How Good Was Sam Burgess in Rugby Union Actually?

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[@thecuttingsark5094]

Mismanaged, scapegoated and generally treated like s#!*. Was played for club at 6 but still held his own at international centre. England were ahead in the game Vs Wales at the RWC until he came off. Good on him for seeing sense and going back to League.

[@bedtimewithben5802]

100%

[@guillaumehammersley2672]

Yes - he also tried it in too short a period though. Less than 2 years wasn't enough to be introduced to the pro game and also justify his selection. He ended up being a real coaching gamble, which is only a good look if it works. Hopefully him and RTS are lessons learned for any other future converts!

[@99RML]

@@guillaumehammersley2672 wasn't RTS a bit unlucky with injuries in his second season in union? Or was he just impatient at not becoming a starter for the ABs straight away? He didn't have an instant impact but could have become a top union player if he'd stuck at it, especially as he played it growing up IIRC

[@guillaumehammersley2672]

@@99RML Injuries don’t help! But it’s not unlikely to be an obstacle so all the more reason to allow more time. Even before he moved, I couldn’t see him doing it in his timeframe. In earlier pro union days sure - but union athletes aren’t particularly less adept than RL athletes, certainly compared to 20+ years ago anyway. What I don’t know is whether the timing was an active choice in either case, or whether their hand was forced with contractual obligations..

[@guillaumehammersley2672]

@JimboPrague Roger Tuivasa-Sheck

[@MrBoboiscool]

Forced to play multiple roles meaning he could never get to grips with any. Raw material was amazing, give him another year he would be a star.

[@mattmasksforehead620]

Had the potential to be a fantastic 6. Played a Premiership final there and looked great. The only thing he didn't have was an ability in the lineout, but he was a 6'6" super-athlete, he definitely could have learned to jump given time. He always looked lost at 12 though, yes he'd get the occasional big hit but his positioning and his awareness of space on attack were miles off. Bath realised it halfway through the season but then England were so desperate for a Tuilagi stand-in that they picked him there despite his obvious limitations.

[@Shendersonsports3003]

You’ve hit the nail on the head! Me and my dad rated him highly as a 6. He had the work rate and also the fitness to graft out a good performance every game. However, he was unfortunately stuck at 12 because the men upstairs only wanted to see him make his signature big hits. All that they cared about was out-muscling rugby league and converting their followers into union fans. A career full of potential was killed before it even started. Something that the Wallabies are even worse offenders of doing

[@robertaskew3677]

You made the connection of him playing at 6 for club yet international played 12 hardly his fault!

[@zephanish]

Felt he was mismanaged

[@schnozz87]

Massively - Mike Ford being his usual toxic self and trying to manipulate things behind the scenes led to us never seeing how good Sam would've been. And I genuinely believe he could've been brilliant.

[@mattg5878]

Everything about it was mismanaged. Bath watched some of their existing back row move to France cause they weren’t happy that Sam just came in from nowhere and took their place

[@tomhall3143]

Ruined by the typical toxic union brigade, England needed him and we threw him under the bus. We were dominating wales until he went off.

[@martinwilson2660]

One of the finest, toughest RL players of recent eras. Incredibly well respected in the NRL and will go down as one of the games all time greats. The 2014 NRL Grand Final heroics will live long in Aussie folklore.

[@samacw]

He got blamed for things which weren't his fault and was better than Henry Paul, Andy Farrell or Vainokolo for England. The trouble is the hype was huge and he wasn't the same sort of player as some of the most successful converts like Jason Robinson.

[@extremesportsify]

The excitement around him coming was immense it was like he was a god send… and you can’t live up to that after such little time

[@jonnybaynham1689]

A way better 6 than a 12. He hit hard and knocked the best ball carriers backwards. Also a strong carrier himself but without the pressure of a backline move, more as an extra gainline option Could have been a brilliant 6. Just thrown into everything too soon

[@nikolakozhuharov1042]

I appreciate the amount of RWC2015 clips you included. And I'm not talking about those from the Fiji game.

[@freddienoble9587]

Tom Homer is the definition of a 'streets won't forget' player. Baller back in the day

[@goldentidbit9611]

Compare how England handled Sam Burgess' union transition to how NZ handled Sonny Bill's. And NZ needed a Sonny Bill a lot less than England needed a Burgess...

[@99RML]

That partly explains what happened though...England had a home RWC, Burgess was a big name convert, and our main strike runner in the centres (Tuilagi) was injured like always. Whether it was direct or implicit, I think Lancaster was under some pressure to pick Burgess even though it ended up being too early and in the wrong position. Given another year and allowed to bed in at 6 he could have been immense in union...such a waste.

