[William Lane Craig] Q&A - What is hell? Can a good God be compatible with the reality of hell?

[@lamginlenginsimte3283]

The most satisfying and reasonable answer I've ever heard

[@LaurenFrancesHair]

please don"t ever retire wlc!

[@oscarcoronel3021]

He cannot retire, this race is until Christ

[@VCityglobal]

He’s a Gem! An icon

[@LiftingForLife]

Craig is a professional evidential apologetic, but he's a presuppositionalist at heart. He states in his book Reasonable Faith that "(...) the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true. And while argument and evidence can be used to support this conclusion they cannot legitimately overrule it."

[@RobotMowerTricks]

He made a mistake in his Bible reference. No one is perfect! 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

[@neosoontoretro]

What are you talking about? How does no one being perfect negate the possibility of Hell? That doesn't make any sense.

[@DruPetty42]

I don't think he said that anyone was perfect except God.

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Yes, eternal destruction . They will be raised and judged then receive the second death, which is their destruction which excludes any chance of life again. They are destroyed and that consequence is eternal. How does a just God send people to heaven? Calvary. A just God destroys the wicked. And that is an everlasting destruction. And an exclusion from the Resurrection and the Life. And His Light is the light of men.

[@steliosmitr8245]

@@Jamie-Russell-CME what does that mean, so what would happen to the wicked?

[@JTW3D]

@@steliosmitr8245 they will be destroyed! Not to be alive again. Read John 3:16 also. The most popular bibleverse. It speaks about people being perished. They stop existing. Annihilated!

[@JV-jq4dt]

The dilemma is not between Gods love and Gods justice, but between Gods mercy and Gods justice. 1 Corinthians 13:6: “love does not rejoice in iniquity”. This means that Gods love and Gods justice are on the same page. Mercy and justice however, are not on the same page, they create a dilemma.

[@samuelcallai4209]

"... where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:48b. This idea of hell being only a separation of God and goodness is just a way to soften it, making it seem less terrible than it actually is.

[@maarnakhthehun]

Though I absolutely love Craig, I don't like the way many theologians today make God look like a good cop and a bad cop..one of them being loving and lenient, and the other wrathful and vindicative. I'd say God's justice flows from His Love, which isn't just another of God's attributes, but His very nature. And true Love requires Justice. So what I see on the cross is nothing else than God's fully expressed love.

[@daviddemelo6835]

Hell is not a place of "punishment" but a mere exclusion of God by choice, that would ultimately lead to pain and suffering and all of that, because where God is not, there evil resides..

[@xneutralgodx]

mt 25:46 It is eternal punishment~ Jesus Christ . It is not having eternal life/existence suffering in a lake of fire forever but rather the death penalty you will be left as ashes

[@containeduniverse]

The ungodly will pretty much be reliving the carnal thoughts/actions they had over and over. They'll be full of grief from the fact that salvation was SO simple to obtain (follow only Him and His orders) and be left in a darkness unlike anything we can imagine with everything and everyone that was against the one who loved them (including satan). satan hates mankind and is envious of us having been given Earth.

[@paultokjian7915]

Actually G-d would be everywhere. Including in hell. David spoke of this in the Psalms. There is another verse in the bible that speaks of satan and his angels being tormented in the lake of fire with the unbelievers in the presence of G-d.

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Where God is not, there is no life "For I am the Resurrection and the Life." -the Word of God "You shall NOT surely die! Hath God said?" -the Father of Lies

[@sandina2cents779]

I think a lot of people forget, or don't want to acknowledge that they are not alone in hell. There are a lot of demons that hate them that are there with them, and they can do anything to people that they want to without ceasing and I'm sure they do.

[@sniperontheroof123]

Doesn't "perfect justice" require that the punishment fit the crime? Why do people go to hell *forever* for sins and crimes that caused obviously finite harm? Additionally, isn't there an immense amount of moral luck from people who end up in hell because they sinned and then were struck down by natural disasters, as compared to those who sinned and survived long enough to repent/etc? Isn't god rolling the dice when someone people get struck by lightning but might have repented had they survived?

[@obviouslyinvisible]

Hi +Will Allen, *1*. To answer your first question, please consider these possibilities: a. "[T]he rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior, being a rejection of God Himself, is a sin of infinite gravity and proportion and therefore plausibly does merit infinite punishment." b. The damned in hell accrue further punishment by continuing to sin. Read more: www.reasonablefaith.org/do-the-damned-in-hell-accrue-further-punishment *2*. Your second question is addressed here: "How can God condemn people who through no fault of their own never had the opportunity to receive Christ as their Savior? A person's salvation or damnation thus appears to be the result of historical and geographical accident, which is incompatible with an all-loving God. "This objection is, however, fallacious, because it assumes that those who have never heard about Christ are judged on the same basis as those who have. But the Bible says that the unreached will be judged on a quite different basis than those who have heard the gospel. God will judge the unreached on the basis of their response to His self-revelation in nature and conscience. The Bible says that from the created order alone, all persons can know that a Creator God exists and that God has implanted His moral law in the hearts of all persons so that they are held morally accountable to God (Rom. 1.20; 2.14-15). The Bible promises salvation to anyone who responds affirmatively to this self-revelation of God (Rom. 2.7). "Now this does not mean that they can be saved apart from Christ. Rather it means that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to them without their conscious knowledge of Christ. They would be like people in the Old Testament before Jesus came who had no conscious knowledge of Christ but who were saved on the basis of his sacrifice through their response to the information that God had revealed to them. And, thus, salvation is truly available to all persons at all times. It all depends upon our free response." Read more: www.reasonablefaith.org/can-a-loving-god-send-people-to-hell-the-craig-bradley-debate God bless you!

[@sniperontheroof123]

1. Doesn't Craig himself reject the possibility of an "actual infinity." This would include infinitely bad sin. Additionally, how could something that causes finite harm (e.g. one murder, one instance of adultery, etc.) be infinitely sinful? 2. The difference (in my example) isn't between those who have heard the gospel and those who haven't. The difference is between two otherwise identical people: Person A sins, repents, and goes to heaven. Person B sins, would have repented, but God struck him down before he could do so. Person B goes to hell. The only differentiating feature between person A and B is luck - they both have the exact same intent and would both have ended up in the same place based on their behavior alone. The only difference is God sent B to hell by killing him.

[@obviouslyinvisible]

Will Allen 1. Craig acknowledges that infinity is not a number. Think of a number _x_, you can always think of a number _x_ + 1. That new number has a value, which is not infinity. The number line is boundless. God is boundless. Thus, it can be argued that a sin against God is boundless. 2. Craig says in my earlier post, "And, thus, salvation is truly available to all persons at all times" Are you saying that person A was saved, sins, loses salvation, repents and is then re-saved? Person B was saved, sins, loses salvation, does not have time to repent? Many theologians teach that a person cannot lose salvation. "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Ro. 10:9 HCSB) "For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9 HCSB)

[@sniperontheroof123]

1. How does "sin against god is boundless" follow from "God is boundless?" Sin is still finite harm... 2. No...let me clarify: Person A sins, survives a Tsunami, and is then saved. Person B sins, dies in a Tsunami, but would have been saved had he survived. It seems like the only difference between B and A is the Tsunami, something completely out of their control, but B goes to hell anyways.

[@obviouslyinvisible]

Will Allen, 1. Are you saying that sin always does finite harm? Here is a counter-example: 1.1 Suppose Adam had a perfect record of not sinning. 1.2. Then, one day Adam sinned. 1.3. Adam no longer has a perfect record. His prefect record has been ruined for eternity. 2. Before we discuss further persons A and B, the more important question is the following one: Are you saved?

