Taper verses ball bearings - On Motorcycle Steering Heads

[@johndouglas4527]

Perfectly explained Andy, delbollocks doesn't know his arse from his elbow mate,keep it coming man 👌👌

[@AuMechanic]

My advice for the last few decades based as a mechanic is Ball Race for Road and Track, Taper roller for Off Road. As you mentioned, to maintain precision on the steering head and remove all side play taper roller requires pre-load, ball race does not. And it follows that any resistance to the front self centering has the potential to turn a head shake into a tank slapper which is an issue on road bikes, less so for off road where longevity is a priority due to the loads (impact) the bearings encounter off road.

[@ANDY5]

Some fantastic points here, one of which I really should have emphasized more. The fact that Suzuki put ball bearings in a 300 + kph bike should speak volumes, a point that I have made replying to several comments here. BUT I didn’t even touch on the dirt bike point, for someone who rode dirt bikes from ‘75 to 2014 you think I would consider them a little more. Thanks for sharing, as always, your expert knowledge mate.

[@tassuperkart]

@@ANDY5 It does surprise me that manufacturers dont employ a 45 degree tapered roller on the lower bearing if not both IIRC the vast majority of everyday spec tapered bearings is 30 degrees and can be less. The higher the included taper angle, the more axial load the bearing will deal with which would be a benefit for those guys who tent to spend more time on the back wheel and dropping hard back to the pavement. however supply of the higher included angle bearings may be an issue whereas the ubiquitous old "wheel bearings" can be had anywhere.

[@biscuitbarrel5589]

I agree, cup and cone was good enough for RG500's and mid 80's NSR 500's, adjusted to just zero play. Maybe times and bearings have moved on but taper rollers had to be adjusted with (just) perceivable play, certainly not with any preload. But that was 30 years ago on 30 years ago car front wheels.

[@AuMechanic]

If you grab a fork leg in the triple clamps as leverage and give it a push and pull each way to check the slack of the head you will likely discover that the taper rollers do require a small amount of pre-load compared to cup and ball to get all the slack out at the steering head. And if you then put a spring gauge on the bar and measure the force to turn the bars on both you should find that the taper rollers requires more effort to turn with all slack adjusted out as above.

[@thomasphilyaw8593]

Great video Andy and excellent explanation. Learned something new about bearing applications.

[@minerma]

Taper bearing rollers also don't go rolling across the garage never to be seen again like ball bearings do, just saying for a friend. Good explanation Andy,

[@waynegoldpig2220]

Caged balls don't roll all over the floor.

[@neilhuband995]

No, it's called the basket not the cage. I learned all about it from DBG (Defo Bullshit Garbage)

[@JustClassics]

I always find my balls, when the time comes for garage floor resurfacing moving cupboards etc...., said at a time when bike project of yonder is long, long forgotten. Also, you break the bikes neck to set the balls free , and sometimes the balls repay the favour by breaking your neck in turn!

[@alexwotherspoon5630]

Noice...... I do like how you explain things and give a fair and balanced view 😉👍

[@nicolasandersen7574]

I prefer the tapering bearings they last longer if you wheelie a lot

[@neilhuband995]

You think they're wheelie good yeah? :)

[@evildogbilly]

Yet another good explanation Andy

[@AfricaTwin-Stuff]

Arrrr. So therapeutic to listen to a properly argued and explained topic. But because I’m an idiot I don’t know if you were telling me lies or the truth - this is possibly why My Boy has such a following. There are so many of us out there and so few of you! Sigh....

[@ANDY5]

As the text at the beginning suggests, discretion and research are encouraged.

[@christopherhodge7808]

That's a good explanation, just shows even engineers arrive at different solutions ( Suzuki and Yamaha).

[@skyonet24]

What is the best for gixxer 150 the knucle bearing or ball race bearing? thank you.

[@kevinstreet5709]

Good explanation, thanks hope all is well

[@stevesrepairs3815]

Thanks Andy, very informative and well explained from a professional engineer, all the best mate. Stevie

[@neilhuband995]

It's all about axial loads and radial loads. Ball bearings are great for taking large radial loads but not so good at taking axial loads. Deep grove ball bearings are great at taking big radial loads and they're ok for light axial loads. Taper roller bearings are excellent at taking large axial loads and ok at radial loads. Both ways you see bike manufacturers doing steering bearings are fine. If I were designing a bike, I'd personally prefer to use taper roller bearings though.

[@ANDY5]

100% agree. But thankfully I haven’t had the responsibility of having to design a 300 + kph super bike. Someone did, I’d trust them. Thanks for the engagement mate, I appreciate it.

