Middle-earth Lorecast - 04, The Fall of Arnor, Part II

[@otwk]

I would argue that the plague likely is of Saurons making. There are several reasons for that. 1) There are no other plagues like this noted in the History of Arda, as far as I am aware - except the time Morgoth created a plague which devastated Dor-Lomin. 2) It bears similarities not only to the Event mentioned above, but also the Dagor Bragollach in some way. 3) It would fit Sauron. Especially since it appears to kill the White Tree in Gondor - somewhat unusual for a plague which kills humans. 4) The text links it directly to Sauron, it makes it seems like he let his own forces suffer the collateral damage so he could return to Mordor - "what he chiefly desired". 5) It would be extremely convenient to have the only natural plague in history occur just right in time to clean up in your home when you return from a long absence, wouldn't it? [6) I also always linked it to poison gas in war - even without thinking about Tolkiens background - which is also a device to kill enemies, not natural. But this hardly counts I'd say.] "Later it was noted that [the Great Plague] happened even as the Shadow grew deep in Greenwood, and many evil things reappeared, signs of the arising of Sauron. It is true that the enemies of Gondor also suffered, or they might have overwhelmed it in its weakness; but Sauron could wait, and it may well be that the opening of Mordor was what he chiefly desired."

[@benjaminbeddow1421]

'But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses.' This quote seems to imply that Arvedui and his followers were being actively pursued by the Witch-King and hid in the old Dwarf mines out of desperation and that he didn't have the time to go to Lindon. Keep up the good work Galu I need more of Tolkien's lore in my life.

[@akiramasashi9317]

I can only speculate that Arvedui didn't want to paint a target on Mithlond by fleeing there.

[@Dadecorban]

There can be little doubt of who was next on the menu either Lindon or Rivendale....Rivendale was close enough that the Dwarves of Moria might have intervened but Lindon was isolated. It's additionally it was to Lindon that he sent his son, and to Lindon for a ship to aid him and to Lindon that ship would have gone once Arvedui was aboard which sort of invalidates that point. Perhaps if Angmar was a traditional Kingdom that pursued the war in order to expand its domain, and then would make treaties, demand homage, consolidate it's gains and exist in the overall political ecosystem as a traditional player it might have made sense to avoid drawing attention to Lindon. However Angmar was not a traditional kingdom, it was a suicidal religious war machine designed to destroy first Arnor and then the Noldor, and then everyone everyone else; the Witch King didn't need anyone to paint anything for him. = )

[@JoseHernandez-xf9oh]

I would love to hear you talk about celebrimbor and the Gwait-i-Mirdain. I don't know if there is much more about it, I know that Gil-Galad and a king of Numenor had to intervene to expulse Sauron or Eregion.

[@TheAUTcheker]

Absolutely LOVING this series. Thank you for making this, really appreciate it!

[@Pinkerton000]

This may be a bit of a stretch, but is it not possible that Arvedui thought that the choice he had to make was where to go after the mines? Perhaps he thought that going to Lindon was the path of more hope and instead chose to go elsewhere. Alternatively, He probably would have had to go south along the eastern foot of the blue mountains in order to reach Lindon, and it is possible that this region would have been overrun with Angmar's forces, so he went a different direction instead. Fornost had fallen and they had held out in the North Downs, so when they fled, it's likely they fled in a sort of north-westerly direction, probably going north around the Emyn Uial. As a result of this, they probably reached the Blue Mountains quite far north. After all, nobody ever says precisely WHERE the Dwarven mines were. So, they may have been extremely close to the bay of Forochel. Since it was winter, food would have been harder to come by on the trip south, also. I don't know, there are a lot of possible reasons for them to head east instead of south. By the way, I have been watching your videos for a long time. You have hands down the best Tolkien lore content on KZbin. Keep it up.

[@nikoszaxarias5200]

That's probably right. After overrunning of Fornost, the Witch King, who was indeed in sheer knowledge who was Arvendui and his role, cut the roads to south, so as to catch the last king of Arnor and end there the line of the kings- perhaps after an order from Sauron. Later, Sauron seeked the descendants of Isildur, so as to have no challenger- as we learn from Aragorn's tale- so we can suppose that this was the mission of the Witch King. The most obvious road to safety for the Dunedain is southwest to Lindon and Cirdan, so is the most obvious target for search and capture. With routes to Lindon cut, Arvendui had no other opton than go north. Pinkerton00 says the other perfectly, I have nothing more to add. And of course, Galu's lore videos are a must to every Tolkien fan.

[@axelhyltan]

Listning on my way to work ❤👍

[@Youtuber-xs9cp]

Losaths have confused Witch King of Angmar with the Night King of Westeros

[@gabe1597]

These have been a real treat. Thank you. Keep up the good work :)

[@Kirshara85]

Always nice to see a new Lorecast!