[@gmn545]

Punishments should be appropriated to the seriousness of the crime", however, who is Craig to assume "the denizens of hell continue to hate and reject God", given that for quite a large number of them, they only came to a knowledge of God upon death & judgment? Who is he to claim they couldn't have a change of heart, especially after serving a tormenting sentence in an abode like hell? I don't see how eternal imprisonment without a chance for parole (for lack of a better word) is loving.

[@danielcartwright8868]

"How could a just God send people to heaven?" Is not a hard question when you consider that God understands how imperfect we are. The only scenario in which that question is hard is a scenario where God has unfair expectations of humanity.

[@davidnewhart2533]

I don't think you understand at all. Everyone is a sinner; we broke God's law and Jesus paid the fine. When you truly put your trust in Christ, you will get the desire to not sin anymore.

[@tsarbomba7585]

@@davidnewhart2533 you will never get the desire to sin any more ? Even Paul says " For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing".

[@jeffreylin1491]

This is what William Lane Craig said on his website: "The brevity of time it took to commit the crime is irrelevant; it’s the seriousness of the crime that matters. Punishment should be apportioned to the seriousness of the crime.

[@Melchiorblade7]

Many great theologians fancied at the idea of Hell being merely eternal separation from God (albeit with variations). WLC has an earned Theological doctorate from a significant German seminary. He certainly knows what the bible says.

[@j919or]

Some people see the error of their ways and are grossed out by evil and ask GOD for rescue. GOD promptly complies at great expense to HIMSELF and this causes that some to be forgiven and forever inoculated against evil and in love with GOD which is total bliss forever. Others refuse to admit their evil and be grossed out by it and remain seeking someone to blame and substances to numb the misery

[@karinas.1320]

"If god simply blinked at sin, he would not be perfectly just...every sin, every wrongdoing in the universe will receive its just deserts." Sorry but I refuse to accept the idea that I deserve to be punished for not believing in some invisible man in the sky who gave no tangible evidence of his existence. Or that that's on par with actions like murder or rape. I wish I believed in God and I've tried to but I just can't. I refuse to believe I deserve to suffer for this as it is not a decision I made.

[@bethr8756]

Who gave no tangible evidence of his existence!!!???? You've got to be kidding. How about the universe for starters???

[@m-zap1332]

I like that he turned it around. Should a just God let everyone into heaven? Shall the guilty go unpunished? Should Hitler and Stalin be let into heaven despite killing millions of people? Should anyone of us be let into heaven despite the fact that we sin and do evil all throughout our lives? Of course not, we are not worthy of going to heaven, we all deserve to be punished for denying our creator and disobeying Him. God is just and he's the ultimate judge, we are all guilty of various and multiple sins and since God is just, he must to punish us, but because he loves us he gives us a way out because he wants us to freely return to him so that we can live in his presence once again like he intended in the garden. This way out is the free gift of salvation through trusting in his son Jesus Christ who literally was on earth 2000 years ago and took our well-deserved punishment upon himself so that we could go free on that judgment day, but we must trust in him in order to be saved. If we deny him then he will deny us, so humble yourselves and repent.

[@dragilxcom4176]

I'm not God, but if I'm a potter and created a bad pottery, any vengeance and judgment will ultimately reflect my own inability to create only good pottery. I'm sure God is perfect, I'm not sure why would He judge his own perfect creation.

[@m-zap1332]

Gabrul Dooh No, it would just reflect that the freedom of will that you gave to the humans you created is being used to do bad things. God is responsible for the FACT of freedom, but humans are responsible for their ACTS of freedom. All the evil in the world is not caused by God but by the people who were given the ability to choose what to do (instead of being robots).

[@dragilxcom4176]

Mapajas But the ACTS are foreknown and approved by God to be carried out by us. (Jeremiah 1:5). God the omniscience knows how each of us will end up before He even create us. So why the would be sinner still gets created? If it is a matter of free will which was given to us, is such ability to choose a faulty feature? It's kinda like in the movie Terminator, where Skynet is made self aware and able to go against its creator. The skynet creator was the imperfect human, and human make mistakes. But, how could God makes mistake by letting human to sin and still punish them? I believe in God, but I'm not sure hell is a place to torment soul eternally.

[@m-zap1332]

Gabrul Dooh But evil is a necessary byproduct of free will and God must allow us to choose if we want to do the right thing and obey him or do things that he dislikes (evil). Those who choose to continue living in sin will disappear from this earth and those who have chosen to receive Jesus as the Lord and savior will live in harmony. One of the reasons why we have free will is so that we can choose to obey God or not. If we don't then we will cease to exist, if we obey him then we will be saved.

[@dragilxcom4176]

Mapajas I think many Christians view of free will is short sighted in looking at the implications. Yes, freewill exist and it is the reality of our journey in life. But we must not forget that we are created by God who knew what our final choice will be. I agree that evil is necessary. In fact, good and evil are the consequences of having intelligent & knowledge. I already exercise my free will to choose God, but there are those who side with evil. The thing is, God already know what each of us will choose *before* He created us. It is just like if I'm about to put the dough in the oven to make bread & I realize it is 1 cup short of flour, I won't waste time baking it then throw it away because I know it will turn bad, right? So why God keep baking the would be bad bread? In the view that God is the most loving & righteous, I kinda think that: 1. Good can definitely exist without evil, but evil shines good, it contrast good very well. Evil is an expected role to be played by some, just like the role of Judas or anyone like him is necessary to Jesus salvation. 2. Unless there are better explanation, therefore the most loving God can't possibly take pleasure in tormenting soul in hell for eternity. I don't doubt God's motives of creating both human destinations, the elect and the doom.I'm sure it's all for good reasons. It is just a mystery to me. What is the point in having judgement?, hence the Hell concept as an eternal torment of punishment is rather unlikely to me. If as you pointed, they simply perish as in no longer exist, it then seems make more sense. They have done their necessary participation for the greater glory of God.

[@gmn545]

I'm aware of Molina's middle knowledge: God not only knows both all the possibilities as well as how things would actually turn out, but he also knew how the free will would actually act under all possible circumstances. I find there to be some philosophical problems with it, but in any case, if 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 are really true, then I don't see how never-ending (think about that) punishment can be what a loving God would sentence anyone to, if they had a change of heart later on.

[@jeffreylin1491]

Continued from previous: "Even if God does allot a finite punishment for every sin, still, since the denizens of hell continue to hate and reject God, they continue to sin and so accrue to themselves more punishment, so that both sinning and the punishment go on forever. Alternatively, the sin of rejecting God Himself is a sin of infinite gravity and proportion and so plausibly merits an infinite punishment." Hope that helps!

[@Roper122]

Short answer..... listening to William Lane Craig over and over.

[@nicholaswhitson3225]

Let me turn the table on all the atheist on the question "why would a loving God send people to hell for eternity for only a finite time in earth?" How bout this... the SAME God who will send you to HEAVEN for eternity, although your time on earth is finite! None of us deserve to be in eternity in heaven, but God wants us to be in eternity with him. So yes hell exist, no God doesn't want you to go there, no God doesn't send you there. YOU SEND YOU THERE! By your free will which is a gift from God himself. So choose wisely my atheist friends...

[@madambutterfly7513]

Nicholas Whitson - well said!!

[@ΜάριοςΛοϊζίδης]

@Olumfemi Daniyaa this has nothing to do with free will. The first part of the verse shows clearly free will. The second shows the final conclusion and decision from God. God knows us and watches us and gives what is just. The verse could also be taken as the description of the mere incapability of people to understand and choose from the beginning.

[@wechulipaul]

This is ridiculous. I didn't ask for an eternity in heaven. When I die, I expect to remain dead. You have to do some sickening mental gymnastics to make your morality work.