[@goldentidbit9611]

@@99RML The similarities are there then. Home world cups, injuries to key players in the backs, etc. I'd have taken a prime Sonny Bill over a prime Burgess, but still, feels like NZRU were just way better organised internally than RFU

[@vaovao1665]

Came into union at the wrong time, just on the cusp of Englands home World Cup. Massive pressure on both player and coaches to get the guy test match ready, testing him out at different positions during a prem season, then just farting him into the squad when other players could have taken his place in either position. If he came into union on a different year and maybe got international experience on a summer tour, who knows?

[@strawberrykicker2]

Agreed the timing was pretty bad, switched codes less than a year before the rwc. England could have just not picked him but that was always unlikely

[@goldentidbit9611]

NZ had the same with bringing Sonny Bill in the season before their home world cup, and they were under a lot more pressure to win than England. That being said, Sonny Bill had 2 years at Toulon to "get the league out of his system" before he was seriously considered as an All Black

[@99RML]

NZ also had one of the best centre combinations of all time in their starting XV so SBW was mostly used for impact off the bench.

[@strawberrykicker2]

@goldentidbit9611 SBW had moved to union in 2008 though, he just went to France first so not really the same thing, he was much .ore experienced in union

[@dlsNi]

I reckon he would’ve gone ok under Eddie Jones’ system as well. Felt like he was just hounded out of union before he really found his feet

[@luketinklin1062]

He played really well for Bath in the back row but England played him at centre…

[@lojpfeiop9576]

Good enough to have youtube compilations about him. Not good enough to bring a consistent contribution to his team at international level.

[@schnozz87]

Ultimate wasted potential, chances of success ruined by idiotic and childish coaching actions. He's lauded as a legend in league for a reason, look how well he shut down Jamie Roberts in the world cup, who was regarded as one of the best gainline centres in the world.

[@shamenbilly]

From what I remember he was playing in the centre for England and thats where they wanted him to play but he was played at 6 for club and didn't have enough time to get used to the position for England. Not that I minded here in Ireland, felt for him and Lancaster though.

[@couldabeenanything]

Australian here who had seen a lot of Burgess in the NRL and was shocked when he went across. Was an excellent middle forward in league (so front rower or 13, which is lock in league, but more of a number 8 type), where he was intimidating and a great leader for his club side, as he set a standard to be followed. Figured he could possibly have gone well in Rugby if given some time to find the right spot. Very different games with starkly different requirements and stars in one game don’t always translate to the other. I get that England rushed him in and it seemed at the time he was something of a scapegoat when it all went badly. Really needed another year before that World Cup to find his feet and the right position. If it was going to work, it needed some time.

[@westy8065]

Fair play absolutly love the comments before the 2015 world clash with Wales and what he was going to do to Jamie Roberts!! 😅 wasnt it Burgess that came off and Robert's saw the game out! And ddnt Wales win!!!😂😂😂

[@osianlewis2463]

Was that hit on Roberts high for the time? Most of the gorge is on the chest but his forearm rides up/hits him in the jaw (not worried for Roberts' safety: he's 90% jaw.) Or was that kind of hit where the force rises up a play on back then? Hard to remember TBH. Mad how the game has changed so much in 10 years!

[@shaun30-3-mg9zs]

I remember Sam Burgess on a Tv interview before the England V Wales RWC game and they asked Sam about his opposition player who was Scott Williams and he said Scott ,who.... Sam Burgess was a better league player, union was not his game

[@mariadanielalavia8877]

Lancaster did him dirty by playing him at center (usually a position where you need to have a better understanding of the game since you have to cover the whole midfield, track back and take defensive line decisions) than being a side flanker. He was an awesome ball carrier and flanker. Also the fact that he was put in several positions meant he never got the real feel to play in position for the gig.

[@darthmaul408]

It would have been very interesting to see how he would have developed as a 12 with more time. All the attributes were there.

[@CalB33]

I feel like the long game should have been 2019, given another 4 solid years in one position he could have been fantastic

[@saoirsedeltufo7436]

Wow, the main thing I can think watching this is how often he would be carded under the current laws...

[@robmcrob2091]

Was rushed into the England side too early and in the wrong position. Unfairly cited as a reason for England's shocking 2015 RWC performance. Maybe considering his pay cheque the England management felt some pressure to get him in, who knows? Another season and settling at 6 he would've been great.

[@kaplazma6748]

He wasn’t given the time and was thrown in the deep end Pretty sure he played different positions for both club and Country (correct if wrong) Was made a scapegoat for a bad World Cup but still don’t feel he should’ve gone Maybe he would have been much better 4 years later with training

[@WilliamFrance-v3r]

Hes an interesting case, but dont think its really swayed me. Don't get me wrong as a Quins fan i appreciate his ability, very similar to Sonny Bill, to always be looking for the offload and make it work. But the problem is that was the only skill he had in the game, didnt line break, didnt regularly break tackles and never had a step and gas like Williams did. He played better as a 6 than 12 in the loose. His distribution was not good but not brilliant. Still an enigma, if he was brought into the union game earlier we maybe could've seen some more skills flourish.