[@neilhuband995]

Oh absolutely, I can see why either choice isn't a bad choice for the application. Great content as always Andy, we all really appreciate the non shit-talking content :-)

[@neilhuband995]

Just noticed that in my original comment I didn't mention angular contact bearings. Angular contact bearings are similar to taper roller bearings in the sense that they're both designed for heavy axial loading and not so heavy radial loading. This is why you could pretty much say that it's down to personal preference of the designer of which one to use, and Andy explained well the pros and cons of choosing one type over the other, so I don't need to go into that.

[@luckystrike9332]

Right on the money, man.

[@neilhuband995]

I served my engineering apprenticeship with Michelin and worked in mechanical maintenance for a good number of years. Then I moved on to CNC lathe programming, which I've now done for years. So I've seen things from maintenance and manufacturing perspectives. More recently in the last few years I've worked in aerospace and oil, super high precision 5axis turning of superalloys like inconel. Safe to say, Del's shite ain't fooling me. Tbh, Del's shite ain't fooling even the cleaning staff in any engineering shop ;-) Cheers dude

[@jetmechmarty]

Thanks for the enlightenment!

[@royferntorp3575]

So glad you attacked this subject. I tried ball-race and tapered on my old TR500 and found the ball race to be better. And don't get me started on the tapered bearing swing-arm project. Bushes work just fine!

[@neilhuband995]

Are bushes the norm or do bikes use bearings there? Even if you were gonna use a bearing for it, taper roller bearings would be the wrong choice. That is not a good application for them. You'd be selecting a bearing that's designed to take higher axial loads than radial loads into an application that's much more radial loads than axial loads

[@paulbudford]

Makes perfect sense Andy. More area more friction.

[@michaelwalker1119]

In the gas compressors I repair they have roller bearings. They run a total loss oil system. Oil in the bottom and out off the top then into the compressor to lubricate the blades , the gas moves the oil to a separation unit where the oil falls to the bottom and the gas moves on.. The oil pump on the unit runs off the main input shaft and drip feeds it in.

[@ANDY5]

One of the things we used to make where I did my apprenticeship was helical screw type air compressors and blowers, big ones. Powered by large V8 Detroit Diesels. I know precisely what you’re describing here. Talk about a precision assembly, those things were made to such incredible standards. Cheers mate.

[@chrisloake1453]

Thanks Andy, need to replace the headstock bearings on my Kawasaki GT 750 and this helps 👍

[@brockett]

Thanks. I didn't know that. So I guess that when dell-upgrading to TR the factory preload settings may not apply and touchy feely guesswork comes into play.

[@gizzync1525]

I was told the tapered was a stronger alternative in school. Never thought about accuracy. I'm sure Suzuki didn't envisage the amount of wheeling people do in the design either. Good vid man

[@allenmcknight4757]

Thanks for your explanation iam just about to do my steering head bearings on my aprilia mille genuine aprilia seals dust cover and roller bearings $85 aust iam ok with that and let's be real if tapered rollers were better they would have used them research and development said rollers

[@jimallen199]

Good to see you Andy, well explained Cheers.

[@firestorm755]

You are the tech guru!!

[@joeheydenrych1240]

Thanks Andy, well said.

[@digger8180]

Great vid. Harley-Davidson used to put push-fit grease nipples on their "Softail" motorcycles at the steering stem and down at the swing arm; a bloody good idea I thought, slack off the adjustment nuts to allow excess grease out, a couple of pumps of your mini grease gun, wipe away old grease and retighten. I'm sure there are other motorcycle manufactures who have used similar methods, along with tractor manufactures, etc.😁

[@ANDY5]

Perfectly suited to that style of bike. A 300 + kph super bike, however...

[@digger8180]

Yes I agree. I wasn't really thinking about the Hyabusa when I made that comment. I have however worked with very large high velocity vane air compressors, electricity driven, the electric motors were in their own right monsters. I was what we called "the Frosty", refrigeration engineer on container ships, a rights of passage up the engineering ranks. The motors required two 1×MW gen sets to be on load for start up, even though star-delta. We used to carry electricians back then, RM on greasing these electric motors was short, an exact 22ml of fresh grease in and exactly the same amount extracted. Of course the electricians who we called leccy's would not let anyone near these very expensive motors. It can be done.

[@neilhuband995]

Harley/tractor, pretty much the same thing anyways innit :-D

[@northwest8634]

My 16 year old T-100 has never had the steering head apart. It still works fine but I feel I should get it apart just to check and regrease. I was considering switching to tapers but at the time thought, should I really? You just confirmed that it's not really necessary. If I really need to replace the bearings, I will opt for the easier option of balls and races.

