Apex Legends Vulnerabilities - Breakdown and Interview

PirateSoftware and ThePrimeagen sit down and talk about the recent Apex Legends vulnerabilities as professionals in the industry. We're joined by Mande one of the top pro-players for the game. Lots of investigation, evolving information, and looking behind the curtain on game security.
PirateSoftware:
piratesoftware.live
/ discord
ThePrimeagen:
/ @theprimeagen
/ theprimeagen
Mande:
/ @mande_
/ mandeow
Timestamps:
0:00 The Videos
2:08 Breakdown
12:48 Recommendations & Remediation
16:26 Server-Side Exploitation
29:33 Call with Mande
59:13 Banwaves
1:04:28 Kernel-Level Anti-Cheat and the Developers
-
Edited by Steets
#Hacking #Apex #ApexLegends

[@Gruesomeb]

Hey Destroyer. If you read this. Just start giving everyone Heirlooms. That should piss off EA even more.

[@timhurtienne7760]

Fr If u want to hurt EA Take away their extremly overpriced Skins. And IT will be fixed in No Time

[@spinneryourdinner]

They can gift apex packs. So give us all 500 and there we go lol

[@IdiotSun69]

Especially if he gives me heirlooms. I bet giving me heirlooms would be the worst thing that can happen to EA, 100%.

[@elfireii328]

Honestly true disable their monetization and EA will get on that instantly.

[@dxzzydxm5518]

@@IdiotSun69 its true! i got word from hideouts that the only reason they dont work harder is because my boy over here has been unaffected.

[@bucky5676]

The Thor dude seems like a super legit genuine dude. The advice he gives, in general, but more so at the end of this video, is incredibly authentic. I wish there were more folks in this world like that. Good shit man.

[@sl1cer]

Thor's stream and videos are exceptional. He speaks really well and is always encouraging and welcoming. Such a great twitch streamer to have on and just listen along.

[@bananarama7319]

One of us. One of us. One of us.

[@Mayhzon]

This guy is amazing on every level. I'm a fan.

[@cevillalta]

Dude you have no idea hes legitimately invested in helping people stop working for the man and make shit on their own, hes going to get killed by the CIA or some shady conspiracy shit like that if he doesnt stop :p

[@porkchop817]

Thor is super solid. Awesome dude.

[@churchofsmile]

22:40 reminded me of when the Division stored all your character and weapon stats in a text file that you could edit however you wanted

[@Crowald]

Good times! God that was so funny.

[@mouthfullofbees6991]

Sounds like such a ubisoft thing to do

[@dusty3842]

I remember that!!!!!

[@Ekdrink]

Ubisoft try to be competent challenge:IMPOSSIBLE DIFFICULTY

[@shoyupacket5572]

that was pretty much all games 15 years ago.

[@scpWyatt]

Prime and Thor slowly realizing the capabilities of Destroyer2009 and his infamy in the community is such a wild ride lmao

[@AH-64EApacheGuardianHelicopter]

He is ascending

[@Chroniclerope]

Especially after the Titanfall issues.

[@lukelashbrook3949]

I just played a game with him on apex tonight. I swear to God. I was making fun of his age.

[@limitbreak2966]

@@Chronicleropewait this is the same guy who fucked up titsnfall? Yeaaaa that’s probably an apex thing in that chance

[@user-in2cs1vp6o]

@@Chroniclerope Wait it's the same dude

[@fleepz3866]

"Im cheating Im cheating!" is such a wild callout

[@fivetriplezero8985]

Yeah I thought the same thing. He didn't say "something is wrong." He immediately recognized it as a hack. Not a possible glitch or even a thought that it could be. This makes me believe that person is familiar with the cheat interface at the very least. The wording of that call out could be a Freudian slip.

[@rubicscube7827]

@@fivetriplezero8985 He somehow knew how to make the cheat loader disappear after it popped up.

[@MonlopoMAN]

@@fivetriplezero8985 you would notice an aimbot or wallhacks instantaneously if you were playing a game, you have spent 1000+ hours in

[@br3nnabee]

@@fivetriplezero8985 I'd say anybody who spends a significant amount of time in FPS games, especially at higher levels where they have a lot more knowledge, they know what that stuff looks like. Like, I pretty regularly see clips of cheaters being exposed or stuff like that, it's not all that uncommon. Plus, it's pretty obvious it's a cheat even from a glance. Suddenly you don't have control of your mouse and it's just lasering down people, and you can see them through the wall? It takes half a second of reasoning to understand what's happening.

[@shalizzle793]

@@fivetriplezero8985 Being high level players in a game that has people that generally cheat sometimes in lobbies, I’m sure they’d be able to recognize an aimbot right away. I probably would and I’m a diamond scrub

[@typicalcyanide]

Thor, your thumbnails might be made in 5 minutes and have Comic Sans for the font, but we love you anyways. Glory to the Goblin King

[@Ptr-ck7if]

glory to the goblin king!!!

[@RealDeadPoolHere]

All hail the goblin king!

[@lukas1963]

comic sans is the best font for the internet.

