point lol. My apologies for being rude.

[@gabrielabrahao4383]

@@ProfessorShnacktime no worries, buddy :D

[@alexbrown2286]

These are really beautifully made! Thank you - nice mic quality and very consistent, solid voiceover. Noice😎👍

[@hunnyryder7512]

All your videos are very interesting, but this has to be my favorite so far. Im so glad to have stumbled across your channel, keep up the amazing work!

[@sapaulgoogdmen9542]

As a Christian the rant about why the all powerful God needs to take a rest day along with the complaint about how could there be days before days existed had me rolling

[@michealwilliams472]

I thought the rest day argument was pretty funny too. "Your God has to take breaks?" *rolls eyes*

[@thenarnian485]

That's because many people aren't interested in knowing what it meant to the Hebrews and instead go by their cultural understanding.

[@dokidelta1175]

That was pretty funny. With that being said, I wish I could've had a conversation with this author. His understanding of Christianity seems incomplete, and yet very close at the same time.

[@yurigagarin9765]

@@dokidelta1175 It's complete enough. The ad-hoc justifications for the inconsistencies and contradictions of the religion don't really add much.

[@andreavoigtlander1087]

you arent supposed to be on an Atheist Channel.

[@rennor3498]

Romans back the never could have foreseen that not only would Christianity become their state religion but that the very city of Rome itself would be the seat and core of Christendom.

[@vulpes7079]

And that their empire would slowly die partially thanks to it

[@voidremoved]

catholicism. Big difference it is a marian cult meant to destroy Christianity in the long run. It is why they did all that mass murder and rape all around the world in Jesus name. We are supposed to let them convince us that we are smarter now, grown up, evolved we do not need those pesky religions to scare us in to slavery or obedience. They tell us this as they make us slaves in brave new world.

[@MrHellknightimp]

@@vulpes7079 I would argue that Christianity slowed the collapse and gave the empire another 100 years it wouldn't have had otherwise.

[@brianpeck4035]

Same thing happened to Mecca

[@servornon]

@@voidremoved Yes, I second that Christianity helped the empire persist longer. Viz-a-viz Constantine re-uniting the empire as a Catholic. Also, without the Church, we would not have the Bible, as the Church created the bible in the 320's. Then you must also ask yourself if the Catholic Church is not the seat of Peter/the Apostles, then what is? How did they transfer their hierarchical power down throughout the ages? What is the seat of power of these bishops today? We have become students of history and determine where the will of God has progressed throughout the centuries, and then look around as say: "If not Catholicism, then what else fits the bill? What else has had the continuous power to interpret God's word since the beginning of Christianity?" If we cannot determine this, then we are lost, subject to the whims of interpretation of whatever leaders we may be under, including ourselves.

[@drejohnson8421]

He had limited knowledge but he did a good job asking questions. His last statement showed he thought christianity was just some weird religion that would not spread accross the world, but spread it did.

[@Alusnovalotus]

I like this Roman. He seems sarcastic and he really wondered about Jewish cosmogony. And I’ve always asked about the concept of “days” without the very things needed to denote “days”.

[@alanpennie]

He might have read Philo, who pondered this question, with profit.

[@rogeranderson9746]

Don't know if this is on point or not but the bible does not say days its referring to daytime. It's lost in the translation.

[@TheNightWatcher1385]

I was always taught that everything was created on the first day and the subsequent days was simply God giving everything a distinct form and nature. And in the context of the universe, there was certainly light before the sun as the sun is no where near the oldest star we know of.

[@TheVirtualObserver]

@@TheNightWatcher1385 My mom has a theory that it also has to do with Moses only being able to take in so much at a time when writing everything down on Mount Sinai. If he was seeing visions from God then he'd only be able to see so much in a day, and to make things easier both for himself and the rest of the Israelites he delineated each epoch as a "day" since that's what he saw in a single day up on the mountain.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

Just checked Genesis and while the actual sun and moon aren’t made until day 4, there is a prototype of the day-night cycle on day one

[@radovanwolf593]

Damn I can’t believe Romans invented Reddit

[@lollllolll.]

Explains why they were all gay and hated women

[@radovanwolf593]

@@Munchkino feeling called out, I see

[@TheMarshmelloKing]

If Celsus had a fedora, he would have tipped it.

[@whatzittooya9012]

@@Munchkino found the redditor

[@rusi6219]

​​​@@Munchkino an emotional kneejerk reaction so typical of an atheist. Reminiscing of r/atheism violating every single logical principle there is, thinking them arguments to be refuted.

[@Mithrawndates]

Man, this guy really put a lot of stock in the mystical powers of Egyptians.

[@jmchez]

That brings up the question, if the Egyptians could do such incredible "magic" tricks, why weren't they hired by the Emperor or rich Romans in every province?

[@wilsonwade2970]

About as much stock as those who believe in a virgin birth, one would say.

[@dougs7367]

So did the authors of the Bible, which borrowed heavily from Sumerian and Egyptian mythology

[@SharonMessage]

@@jmchez Indeed

[@trendgil]

Hu?

[@hedgeearthridge6807]

I can't remember the name of who said it, but a secular scholar who studied the existence of Jesus came to the conclusion: if there ever was a solid irrefutable fact in history, it's that there was somebody named Jesus causing a gigantic ruckus in Israel and even across the Roman Empire.

