Cheap Chinese Atmel ATMega8 Investigation

[@francislee5515]

I used to work in a wafer fab, so I could explain how some of the chips are so cheap compared to those from the official sources. All the chips are manufactured at the same plants, done in the same way. However, after each batch is manufactured, they will go through batch sampling tolerance testing. Those that passes the batch sample testing will go to official distributors, whilst those which are slightly under will go to other non-official distributors. So if you are using your chip for critical applications, it is important that you get from official sources because they will be guaranteed to be within the specified tolerances. However if you are just a hobbyist or for experimental purposes, the chips will work 99% of the time.

[@jimviau327]

+Frank Lode thanks for this clarification. Very useful.

[@pierreugaz]

+Frank Lode Thanks for the info!

[@andysworkshopuk]

+Frank Lode Surely the QC fails should be trashed. Do the terms of the manufacturing contract allow the fab to sell off fails in the grey market? I've seen many a commercial contract and none would permit that. That's not to say that it doesn't happen of course.

[@AndyWJP]

+Andy Brown It seems like the cosmetic detail was the QC fail in this case. Hence not acceptable by Farnell who maybe demand sexy-looking chips.

[@MrGayguru]

This is like Intel Celeron CPU, orinaly is I7 before QC? :)

[@hippopotamus86]

4:05 - No, Royal Mail technically pays for it. There is an international trade agreement which means when you post something overseas, the recipient country posts it for free once they have it. In China, they post so much stuff out, they don't pay per parcel, they have a kind of a contract with their postal service which allows them to post out as much as they like for a recurring fee.

[@joejoe4games]

Not free, but a Standardized international delivery fee which often doesn't cover the cost.

[@romiolover6852]

I bought a lot of silicon components (+2000) pieces from china and i did not encounter any problem yet

[@Marco_Onyxheart]

I've never had anything from China packaged this badly. Though this stacking method looks reasonably protective to me. At least the MCUs themselves are kind of protecting the pins.

[@Paberu85]

Actually shipping price is almost always included in the price of the lot, so basically you have payed ~4$ for shipping, and ~1$ for 5 controllers

[@sunhuatom]

LOL, That's maybe true

[@trifidsagitarius]

Since RadioShack is gone I buy ALL my chips and hardware from China. I also buy things from DigiKey, Mouser, Jameco and others but I always look for bargains first. Fakes or no fakes all the chips I've bought from the Chinese work, I have no regrets and saved a lot of money. IMHO the Chinese have a very smart business strategy and this is why they are so successful.

[@tombonorth1071]

+trifidsagitarius plot twist: All the chips you used from china have secret backdoors that let the chinese spy on you. Lol. I joke, but, it has happened at least once before IRL

[@binarybox.binarybox]

I've bought a lot of these ATMega 328 ICs from China and they all have worked. I build a lot of projects and have had very little trouble. One or two RGB leds per hundred may be faulty but I always check every led I use, no mater what type. I buy alsorts of chips etc from China and they have been good. There are fake Li Ion batteries that should be avoided and also power output RF transistors but Arduinos, Bluetooth, etc etc have all been working OK and I've spent a few thousand pounds over the years. Thumbs up to you , trifidsagitarius.

[@rocketman221projects]

I have bought lots of cheap AVRs and STM32s from ebay and all of them have worked just fine. I suspect the issues people have reported are ESD damage caused by improper packaging. They usually come packaged in polystyrene foam and plastic bags which generate a lot of static electricity.

[@markpatrick4662]

A very interesting comparison. I guess for a hobbyist or home project, there is little risk to using them given the price. But for a commercial project, there's huge risk and potential liability in using grey market or (potentially) counterfeit product.

[@rohitkhanna4487]

I used to live in India before moving to UK, and used to buy atmega8 for about 50 pence a piece 4 years back. I remember buying 50pcs or so and all of them worked. In fact back there we never used stores like farnell and RS there for they were very expensive(They do exist). I guess these large companies end up paying a lot for the logistics and quality control and webpages and staff. I do buy a lot of stuff on ebay here in UK that comes from China and it seems to work reasonably well.

[@nipunagunarathne4882]

They typically use laser coders to make the print. another cheap way to make this print is by screen printing. The lasers engrave or cut the print on whereas screen printing is an ink-based system which leaves a print which can scratched off by a fingernail. On the other hand, the laser print is burnt about half a millimetre deep into the plastic and doesn't scratch off that easily. Laser code printers are very expensive (around 30,000$ per machine) whereas screen printing is much, much cheaper (dont know an exact value but it's the same way mugs are printed) so you can be pretty sure its a fake if its a screen print since it means the company couldn't afford lasers.

[@thomasbaumann694]

Nice video. Have you tried to establish a debugWire connection? The protocol is afaik still closed, so it shouldn't work on faked chips.