[@emmastark3285]

Comic sans is actually helpful for dyslexic people

[@outsidethebox262]

Comic sans is better than thor mouse writing.. but we still love it anyway.

[@caffeinette]

It's incredibly refreshing to hear someone advocating for compassion while not invalidating the anger the community feels. Wish I could catch your streams, but I'm happy to have found your YT content.

[@Dr.RojoMcDelly]

Invalidating? Dude get an actual life.

[@wadeo5927]

@@Dr.RojoMcDelly bit of a ironic comment

[@LocalHolehead]

@@Dr.RojoMcDelly Those exist?

[@schoodst6095]

He streams pretty consistently at I think 3-4am EST? and then he streams for around 12 hours,

[@-_-sneezy]

@@Dr.RojoMcDelly Look where you are lol...

[@jkatt100]

And to think not that long ago I remember thinking “who’s private software and why is he in my TikTok and shorts so much?” Now when this happened I thought “I wonder what pirate will say.” Love it

[@rocketfallen]

I really appreciate Thor for his gentle pushback against Mande when he was repeating sensationalized claims (out of understandable fear), pushing against it and nudging Mande into the right direction and saying your piece without needing to call out any specific thing they said or saying anything too confrontational. I also kind of love that it almost became a mini therapy session for Mande for a while towards the back half lmao.

[@steamfeuver]

Yeah, it's really sad that for him, Apex is a paycheck instead of a game he can enjoy. You've built your career/life around playing this game that you have no control or say over, and it was an extremely dangerous investment which paid off for years, but now realizing that Apex was never going to be around forever. He should've pivoted his content much earlier, but now he has to do it when no other FPS games are kind of competing for the space.

[@mav9987]

@@steamfeuvermakes me hope for the finals to pick up traction at some point. i understand the grievances, and the cheating problem is unfortunately bad, but the developers have very real care for this game and show fully that they want to make something all players can enjoy playing a game and supporting a studio like that is really a nice breath of fresh air compared to trying to cater to a mega corporate game where you are just a number and the game is strictly a paycheck

[@jyk8991]

@@mav9987I agree, in this day in age it’s smart to always have a pivot game. These games aren’t conventional sports and don’t have the stability of them either. It’s also hard to predict which games have true long term potential (ie. factors like dev, company, or gameplay issues). I enjoyed The Finals for the first few weeks of beta and launch but soon after the game felt a little repetitive. Although the game is extremely dynamic, it also feels monotonous at the same time. Maybe more unique maps, or gameplay loops would help improve it but who knows.

[@mav9987]

@@jyk8991 needs way more modes. i compare it to overwatch more than i do apex, and what keeps overwatch fresh is its plethora of maps and modes. once they get them going down we can really see people sticking to the game in full

[@amaryllian7853]

A man who has worked both in govt and corp and has damn well learned to be persuasive and gentle

[@TheTruth-xp2of]

About the serverside exploitation section: The code for the things happening in this clip, exist within the game files. 1) Spawning bots. There was a limited time mode for Halloween where you could get two AI companions (Prowlers) which acted autonomously with a simple AI to chase and melee enemies within a certain range of you. 2) Increased squad size. There was a limited time mode, in which SURVIVORS killed by HUNTERS switched sides to HUNTERS, enabling teams of dozens on the HUNTER side. The Hackers just need a way to activate combinations of existing legacy functions in the game.

[@alexnoman1498]

Very good point. Just because none of the buttons in the game assemble a packet to spawn bots anymore does not mean that nobody could assemble one by hand/ with a program. If both of those features are left in, no RCE'd be necessary.

[@Deadgye]

Ah, this makes my thoughts of simply using actual bots less likely. With those, he could use valid commands with invalid context sent to the server.

[@arctictropic1147]

So, pretty much the hacker can use whatever asset the devs have left in the files and create whatever he wants so long as they have existed in said files while making a few adjustments here and there. Apex is his sandbox.

[@user-no7zi5sb8e]

But also, the hacker needed to gather all these bots in the same lobby with his target player, and the game treats these bots as players, which means that the hacker had to use a matchmaking system to get them into the same match with the target player. Doesn't this make it logical to assume that this is a server hack, with some kind of "admin permissions"? It's very similar to what cheaters do in gta online and rdr2 imho

[@3lH4ck3rC0mf0r7]

This reminds me of Smash Ultimate hackers loading singleplayer boss battle arenas to play normal Vs. online matches. The server and other clients simply didn't validate that the stage ID being requested was actually selectable for Vs, that's all. With access to the server RCON, debug commands used by the developers to test server functionality prior to events becomes possible. Commands that may explicitly be designed to allow stuff to be tested out of context, without engaging the game mode they were intended for. The same kind of command used by the original server administrators for all kinds of things, including, but not limited to, banning and unbanning players.

[@Ken-dojitsu]

I work in the cybersecurity industry and also live in the Seattle area. Love your channel, your mission (from my own perspective), someone that actually understands red/purple/blue teams and the role they play in an organization, and how software and application development is deployed and the issues that arise when CI/CD and QA processes are weak with no culture around collaboration across team functions. You get it. You’re a pro. And your opinions and expertise shared on this channel has impacts across the gaming industry. Keep up the amazing work! The gaming community needs more like you to speak up!