[@rozed]

Incredible insight as always! Love your videos dude keep it up please!!

[@celionovais6273]

Hi Gallu, about the question of the remnants of the Dúnedain hiding in the abbandoned dwarven mines in the Blue Mountains (Ered Luin). I guess they didn"t flee from there to Mithlond because the easiest way was travelling through the Lhûn River, but the Angmarin Hordes hold all the Lhún River defensive lines, maybe they crossed the river to hunt down the Dúnedains and attack the Elves on the borders planning a potential offensive against them. The only way to reach Mithlond would be crossing the mountains, but they didn't know these secret paths that only the Dwarves from there used to know. And if you read some Tolkien's notes you'll known that most of the Dwarven clans of the Blue Mts (the Firebeards and Broadbeams) after the War of Wrath fled to the southern range thats was divided/cut (cuz of the cataclysms of the War of Wratg and the Sunk of Beleriand) by the Bay of Lhûn, and others even fled to Khazad-Dum, so, problably they didn't find any dwarve there, and even if they find someone, probably they were so scattered tha they didn't know a safe way to Mithlond. So, concernign this situation, I guess the only way is fleeing to the North, to the Cape of Forochel and from there take a boat to Mithlond. Good lore-cast Gallu, keep going. Greetings from Brazil.

[@warriodog120]

First of, awesome video! Unrelated to this specific video but I was wondering is there a place I can view the name of the music within DaC? There's a specific theme within the Ar Adunaim playlist and I am very eager to discover what it's from as it's bugging me. Thanks in advance and keep up the awesome stuff!

[@Jaacoopp]

Thanks!

[@Jack-zl6ov]

On a slightly different topic... I know you play through Skyrim, but have you ever considered making a playthrough series of the Shadow of Mordor/War games, or is that not your type of game?

[@valentintapata2268]

Gondorians didn't want Arvedui to became king of reunited Arnor and Gondor, and rather chose Eärnil II after the death of king Ondoher and his heirs. The prophecy was about this; Gondor rejected an Isildur's heir (and a husband of Ondoher's daughter), ruler of a small and weak kingdom to the north, and rather choose a victorious general (who was a distant relative to Ondoher) for a new king. Son of Eärnil II was Eärnur, the last king of Gondor. They choose an option that seemed safer to them in the moment, but was a bad decision in a longer run. EDIT: After the fall of Fornost is too late for prophetic rulership of a vast and powerful kingdom of northern Dunedains. After all, after the destruction of Angmar, Aranarth could establish a new Arnor, there weren't any (meaningful) enemy's left, but his people were also gone. People (nation) is more important than land.

I have seen both your argument and my own suggested as the choice Arvedui had to make. There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer but I would submit that as the prophecy was given on Arvedui's birth, it is more likely the decision relates to his actuons and not the greater Dúnedain as a whole. Although I can also see the argument in that as well!

[@valentintapata2268]

​@ The timing of a prophecy is not important (in general sense), but it must describe future events. First prophecy of Malbeth: "Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dúnedain arise and are united again." ― Appendix A So, it was a choice for the Dunedain - if the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor unite under Arvedui they will stand strong, otherwise they will have to wait for a long time until Aragorn comes. - The second prophecy is about awakening of the oathbreakers which was done by Aragorn.

[@valentintapata2268]

The choice was being made by Arnorian (manly Arvedui) and Gondorian (mainly steward Pelendur) elite, and the Gondorians blew it.

Whilst I note the Dúnedain taking Arvedui as their combined King is the more likely of the two options of the prophecy, it is simply not set in stone. Tolkien did not say what specific event Malbeth was referencing. Remember that if Arvedui had stayed with the Lossoth, then only a few months later the army of Gondor would arrive and save the north altogether. I am afraid I think this is for each reader to decide on their own. :)

[@valentintapata2268]

@ And Arvedui would became the first chieftain, the only important difference would be the two palantiri. With that end Tolkien provided a clearer cut with Arnorian kingdom and rid himself of palantiri which are a (too)powerful magical objects.

[@giovannicolombini95]

Why Didn't Lindon send help Turing the Battle of fornost ?

[@michelmorio8026]

Perhaps Arvedui thought that of the less hopeful from the prophecy; to go to Forochel instead of Lindon

[@Noodle5858]

To think, if Avadwi had not boarded the Lindon ship. Then instead of the longwinded fellowship story arc of Aragorn, trying to find his foothold in the hearts of men to be their king. Instead, an Arnorian army gleaming in silver marching down from the north. Aragorn spurring the sleepy elves to march with men once more. Stopping Saruman from falling corrupt and seeing a grand army of both men and elves bringing hope once again. Rohirrim, joining the ranks marching towards the black gates. Upon reaching Gondor the reunited kingdom is fulfilled and all of the free world marches on the black gates. Getting Frodo to mount doom on a silver platter. Sauron would "GG" upon the sight of so much awesomeness.