[@nodruj8681]

In his time there were only a small gang in israel

[@brittybee6615]

Sounds like something KZbinr historian Metatron might have said. Or academic historian Tom Holland but he’d be more eloquent about it.

[@Davakira]

"If there ever was a solid irrefutable fact in history, it's that there was somebody named Jesus causing a gigantic ruckus in Israel and even across the Roman Empire." - Abraham Lincoln probably

[@DavidLorango]

Foolish

[@JoeBuck-uc3bl]

Tons of people have, and still do, come to that conclusion.

[@ThisIsRiky]

A really important piece of history - some great points made so early.

[@thuzan117]

I like how one of his major criticisms of Jesus basically amounts to "He was a loser".

[@tetelestai5736]

Such a loser that instead of remembering him who criticized Jesus, billions in the world have Jesus present in their hearts today instead The memory of those so called philosophers and rulers in their time have passed away, Jesus Christ has not

[@WhyDidntIInventYT]

Criticizing Christianity for not being badass enough is about as Roman as it gets.

[@MichiMind]

Read Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word

[@lollllolll.]

This was the downfall of the Romans in my opinion, an complete misunderstanding of their neighbors and their issues. The Romans basically just chose to either ignore or persecute Christians, proving the whole point of christianity and how Christians considered Rome as evil and unforgiving, most Romans who joined Christianity were sick and tired of the corruption and hedonism that had taken place in the positions of power. Basically, Christianity offered salvation to people who had no other option.

[@-umph]

I mean... He has a point. If you met someone today who only convinced 12 people he was god, and 2 of them betrayed him and 8 denied knowing him, would you not find it skeptical?

[@jacopoarmini7889]

"Jewish egyptian magician says he's a god, dies in the most disgraceful way, allegedly resurrects than flees somewhere in the sky." news headlines of the edition of "Tempora"

[@bishop6218]

This edition of Tempora was brought to you by the Capitoline Brotherhood of Millers. True roman bread for true Romans.

[@Reignor99]

He didn't "flee somewhere in the sky" He moved back in with his dad, and he promised he would be back soon. Now, I know he's been offline for 2,000 years, but that doesn't mean he's dead.

[@Reignor99]

What about them?

[@Reignor99]

Islam is a fake religion, Muhammed (PBUH) was a charismatic pedophile. He didn't speak for Allah.

[@JerrysJets]

@علي ياسر Jesus refers to John the Baptist as the greatest of all the prophets (Matthew 11:11). But John the Baptist refers to Jesus as being so highly esteemed that he is not worthy to untie his sandals (John 1:27). So, while I will not insult someone you esteem so highly, these passages do not leave room for any additional revelations.

[@kevinmcqueenie7420]

Fascinating stuff. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. People back then were so different in many ways, but this kind of thing reminds us how we aren't all that far removed from them in other ways. I feel the connection. Loving that the algorithm brought me to your work recently!

[@neoqwerty]

Another work I'd recommend is Lucian of Samosata (just google him, you should get the full online archive of his works (original and translated form)!) Lucian also wrote the first known sci-fi story (it's also doubling as a satirical jab at people who wrote travellogues about places they never saw and pulling things out of their ass about what's there) and it's a delight to read. He also did a whole roast on Alexander the Oracle where he puts him on blast for being a conman "prophet" swindling people out of money and food and being an ancient Miss Cleo-style fortuneteller, it's great.

[@noahfeldman3377]

As a Christian, this is an amazing and awesome point of view to have from history. It doesn’t surprise me that the same or similar questions and comments are still around today, and even back then Christians who were supposed to be ready with a defense of the faith just told this man to “not ask questions” even as they do today.

[@thecocktailian2091]

impossible to prove faith, so why bother wasting breath and energy.

[@MrGksarathy]

It was with a slightly different context back then because at the time, Christianity was more of a mystery cult, and one only gained access to the Gospels after joining the Church.

[@williamjenkins4913]

To be fair he literally said in the beginning of his rant that he wasnt seeking answers because he already knew everything. The Bible also tells us not to waste time on people like that.

[@tylerdavis520]

@@thecocktailian2091the entire faith rests upon an allegedly real historical event: the resurrection of Jesus. If people back then didn’t actually believe that happened, I don’t think it would’ve gained much traction. Paul even admits the whole concept is worthless if the resurrection never happened

[@thecocktailian2091]

@@tylerdavis520 They thought dragons existed, so sure.

[@youtubecommenter2]

It is mind-blowing how much of what he says sounds EXACTLY like modern day objections, and how, as he said, many Jews and Christians refute his objections by saying that the texts are allegorical. It shows to some degree that religion did not exist back then simply because people were all gullible and dumb, as some people claim today.

[@joellaz9836]

I mean when Christians criticised or made fun of pagan mythology, pagans at the time would also just reply by saying that it was all allegorical and that Zeus didn’t commit adultery or rape his own daughter, but instead the stories meant something else.

[@BronzeOrwin]

*>people have thought this thought before* which makes it any less stupid?

[@rogeriopenna9014]

I rather when Christians defend their texts saying they are allegorical than fundamentalist evangelicals, who believe the texts to be literary truth. It's the second group who are most dangerous to science, who want creationism taught at schools etc

[@kelduck8851]

Or theists today, are as gullible and dumb as theists 2000 years ago.