[@therevx5225]

Man, this video is blowing up! Mad props for the work and knowledge that goes behind this, you're doing the lords work by getting this stuff the exposure it deserves. I've never made a tip before on KZbin but your shorts always pop up in my feed and your advice has genuinely had a positive impact on both my work and personal life. Figured this is a way I could return the favor, thank you for everything you do.

[@Shadmockk]

Id usually laugh at the sentence "I'm a hacker" but your experience and ability to speak effectively and confidently really help ring home how that honestly an understatement

[@Pointykek]

One of the rare occasions where someone saying "I'm a hacker" is actually exactly that.

[@twostonedactual2541]

​@@Pointykek right. I wish I had that skill set. just got into the PC gaming world and the knowledge to protect myself would be priceless to me.

[@noneed6134]

@@twostonedactual2541 I dont have the best skills, but i rec just double checking if you feel sketch about something. I always just do a small search about files or sites before anything

[@eston3418]

@@twostonedactual2541even if you’re not a PC gamer, the knowledge that you can use to protect your identity and data is priceless. Everyone should be made aware of security.

[@btf_flotsam478]

​@Pointykek It's an understatement. He does more than know the game, he knows the game development, business and even the streaming sides.

[@i_fuze_hostages6]

Destroyer is infamous in the apex community for doing things like dropping bots on streamers mid ranked game and giving people thousands of apex packs

[@meowxeno]

And running his pc cheats on console, he's able to use his pc accounts and hacks on console lobbies and *nobody* but him knows how.

[@Game_Invasion]

they talk about this in the video thank you for reminding me

[@ClassicTophatGaming]

The law needs to be updated to reflux these trolls.

[@Fuar11]

@@meowxeno possibly abusing or exploiting the crossplay system

[@agrape2887]

Damn bruh can he slide me some packs I need my heirlooms 😭

[@CrazzyWarrior]

Thank you for cutting this out from your stream to make it easier to find/watch. I love this content but I would miss it as I don't get to watch every or the entire live streams so I am glad this was shared to get the info.

[@raikuy_jl]

Love how 30 secs into this hour and a half vid you made it so clear as of who you are. I love you men! Congrats on that Steam Award, been watching you since then. Can't believe I spent most of my time on YT and Twitch without watching you.

[@claridge7549]

This is such a fascinating conversation. Having a cyber security expert, in the gaming space, while a major network breach happens, in the middle of a massive esports tournament is such a rare occurrence. I’ll definitely be following closely.

[@eziothedeadpoet]

The servers of Respawn being vulnerable is a story as old as the company. They literally stopped selling Titanfall 1 because its servers are/were trashed by apparently a single hacker. And the Titanfall 2 community kept their game alive by modding the game and adding a custom server browser and custom gamemodes for the game back when the same hackers were attacking the Titanfall 2 servers. Now TF|2 is playable again on vanilla servers but who knows how long that will last.

[@Sorrowgrave]

That's what I find so weird about this Apex's server compromission. 4 months after TF|2 servers are patch it's the Apex servers that are underfire. Imagine if the hacker would find a way to automate waves of bots to render the game unplayable like he automated server crash in TF|2 ?

[@arctictropic1147]

This is the scariest part. It's EA and Respawn's negligence or ignorance of fixing their games from hackers. It goes to show that modders from the community have more control over the game than the people who created them. It's pretty much up to Respawn and EA to figure out if they want to make an effort to care for the breadwinner or simply craft another one and hope it does well financially.

[@ryovite2642]

The fact they still use stryder baffles me. Despite how many times it has shown how its old age is effecting it, they still decide thats its perfectly safe. They just need to fix stryder or take it down.

[@decarus834]

@@Sorrowgrave No thats wrong there was a group that "tried" to combat the "hacker" which they then turned evil to hack tf2 just flooding servers with bots and then did the same with apex and changed the msg of the day to their groups name and they boasted it was all easy cause respawn used the same security layout for all three games all while EA was selling tf1/2 at discount while fully knowing no one could play any of the games for years and apex being down for like 2 days at the same time.

[@weirdkitty1898]

EXACTLY THIS did people forget about titanfall's hackers?

[@benstringer5699]

Your knowledge is unmatched and your natural intuition and experience is beyond commendable and I have learned so much from watching you, Thor. You are incredible. Thank you.

[@drunkensailor7235]

Dude as a fellow security professional, I would LOVE to see more content like this from you. Your knowledge and experience is fascinating and I wanna hear more!

[@lotto5883]

It really speaks to your character seeing your opinion change in realtime as you're being fed new information. Incredible insight

[@jrpgplayer]

It still amazes me how this is praise worthy. Critical thinking education has been compromised.

[@thatjusthappened228]

@@jrpgplayer ermm like seriously they must be literally stupid

[@holyhandgrenade456]

@@jrpgplayer yup

[@armadaparade2503]

More analysis than opinion.

