Apprenticeships: The Secret Sauce

[@t.d.mich.7064]

I started my apprenticeship in Oct 1968. The paperwork, forms, requirements, time keeping, and pay schedules were pretty much the same. I started at $2.00 / hr, and graduated at 3.55 per hour. They supplied all the tools I needed, and a Gerstner box which became mine at completion. The going top rate for a diemaker at the time was $4.25/ hour. Worked in the trade for 45 years and was dismayed at the way manufacturers dumbed down the trade, and done away with training. It got to a point where busniess leaders were just enticing good help from other shops, and not training at all! This has now come back to haunt them as they scurry around looking for good help that is difficult to find. They only have themselves to blame for the skill shortage!

[@neoasura]

Its still done like this where I work, but I work for a unionized company as well that does it by the book. The reason kids arent attracted to it is because you have a lot of small "family owned" shops that take advantage of apprentices at low wages and exploit them.

[@MultiJono86]

Completely agree. I live across the lake in Ontario and lots of companies just simply dont put that level of legwork into apprenticeships and training. It is an imaging and marketing thing. Kids are almost taught in HS that a degree is a money printer regardless of economic/market circumstances and that manufacturing, writ large, is an uncompetitive, filthy meat grinder without any future prospects because everyone KNOWS that China, Robots, AI, 3D printers. etc. are the way fwd and that skilled people are basically wooden wheels with a pulse. So why invest? Companies fumble around a lot and, like you said, simply look for any reason not to give a hard working kid a job and a bump in pay every year or 6mths. It is incumbent on the company to know what the market is like for wages and to know its position in that market. In the event that some 20yr old kid thinks that they know better and want to leave, then they're lying to themselves because there's a greater than 50% chance that they wont get the $/hr and they're just trying to mine for gold. There should be an attempt to persuade them out of it. But red lines are red lines. Its different for tradesmen because we do bounce around the job market for a little bit and then hit a wage ceiling. Some realize that and try to find a cushy maintenance gig (I finally did) and then were basically out of the market. Some go onto starting their own shop. Some bounce job shop to job shop. Anyways, great video. Enjoyed watching it.

[@jameshatfield7634]

I did my apprenticeship from 1968 to 1972 as a moldmaker.It also kept me out of the Military with a 2A draft card.In 1970 the government held a draft lottery and from my birthday my number came up #29. I'm lucky I had an apprenticeship,i spent 40 years in moldmaking and another10 years as a machinist in aviation industry. Good information on your videos.

[@MajesticByBirth]

I received my Tool & Die Journeyman Papers in 1999. I was given a brand new Gerstner box as my gift from my hosting company. They gave me a young apprentice of my own to train... Punk kid thought he knew everything already and wouldn't listen to me when I gave him a project. So frustrating. He didn't last long there. I still have one of my "Blue Books" recording my hours on each machine. While going to school for my apprenticeship, I achieved my Certificate in Precision Machining as well as my Associates Degree in Apprentice Training-Machine Trades. I make decent money. Not gonna lie! Took me 20 years to learn how to save hours worth of work. Experience of knowing how to make things fit is essential.

[@adamadkins9210]

Absolutely spot on, Phil. Thank you for posting this. I had my own apprentice time as an auto mechanic starting in 1979, but Mark C Bloom tire company didn't have anything like the depth of planning you had in your program. I also had the privilege of bringing apprentices up many years later as a chef. Be honest, help them learn, PAY them (sadly, in the culinary field most aren't paid) and you have the most loyal, hard working employees you could wish to have. Bravo, sir!

[@A_Jel]

This was insightful, thank you. This seems to speak to some highly relevant and formative underlying values and motivations. Very interesting. Feels like an important book on the subject could easily emerge.

[@salvadorebertolone]

from what i've seen is that the only places that usually offer a real apprenticeship are union shops because the union demands it. in those situations the apprenticeship schedule of pay is laid out the same way, by hour levels. the problem is that most companies are to f'in cheap to bear the cost of an apprenticeship. the places that have classic apprenticeship programs when they publish an opening having hundreds if not thousands of applicants per slot.

[@chickenfarmer209]

I completed a construction inspector apprenticeship last year and they tracked our hours and we knew what we got paid per level. Apprenticeship starts at $28/hr and you only need a HS diploma.

