Toward an Optimal Spectral Quality for Plant Growth and Development

[@dirigoelectric]

I think you’re my new hero. To hear someone actually give credit to those who helped rather than I, I, me, me, me is great. Thanks.

[@Nelson4207]

To be fair it does sound like they are his employees 😆 but no probs. Enough room for everyone here. Lol 😊

[@AlphaBravo860]

I agree. You have to respect a man/woman who tells the truth. It shows if you're honest & trustworthy.

[@dirigoelectric]

@@syklospore apparently you dont watch the news. Plenty of scientists like the limelight.

[@olysean92]

Right. Steve Jobs was the opposite of this. He worked alone on the iPod-iPhone.

[@Trackie36]

I think its owed that the employer give respect to the actual employee

[@ConsciusVeritasVids]

Thank you for making these video classes available for free online! I always learn so many new things listening to Dr. Bugbee. Each video is a wealth of new information to absorb.

[@chris432t6]

I could watch Bruce's videos over and over and never get bored. He is a great teacher in this field and I have learned a lot from every video. Very thankful for all the info, it is priceless.

[@OMFGandalf]

Dr Bruce kicks ass. I wish I was back in school with a teacher like this guy, I think I might have actually listened in class.

[@armandogutierrez5301]

Word if teacher would be like him I know for a fact that he touches he’s students heart that’s the only way 💯

[@JamesBrown-fd1nv]

I would have been seriously stoned🤣

[@mikerosy6924]

Dr Bugbee, you are a natural teacher and found your niche, we all here can digest all your data with ease. You the man, and master of your craft. Tip of the hat to you kind sir.

[@TheVansar]

In just two videos you just completely shattered my whole (quasi) knowledge of how grow lights work that I gathered ober the years. Not only that, but you gave me completely new foundation to learn more on that topic. Thank you!

[@mahdi1989]

I agree but i still dont know what lights to Use im confused

[@TheVansar]

@@mahdi1989 what do you need it for? Maybe I can help

[@mahdi1989]

I need the perfect lights to grow my salad if u know what i mean

[@TheVansar]

@@mahdi1989 I know perfectly what you mean. what size of the salad box you have, and what budget for grow light are we talking about?

[@mahdi1989]

3x3 meters and the Budget as Low as possible i mean i need good lights for a good price

[@summitmanagementandtrade1820]

Amazing scientific and practical presentation.Tip the hat for you and your colleagues . Full respect for you our dear professor, GOD bless you

[@ralphdavis955]

Many thanks and much respect to all of the scientists involved, for their time, research, and the knowledge shared. Absolutely Appreciated...

[@RandPrint]

I would LOVE to see some similarly represented data as those blue photon % slides but for UVA, very insightful video.

[@patrickgagne8795]

Dr Bugbee's lessons are amazing. Thank you for posting these videos

[@albertastillero1085]

Thank you Dr. Bugbee. I learned more from your simple yet very comprehensive explanation.

[@mxcatkiller]

“Best fertilizer is the steps of a farmer” GOLDEN!! New to the channel, love the great information! Thanks!

[@jayterriblemrlimb18]

I knew a grower that probably heard this SAYING and HE thought to mix HIS own SHIT into the SOIL of his POT PLANT would HELP it ! True story I don't know how it turned out cause we never heard from the guy again.

[@mxcatkiller]

Jay Terrible haha damn! I can stomach animal shit, I can’t human 😂 probably turned out to be the best. Lol I couldn’t do it. Thanks for the story though!! 🤙🏻

[@MurdahBassRecords]

This man is a legend to home growers. Way better than the bro science you get on growing forums. And the fact he a dr./scientist and seems a little batshit crazy like einstein is just the icing on the cake

[@chanimarie6753]

Some of the best light video content in YT. Thank you.

[@vascodawilson]

Thank you for the amazing content it's definitely the best explained video I've ever seen about how plants grow. I'm trying to watch every single video :D

[@1painter4hire]

This Man is a Master in his field of study. Thank You Sensei ..

[@matthewcohen3866]

The uv study is the interesting thing only came across this guy today so i havent seen it yet but he really puts it down how it is

[@Rays_Bad_Decisions]

Matthew Cohen he needs a marijuana research lab license some of his info is not as on as it could be

[@riga69]

@@Rays_Bad_Decisions is there anyone else you recommend watching??