[@tylermorrison509]

Flip flop flip flop

[@thajoker9813]

Man… the care you took to make sure you understood Mande and words of encouragement was really amazing to see. You are such an amazing guy.

[@dixiestix2197]

Thor=best fuse I'll never look at fuse again without seeing Thor's face

[@ericgarza9692]

has experience spoke volumes in his his dialogue with Mande. kept to 100 with him while validating feelings. i can tell ones things for sure. Thor is an amazing boss.

[@stephdodi]

@@dixiestix2197 je de w,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[@Ekdrink]

Gulk gulk gulk. You’re gagging on it

[@xcornstarx]

Thor, after over a decade of working in an ICT Support/SysAdmin role and not feeling great progression, I'm part of site wide lay off but this allows me to upskill... Watching your videos and streams over the past year and seeing your passion for what you do and did in the past, inspired me into pursuing my interests/instincts in security and analytics. I absolutely love it! Thank you for the always informative and enjoyable content, I think I speak for the majority by saying that you're very much an inspiration to to many!

[@joselucascordeiro3083]

Your content is simply amazing. I think i learned more with this video than many teachers in my software engineer degree. Thanks for sharing your experience so openly and in a way so clear and easy to understand.

[@emonTwenty]

This is very interesting stuff. Its really nice to see a dev take on this case.

[@jjsummerz]

He’s not just a dev. He’s also a hacker and a cyber security guy he’s got crazy qualification’s and experience

[@jonathanhoward5284]

Yeah we got that. He said that multiple times in the video. Cool perspective anyways

[@80AM.]

@@jjsummerz no shit shirlock

[@emonTwenty]

@@jjsummerz oh wow, if only he said that right at the beginning.

[@Amy_399]

@@80AM. calm down, they're trying to help

[@sensiclaus3884]

The Thor/Mande crossover! Unexpected but very welcome 🤝🍻👏

[@TremereTT]

Primagen/Thor/Mande Primagen called Thor to get an opinion on the hacks and then they invited Mande to join their talk.

[@moodmusic4life]

Mande just talking gibberish

[@ashwinkumar8995]

@@moodmusic4life He was just giving context, he didnt talk technical... tf are you talking about?

[@FcoEnriquePerez]

Now we need them with Destroyer in a call.

[@xDjembex]

@@moodmusic4life first time I've seen someone not understand what the word "gibberish" means. Impressive.

[@harryfieldson]

On the topic of communication and devs, I haven't played the game in a long while but I will always respect the team at Warframe for how they are able to take one of the biggest spaghetti messes of a videogame and cultivate a relatively positive relationship with the community. The devs are playing and talking in game to people, they're doing livestreams where they directly talk about things rather than avoiding them, they'll say "hey, guess what, that plan we had - you all tweeted us telling us it sucked and you hated it, so we recognise it's a mistake and we're not going to do it", and then they lighten the mood with some memes and human interactions and positivity. Rebecca and Megan from the community team and some of the devs like Pablo who just literally sit on a sofa once a month or tweet reply to people do more than any crafted PR statement or new shiny distraction could ever do to get players on side.

[@MonlopoMAN]

Isnt Megan incharge of DE now?

[@harryfieldson]

again take this with a grain of salt because I haven't been close to the game for a while, but my last understanding was that Megan was community manager and Rebecca was her boss and one of the directors@@MonlopoMAN

[@fltfathin]

the fun part of warframe is that it doesn't hide obvious problems in the game and make it funny instead of make you afraid/ angry

[@Ekdrink]

Warframe devs need to make an actual hard game not a fucking snoozefest. 5/10 game would easily be 10/10 if there was any sort of challenge at all.

[@TheKingofFive]

This breakdown was really cool and the insistence on applying occam's razor before assumptions was respectable. Thank you for the content this was enjoyable to watch and informative

[@TashdacatGaming]

I'd just like to say thank you for listening to Mande's complaints and responding in the way that you did. While I don't know the guy that well it felt like you got through to him pretty well and helped him to sort some things out in his head and get some things off his chest. I feel too much that people have an Us V Them mentality when it comes to defending people in their industry and the fact that you were able to make Mande feel heard and understood while showing him how it all works, why he feels that way, and have him come out of the conversation understanding the other side while still feeling his grievances were valid was a wonderful thing. I sincerely hope more developers and community managers take note of that, as I reckon it'd help make discourse around these sorts of issues calmer and more constructive.

[@SureWhyNot777]

Thor has extensive social engineering experience. He could hate Mande's guts :P

[@andrewdineen9932]

Mande is a pretty chill guy, he never is a negative type but he’s been dealing with cheating for MONTHS to the point where some days he had to stop playing sadly because it was every game, and he is tired of respawn not doing anything ( it feels like they arnt ) but yea it’s nice he listens to Mande and also gives him some intel on the employee side of things was a cool call tbh

[@maxtindal7449]

Super super good conversation. Never listened to long form pirate software before. What a lovely guy breaking down a complex topic in a really good and considerate way towards the players and the company

[@CrypticBore]

I love thor and i love thors ability to be like we shouldnt be claiming we know we dont and also when given new info "oh this changes things". To many people are scared to admit either of those things.

