The Norte Chico and the Peruvian Preceramic

How did simple fishermen and farmers on the Peruvian coast create the foundation for all later Andean culture? Find out as we discuss the Norte Chico civilization and how they influenced later civilizations to come.
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[@luispereztasso]

Hi! Peruvian archaeologist here. Just a few notes: 1. We're still not sure to use the term "city" in this moment of time, let alone "civilization". We have to take into account that the Caral-Supe archaeological program was based on the first published papers made by R. Shady from the early 2000s, but then most of the information has been just accesible internally and not published. Also, take into account that none of the monuments built there were constructed at the same time, and just a few were used simultaneously. 2. Nowadays there is a discussion about how we periodify prehispanic history here in the central Andes, because the term "Preceramic" still carries the ideological baggage of the Western way of periodify (aka Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic, etc), in other words, using mainly technology as a quick way to infer societal development. Another way of seeing it is the periodification proposed by L. G. Lumbreras. Check out Peter Kaulicke's work in his book about the "Formative" period. 3. A way to understand the origin of ceramic is by the study of the "chiselled gourds". 4. Kotosh and El Paraiso weren't abandoned by the 1800 BCE, but rather reformed and expanded in size, complexity and estructures by that era. Kotosh was occupied even during Chavin times. 5. The destruction of El Paraiso only was done in one of the later mounds built after the original "Preceramic" stone one. 6. Some of the U-shaped buildings that will thirve in later centuries in the central coast of Peru began the first stages of their construction by the 2500 BCE. 7. Another point to take into account is that Andean prehispanic construction, during usage, was like a "onion" way: with layers built one over the other. The size/monumentality of most of the archaeological sites, mostly during this early periods, as seen today, are just result of a all the final layers put together. Sorry for the long text. Thanks for the video!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you for the awesome feedback! It's always nice to get an expert's take!

[@luispereztasso]

@@AncientAmericas Thank you for your work spreading this knowledge to anglo-speaking folks! Glad to help!

[@vladimircharvat7331]

Hello, I am glad here is someone from peruvian archeologists. May I have a question or two? This questions even made me to visit Peru this May, but I did not found all answers I am looking for (I found some in museum at cerro sechin). I would be very happy if you know answers... First. Which civilisation made incredible road net with some around 60m wide roads (one such wide is Camina grande at Las Haldas, thus we know who probably made it, second is north of Casma in desert - and I would bet its also from las haldas, sechin bajo etc times, there is even newer, but also ancient thinner (around13m wide) road just in the middle of that 60m wide with structures builded along thinner one) in and around casma valley (continuing far south of Huaraz). As I tried to map them, I believe there are two different eras (maybe three, preceramic/initial period, early horizon and later Wari/Inca) of roads . But I have found very few or none informations on this topic (and yes, I know official dates for all sites around, but sometimes its hard to tell if the road is a part of settlement or goes across older settlement as for example a road from el purgatorio crossing older site of pampa de las moxeke or later spanish road just around pyramid at taukachi konkan, and i still do miss informations about a lot of sites that are clearly visible on google maps, but were probably never excavated... there was some survey of casma valley lately, but what i understood from crude map from article, they missed many very interesting sites and i did not found more specific informations about that survey (which i understand, there were sadly signs of looting at all sites we visited in casma valley, at chankillo we even found human bones just thrown on pile, clearly not original deposit)). Second. Are the scientists aware of system of thousands of lines that seems to be perfect isolines in heights between 3500-4800m above sea line in area from north of huaraz down south nearly to incan areas, most southern i found is near Abancay)... I maped huge areas of these lines, and still finding new ones. It could be some hunderds of square kilometers. I even personally visited few of them (on the way caral-chavin de huantar-huaraz-casma), these are just slight depresions in ground, lines copying the height of slope (sometimes seems to be thin, sometimes it seems erosion worked and widened them more). But it was really not easy for me there, i use to live 200m above sea, so i had real physical problems there with altitude. So I do have just a few pictures of them, but it can be clearly seen at google maps (but are hardly seen from ground). They are really old, because they are a layer under road that is called precolumbian road (probably Wari). And if are scientists aware of this, why noone talks about it... Its more crazy than Nazca lines... but i did not found anything about this... Why, when, who... And the last one. In some paper (I think it was from mr. and mrs. pozorski about excavation of las haldas, but not really sure) I read that there is a problem with pottery in that area. That we do not find pottery not because they were not aware of it, but that there are some conditions that completely dissolve pottery after some time. If we would take as a fact the hypothesis of pozorski about water in las haldas (bringing it from casma river 20km away), it would be nearly impossible without pottery... So, the question is, is there really any such debate about preceramic era, or it was just some "single missed shot" without any base? Thank you in advance if you have and share some informations.

[@vladimircharvat7331]

I do have just one video of those lines online, but are very hard to see... Its the best I was able to do there, it was in more than 4020m above sea, plains west of Lake Conococha. On google maps are perfectly visible in this area. kzbin.info/www/bejne/inWUc4homteFidk

[@luispereztasso]

@@vladimircharvat7331 Hi! Thank you for such interesting questions! Ok, let me answer with the little knowledge I have. 1. About the roads. To be completely honest, this is a topic that hasn't been fully researched for two reasons. First, because we don't have other source that allows us to link specific roads to specific eras, or even tangentially, i.e. iconographic depiction, architecture that were specifically designed to be related to the roads (apart from the Tambos, that are, as far as we know, exclusive for the Tahuantinsuyo era). And thanks to that, and other reasons related to logistics or financial resources for researchers made really difficult to study the roads before the Tahuantinsuyo. Second, the Qhapaq Ñan (the Tahuantinsuyo inca road system), as the Spaniards found it in the 16th century, was built mostly reusing and upgrading former roads that were made by other cultures and societies. Sadly, because of this, most of their remains were destroyed in the way to consolidate the "Incan road system" so, it's pretty hard to tell when a specific road was first built. Of course, we can make a guess just by looking at the monuments that were connected by a road, but we can't be sure because of Wakanism (the belief that the Incas had and consisted on thinking that ancient remains from societies before them contained spirits, so they usually "intervened" by putting burials inside, pottery, or even connecting their roads by building new ones).

