Antisemitism in the Church : The Theology Pugcast Episode 275

Today’s episode was prompted by responses to an admittedly provocative post Glenn put up on Facebook that generated some virulently antisemitic remarks from Christians. The guys explore the problem of antisemitism, the common ground between the far right and the progressive left, group identity, and a range of related topics.
Support the Pugcast in Oxford on Indiegogo: www.indiegogo.com/projects/th...
Support the Pugcast on Patreon: www.patreon.com/thetheologypu...
The Theology Pugcast is a ministry of Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville Alabama. To view more media from TRC, visit their website: trinityreformedkirk.com/trc-m...

[@LoneBulwark]

Would have been nice if you all talked about certain statements from Chrysostom, Luther, Calvin, Bucer, Vermigli, Voetius, and Rutherford.

[@bretlynn]

Paul makes generalizations about Jews all time

[@stephen1137]

Paul knew them, and was one of them until he converted. Since the preaching of Jesus, and the rending of the veil in the temple and the resurrection, Judaism is the repudiation of the Messiah fully developed into a religion which hates the rest of the world and views all non-Jews as subhuman.

[@martyroth2994]

Glenn needs some help in understanding what a generalization is-a generalization. Its not a statement about EVERY SINGLE PERSON in a group. Christ made generalizations, Paul made generalizations-about Jews. Generalizations don't require something to be true of all individuals in a group.

[@junkdrawer5262]

Only thing I’m hearing in this podcast is scapegoating Christians for consistently bad Jewish behavior.

[@molivson]

So Christians can't be seen as a monolithic group, but Jews can? Guess you didn't listen that well.

[@molivson]

And what exactly is "consistently bad" behavior? Vague accusations are hard to refute

[@joshmarietta9158]

So what actions account for the disdain for Jews over Amish? They are both different and want to keep their own identity. No assimilation. So what accounts for the different views of these two groups?

[@cinemint]

It's probably because the Amish aren't constantly taking positions of power and forcing other groups of people to assimilate 🤔

[@andyjones1982]

The Amish are pacifists, and beyond that do not seek power and influence in general.

[@bobtaylor170]

Easy: there is a Devil. The Jews are God's once and future people.

[@USMC-cv5sd]

Jews inter-marry at a large rate, so your analogy is false.

[@joshmarietta9158]

@@USMC-cv5sd and I’m no expert but I would imagine the Amish marry among themselves. Do we have an ever increasing Amish population? And the analogy is on point. They state how the Jews are similar to the Amish. But one group is hated all throughout modern history and kicked out of countries at an alarming rate. Why are they treated so but Amish or Mennonites not treated the same. They must behave in a different manner, no?

[@joshmarietta9158]

19:08 Being honest here. Why were the Jews so often kicked out of these places? I get that they could easily be scapegoat because of lending and political power but I would find that hard to imagine that would cause all their evictions.

[@andyjones1982]

People are reluctant to ask this, because it can be construed as victim-blaming, but it does need to be asked if we are to gain a complete understanding.

[@bobtaylor170]

It's because there is a Devil. He hates Christians and he wants to destroy us, but he also hates the Jews, because God intends to restore them as a nation in belief, belief in His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ.

[@bobtaylor170]

@@andyjones1982 because there is a Devil, and he hates the people who gave us The Word of God and God's Son incarnated. Anti - Semitism is without exception diabolical in origin.

[@molivson]

Because evil exists too. And it cant stand us. And it will find wiling vessels for its hate.

[@tanks1945]

Glenn Sunshine is correct and I'm glad he brought this subject up; antisemitism is a Satanic force and it is not limited to the secular non-believing world but is within the church. I've been surprised by the number of Christians who have this virus.

[@bretlynn]

Just trying to live their lives... they're not Amish guys

[@marymack1]

Love requires the truth...everyone, including Jewish people, needs the Gospel.

[@thedudeabides3930]

You goofballs.

[@justinsponaugle3550]

This will sound like a stupid comment to some, but I finally realized what's bothering me about these concerns. This concern is brought up amid a genocide of Palestinians. Sure, does antisemitism exist, yes, and I realize this show is about that versus antizionism, and the hosts are free to share the content they wish, but it reminds me of people jumping on the bandwagon of BLM when so many other evil movements were afoot.