[@jaakkooksa5374]

What about the SMD MCUs on Chinese Arduino boards? Are they fake also? They seem to work just fine.

[@M10S5]

i bought a super cheap atmega32 from aliexpress, all looked normal at the begining, but when i try to use the spi protocol with the Uc fails at frequencyes near the 16Mhz, the Uc only works bellow 12Mhz, i have never had problems like that before, maybe a blink of a led can work, but how about usart, spi, i2c???

[@ryanbareither89]

The US postal service subsidizes small packets from China. I get things from eBay shipped free all the time. Takes three weeks, but the price is right. It costs me $1.15 to send a post card to Europe but I can get a 50g packet from China for free.

[@zcxvasdfqwer1234]

Dude you have a fantastic website too!!!! Well done and congrats! I'm still trying to take off the arduino training wheels and program these with usbasp and usbtiny....no luck so far...there must be something wrong I'm doing. Its halted my progress for about 3 months hahahaha. But its all part of the hobby it seems. Glad to hear you had some success here!

[@babbadge]

Great video! I bought some ATMEGA32A-PU (40 pin DIP) from banggood.com a while ago, 5 pieces for EUR8.34, free shipping. Normal price elsewhere: EUR17. Same story: packaging: just stacked on top of each other; but they work perfectly!

[@benrockwell1503]

If you look at the logos, they aren't the same. Look at the 'E' they are different. I doubt Atmel changed their logo. More likely the Chinese have just copied the die so they are copies...decent ones it seems.

[@protonx80]

+Ben Rockwell there may be different manufacturing facilities manufacturing these things for Atmel in different countries. ive purchased different lots of attiny 45 and the logos or the engraving (laser engraving ) are different and they are perfectly genuine ics

[@thrasherLT]

My Atmega16A (more energy efficient than Atmega16 came in good ESD protection and with no bent pins, but I think the timer1 A and B output pins were switched for some reason..

[@netman69]

I've had my fair share of buying ICs from china, and if it's not for critical applications or huge money it's worth the gamble I think (i.e. hobby use, not production). Most of the times there's not a problem however occasionally I've had laughable rubbish in the mail: - tl052 opamps that where actually behaving extremely closely to lm358s, definitely misrepresentation of them - instrumentation amp ICs that were just encapsulated carrier frames, no silicon found - mosfets and power leds packaged in such silly way they arrived electrically destroyed (much like the atmels in the video, but an mcu can take quite a lot of static) Said issues with packaging can be avoided if you look at the sellers you buy from though, if all they sell is parts and they package everything else antistatic they're okay, if they sell clothing as well best avoid..

[@antadefector]

Respected sir, can it be that the ATMega8 that Farnell sells are a new wafer that does not have an internal short circuit from VCC to AVCC. There were a few errata documents for the old wafer. Maybe there is an old stock of wafers, packaged in 2014. Or as is now seen in comments wafers didn't pass the flash holding test.

[@TediCreations]

It might came from a PCB fab. They fell off from the pick and place machine and they sell them again cheaper.

[@Recovered]

I have used loads of cheapo fakes from China, and so far havent had any problems, breakdowns or odd responses.. im happy :)

[@martintk4919]

I've been in the industry for some years. It is often common to mark dies unpacked or packed with some sort of ink mark if they fail production tests. So I would guess that this chip is one that failed after it was packed, and the top of the plastic pack was filed down to then get the mark removed and a new print stamped (reason for the smoother plastic). Voila, you got a cheap chip that you have no idea whats wrong with. You can probably live with offsets in the analog parts. Scan-test or the built-in-self-test for RAM, however. A fail there can hit hard at random times and be close to impossible to debug. Would not use that in a big project. :)

[@martintk4919]

+Martin TK On second thoughts. If you are really lucky, it is an old chip/prototype given a new date. Check the date with the one on the belly. They should be the same.

[@BlisterHiker]

The way those ICs were packaged is not the worst. The worst is when you order items of various size and weight, and they put everything in the box without protection for smaller parts so one can have more fun with MCUs bullied in shipping by DC motors, for example. Thanks for making the video.

[@bm830810]

it would be interesting if you could compare the current consumptions of both MCUs

[@DeepankarMaithani]

On a first glance I would say atmega 328 (one you call original)and atmega 8(ALI EXPRESS) are two siblings but are not exactly same. A quick look at the datasheet Atmega8 512 eeprom 1k SRAM 8k flash While the atmega328 2k SRAM 1k EEPROM 32k flash Also it seems some other differences are there. Probably that's why they are cheap.

[@BerendvanBerkum0]

Same wavers. So maybe out-of-spec. But how can an amateur check this. The cheap m8 being what they are, I'm more curious about the arduino m328p and m32u now. The DIP's but also the TQFP ie. the pro mini clones. Could those be substandard as well.