[@youtubecommenter2]

@@BronzeOrwin Some people have been stupid before, and some people have been smart enough, before, to know it's allegorical.

[@RonniMo]

The "How can there be days?" part was hilarious.

[@MichiMind]

Because all you need is light and darkness lik

[@MichiMind]

Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word

[@jimtomo9207]

​@wargames that's a year

[@Unseen_warfare.]

@@wargames7775 2 Peter 3:8-9 reads: ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’

[@myview5840]

A day on earth, isn't the same as a day on Saturn, Jupiter or Mars.

[@donparkison4617]

If you remove the snark, the points made show that in the world before monotheism, the worship of gods and goddesses was more about sharing feasts based on the seasons. More importantly, it points out the pre monotheistic idea that gods and goddesses of other countries were neither inferior nor superior to anyone else's. The primary thing the pagans were insulted by was the idea that Jews and Christians (and later Muslims) believed their god to be unquestionably superior and would refuse to participate in the seasonal feasts of whatever country they would find themselves. Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and Celts considered each other's pantheons as either equals or at least as non threatening to their gods, therefore participating in the feast of someone else's god while in their city was no big deal. Whereas the monotheists where completely disgusted by any god not of their own and that was what was considered insulting. It was not that the Romans thought their god(s) superior, but that the monotheists did.

[@LuzianJ]

More like they hated them because the instrument they used to intimate and assert dominance was being used as a symbol of honor and redemption. It mocked their power and that is why they were appalled by it. They tolerated the Jews but not the Christians. That is exactly why.

[@nutyyyy]

Early Jews also thought along similar lines to an extent. But that their God Yahweh was the only one they should worship. Only later did they start to claim that there was only one God. Your other points are quite valid. Abrahamic monotheism was a very strange belief system for the ancient world.

[@blanktrigger8863]

This is an incredibly wrong interpretation of paganism. Even within national religions, priests were competing over which god was superior. Amun-Ra, for example, is Amun after his priests beat out the priests of other gods and made him Ra. Marduk is another example. Hinduism evidences the same the thing, and till this day there are conflicts over who is brahmin, whether Shiva or Vishnu or Devi etc (the king of the gods was once Indra, etc). Confucianism has a track record of civil war and such in China. Buddhism arose as the rejection of Hinduism, and in general whenever a nation was conquered, the victorious nation placed its gods above the gods of the conquered nation.

[@pierluigiadreani2159]

Don't agree One of the recurring theme of romans were "my Gods are stronger than yours"

[@ajrollo1437]

"Don't the Jews know Hesiod wrote all that stuff first?" - I don't know why that made me laugh so hard.

[@philsimes5210]

Who is Hesiod.?

[@iSyriux]

@@philsimes5210 Do not come to this channel with a head full of empty space

[@BronzeOrwin]

@@iSyriux useless answer

[@Gorboduc]

Ancient poet who came after Homer but before Sappho and the lyricists. He wrote a work called the Theogony which is about the creation of the Greek gods and their war against the Titans. Dates from around 750 BC.

[@DevinDTV]

@@iSyriux stupid comment. shameful that you got upvotes

[@Jim-Mc]

The Romans criticisms of the Judeo Christian God are pretty hilariously Roman, like: he's too "weak" to even convince the one man he created to follow him properly. It's literally accurate but simultaneously misses the point.

[@dubstepXpower]

Yeah or he didn't crown himself king but life a meek life hahaha really shows the Roman pride

[@danielkellyuk]

The idea of a voluntarily humble and vulnerable god was completely alien to the Roman way of thinking. It must have seemed incredibly contradictory to them. But that attitude meant they completely missed the emotional appeal of Christianity, and that persecution would just strengthen it.

[@VikingMuayThai]

The elves think of Jesus like modern day Christian’s think of Mormans.

[@Jim-Mc]

@@danielkellyuk Exactly. One might say the Romans were all about concrete things. Lol, I'll see myself out.

[@user-rv4wn5qk7q]

@@VikingMuayThai Wait, Lord of the Rings?

[@T3ddyBoy33]

I love this, it's so well voiced!

[@kickinghorse2405]

Wild! It's as though this guy was writing the script for a character in Monty Python's "The Life of Brian."

[@txterbug]

Truly amazing to get inside the mind of somebody living in these times. TRULY miraculous.

[@iratepirate3896]

That was how i gelt first reading Augustine

[@jinjunliu2401]

@@mithrandirthegrey7644 But I think a big part as to why it seems so "modern" is because roman culture has influenced a whole lot of western thought, in particular since the enlightenment and onwards

[@josephang9927]

@@mithrandirthegrey7644 Good point, but human history is very young. Call me when we have 100.000 years of written history... shit will hit the fan. 100.000 is nothing for our species but a lot for history. It will be interesting times to study. Imagine all the books, information, historical perspectives, countries, languages, etc. Even more Overwhelming than our current knowledge.

[@cpp3221]

@@josephang9927 nobody will have even a clear picture of human history.

[@ranro7371]

No. The sources being cited are dubious. This entire reading should be scrapped.

[@arrow1414]

This just shows how baffling Christianity was to the Romans. They could not image a god or demigod sacrificing himself and/or his Son for the sake of people, especially poor people, instead of the usual opposite of the people sacrificing for a god.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

What they really couldn't get their brains around is that this God or demigod would sacrifice himself or his son by allowing the Romans execute him completely naked in the most shameful manner possible. Crucifixion was in the ancient Greek and Latin intimately associated with impalement and there are ancient sources that said that crucifixion involved a safer, limited form of impalement and I am not talking about nails in the hands and feet here.