[@samacw]

Sonny Bill was also very intimidating and had such a legacy of headshots that people were wary of running at him. Even for that era I always felt he got away with a lot of direct head contact, none of it would be okay now.

[@jonnybaynham1689]

He's not the same as SBW. Some similar shades in physicality but both were world class in league for different reasons. SBW was physical but an offloaded. Slammin Sam was physical but absolutely relentless - carrying and tackling. It's why he makes more sense in the back row than SBW who is silkier in attacking patterns.

[@danielmalachi8793]

Controversial view? I don’t think he was a flop at all: you had Bath playing him as a flanker, but then Lancaster playing him at 13 for England… then, due to our horrendous home RWC, he was scapegoated for stuff that was never his fault. I followed him in league when he was Down Under tearing it up for The Bunnies in the NRL, and he was immense. A proper frontline leader, like James Graham (another great pommie export to the NRL). If he’d have been managed properly, I think he could’ve been as successful a convert as SBW for NZ, but now we’ll never know…

[@EdwardKeen-yq3to]

Class

[@adgg577]

He was a class league player and would have been an immense 6 in my opinion. Unfortunately it was like they just couldn’t wait to get him out there and made a royal balls up of his transition.

[@guillaumehammersley2672]

It was unfair for him to become the scapegoat. But he needed more time to be managed and integrated into the game properly. There's been other league converts in recent years thinking they could break into international rugby in < 2 years.

[@shonunezekiel]

I always got excited when the opposition had the ball and he was lining them up - playing one position for his club and another for his country was always going to be too much to ask for a recent convert, even one as good as Sam Burgess - this was not his choice, and he was unfairly scapegoated for England's poor performances - I wish him the best.

[@simontaylor2525]

Better highlight reel than Slade

[@Nelsonfarmacia]

Very intense

[@Shendersonsports3003]

Sam Burgess would’ve made a world class player if he actually had time to develop his game, instead of being rushed into every set up. But alas, he was used as a scapegoat for England’s half hearted attempt at a World Cup campaign

[@Splotched]

Taller and heavier than Jamie Roberts, he could have been an absolute monster if he was managed properly.

[@conertowle1523]

Could have been an awesome 6! But these highlights show exactly what he brought. Solid in defence, gainline breaker in the carry, could link play well with the pass. Will always feel sorry for him after the World Cup. Way too much emphasis was put on him, when in reality I thought he was good. At the time I don’t think Bath was the right team for him to develop and I stand by that.

[@bedtimewithben5802]

Was good.. people just expected the world

[@andrasszabo1570]

Is there no high tackle rule in league? I noticed he goes quite high on a number of these hits that would be yellow cards nowadays.

[@RatzaChewy]

Did exactly what he was asked of for England in the game vs Wales. Make tackles and make metres. The game went to pot with the subs and poor on field decisions in the 2nd half.

[@rory4016]

all the potential and skill in the world not utilised through mismanagement and politics. what a waste

[@slugwithasthma8980]

It was a good risk to take, he was either gonna burst on to the scene or struggle like he did ... was well worth the gamble I thought

[@YOYOTh1s]

Did they force him into international rugby union too fast? Felt from the outside that the narrative was that he was blamed for England's misfortune in 2015.

[@euanwalters8246]

@@YOYOTh1s The issue was not that he played badly for England in that world cup. It was that his selection had a bad affect on the morale and team spirit of the rest of the squad.

[@99RML]

​@@euanwalters8246yes exactly. He was parachuted in over Luther Burrell who, while not a world-beater, had played well for England for the previous year or so. Showed Lancaster's weakness as a coach to pick Burgess...very much doubt Eddie Jones would have done.

[@phillipspark7255]

Never given a chance, was made a scapegoat in the World Cup, captain’s decision were at fault. Would have been a great, is a great in League.

[@Danimal13]

If only he wasn’t messed around by Mike Ford and George Ford maybe he would have stayed around, had all the makings of a world class 12 but was played at 6 by the guy who wanted to disrupt England so he could get the England job himself, such a shame

[@TheJuanvegas]

Typical media scapegoating of a Northern league convert. Why destroy our own players no matter where they started? Strange how they didn't do it to Vainakolo or Hape despite coming from league but a different country

[@enockowl681]

Sam is a legend ... union treated him disgracefully ... and becouse of that you wont get many more league coning over

[@AJP-kf7wq]

could have been an absolute Rugby Union legend, shame

[@bennevis3692]

People forget he had a very good world cup until he got carded

[@AndrewDavidForde]

@@bennevis3692 he didn’t get carded in any of England’s games!