[@christopherparis6841]

@@Rays_Bad_Decisions I'd love to hear how or why or what has you think that. The only other possible things that possibly go further into the truth are cell lab Michigan or NASA since ya know they have made the first led grow light 1981 I think so um ya bud stop smoking start learning.

[@wexoom]

So how much far red exposures can you do to a plant. There must be a diminishing return point? THANK you so much for amazing content and teaching!

[@EbrimaMLSaidy]

Excellent lecture. Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge online. I wish I had such opportunities some 50 years ago.

[@marktaft]

So refreshing to listen to someone who isn't a "growmie"...

[@aaron_craig]

As a working data scientist / gis analyst, amateur astronomer turned indoor farmer, this data is invaluable. Thank you. As scientists, you do not need to advocate for people to change to a new weighted curve. Science dictates to us all that our opinion changes with the evidence presented. Anecdotally, I have only seen results in my own crops that would agree with what you are saying (I run 445nm and "Emerson Strips" of 660nm / 730nm blend for synergy mixed with all sorts of white cct). Introducing UVA and B in flower/bloom definitely appears to trigger a protection response. Thank you again for your hard work.

[@natteradatz]

testing showed that green light can not only reach the bottom layer of leaves and branches due to its high transmittance, but can also contribute to signaling information that reverses the defense mechanism of UV/ blue-light. Even though the dissolved chlorophyll (a and b) absorbs most of the photosynthetic benefits that were lost in the red and blue regions of the spectrum, and more weakly in the green area, we have found that red, then green, followed by blue light are most effective in photosynthesis, based on the quantum yield for CO2 fixation on leaves. This is referenced in the McCree curve as seen in Fig. 2 [2]. Green light can penetrate deeper than blue or red light in the plant canopy due to its high transmittance, allowing light to reach the lower branches and leaves of the plant, as shown in Fig. 3 [3, 4]. Green light is also involved in a reverse defense mechanism that can be triggered by blue light, which influences flowering and morphogenesis [5, 6]. The influence of each wavelength region on photosynthesis is described in Fig. 4. outdated talk.

[@AaronDrake22]

I’ve Learned so Much from these classes I Used to Know Nothing about Lux or PPFD I Had no understanding what so ever Now I Understand Everything And it only took a few Months it was hard to stay focused for the first few weeks but once you start to understand you feel Proud Of yourself

[@mr.c.2602]

Dr Bugbee's videos are helping me a lot to understand how light spectrum affects plants. As a keeper of a planted aquarium, I'd love to know to what extent the information presented here applies to aquatic (submerged) plants.

[@dojostarfox4520]

It pertains in that they would need to be grown in a variety of lighting conditions and carefully measured, controlled, and analyzed to know what light is best for your species.

[@mr.c.2602]

​@@dojostarfox4520 It's not practical for me to do this. I guess what I'm really asking is - has Dr Bugbee or, indeed, anyone done comprehensive research on aquatic plants to determine optimum lighting spectrum and PPF/PPFD? There are many aquarium lighting manufacturers whose products don't appear to deliver light that matches the absorption/action spectrum of plants. Such lighting products often emit light in parts of the spectrum that could, in my opinion, encourage the growth of algae and cyanobacteria (aka BGA).

[@dojostarfox4520]

@@mr.c.2602 Well if the answer proves too difficult too find or to not exist, It would make a fun 500+ dollar project. You could post the results on you tube, make a bit of that back and maybe credited for discovering a certain species' preferred wavelength,. :D Edit: Surely aquatic plants will look significantly different on charts. Especially at greater depths, though thats not relevant here, as light is not only bending and distorting through the water but being selectively absorbed by it.. mainly, ultraviolet wavelengths, though specific chemistry probably plays a significant role as well. Im certainly no expert, so I cant really give you any more than that. =/

[@JamesBrown-fd1nv]

​@@mr.c.2602 Look for Aquashade Pond dye and contact their technical staff. They claim that their proprietary blend prevents specific lightwaves that aquatic plants love. You can possible learn to enhance what they targeted as the problem. I bet they know what you seek.

[@ObiWanCannabi]

i'd love to see some tests done on veg growth and different spectrums. sick of people saying you can't veg ~ 3000k, my experience says it works just fine, even with added reds

[@humanonearth1]

Wow, incredible lecture. As a lover of botany and physics this was really well presented.