[@vanjahruska5661]

Christianity is baffling to anybody.

[@gg_gabriel_99]

@@vanjahruska5661 hello anybody, why is it baffling to you?

[@greenkontora]

@@vanjahruska5661 Speak for yourself.

[@little_wonderer9290]

@@vanjahruska5661 But aliens from outer space are plausible lol

[@harpsichordkid]

I recall some of this from the quotes in Origen’s book Against Celsus (Contra Celsum). Very effective reading on your part.

[@alanpennie]

Everything we know about Celsius is derived from Origen, who certainly took him seriously given that he wrote his refutation 70 years later.

[@alanpennie]

Celsus. Celsius was quite different.

[@The_Captainn]

I want more of this content; religions and their opponents at the time of that religions inception. This is fantastic. Islam, Mormonism, Buddhism in Japan maybe? So long as the sources exist, the potential content is endless

[@Gorboduc]

Buddhism getting chased out of its native India was probably an interesting debate. 🤔

[@I_discovered_civilization]

Why do you want content like that? There’s not many because most of the world didn’t write things down, and what was written down most likely was destroyed from fires or misplaced or lost. Why Mormonism? There already exists written accounts of islam and mormonism, and both are absurd and clearly you can see where the source of their ideas came from, as in they simply perverted Christianity and manipulated it and also perverted and incorporated Judaism, and for islam also perverted and incorporated Zoroastrian and arabic paganism. What already exists that has survived the test of time is enough you can study on your own. There are plenty of books and papers written about these sources, and from those books you can source and read the original documents yourself. I find modern humans so lazy in their research, full of hubris and lack of diligence to alleviate their own ignorance about what already is known and exists. Instead they stay ignorant and think they know more than others to confirm their own biases and beliefs. Never once really challenging their own worldviews or admit their level of ignorance. This isn’t an attack on you. I just find more recent generations having these qualities, as well as so called pseudo intellectual types like atheists.

[@pkgpk5564]

Criticism of Islam? Lol bheading will take place man Islam is not mature

[@lucifer2b666]

@@I_discovered_civilization fair points and I agree that they are perverted representations of the source material. However, this guy wants the historical arguments in the past. Not the current ones. Because it's entertaining, not because it has super great value which I agree with too. I know plenty about Mormonism and Islam but hearing the voices of the past would be cool to hear about the topic.

[@Esper320]

@@I_discovered_civilization calm down m'lady

[@SquashGuy02134]

Imagine if you could somehow talk to the dead and tell this guy about the Holy Roman Empire and the crusades.

[@ok-kk3ic]

Great comment

[@GBlockbreaker]

Bro if i could talk to the dead you can bet i won't be using it to clown on people before finding out as much about history as i can

[@SquashGuy02134]

@@GBlockbreaker that's why they only give wishes to idiots

[@magtovi]

The not Holy not Roman and not Empire?

[@makutas-v261]

"OK you guys are strong now"

[@Markfr0mCanada]

I got a chuckle out of that, thank you.

[@royce5305]

What an utterly fascinating account, thank you for sharing.

[@coreytaylor447]

"they can not tollorate temples, alters or images" boy did that change with time lol

[@ChristianAuditore14]

Only in pagan Christianity

[@saturos53]

@@EresirThe1st He is just a Christian nutjob responding to every comment that the irony of this video is lost to him. Pay him no attention.

[@joellaz9836]

@@EresirThe1st To be fair, it was the Saxons who started raiding his lands. He behaved no differently from any other conqueror did before or after him. Romans would have done worse to the Saxons. 4000? What’s in comparison to the 1 million killed by Romans in Gaul.

[@bishop6218]

@@joellaz9836 he actually did behave differently. Pagan empires Rome, Persia, Macedonia let conquered peoples worship whatever they liked. There may have been exceptions i'm not aware of, but afaik Charlemagne was the first to offer only 3 options : conversion, death, or slavery. And he set up a fucking trend too.

[@xiuhcoatl4830]

@Gideon U yes because the christian god behaves like a spoiled teenager in her 16th birthday... Also "christianity didn't prosecute other religions" Hahahahahahahahahahahahaaha

[@TheLoneClaw]

"This 'Christianity' thing is just a scam. It'll never catch on."

[@filcalippo]

Good news is, it's almost done for (in first world countries). Took a while though

[@tammesikkema5322]

@@filcalippo and there goes our culture, morals, a whole bunch of world wars, and most things that are considered "good" by people, likely including you. "God is dead, and we murdered him." Nietzche wrote. But what happens after won't be pretty at all.

[@Wallrod]

@@tammesikkema5322 If you need religion to give you morals, you never had any in the first place.

[@areyoutheregoditsmedave]

@@filcalippo it’s not going anywhere dawg

[@jamieseekle2357]

@@tammesikkema5322 yes, because society was perfect during the height of Christendom. There was no corruption. There were no wars, or witch hunts. Everything was just peachy.

[@uncensoredpilgrims]

This Roman is managing to make a very convincing argument that the disciples would never have made up the things we read in the Gospels. Things like "half-frantic women" being the first to witness the Resurrection, and how Jesus' own disciples abandoned him.