[@-MONTEZUMA]

I know that's not the purpose of the video, but I would like to point out how carefully developed foods by these civilizations have saved millions of people from starvation in Europe, allowing that continent to experience gigantic population growth and hunger reduction. This is an important thing that deserves more attention. Excellent channel, champ, keep it up!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thanks! And don't worry, one of those foods will have it's own episode this year.

[@Mrdjango1425]

@@AncientAmericas Is it potatoes? We, Peruvians are potato wizards

[@AncientAmericas]

@@Mrdjango1425 maybe...

[@liziel9490]

This is extremely intentional and is tied to the Doctrine of Discovery which uses false and racist narratives to justify colonialism and stealing of lands, rights and lives. It was in the colonizing European powers’ interest to portray the native peoples they were colonizing as lesser than and underdeveloped, thus why often these amazing achievements are never attributed or even acknowledged. You can read more about the Doctrine of Discovery in Miller Robert J “The Doctrine of Discovery: The International Law of Colonialism”

[@houseofsolomon2440]

@@Mrdjango1425 potatoes + fat + salt + Peruvians = delicious!

[@mauricio9564]

Something to remember is that this civilization was a contemporary of Old Kingdom Egypt and the other first civilizations of the Near East and Far East.

[@AncientAmericas]

You are correct! I actually have very mixed feelings about measuring American civilizations to civilizations of the old world because their circumstances of development are so different.

[@halweilbrenner9926]

That's why I made my comment similar 2 yours.

[@michaelhull1813]

But should we be amazed that humans would develop technology and structure societies?

[@JozefLucifugeKorzeniowski]

@@michaelhull1813 if humans have had to disperse from Africa all the way to the west coast of South America on foot and found a civilization around the same time as the earliest civilizations in or directly above Africa...yeah that's pretty damn surprising.

[@mstins3925]

@@AncientAmericas These people came from Egypt, it was proven years ago. Their boat could travel to the Americas. During the earliest intermediate people of Egypt and their problem with climate, people travel across the ocean to other places.

[@no3396]

I’m so happy to have found this channel.

[@AncientAmericas]

I'm happy you found it as well!

[@adamlombard3771]

Same. Binging it :) thank you sir

[@madisonham5384]

Same

[@waipalisrevenge3707]

So am I

[@armandoonyx4064]

instablaster.

[@danielvelizotani9779]

"Norte Chico" literally means "small north", and is a colloquial and vague term we use for the mid-north area. Where starts and ends the small north? We don't know. Thats why we prefer the term Caral-Supe, since it's more precise.

[@HaroldDVasquezLopez]

The “norte chico” is more of a colloquial name for local Peruvians specially from Lima, to refer to the area just north of the capital city of Lima, hence most of norte chico civilization is located within the northern coastal region of the region/state of Lima. My conclusion over this, is largely based on the fact that we people from Lima, always refer to visiting the “beach districts” just south of Lima, between the capital city and Cañete (a city at the southern part of the state) as going to “el sur chico” and it works the same for places north of the capital but not further beyond the town of Barranca, (northernmost city/town in Lima region), since the “Caral-Supe” civilization settled around this area, thus the reason as to why local archeologists and researchers referred to this civilization with that name.

[@andresamplonius315]

Te faltó aclarar que nuestro "centro" es la ciudad capital de Lima, ella misma justo en medio del departamento del mismo nombre. Y si, no es una expresión muy precisa, por lo cual normalmente a las culturas se las denomina por la localidad donde se ubican o donde primero se conocen sus restos arqueológicos.

[@rafaelromero6306]

Two things missing here: a) Norte Chico is also the place where the first musical instruments were found, flutes made of bird bones; b) So far the area comprises 32 sites, of which 14 achieved full city status (= town with division of labour), the oldest being Huaricanga. Otherwise, excellent video.

[@AncientAmericas]

Thanks! I didn't realize that the bone flutes were the first ever in the Americas. Very interesting! And yes, the culture does have many more sites but Caral is what I focused on because it's the most studied.

[@etchalaco9971]

@@AncientAmericas Caral alsa has the first monolith, the first communal use of coca, hidraulic engineering, urbanism, amphitheater, etc.

[@cjpike1683]

google said the city state of ur had the first instruments but its wikipedia

[@cjpike1683]

Also they did not make pottery

[@cjpike1683]

@@AncientAmericas just a fun fact

[@jacobrosewater8811]

This is really good! I'm so glad I found this as no one ever covers history in the Americas - except for the Maya, Inca, and Aztecs of course. This is very high quality and I can't wait to see more.

[@AncientAmericas]

If you want another good channel that deals with the history of the Americas, I would highly recommend Atzlan Historian.

[@jacobrosewater8811]

@@AncientAmericas Thanks for the recommendation. I'll go check their channel out.

[@halweilbrenner9926]

Some Morman texts mention ancient American peoples during biblical times.

[@mkn.567]

of course, this throws a wrench into those who believe that all civilizations started in the east.