[@gmn545]

I read it. The problem I'm talking about is presuming that for all "lost" human beings, that they will never - for all eternity - have a change of heart. It has to be a case-by-case, not generalization or appeals to Isaiah 55:8. Fact is, some people are sincerely willing to accept God, once they have truly convincing reasons to do so. If that isn't provided, how can they be damned? For some, the only "gospel" they will hear is from (in Craig's view) false representatives (mormons, for example).

[@americanexploring7440]

Hell is eternal death. The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life.

[@breatheeasily4013]

Where do we live eternal life? Is it in another place but earth?

[@defaultuser9423]

God doesn't send people to Hell. Hell is when a conscious being separates itself from God out of free will, then it is left to bear the torment of that separation. That is rightly defined as Hell. People who are in Hell or going to Hell have condemned themselves. There is no help possible for them

[@therealawakener7]

Hi there, don't you think that your comments here are totally wrong? If hell did exist (which it doesn't) but let's just say hypothetically that it does, in it's poetic sense as a place of eternal separation from God in fires of torment, lol, then God must have sent people there because according to you God would have given mankind a freewill to choose to do so in the first place, so it has to be His fault ultimately. Your statement is illogical and totally unscriptural and it's sadly for you also blasphemous to boot. Many people will see the 2nd death, the lake of fire but, they will go there to be corrected by God's holy spirit, God's judgements are good, good for correction. God isn't a failure as a parent, far from it, God chastises all His children and ultimately will correct them all, (Acts 3:19-21, Heb 12:7-9, 1 Tim 2:3-6). Hell is a false pagan myth erroneously and deceitfully placed into modern bible translations of the scriptures, of which Jesus NEVER spoke of nor is hell in scripture. Jesus didn't waltz around Jerusalem endorsing pagan myths, Jesus spoke only of 'Sheol' the place of the imperceptible, and Gehenna fire an analogy he used comparing death in one's sins to the the seemingly unquenchable fires of the city rubbish dump in the valley of Hinnmon. I urge you to do more research before you slander God and Christ and influence people with unscriptural nonsense. Those whom will go to the lake of fire will go there not because of a supposed freewill but rather they will go there because of there plain and simple will. Choice isn't freewill, no one has a will that is free from causality and the power of God... NO ONE!!! Give me one example of such a phantom either from scripture or in secular reality. Please demonstrate to me how exactly your supposed phantom freewill works for you in your everyday life. Good luck, you're going to need it.

[@kasparov937]

LMA UK What of all the Near death experiences reporting the experience of hell?

[@Iwastoldtherewascake]

I like when people say free your mind and then critisize those that believe in god.Its like they want you to think freely but only believe there point of view.Its kind of a contradiction.

[@Sorted906]

The man has a doctorate in philosophy and theology. He knows more about the bible than you could possibly imagine.

[@devindaniels1379]

He never answers the question of "whether a good God is compatible with the reality of hell". He mentions that hell is compatible with justice, tried to reverse the question to compatibility of justice with heaven, and then answers his own question with Jesus crucified making heaven compatible with love and justice. However, he never mentions how hell is compatible with love (only with justice). So again, how is anyone eternally in hell if it isn't compatible with the full nature of God when having them in heaven (at some point) is?

[@wilts8965]

'If God simply blinks at sin He would not be just', says who? Who came up with the rule that unless people are sent to hell God would not be just?

[@SunShine-oe4rt]

Is it just for the police to let a robber get away with his crime?

[@WingedWyrm]

1. To all believers in Hell Theology, there's a trick you've been trying to do for a while now, and you haven't done it yet. The trick is to make Hell just as tormenting as it's always been, but change it around so that it feels less like God has any responsibility. "Hell is eternal separation from anything good." "Hell is you left to your own devices and sinking into your own sin." "Hell is having to watch that one Sartre play over and over again." "But, and this is important, it's not a pit of fire that God sends you to." It all still winds up with God, in your theology, being responsible for the existence of Hell and for anybody who winds up there. It's all God's fault. You can't get around that. 2. This requires a purely punitive definition of justice. "Justice is people getting punished for bad things." Of course, the notion of the crucifixion being Jesus paying the price requires that the people being punished don't have to be the people who did the bad things. It's all a matter of "something offended God, therefore, suffering must appease him." That sense of justice isn't just. It isn't about people getting what they deserve. It isn't about creating a population that will act better towards its constituents. It isn't about respecting, well, anybody. It's about abusing people into thinking they deserve abuse. It is a Lovecraftian horror of a sense of justice. 3. Also note that, in this sense of morality and justice, wrong isn't really a matter of what is done but is doing it from what position. You, a mere mortal, punish someone with more cruelty than the crime demands(say, the sentence to community service is one day too long), become sinful for that. God, with whom all things are possible according to Christian belief, punishes you forever for that one sin (or a sin much smaller than that) and that is good. Well, what's the difference? It's not the action, judged on that ground, God's action is much worse. It's not intent behind the action, because that hasn't even come into the discussion on this scenario. No, the only difference is that one of the actors under judgment is not God and the other one is. What does this all say? It says that William Lane Craig's morality and the Christianity he believes in (which is not to say all Christianity, but that which he and most of his followers believe in) is monstrous. It is abuse on the level of Lovecraftian Horror, a being that not only torments eternally, but demands that you agree with the justice of that eternal torment on pain of similar torment. In that Theology, there can be no heaven, not for any save the most compassionless of psychopaths. For any present must either feel the pain of those in Hell or have that capacity stripped from them and, what's left cannot be you. And, any morality that calls the deity that enacts such horrors good cannot be called moral.

[@Serenity5460]

I think you miss the free will and Jesus‘ death on the cross here. Both are big ones.

[@tydavis8979]

I have just discovered this man's work and I think I will be making him my special project for the next while.

[@hafaskater]

A Christian could just say that no one deserves Heaven in the first place so the man who didn't repent deserves hell anyways or that it's possible that the man who died in that crash would have not repented at all.

[@kisumudalahera]

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

[@drreasonablemuslim2274]

I am muslim ..but i respect prof.craig so much ....he has good phylsophical explanation for many subjects ,,respectfull man ^__^

[@deeanderson4164]

Nice to know you have the interest :-)

[@terrlaw328]

How can you respect a man who believes, as most Christians do,that if you are not a Christian you will go to hell ? Do you not see the irony of this ? Only Christian’s can be saved ! I do not believe this but this idiot does.

[@jaredhumpherys8335]

The idea of God relies on the presupposition that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. It seems to me that it's awfully convenient that God tells us he is all of these things, and we just have to take his word for it. Of course he would tell people he's perfectly perfect, you're not going to get blind worshippers if your God isn't the most bestest thing out there. I mean, would people worship a God that couldn't be omniscient? Yet in the Old Testament God has numerous setbacks as he guided his flock, setbacks that wouldn't have happened if he'd been omniscient because he could simply forewarn them of any immediate or future perils waaaaaaaay before they could happen. Would people worship a God that wasn't omnipotent? God claims this characteristic, and yet when Adam and Eve failed to resist eating of the apple of the tree of knowledge (which conveniently happened until the watchful gaze of a supposedly omniscient being), he couldn't just rewind the clock and tell them "Yo, that snake is a lying ass punk. I mean it, that tree's is off limits. I'm lookin at you, Eve." See, this is what happens when your write a character that's supposedly all powerful, you can't reconcile any mistakes because mistakes shouldn't be allowed to happen because, wow, that character is all powerful. Next time, write a God that has some flaws. Makes them more relatable to people, and also you can have plot conflicts without people asking why or how because this character isn't totally all powerful.

[@RequiemNocturne1]

Perfect Justice = infinite punishment for finite crimes on flawed organisms. Not what I think could be defined as justice in any sense.