[@withlessAsbestos]

Yeah, it’s funny how much this Roman sounded like the Pharisees.

[@Kylephibbsky]

This is actually a part of the Christian apologetics of the gospels. Basically it boils down to: "If they weren't telling the truth, they would have told a lie that was more socially permissible." The idea that you'd rely on the account of "frantic woman" for the first testimony of the risen Christ would have been ludicrous to Roman and Jewish society. So, as it follows, someone who was making up the story whole cloth, wouldn't have mentioned them at all. Indeed interestingly, the later gospels like Luke and John omit Mary's arrival at Christ's empty tomb and focus instead on the fact that Peter was the first man to see the empty tomb, in all likelihood because they knew few in their audience would have cared that Mary was there before him.

[@uncensoredpilgrims]

@@Kylephibbsky There's perhaps some merit there, but I think John Tors makes a good point that many apologists run too far with this argument. After all, the Bible itself records that the woman at the well went around telling people about Jesus and many believed because of her testimony. This was a woman who was shunned because of her reputation, etc., yet the people could apparently accept her word and believe, even though she was a woman. So we shouldn't overplay this hand of "nobody believed women". With that said though, I do think there's a humility displayed in that women were the first witnesses. Jesus could have had Emperor Tiberius himself be the first witness!

[@karimmezghiche9921]

​@@Kylephibbskyso the story of Jesus was changed depending on the audience. And Christians do not see how this makes Christianity vulnerable to corruption.

[@nutyyyy]

He's not saying there was no Jesus, just that he wasn't divine.

[@monkeywrench2800]

Epic.... Thank you.

[@iamatrader666]

This channel is so amazing because it can go on FOREVER. One day, this channel will post a video from this period.

[@jesussaves6625]

Yeah, that's exactly how history works...

[@TheShadowOfMars]

Readings from the comments beneath the KZbin video "Do the dog-headed men have souls!?"

[@iamatrader666]

@@TheShadowOfMars I thought that video was one of the most interesting excerpts from the page.

[@jesussaves6625]

I didn't mean that to be insulting, or rude, by the way.. It looks very snarky seeing it now, but I was just trying to be funny :)

[@TheLionFarm]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6uXaqCYebuqg5Y ...oh

[@krcmaine]

Thank you again for your work, this is really fascinating!

[@tedpikul1]

Absolutely fascinating.

[@iianneill6013]

This is so refreshing!

[@buenoexcellente5364]

This guy would later be verified as the first Redditor

[@ProfessorShnacktime]

Best comment

[@khobzabatata7100]

haha so true honestly

[@henrimourant9855]

Lmao

[@theb3rn7]

Based department?

[@overlorddante]

Shit I was wondering why this video felt familiar 🤣

[@lupus_in_fabula]

Truly an astounding viewpoint from such an integral time for the formation of early Christianity. Not many contemporary sources, let alone from non-believers, are well known. I thank you for this upload.

[@withlessAsbestos]

@@artemdown6609I mean literally all of the New Testament was written within 80 years of the crucifixion. ( If I recall)

[@RMScott]

Well said!

[@fabricio-agrippa-zarate1000]

I seriously need to read to Celsius. This was GREAT.

[@delskioffskinov]

I truly love your presentation style! This is a great youtube channel, like no other!

[@JoseCastro-fn9xs]

Fishermen are pretty wicked… those notorious fishermen

[@mike-0451]

It’s funny how modern people think ancient people are so weird for thinking that fishermen were inferior when that’s exactly what they would actually believe if they didn’t subscribe to the Christian definition of a human. If an atheist wanted to truly act like he would, then he would crush the slave and reprobates skull under his foot because by all practical account, he is superior to them. That is, unless you believe people are possessive a spark of divinity. That’s a radical thing to believe.

[@sobersplash6172]

@@mike-0451 what

[@mike-0451]

@@sobersplash6172 read more and watch less anime. It’s rotting your brain.

[@jordanandrew2786]

@@mike-0451 to be fair, not all anime is complete coomer filth. Some actually try to tell decent stories.

[@gentlerat]

I'm guessing it's because fishermen are associated with sailors and ports, which tend to have more frequent "immoral" associations?

[@rexmagi4606]

Dude did his homework and came with heat, lol.

[@billykotsos4642]

All great points

[@SmallHandsBigBite]

As a Chaldean, I find this script fascinating. Love all of the work that you do and I eagerly await your videos. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Would love to see more from the ancient and classical era!

[@Sleepless4Life]

What does Chaldean mean? No troll, I really wanna know.

[@shareem1779]

@@Sleepless4Life assyrians or syriacs

[@tacidian7573]

Stay safe, Chaldeans.

[@C-Farsene_5]

Damn no offense but I forget the Chaldeans continue to exist and survive as an ethnic group up to this point, like ya’ll are more ancient than Jesus and Buddha

[@__prometheus__]

@@Sleepless4Life ethnic group that lives in the middle east. also chaldean catholics

[@BusoRockin1000]

This guy wrote a roast. I imagine debate practices of the era weren't up to modern pedagogical standards, but damn did this guy exclusively go for the jugular.

[@jasjfl]

I like how a good roast of Christianity hasn't changed in the last 1800 years.