[@kevin8poison142]

Second that.

[@elchefreedom5063]

I think I got it all in, while smoking one along with Bruce speaking. Relaxing experience 🤙🏽

[@kevin8poison142]

Not bad . Time floated by and great info clearing my head of rubbish. Very good, seen this guy on MIGRO not long ago. Learn't alot about photons.Yeah, easy on ear.

[@7munkee]

When I was in school in the 70's and 80's, I didn't care about this stuff...I had the sun to grow my cannabis. Now that I'm in my 50's and I have these awesome LEDs available, I am sponging up this information like mad.

[@mackmack2534]

Completely unbelievable, I mean I believe it all, that's what's unbelievable. You are one of the best "instructors" I have ever had the pleasure to listen to and learn from! Boy I wish you was my uncle, we would be buddies for sure! I don't know if it would be fair to ask or an insult but do you grow your own personal cannabis? If you don't you really should :-), As well I would probably pay just to see photos of the plants you "create". To use the word grow would be an insult! Hats off to you professor! Please don't stop doing what you do.

[@michaelransom5841]

Awesome video set... something i don't think you mentioned that i find i have to explain when explaining why red is more photosynthetically efficient than blue despite being less energetically efficient. I'm completely aware that you know this, but maybe to help dispel some of the misunderstanding that perpetuates misinformation, in the future just mention the fact that one single blue photon contains much more energy than a red one, so it takes far more energy to create 1 mole of blue photons compared to 1 mole of red photons. and as i think you did mention, it's the number of photons, not the energy density of the photons, that is the primary driver of photosynthesis. I also want to make sure that people understand that this does not mean photon energy density has no role as it does factor in to some mechanisms, for example blue photons strongly regulate stomatal opening, but not the fundamental mechanisms of photosynthesis. Also, it should be noted that different photons are absorbed by different pigments and as photosynthesis appears to be limited by protective mechanisms at pigment saturation, it may be possible that higher light intensities can be utilized with a properly balanced mix of wavelengths, allowing for a greater total number of photons to be absorbed before hitting pigment saturation (This has not been conclusively shown to the best of my knowledge, but remains probable IMO). Red has another advantage here though as the electron transport chain (absorbance and re-admittance of photons) happens at 680nm, and so red absorption pigments are the most efficient with the highest saturation point. Of course, other than the relative increase in photon absorption efficiency, particularly around 680nm, spectrum is unlikely to be a significant factor in the limited role of triggering photosynthesis, especially if the plant has multiple opportunities for absorption as the photons travel into the canopy. However, spectrum does have a strong influence on overall plant health and morphology, and photosynthetic efficiency as reflected photons are lost photons (unless lucky enough to hit another leaf).. All that said the key point is this, when considering photosynthesis in isolation, at the end of the day, 1 photon equals 1 electron transport, and total of 8 photons of light must be absorbed to reduce two molecules of NADP+, therefore, more photons=more photosynthesis. so the more photons you can make per watt of electricity consumed the more efficient your use of that electricity. (edit)I thought it may be worth mentioning that the emerson effect kind of throws a wrinkle into the previously straight forward statement. As i understand it(i could be slightly off here), as a pigment absorbs a photon its absorption curve is temporarily bumped to a longer wavelength allowing it to absorb an extra photon. this shifts the entire absorption spectrum to the right. If the first photon is red the absorption spectrum for the pigment now extends into the far red allowing the pigment to capture a previously unavailable photon further increasing efficiency.

[@atomictraveller]

i'm a sound person. wavelength tangibly affects transduction/"penetration". i prolly can't give you a satisfactory answer but from my vantage, its comfortable to perceive that a material has a spectral response in the same manner as "resonance".

[@KatariaGujjar]

Far red also signals flowering, if I'm not mistaken. In nature, the increase in far-red is a sign of decreasing daylight, end of growing season. That's probably why the far red causes stem expansion (etiolation), a common sign of the plant shifting gears towards immediate flowering. Good for lettuce, I guess, but bad for spinach and most other commodities greens & herbs. Etiolated spinach and basil tastes terrible.

[@TimTimTomTom]

That actually helped me to grasp the reason why it's the number of photons in a day, not which ones, necessarily. Super interesting, and practical stuff.