[@Tobi_237]

The punishment only remains infinite if the “flawed organisms” die in their sins and in their lifetime refused the gift of Perfect Savior who BORE the punishment perfectly already, hence we are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in this Perfect Savior - Jesus.

[@borntoplayfootball352]

It amazes me so much to see such a smart guy saying such erie things

[@stevekim5754]

Let me answer that by what I think determines the gravity of a wrong because it applies to both God and humans. (It may take a couple replies. Sorry!) The gravity of a wrong is determined by the intrinsic value of the object against which it is committed. If human beings have intrinsic value, then their freedom actually matters in the objective sense and a wrong can be accounted for for the victim regardless of the experience of suffering.

[@stevekim5754]

Now, if you apply that to the issue of hell, contrary to what you claimed earlier, it *is* possible to commit a wrong of infinite gravity. If the wrong is committed against a being of infinite value, then an infinite punishment is also justified. It may make sense to you or it may not, but that's my view on that.

[@whosays2153]

Existence with God in his realm is "eternal life"; now, "he'll" is the opposite. He'll is "eternal death" (after the "second death") with no hope of resurrection. He'll is the antithisis of eternal life with God .

[@danielboone8256]

I wonder if people die out after some time. If God is the source of life and they’re separated from God, how much linger can they live?

[@russelldavis3796]

Exactly right. Our "souls" (selves) are mortal. We only live in immortality if we accept Jesus and God's ability to make us immortal.

[@fanghur]

Infinite punishments for finite and trivial transgressions is the complete opposite of pure justice; it is pure injustice.

[@TheOldBeef]

I don't believe in the idea of justice at all. If someone is inclined to do something that brings harm to me, I simply want to prevent them from being able to do so; if I had created them, I would rather reform them than punish them. Perhaps we have "free" will, but if we all were to start our lives over again we would all make the same exact decisions again, and believe the same exact things again - so essentially if people do indeed go to Hell for rejecting the Gospel or whatever, God is the one who set all of these things into motion. His creations were created for misery... which is incompatible with the idea of a "God of love."

[@CaseyCovenant]

Revelation 20:12-15 English Standard Version (ESV) 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[@SulaemanSantoso]

If Jesus's Death satisfy God's wrath of our sins.. why should there be hell ? why can't Jesus's death takes all our sins so all of us Goes to heaven ?

[@stevekim5754]

According to your view, how can it be a wrong (crime) for the woman if she didn't experience the suffering? There's gotta be something more to what determines the gravity of a wrong, don't you think? Why is her consensus important to begin with?

[@frankwhelan1715]

Completly ignoring the description Jesus gives of hellfire, flames, knashing of teeth ect ect, and puts his own spin on it

[@madambutterfly7513]

frank whelan - yep, because they don’t want to hear the truth even when it plainly says in the Bible fire & gnashing of teeth, hell will be more horrible than any human can imagine & by the same token, heaven will be wonderful beyond anyone’s imagination!! I choose Jesus, but billions of ppl don’t, theirs will be misery & torment behind description, unfortunately. I will pray for the lost souls but I thank God for my salvation🙏❤️🙏❤️🙏❤️🙏❤️🙏❤️

[@YukonBloamie]

I was on board with Craig until I looked up the definition of the word crabbed. I don't have a crabbed heart now so why would I have one when I die? Glorifying might is not how I would want to spend an eternity anyway.

[@RequiemNocturne1]

How is it a misunderstanding? When this is exactly what that kind of punishment is.

[@cognoscenticycles4351]

There is a serious problem with this logic. The soul is not intrinsically immortal so those who gain immortality will have been granted that by God. This immortality will be for the righteous only. The wicked on the other hand will be annihilated or destroyed. There will be no endless separation from God because they will cease to exist. That does not mean that the wicked will not be punished for their sin, but the punishment will fit the crime. No sin will merit eternal punishment as it would not fit the crime and would not reflect God's perfect justice ad love. The key to this subject is to realise that man is inherently mortal, not inherently immortal.

[@keithrobertwells9605]

What a relief....he does not believe HELL is being on fire for eternity. Yeah! :)

[@keithrobertwells9605]

William's definition of hell is much more tolerable than the version I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church! :)

[@keithrobertwells9605]

I don't know what you mean. Please clarify. :)

[@gmn545]

Considering how flexible people's emotions are - especially when faced with severe conditions - I've yet to encounter any person who fits the description of undying conviction (in this case, "would never freely choose to repent"). Keep in mind we're talking about ** eternity **. Do you realize what that means? You assert "Hell isn't for those whom God knew would have a change of heart later on", but I presume you're talking about during their earthly lives. What about in the afterlife?

[@RickStewart1776]

Wow, even Dr. Craig gets things wrong from time to time. 1Thess 1:5 "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." However, in 2Thess 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" More specifically, from the RSV: 2Thess 1:9 "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," It is even more odd to know that Dr. Craig uses the RSV bible.

[@bittersylence]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 not 1 Thessalonians 1:5, in case you are following along with the Bible.

[@gmn545]

As to molina's middle knowledge, see "Philosophic Problems Of The Middle Knowledge Theory" (R . K. McGregor Wright). I also see coherence issues with "All-Loving" & "All-Just" being simultaneous, as love implies grace and mercy (in God's case, taken to an Omni-level), yet this necessitates a drop in the degree of 'justice' (otherwise, Ezek 18:20 couldn't be negated by Christ's death). I agree with you on those who freely choose to reject. But I'm talking about punishment for not being aware.

[@lovejoypeaceforever]

"WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH" ... IT'S NOT DIFFICULT... PRAISE JESUS FOR ELECTING ME TO LOVE AND WORSHIPPING HIM :D

[@Melchiorblade7]

Not to mention he does his bible studies in the original Greek and Hebrew respectively

[@PreciousMeddler]

He said 1 Thessalonians 1:5, but I think he meant 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

[@Dysnomiac1]

Yet it's still ambiguous as to why sins of a finite, earthly life warrant the punishment of an infinite afterlife.

[@seeqr9]

If I start a forest fire and walk away, that fire still burns. The fact that I'm not still there, holding a match to the leaves, does not undo what I did. It is the same with sin, it burns eternally. If I murder, that murder always exists. If I still, I stole. Nothing changes that.

[@cfgbvggv6663]

Fires don’t burn eternally. Try finding one sun that has an infinite consequence.

[@seeqr9]

@@cfgbvggv6663 I didn’t say it burns eternally. But it eternally did burn. Everything that has happened isn’t still happening at all times.. but they will always have happened for all time. And from a perspective not bound by time and space, everything is always happening at some point on the timeline.

[@SangAcquiescentFroid]

Amen. God is JUST and the JUSTIFIER. So beautiful. I think Romans 3:23-26 sums this up perfectly: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

[@koldkilla124]

Craig asks how could a just god send all people to heaven? Well good point Craig, aside from the fact that an all powerful and JUST god would have created a better system than simply heaven and hell. Humans aren't just good or bad. Most of us are somewhere in between. I really find the level of deluded rationalization this man spews sad

[@chirastuthakur366]

You are awesome sir thank you for your messages you are an pure and loving soul

[@benjamineinarsson1541]

He is, and he demonstrates it willingly. He admits that even if the ressurection of Jesus was demonstrated to be false he would still believe it because his faith takes president over the evidence. Which by definition is presuppositionalism. His arguments are also often only valid when including presuppositions not only about the specifics of his claims but also demonstrably poor presuppositions of the universe and how it operates. He preaches to the converted, deepening a delusion.