[@superhappyfuntimeshow]

@@halweilbrenner9926 that is a product of a old racist idea that the mormons adopted. Back in the 1800s the Native American was reviled and thought of as a savage. When we began discovering their mound cities the reasoning was that godless savages could have not built them so it was hypothesized that a long forgotten race of white people built the mound cities. This is categorically false, of course. Native Americans built the cities. But the mormons adopted this idea and codified it into their religion. This is an extremely dangerous and distorted version of history that should not be listened to or trusted.

[@fetijajasari9522]

Your channel is to me what the channel "history with Cy" is to the Near East, Egypt and Arabia. It's simply great to learn about the achievements of human beings all over the world! Thank you sooo much!

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@katmannsson]

I... agree with this assessment. Just as History With Cy is creating content on a period in time that is highly mischaracterized by youtubers and history presenters (coughs in Ancient Aliens) this channel does the same for an Equally unrepresented period of time in the Ancient American civilizations. VERY good comparison.

[@AncientAmericas]

@@katmannsson I appreciate the comparison! Color me flattered.

[@manuel_qul]

Muchas gracias! Vivo cerca al Norte chico, y he estado allí antes, pero visitarlo con este mejor panorama será estupendo! Saludos!

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome! It's a spectacular place that I would love to visit someday. I hope my video makes your next trip there even better! One more question, if you don't mind, is the site still open to the public? I've heard recently that there are squatters at the site that are causing a lot of trouble. Have you heard of any of this? This is the article I originally read on it a few weeks ago, www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/03/squatters-ancient-ruins-peru-death-threats-archeologist-caral?fbclid=IwAR2t5pWOGCCyODPAj-GpX-ArpdfEV5nhGsRhRurGYwOiyNUMixF5onUqu7E

[@manuel_qul]

I don't know if Caral is still open to public. Sadly, it is true that it has been having serious problems with squatters. The most recent news is that the current Peruvian president, an academic man, has recognized Ruth Shady and has pledged to protect the ruins. Unfortunately, Peruvian politics has been quite unstable. I hope Caral does not face more losses than it already had. Other sites like El Pariso or Aspero are open to visitors without problems. rpp.pe/peru/actualidad/ruth-shady-el-presidente-sagasti-se-comprometio-a-brindarnos-proteccion-para-continuar-trabajando-en-caral-orden-del-sol-noticia-1315225

[@AncientAmericas]

@@manuel_qul Thanks for the info! I really hope that things get better. It saddens me to see such an important site involved in such a bitter dispute.

[@TakittyLove]

@@manuel_qul Sí! Es una TOTAL VERGÜENZA lo que esos tipos están queriendo hacer con los alrededores de Caral. NI SIQUIERA MERECEN SER PERUANOS. La Prof. Shady incluso es hija de extranjero y ha estudiado, protegido y querido más a estas ruinas que los propios "peruanos" que se quieren adueñar de esas tierras. Una total vergüenza a esos traficantes de terrenos, encima con amenazas de muerte a una mujer que ha hecho tanto para que el Perú sea reconocido por su antigüedad y cómo Caral fue una Ciudad PACÍFICA, NO HAY EVIDENCIAS DE FORTALEZAS POR LO TANTO NI GUERRAS, y hoy en pleno Siglo21 esos tipos son lo contrario a Caral, parecen cavernícolas ignorantes solo por dinero amenazando de muerte a gente que viene a hacer bien. La prensa debería de dar más atención al problema de Caral. NO DEJEMOS QUE SEA INVADIDA Y LOTIZADA.

[@warrendourond7236]

Love your videos! I’ve been travelling to Peru for a month or more, each year for over 15 years. I’ve been to these sites, and have been researching this history, so that I can teach my children their Peruvian history and heritage. These videos are by far the most informative, researched and up to date I’ve ever found. Thank you so much for this Oasis in a desert of ancient aliens and crazy alternative history groups.

[@AncientAmericas]

Your comment warmed my heart. I'm glad you're enjoying this content and I hope your children can appreciate the amazing legacy of their ancestors.

[@MyGrassIsGreenest]

That last sentence makes me laugh and cry at the same time lol

[@onlygamesthatdeserverecord]

what heritage are you going to teach to your children? peruvian heritage? how do you know who his ancestors were, it could have been from the north coast, he could be a descendant of fully evolved andean men, or from people of the amazonas, or from the aymaras, or from the mysterious race that conquedered like 6 countries in like 100 years called the incas. I am confused.

[@warrendourond7236]

@@onlygamesthatdeserverecord The more I learn about Peru the more I believe these distinct cultures you name are not so distinct. They all used images of the fanged/two staff god, and the Inca cross/Chakana. They all had big Chicha drinking festivals. They all believed in reciprocity, Ryme’. They all had access to goods from all over Peru. And they all forced part of the population they just conquered to immigrate else where. Peruvian families have been scattered through all the climatic regions of Peru for thousands of years, right up until modern times. My wife has family everywhere in Peru. It was this connection between far away parts of Peru that allowed these cultures to thrive. Of course variations evolved in certain regions throughout all that time. However it’s like China or Greece or India or any old civilization hot spot. The Spartans and Athenians and Mycenaeans were all different, but they were all Greeks, even before a Macedonian named Alexander conquered them all. Just like all Peruvian cultures were Peruvian, long before Pachacuti conquered them all under the Inca. So…. In short…. All precolonial Peruvian cultures are ancestral to all indigenous Peruvians. There are also many groups from other countries, that have arrived since colonization.

[@jacobrosewater8811]

Could you do a video on the Mississippian Civilization. More specifically, on the way trade was conducted during the period in North America. I'm a high school student but I did a program at Columbia over the summer and therefore had access to their recourses. I was doing some research on my own on the topic and even though I gave up after a few days of wasting time looking through books in the library, it did seem like the trade routes spanned the entirety of central north america.