[@valentintapata2268]

That would not be the case, if king Arvedui survived, he would simply became the first chieftain of the Rangers of the North and not his son Aranarth. What would be important is that the two palantiri; Annúminas-stone and Amon Sûl-stone would not be lost at sea.

[@Dadecorban]

@@valentintapata2268 Indeed, the kingdom was lost. Arvedui's son could have just as easily crowned himself. In either case there was no country to rule. The only difference may have been that if Arvedui had lived, he probably wouldn't have uncrowned himself....and he and his line might have existed as Kings in exile in Lindon or elsewhere (rather than entirely abandoning the Kingship) and this might have encouraged them to try to take up dominion of repopulated lands prior to LOTR. (Bree, Shire)

[@valentintapata2268]

@@Dadecorban I think that is true that he would kept the (now meaningless) title until his death. But his descendant's would still be chieftains until Aragorn. You can't name yourself king (even exiled one), if your kingdom is gone. The nation of Arnor was gone. it would be ridiculous calling himself a king of perhaps a few hundred people. Before the end Arthedain (or officially renewed Arnor) was probably more like a city state with Fornost the only rely important settlement. After the fall of Fornost and Angmar Eriador became almost empty if you don't count the Hobbits and the Elves whose population was also small. Edit: there were wild people in some numbers south of the Gwathlo, but they were not of Arnorian stock.

[@Dadecorban]

@@valentintapata2268 Not true. History is replete with examples of royal families in exile that retain their titles. They impose on their host nations, try to garner support for campaigns to retake their countries or depose their rivals and so forth. Although the Arnorian lands were depopulated they were not empty. If the King had survived, retained his title, received support from Lindon, and pursued ambitions (or his son) they might have assumed control of a small to moderate sized town on the periphery of one of the former Arnorian states, provided a haven for refugees, and eventually pushed out to secure additional surrounding lands and populate them with the refugees. They might have been able to eek by and struggle to eventually build something. It would have been a difficult struggle. The difference between being a King in Exile and a Dunedain Chieftain is the attitude of one person and that one personal decision that reverberates through the ages. After a generation has passed most of the remaining inhabitants of past Arnorian lands will have no memory of nationhood, only stories of former greatness. You have a generation to try to get a foothold and rebuild something or all the names lose their meanings, the battles are just folktales, and claims to the symbols of power (held in Rivendale) lose their authority. (at least when you have a civilization collapse this is true) Arvedui's son made this decision for his whole line. Gondor and Arnor themselves were established by a few thousand refugees of a great disaster who immediately established Numenorian Kingdoms in Exile based on their lineal connections to the line of Elros and the Kings of Numenor. They did not have to do this......they could have established minor lordships based around the Numenorian colonies and simply survived in exile. But the energy and enthusiasm of Elendil, his heirs, and their followers was such that they immediately tried to recreate the glory and splendor of Numenor. The royal line of Arthedain gave up. The Gondorians also could have attempted to rebuild it. They also gave up. This is not a moral judgement on my part, simple an observation. It's the story that Tolkien wanted to tell. However, within the logic of the world Tolkien created, or the world we live in which it is based on, relinquishing the Kingship was not inevitable.

[@valentintapata2268]

@@Dadecorban History is full of exiled royal families whose nations still existed, that wasn't the case here, Tolkien tells us the land was almost empty. But the Dunedain could rule over Bree (a mere village which should be a fortified large town in the time of Arnor, but the place was always small and without a wall), they didn't. Not everything that Tolkien wrote was logical (Dwarves, a civilisation completely without farming and husbandry is a prime example). When Numenorian refugees came, there were some Numenorian colonist already here, and what is a lot more important, other people were here. Dunedain rule over these people (Adunaic, Cardolain, Rhudaurian,...), they were the backbone of the country, Dunedain were mostly just a thin layer of elite. Only northern parts of Arthedain had a bigger population of Dunedain stock. Now, logicaly the population history would played out differently, but that is not the case in Tolkien's story. He needed a barren country hiding a Christ like figure who would rescue a down fallen people and revived the land. It's a mythos, not a history.

[@JamesVele]

make a lorecast for how make the rigns

[@ricardodeleon3041]

Pardon my ignorance but where was this piece of lore gotten? It reminds me lot of an old EA game called Battle for Middle Earth: Rise of the Witch King which I thought was not considered canonical.