[@caruya]

To Gog Mclaine and everybody else, God took a risk when creating us, but it's still better to create us and many go to heaven, than not creating us because of the risk of many going to hell. Hell as a punishment is allegorical. We choose it ourself, why, because we never made our identity to reflect God. Hell is loss of identity or rather the identity we created in our lifetime that is not God. An all loving and just God does everything in it's power to fulfill your chosen identity and also to suffer as little as possible. So because when judgement comes and our chosen identity is fulfilled, we either love God forever or hate him forever. Now, this hate is so immense that we cannot simply look at God and it's much worse to be in his presence than to be some where else, so God has created a state which is less torturous, aka hell. So here we see that God's just is not hate, it's perfectly in par with his love. But hell is still lonelyness and eternal separation from him.

[@caruya]

John Milton No. God's knowledge is not like ours, it is not linear, it's multidimensional. It means he can see all the possible outcomes from all the possible events. He can see how I can go to hell and how I can go to heaven. He can see me now, if I had made some different choices, somewhere else, than writing this post. It's up to us let him, help us make the right choices.

[@caruya]

John Milton Also, what you described is called predestination and it's totally against the nature of God in respect to us.

[@theway5591]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

[@iesukirisuto32]

He's an evidentialist. Not a presuppositionalist.

[@TheAdventSure]

If the _lost_ *live* _forever_, then what is the *second death*? Rev. 2:11 ...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the *second death*. Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the *second death* hath no power... Rev. 20:14 ...death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the *second death*. Rev. 21:8 ...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the *second death*.

[@Romans_116]

Agreed! Eternal hellfire doctrine was created by Roman pagan Catholic soup. Roman paganism got mixed in with the church. You can see hades and scripture being blurred into something we call eternal hell fire. Because ppl think "the bible says so" they accept this doctrine without realizing they've fell into the Roman belief system. The concept of the dualism of man is not sound doctrine. They are assumptions without digging into old testament and making sure New testament doesn't contradict. Ive said it before and say it again. If the doctrine of Soul sleep or the state of the dead is ignored then the scripture is self contradicting.

[@Romans_116]

+Jeff Albertson When you say "spirit lives on forever" I'm sure you mean a conscious spirit. You see, that's the thing, the word spirit can mean different things to different people. So when they read the bible and see the word spirit, they falsely interpret scripture. You make that claim because you assume that is a "known fact" but it's not what you think it is. I once had the same mindset as you but stopped listening to misinformed people and their interpretation. The problem with people who think as you do is they start reading New testament 1st and then dismiss the old testament because they say "the New testament gives us the full revelations". We know this isn't a wise thing to do because old testament teaching is the foundation of all we know. The question is, what does the bible say the spirit is? Or even the soul? Genesis 2:7 says that "God formed man out of the dust of the ground, breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul" (not man HAS a living soul... also the original word for soul in Hebrew is Nephesh. I was used on animals 4x before used on humans. The transliteration from Hebrew to English is breathing creature or being. Here's the formula: A + B = C .... A- Man/dust = body, B-Breath of life is the spirit, C- soul is the combination of both body and spirit that is equivalent to a breathing being or creature. (James 2:6 verifies that the body detached from the spirit is death) The mistake that people make is thinking the spirit is some type of conscious ghost. So they make claims such as you did in your post. How do we know the God's breath of life is the spirit? Job 27:3 "The spirit of God is in my nostrils." (nothing indicating a conscious ghost) Consider the breath of life or "spirit" as a life force. Examples: You have a light bulb (body) and electricity (spirit) connected to each other = Light you have a car (body) and the key (spirit) connected to each other = a running vehicle What happens when a person dies? Where does the spirit go? Ecclesiastes 12:7 "and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" This is for both saved and unsaved. He takes back the breath of life and preserves until the day of Judgement either in the resurrection of life or the resurrection damnation (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 What he will do is resurrect the body, and the spirit he took back in Ecclesiastes 12:7, he will place his breath again into the person to give them back their consciousness/life/soul/. If you are found in the resurrection of damnation you will die a 2nd literal and final death by way of fiery brimstone that melts earth aka lake of fire aka place where Jesus calls Gehenna verified in old testament and new testament. Malachi 4:1-3, Psalms 37:20, Revelations 20:9-10, 2 Peter 3:10. Jude 1:7 If the spirit continues to live forever then it even defies what Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Key words are KILL, DESTROY, SOUL. It says the soul can be killed and Ezekiel 18:20 says the same thing. But from the previous explanation above we already know on scriptural bases what the soul is. If the spirit in conscious it contradicts these verses Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 146:4, 115:17 etc... If you have questions let me know. If you have rebuttals feel free to share.

[@Romans_116]