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you! And yes, the Mississippians are on my long list of topics. I'm still unsure of when I'll get to them though. I'd like to be able to hit some of the sites in person to get footage. But I'll definitely talk about their trade across North America. Ancient trade routes are really fascinating to read about and I don't think many people realize the incredible extent of them. Until then, there will be a lot of other great topics keeping me busy!

[@AncientAmericas]

@Wolly Wollinger it will happen eventually.

[@yaddahaysmarmalite4059]

it also ought to be remember too that up to the time of this civilization's beginning, humans hadn't been in that geographical area for nearly as long as humans had been in the "classical" cradle of civilization in the fertile crescent. The relative brevity of time humans had been in the coastal/mountainous area of Peru underscores the rapidity of their development of a sophisticated culture, architecture and agriculture.

[@AncientAmericas]

Well said!

[@poopdtoilette6182]

And, without the help of interchange from other cradles of civilization

[@coasterfun8446]

I just discovered this channel, thank you so much for this. Whenever it comes to the pre European Americas, nearly every good video is about the Aztec, Maya, or Inca. It’s refreshing to find a good video on Norte Chico. I don’t know what else you plan on covering, but I’d love some videos about the Iroquois at some point, there’s not enough about them on KZbin. Same with the Tarascan’s, who are constantly overshadowed by their Aztec neighbours

[@AncientAmericas]

Oh yes! I've got both of them on my list. Not sure when I'll be covering them but they will get their due. Thank you for your kind words!

[@thefisherking78]

17:22 "Screw this town, we're out!... But before we go, fetch me the black paint"

[@celdur4635]

Maybe the final straw was a plague.

[@JeremiahKlarman]

*Norte Chico!!*🎶🎶🎶

[@Lucius1958]

Archaeologists are working diligently to find its related civilizations: the Norte Groucho, the Norte Harpo, and the Norte Zeppo. (Apparently, the Norte Gummo never built any cities themselves; they just sold the real estate to the others)...😉

[@caltori]

Bill Wurtz approves this message.

[@unknown_pattern5300]

Astounding work. There's something almost magical learning about ancient civilizations and how people used to live. Looking forward to learning more from you in the future!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you for the kind words! More is coming.

[@aleksandrakaczmarska]

This is exactly the kind of channel I've been looking for. Binging all your videos and can't wait for more. Thank you so much and keep up the good work!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@jesusberrocal2556]

Claro pe aleksandra

[@kitchentroll5868]

I am late to discover your videos, but I am impressed. One item your research may not have made clear to you is that the Caral-Supe civilization (Norte Chico) is contemporaneous with the Holocene wet phase. The Holocene wet phase gets most of its press from the African humid period, but at the same time there was markedly higher global rain fall in regions that are now some of the driest places on Earth. This period also marks the melting of the last vestiges of the peak glaciation, which swelled rivers and streams for a length of time that is difficult to nail down precisely. As this water entered the ocean, vast amounts of formerly exposed and likely inhabited areas of the continental shelf caused a retreat from low-lying areas. In some places, the sea encroachment came so suddenly that some populations were isolated and likely vanish from the historical record, such as with Doggerland. These details have long been excluded from the thinking in archaeological circles and this omission has long hindered our understanding of the prehistory of places like the Atacama Desert, the Sahara, and the Early Neolithic Mediterranean. In coming years, I suspect that, like Doggerland has been slowly gained acceptance in academe, a better understanding of the Holocene wet phase will reshape out understanding of the remote past of Andean civilizations.

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you! The Holocene wet phase ended just as Caral was getting started so if it did impact them, it was brief but it is interesting to consider.

[@alexcollins71090]

Immediately subscribed! Looking forward to going through your work and seeing new videos. Thank you for doing these - This part of our human history is not talked about enough where I'm from and I'm eager to learn something!

[@AncientAmericas]

Welcome aboard!

[@andresamplonius315]

Hace pocos años se han realizado importantes descubrimientos en el extremo norte del Perú y sureste del Ecuador, lo que por los valles en que se asienta, se denomina cultura Chinchipe-Mayo-Marañon. Ésta es contemporánea de las vecinas cultura Valdivia (costa del Ecuador) y Chavin (Perú). Un hallazgo interesante es que se hallaron pruebas de la domesticación del cacao lo cual retrotae ésta a 4500 años atrás, ésto es 1,500 antes que en Mesoamérica, con la cultura Olmeca. Sería importante que realizaran un vídeo acerca de esta nueva cultura

[@AncientAmericas]

Una tema interesante! Gracias!

[@BraveHear0162]

En realidad los restos de Cacao datan de 5300 años de antigüedad, ya sabe que el Cacao fue domesticado en Sudamérica. No es inverosímil decir que la civilización salió de Sudamérica hacia otros lugares del continente, habían rutas comerciales que llegaba hasta el Mexico actual.

[@waipalisrevenge3707]

I totally agree with you! The history of ancient America is so underrated in my book. Keep up the good work

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@mrniceguy7168]

American civilizations in Mexico and the Andes have serious continuity - I suppose the isolation can do that.

[@chrisr6142]

Makes you appreciate their incredible genius and brilliance even more too. Everything they had was independently invented. Agriculture, architecture, engineering techniques, mathematical and calendric/astronomy, philosophies, books, etc. No other civilizations can say the same. Literally, no others.

[@honeysucklecat]

I’m so glad I visited Peru. And I want to go back! Nice people there.

[@AncientAmericas]

I'd love to visit Peru myself!

[@NeuenschwanderPride]

Hi there. I’m Fernando Neuenschwander grandson of Peruvian Explorer Dr. Carlos Neuenschwander. Great video! I would like to discuss indirect contact with Central America with you. Cheers!

