Aptera Charging Deep Dive

[@scottpettie]

First trip..... from Carlsbad CA to Anchorage AK via Canada. :-) Nice long journey to stretch its battery legs.... :-)

[@frankr2995]

Nice video. Thank you. I have the launch edition (LE) reserved. First long trip will be picking up my LE in Carlsbad and driving to Houston. Can't wait.

[@a5-30-31cts]

Thanks for this research! Much needed and appreciated. For me the Aptera is also a hedge against an uncertain future where EV proliferation and warmer/hotter climate creates higher much higher demand for grid power (e.g. for both A/C and EV charging). The cost (the price) for electricity is bound to skyrocket where the cost to charge EVs will rival the cost of gas today. In this scenario, I would only want to own an Aptera with full solar. (Hopefully Aptera or the aftermarket will offer additional solar panels when parked (e.g. camping).)

[@farmerbold1144]

Got tired waiting for the Aptera. So I recently bought a Black Shadowline BMW iX xDrive50 electric SUV. If I had a family, I'd happily buy an Aptera as a second EV. 😊

[@bonnitaclaus2286]

I plan to pick up my Aptera in California. Visit my niece in San Diego, shoot over to Phoenix, Arizona, to visit family. Then go up to Las Vegas to see my sister. Then to come home. Spend a week or two, in preparation to go to Florida. I have ordered the 1000 mile Aptera. Because I live in a region where sunlight is unreliable, living in the Midwest, I plan on installing solar panels and a wind generator at my home. Electric vehicles will not reduce the footprint caused by creation of energy, until we reach a a point to break away from using fossil fuels for creating electricity. Hydro power is not always environmentally sound due to changing the river environment for native fish.

[@CH-es4up]

I am already signed up for the Launch Edition Aptera. The first long journey I intend to take will be when I pick up this vehicle in San Diego/Carlsbad/Palomar and drive it back home to Lubbock, TX. Beyond that point I will use it primarily to commute to and from work (and maybe get my wife to be seen with me on a date night now and then). It will also take a trip or two to the Daytona Beach, FL area for Bike Weeks and Biketoberfest (I hope it rains for those trips).

[@DouglasDinnebeil]

First trip Toledo to Hale Michigan (230 miles.) Michigan roads can be a challenge and are constantly be repaired, avoiding road damage take attention on the road. Speeds range (on rte 23 and I75) between 55 and 75mph but above the Saginaw bridge that 75 turns to 85... ya gotta roll!

[@garywozniak7742]

Excellent analysis.

[@matthewhuszarik4173]

One of the most informative and thorough You Tube videos I have seen on the Aptera. I have a 600 mile version reserved. I hope they include a vehicle to home capability as well. That is the killer application that ICEV can’t match as far as I am concerned.

[@garywozniak7742]

I think that the skin cooling is just in the belly pan now.

[@n.brucenelson5920]

The vehicle to home feature won't be on the LE editions, but I expect that it will be coming with time.

[@wingsounds13]

Excellent analysis of the Aptera charging. Even though I already well understood the charging rates this video helped to solidify this understanding for me. It's impressive that even with a relatively modest 50kW charging rate the Aptera is well competitive with all others in terms of miles|kilometers per hour charge rate. Aptera would do well to include this analysis in their marketing, as most consumers will see the 50kW rate and think it's slow.

[@flymypg]

Splendidly done! Having all the numbers in one place, with comparisons, truly shows "how the rubber meets the road". Or, in this case, "how the watts meet the road"!

[@passivlife]

Thanks!

[@jonj9149]

Excellent video. Really liked the charts, analysis and commentary.

[@RadekNovak102]

That's exactly why I'm on Apter's waiting list. High efficiency, which eliminates the usual problems of 3 ton EV owners - just look at their discussions, they're always going on about some charging,charging time, where are chargers and who's blocking the charging point, because the conventional car companies are caught in a vicious circle: their car is heavy and has a small range, so they make the battery bigger, and the result - again, a bigger and heavier monster that attacks the 3.5 ton car limit. Plus, as the vid nicely spells out, increasing battery capacity instead of increasing efficiency (which basically means making the car lighter) is a dead end precisely because of those battery heating limits for superfast charging.