[@peteroleary9447]

Apprenticeships for Tool & Die/Moldmaker aren't happening now. Large companies won't invest. Manufacturer's associations don't develop or maintain standards. The pay and prestige isn't there for the sharp candidates needed today. Though there are some exceptions, people are learning in different ways now. There's KZbin and the maker community and companies informally training people. I did my 10,000 hour apprenticeship in the Detroit area from '78-'82 and made $14/hr on completion. That would be $40 in today's money. For a freshly minted apprentice. Not happening.

[@roth427]

I recently signed an apprenticeship contract for tool and die in the state of Wisconsin and it’s crazy to see the hour requirements are basically still the same for all the areas of the shop

[@dynoguy]

That's a pretty nice set of paperwork, i got much less to look at, but luckily also ended up with a pretty decent skill set (i am about the same age as you). What they sometimes call apprenticeship nowadays is rather shocking, a few hours of training, some multiple choice tests and you are an "expert". ... oh dear

[@joecnc3341]

I couldn't agree with you more, Phil. I have a BS and an MS in Mechanical Engineering. I wouldn't recommend going to the university today. These kids are coming out $100k-$150k in debt!!! Where they could go to a trade school, get a job and be done with school for less than $10k, get a decent paying job, start their own company in a few years. Today they expect salaried workers to work 60-80 hrs a week with no overtime pay.

[@GeneralChangFromDanang]

My company/state is still doing the hour based raises. It's a 5 year program but they spread out the hours into much more specific categories. Unfortunately, EDM is not one of them, so people don't always get the chance to be trained on it.

[@superdansilverman]

there's no apprenticeships at all out here on the west coast. "entry level" machine operator jobs typically require 1-3 years of experience. do you know what areas or specific companies are still doing toolmaker apprenticeships? seems like apprenticeships have been totally replaced by machine technology programs at community colleges.

[@priority2]

Union Building Trades in Pennsylvania (fitters, electricians, sheet metal workers, carpenters, plumbers, etc) have 4-5 year apprenticeship programs that also earn college credit. Our agreements are nearly identical to yours and starting wages are north of $20/hr. Wage and benefit increases every 6 months. We struggle every year finding enough good people. Work ethic sucks

[@JK-tm7vj]

I live in Germany and here is everything very regulated minimum Wages for Apprentices are fixed. Times are fixed what to lern is fixed. In Germany integral Part of a Apprenticeship is going to a specialized School. And there is a Combination of Apprenticeship and study at a University called Duales System. The main Kriterium to bring People in a Apprenticeship is not The Wages someone becomes but the social standing. It´s important to publicize that Apprentices are future high qualified Specialists and not some sort of cheap Workers.

[@metalworksmachineshop]

Kids today are all like . Same job same pay. And they think they know it all after a few weeks.

[@michaelawuku1241]

i love your channelmr. kerner

[@johnholmes4960]

I enlisted in the army in 1966 as a vehicle mechanic. I served three years with one year in South Korea . I was going to junior college in the machinist apprentice program. The instructor was not qualified to be a teacher. So I joined the army.later I used my G.I. Bill to get through school....again. After 13 years I open my own shop. 31 years later and a divorce I retired . There are very few people going into the trades. Computers and the internet has made it very easy to make a boat load of money, very quickly, and never.........ever......coming home in greasy oily smelly clothes driving a beat up POS to and from work no matter how bad you felt. The problem is progress is killing this industry. It’s all about the money. That’s why these jobs are now in China. They have no choice. The world is changing every six months. What you buy today, is antique six months later. It all about money and personal preference.

[@robbierunyan3740]

Hi, I'm one week into my apprenticeship at Penn united in the prototype tool and die division. It's honestly exceeded all my expectations. But it's very intimidating at my age of 33. Is there any tips and things I need to be learning while home. Please

[@mactec98]

How large was Anson at the time you went through the program? For a mid to large size company that seems like a great way to go about training. Around Pittsburgh I see large companies running similar programs. Any advice for smaller companies with less then 30 employees?

[@TheToolandDieGuy]

At that time, about 40 of us including the office staff.It's kind of like a tax return. It doesn't matter how much you made, you still have to fill out the same lines.

[@mactec98]

Along the lines of training. I’m a younger guy in the trade and I see a lot of opportunity for myself as well as others. Any advice for me how to get other people motivated to be more proactive about there job. Not only younger guys but older ones as well. I’ve tried to set an example of my idea of a good employee like running multiple machines when able too, cleaning up while spindles Turning, putting things away, etc but it hasn’t caught one.