[@everysquareinchministries4799]

Hamas explicitly calls for genocide against Israel. What Israel is doing does not meet the legal definition of genocide and is within the bounds of the internationally recognized laws of war. That's a point no one seems to remember. All Hamas has to do is surrender and its over. But no, they won't, and they promise to repeat October 7 over and over until Israel is destroyed. Then they want to go after Jews internationally, which we are seeing in the antisemitic attacks in Europe and America. So no, I don't accept the genocide charge, and if anything, it should go the other way around.

[@PanhandleFrank]

Commenting before the discussion: Sincerely hope you guys discuss a proper definition of the word “anti-semitism.” Several people have noted (ie, the late great Joseph Sobran) that the definition tends to vary widely, to include any criticism whatsoever of the Jewish lobby or Israel. I do think antisemitism is a bad thing. I also think that calling many different things “antisemitism” cheapens / dilutes actual antisemitism. So a true (ie, biblical) definition is vital. /caveat On to the discussion!😁

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

It began with the founding of the great banks: three were given to the Dutch; frugal, wisest, and most prudent of all investors. Seven to the Swiss Lords; great miners and craftsmen of the commodity funds. And nine, nine banks were gifted to the race of Anglos, who above all else desire power. For within these banks was bound the liquidity and book value to govern each economy. But they were all of them deceived, for another bank was made: in the the land of Israel, in the offices of Temple Mount, the dark lord Rothschild founded, in secret, a central bank to control all others And into this bank, he poured his cruelty, his malice, and his will to dominate all economies, One Bank to Finance them All

[@goyonman9655]

This is a goated comment

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

@@goyonman9655 the formatting got jacked up after I copied and pasted it but 🤷‍♂️

[@featurebroadcast297]

Excellent conversation.

[@josephm2357]

Criticizing them for working as a unified bloc to subvert the norms and traditions of a Christian culture is fair. Pushing blasphemies of Christ through the media should upset every believer. None of this is hidden, denying this reality makes you a fool or a boomer.

[@bobtaylor170]

A unified bloc? Are you on a psychedelic? How many observant Jews have anything to do with the shaping of the culture?

[@bobtaylor170]

Also: "...a Christian culture." If you think we have a Christian culture, you're deranged.

[@goyonman9655]

@@bobtaylor170 The organised elite minority of any group represents said group

[@molivson]

How the heck are 15 million people even able to subvert 3 billion?

[@goyonman9655]

@@molivson Most human beings are by nature, designed t mindlessly follow programming and authority It's how God made us

[@kenithandry5093]

Excellent discussion. Thanks.

[@JohnCBarsoom]

I didn't take Glenn's bait by responding to his post, but I'm one of those he was trying to "smoke out." And yes, I do have Jewish friends, though one less than I had last year because through God's grace and my sharing of the Gospel she's now a Christian. Don't be so obsessed with purging "anti-semites" from the church that you keep us from evangelizing and converting Jews.

[@geraldredlinger9176]

lol wut

[@JonJaeden]

What about her conversion to Christ makes her no longer Jewish?

[@everysquareinchministries4799]

Did you actually listen to the end of the episode? I made this point myself.

[@JonJaeden]

It seems to me the economy and finances are the sea in which we all swim -- a force that controls and limits the possibilities in our lives. Consequently, any group heavily represented in those fields will be suspected of being the cause of our misfortune.

[@ojluna]

I enjoy this very intellectual conversation/program. It is so refreshing to hear smart dialect. I crave this talk but do not have anyone in my sphere to dialect like this. I do have one suggestion…. Maybe tone down the self promotion in the beginning where you each describe all of your accomplishments. Maybe just introduce and then put a description on bottom of the page describing each ones accomplishments. I understand that you want to let the audience know that you are educated and informed but it does become wearying hearing these day after day BUT more importantly is this what Jesus would do? Did he go around self promoting? It is a gross thing that humans do and your conversations after all of the telling of ones accomplishments shows that you are all highly intelligent men. Sorry that is my soap box but I feel that Christians need to stop doing this. We are ALL on the same level in Gods eyes. We did not give ourselves our gifts, our intelligence , what family we are born into and on and on. Thank you.

[@joshmarietta9158]

What Hama did on Oct 7 was evil and wrong. But brushing over the response or the conditions that are and have been in Gaza are why people are jumping in to support Gaza. OCT 7 was not the start of this. And only talking in specifics about one side is a dishonest way of going through this.