[@danmccoy6164]

I plan on going to the mountains either direction from my house in Wisconsin. And driving forest service roads (After removing the wheel covers). And camping. Could use the car for cooking heating at night. And not have to worry about getting back down the mountain. Because would have more charge than when I got there.

[@benjaminkindle1841]

I think the "average charging speed" is a little misleading. If you're in a situation where you're worried about charging fast, you're probably charging from 10% to 80% - Most of the slowdown happens outside of those ranges based on my understanding.

[@passivlife]

I understand what you mean, but most people don't wver fully discharge their car. They also don't fully charge it at fast chargers to help prevent battery degredation and save time because, as you say, the last few per cent take far longer than the middle part for not much extra range. So, in the real world, this percentage range is what people use when travelling. Overnight, they just plug in and forget, but on the road, people don't t generally charge to 100%.

[@RajGiandeep]

You do an excellent job on your videos with your presentation & graphs & research. Keep it up. My first road trip, Visit national parks & work from home along the way.

[@mascaretllcmanager7481]

ditto Raj, the 'greenies' @ US National Parks will be trilled to see this eco friendly vehicles and share organically

[@danmccoy6164]

Plus you can camp. Use the Aptera for cooking. Or heat at night if need be. And not have to worry about getting back because it will have more charge than when you got there.

[@garywozniak7742]

​@Dan McCoy although it is not clear if there is a built in inverter for powering external 120V items. I don't believe there is.

[@passivlife]

It's not on the launch edition sadly, but they have talked about it in the past.

[@ThomasWaldmann]

Nice to find that you use km/h as charging speed. Much more practical than just throwing around kW values.

[@mrhobs]

Not that I’ll even have the money, but hard to decide between the launch edition and what I initially preordered; the 600 mi version. Hmmmmm…

[@gmv0553]

Great video on how the Aptera stacks up against other electric vehicles!

[@adrianpbaxter4071]

Glass Bute, Oregon

[@SheWhoLovesCats]

I want to see my family in Indiana , driving from NC.

[@christopherc4814]

How about this, I have solar on my house, is there a way to tie in a plug so the Aptera vehicle will charge of my solar only instead of my 110 outlet or other electric power from the grid?

[@spyro440]

Wish they had build the charging connector to the front.

[@ccibinel]

So tesla sentry mode uses 7.2 kwh / day and Aptera charges 4 kwh / day from solar. I really hope we get some kind of security recording feature eventually but it will need to be massively more efficient.

[@gadfly149]

My EV6 outperforms all of these charging rate comparisons. For Aptera, a 3rd seat option would be great for parent stuff (school dropoff, activities, etc), with the option to pop the seat out for cargo. Most of our local driving is one parent with 2 kids.

[@passivlife]

Yeah the EV6 has an impressive DC charge curve. I think the best I've seen, it stays over 210kw till 50% charge before the drop. Averages 200kw 10-80% too. Average DC charging mph is 515 or 828kmh. Very impressive.

[@gadfly149]

@@passivlife Thank you for the content BTW! Those #s seem about right. I rely on EAm for trips. My worst was 15-80%, maybe 17 mins at a 350 station. At home, on a 220/50a, I avg 9.6 kWh. I’ve followed Aptera for a looong time. It’s an exciting vehicle. A third seat would make it perfect for dad runs with two kids :)

[@gandmemoney]

Best video ever. Very nice .

[@GaryGreenway]

Great video! I'm looking forward to seeing the charge curves for each pack size. Once those are out, it will be easier for some to understand why a larger pack gets more charging miles per hour even at the same peak charging kWh. Another reason I'm holding out for the 600 mile pack.

[@robertkirchner7981]

I have a feeling that the skin cooling system has been abandoned in favour of a radiator mounted between the structural members just ahead of the rear suspension. You can see where it would fit at 10:28. I say this because the black underbelly panels appear in every video about the composite body, and I heard either Chris Anthony or Steve Fambro mention a rear radiator in one of their interviews, but I can't remember which. Extra cooling capacity would go a long way toward enabling faster charging speeds.

[@passivlife]

Still primarily skin cooling. There is a vent at the back for the internal airflow sucking in from the windshield area but no radiator. The beta had a radiator because it was an off the shelf component, but I've seen inside gamma and there wasn't one in that version.