[@Ray-mj5mj]

That’s the difference between amateur and professional.

[@Nubleborsky]

@@Ray-mj5mjmoreso the difference between someone with critical thinking skills and an idiot.

[@Ehh.....]

​@@Nubleborskyexactly, one does not need to be a professional to use their brain.

[@lockinFil]

​@@Ehh..... Professionals use their brain

[@tonyconnor5691]

Is this thors channel

[@JzJad]

Thanks for this, as a fellow cyber security professional its awesome to see you give direction and information to people!

[@officialjerm9122]

I feel like, as a gamer, we really needed to hear all of this. Thank you guys for all of the insight! It really brings a new light to what goes on on the other side of the fence.

[@jPup_]

So rad to finally have an entertaining, prominent voice in the streaming space that can react to things like this with an informed perspective (and inform viewers in the process). So much stuff to digest here, and yet super easy to follow 🙏

[@ValidT]

Fr my number one pet peeve of react youtubers is when they are so uninformed yet try to make these big elaborate deductions or statements on something when they have no idea what they’re talking about.

[@Raistling]

Reminds me of @TotalBiscuit

[@rodkrieger5501]

This is by far the best video about the subject. Literally professionals who care about what they are talking about and not just farming content.

[@tylermorrison509]

He doesn’t know a thing about apex, nor the tournament, nor the streamers. He’s made 3 false accusations in the first 5 mins. Worst breakdown yet.

[@Wolf36181]

@@tylermorrison509 he didn't have all the information. He made conclusions based on what he knew at the time. While he doesn't know apex, he then had someone who does join him so he could discuss and rethink with new information

[@DanielWilczek-nu7ff]

@@tylermorrison509 Considering it's been his job for 20 years, and he was following the process of elimination (basic problem solving, doesn't require his job or training)- you sound dense.

[@linhza501]

@@tylermorrison509 sounds like 5 mins is how long your attention span is.

[@tylermorrison509]

@@linhza501 right, that’s why I watched the whole thing

[@TheGoldenApex]

OMG! The full hour long video! I just found u from apex twitter, and I’ve learned so much! Tyyyyyy❤️❤️❤️🔥🔥🔥

[@scaredstar9127]

I love how you respond, understand and answer back the other guy in call, good video

[@2steezy384]

Some lore on Destroyer2009 Destroyer is a kid who got hardware banned on rust like 5 years ago which sent him down a coding/exploiting rabbit hole. He is a fan of apex who has been developing cheats and finding vulnerabilities in the game for a long time. This level of breach is impressive and I’m curious to know what level of access to the server and or client he really has

[@rileyfurber1739]

Ive seen his name around before in rust too bro wth??? I swear I was griefed by the destroyer2009 on rust ages ago lol.😂

[@mr.jojomunoz6561]

Sounds like something destroyer2009 would comment 👀

[@thecommentor9898]

Didn't he have a stint on Titanfall 2 that as well?

[@Chicken_Dippers]

@@mr.jojomunoz6561 He's just relaying what he heard on Mande's second video with destroyer, doesn't look like many people have seen that video an I advise checking it out lol Another thing destroyer mentioned was having 200 accounts in queue trying to get into the game, so everyone thinking he's "spawning bots through code" are off the mark xD

[@furkanaytan]

Plot-twist: in reality he just compromised 1 employee's pc and 2 streamers' pc, and that's about it.

[@onikrux]

im so glad you uploaded this whole thing, man so many people heard you say "I think his machine is compromised" in the first few minutes- punched it in as a headline and clipped it, and now people think Apex is 100% good and these two just have malware... (WE dON'T KNOW YET).

[@onikrux]

imo, the most concerning thing is that EA/Respawn have said NOTHING in 30+ hrs...

[@onlyonered3242]

We know now

[@aeswere]

@@onikruxThey would probably just say "Dunno, we're looking into it", and since they probably are, what is the point in saying anything?

[@TheVCudi]

@@aeswere that's exactly what they posted last night hahah

[@yogfan1139]

@@aeswerecommunity communication would be the reason i suppose. its kinda more of a courtesy thing?

[@parksharkray]

Great content, Thank you for posting this... it is awesome and refreshing to hear an intelligent opinion on such a rampant subject... Keep up the great work!!!

[@LordofBadger]

As someone who doesn't play Apex I still found this video amazing and basically anything from 59 mins in you could replace "apex" to ANY current competitive game Cod, battlefield etc and it would be accurate and amazing information for all people when facing this kind of issues in games they enjoy

[@olcatgaming859]

Man literally chose the best legend for the thumbnail. Representing all middle aged man in the game

[@user-lj3zk4vy5k]

“This ain’t me first rodeo, mate”😂

[@freecheeseballs]

Fusey 4 lyfe

[@r3ttgaming177]

Man it's really cool that talking about anti-cheat is becoming more mainstream now! As a bonus most anti-cheat devs are huge nerds and truly love thier craft. It's very fun to listen to and when the person talking knows WAAAAY more than the normal player real things can happen. Knowledge is power, and is the players have more knowledge then that can help everyone!