[@craigsmith1443]

Israel has tried to ameliorate the Gazans' conditions for years. They have allowed aid to them, they have even sent aid to them themselves over the years. They have offered a 'two-state' solution to them that Hamas has rejected ever since they took power and have never been forced out by popular demand. Hamas has taken aid money to build fortified and armed tunnels from which to attack Israel. Hamas has sheltered arms under hospitals and schools. Hamas has forbidden their own people to escape the war (largely ignored, happily). Hamas has mandated in their children's schools Nazi antisemitic literature as curriculum and has indoctrinated their people with anti-Jewish (not anti-Israel) propaganda. Hamas is evil far beyond any geopolitical reason, and they themselves have determined that the only way to stop them is by killing them, so Israel is forced into this war. None of it is their fault. Gaza is Hamas's fault.

[@joshmarietta9158]

@@craigsmith1443 yeah. I am no supporter of Hamas. But I can sit and call out the wrong on both sides. Unlike the avid Zionist supporters. Israel has repeatedly bombed aid. They have targeted refugee centers. They have employed the same Nazi extremism but toward the Palestinians. The two state solution was never a free Palestine so why would they support it. And saying that there was a bad guy in a hospital is an o same statement that only works in one place on earth. Israel. If there we hostages in a middle school in Indiana would you blow the whole thing up to get the bad guys. No. If you did, you’d be an insanely evil man. How many times has the UN council on human rights asked Israel to stop using Palestinian human shields. It’s called the neighbor policy. Look it up. And I know countries are going to fight and this happens everywhere. But Israel is given an insane amount of American tax dollars and weapons to do this. Since the people haven’t voted out Hamas and can be blamed. Are you personally responsible for your governments crimes? I’m American and I am sure glad I’m not liable for the war crimes and sinister actions of my govt. the last election in Palestine was 07. Where are the leaders of Hamas? Not in Palestine. They are free to go in Jordan. Where should they go? Israel has stated they want to eradicate that land of Palestinians? Again this is nothing new. The part that drives me insane is how so many people that call themselves Christian’s turn a blind eye because “they are Gods chosen”.

[@andyjones1982]

@@craigsmith1443 "None of it is their fault" is extremely naive. What about settlement, ongoing in the West Bank; ongoing ethnic cleansing? What about the past ethnic cleansing, including the Nakbah? You should listen to Martyr Made podcast where you will learn many things, including that the Jewish immigrants have been militant and intent on conquest if not ethnic cleansing ever since they began to arrive from Eastern Europe. By now you are right that Israel can do no other; they must now lie in the bed that they have made. But that does not mean that we need to support them in it.

[@molivson]

The start was Mohammed 1400 years ago and the hatred of Jews and the desire to make them kneel for all eternity. That's where Islam still stands. Not about land, it's about pesky Jews having their own sovereignty in their own land.

[@justinsponaugle3550]

@@craigsmith1443 It would be worth mentioning the Israeli support for Hamas when it was founded. And the desire to split the Palestinians politically between Hamas and the Fatah party. Westerners seem to not know this. The goal of Zionists has always been a greater Israel that stretches from the Nile to the Euphrates. I'd like to know when an Israeli government has ever seriously considered a two-state solution. Given the way Palestinians have been treated and that they're not allowed to have their own military are we really surprised they resort to terrorist tactics? Have we ever gotten clarity on why Oct. 7th even happened? Former Israeli soldiers are on record saying such an attack would be impossible given the security systems in place.

[@goyonman9655]

My favourite show is doing the boomer neocon special 😞

[@theinfiniteawe]

Can you spell it out for us? Why do you say that? What are you implying by “boomer neocon”?

[@andyjones1982]

@@theinfiniteawe a previous generation, which includes my own parents, who were pro-Israel, regarding its existence as a miracle of God, in contrast to this generation, which has realized that many of our inherited political beliefs are simplistic, and have gone looking for greater understanding, and who have learned that Israel is by no means as ethical or moral as reported, nor would it have survived in the domineering way that it has, had we western Zionists not been so keen to support it. The existence of Israel is not a miracle; it is a self-fulfilling prophecy; an ugly attempt by man to do what only God can do.

[@bobtaylor170]

I'm a Boomer, NOT a neocon. I am a Christian. What Glenn Sunshine said early in the program about the Jews' being hated because they gave the world the Word of God and The Incarnate Son is exactly right.

[@JonJaeden]

If Luther meant to convey anti-Judaism as opposed to antisemitism, perhaps he should have reworked that title -- "On the Jews and Their Lies" -- before going to press ...

[@joshualister8362]

"Jews" was used to denote a religious group just like we say Muslims or Christians to refer to a religious identity. Luther is clear about this in his work. I would recommend that you read it.