[@AncientAmericas]

Nice to me you! Shoot me a message.

[@jesusberrocal2556]

De verdad o nos estas hueveando

[@user-py5wc6np4n]

This was awesome! I hope you do more from this region.

[@AncientAmericas]

That's the plan!

[@pablomodesto9575]

I visited these sites in 2007. So cool to revisit here. Thank you.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

Thank you. I am also so glad that some of the comments contribute to more knowledge!

[@ReverMan]

You've gain yourself another subscriber

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you and welcome aboard!

[@yehoshuadalven]

One more...

[@someguy8732]

I've been looking for videos on this civilization for a while. Great work, keep it up!

[@grovermartin6874]

It is such a joy to watch and listen to your videos. Your presentation is well structured, speaks to many possibilities in terms of current excavations and interpretations, presents nuances of understanding, and opens avenues for our further investigations. Your language is clear and terms correctly pronounced, mellifluous, even. What mastery! Thank you!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you. I'd hold the praise on my pronunciation. There are plenty of other videos where I whiff on it.

[@nicolewildman8976]

I can't seem to stop watching your videos. I've been going from one to the next and I'm learning so much. They are very enjoyable to watch. I'm looking forward to watching the next one. Great work!!!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you! Im glad you're enjoying them!

[@jkosch]

Just a little thing to add: most popular science media representations (documentaries, articles in maganzines like "our" ersion of National Geographic etc.) in German also use Caral/Caral civilization instead of Norte Chico (whereas for example Sicán/Lambayeque culture are used with similar frequency).

[@sanexpreso2944]

Something surprising is that not only in South America is the first civilization of America, but also there in Chile is the oldest human settlement so far in America, it is called Monte Verde and dates from 14,000 years ago, this reinforces the theory that humans could have arrived from the Pacific

[@katherinereece]

Thank you so much for this. The Caral-Supe area is rich and there's so much to cover there. I've been fascinated with the site since the news broke about it. I have two copies of an old book, Life, Land and Water in Ancient Peru by Kosok, he visited these sites briefly after seeing them on overhead photographs.

[@fredcrenek4875]

Very informative. I went to Caral in 2009 and found the site spiritually moving. I hope to return and visit other sites in the area. I also went to Machu Picchu and it was impressive but Caral was the highlight of my visit to Peru. It is a challenge to get to due to its location but well worth it.

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you! I hope to visit Caral someday as well.

[@garygoodacre7850]

Thanks for the video - very informative and very factual! Prof Edwin Barnhart (Lost Worlds of South America - Great Courses series) refers to the staff-bearing god as the fanged deity. He traces it back to the Amazon and also points out that there are references in the Norte Chico art to monkeys, jaguars and other jungle animals that didn't live in the area. I can't lay out his full argument but it is interesting. It also points to the possibility that there was much more interaction and trade between regions than we have discovered or could imagine. With the discoveries of human settlements and activity in the Amazon region in the past few years, this does become more of a possibility.

[@AncientAmericas]

Yes, I'm very familiar with Dr. Barnhart's work with the Great Courses. It's real good. By the way, if you like his content, he does a podcast called Archaeo Ed thats also on KZbin. Those early Andean cultures did have contact with the Amazon and as time goes on, it becomes even clearer. When you get to Chavin culture, it's real obvious. He does make the argument that the fanged deity is an Amazonian import and that it was a single god worshipped by all subsequent Andean cultures. That last point I personally am very skeptical of but he does point out common iconography so its not entirely unfounded.

[@garygoodacre7850]

At least the idea of the fanged deity makes some sense. I have the Lost Worlds series as an audio book and haven’t had time to check it out very thoroughly. He’s done some very good archeological work so he’s not just pulling it out of thin air and he’s not writing books to make money off the idea. He’s put it out there for consideration and debate. It’s better than “the aliens built everything!” theories which seem to be everywhere.

[@AncientAmericas]

@@garygoodacre7850 oh yes, I completely agree. Its not a theory without merit and it certainly adds constructive discussion. It's just a theory I personally don't subscribe to. I love his work. Have you listened to his other great courses stuff? His finest is his Mesoamerican course.

[@garygoodacre7850]

@@AncientAmericas Yes I've listened to his other Great Courses series on Mesoamerica and really enjoyed that. I hope that they do an update on that series soon because there have been some interesting discoveries since it came out. It would also be interesting to hear what he has to say about the Lost City of the Monkey God in Honduras (??). He's a good source and has been my starting point for a lot of reading and research.

[@TakittyLove]

@@garygoodacre7850 yeah! It's the same with "The Lines of Nasca", one of the most famous animals drawn in Nasca dessert is The Monkey and it knows there aren't monkeys in desserts. The had to be brought from other regions.

[@MemoryPallace]

Love the channel bro !

[@AncientAmericas]

Love the comment bro!

[@nightdreamer0000]

Thanks for this video! This is the first channel in English that I've found to comprehensively (yet concisely) cover Caral💖

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@franciscomontoya92]

Peruvian here. Thanks for this.

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@muhammadsfori6841]

Thank you for this informative video about an exciting ancient culture.

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@benderrodriguez142]

Recently found this channel, very good content. Hope the channel explodes

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you! Quite a compliment from the galaxy famous Bender Rodriguez!

[@rachaeldoty6957]

I am a documentary-aholic and I am so happy to have run across your channel. Smart. Funny. So interesting and educational Thank you!!!

[@AncientAmericas]

This is now the greatest comment I have ever received because no one has ever appreciated my dad-joke humor. Thank you my good viewer!