[@idkyet463]

loved this long format video, it's great to have in the background of sp games

[@Al_Kovac_52]

Thanks for posting this Thor. I was checking in about this since someone else was asking about it and you were the first person that I figured would have the best grasp of the situation [outside the company]. I was not disappointed with the discussion. Great insights on the internal workings within a large company. Keep up the great work.

[@Alfred-Neuman]

Nobody seems to have noticed the last option in the "TSM HALAL HOOK" cheat window: ✅ Vote Putin lol

[@Alfred-Neuman]

It seems like the majority of my comments are getting censored on this stoopid website! Anyway, I'm sorry for that... Look at the last option inside the "TSM HALAL HOOK" window. I can't repeat these word here, apparently... I think it might give us a tiny bit of information about the hacker's physical location, or at least from what kind of demographic he is from. edit: That's assuming that cheat tool was made by this/these individual(s), which might not be the case.

[@loganator326]

As a college student in cyber security these things are always interesting and I love the discussion. I always feel like I'm learning more, especially when it comes to the analysis of the issue. Greatly appreciated

[@MTechn1k]

As someone who does security, this is exactly what it looks like (PirateSoftware's handling) - you verify every claim, using all the evidence. He drew out the information from the subject matter experts with perfect questions, building out connections where possible. Trying not to make them certain where they're not. Assumptions will kill you as badly as grumpy employees and phishing attacks will. There is a LOT to learn from watching this.

[@ElPsyKongroo]

Damn this seems way more kaid back than engineering I may have chosen the wrong career 💀

[@MikeOHara1479]

Thor and Primeagen, thanks for bringing much needed clarification to this issue; and stressing on multiple occasions the "trust, but verify" system. As a budding cybersecurity person in my later years of life, this cannot be stated enough. It was also very nice to loop a professional player in Mande into the discussion to get their perspective on this as well.

[@TheWobbinator1]

So cool to see this breakdown. I was really interested to see your full thoughts

[@Lucaemar]

Everything else aside, I think its really awesome how you could, and did, give Mande some peace of mind, great overall advice etc. Ofc you do it for your viewers a lot, which is what I greatly respect, but the guy is sounds so clearly relieved after he could vent a bit and had some of his worries put to rest

[@invictusspark]

Imagine being such a Gigachad in cybersecurity industry and be like: "Nah, my passion is making games and petting ferrets". Like those Ultimate Samurai with unmatched sword skills who become farmers just for a peace of mind

[@benlird2947]

Not the hero we deserved, but the one we needed

[@user-ng1qr4kf2w]

Thor-finn

[@arctictropic1147]

He's basically a peaceful npc who just so happens to also be the most OP character to fight against.

[@yosukehanamura3507]

This is literally the plot of the several games in the Yakuza series

[@blatantdeleter8280]

@@yosukehanamura3507Dragon of _Thor_-jima

[@richis5541]

This is the first ever long video I've seen in on my page from Pirate Sofware, his clips are fucking everywhere for w/e reason, but I just want to say the end of the video shows how good and genuine a human being you are and you. P.S. I sold a WoW account after highschool going into LK don't hate me please, was #1 boomkin in PvE (NA) in BC lol not that I had much competition.

[@MrUniiQueeee]

Really nice talk to listen. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and giving your opinions on this topic. For sure worth a sub :)

[@JPerezi]

I love them bringing in the apex player because it shows both sides on how people are approaching this information. You have the InfoSec/Dev side and the average end user side.

[@JinkyGames]

Mande isn't the average apex player but I get your point 😂

[@A1Chen]

it was so cool to hear two of my worlds colliding weigh in on both the dev side and the player side on the issues that Apex has been going through. thanks for the video!

[@charmilli0n]

1:11:20 This helped me understand a lot of times I have felt this way dealing with other games from other companies. Thank you for this. When explained this way, I almost had a *duh* moment, where some of the things that didn't make sense to me before, do now.

[@Stiwoz]

the weird thing about the whole situation to me is: some days prior to this these players got gifted A LOT of lootboxes (like 10k usd worth or something like it) while livestreaming. It could be possible that these hackers found a way to connect and execute code on the player's clients, but had no way of telling which client was which player. They started gifting those Apex Packs to those who were livestreaming to sort of "connect the dots" and find out which "client ID" was which player. This is just my theory, could also be anything else as Im not an expert, but seems weird to me that those 2 players BOTH received these packs gifted to them merely days prior to this competition.

[@randymagnum8178]

So glad this guy seems to know what he is talking about. So much reactionary content regarding this and people re-formatting (after a quick how do i re format search) their pc.

[@magnum3.14]

What is re-formating?

[@randymagnum8178]

@@magnum3.14 how would i know. Just some word believe I heard somewhere, sounds computerish. There can only by one true magnum btw. Prepare to duel.

[@Zephiren]

@@magnum3.14 When using a new data drive, you have to format it(im not savvy enough to know exactly what formatting does, but it basically allocates space in the drive for the computers to use). Re-formatting means youre completely wiping all data on that drive by allocating that space again. Wiping a drive means there is a high chance of wiping any virusses lodged in it. Wont work on hardware virusses unfortunately but these are extremely rare.