This is all from the appendices and unfinished tales. The game is based on events that actually happened.

[@ricardodeleon3041]

@ Thanks a lot for the response, I have not yet read the unfinished tales so I will give it a shot given how much has it been mentioned to me. Anyway thanks for the excellent quality video, and hope you receive more support as time comes.

[@DuBaas007]

Hey Arachir, how do you know that the city is not destroyed Babylon style? I'd imagine the Witch-King not being very kind to the city after so many hundreds of years trying to kill off Arnor. In the time of the War of the Ring, it's just grassy plains, no real renmants, to me it does sound like he would just completely demolish it.

AT the time of WotR Fornost still stands and is known as Deadman's Dike. The Rangers camp within the ruins.

[@DuBaas007]

@ After the battle of Fornost in 1975 that land was deserted, 'leaving only green mounds in the grassy hills.' FotR, Book II, Ch 2, The Council of Elrond RotK, Appendix A, I, iii, Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur Maybe it could've been the battle of Fornost that completely wrecked the place, but it's gone, no ruins left, only grassy mounds by the time of the WoR.

[@mr.foxtrot1381]

@@DuBaas007 Are you referring to the actual Fall of Fornost, or are you referring to the Battle of Fornost that took place after. I don't have the books on hand, so I can't go take a look, but if you are referring to the Battle of Fornost, the battle took place on the fields outside of Fornost, not in the city itself like the siege and subsequent Fall of Fornost. As I mentioned earlier, I don't have the books on hand, so I can't look at it, but if I recall correctly the city fell in TA. 1974, and the Battle of Fornost took place one year later outside the city in TA. 1975.

[@DuBaas007]

@@mr.foxtrot1381 I meant the latter one yeah, so the only way for the city to be a bunch of grassy mounds by the time of the WoR is if the Witch-King destroyed it. It's not like the Witch-King would be doing what real historical people haven't done before, hell, people have done way worse things to their enemies, so it makes sense to me that he would just demolish Fornost.

[@mr.foxtrot1381]

@@DuBaas007 That may be a valid point, but I typically follow the idea that his objective was to destroy the Dúnedain as a people, not necessarily wipe out every last trace of them. If he was attempting to wipe every trace of the Dúnedain off the map, then would it stand to reason that he would've completely destroyed Amon Sûl? As far as I'm concerned, he is attempting to wipe out the people, and not necessarily their cities and fortresses.

[@fabiandonvil]

it is my belief that should arvedui have made it to safety(and all other events transpire as normal), he would've been able to call together the remnants of his ppl and claim dominion over the lesser ppls living in eriador to help rebuild his realm(something his son couldn't do since he technically wasn't crowned a king even if he claimed kingship). Or he could have asked gondor for relief and earnur would have been bound to provide support as the king of arnor asked for aid. Gondor would've been far less inclined to provide aid to a "chieftain" than they would a "king". Then when earnur dies in combat against the witch king arvedui could have either claimed kingship over arnor and gondor or sent one of his sons to rule gondor in his stead, becoming the ruler of the two kingdoms in all but name. if you ask me this araphor had no ambition at all if he gave up the title of king(even if it's a king in name only) and would have been a perfect puppet ruler for his father. This would eventually result in a strong arnor that would have been able to help Gondor against their foes and would likely result in Rohan never being founded.

[@Dadecorban]

There is no reason to believe that Arvedui's heir would have been any less legitimate. In Medieval Europe the church often crowned a new monarch because it was seen as having higher authority. In Middle Earth nothing outside of Valinor (for those actually believe the Elf legends, and history of Numenor that survives) has authority over a King of Gondor or Arnor. When a King dies his steward or regent (likely) would have crowned the successor. This official crowning, when there are no other heirs, is a formality. It's a symbol that only has structural significance when there might be a succession struggle, or the heir is not of age and the crowning must be postponed to a later date and there is an interregnum. Suffice it to say that there is no real reason for any refugee of Arthedain or Cardolan to view Arvedui's heir as any less legitimate just because he was crowned by some knight in his retinue rather than a regent of steward. Conceivably, Elrond could have crowned Arvedui after Angmar was defeated as Elrond is the living brother of the original King of Numenor, and this could have actually been more significant to the Dunedain and perhaps the common folk than just being crowned by some Lord who happened to have the job of steward at the time of the death of the Kingdom. (also keep in mind that no King in these days crowns his heir before the King dies, so Arvedui like all Arnornian heirs would have to be crowned afterwards) I also believe that he could have attempt to rebuild the realm. Not everyone wants to ice skate up-hill though or commit their whole line to doing so.