[@michaelwalker1119]

Whilst you have it apart do what a lot of people do. Drill and tap the head stock then fit a grease nipple. Especially it you ride in crap weather.

[@solroth6796]

Spherical roller bearings Cheaper Have better misalignment range. Run faster Tapered roller bearings More expensive Higher axial and radial loads Need to be aligned accurately Longer life Assuming both types will perform the function they're designed for, OEM manufacturers choose parts based on 2 main criteria, and one lesser one. Cost Ease of assembly then Service life. In that order.

[@MrAdam8419]

Liked the explanation

[@ticthedog9413]

👍 Good explanation

[@DC73rr]

Andy's Motorcycle Obsessions, I have always been told that steering head bearings need pre-load. regardless of which bearing design is used. About a 5lbs pull, as in, you will have to pull, on the steering, with more the 5lbs of force to get the assembly to move. (5lbs pull is about the same amount as the trigger pull on a firearm)

[@ANDY5]

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, if I owned a 300 kph super bike I would use OEM and follow the factory manual for torque settings and installation instructions. A 300 kph tank slapper would not be fun. Thanks for watching mate

[@dendren01]

Informative and interesting.

[@JustClassics]

Thanks Andy,........ but maybe mention the fable of: how one day, in a land far far away, a DELusional boy packed all his grease in one 'basket' , and alll the Queens men couldn't ( or didn't have the balls) to put the Busa together again?.....

[@neilhuband995]

I think the bike will work again. What will happen is he'll fuck something up with it, DELete the evidence, and DELegate the repair work to a local bike mechanic. And of course not admit that he got a mechanic to fix it, so being DELiberately dishonest

[@JustClassics]

@@neilhuband995 haha! you're right, absoDELutely right!

[@pbysome]

Tapered roller bearing has a side load aspect that ball and cup doesn't also they are less Agro to fit and require less maintanence. If you let a ball and cup get loose there will be slop top and bottom whereas tapered bearing will maintain "fit" on the bottom bearing because of the pressure. The long and the short of it is they both work when fitted and adjusted properly, would I fit ball and cup? No way, taper bearings go in every time and a good bearing supplier will provide as good or better than oem for a fraction of the price.

[@ANDY5]

True, tapered roller bearings are capable of handling higher radial loads, but angular contact ball bearings can handle the radial loads in a steering assembly adequately. False, if you let an angular contact become loose in a static load situation gravity will maintain accurate location on the bottom bearing, any clearance issues will be in the top bearing just as with a tapered bearing assembly. A motorcycle steering stem is subjected to dynamic forces and a loose assembly, both angular contact AND tapered roller, will see clearance introduced at the bottom bearing during acceleration. The difference is that when you back off the throttle the angular contact will maintain alignment, the tapered roller is more likely to give you a tank slapper.

[@pbysome]

@@ANDY5 iv been fitting tapered bearings for 40 years and never had a tank slapper, back in the day everything was loose ball and cup, basically pushbike tech, and everyone swapped them for tapered rollers and rarely looked at them again. In fact rob north used them on his race frames as swing arm bearings for which they required frame pinch or shims for end float/clearence, I build xr69's and use a tapered roller/thrust race combined for swing arm and I think they are not much more than 20quid a pair. I don't know anyone who would consider anything other than tapered rollers for a headstock It's a no Brainer isn't it?

[@wibblywobblyidiotvision]

"It's a no Brainer isn't it?" @@pbysomeIMO, the fact that Suzuki's engineers deliberately specified angular contact bearings rather than the cheaper tapered rollers would indicate that, no, it's not a "no brainer". On old bikes, replacing cup and cone (effectively 45° angular contact bearings) with taper bearings was a "no brainer", as it stopped the fucking balls dropping all over the workshop floor every time you intervened. On the other hand, this changes the contact angle, (usually around 30° for TRBs) which is still fine for steering head application, but makes adjustment more critical and difficult to do correctly. On a 300+kph bike, I'd tend to treat steering system as "holistic" - if the designers specified a more expensive alternative to "off the shelf bog stock tapered bearings", there is almost certainly a reason for that. Sure, a bearing is a bearing, but a tyre is a tyre, and you're not chucking 12 quid Ching Shens on your 'busa, are you?

[@pbysome]

@@wibblywobblyidiotvision as it happens I stripped an early American import gs1000 a couple of years back and it had ball and cup bearings from the factory, they only fly over the Fucking floor if they haven't been greased. Head stock bearings properly adjusted, and that ain't hard, are not in the same realm as tyres so your condescending comparison Is a bit well...condescending.