[@randymagnum8178]

@@Zephiren you are a better person than me, i automatically assumed with a question like that ( can easily be googled) the guy was trolling.

[@PerzyYT]

Watched this from Mandes stream yesterday and you blew my mind. Instantly subbed and liked when I saw this pop up on my feed. Thank you for your knowledge and insight!!

[@shinso9010]

I appreciated your break down of this, good work dev

[@masterdude9419]

Even as a non-Apex Player, this video was extremely interesting! From the Support to the Game Devs, to bringing in Mande, this was all done very respectfully and was very helpful in understanding what goes on behind the scenes of ANY online game. Also, though I've never heard of him(as I don't play or follow Apex), Mande seems like an absolute stand-up guy!

[@justinpedersen9174]

you approach these conversations with such empathy when speaking to players. I wish more game companies would communicate with the player base in the ways discussed in this video.

[@sareatonin]

It was genuinely a breath of fresh air being able to hear all sides come together to have open dialogue and discussion about what the problem is, and how each side can play a part in fixing it. Discovering unique similarities because at the end of the day, they share the same goal for wanting games to thrive and succeed.

[@digitalphoenix72]

Very interesting guests to have on, thank you! As a first-time viewer, little feedback I could give as a viewer is to play more of the source videos to comment on, rather than one to two second sound bites..... context is everything. It would be interesting to have his reaction to a 15 to 30 second clip (the first clip where the cheat menu popped up, was so short that I had to go to a different channel to see the context, and the one where Hal downloaded something on his computer was so short that there no context at all). I can't speak for others, but I leave videos when I don't see enough context in order to go watch the full clips and often I dont come back to the original video due to either finding more complete longform content or getting distracted by youtubes algorithm.

[@sontia55]

I am by no means a computer person, and so i always love how Thor explains stuff in a way that is easy to grasp. Very cool video!

[@AverageGmaerDad]

thank you for clarifying the issues and not spreading miss information. it's refreshing to see someone who has a background on these issues and able to explain what's happening "in a simple way" and not jump to conclusions. Me being new here I'm definitely going to be watching more of your content that has to do with hacking since I find it fascinating and uneducated on the matter.

[@GandalffladnaG]

Super interesting to hear your opinion on this kind of stuff. Definitely liked the longer analysis of the situation. It's also nice to hear a better framing of the dev and community relationship, since it is really adversarial in some communities. Thanks for this.

[@KrystalFairyFriend]

This makes a lot of sense, ty for having this interview and breaking shit down

[@World_Class_Jak]

Thanks for talking about the apex situation and sharing some insight from the devs perspective. Having Mande as a guest was great for the viewers and I appreciate the content.

[@alexperrakis]

Insanely quality conversation... I enjoyed every second of it and learned so many new things...

[@Bwlie]

From someone who works in a similar industry and plays A LOT of Apex, im glad there is someone out there, with the backround knowledge to put many minds at ease with this current issue. Super insightful. ty ty

[@chemicalchef-5661]

I can't believe I watched the full video but it was very fun and interesting to watch!

[@Strabury]

This video was fascinating. The technical stuff was discussed in a way I was easily able to understand. Would love to watch more about cheating in games and why it can't be stopped right

[@KisaneNeko]

LOL I watch a lot of ThePrimeagen and a bit of Thor and I watch a lot of apex competitive This is the crossover I've never expected

[@Joeyfield0]

I've never heard of ThePrimeagen, is he talking in the video?

[@Pixelbendr]

@@Joeyfield0 He's the other dude talking to Thor at the beginning/rest of the video sporadically. The other guy who joins midway is some apex player judging by what he's saying about the game.

[@Joeyfield0]

@@Pixelbendr okay thanks, his channel looks interesting i might check him out

[@KisaneNeko]

@@Joeyfield0 as Pixelbendr said. To add context, he is a developer at netflix with a large community on youtube twitch and overall super funny and smart guy. The other guy joining is TSM Mande, but he had a lot of success filling in for apex pros, and this season he was also competing in ALGS with his semi-seriouss team of streamers.

[@Narara_s]

hey Thor. Just wanted to thank you for informing us of the dangers between client side and server side stuff. The video was very enlightening of the situations both developers and players have to face. Know that I will be a part of the community that will see what other activities you want to branch out to as well. Thanks as always.

[@jxrdnz]

I legit listened to this whole thing multiple times through Clara, Genburten, and other players watching on twitch, and i still am just amazed at your level of explanation and knowledge

[@cyberdemon1702]

Yea I’ve been following him for a few months now since his KZbin shorts exploded. The man is the real deal, genuine. It’s almost shocking to find someone so locked in and with so much relevant experience. And he just so happens to be a real good dude who runs a ferret rescue on the side 😆

[@roxtheheeler7918]

Okay I gotta say, it really felt during this interview that this Primeagen dude just wasnt listening to your answers or tuning out. A couple times he flat out ignores questions you ask him in response, but it was still really fantastic and insightful to hear your views and takes on this stuff coz as you say its very much in your wheelhouse. Thanks for putting this together Thor.

