Lore of Middle-earth - Battles of the Fords of Isen

[@hazwood9758]

Hearing galu say positive things about rohans military is a real shock to the system

[@Pinkerton000]

A NOTE ON COMPANIES: The term only came into use in the 17th century, so its precise application to Tolkien's dark ages-based mythos is not totally clear. Typically, a company is about 100-150 men, but possibly as low as 60-80. It originates from ancient military units, such as the Roman century, which comprised of 60-100 men depending on the time period. The idea is that it is a large enough unit to group several together into a large army, but small enough that it can be reasonably commanded by a single person using their voice and musical assistance (drums, horns, etc.). Because of this purpose of the grouping, a company of horsemen is likely to err on the smaller side, closer to 60, due to the fact that cavalrymen are more mobile and do not fight in such a dense formation. The precise number of men is not extremely important. What is important is that a company is as large a group as reasonably possible that can be individually commanded by a single person. Thus, it represents the most convenient divisibility of the army. If they have 8 companies of horsemen, then they have 8 company commanders under the main leader of the army, and their tactics are going to revolve around how they divvy up 8 units. Generally, however, 8 companies of horsemen should number, very roughly speaking, somewhere approaching 500.

[@Tar-Elenion]

In this case, he is most likely using company as a synonym for eored, which at this time consisted of 120 men.

[@VojislavMoranic]

Like the old Slavic armies. They come as a Plk (regiment) raid and when full with loot they split into Druzhina's which also guard each tribes land.

[@Luke_______]

Just to help with everyone's imagination as there listening to this I hope this information will be helpful. When it comes to unit sizes when Tolkien mentions company's, he could either be referring to medieval times version of company's which are called Centaines. These contain 100 men normally. Or he could be using unit designations and sizes referring to early 20th century Military forces, of which a company would consist of about 6 officers and 250 men. This of course just being the generalized form of company without getting into specific unit types I.e. Artillary, Cav, and logistics. I personally think these are the Unit sizes he would be describing considering his time spent being a soldier in WW1. Also a Company of Cavalry during this time would include between 6-800 men split into 10 squadrons of 60-80 men a peice. One more added detail Ventaines, Centaines, and Millenaries where the norm when it comes to unit sizes in medieval warfare with each unit containing 20, 100, and 1000 men respectively Hope this helps everybody and thank you for the video Arachir, I love your content. Keep up the great work! Much love from Missouri, USA

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Well from how knowledgeable Tolkien is i assume he is using medieval time unit sizes i think. makes sense as well for the size of the armies of the middle earth nations.

[@Tar-Elenion]

In this case, he is most likely using company as a synonym for eored, which at this time consisted of 120 men.

[@mattgrandich3977]

Thank you, very detailed account of the battles of the Fords of Isen. Subscribed.

I am grateful for your support but do know that I am actually leaving KZbin. I hope you find something to watch in my library but there won't be anything new really.

[@renniefraser1196]

I could listen to these all day long. One of the best things to listen to while working.

[@salez9830]

Eored had 120 men, that was the company of the local lord at his immediate disposal.

[@stetsonstarkey]

I really hope you come back one day

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

though in the end the battles for the fords of Isen ended in Rohan's defeat, but the sacrifice of those brave men and the king's own blood brought time, time enough for our heroes to rally Thoedeon and prepare for war, Time enough that the armies of Isengard did not get to plunder and burn the defenceless towns, villages and slaughter the Innocents within them. Yet this is all done behind the scenes, unsung heroes to the reader.

[@jessegreen6138]

This is about how big a horse would have been. The average horse would have been between 14 - 16 hands tall during medieval times that is only 56-64 inches or 142 -164 cm tall. Remember the knights were said to be able to leap into the saddle without using the stirrups. This was while wearing full armor. Greetings from Texas, Sir.

[@RJ1J]

How on Earth did you continue after saying "Theodred's botty" without cracking up?? What professionalism!.

[@Sacrilege83]

"Mygovanon mellonine and well met indeed. I'm Arohirgaladurothen, head of themoddingteambehindivideandconque,welcome to another lore video..."

[@dissident4226]

I love the background music choice here.. Nice job!