[@clivejones5880]

I run an electronics repair shop and can tell you that Ebay is flooded with counterfeit and fake Chinese parts of which many have been through the shop. Many of these parts, if they do work, have short lives, are way out of operating specifications and many don't work at all. The problem is so bad that distributors have had to set up another QC level to try to screen out fake parts. We had one part (an obsolete amplifier) that exploded when powered up and upon checking, this part had also exploded in the service department of a very well know amplifier manufacturer. Use Chinese parts at your own risk.

[@vasya88]

Hey Andy, Notice the number 4 is different font

[@johnyu-eh4id]

These ATmega chips aren't worth counterfeiting. Those super expensive instrumental INAxxx op amps from TI has counterfeits.

[@colinyuan5404]

if you're a foreigner who wants to buy genuine IC from China, i suggest u buy from a distributor of that brand, or buy from a Chinese guy you can trust. as a Chinese who live in Shenzhen, i always know that some guys recycle chips from old PCBs, after cleaning those chips, they sold them with a very low price.

[@MrWhaatay]

I'd be cool with that as long as they worked. I wouldn't want to pay hundreds of dollars for a new chip that is used but will buy a dollar used cheap vs $5 for start new one.

[@rockets4kids]

Any updates on these after using them for a while?

[@Abdullbasit1985]

I always buy from aliexpress and choose the cheapest MCU's (I use stm32 and avr's ) and all works perfectly

[@thomashvnmusic]

There are actually "original" chinese Atmel microcontrollers. The only difference is that they are made in China. But it will always be a risk buying them online as you cannot know if the dealer is the real deal unless you live in China.

[@andysworkshopuk]

Agreed. They must make their money through enough of us saying "hey, it's so cheap I may as well give it a shot"

[@boogis]

+trsk I have not been let down yet eiter. On eBay I usually only buy, if the seller has sold alot, and has a good rating.

[@fifaham]

No wonder why China is dominating the World industries - they deserve it because they are very smart and they work very very hard - I have seen them in person how they have amazing spirit for work and productivity.

[@ShellacScrubber]

I bought 5 ATmEGA328P chips from China and the blinky program worked fine.However, bigger more complex programs didn't work at all !!

[@lexclock]

what was the page where you buy everything?

[@joesgarage618]

The real is marked atmega"328" chinese version is just atmega"8"

[@andysworkshopuk]

+joesgarage618 Are you sure? The 328 is a unique model all in itself (the Arduino core).

[@joesgarage618]

+Andy Brown I meant on yours, at time stamp 4:58, if the bottom one is the Chinese version, it is stamped "atmega8", whereas the top one is stamped "atmega328". Just wondering why they left off the "32".

[@tunahankaratay1523]

@@joesgarage618 He shows an almost identical genuine IC for comparison.

[@migry]

You are correct. I’m not familiar with the AVR so no ideas what the ATMEGA8 is. At first glance the markings of the bottom device look legit (to me).

[@gastarbieter]

what do you do professionally?

[@tpowell453]

The color of the plastic means nothing. One has been used for a long time, one has never been used. Fingers have oil. Right?

[@chevsev]

it could be a copy OR china can order bare dies do they may have had a few thousand die left after some other product and put them in there own dip, that would explain all the things that are off about the shell. Is Atmel only made in one factory?

[@andreasTrondheim]

+zallin Atmel Runs megaAVR in several fabs. Packaging is not done in the fab, but in assembly houses and there are mutliple of that as well

[@lanchanoinguyen2914]

the ic was made in china and had been made with difference technology compare with the high quality ic.

[@user-ug9nn]

They can look differently from different reason, produced in different factories, on different manufacturing lines, in different days, with materials from different suppliers, or even the material from supplier can have some difference,.. chips are the same but but nothing is 10000% perfect. Look how a same chip is sent with different suffixes that my select different speeds, internal are identical, but material purity, process variation from different batches,.. affect speed,...

[@VermaV]

One of my client is using such cheap chips for last 5 years and never had any issue. I think the issues are with the power devices like TRIACS, FETS etc.

[@Fangirl_baddie]

can u send atmega8 hex file for pixel led scroling board

[@Mixbag]

ok so i got some too off ebay, a bunch of 10. they all worked HOWEVER over time leaving them not powered up with my code on them i had some that would not accept code being written to them. To get them working again i had to install a boot loader. after that they worked ok again but months later one did the same thing again. very strange but for the price there good but i would use one from a trusted seller if your going to use the chip in a project thats permanent

[@andysworkshopuk]

That's not good at all. it seems to imply that there's something wrong with the data retention ability of the internal flash.

[@andysworkshopuk]

That's not good at all. it seems to imply that there's something wrong with the data retention ability of the internal flash.