[@userequaltoNull]

@@jasjfl almost like the flaws are the same, 1800 years later

[@TheLionFarm]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6uXaqCYebuqg5Y Truth here

[@jackylaibach2351]

As I have been listening to Matt Dillahunty

[@lollllolll.]

@@userequaltoNull explains why christianity outlived Rome and basically made a country the size of Luxembourg 10× greater than Rome.

[@ALEJANDROARANDARICKERT]

Great stuff. Gratias Celsus

[@carlgreen4222]

What a refreshing take on that time period.

[@laisphinto6372]

Bro that are the exact Same Arguments the Jews Made on Jesus trying to make Pilatus execute him and when Pilatus didnt find any fault they threatened to revolts and thats why Jesus was executed.

[@gnosisdocumentaries4481]

Yet another amazing video! Always bits of new knowledge.

[@pilgrimonthelongroad2875]

4:40 its interesting how he doens't just say "this didn't happen". Wouldn't it be known at that time that herod did or did not kill a bunch of babies? but his main objection is just that Jesus did not become a king, not that herod didn't kill to find him or that the magi didn't come.

[@1000niggawatt]

what if he wasn't that deep into christian lore?

[@ikarly2898]

@@1000niggawatt Whether you're a believer or not, you must consider that a.) The coming of a Messiah, King etc is a popular belief among Jews b.)As a consequence, Herod saw this as a threat to his own authority. Throughout history political leaders always sought to control or influence people's religious views because it can be a catalyst for rebellion or at least contribute to a state's instability.

[@pilgrimonthelongroad2875]

@@1000niggawatt The point is that at that time, it would have been entirely possible to fact check and say "The Christians *say* he was visited by wise men and herod killed a bunch of babies, but that didn't actually *happen*" but he didn't say that. He just said the hope of the wise men apparently didn't come true. So we must conclude that at least this guy thought these happenings were entirely plausible, or even undisputed.

[@tejasmisra9115]

Herod most likely died in 4-1 BC, he wasn't even alive during Jesus's supposed birth.

[@LostArchivist]

@@tejasmisra9115 Christ likely was born around 1--2 BC. So there is a time frame it could work, even if that dating for Herod`s death was not controversial and challenged. Though if evidence could be deduced or obtained to pin down either we would have the exact likely year which, is very rare for so ancient events.

[@richardcranium3254]

Hands down, the COOLEST channel on KZbin!!!

[@andrewferg8737]

It should be noted that Celsus' works were not preserved. Rather, his "Logos Alethes" is reconstructed from quotations found in Origen's later work "Contra Celsum". Celsus critique of Christianity presents no novelty. Rather, his writings simply lend confirmation to the claim that from earliest times, the Church has always held Christ to be Divine.

[@ihavenojawandimustscream4681]

No, see the Ebionites who later influenced the rise of Islam.

[@zenga55]

This is so freaking interesting. This is one of the best KZbin channels I have discovered.

[@gd5066]

This was brilliant 😊. I'll listen to this more than once for sure.

[@MichiMind]

One side twice? Shameless Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word

[@evanperrine5973]

Whether you agree with him or not, it's impressive that someone living that far back in the past in Rome could be that knowledgeable about Israel and the story of Jesus, considering this was before the bible had been compiled (and the fact that information about these matters would've been much scarcer in those times). You can't deny that they make a reasonable (although not perfect) argument, even by today's standards. He sounds... understandable. I guess I'm just not used to imaging someone from that time period sounding so coherent.

[@neoqwerty]

Read up on Lucian of Samosata. We have his ENTIRE body of works (through sheer volume and popularity, so you could consider him the ancient equivalent of a celebrity author, enough people had enough of his stuff that we could recover it all) and it's all been translated to english. He was from around the later 200s CE/AD, so not sure if he's contemporary to Celsus, but he has a vast and varied body of works. People have been coherent since before written history, and we only perceive incoherence because what we have are often fragments, people quoting others (as in Celsus' case, Origen point-by-point debated him like ancient Redditors fighting with each other), and we don't always realize they're from similar but unrelated branches, or we're missing the contemporary framework to re-contextualize what seems incoherent. Just as a sallient but more recent example: most medieval bestiaries sound like complete nuttery. Add in the layer that they're meant as moral allegories, not naturalist works, and it clarifies. Add in the common idioms and the fact most of the population knew its saints like the back of their own hands, and you realize a lot of those aren't just allegories, but moral mnemonic devices using common sayings about the saints as metaphors for moral actions and cleansing rituals. We've got evidence that Prudentia (the Roman/Greek goddess of carefulness) has iconography that represents two ancient greek cryptographical devices: the mirror represents a speculum (a mirror with five cypher wheels) and a mnemonic snake (a snake-like coiled spiral with movable wheels that matches a "back spine" to a "belly scale" letter, to create a more elaborate cypher). They basically made _Carefulness_ armed with _cryptography tools_ . They knew cryptography, even back then, which kinda shows that there was a LOT of intelligence around.

[@alexlaw1892]

There were far more coherent people then than now, I can assure you of that😂

[@alanpennie]

The Bible definitely had been compiled in the form of the Greek Septuagint.

[@alanpennie]

But you're right that his knowledge of The Christian gospels really is impressive.

[@Ryan-kn6xd]

He doesn’t mention Israel but he does mention Palestine here 8:56

[@mikemoreno4469]

Amazing!

This, sir, has just become one of my favorite videos ever. Thanks.