[@GaryGreenway]

@@passivlife There is a radiator in the back. It was mentioned in the investors call video recently. As far as I know, they will use both.

[@GaryGreenway]

@@passivlife Check your email from me about this.

[@passivlife]

Ok will do. Maybe I missed it. Thanks for the heads up.

[@crcurran]

It's not going to give you 40 miles per day from solar except on the most ideal day in the most ideal places in the US and you have oriented your Aptera in nearly the most ideal direction while parked/driven while not having unblocked sun access. They might have even been assuming the car is driving while charging cooling the solar cells for more efficiency to obtain 40+ miles. That also assumes that the Aptera will be 100-watt per mile efficient. I can tell you that the larger the battery the more that efficiency will drop. The 25 kWh (250-mile Aptera) is the most likely to achieve 1 miles per 100 watt while the 45-kWh battery (400-mile Aptera) will be more watts per mile to move the extra battery weight. It's physics; more mass requires more power to go the same distance. I think you'll get 24 miles to 32 miles on the sunniest days in the warmer months of the year (April-October). That's if you buy the entire 700-watt system. It's actually not too bad with a 4-to-7-year payback depending on where you live for sun exposure and cost of electricity. This is a great second vehicle for a family or a single vehicle for two people. A good option for apartment dwellers who can park outside to get some of that sun exposure (7 days to charge), 110v where they can (15 hours), and DC faster charging (35 minutes) on occasion even for a brief time to get a bump. (That assumes charging from only 10% to 80% to extend the life of the battery).

[@passivlife]

Thanks for the comment. You are correct in a lot of your points. All this data is theoretical until proven in the real world, and Aptera are certainly aiming for high targets. You were slightly off in two points. The 40 Miles per day is actually not the highest possible. In perfect conditions, it should be able to get closer to 45 miles, but this like you say would be very difficult to achieve, even the 40 Miles per day will be uncommon for most people, even in california. The second point is that 100Wh per Miles is based on the heaviest 1000-mile version. The smaller range vehicles should achieve even higher efficiency. Assuming they hit their efficiency targets for each component.

[@crcurran]

@@passivlife elsewhere they said their highest achieved was 42 kW. And I assume they took that is briefly getting that number while ideal conditions including cooling and it was in a moment not over an hour to achieve 42 kWh. Honestly I do not think they are achieving 100 watt per hour at 1000 mile range and better with lower weight otherwise they would be taunting their efficiency with the watt range from the rooftops and not their less efficient range. I would be really surprised if they did since they say often take their cues from Tesla and one of them I assume is marketing a.k.a. Exaggerating. If they can get say 90 watts per mile with the 400 mile range vehicle they should say it but they are already saying the 400 mile range Aptera will have a 45 kWH battery which would achieve near 500 mile range if what you’re saying is true. We can only do assuming until it’s tested by independent authority, but they are giving us some details that we hope are accurate.

[@passivlife]

Yes, I'm looking forward to the real numbers. They haven't budged on the efficiency claims, which I take as meaning they ate on track with individual component efficiency. There are some positives and negatives that have occurred during the long design phase. The battery packs are more energy dense than originally thought, which is great, but the "side mirrors" create more drag than intended, which will hurt top speed efficiency. The battery size has not really changed, we just know the total capacity now, and not all of it will be usable. We will see the real numbers for the 400 mile soon, but only for the less efficient 3 motor version.

[@n.brucenelson5920]

@@passivlife The real benefit to all of us is just as much a collective one as it is to our personal budgets. Full solar Apterae will have a significant positive impact on areas that are struggling with power grid capacity.

[@kjelllindberg6987]

So what is the charging rate at -15C outside temperature after say 200km of driven distance with a cold start?

[@passivlife]

We won't know that until after it's launched I'm afraid.

[@markdoran3114]

Nice analysis - some real world data for you re the Taycan - from my experience over 6,000 miles the Taycan 4s (with the larger battery) has averaged 3.2m/kWh (mix of local and long distance) which is 311Wh/mile and at a 150kW charger it charged from 30-80% in 22 mins (first 13 mins at 150kW, then 3 mins at 113kW, then 6 mins at 104kW). It has a real world range of about 290 miles (EPA 230 range is ultra conservative).