[@JonJaeden]

@@joshualister8362 My mild critique was not of what he wrote but rather his title. It did not age well.

[@joshualister8362]

I guess the point is that for Luther saying the term "Jew" would primarily refer to a religious identity. This would have been the case for his audience at the time too. I agree that it did not age well but that is largely because into the modern era we stopped viewing a group's identity as connected to their religion and started thinking in terms of race. @@JonJaeden

[@goyonman9655]

​@@joshualister8362 That group has always been a tribe They had no concept of their "religion" That term is a modern christian invention

[@joshualister8362]

@@goyonman9655 the term may be a modern invention but the concept goes back to when God first called Abraham. His servants were circumcised and given a new group identity, despite not being direct descendants of Abraham. Paul uses group identity in a religious (or covenantal) way when he argues that the gentiles are now children of Abraham and the Jews had become children of Hagar (see Galatians chapters 3&4). Despite their relation according to the flesh, the more preeminent identity is according to faith. Whether we agree or not would depend on how you understand tribal identity.

[@smhbbag1]

This really is the best of the fight last feast network, and I have enjoyed them immensely for years. But this episode was really bad. From the very beginning, they refused to engage with any meaningful opposite worldview. Because it's "hate.". This is not an intellectually serious episode.

[@bobtaylor170]

Probably because anti Semitism never has any rational basis. How can you argue with the irrational? You can't. You can only cite it and denounce it. If America ever turns decisively against Israel, this country HAS HAD IT.

[@smhbbag1]

@@bobtaylor170 what is anti-semitism?

[@bobtaylor170]

@@smhbbag1 how can you say it wasn't an intellectually serious episode if you need me to define anti - Semitism for you? I sense someone in this exchange is being disingenuous. Go gaze at yourself in a mirror and admire your cuteness.

[@smhbbag1]

@@bobtaylor170 no, you are as bad as the "what is a woman" people. I am challenging you to give a coherent definition because I don't think you can.

[@bobtaylor170]

@@smhbbag1( eyeballs rolling ) Okay, Penrod, anti - Semitism is hatred of and unremitting opposition to anything done by people who are Jewish simply because they are Jewish. It is paranoid in that it presumes the existence of a uniformity of mind in Jews, and a conspiracy among them, to subvert that which the anti - Semite presumes to be good.

[@joshmarietta9158]

33:54 you could look at that differently. Where would you rather live not as an American but as a Arab? You probably would not choose Israel.

[@craigsmith1443]

Arabs work and live in Israel. It would be better to be an Arab in Israel then a Jew in Arabia.

[@andyjones1982]

I would hate to live in Israel, being hated by my neighbours and under constant threat of extermination should my leaders stop oppressing them. Dear God what a horrible thing we have done in helping to create the modern state of Israel.

[@craigsmith1443]

@@andyjones1982 Prayer to the wrong God. You meant either Ba'al or Molech.

[@everysquareinchministries4799]

Israeli Arabs actually have more rights than Arabs in many Arab countries. Do your homework and don't make assumptions.

[@joshualister8362]

I think the theology pugcast guys haven't seen the videos of Jews spitting on Christians who live in Israel.

[@jackuber7358]

This week's topic is a bit of a Biblical softball. Glen hit the first causational factor: Satan wanting the death of all Jews to cause the failure of endtime prophesy. The next is similarly obvious: the sinful heart of man (i.e., any inter-ethnic hatred). But Glen demonstrated his historian chops by also pointed out the difference between anti-semitism (i.e., hatred of Jews just because of their ethnos) and being against a community acting preditorially towards other communities based upon a difference in their ethnos (i.e., the Jewish communities in Luther's day acting predetorially toward their German neighbors). One point all too often overlooked--due to the fear of being labeled an anti-semite--is the predilection of a great many insular ethnic Jews to be anti-gentile (i.e., "goy"). And, even labeling any attempt to evangelize a Jewish person as a form of anti-semitism, which by definition is anything but anti-semitism, especially considering the obvious reality that Jesus, being a Jew--and God--commanding such evangelism...to the Jews first... Great show!

[@goyonman9655]

Just say you're an antisemite

[@sk8439]

I hate say it but protestantism and reformed theology by extension has no room for distinctiveness of Israel/Jews in its systematic theology. Replacement theology tends to undermine the theological uniqueness of Israel and makes it susceptible to anti-semitism. Conversely you do not see this amongst dispensationalist. Say what you may about them about their beliefs, one thing you will not find is antisemitism.