[@MichiMind]

Also see 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word

[@gmrads]

Part of why I love this channel and the stories shared is hearing… well shared mythology, such as two different people both having mythology about serpents and they share similar plots (which certainly isn’t a coincidence). It’s easy to think of the ancient world like a map, the Jews were here, Roman’s there, Christan’s here and there, but this really helps show that it was a very connected world

[@nathanlevesque7812]

@@EresirThe1st that 'homogeneity' is a game of delineation

[@josephang9927]

I suggest you to read Carl Jung. He claimed Serpents are special in all myths. They are a universal divine motif. Serpents are also special in human Evolution, as they have always been enemies of our ancestors.

[@ehhe4381]

m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJOmoH5_jJV_fac

[@TheLionFarm]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6uXaqCYebuqg5Y 177ad lol

[@georgelincolnrockwell6248]

"It was a very global and culturally diverse world #oneworld #trustfundbabiesforisrael" *sips starbucks* Get fucked right off...

[@ukcurlygrl1]

Love this

[@robertbertagna1672]

very good presentation to my education pretty light origins of christ very good lecture thqank you.

[@red_nikolai]

I am slack-jawed, I had no idea a document like this existed. I am most surprised that it seems the author has actually read books of the Bible; his references are generally precise and accurate, and it doesn't sound like he's making a critique merely based on hearsay.

[@prestonjones1653]

I'm surprised such a document was allowed to survive. Christians aren't exactly famous for being tolerant.

[@henrimourant9855]

@@prestonjones1653 There are a surprising amount of these antichristian writings that survive. You know how? They are extensively quoted by Christian authors trying to refute them. In this case this account ("On the True Word" by Celsus) survives because the ancient Christian theologian and scholar Origen wrote a book specifically to refute his antichristian arguments (called "Against Celsus") where he rebuts each of his arguments point by point thereby unwittingly preserving Celsus's book.

[@theend3541]

Romans loved to read. They didn't have TV and pulp magazines after all lol if you ain't reading you're working. And if you ain't working or reading you're bored out of your mind in ancient Rome. This man probably read the whole ass bible in one go.

[@degeneratedeuterium5164]

@@henrimourant9855 blessed spinoza!

[@GermanConquistador08]

His reference are correct, but the way he references them shows that he doesn't truly understand what he's reading.

[@vincenzorutigliano5435]

The myth of Jesús being son of a soldier called pantera was started by the Jews, in the gospel of John the pharesees accuse Jesus of being a "bastard" and in the Talmud there is mentioned of a "Yeshu Ben Pantera"

[@darthtiberius3716]

tell us what else is said in the talmud about jesus lmao

[@Nobody32990]

Could you provide some sources? would like to read more into it.

[@anti0918]

@Leo the British-Filipino TBF Jesus never actually existed, so people can and have attributed to him whatever they want to throughout history.

[@ovs8691]

@@anti0918 Which jew do you idolize the most to have formed this opinion on Christ?

[@tyanthony1499]

It makes sense consider that virgins can't conceive a baby, they would've spread the same rumor in the neighborhood that I grew up in

[@Joel-bg3cf]

What a great apologetic for Jesus. Thank you, Pagan author!

[@josephyoung6749]

your soothing voice

[@bohemianwriter1]

This is the most entertaining description of christians i have read all week.

[@MPHJackson7]

5:15 Oh, dear Jove! Not fishermen! What dreadful scoundrels these men were! You have to wonder if Celsus had a bad run-in with a fisherman once.

[@mike-0451]

Celsus’s view of fisherman was shared with all pagans. It was extremely radical to consider people like fisherman as human beings.

[@greatexpectations6577]

Fisherman are good, but they wouldn’t be the first I would imagine to come to my help for question regarding theology and doctrine and the meaning of life.

[@gaslitworldf.melissab2897]

Class divisions then were acceptable and requisite. Work that made you dirty and smelly won you know honors back then, no matter how honest and useful. I recall that Egyptians loathed the work of shepherding. Again. They would smell like sheep, earth and sweat.

[@mike-0451]

@@gaslitworldf.melissab2897 and now the opposite it true. The first will be the last and vice versa.

[@LuisAldamiz]

And tax collectors, mind you.

[@WSFM_Rex]

Wow. This is one of my favorite channels on KZbin 🔥🐐 keep up the good work sir

[@derekhunter7632]

thank you for explaining the life of brian jokes i missed like brian being the son of a roman soldier.

[@alanpennie]

This little story was taken seriously by proto - Nazis to argue that "Jesus was an Aryan".

[@voxlknight2155]

Much of what he says points directly to his misunderstanding of what Christians believe in. More concerning is that modern atheists have the exact same misunderstandings.

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

At this point I think it’s safe to assume they’re no longer “misunderstanding” at this point. *“For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”* ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@NORTH02]

Extremely facinating. Your content is top notch.

[@vasoandguladze3239]

your content is top notch as well. good luck :))

[@ahronthegreat]

❤

[@PedroHLima12]

Thank you for sharing! Such good points he brings up. Now you should bring us Origen's response.

[@TheNightWatcher1385]

You should now do a reading of Origen’s response to Celus.

[@WildFungus]

his closing remark made Constantine smile. He was like that's a good idea we should do that and then they can stop setting fire to eachother's houses.