[@bluedragon4244]

Love these videos they confirm things i already knew and reminded me of things i forgot teach me new stuff and have proof and actual results to back it up great stuff keep doing what ur doing we love it

[@justme-ud2vk]

I had never thought my lighting would effect the shape of my plants. I ignorantly assumed that was genetic. Thank You.

[@dojostarfox4520]

I mean yeah, genetics are the main thing determining the shape of your plant.... they are the plant. The specific light balance cause the plant to react in different ways, reactions essentially determined by the genetics of the plant. Genes are basically little instruction manuals for cells to reference and act on... a program.

[@feliperodrigoelguetavidal3267]

I'm taking a mastering degree. Now i know i want to be like you.

[@joshsimpson10]

I'm an indoor hemp flower producer. This tickles my fancy

[@fadedmass1662]

The light spectrum is really nice. I feel spectrum is far more important than intensity and spread. This light hits all the marks.

[@dabomb2000pacman]

I watch his videos all the time. Stay on your game

[@jthreviews4u]

Thanks Again for another video and i hope to see more as you go ... A much needed crash course for many ppl they just don't realize it !!!!!

[@armandogutierrez5301]

Thank you DR!!!! For help us change from brosis science to actual science (brosis science is all these year the cannabis community have had to pass knowledge from sis to bro with word of mouth 👄 know we are getting facts and it warm my 💜) 💯🥳🖖🙏

[@fadedmass1662]

I found the channel I been looking for. Notebook and pen ready.

[@kaiyack]

Pure Gold. Thank you, Professor.

[@ryank2434]

Your lectures are very informative and well worded. Thank you so much for these.

[@polecattgenetics6252]

@8:00 You mentioned that the far red spectrum enhances cell expansion & blue inhibits it. I now know how to maximize my vegetative growth (via colour spectrum), but which colour on the spectrum will actually swell the bud size late stage in cannabis? Thank you for such informative videos, your hard work will help many!

[@nexstia5834]

Hi, you have already answered your question! High red spectrum is the best is flower stage, my personal favorite is HPS for this stage. It requires alot of Watts but by far the best In my opinion. So, nanometers 600 to deep red.

[@polecattgenetics6252]

@@nexstia5834 Thanks, I needed some confirmation. We have a test room(8'X9') still in week one of flower. I have been trying to make use of your research, along with NPK Industry's nutrients with great success. Personally I have been growing cannabis for 17 years, at 31 years of age I am always open to new ways of improving medication for my patients. Cheers from Canada, keep up the good work.

[@TheTukkia]

@@nexstia5834 Have you watched the video?? Specifically at 11:00

[@billyballsup2685]

@@TheTukkia does the height of the light determine the colours the plants are getting for them to be taller or shorter.

[@henricusinstitoris2325]

Great to learn what’s really going on and see what the new studies are coming out with.

[@jdmaxeyOK]

Amazing videos and work that you’re doing. Thank you and your team for sharing your hard-earned knowledge. Looking forward to your next discovery!

[@Civilsitis]

Good for you Dr Bugbee . You support your two young scientist.

[@pamelajohnson5056]

Thanks Dr. Bruce, just found you. I have a lot of catching up to do

[@benhere1326]

Very valuable information thanks for the lessons

[@EAster33]

ur the only person i watch at 1.5x-1.75x that naturally speaks slowly!! most ppl just want watch time lol

[@natteradatz]

he effectiveness of green light’s impact on plant phytochemicals was also observed. A team led by G. Samuoliene demonstrated the increased effectiveness of green LED lighting (505, 535 nm) on vitamin C, total phenol, and tocopherol content as compared to blue light (455, 470 nm) for baby leaf lettuce [7]. As green light is efficiently transmitted through a plant’s tissues, it may also trigger desirable reactions when not directly exposed to light stimuli, such as the metabolism of antioxidants. Even though the influence of light quality on plant nutrition varies by crop or cultivar and is dependent on the growing season, the positive response of phytochemical formation with both blue and green light is demonstrated in various leafy green vegetables [8-11]. Fig. 3 shows how certain spectra including UV and infra red influence groups of plant compounds [12].

[@Sect76]

Fascinating, thanks Prof Bugbee.

[@letsgrowtogether473]

Thank you very much for sharing Dr. B

[@MrJzWilder]

Who didn't like this video...? So you don't like scientific studies that identify facts? LOL This is an epic source of information, he should have 1000's of likes and no dislikes.