[@hariharanb785]

I had my hand on one of these. since china is close by India a lot of counterfeits make their way here. That melted my breadboard while programming it, i burned my hand touching it. I get them for around $ 2/piece here in India

[@CAPTAINSSBN]

Great Job Man... I have some of each of the mega48 and am getting ready to fire them up driving a 3ph motor.

[@mvssarma3387]

Perhaps we need not doubt a device , just because of sale from China. regards sarma vu3zmv

[@jiayichen6490]

Yes, there are many counterfeit chips from China, but they are not as bad as you think. Some of them are as good as the real ones

[@AlanMedina314]

I buy components and misc parts from china that cost $0.90 yet they offer free shipping. The economics involved don't make sense to me but I am happy.

[@ryanbareither89]

The US Postal Service subsidizes the shipping from China

[@Althu-blog]

good video my brother amazing

[@DavidMolony]

Surely they're that cheap because they're an ancient, virtually obsolete chip? If it wasn't for Arduino, no one would use them. I bet the only reason they're 2£+ on Farnell is because they're desperately trying to stop people using them... You can have a cortex M0 with 3* the clock rate and vastly improved peripherals for 45cents now.

[@Sam-dc9bg]

There are so many fakes out there..so....where can I get a genuine chip?

[@ismzaxxon]

It would seem that a lot of complaints about China are just suppliers complaining or making stories up because china is really big on exporting. After all, they have loaned trillions of dollars to the USA, who are major consumers. China is really quite smart in keeping delivery cost way down. It costs me 4 times as much to send a letter from one side of Australia to the other, than it does to get something sent from China. I have bought heaps of ICs and components for China, even before Ebay started up. Never had an issue. Yeah flimsy packagi g, but what did you expect for a dollar. in the millions of transa tions, its really hard to even find a few dud chips or fakes. The Chineese government craks down on chip fakes quickly. I was advised that cheap ICs are also items stolen from the factory and sold off on the side.

[@ismzaxxon]

+Ethan Williams my luck ran out. Since writing this, i have had dodgy components from a new supplier. specs were for a different component.

[@sunhuatom]

Most of the time, it is totally fine to use those cheap ones. As Frank Lode has said, no quality guaranteed, especially in a long run. Those atmega MCUs are even cheaper to buy here in China. Some of them are just like free. I just got mine(ATMEGA328PU) for 0.35pounds each. That's a fraction of the price listed on digikey or mouser. My guess is that some manufacturers bought wafers from fab and did the packaging by themselves, this is the most effective way to cut the cost down, and also explained the difference in the marking. Well, if some chip is really popular, like nrf24l01, there are indeed fake ones. Some crazy company even went though all the troubles, and designed chips with identical functions or ever better performance. It is not recommended for product engineering though. Even for my company(we are in China offcouse), we never buy those random components from alibaba or aliexpress. They are going to screw your projects really hard, like sending 10% resistors, when you ordered 1% ones . But for hobbyist projects, it's gonna save tons of money.

[@jugnu361]

ESD may be the cause the way you are handling it , NOT made in china..

[@acciuvaleri1667]

yes china can "shipping" wherever you want and this is why in many cases ebay is outdated :)

[@cahyoariwibowo7624]

i just got 1usd/pc for atmega8, cheap and work fine.. :)

[@qqlove139]

Actually , all these chips works. You also can buy from taobao.com , we in China prefer to taobao.com.

[@JohnKhalil]

may be this guy who sell those cheap mcu s had bought tons of thems from atmel with lower prices that can make him sell it with such a low price !!

[@webadminstichtingkis849]

Why is this video necesary? I never had any problems with ALIEXPRESS. Nevertheless, most articles are made in China Homeland. Free post is the solution of yearcontracts for shipping and quantity.

[@jaedugub]

Try some ultra low power and see how compares to a real one ;)

[@qsdrfghgujfddyffguff]

informative

[@surenbono6063]

...minimize plastic waste on once used packages....cheaper shipping weigh..chinese products are legit , lo-cost...mybe we should learn from them...an exact arduino but more cost efficient minus bent pins

[@DominoSixO]

The funny thing, the are all made in china even if you buy them from a top seller at your local or internet market. :D

[@slap_my_hand]

wtf just get a real one. they aren't that expensive...

[@MrBobWareham]

I have had the same problem with China FTDI programmer chip just crap I think it is wrong that they copy everything but then it is our fault if we keep buying from China if we just purchased from Italy for Arduino then perhaps it would stop the trouble is it is hard to tell some items are good fake parts

[@nid274]

maybe they are factory rejected...or maybe you have been extorted by the other one...lol

[@marcinwitkowski6443]

All Ic are made in Taiwan, china, malesia, iven Analog Device have manufacture in asia. There is no point to film this video... Packing if you buy not from the manufactory for ex. 1 K you will cheve this packing, with out any ESR prot. you brought from person but not from Q special electronic company

[@actionoise]

thanks bro you permitted actionoise sistem......