+Jeff Albertson If you get the chance please read the latest post on the comment section of the video. There's at least 5 comments I left. Hopefully we are on the same page and understand of what I'm trying to communicate to you. To satisfy your question. Yes I do believe in Heaven. I just do not believe that at death a conscious ghost that is detached from your physical body goes and lives in heaven for those who's citizenship or destination will be. There's a systematical process that I've explained in my previous post. At death we all (the majority except the people who God made the exceptions of the rules such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses, Jesus and MANY not all that came out of the grave during Jesus resurrection Matt 27:53) die the 1st death which is Jesus figuratively calls it "SLEEP' because He's very much aware that all will wake for a resurrection verified in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29. However, please keep in mind about time perception. Example: Let's say you have been married for 5 years with a son of 1 year and a daughter of 4 years. You got into a car accident with head trauma and ended up in a coma for 10 years. You woke up and see your 11 year son and 14 year old daughter and find your ex-wife remarried thinking you would never wake up from your coma and you still cannot believe 10 years went by because the next conscious state after the car accident was 10 years later than seemed like 1 second. So when a person dies it will be no different. 2000 years can go by but their next conscious state will seem like sleep over night and they find themselves at the resurrection with a new glorious body into immortality if found in Jesus Christ then raptured into the clouds to meet Him in the air and be taken to heaven for 1000 years(this is what most church calls the rapture. You will hear different interpretations about this but lets not get sidetracked) When the event of Jesus 2nd coming comes, people say some will be left behind but strangely enough the bible says the complete opposite. No one is left alive! All people without the glorious body will die at Jesus 2nd coming since he will not withhold his glory and wrath. You've probably never heard this interpretation but here are the following scriptures to back this claim... Isaiah 24:1,3, Jeremiah 25:33 - (....dung on the ground) Revelations 19:17-18 explains how all the dead peoples body will become bird food. Here's another message in Matthew 24:28 illustrating a visual of the future event. Or how about Jeremiah 4:23-27 God will not be taking all the believe while letting the sinners party for a 1000 years. Too much evil and too much injustice. He's keeping no one left behind alive. If you read in Revelations 21:2 Apostle Paul sees bits and pieces of the puzzle but look what he says... You see that the New Jerusalem actually comes down or descends. Where is descending to? Well, where is John located? Right here on Earf! You see New Jerusalem will make it's home here on earth while at the same time Jesus calls all the dead of wicked to resurrect to face judgement. How many years gap between the resurrection of the saints vs the resurrection of the wicked? Answer 1000 years found in Revelations 20:5. Have you ever heard preachers say "You will stand before God one day and give an account of your life!"? Well they use that phrase but are actually confused about the timeline themselves. God and his saints have already made judgements on these people. The books of their lives are open, every motive, hidden secrets, evil thoughts and all the opportunity for them to repent will have been shown in the books proving God made righteous judgement. There will be NO excuses for why they did not respond to the holy spirits calling. This is where it all happens...1000 years later when the entire planet is wiped out and God brings the new city down to the desolate earth. Satan by this time had no one to deceive on was bounded to the uninhabitable earth and was unable to lie, steal, kill, but now he can do it once more. Why? Because people are now resurrected. The bible doesn't say why these resurrected wicked tried to attack the New Jerusalem (no brainer God can kick their butts but they seem desperate) but clues in Revelations tells us the TREE OF LIFE is in the middle of the city (Rev. 22:2 ). The thing to keep in mind is that when these wicked resurrected they didnt resurrect with an immortal, incorruptible body... so if they died blind, def, and crippled, they likely resurrected to the same physical state. If you read on in Revelations 20:9-10 it talks about how they get devoured by fire and brimstone from heaven. I will answer your 2nd question about hell being forever and about the fairness of who gets infinitely vs finite. This is important for you to understand the following after learning about the body, soul, and spirit from previous post. If you pay attentions to Revelations 20:9-10 here are parallel verses that talk about the SAME EVENT. Let the scriptures speak for themselves. Psalms 37:20, Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 3:10, Jude 1:7 Rev 19:20, Matt 7:13. These verses talk about this event that takes place after the resurrection of the wicked. If you pay attention everything is happening on earth, not in some mystical, magical, spiritual prison. If you look at the common denominator they are being consumed, turned into ashes. Everything is so hot the earth is actually melting, Hence; lake of fire! Now to directly answer your questions. NO ONE will be burning infinitely. Not saints, not even the devil himself. Why do I make a huge claim? The answer is found in Ezekiel 28:12-19. which is the last parallel verse I'll use in relation to the hellfire event We know satan to be a cherub and highly regarded for his beauty but look what happens to him in verse 18-19. He gets turned into ashes too and is NO MORE FOREVER! This event is also known as the 2nd death because it's the final one with no resurrection. This is where both body and soul is destroyed where Jesus repeatedly talked about. Destroyed means to annihilate or to put an end into existence. It's repeated over and over and over. How many times do you hear destroy or perish in the bible? Alot! And our thought process doesn't allow us to process that information because some false teacher taught us differently so to justify our belief we have to change interpretation of the word "destroy and perish" to substitute it for eternity in hell. The question is ... How come OLD testament says nothing about sinners burning for all eternity and even says the devil existence will be no more yet the NEW testement says they will be tormented forever and ever? This is where after learning about the foundation you must look into the translation of the word "forever" and what word was used in the original text. For OT Ancient Hebrew and for New T. Greek was used. The original word for "forever" is aiones, aionios, etc... it means age during, or age to age. We know from provided scripture the earth is being destroyed so the age is coming to an end. So whatever is in the age of the "old earth" will perish in it by the fire. Man does not have immortality. If he did he wouldn't turn into ashes at the 2nd death. (if you google sodom and gomorrah guess what you find today? 2 cities burned by "eternal fire". Are those 2 cities burning today? No. So why does it say "eternal fire" The Hebrew understanding of eternal fire is to be interpreted where the fire cannot be quenched by any human power but it will consume everything in its path. Once there's nothing left to consume, it will eventually burn out on its own leaving everything into ashes. Hence: "eternal fire", "unquenchable fire". Ultimately we don't know how long satan, his false prophets, false teachers, and wicked sinners will be burning for or the duration of their suffering but each one will get according to what is deserve. Let's just trust God is super duper fair but at the same time recognize he isn't going to burn his own creation while keeping them alive for eternity in the literal sense to suffer. If you need more verses to help you understand that not every time you see forever it means literally unedending, please let me know. I barely scratched on the surface of interpretation of eternity... there's so much to say.

[@RequiemNocturne1]

If you're a Christian, and believe people have eternal souls, and according to your belief that God sends people to a place of eternal torment of some kind whether it be the literal fire and brimstone or otherwise then yes its infinite punishment. Thus it is by no means perfect justice as no crime is ever punished for an unlimited amount of time, they are judged by degree/offense and amount of times done. So an infinite punishment is unjust, unlawful, and cruel.

[@RequiemNocturne1]

Nope. There are many different sects who hold Hell to be a number of different things some of which I listed ( fire and brimstone, separation from god,ect) resulting in infinite punishment. Regardless that doesn't detract from my point, that no matter what you hold to it will never be considered Perfect Justice.

[@aquatix]

That is a bizarre notion; never-ending punishment for a finite crime. Goes to only suggest that man, when rejecting certain idiocies, is a moral exemplar compared to god.

[@cruelsuit1939]

The only way God could suffer the same punishment for sin that He inflicts on His created beings would be if God/Jesus went to hell for eternity, but He didn't. Therefore it is impossible for God to be just. It is logically impossible for God to suffer the punishments that He necessarily must inflict on His creatures. He is said to destroy souls, but He can't be destroyed Himself. A being can not be considered good, or moral, or just, if that being inflicts punishment on its created beings that it will never suffer itself for offenses that it is not capable of committing itself.

[@MaceySparrow]

Craig said once that God did not create evil. Hoverver here he says that goodnes of god can't exist without evil. Allpowerful god can't be good without evil. That's so fucked up.

[@angelus_solus]

+Macey Sparrow that philosophy is very messed up. fact is though, it's also very wrong. this CRAIG is very wrong. there was no evil in the world until satan decided to rebel, and coerce adam and eve (and later a large portion of the angels in heaven), to join his rebellion. if god couldn't exist without evil, then why does it say in revelation that satan, his demons, death and the grave will be destroyed in the future. craig's logic is VERY flawed.

[@snowtracks]

He didn't say that but nice try though.

[@snowtracks]

Didn't say anything about goodness can't exist without evil, but nice try though.

[@infinightsky]

who will punish Yahweh for genocide?

[@benc6537]

+infinightsky God destroys the wicked by leaving them to their own devices. How maligned is the creator!

[@infinightsky]

+Ben C the God of the bible is something I would consider wicked.

[@benc6537]

+infinightsky May I suggest you have been deceived. There are the myths of God and hell which are sadly mainstream beliefs, and then there is the real God, who has given you and I the freedom to choose and the innate ability to know the difference.

[@infinightsky]

@@benc6537is it a loving act to punish someone for eternity, simply for not believing in them?

[@benc6537]

@@infinightsky Welcome back. Of course not, it's infinitely unjust and diabolical. Thank God it's a falsehood. Tragic how so many have been deceived by it.

[@stevekim5754]

What happens if a crime is committed without causing any suffering? Pardon the crassness of this example, but if a man were to use a date rape drug, have his way with an unsuspecting woman and then covered it up in a way that the woman doesn't even realize what happened to her and she never will, is that not a crime then?

[@hexusziggurat]

"quotes the wrong BOOK" what wrong book? "makes up his own descriptions of Hell" He said "This is what I believe the ESSENCE of what hell is", WLC clearly says its HIS belief and he describes it as the "essence of what he thinks hell is". If you're going to squabble over particulars get something worthy of pointing out. You are also trying to compare a transitory punishment that MAN determines fit as compensation via a penance or penalty by MAN's standard, not God's standard.

[@mannyconsolacion1505]

He is explaining his own views about hell, what about ( Luke 16:23-24,,,, Rev. 20:11-15 ),,,for me hell is a place of torment. like what happened to Lazarus.....

[@stevekim5754]

Hi, FogoQueArde. I appreciate your thoughts. I would like some clarification, if I may. Are you saying that the gravity of a crime is determined by its length?

[@VCityglobal]

Steve Kim the judging is left to God to handle in His wisdom and mercy and justice....He will do the right thing

[@DitchDiggerIA]

John Baker, Interesting translation. The several I consulted use that word "calamity" rather than "evil". It refers to God's complete control of everything that happens. He does not create evil (James 1:13-17) but He does allow it so that we will not be satisfied with this world nor the things of this world. He freely allows us to follow our own natural desires and instincts (Ephesians 2:1-10). If you have spent your entire life rejecting, ignoring, or ridiculing God, what makes you think that He will allow you to spend all eternity in His presence? Forgiveness you say? That was offered on the Cross - with the sacrifice of Jesus. If you weren’t following Him here, I doubt you will be willing or able to make the change there. So the question is; "Where else would you go?" God is the source of all goodness. when we reject God we embrace the antithesis of His character. That is true now as well as it will be then. We all are created for eternal life. It will either be spent in His presence or apart from Him and His goodness. How would you define a place devoid of any shred of goodness? For Indiana Jones I would recommend 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17 for a Scriptural bass for the Bible as being infallible and inerrant.