[@pbysome]

@@wibblywobblyidiotvision what's this, an English lesson? Aren't we being a touch cemantic or pedantic or just churlish? Oh you just tell me Yoda.

[@michaelhayward7572]

Points; # Harley used (as did old Brit) taper rollers in wheels until 1999. 3-4 thou end float COLD obviously. What a pain on servicing. DTI out for measuring wheel brg play? Longer or shorter spacer tubes sold ( or made in 0.001" increments!). # Taper rollers every time for ease of assembly if you were used to the old bikes with cups and cones and loose balls with no cage a la bicycle. # where did that bloody ball go??? # I did a roaring trade in the 90's finding taper rollers to suit and making spacer rings for the outer race to suit various vintage/classic bikes because no one liked the old headstock cup and cones. # angular contact ball bearings are a whole different ball game. High precision and CAGED! It is why they are the preferred brg in precision grinders. Surface, centre and T&CG. # but in a street bike - give me taper rollers everytime. Every mechanic likes an easy job. Regards,

[@ANDY5]

I would have thought that if Suzuki saw fit to use them in a 300 kph super bike, that they would have done for a reason. Know what I mean? A 300 kph tank slapper would probably not be ideal. I get your point, many good examples there, but in this application I, and it is just my opinion, would stick to the OEM design. Cheers Michael, always enjoy your comments.

[@madcockney]

@@ANDY5 As always you have to consider the job in hand. Probably the race bike is stripped down completely after each race so if the ball race does the job well then keep it. I had to strip a Toyota car gearbox down years ago after it failed. I was surprised to see that they had used ball bearings and one of the cages had failed. I was expecting a taper roller as it could take radial and axial loads. However at the time Toyota had a good name for gearboxes and were supplying them to several other vehicle manufacturers so must have decided that the ball met the required criteria far better or was equal to the taper, and at a lesser cost. There is also the fact that in some situations the ball is easier with less assembly and setup requirements than a taper.

[@ANDY5]

I was referring to the Hayabussa, not a race bike. But you’re right, it’s all about the application.

[@michaelhayward7572]

Andy's Motorcycle Obsessions not disagreeing. As noted, there is a reason angular contact ball bearings are far more expensive than run of the mill taper rollers. Cheers,

[@bruiser6479]

Interesting video. I don’t have any technical training so I think it is safer to assume the engineers who designed the bikes I own did actually know what they are doing. I think it is dangerous for mouth breathers like me to think l know more than the designers and engineers. Which is why I prefer to keep things stock. Especially with a bike engineered with a 300 km/h top speed. Your video helped me understand why Suzuki May have made the engineering choice they did with the Hayabusa.

[@apistosig4173]

Hey Andy - I agree. Personally I would never swap out a regular ball-race steering head bearing for a tapered roller 'unless' the ball-race was worn. The ball-race bearings are more than fine if they suitably adjusted / fitted and are not worn. IF my ball-race steering head bearing was not ideal I would replace it with tapered roller coz' a tapered roller bearing is gonna' give me a greater life-span. I prefer tapered roller bearings in my (bevel drive Ducati) head stems.

[@neilhuband995]

I prefer the design of the baskets on taper roller bearings

[@ANDY5]

Cunny funt 😂

[@christidmas3995]

Here is s good one for you.Why are the rollers tapered.Got my own thoughts on it.

[@neilhuband995]

Because they have to be to roll around that angle without slipping. One end of the roller is rolling around a smaller diameter circle than the other end

[@frankpeutz9106]

Hi Andy, I've watched this video a few times and I must say it is a good and thorough explanation on why ball over taper and visa versa. I personally have great interest in this subject since I used to exchange all head stock bearings for the tappered version, believing they were superior to the (in my eyes) cheap ball versions .... till I saw the MotoGP guys using ..... BALL BEARINGS for their head stock. I was a little confused at that time and since then I'm interested in the pro's and con's of either application. QUESTION: could you (with some help from maybe your Dutch friend van den Biggelaar) make a video how to correctly adjust the 2 types (pre load, torque etc.). I have read a lot of bull about it and the (my) problem is if I read the official factory manuals they always give the instructions and torque settings for their (mostly ball bearing) application. Would be much oblidged if you could do something with this (have a lot of books regarding motorcycle suspension and construction but this item is left out). Thanks anyway, Frank (Belgium)

[@Anderle52134]

Suzuki changed their minds on my bike and switched from ball bearings to taper bearings after the first model year.