[@laugerasmussen8949]

I think its mostly just a case of them not working together that greatly naturally, it happens all the time, people don’t always click or are on the same wavelenghts. They were looking at the problem from diffrent views leading to different interest points. At least I would think so.

[@Ekdrink]

Thor was also constantly talking over him. I wouldn’t want to talk either if 90% of the time I’m cut off.

[@Mempler]

Can we just talk about that apex legends is literally a fork of half life 2's source engine. Its insane how much they developed it

[@airbo793]

Yeah I played for years without even knowing that. Plays so different from Source.

[@v-sync503]

Is it ureal engine with source physicks?

[@Jumoana]

This is is also it's Achilles heels atm, some serious audio issues and more seems to be unable to be fixed.

[@CrypticBore]

So is both titanfall game the engine is crazy and been in c0nt. Dev for decades btw

[@DevlVergil]

I always thought they were using Frostbite...

[@voodoochild1029]

This was really interesting as someone with a tertiary knowledge of security by being in low level IT. It opens my eyes to that there's a lot I can learn about the cyber sec part of IT

[@franciscorodrigues396]

Thanks for shining a light on this whole matter, the gaming community in general needs to open their eyes to the reality that is this whole cat and mouse between devs, cheaters, hackers and gamers

[@babaecalus]

Great talk! Thanks for the insights. :)

[@jeremyjackson7137]

I've been watching your shorts for while and this has been the most fascinating video, bc I love apex and tiranfall and have recently wanting to get into cybersecurity. It is awesome to see you at work and try to understand what's going on, in my favorite game.

[@nobiatus251]

been playing apex since the beginning and started watching your videos a couple of months back... i really enjoy your content and loved your take on the situation... keep giving your intakes and the gaming community will evolve, or at least we'll have certain notions unknown to us thanks for the clarity

[@SlowestGuyy]

This is so cool, to see such an investigation in real time is really interesting

[@SodimRA]

Please make more of these types of video like stream VODS they are amazing to listen to even if it’s just a cut down part of the stream

[@TheAussieLeo]

This was a good interface... A dev, A dev/hacker and a pro player... such a good conversation.

[@deanteague2032]

I learned so much about critical thinking from this conversation. Thanks for doing this Thor

[@SaucySkater]

Love this kind of content. Super interesting stuff, I hope you do more stuff like this!! Keep up the awesome work!!

[@dontewichman5503]

I've been watching your shorts for a while but only just now have been looking at your full length videos. With your experience I'd love to see you break down the issue with destiny 2 cheater issues. Like, genuinely thoughts not just a community member giving opinions. Either way, love your stuff man.

[@crowlsyong]

So much compassion in the latter half of this video. Super wholesome despite difficult circumstances.

[@dannypestolesi712]

It was great that you were able to have the Apex pro on the stream and talk to them and see their take and perspective. They did a good job of illustrating their feelings and perceptions of the game and talking through the situation. I am glad we were able to see it.

[@markbroadhead991]

Such a good analysis and especially the message at the end. Thank you for emphasizing empathy. Cheers.

[@meyhem2001]

I barely, if at all, know about the specifics that Thor talks about how any of this works, but my main point is that I thoroughly enjoy watching his videos just because of his enjoyment for what he does and how he words everything. Thank you Thor

[@LostScarf]

This was a great listen. I didn't know Helldivers 2 is kernel level. That bothers me. It's wild seeing how much Thor's channel has grown in viewership. I remember subbing about 100k because of the shorts. Happy to see it.

[@AFrickingCasual]

Love this video. Dives into every nook and cranny regarding the issue of live-service games, vulnerabilities, all that jazz. entertaining and educational the whole way through. Thor's statements in regards to the attack on developers were perfect and I wish more people reflected the same sentiments online.

[@DJ_SquallYT]

This was a great deep dive and conversation between the player and security perspective. I hope there are more conversations and analyses of the industry more often, to bring light to the public. It's always important to remember devs and people who work in the industry at this level, are people and not the corporate big wigs at the top. Hope to watch more videos like this in the future.

[@andrewaaflaq8210]

Literally every second of this video was absolute gas

[@Jonno8825]

Appreciate the insight, I love gaming (primary Tarkov and MWO) and seeing the otherside of it really helped, Ima thank my favourite devs for the product they put out, not their fault it got set on fire! I'm going to teach my kids the same (you're not taking apprenticeships are you Thor?) love the devs, love the game, hate the cheaters and there game. It is really fascinating how many exploits there are in code, I only had a very basic understanding of code (Myspace peeps represent!) but this helps bridge the gap. Thanks for all you do mate

[@stephenbeaumont-adam7702]

As a game dev who has worked on Core Tech teams, I loved this. Great work from all three or you!

[@geoffreylow5845]

What a great crossover. Thanks for covering it, hope the situation gets resolved for the sake of the game.

[@Hakeil72]

That's probably one of the most interesting stream that I've ever saw

[@DirtyDangleDaryl]

The thumbnail genuinely attracted me into the video. Bravo