[@geoforgan280]

Amazing educator

[@sitapea32167]

Thank you for the clear lecture! I did not understand about the UV leds though... Why do they become valuable??

[@erikfrias5148]

I believe they become valuable when added at the right time

[@tim8751]

Another great video, wish I had found you sonner!

[@alwan321]

BIG THX FROM FRANCE..👍🌿

[@wowiealbarracinmcclaskey5392]

I watch all your videos I live drbugbee videos Thank you for all you do A hemp farmers asking for Christmas help Soon the Chinese were will take the hemp cbd market from us to We used to be a nation who help each other Now no People would rather let them rust than donate help It’s a sad time in history’s

[@kenwork3323]

Incredible, things that most take for granted. Just flip the switch to see. Thank you .

[@Flamingpiano]

This is really cool, I wonder how a blue + far red spectrum would compare to a middle one for the plants.

[@lghammer778]

Thank you Dr.Bugbee, great lesson 😃

[@reecemccullough4829]

I wish I was in the US. I would come study at your University. Fantastic lectures and exciting biology.

[@brucewayne1820]

I would love to see the results of adding/Injecting FR into the flowering cycle at different times to see how it effects the yield and Cannabinoid count. You found a friend and admirer in me!

[@ObiWanCannabi]

i have some near far red with 3000k in veg, works real nice, a patchwork of 3000k with reds and 4000k in my flower room in a 4x2, get to control the density of light depending on the time of year, summer i run the reds harder the white is a supplement for extra lumens with little heat, come winter ill ramp them both up, for a little heat but mostly to get the extra penetration of the 4000k, my plants run node heavy and very little stalk, theres a bit of spread when i switch to flower but i like shrubs rather than tall plants, keeping it a "darker" light in veg stopped them trying to grow tall, about 1cm node distance, alot more spread sideways than trying to gain height. i think the far reds made the plant think its under a larger canopy, triggering it to spread to capture more light, if its getting bright white light it thinks the skys clear, lets gain as much height as i can while i can.

[@50sorrowC]

Such great knowledge and for free! Thank you so much!

[@mefirst4266]

I DO NOT EVEN GROW POT BUT YOU MAKE ME FEEL LIKE A GOOD PROTON WHEN YOU LECTURE..............

[@jamesgroves4919]

growing gardening the best way

[@GrowingAnswers]

Right up my alley. Thanks!

[@Aaron-zk2wu]

The thing I don't see discussed with regards to lighting is a cost analysis that considers the cost per watt of initial purchase. While HPS is less efficient in generating photons that the plant can use, they can be acquired wholesale at sometimes as low as 1/10th the price of the most efficient LEDs. Even when you try to optimize LED purchase price, HPS is still many times cheaper per watt, and at something like 10 cents per kilowatt hour, it can take many years before the cost saving from using less power catches up to the difference in purchase price. If your goal is to get as much light on a given budget over the next year or two, HPS seems to absolutely destroy LED.

[@rsj3039]

awesome information, Thank You. Currently running IR & UV on this run

[@davedefrost2174]

Wear protective covering over all your skin when in your room working when your girls because to much UV will give you skin cancer

[@ryanford3564]

If anyone has seen any studies on diurnal or seasonal spectral variation, and how it affects plant morphology or phenotypical plasticity, I would love to know more about it. Particularly how the percentages change throughout the day due to Rayleigh scatter.

[@ja-wj9qy]

Dr.bruce if ilove things or dreams that ifeel in my life is you...Sir...you are God

[@kkaixer]

you Sir, are a hero

[@RT10Viperman]

Very useful information. Thanks Dr Bruce

[@Wiggi147]

I love this guy.... brilliant and mesmerising display. Superbly informative and gripping analysis. Beautiful. Now I gotta go see about a girl!!😄💪🏼🙉❤️

[@heretikpapy]

Woaaaaa you teached me sooooo much in only 22min !!! THANKS !!!

[@toddstevenson8566]

Many thanks for the fascinating knowledge

[@saradc9269]

OMG I love your videos, thank you very much, i'm learning a lot.

[@goodgoat3096]

I see the light! Seriously, very interesting and helpful.

[@kevin8poison142]

Sure was.