[@ANDY5]

Yes they did

[@neilhuband995]

There was maybe just a special offer on at Bearings'R'Us

[@Kro_man_tx]

You talk about Del-splaining... We just got some And-splaining. 😋😁😁

[@neilhuband995]

The difference being that Andy isn't talking absolute shite

[@neilhuband995]

In some of Del's videos, you can actually see the cogs turning in his mind, absolutely making it up as he goes. Those are the best DBG videos. Another one of the absolute classics for me, in fact my favourite video he ever did make, was the one where he expertly sharpened the drill bit, showing it off to the camera and explaining how good it was. I loved that fkn video. Any time I was sad I could play it and instantly I was in fits of laughter. I should've downloaded it, but I didn't, and after some of the comments that I made about it, and others made about it, Del bloody deleted it I think. Does anyone else remember the classic that was the drill sharpening video? A recent one that was funny was the master cylinder video, I'm assuming it wasn't only me who noticed the amount of fucking blue threadlock he put on those screws. Fuck me, that was insane :-D Anyways, going off on tangents here

[@dirtygarageguy]

@@neilhuband995 "Does anyone else remember the classic that was the drill sharpening video?" - I downloaded it, it's in my wank bank

[@neilhuband995]

"Wank bank" LOL! He's right up there with comedy royalty for that shit :-D

[@thomaslemay8817]

I like to interrogate the rider and determine exactly how he intends to use the bike because has you say both have their strong points and the engineers design these bikes are not fools if you have a bike that's raced on short circuits with lots of quick Direction changes the ball bearing is superior it can be the difference between win or lose. If the bike will be used in a situation where there is an extreme amount of pounding on the suspension system then the tapered roller bearing might be the better choice. as I said before everything you said is correct.

[@jamesgoodwin2450]

Most of this information is very good but probably for guys who want to talk about motorcycles for hours and hours hahahahaha

[@ANDY5]

LOL...most of this comment is very good but probably for guys who want to play with their vaginas for hours and hours

[@jamesgoodwin2450]

I think playing with a cunt is more preferable to listening to one hahahahaha love the banter

[@DistinctOgre]

Hey man, I very poorly try to make my point all the time. No worries mate. 😁

[@neilhuband995]

I'm still trying to figure out if your profile picture is a BMaha badge or a YamaW one

[@DistinctOgre]

@@neilhuband995 Given those choices, I'll go with BMaha.

[@peterhatfield5632]

Nomenclature (your word, Andy): I think you mean "versus" in the title.

[@ANDY5]

🤣🤣🤣 Thanks mate. Nomenclature is correct, spelling is not 👍

[@peterhatfield5632]

@@ANDY5 Cheers, Andy. I've subscribed, and decided to drop Delboy's Garage - you're quite right about his lack of expertise.

[@Cobra427Veight]

Sometimes I think it is whatever you can buy for that old 70s motorcycle, mostly tapered , old Japanese motorcycles have pitiful oem parts back up , I have jap bikes and a Norton and a triumph , the oem parts back up is fantastic for british motorcycles , "Andover Norton" have just about any part .

[@neilhuband995]

I meant to add in my comment (wouldn't let me edit) that when del was delsplaining about bearings, he talked an absolute crock of shit. Never explain to people something that you know perfectly well you do not have the knowledge about. Don't just make it up as you go along. You may fool some viewers into thinking you know what you're talking about, but any actual engineers or people who know a bit on the subject are gonna call you out and show you up to be the fool that you are. Not only that, but I've noticed many times, and del has been called out for it many times, actual dangerous information and bad practices being taught to his subscribers, which could end up with someone being injured. This is where the real problem is.

[@VadersDarkside]

This channel has become Andy's Delboy Obsessions and a bit of a yawnfest. Time to move on.

[@pbysome]

With context your swearing is inconsequential as it probably is in real life,as for correcting my "grammar" not English, I seem to remember you adding quotation marks to it's a no brainer but on reflection it was because you where quoting me and not admonishing me for the lack thereof, hey go my apologies for defending a position that didn't need it. Look I tend too buck a lot of things in life until proven or I see reason in them, I had always fitted taper roller bearings even to a racing sidecar outfit that got way to much stress put on it from all directions, never had issues with them and have complete faith in them, right wrong it's what I believe so it's what I will do. I suspect you may be the same or not that as they say is your prerogative. A fair wind sir.

[@sheikyerbouti83]

Jesus Andy! Will you stop being sensible with your training, experience and fancy book-lernin'!!!! BTW, can you do a video on why all the steering head bearings from All Balls Racing are tapered rollers? No balls in sight!!. Every time i see an angular contact bearing I'm overcome with jealousy petty hate.

[@ANDY5]

lol

[@henryhawk978]

I just follow BRADTHEBIKEBOY.