[@bennevis3692]

@@AndrewDavidForde maybe I was confusing him with Farrel

[@johnboy2562]

​@@AndrewDavidForde Didn't he get yellowed for not retreating 10 metres after a penalty and tackling someone?

[@coventryboy68]

Not very.

[@neilcooper9508]

He was only in it 5 minits

[@kevinbaxter7390]

Think England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 mugged him off ! Was he 12 was he 6 ? He could have been much more.

[@TheCaptain001]

Sam who?

[@GambitXJS]

Didn't live up to the hype. Bit like Andy Farrell. Struggled to find a roll or position to suit his playing style.

[@stoneagepig3768]

Andy Farrell went to union when he was past his prime in league (30/31 years of age if I remember correctly) he had lost any pace and agility he'd had when in his prime in league and I think assumed the slower pace and lower levels of fitness required in union compared to the cardio he had from his years in league would be what he could rely on. If he had gone to union at 25 I'm convinced his reputation as a player within rugby would be entirely different to what is now

[@lamelamelame3]

He was a potential NH-quality 6 if given the right coaching and time, but ended up being a SH-quality 12 (shite)

[@frankmercury2833]

Too slow for a back. Should have been a 6 or 8.

[@jamesmilligan2797]

He was crap & messed up the England team, discussion finished.

[@sirhc8972]

Aye. Finished with you being wrong

[@pokemonbro2225]

He wasn't at all he was misused and rushed too quickly

[@RichardOCallaghan]

He should never have been played as a forward, it was too late to develop the required skills at the professional Rugby Union level having never done so before the switch. He could have been a great 12 / 13.

[@KJB99UTS14]

Definitely 6 all day. Watch his league days . He was loose forward . His job was run hard and hit hard . He was solid in Union despite the changes in position. He should have not been in backs . Union failed him because we asked too much . Being a 6 or 7 and keep his job simple as possible would have been better. Oh well he done him self proud 👏 Disgusting how people treated him. I think something ridiculous that we was only losing Internationally like minutes or less than minute when he was on the felid . Class player and class act .

[@John-hs4cj]

He was a 6 all day long. Potentially a world-class 6, too. Insanely good defence. Could make hard yards in heavy traffic. Great offload. Excelled at anything involving contact and had a supreme engine. England wanted him at centre to replace an injury ridden Manu Tuilagi. Tuilagi also had a poor discipline record and had been banned from rwc2015. They had seen the success of Sonny Bill Williams at centre for New Zealand and got starry-eyed. Can't help but feel like we're forcing a square peg in a round hole a bit. There were better players available in that position, with better ball skills, positional awareness, and more pace. He was still a good 12, but not England national team level. Would have loved to have seen him develop in the back row. We had quite a slow back row at this time, too. His pace would have really added something.

[@mattmasksforehead620]

@@RichardOCallaghan He was sh*t at 12. Didn't have the ball-skills, the pace or the awareness of space to play in the backline. He could look okay in a one-off game given a limited role, but it was never viable long-term. Bath realised it and moved him to 6, and both he and the team looked loads better as a result. England were just behind the curve, because with Manu out they were desperate for a carrier in the centres.

[@RichardOCallaghan]

@@KJB99UTS14 Reply for John and Matt as well. Under no circumstances was he a 6, 7 or 8. He didn't know how to work out of the scrum (particularly in defence), he was not a great rucker and had little knowledge of the lineout. This is not a criticism, I loved him as an RL player, and think that he could have been a really good Union player in the backs, but as a forward, just no. And don't take my word for it, take his "I came to union to try to play at 12, but I ended up playing at six for Bath. I managed to get into the England training squad as a 12, even though I was playing as a flanker for my club. The competition in the back row was really tough and I had no chance of making the team there, but at 12 I had a better shot because there aren’t as many technicalities in the way so you can learn it quicker. At six England wanted a jumping option in the lineouts, an area in which I have no experience.".

[@itistrue101]

in a word... poor

[@euanwalters8246]

You have really scraped the barrell to find these clips.

[@AndrewDavidForde]

Sorry you think that mate - he played 26 games, lots of which were off the bench so was difficult to find the 'complete' highlights, just wanted to demonstrate what he offered in his very little time in Union after being asked by people to make this vid.

[@euanwalters8246]

@@AndrewDavidForde I went to Welford Road to watch him play for Bath against Leicester and he only touched the ball twice in the whole game.

[@goldentidbit9611]

​@@euanwalters8246 Relax dude, if you had a year you couldn't produce a video this good. Andrew Forde is goated

[@jmo8934]

In truth not really much good at all but then he was probably played in the wrong position anyway. He was too slow to play in the back line and had the appearance more of a backrow player.

[@subobuckley9994]

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