[@teywn]

Staff god looks super cute in its early depiction. Whoever drew that had a great art style

[@jamesmcelwain342]

12:50 they didn’t have to go so hard designing this guy he’s too cute

[@giggletitty]

Fantastic! Thank you for posting this!

[@AncientAmericas]

You're very welcome! Check out my other episodes of you haven't already!

[@giggletitty]

@@AncientAmericas will do!! I'm looking forward to the upcoming video about the Andean "Staff God" that you mentioned... I'd never seen the picture from the gourd before, but do you think the ears and teeth could also resemble a feline deity?!?!

[@AncientAmericas]

That episode will happen but it's probably a few episodes away. I don't like to stay in one region of the Americas for too long. And yes, the features are feline (in my amateur opinion.) Feline features show up a lot in Andean iconography so we'll see more of them in the future.

[@faithnoelle5]

How are there not more views? Great video

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you! Hopefully the views will come. Just gotta be patient.

[@bcast9978]

Once you get into the later periods with pottery you begin seeing some pretty naughty ceramics.

[@AncientAmericas]

Those Moche were a pretty amorous bunch.

[@SpazzyMcGee1337]

Civilization without pottery is not a surprise to me. I play civilization games. They obviously focused on mining and animal husbandry.

[@AncientAmericas]

As a civilization fan, I approve of this.

[@virginia3168]

I appreciate the parallel of the old world and the "new world".

[@pedrovelizarenas3635]

Hi! Im from Peru and interested in these topics as well. It is very known nowadays that Caral is the oldest civilization of the Americas (for the moment), however, recent discoveries in the Casma Valley dated one of the sites to 3700 BC. Although there are places that were buid and ocuupied during the formative period in the sechin valley, there are also large structures even older than caral supe, questioning archaeologists again if the casma - sechin culture was, in fact, the oldest civilization in america... there is even in one of the walls of the sites of sechin bajo the image of a god dated between 3700 - 3500 BC

[@AncientAmericas]

The Casma valley is an incredible archaeological place and there are been so many amazing discoveries there. I've been wanting to do an episode on but haven't had the chance yet. Someday, I'll get around to it!

[@pedrovelizarenas3635]

@@AncientAmericas great! also, another fact of the place, is the formulation of a theory related to the mayan popol vuh story of creation, which is portraited in the walls of the Cerro Sechin temple

[@qus.9617]

Amazing KZbin channel

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@omegaglitch13]

Just found this channel. Love it!!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@bebeconor]

Great video! Clear and informative! You've gained a subscriber :)

[@AncientAmericas]

Thanks! Glad to have you aboard!

[@RichardASalisbury1]

Great presentation! Thanks. I've subscribed and am eager to see more.

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@pentelegomenon1175]

As someone mildly obsessed with the Inca, I don't think many people will deny that they were highly derivative of what came before them. I'd also argue that this is true of every civilization, but sometimes this fact is less obvious.

[@AncientAmericas]

Agreed. No culture exists in a vacuum. What I think not everyone appreciates is how far back those antecedents go.

[@heatherwillis-kershner1973]

Thank you soo much for this channel, so glad youtube led me here!!

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you! I am glad you found it!

[@eatenbythedistance4178]

It isn’t appreciate it more often because there are people who are very ethnocentric to the European roots.

[@LourdVicious]

Two thumbs up. Great content.

[@RutraNickers]

finally youtube suggested me something awesome and god damn, you deserve a lot more subs and views. Please keep up with this great work

[@AncientAmericas]

Why thank you!

[@forestdweller5581]

"Oldest known civilization" would be a better term. There is no telling what remains hidden underneath the Forest. We didn't even know about the enormous Amazon Civilization until the recent development of Lidar research over the past years. That would not have come out of nowhere and must have had it's predecessors...would make a great video topic for you :)

[@lynnmitzy1643]

Binge watching your videos, enjoying them immensely. thanking the algorithms for leading me here. 👍🎉

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@Sweet4chokoreeto]

In Chile we don't know much about it. I guess is purposely neglected because often we don't learn ANYTHING about Peruvians. Chile and Peru are neighbor countries but also there's a strong rejection for anything great that comes from there. There's always tension since the Pacific's war, the history books of the three countries involved are really different. But with any new metro station in Santiago, more and more evidence of an official Inca settlement below actual Santiago goes into the light. Spaniards just built on top of it. On top of the sun temple and the Inca Road.

[@kidmohair8151]

Thank you for continuing to put these up! They are quite illuminating, for those with open minds

[@birgaripadam7112]

I love this channel more and more I m glad I found this channel

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@birgaripadam7112]

@@AncientAmericas I m thankful to you

[@jonathansmith3449]

Really well done...stuffed with pertinent info and a 4K attitude about the scale and size of occupied regions

[@AncientAmericas]

Thanks!

[@etchalaco9971]

Caral also has the first monolith, the first communal use of coca, hydraulic engineering, urbanism, amphitheater, etc.

[@atlasaltera]

I too am happy to have found this channel. It would be awesome if you did something on the Nanchoc/Nanchuq Valley!

[@MARGATEorcMAULER]

Love the topic and thoroughly enjoy the style

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@lightbeingform]

I want to visit that site (respectfully and carefully)! How cool is that

[@leadershipvids]

thank you for this wonderful expose

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@elforeigner3260]

We are people of the water. We thrive like moss in wet crevices.

[@ApexLight7]

It makes you wonder what else is buried there in the dessert

[@Eevcee]

Any possibility you could cover the history of the Tarascans? It feels like there’s very little information about them, but they were the only Mesoamerican society that used metallurgy similar to artifacts found in Ecuador. I’m fascinated by the idea of maritime trade between Mesoamerica and South America.