[@awakeningminds647]

SIMPLE! If God didn't create "Evil," then He is not the only creator.

[@containeduniverse]

AWAKENING MINDS Isaiah 45:7 "Study to shew thyself approved"

[@JohnWilson-ii6xq]

+AWAKENING MINDS He is the creator and has every right and dictate to do what he pleases. You and I did not create this world. If you are so pissed of at God, why are you just enjoying all the 'good' that he created ? That's hypocritical. Both good and evil come together as a package. There is nothing called free lunch. If you want to live free of his laws, you are very well welcome to create your own universe and live in it. Nobody including God is stopping you. Yes, he created and designed evil in this world because of sin and rebellion by Adam our ancestor. Please get over the infantile, goody goody, Santa Claus, hedonistic type of God whom you would want to imagine. He does not have to by any compelling reason, go by human 'reason' and 'fairness'. Its wise for us to obey according to his plan. If you don't want to follow its fine and you can very well reserve your seat in hell. Is it unloving ?? Unfortunately yes, because you have rejected his free gift of Salvation which he gives out of love. Love always has its conditions and breaking of it which will call for justice because God is righteous judge as well.

[@awakeningminds647]

You can write an encyclopedia on what you "THINK" God is all about and make it sound so good and intellectual and interesting and all that stuff. But that is all coming from an overworked "Imagination." It is not based on any kind of "Logic or sound scientific reasoning." I am NOT pissed off at God. I am disappointed at people like you who think that they can speak lies and attribute them to their God, while condemning others who don't agree with their "Delusional Fantasies.."

[@JohnWilson-ii6xq]

AWAKENING MINDS O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8. How could you even come to any conclusion without even experiencing God and his work in your life ?? Not everything that exists needs to kiss the feet of logic or 'scientific' reasoning. Authority and law trumps reason and that too 'limited' human reason which is the product of a small avg. 1.5 kg brain. God, by definition, is above 'reason' or 'science' as him being the first cause of everything from nothing. If 'reason' or human 'science' dictates what God should do or define his being, then reason is above God and should be the first cause of everything including God. ex. nihilio. Which logically is utterly impossible. reason or science didn't create this universe or God. Reason and science is rather a tool given by God himself to us to better understand the world around us and is limited in scope to the 'material' universe (even M-theory predicts hidden dimensions apart from visible universe). Then it logically follows that Reason or science is a weak tool to 'find'/know about a transcendent God and all it can do is just to point out to a Creator. Nothing beyond ,, i mean nothing on the intentions of the creator or 'read' his mind. Only the creator himself can reveal his plan to his creation, his character, his internal emotions about his creation and it NEED NOT NECESSARILY BE PALATABLE or confined to the boundaries of human 'reason' nor 'science'. GOD IS INFINITELY GREATER IN INTELLECT THAN FEEBLE HUMAN REASON. You can 'feel' or 'reason' or 'research' for years whatever you want WITH YOUR OWN IDEAS and human mind about his intentions/purpose of creation but it still does not change nor reveal correctly the truth of his revelation of his Word, the Bible. Religion is 'mans idea of God' which is not true and can only lead to human 'opinions' in the worst. In contrast, God chose to reveal himself through the bible in history which is self-authenticated and true in the life of many believers who experience the miracles, the grace, joy and peace of Jesus Christ. No body is speaking lies and each true Christian is a true witness to the Power and presence of God and his Word as exactly mentioned in the New testament 2000 yrs ago. Now believing or not is totally your choice given the evidence. Can imagination cure people ?? Can delusional fantasy heal people from death bed ?? can just 'ideas' provide the real, joy and peace (even during extreme pain) beyond and unexplainable by reason, from God ?? Talking away from a christian perspective, how did ancient cultures hugely geographically distinct from each other have the concept of heaven and hell ?? It itself proves that subconsciously (which again, given by God) human beings did have a sense of justice and the consequent punishment in the afterlife.

[@Ryan-rh8rn]

Beautifully explained 👏

[@coyhampton3087]

So God doesn't show himself when you are alive, may or may not answer your prayers, does nothing to alleviate suffering, and if you don't believe in him and go to hell you are "excluded from the lord" He never included you when you were alive. How ironic.

[@STREEEEEET]

+Coy Hampton You got to ask yourself this. 1. If God exists and the bible is His Word, so what does it say? 2. Those who seek me with all their heart and minds will find me. (paraphrasing) 3. Did i choose to seek God with all my mind and heart or am i waiting for some supernatural event occurs in front of me to convince me? IF God exists, and the Bible is His word, then he knows you better than you can possibly think, and he is no man that you can fool and argue with. Romans 1:20 _For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,so that people are without excuse._

[@STREEEEEET]

***** Christianity doesn't send anyone to heaven. Christ does. Christ said HE is the *ONLY* way to the Father, so the fact that there are many other religions, doesn't follow that no one is ' _right_ '. In fact, given the role of Satan, you would expect to have multiple cults as he wants to deceive as many as he can. Forget about religion, i don't go to any church for instance. You can either accept that Jesus is the only way or that he isn't. But you can't think that many paths leads to the same place, as He said he is the only path. So i think those people will have a choice like everyone else has, they will be facing the truth at some point in their life, and as everyone else they will either accept or reject. Christ is the one who paid our debts and the only one that can dismiss our case.

[@LiveLoveLifeXI]

+Jerry Renald Catholics don't believe that you necessarily go to hell for not having know Christ. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 846 & 847 "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." If they were presented with the truth, recognized it as such, and rejected it, that would be a different story.

[@drew2fast489]

Repent,Coy.

[@dajusta87]

Do you believe in punishment?

[@fanghur]

Now, if it were another god, a god that actually IS loving, compassionate, logical, etc. by common definition that was proven to exist, then I would give it my respect and gratitude for what it has done, for my existence, etc., and such a god would NOT under any circumstances do the things that Yahweh allegedly does. Wizard's Fifth Rule: "Mind what people do, not only what they say, for it is deeds that will betray a lie, not words."

[@dajusta87]

I believe in God and he is loving. If you choose to reject Him, he accepts that. Therefore, when your body perishes, you will end up in a place where God does not exist. It's apart of his loving character to let you choose. You choose not to be with God.

[@RadioactiveSand]

People really believe this. People actually justify endless torture for their brothers. This is fucking scary.

[@angelus_solus]

+Obbelisk lol You're such an idiot! Don't you know how to read? They said: "don't bother replying to me again. it will be nothing but a waste of your time." I guess you're too fucking ignorant to figure out that they have no idea you even replied lmao. Wow you fanatics are stupid. Btw you worthless pharisee, do you even know what a "Cult" is? "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object (which covers all religions in truth), a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister (8 million is NOT a "small number", especially when they're growing by over 200,000 a year and i know for certain their beliefs are neither "sinister" or "strange"), a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing (again, that covers all forms of religion)." Then of course there's: "1 : formal religious veneration : worship. 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents." In essence, anyone who's religious is following a "Cult" and you're nothing but a kettle calling the pot black you hypocrite. NICE JOB! lmao Now, to ensure that I won't be molested by your bullshit, i'm flat out muting your g+ page! SUCK ON IT! Reply if you want to wast more of your time. I won't know about it EITHER.