[@passivlife]

Interesting, thanks for the info.

[@danielcrotty8141]

Thanks. I asked for this video months ago

[@TitusvRijn]

Again a very informative dense piece. Thanks for that.

[@richpate9436]

Fascinating for us EV nerds. However, the common EV driver also needs to understand Aptera's charging advantage considering range and charge anxiety are so much a concern. A simple comparison graphic like presented in this video should be prominent in Aptera's spec/sales presentations. Thanks.

[@EnmandsBand1]

such a great idea to have an external solar cell input on the car, it will be pretty cheap to buy a couple of panels for your garden and plug them in when you are at home Is the Aptera able to charge from the solar panels while it is driving?

[@n.brucenelson5920]

Yes!

[@thomas6502]

Appreciated this. Thank you!

[@josephgallagher1440]

Great video and thanks for sharing!

[@chrisbarrett2512]

Love it, as you get into the weeds, but at the drop of a hat, I will drive 1000 miles at a clip. My Prius is great at that, but now I am less worried about hanging out at the charger on longer trips. Thanks for you deep dive.

[@lk313]

Great Video! Minor comment: solar panels does not "charge" your car while driving. Battery can not charge & discharge at the same time. However, it will reduce your battery consumption while driving under the sun.

[@passivlife]

True. Apologies for the slight error. Although technically if you drive slow enough on a very sunny day it might charge while driving. 600w moving and 100w to the battery could be possible, or just sitting in traffic. But generally speaking you are of course correct.

[@normanroberts6241]

I think the solar still adds to range while driving whether it charges battery or is used directly unknown

[@glennzajic7318]

I heard Chris Anthony say they want to have room in the charge system for auxiliary solar panels, possible as much as an extra 1kw, but I have not heard confirmation that it is a done deal. It would be great news but where did you get this from?

[@andrewfuller8440]

Alaska, up high way 1

[@gandmemoney]

The battery will be in side of the vehicle I believe, if there is a fire what will protect the people in the car. I saw a video today of byd. Cars burning to the ground . It was not encouraging.

[@passivlife]

Not sure what you mean. If there is a fire in any car, gas or electric the people get out if they can. A friend of mine was unfortunately burnt to death in a gas car after an accident. People will die in electric car fires too but the big difference is that electric cars don't set on fire in an accident, some (on very rare occasions) have caught fire because of thermal run away of the battery. But people can still get out. From a fire perspective, evs are much lower risk because they are not flammable in their natural state, unlike gas.

[@passivlife]

Think of it like mobile phones. The same battery tech is inside everyone's phones. People wear the everyday, occasionally one catches fire but its very very rare. Each house probably has somewhere between 50 and 100 lithium cells in it. When phones first started using them, the media was full of phones catching fire stories, now they don't report it because everyone knows it's incredibly rare, so it's no longer interesting. Its the same with evs now. Occasionally one will catch fire and make headlines, but once most ppl have one, people will realise the risk is tiny.

[@gandmemoney]

After driving in it how safe do you feel and how was the ride quality over bumps,potholes etc? Thanks

[@n.brucenelson5920]

My wife and I rode in an alpha prototype in November 2021. This is before Roush Performance designed the suspension. Even then it was better than a Kelmark GT kit car we once owned. I think the production versions will be fine compared to any small, sporty car.

[@unclegeorge7845]

I want the charging port moved to the front where the flogo used to be. Saves lots of high voltage - high current heavy cable. Flip the battery connector to the front as well and we have another 5-10 feet of like cable removed.

[@passivlife]

The front generally is more convenient for charging too. Especially if you're at a supermarket with charging.

[@unclegeorge7845]

@@passivlife And this is a big reason too. Thanks,

[@n.brucenelson5920]

I don't think this is correct...