[@AncientAmericas]

Worry not, it's on the to-do list. Not sure when I'll get around to doing it though.

[@Eevcee]

@@AncientAmericas thanks! Looking forward to it!

[@davidsharpness9990]

Chincha Culure were the seafarers...

[@alexismoreau2370]

Greetings from france thank you for your videos !

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@SpazzyMcGee1337]

I'm trying to understand what is going through the head of a land developer looking at what obviously is ruins of some kind that could not have served any purpose in the modern day and is therefore ancient, and saying to themselves "yeah, I should bulldoze this".

[@AncientAmericas]

Spazzy, I wish I could give you an answer. It baffles me just as much.

[@EmirRadkevich]

Hi. There is an article published a year ago by Ruth Shady lab saying that maze might had been an abundant crop in Aspero-Caral region (Marco Y et al, 2023, Scientific Reports).

[@AncientAmericas]

Ooo! I didn't see that. That is very interesting!

[@RedRaven326]

Excellent overview; I learned a lot in 20 minutes!

[@AncientAmericas]

There is much to be learned!

[@makinapacal]

Thank you for this video. I very much liked the ending. Especially since I am very tired of diffusionistic arguments, that all too often boil down too, the natives couldn't possibly have done X. Why? Well because they are natives?! In my view the discovery of coastal Pre-Columbian very early civilization on the Peruvian coast, with sites dating back to even before 3000 B.C.E., should put an end to notions, by some, that civilization was brought to the Americas from abroad. This does leave room for contact within the Americas and possible, although there exists next to no evidence for it, occasional influence from the Old World on New World Civilizations, but the building blocks of Civilization were created by the natives themselves not imported in by Culture Bearers or God forbid that tired trope of "White Gods". What do you think of the whole Diffusion debate in how it relates to the New World Civilizations?

[@garygoodacre7850]

Prof Edwin Barnhart in the Great Lecture Series says that there is strong evidence in Western Mexico (Jalisco, Nayarit & Colima) for migration and exchange between Pre-Columbian civilizations. In Western Mexico shaft tombs were used for burials which is unique in Mexico and they also buried mummies in a way similar to Paracas in Peru. Some have speculated that this is a connection to South American practices. There also seems to have been very little contact between other Mexican civilizations with West Mexico. Pottery styles from West Mexican civilization is similar to pottery found in Ecuador and Peru. Stirrup vessels have also been found. This was also the only region of Mexico to develop metallurgy (copper) well before other Mexican civilizations did. Phil Weigand did decades of research in the area. Very interesting stuff and could point to a South American "colony" in Western Mexico that gradually evolved into the Purépheca (Tarascans) later.

[@raymondwolken7975]

Love the program and thank you for explaining and showing the artifacts. My question to you wasn’t there a Valdivian culture pre ceramic. I believe they were north coast Peru.

[@AncientAmericas]

I'd need to check but I believe that they didn't have pottery. We'll get to them in a later episode.

[@raymondwolken7975]

@@AncientAmericas the reason I asked is I collected a Valdivian fertility figure some years back and it claimed that the culture had thousands of these figures. They seem to be made of baked clay and are generally tinted a reddish brown color.

[@AncientAmericas]

@@raymondwolken7975 I'd need to check. I haven't researched the culture very much.

[@salinagrrrl69]

They found fish scales everywhere. Seafood restaurants AMOK .

[@AncientAmericas]

Who doesn't love seafood?

[@alexo1226]

Thank you .

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@Simonjose7258]

At the current time, Ruth Shady the archeologists who discovered and began excavations at Caral-Supe cannot visit the site due to death threats to her family and colleagues by Capitalist Speculators who are squatting in the area and claiming land as their own. Apparently they plan to sell the land to Hoteliers and Real Estate developers. Around the site of course. They actually killed her dogs at her home in the City Centre. It's sad.

[@AncientAmericas]

Yeah, I've been keeping up with those developments. It's a real shame.

[@CurriedBat]

Oh I love how you described those deserts in Peru. I have a scene I'm writing of a conquistador seeing it for the first time, so it is appreciated.

[@AncientAmericas]

Glad I could help!

[@etchalaco9971]

Peru is the first civilization of the Americas

[@nucleargandhi2709]

As it turns out, you can research all the way to Fertilizer on the tech tree before researching Pottery.

[@AncientAmericas]

Well if you're gonna wonder spam you sometimes gotta save that stuff for later.

[@salinagrrrl69]

I saw somewhere a docu I'd seen b4 of the 'stepped pyramid' claming it the oldest stone structure anywhere. Then at the docu's end was an addendum l'd not seen b4 that stated the discovered Caral structures knocked off the stepped pyramid's title. Since then (mid 1990s) Göbeklitepe knocked off Caral...l would guess.

[@AncientAmericas]

That sounds about right. Caral is real old but there's definitely older stuff. Heck, there's supposedly older stuff in South America as well that's still being investigated, so I'm sure the picture will change as research gets published. Also, the title of "oldest" has been getting pushed further and further back over the past few decades as archaeologists dig deeper and deeper so this is part of a wider trend. You have to understand that when archaeologists think they know what's the "oldest", they typically don't dig any deeper than that layer and so that kind of bias reinforces the present interpretation. I hope that people consider this when they excavate. Who knows what they'll find?

[@reyhane8633]

its really brilliant thanksss

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@debbralehrman5957]

Thank you👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@lucianobenzaquen5944]

It was very evident what would happen later, Peru has the first civilization of the Americas, and later the largest empire in all of pre-Columbian America... THE INCA... The question is, why was this territory so blessed? It is the geographical location? the ancient Peruvians still have a lot to tell the world, recently I saw some famous pyramids of Paratoari in the enormous Peruvian jungle and that the government hides information... that more ancient civilizations are hidden in that territory.