[@MariaMartinez-researcher]

Celsus' work elicited the writing of a point by point answer: Contra Celsum, by Origen of Alexandria, one of the major apologetics works in early Christianity, and the first one to use philosophical arguments. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_Celsum The Wikipedia article links to several versions of this work, in Greek, English, and audio book. Interestingly, all what is known of Celsus' work are Origen's quotes of it. So, here we are hearing both Celsus and Origen.

[@Aaron-pe7xk]

Thank you for this

[@stoobeedoo]

It's interesting seeing how the arguments from Origen against Celsus seem to reflect arguments of those today of faith vs skepticism. Celsus spends much time talking on the absurdity of the stories behind the gospels, their lack of validity and how Jesus was more likely a conman and a charlatan than an actual living son of God. Origien responds to this by first starting with ad-hominem attacks against Celsus' reputation then uses theology as a counter argument rather than supplying any credible evidence of the historical events surrounding the Gospels.

[@MariaMartinez-researcher]

@@stoobeedoo ¿How can anyone provide "credible evidence of the historical events"? At the time, it was unnecessary, since the existence itself of Jesus's followers was evidence of his existence long before the canon of the Gospels were determined. Everyone knew what a crucifixion was like, and possibly Pilato was still a recognized name. Augustus certainly was. It is not the historical facts of the time what is the basis of Christianity. It was, and always has been, the belief of Jesus being the Son of the only living God, who resurrected among the dead. Faith. Which by definition means to believe without evidence. It's so hard, that Christian theology defines Faith as a theologal virtue, a gift given by God himself, not something you develop from your own effort or you achieve by the scientific method or you base on historical evidence. Celsus called the Christians dumb, Origen answered, no, you are the dumb one :-) And thanks to that exchange, we got to know how those men from ancient time argued about transcendental subjects.

[@TheLionFarm]

Come by kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6uXaqCYebuqg5Y

[@ishxyzaak]

Oof origen is a big time liar who Said it was OK to lie to propagate religion so I can't really trust him. He had said some things which are almost definitely lies against other Christian groups as well to win arguments.

[@FupaDoncic]

Glad to know Jesus loved Dimebag’s sick solos and Pantera

[@lordadamson]

😂

[@LuisAldamiz]

Panthera was the best!

[@JulianEmdon]

All makes sense now! Dimebag was the Second Coming 🙏

[@sachinsurya007]

Its crazy how accurate they sound even to this day

[@OwnFall420]

If you’re a Redditor lol

[@genuser9758]

@@OwnFall420 Found the christian👆.

[@ChrisRowe]

What’s fascinating is that archaeologists actually discovered a tombstone for a Tiberius Pantera in Germany who had served in Judea at exactly the time when Jesus would have been conceived en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera

[@evangelicalsnever-lie9792]

One of my favorites 👍

[@AndersonNSilva-mw7kl]

"Jewish Carpenter God DEBUNKED" by Thunderf00tius Pessimus

[@gideonunger7284]

that made me chuckle. He truly was the first redditor

[@evilkhamzat]

It’s amazing how he sounds exactly like atheist KZbin from ~2007 ish 😂. Although I guess the criticisms haven’t really changed after 2 millennium.

[@gideonunger7284]

@@evilkhamzat same book same plot holes. Although this account is still a bit pre book ^^ It all did sound eeriely familiar though :p

[@LuisAldamiz]

His name was Celsus, which means Celestial. Worth pondering about.

[@ChristianAuditore14]

@@gideonunger7284 no a single plot hole was mentioned in this video lol

[@jmchez]

This reminds me of your video on the Scotsman who wrote that article making fun of the Declaration of Independence while showing his lack of understanding of its importance.

[@EkoFranko]

The ingorance of erudite at its finest

[@LuisAldamiz]

You can't blame him. Who'd have thought that the cult would gain enough power to take over the Empire when they were apparently blind to the Sun itself.

[@EkoFranko]

@@LuisAldamiz nice pop culture stereotypes, but i didnt know that christians started Crisis of the Third Century and then implemented Dominate as government system. And I doubt that christians were a main reason of deurbanization of roman empire. Also I think that it was not a christianity that started migration period. When people say that chistians took over rome and destroyed empire i always find it funny how they dont mention about... you know Basileia Romaion.

[@filcalippo]

@@EkoFranko christians didn't destroy the empire, they simply destroyed roman culture. Which is a way bigger crime

[@tammesikkema5322]

@@filcalippo I think you might want to reconsider that opinion. Because it is likely your morals, or perception of good and evil, are based on Christianity. The Romans would be quite barbarous when measured by those standards. But I don't know you, so please do take it with a pinch of salt. I just think that morals, culture and religion of any kind cannot be divorced and kept alive seperately. If one goes, so do the others eventually. Anyways, enough rambling. Goodnight.

[@dokidelta1175]

This is so wildy interesting to me. How desprately I wish I could've had a conversation with this man. It's impressive just how much knowledge he had of Christianity at the time, even if some of it may have been incomplete or misunderstood.

[@jira6423]

He was closer to the time to Jesus than you are. It’s more likely that the modern Christian teachings incomplete and misunderstood than his sources were.

[@maluill]

​@@jira6423how do you misunderstand how many disciples there are and Jesus adopted father wrong? He just would have had to read a scroll or codex to find that out.

[@dylanakent]

BRAVO!