[@johnnybhoff226]

Agreed

[@bloodyiris3]

Love it. Very interesting to hear about the logistics of this so often brushed over battle(s).

[@positivelynegative3260]

These lore videos are awesome!

[@marioschr8181]

Loved the grim nights background music

I don't know what grim knights is.

[@marioschr8181]

@ 10:49 Grim nights is a 2D wave survival indie game where you build up your base and try to survive for 13 nights

[@andrewgilchrist1816]

Enjoying the lore videos! Good work Galu

[@calebphillips5185]

Love these, keep up the great work!

[@blacktears6140]

I love these videos, I watch them on my way to and from work and must say thank you for these amazing videos and your amazing work on DaC!

[@shepardcommander6811]

very well put together video, really interesting

[@liechtli]

Why did you delete your old lore videos? Are you goning to redo them? Keep up the amazing work, i absolutley love it!

[@Bman.1990]

Would be cool if you try to re-enact these battles in divide & conquer

[@sternonisoil]

Hell yeah, more lore

[@MrBb3k]

Would have been nice to see Theodred fight for a bit. For years I used to think that Rohan were great because of their armor and things but after getting into learning about armor and horses for animation, I learned they're very light compared to Gondor or Dol Amroth. It was nice hearing this video. Because it puts that into perspective. Rohan really needs the weight of a charge to be any successful and once it's halted it's no good. Especially when going up against long spears and trenches. If one considers the movie when you see the rohirrim under Eomer looking for Theodred's body you can see how rustic they are. Some are lucky to have mail and others have some scale and mixed leather. Combining that with seeing Eomer and Theodred's armor in terms of their action figures, Theodred probably couldn't hold very long in that kind of a fight. So it was a blessing to have Elfhelm arrive when he did. If he had a pretty bug company of honor guard and horsemen, it would have been comparable to the knights of the Vale charge against the Boltons to save Jon Snow. Although they wore plate it still was a comparable cavalry charge similar to Elfhelm's. Not to combine different stories but this is the closest thing I could come up with to give the video more substance with my observation and understanding of how Rohan could be fighting in the Ford. Love your work, the mod, and am excited to the next version of Dac.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

You know what Rohan might not have much armour, but compared to the orcs and most other forces of darkness in LOTR they are well armed and armoured in comparison. Which just makes Gondor even more amazing and helps to explain how they where able to hold against Mordor for so many centuries on there own.

[@Bluemilk92]

Awesome!

[@LordWardenOfThePrivy]

How come your voice gets smoother as the years pass? Apply for Classic FM already.

[@stewie2436]

I believe it was actually pippin who gave the estimate of ten thousand orcs, half orcs, and wild men, as him, merry, and the ents watched all of isengard become emptied.

[@lordwurm450]

In Unfinished Tales it is stated that an full Éored is not under 120 riders.

[@annuntirith7314]

The Battle of Helm’s Deep is the 3rd of March.

[@marcusantoniuskase9770]

@ Galu, i have searched all the map for the region/city of Isen Bay. Were is it??? In order to play Dunland this is kinda vital.

Ask on the forums. They'll be able to help you better than I.

[@marcusantoniuskase9770]

Arachîr Galudirithon thanks for answering, have a nice day 😁

[@jeffhreid]

So today is the anniversary of the battle? Cool

[@vincentkhatibi1439]

Would you like to read kamul and wk still?

[@PhillipChalabi]

Yesssssss!

[@lelleeriks8241]

Tolkien was not a good tactician, he seems to lack knowledge of medieval battles. The Ford, Helms Deep, Pelenor Field and how Minas Thirids are defended are not the best imaginable, although men leading the forces should be better

[@otwk]

Then how would you say these places should have been defended?