[@AncientAmericas]

That's the million dollar question. Like a lot of other cradles of civilization, you have a lot of river valleys that make agriculture easy.

[@postictal7846]

The staff God has a Mad Magazine Spy vs Spy look and, the ball court resembles a Kiva. Thanks for the opportunity to learn about these people.

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@TheBullethead]

Yup, this area is definitely under-appreciated. And the later Andean civilizations were arguably the most advanced in all the Americas, all founded on these roots. But I must question your assertion that cotton is easier to make into textiles than alternatives. If this was so, then why was the cotton gin such a big thing for the nascent Industrial Revolutuion? It's damn labor-intensive to pick the seeds out of bolls by hand and then spin the very short cotton fibers into thread. Wool is easier because no seeds, even though the fibers are of comparably short length. I personally find it much easier and faster to make thread by hand-rolling easily obtained and MUCH longer yucca fibers, where you have no seeds to deal with and don't have to splice nearly so often. Of course, cotton and wool are the superior fibers in terms of finished textiles because we still wear them today and not yucca or something else. But, AFAIK, cotton couldn't have been the cash crop it was in the 1800s without the gin. But OTOH, back in the day, the market was much smaller so maybe doing it all by hand was sufficient to meet the demand of that time and place.

[@AncientAmericas]

There's an article in my bibliography that deals specifically with that. I'd advise you to read it for more info.

[@TheBullethead]

@@AncientAmericas Which one? None seem to mention cotton in their titles :) And my Spanish is not so great if it's one of those ;)

[@AMVETSWA]

Great presentation Thank you..

[@AncientAmericas]

You're welcome!

[@sizanogreen9900]

great stuff! you have truly earned my sub:)

[@AncientAmericas]

Thank you!

[@matthewsierleja2193]

I dig it

[@AncientAmericas]

Awesome!

[@ChrissieBear]

Could you do a miniature video about the "Skraelings" that the Greenlanders encountered in Canada? Who they might've been and what evidence we have of their existence and customs?

[@AncientAmericas]

Yes, I do want to make a video on that. I haven't the foggiest idea when it will get done but it's on my list.

[@stevend2877]

Why do some people say that the Norte Chico civilization is began around 4000 BC?

[@sysfx]

A civilization with vegetal fiber fishing nets is consistent with the development of Khupis. Nice! Predating ceramic poses practical problems, though: how did they transport small quantities of liquid? How did they make soup? Perhaps they impermeabilized tightly woven cotton baskets with bees' wax, fish glue, or a vegetal resin. Maybe they used seal or camelid leather bags, or carved stone pans. (Is there evidence of any of this? Have their vegetal fiber baskets, fishing nets and Khupis been checked for traces of impermeabilizing materials? Were leather artifacts or carved stone found predating ceramics?) For cooking and transporting liquids, they could have tried to line their baskets with the same mortar at use in their pyramids. (Could "fiber reinforced mortar" matching their fiber baskets and mortar hold water? Could their mortar dry to become ceramic? Under what conditions? Next, they would realize that even low quality woven baskets holds water once reinforced with mortar. Eventually, the fiber basket would be abandoned, and they would mold the mortar directly. Ceramics.

[@afrz4454]

I listened somewhere about the ocean currents that the early Polynesian explorers used may have led to Peru. Also there was an article at life sciences 3 weeks ago by Laura Geggel (I don’t know how compelling it is)but also suggests that “Indigenous South Americans share DNA with Indigenous people in Oceana.” Just as you said I find it an odd place for such an early civilization to settle, also they have found some Polynesian boats with dried potatoes as the ancient people of Peru did.

[@AncientAmericas]

Yes, I've read that as well. I actually want to do an episode on it at some point because there's a bit of misunderstanding about the topic but it is very fascinating!

[@afrz4454]

@@AncientAmericasyeah I heard fragments here and there and I find it really fascinating I am sure my mind is just piecing it together... running wild, I can’t wait to hear about it, it would be indeed a hell of a topic! I really like how you build your episodes you are very clear and I like that you share that there are many perspectives of what you are talking about.

[@mark2406]

I'm hoping to travel here later this year, so fascinating I'm surprised how little we know about these people still, can't wait to see what the future will hold

[@AncientAmericas]

I'd advise visiting sooner rather than later because the museum at the site is closing this year for renovations.

[@mark2406]

@@AncientAmericas Thanks for the heads up, keep up the great work!

[@AncientAmericas]

@@mark2406 oh wait, I'm so sorry! I though this was a comment on my Cahokia video. Disregard my previous reply. The museum at caral is not being renovated as far as I know.

[@mark2406]

@@AncientAmericas Haha no worries, that video was great too!

[@Michael-kd1ho]

It's really not surprising to learn khipu is a much older element of Andean civilisation, and it wasn't first developed by the Incas. If you want to have a complex society of the kind that builds monuments like Caral-Supe, you need a way to keep records. From ancient Sumeria, to Egypt, IVC/Harrapan or China - and later the Maya - developed writing at about this time that society was starting to become more centralised and complex. The Andeans just did it with diffrent tools, achieving the same result. I actually went to Caral when i was backpacking in Peru a while back. An amazing site.

[@AncientAmericas]

We actually go into that khipu a lot more in the khipu episode. There's some debate about whether or not the Caral khipu is actually a khipu.

[@Michael-kd1ho]

@@AncientAmericas Yes, i saw the episode. It would make sense that no Caral khipus survived, it's been a very long time and they are made of organic materials after all, even if the dry Peruvian coast is a good enviroment for preservation.