[@unclegeorge7845]

Gosh Bruce; You are one of the few sources I trust on KZbin so when you use the "don't" word it's kind of uncomfortable. Would you take another look at the wiring diagram and notice the relationship of the battery electronics and the NACS plug (almost completely different ends of the vehicle). Then notice the relationship of the where the battery connector is and battery electronics. I also think the NACS positioning is really vulnerable for rear enders whether they're from other vehicles or telephone poles too near a parking place. At this time it's all academic as we are on the march to production. I am curious why Sandy didn't notice this and you thinking my assessment is not valid. @@n.brucenelson5920

[@rebeccadubois8270]

I want my pre order bad! My 4 amp type 1 in the U.S only adds 3-5 miles per hour. It's really slow, takes days to get to full. Free level 2 install with purchase of bolt euv though.

[@lacidari]

Texas

[@byrnc927]

Just changed my Aptera reservation to delete the hatch panel solar cells. I would prefer to have a hatch window to look through while driving and will be willing to sacrifice the solar charing capacity. My Aptera will likely be garage kept anyway. Plus I charge at work for free. We currently have Level I and Level II chargers at home. Also opted for the off road option because of the condition of our Illinois roads.

[@danmccoy6164]

I really can't remember ever turning my head all the way around to look out the back window of any car I've ever owned. And you will have the monitor that will give you a better view than any rear view mirror. Plus if you got the off road package. You might as well. Go camping. Use the Aptera for cooking. Maybe heat at night. And not have to worry about getting back. Because you'll have more charge than when you get there. Plus what about places you go that don't have free charging. The car will be out of the garage.

[@byrnc927]

@@danmccoy6164 Our Volts have really good backup cameras. I never use the mirrors now, but my wife hasn't adopted. I have not been able to convince her that the Aptera monitor will be as good, but you have a point. Without a rear view inside mirror (Camera driven) maybe it won't matter. Also a lesson from my brother's 68 Impala steeply raked rear window on the fastback model, you can't see anything out the back In either case I have to sell her on the idea, (or say nothing) and get the extra solar and be in the Doghouse for awhile. Have been there before when I bought a second Corvette on a whim, because it was such a good deal Looks like I have time to change my mind.

[@garywozniak7742]

I watched an interview with Chris Anthony awhile back where they discussed the "option" of a clear hatch. It didn't sound like anything they were going to make available quickly. He also said that the view is kind of useless fue the height of the tail and that he found himself looking at the camera displays rather then trying to look through the back. I quess it would allow light in but I think that might just warm the inside up during the summer.

[@pstoppani]

Excellent analysis. You mention the skin cooling in the video; is that still part of the car? I thought it was gone.

[@passivlife]

As far as I know its still 100% there. They also have an internal liquid and air cooling system for very hot days when the Aptera is dcfc. I think that's where the confusion comes from.

[@n.brucenelson5920]

The PI Apterae have an even more advanced version of the original skin cooling design that has multiple cooling loops. I am very excited for how it contributes to the overall performance.

[@deanmcmanis9398]

Nice video as usual. Sharing...

[@trey1531]

Why would anyone use fold out solar panels on the regular? That sounds really inconvenient. Also what if you park in a garage?

[@passivlife]

? Not saying everyone should use fold outs. That would be silly. But for anyone on a camping trip it's perfect. On the second point, I assume you're referring to solar. If you park in a garage during the daytime, then the benefit of solar is lost, but not the benefit of extreme efficiency.

[@danmccoy6164]

Not to mention. Most people work during the day. And car isn't in the garage. Plus the perfect camping/adventure vehicle.

[@danmccoy6164]

Or if you're into watching zombie movies. The perfect bug out vehicle. Lol.

[@MikeTrieu]

It seems like you're just asking rhetorical questions. Of course a SEV isn't going to charge when your intentionally shield it from the sun. Are you just trolling?

[@DblOSmith]

Model 3 LR peak charge power is 250kw not 180.

[@passivlife]

170kw for the standard and 210kw for the performance. The charger is 250kw. Nothing to do with the actual charging curve.

[@DblOSmith]

@@passivlife Nevermind.

[@ATORO1]

​@@passivlifeYou got some wrong information. There are many reliable supercharger charging testes and charging curve graphs you can easily search for showing casually peaks at 250kW on model3 LR and performance.

[@passivlife]

I will check it out again, but literally, all the sources I checked said otherwise.

[@passivlife]

I think you mean the old models. Like I said in the video, the new models have a much lower peak. The old models did used to hit 250kw that's true, but not the new ones. Thanks for tge heads up anyway.