[@jeffhreid]

Only True Witch-King defense in depth would make more sense, in my opinion. They don’t make good use of the outer defenses. This may be because the population of Rohan and Gondor may have been depleted at that time. Depleted population certainly impacted Arnor during the wars with the Witch King

[@nikoszaxarias5200]

Well, interesting story. Of course, Tolkien is a linguist, he has no idea of medieval warfare, which is also an interesting field of knowledge. Indeed, this chapter is very good, but the info missing is provident of his lack of specialist knowledge. As we can understand, Saruman knows about Rohan's hierarcy through Grima's information, that's why Isenguard's army pushes hard against Theondred. Saruman knows that only a general with full authority can muster the Rohirrim, someone close to the king, neither Elfhelm nor Grimbold, not either Erkenbrand. Only Theodred or Eomer could do it, and since Grima couldn't provoke a civil war, these two should die in the field. It is what we call "regicide war" and what you did in Rohan in your Isenguard campaign. The first battle was a success for Isenguard, as the purpose was to kill Theodred. The second battle was to free the pass for the main force, which was also a success. Of course, Saruman has a very good idea of strategy, so he distributes his weapons and forces to achieve his main purpose. His planfalls apart because Gandalf arrives in the scene, he musters the scattered men, he finds Erkenbrand, Elfhelm and Grimbold. But also, Theoden's stance aids this plan, so Isenguard plays all in all in one strike, which fails, so comes the endgame for Saruman and his ambitions. Have a nice time, looking forward for your next videos.

[@otwk]

Tolkien actually had quite a lot of kowledge of medieval warfare, which can be seen for example in these two battles, and the war in Gondor. He takes into account supplies, strategies, command structures, morale and logistics, among many other things; and he does so quite realistically.

[@ChiefSmackahoLLC]

I've never understood this particular battle because I feel like most of it makes no sense. I think maybe Tolkien got too into using the _fords_ as a setting and had to drag his characters through too many plotting problems to contrive a reason why the battle needed to happen "here" and the result is this. I know Tolkien had military experiences in WW1 so it's very odd to me that his characters and armies (particularly the heroes on the side of good) come up with such ludicrous strategies to handle what is obviously a pretty straightforward defense objective. The goal is to defend Rohan, right?.. and not to defend the shallow fords of a single river two hundred miles away to the west of your city? I would expect a sane leader of an almost 100% elite cavalry army to never _ever_ get bogged down by fighting in a specific small area given the mobility he has with horse mounted infantrymen. So the real final goal is to eliminate the enemy in this situation; there's nothing to capture, nobody to rescue (at first) and nothing seems to be gained by doing so in this very particular spot. Especially when it's pointed out that Saruman has other optional crossing locations. (An argument could be made about the potential danger to towns and farms but since Tolkien points out that "Dunland wild men" are tending to those anyway, I don't think it matters.) Hand waving doesn't make that go away as eventually Saruman *must* cross the river _somewhere_ and march his troops to a final place of battle. This entire Rohirrim force should have been dedicated to running down Saruman's orks immediately after they passed the Gap of Rohan, or on the fields past the fords but before the Gap, while those forces were *strung out on the march* . This is exactly the strategy that Saruman uses in a different setting with Warg riders to harass the refugees headed to Helm's Deep; and it is only different from Erkenbrand's plan in that Erkenbrand again tries to predict a specific area to charge at the Orks (area next to the ford rather than in it) rather than to force the situation with the massive mobility advantage, as Eomer's band does near Fangorn. The Rohirrim have the entirety of the fields of Rohan as familiar ground and they can scout Saruman's forces on the field with impunity. He needs to march his troops in the wide open. They could have to turned that into a killing field. Eomer's band seems to illustrate this perfectly with how they run down the Uruks carrying the hobbits near Fangorn. Instead, Theodred parks his horses in the rocky shallows of the river (the last place in the world into which you want a horse to gallop!) and assumes the enemy is only going to come from one direction? Then the reinforcements do pretty much the same thing two days later? What is going on? 🤯 How is any of this taking advantage of ELITE CAVALRY? 😅 I guess Eomer was the only one who got that training.. How much more delaying action against Saruman could have been achieved by scouting the Orks on the march and constantly forcing them to stop and set up a defense against 8 companies of elite cavalry operating with plenty of space to charge from any direction? Maybe it doesn't make for the setting of a dramatic last stand but it seems the way to take the best advantage of a large cavalry force like the Rohirrim operating in a an open area. Tolkien does use Rohirrim effectively in other places. I don't know if that factors into this particular battle being an "unfinished tale" but it definitely has a lot in common with some other battles in which Tolkien's forces of Good always seem to fight courageously and valiantly but for some reason, stupidly.

[@BlackBulletRave]

First :^)