[@bretlynn]

our most cringe episode to date

[@goyonman9655]

The most boomer

[@everysquareinchministries4799]

@@goyonman9655 So opposing antisemitism is "boomer?" You'll have to explain that to me. I think it's biblical. "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29) And if you want to focus on "enemies," remember what Jesus said about loving our enemies.

[@joshualister8362]

@@everysquareinchministries4799 All of the men on this podcast started by saying they do not view the Jews as enemies. I agree that we should love our enemies but we should start by agreeing with scripture and actually calling those who reject Christ enemies.

[@everysquareinchministries4799]

@@joshualister8362 Every Square Inch is the ministry I (Glenn) runs. As long as you are willing to be consistent and call everyone who is not a Christian your enemy, I don't object--I think it's misguided, but at least it's consistent. If you single out the Jews, we've got a problem.

[@martyroth2994]

This looks like a struggle session of men laboring under the weight of the fear of man.

[@craigsmith1443]

_an admittedly provocative post Glenn put up_ Was it Herman Wouk who republished the Jewish completion of that well-known line, _How odd of God to choose the Jews:_ _But not half as odd as those who choose_ _The Jewish God and hate the Jews._ I do not know any reason that the post described here should have been 'provocative,' for it sounds to me that Glenn is correct. No Christian should hate anyone, probably least of all those from whom we come, without whom we would not exist. We should be grateful at the very least, but supporting out of love. Antisemitism in the Church is one of those illogical conditions that show that humans do not decide primarily through logic and reason but through emotion. The Church, like the early history of Israel, is susceptible to assimilation through fear: everybody's doing this, so should we or we will be disliked. Besides, we must change the world; how better than to do it than in company with those who are already working to change it. I am the enemy of your enemy, therefore I am your friend. And fear leads us to crave power, the only tool ('weapon,' really, for we soon frame this in the terms of warfare, where all opponents are enemies) that enables us to do the changing, reassuring us that we are in the right. This, along with the approbation of our society, assures us of our virtue. Thus our drive is to and for ourselves, grasping power to change our world into our image for it. The world hates the Jews for no logical reason, therefore it is the spiritual reason that they, with their Law, are a standing reproach to my desires to be like everyone else. This is the theology of hell. And it is in the Church.

[@bobtaylor170]

Marvelous comment. A Christian's hating the Jews is like anyone's hating his parents.

[@44golfreak]

This is literally critical theory in reverse where history is forever. I have to be eternally grateful for an ethnic group that brought forth the messiah even though it’s now 2000 years later and the ones today have nothing to do with any of that and actively oppose him? Plus, God didn’t choose the Jews because they were special in themselves, but they served a special place in history. That isn’t a blank check to respect.

[@bobtaylor170]

@@44golfreak I'm a premillenialist. I think the Bible doesn't leave serious room for any other strict interpretation. The J*ws are God's Once and Future People. And what is it you don't feel obligated to respect? Or maybe a better phrasing of it is this: why do you hate them? Anti - S*m*t*sm ( you gotta do that sort of thing with this dullardly platform we're using ) is at least as anti - God as any other opposition to a given ethnic group, and probably much worse.

[@joshmarietta9158]

Ok so if your going to take the line that Luther was anti Judaism which is fine. I would say that most , at least what I have seen, of todays antisemitism is really anti Zionism. Which is political. There are plenty of Jews who hate Zionism as well. So I would say your building a straw man with the antisemitism. Is there some and has there been in the past? Of course. But I would imagine you would be hard pressed to find many right or left leaning westerners who would fit the actual definition of antisemitism and would overwhelmingly find them to be anti Zionist. As a Christian can you be anti Democratic Party and still love those who vote that way as Christ commands?

[@goyonman9655]

Luther was antisemetic by modern definition Who cares

[@molivson]

Scratch an anti Zionist, find a Jew hater underneath. The USSR pioneered the lie of anti Zionism being something other than hatred of Jews

[@everysquareinchministries4799]

I had people on my newsfeed telling me Jews were responsible for pornography, LGBTQ stuff, and hints that they control the global financial system. That's hardly anti-Zionism.

[@bobtaylor170]

We wouldn't have 750 - 1,000 great American songs if it weren't for Jewish songwriters. And for a music obsessive like me, that can't be overrated.

[@mariaconcepcionrodriguezhe2850]

I was redpilled by this video on that topic: rudolph the jewish reindeer by devon stack.

[@geraldredlinger9176]

Anti-Semites are in sin. It isn't of Christ. Excuses notwithstanding.