[@yunusahmed2940]

RadioactiveSand great argument

[@alsaxe1]

its scary if it's true..don't discount the possibility of it being true..

[@gmn545]

In terms of God being just, I can understand Hell as a temporal punishment in a 'lake of fire' that ends in annihilation. But the idea that immoral behavior and rebellion against God occuring over a tiny spark of time (in cosmological scale, a person's few decades of life out of 13.7 billion years is extremely tiny) being met with ** eternal ** torment is ... unjust, illogical, and simply unnecessary.

[@RequiemNocturne1]

You really aren't getting my point. Explain to me just how eternal punishment isn't immoral. Believing in this may not be immoral, but i'm not criticizing you i'm criticizing your beliefs. I also don't see the weakness in criticizing what someone else believes as every single person does it.

[@aquatix]

You conflate belief in god with the answer about a just and all loving god. I stated rather clearly that an educated person would realize the speaker stepped around the question; I did not insinuate an educated person would not believe in god. The concept of god is a religious belief if this god contains certain characteristics. Lets be honest, when you say god, you specifically have a type of god in mind. How do you know morals come from god and what are some of these morals?

[@RizKrispin]

0:32 - "The essence of hell is what Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 1:5, where he says 'they shall suffer the punishment of exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...' 1 Thessalonians 1:5 - "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." He probably meant to quote 2 Thess 2:9. HOWEVER, there isn't a version that says 'exclusion' in that verse or others. Look at what they all say instead - biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

[@joetech12]

He uses the RSV translation in his Sunday classes: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+1%3A9&version=RSV

[@hexusziggurat]

""God's" "love" is unlimited, no mere mortal person could love his children or animal "more" than "God" that explains why s/he can condemn his/her most loved creation to eternal hell fire for being un/intentionally disobedient. Matthew 25:41" I see cherry picking atheists do this often. You pick one trait of God then describe an action that disqualifies Him from that trait as some sort of proof against Him. God is DYNAMIC, He is not only loving, but He is JUST, a being of JUSTICE plus more.

[@scottgilleland3039]

no god of love would create hell

[@nixodian]

"God's" "love" is unlimited, no mere mortal person could love his children or animal "more" than "God" that explains why s/he can condemn his/her most loved creation to eternal hell fire for being un/intentionally disobedient. Matthew 25:41 how can intelligent unbrainwashed, people not wearing rose tinted specs not see that??!

[@NewbDance]

I agree. Wonderful answer of Dr. Craig! And thanks for the verse clarification!

[@Nauti_Games]

Good stuff, and very interesting. Luke 13 : 28 also agrees with what Craig is saying in that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when the unbelievers are thrown out from the presence of God. The 2 Thessalonians 1:9 verse that he quotes does say suffer the punishment of destruction. But perhaps it just means what once the unbelievers die, then thats it. Whereas believers are resurrected to enjoy eternity with God.

[@gmn545]

Again, I understand the analogy that implies middle knowledge. I'm saying that Craig (and most apologists) only apply this to our earthly lives, given Heb. 9:27. But I'm talking about *after* that. During this vast stretch of time (well really, 'time' ceases, as existence goes on for all eternity... kind of a scary thought, in a sense), what if someone who simply died young, ignorant of God, and ends up consigned to Hell for this, has change of heart in the afterlife at some "point" in eternity?

[@stevekim5754]

Whoa. Hang on a minute. I can see *law* being pragmatic (though that's not ALL it is), but what about *justice*? Justice is logically prior to law. And I'm equating the word "crime" with "wrong" on the basis of justice. So that's what I'm asking. Are you, in fact, implying that justice is a matter of pragmatism? After all, we are having this conversation over hell, and what you are implying is that hell is *unjust* because the punishment doesn't fit the wrong, is it not?

[@Lok783]

Well there are many interpretations from fire to spiritual death.

[@Vyjebanakurva1000]

Nice an reasonable answer. God is good indeed.

[@michaelflores9220]

If he were good he'd give everyone The Beatific Vision for free.

[@AzogDefilerFromMordor]

@@michaelflores9220 I love how people discuss characteristics of god without confirming that god even exist in first place lol

[@baubljos103]

Does not seem "perfectly just" for God to "blink" at human sin by "taking on human flesh" "and bears the death penalty for sin" so that "we should never be punished". That's not perfect justice, because the sinners are not punished for their sin. I think Craig has a problem there. On the other hand, if Jesus is not God, then God is not punished for human sin.

[@stevekim5754]

I think its application CAN be pragmatic but it's not necessarily so. Otherwise, you can't account for things that may be pragmatic but still unjust. (Say, the Nazis killing the handicapped for genetic improvement of the human race.) I understand what your argument is. The problem I see is that you can't seem to account adequately for what determines the gravity of a wrong, other than appealing to human consent for which we haven't heard a justification in your view.

[@gordonmarshall3218]

Weeping and gnashing of teeth in eternal fire for eternity. This is Jesust speaking, be honest about hell. Hell is so horrifying there is no words to describe it. l

[@haggeoromero]

his entire response can only make sense to another person who blindly believes the mumbo jumbo that comes out of his mouth. "justice and mercy kiss at the cross...." WHAT in the world does that mean?

[@harveylopezt]

He is referring to a verse in the Bible. Salm 85.

[@xneutralgodx]

It means they joined together in common ground, Jesus took the just penalty we deserved by voluntarily laying down his life for us in Love , The Father paid the price of justice by sacrificing his son Jesus Christ for humanity.

[@haggeoromero]

Thomas Remmers assuming there was a Jesus who died on a cross I claim it was a signal that we were now the ones to be relied upon. No longer would there be some deity looking after us. Instead of: I trust in you (Jesus), its: I (Jesus) trust in you (humankind). That point of view is no less valid than any other one, is it. Certainly Islam would dispute the fact that Jesus is Lord. The only thing Christians can say is: Islam is wrong. Nothing more, no proof or evidence to the contrary.

[@HaecceitasQuidditas]

haggeo romero There is very much evidence to the contrary. For example, the Islamic denial of Jesus' death on the cross is contradicted by every credible historical source (which is also why every credible historian considers Jesus' death to be a fact of history, never mind what you may read in the writings of some fringe scholars and certain Muslim apologists). As for your alternative interpretation of the meaning of the cross, can you find anyone with even indirect connection to Jesus and his original followers who accepted such an interpretation?

[@haggeoromero]

HaecceitasQuidditas do you care to post this evidence? i would very much like to see it since i am perfectly willing to change my position given proof of any god. how people can demand evidence in every other aspect of their lives except when it come to claims of a god is baffling to me. people follow the religious myths that are handed down to them and see them as true and sacred because others have done so for centuries not because they are objectively true or sacred. had i been born in indonesia i would today be a muslim, had i been born in india i would be a hindu. it's that simple. our debate would be between the veracity of the hindu religion vs christianity. just like you don't believe that i am typing on this keyboard from the spare room in your house AND here at my house you can't believe that both the hindu religion (or any other religion) and the christian religion can both be right. they are all ancient myths that codified long ago when the claim that a woman could get pregnant and give birth without having sex seemed reasonable in the same way that an earthquake was the wrath of some god. today we know exactly what happens in a woman's womb and even have the whole deal on video, we know about tectonic plates, we know that malaria is a parasite carried by mosquitoes not by foul air, that lightning is caused by a high electrical potential between two regions of space. we know that the earth is not flat, we know that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around. we know that mental illness is not caused by evil spirits. all of these things are common knowledge today, even to a 6th grader but long ago religion claimed to know the true nature of these things: gods of various sorts acting in rage or whatever the case was with a particular religion. bring the evidence.

[@DonJay777]

Are you referring to the statement you just made? Sounds correct...