[@Steve-io8qz]

Will aptera have a battery temperature gauge?

[@passivlife]

All ev batteries need one to monitor the battery and prevent thermal runaway. I don't know if this information will be visible from the console however.

[@johnt6508]

Excellent video, thanks!

[@DeepFriarShow]

Not mention, lower charge speeds are better for battery longevity

[@passivlife]

Also true but seems to be less critical than we first thought. A lot of old teslas seem to be just fine despite a lot of super charging. Seems to be more about the battery chemistry and quality of the battery management software. Thanks for pointing it out though.

[@garywozniak7742]

​​@@passivlifeI've read that "LiFePO4 batteries will outlast lithium-ion for up to five times longer.". I believe Trsla is using LFP and Aptera is using lithium-ion due to its higher power density and lower weight. So I suspect that regular fast charging of Aptera's battery may put a bigger hit on battery life than fast charging an LFP battery.

[@thomascorbett2936]

I live in Ohio , and my first long journey will be to New Mexico but I don't really know why . 😆

[@Airman749]

Why not??? 😂 Visit the caverns and Roswell, it would fit in great at Roswell

[@danmccoy6164]

Because the aliens are subconsciously calling you there.

[@Airman749]

@@danmccoy6164 ohhh soo that’s what that voice is in my head! 😂

[@thomascorbett2936]

@@Airman749 Cool, great idea .

[@thomascorbett2936]

@@danmccoy6164 Thanks, now it all makes sense .

[@shaystern2453]

all they have to do is produce it and watch as it flys off the charts!

[@pappydanny53]

Your making my brain hurt trying to figure out the miles per hour your talking about

[@universeisundernoobligatio3283]

For DC fast charging, some engineering questions - How much will it add to the cost? Since nothing is for free. - How much extra complexity to the cooling system be required? - How much weigh will it add? - Will battery degradation happen faster with small battery and high charge rates? - How much will these engineering changes delay delivery? Still looking froward to my Aptera In Canada expecting 50% of the rated solar for 8 months of the year, rest of the year around 5%. An engineering review of solar powered EV's by some one that already has a solar powered EV kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnrSnIGkn9qUo5o

[@passivlife]

The DC fast charging was planned from the beginning as standard so it is included in the 2019 cost, but we are expecting a small price jump anyway because those costs are now out of date. Because it was already planned there is no added complexity for cooling and no added weight, unless they decide to increase the charge speed further. Battery degredation will be carefully managed, this might mean a slightly slower peak speed for the 25kwh. The 40-60 is based on the 40kwh batt. There should be no additional delay from dc as they only need to validate it. The design and base specs are complete. Hope that helps.

[@universeisundernoobligatio3283]

@@passivlife Sorry it was taken out for a reason

[@jamesstpatrick8493]

Most will only get 30 miles from solar.. It may not be worth it in NE

[@GoClimbARockEh]

30 miles a day is still worthwhile. Most EVs lose range each day if they're just sitting there. Aptera gains mileage instead. That's game changing

[@passivlife]

Very true, but then most people only drive 30 miles a day on average. Don't forget that the extreme efficiency also means it only uses a third of the energy to fill even without any sun. In the far north you might average only 10 miles per day from solar. Take that off the 1 third and its next to nothing to fill up.

[@jamesstpatrick8493]

@@GoClimbARockEh My car is in garage. Solar no benefit

[@jamesstpatrick8493]

@@passivlife True. But I still feel just getting solar on home will be more worth it as car goes down in value over time.. Solar systems on home will increase the overall value, thus just get solar on home. Its a big expense.. But all depends on the user..

[@passivlife]

I would recommend that too. House first, with a decent sized battery, then you can mostly power an EV anyway, as long as you can get plenty of panels. Most people on this channel probably already have them is my guess.

[@thomascorbett2936]

Wow, you talk fast .

[@MikeTrieu]

Not fast enough. I increased playback speed 300% 😅

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

🤗👍😎💚💚💚

[@Frank71]

7 mph. And you are truly desperate. Let it sit in the full sun for a 2 or 3 hours in a open lot like a grocery store. Then can make it to supercharger or DCFC.