[@Tom-oc9sf]

Great information but you should consider editing out your birth certificate.

[@garyshirinian]

They love to send you to college or colleges will go under also now tool and die work is going down, simply the jobs are not here anymore. Dies that I build are in China also machines that I build also there . Companies have become only me who cares about you .

[@tobarapprentice6618]

When the economy is good, it is very easy to suggest that skipping a formal college education over even a formal apprenticeship is ok. But when the going gets tough, and jobs aren’t plentiful, as an employer who are you going to hire when placed side by side? Competitive edge is a very real motivator. I’m not saying that I disagree with what you are saying, I’m suggesting that we are all playing by a very different set of rules than we were in the 80’s. As CNC, China and the economy all change over the next 20 - 30 years I wonder what the next generation will be advising their youth...... food for thought.

[@cdmcquinn]

A college degree and an apprenticeship provide very different skill sets. When the going gets tough, it does not matter what kind of college degree you have if the job requires trade experience. If you want an office job that requires a degree, then whoever has the better college education, experience, and interviewing skills would get it. However, the trades person would not be in the running because they do not want that type of job anyway. Also, no matter how the economy is doing, there is always demand for skilled trades jobs. Obviously you do not realize how manufacturing is part of your daily life. Who do you think makes all of the things you use everyday. Everything you use: house, everything in your house, car, etc...

[@tobarapprentice6618]

Hey Chris. I am an Airline Pilot, and as such have a profound appreciation for the elements of manufacturing in my life. But fast forward from my comments a year ago to today. If you are an employer in the economic climate today, are you looking for a candidate with experience and a degree, or just experience. I think that (and of course there are exceptions) that if a candidate has taken the time and invested in themselves in the form of a College or University education then they are more likely to know how to learn, to have the discipline to show up on time, know how to work to deadlines, understand the importance of cost management, the list goes on. If nothing less, a degree is a value added proposition. Were it my business I would want someone who has invested in themselves, if I am going to invest in them, and I’d be more likely to pay more to have that person. But correct me if I am wrong.......

[@cdmcquinn]

Ok, the point of Phil’s video’s is the difference between trades apprenticeships vs universities. They are two very different career paths. If you or I have a manufacturing business and needed to hire say an account, the skilled trades person would not beat out the accountant for that job. Like wise, if we needed to hire a tool & die maker, I would not give the job to the accountant just because they had a four year degree in accounting. Would you want an accountant to build the plane you are flying? No, they have a specific job, to pay the bills. Just as the mechanic that builds and maintains your plane. The point is that kids have been told university’s are the only way to go. Wrong! We all need trades people to get their hands dirty and build the planes, cars, houses, and everything else we use daily. The soft skills that you listed should have been instilled into someone while growing up and honed as an adult. You don’t have a four year college degree to learn how to show up on time or hit a deadline. I have been in manufacturing for 20 plus years, Journeyman Tool & Die Maker. I served a federal apprenticeship which, like Phil explains in this video, requires college/tech school (associate’s degree in applied science) and 8000 on the job training hours. Any real apprenticeship requires as much or more commitment and discipline than a four year degree. On top of that, at the end of the apprenticeship you have a skill, a degree, experience, and a good paying job without a mountain of debt.

[@tobarapprentice6618]

So by stark contrast, I have a 4 year degree, a 3 year co-op diploma and 15000 hours; been flying for 30 years. So now that we’re done flexing..... What I am saying isn’t that I would hire an accountant to fly the plane, but rather the guy I would hire into the entry level position is the guy who has some “skin in the game”. If he/she has invested in themselves, I would choose to invest in them. So two apprentices side by side, one is 24, has a degree in accounting and has been working in a shop for 18 months as an apprentice. The other skipped university and has 18 months in a shop as an apprentice and is 20. You can hire one and you know nothing else about them...... tell you what, I’m giving the 24 year old the first shot. But we can agree to disagree, I could be wrong or right in practice, the scenario is hypothetical. Just don’t equally discount someone because they did go to school. And to be clear, I earned my time in an airliner, by getting my hands good and dirty.

[@chickenfarmer209]

@@tobarapprentice6618 His point flew right over your head.