[@lassef3692]

You for sure deserve the 👍

[@hodenhorst6077]

Very cool. I love your lectures on pot-light-spectrum-THC-efficency. Someone should dedicate a pot-strain to doc Bugbee - something like "Bugbee critical" ;)

[@baggedtuned8569]

OG Master Bugbee

[@madvanduzen653]

always great vids and worth the watch

[@josephcoon5809]

6:00 Unless you are looking at the plants all the time, green photons seem like a huge waste. Seems like lamps with switched green LEDs would be far more efficient by allowing you to see the plant under white light only when necessary. 14:00 Were those samples controlled for other inputs, especially nutrient? What are the specific mechanisms powered by blue light, and what other inputs are part of those mechanisms?

[@JesseJames83]

Awesome video! Thank you for making this!

[@kevin8poison142]

Good stuff.U make it simple and informative. Good interview with Migro too. Value your work and presentation.

[@greenthumbgaming]

awesome content

[@rocketpoolpki]

Fantastic research and superb, easy to understand presentation...just like us, they adapt, improvise and overcome. Are the plant adaptations reversable? Does the plant always carry enough genetic information to revert to it's previous state of photosynthesis or will it slowly become adapted to it's new enviroment and stay there? Regarding the stunting of growth due to UV exposure, is there a "cut off" point or will ever increasing amounts of UV continually hamper growth untill it stops altogether? How much UV and far red are available at night time outside? I realise that UV/FR are not simply homogenous lumps...I'm chomping at the bit to find out more.

[@atomictraveller]

small time here, used UV-B reptile lights for years in micro chambers and my observation correlates to increased trichomes. sparkly ass sativas at least. nothing seemed to be dying or shying away. i threw a 5W 740nm LED on my tiny diy light and plants grew straight at that. there wasn't a lot of room to avoid it but plants saw it as good.

[@norvillerodgersspeaks]

Great video. Perhaps you should continue your blue fraction to full blue light. Would be a more powerful graph. -undergrad biochem student

[@kylematthews3683]

At 10:00 he says blue chips--not fixtures--are efficient. What does this mean? What is an led fixture and how is it different from chips?

[@trillykolla8347]

Set video playback speed to 1.25× and thank me l8er 👋 great video!

[@aayatwomenchildrenshospita6179]

White cool light has more blue . So which one is better white cool one or white warm led ?

[@Jabondekk1]

genial, saludos desde Chile

[@annilofo6421]

The pyramid look like a pinkfloyd albums picture love your lessons Thanks Doctor

[@thomassiegfried5409]

It's called a prism, around wayyy before pink floyd.

[@CSFRazielCSF]

Would love to be able to download these slides! Are they available to download? Thanks! Great Video, Dr. Bugbee.

[@philtseng3563]

Get the top brands (Fluence ,Gavita or Fohse) LED growing light at one third of their price

[@scalllywag4206]

What led do you guys use for reproductive cycle??

[@trfootwear7747]

U doing excellent job..i have a question.... i m growing rose indoors... flower bud not blooming....which light will help to bloom rose bud.

[@nihilityjoey]

Did you watch the video?

[@trfootwear7747]

@@nihilityjoey yes watched but i cant understand fully as my english week...so please how to bloom roses indoors

[@michaelbogdovitz9479]

Thanks for these videos. Very informative!

[@cavcexecutiveoffice3721]

love all your videos thanks !!!

[@PedroGomez-oc6iv]

Hello Bruce. So I have a led light with veg and bloom modes. By what you're saying I should put both modes on from when my plant is a seedling until my plant starts blooming? Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[@mitchrenton8330]

What about defoliation practices after day 21 of flower? Has there been any recent papers 2005-2023?

[@onehitdone7446]

Would you have any thoughts on spectral effects on Cannabis / Hemp Flower Density? It seems there is a disconnect between photosynthesis and flower density as most growers are stripping the majority of their leaves by the time final flower development is taking place. The bit about the thermal radiation skews these results in the eye of many. Great job bringing all of this information forward for more people to study!

[@atomictraveller]

many people in the modern world are sadists and/or actively mislead/foil other humans. "tuck, don't fuck" maybe.. removing leaves.. i dunno.. i've put in a decade on icmag et al. but i still think those guys are douchebags. some pruning might yield a response but i think these guys are ballbags.