Aragorn's Tax Policy: A Take on GRRM's quote

[@briaryos1]

This is why fairy tales end soon after the wedding and they live happily ever after.

[@stormblessed178]

Great vid! Personally I always took G.R.R.M s argument as more a comment on personal preference and on how Tolkien (and therefore fantasy as a whole) didn't really focus on those sort of questions. However even if it was meant to be a definite critique of Tolkien's story you've managed to give a nice rebuttal anyway.

[@platypipope328]

the biggest issue with George RR martin's questions is that both can fairly easily be inferred from the book 1. what was his tax policy probably didn't have one of any substance given he was ruling a feudal realm and not a byzantine-style bureaucracy. therefore the question goes from "what was aragorn's tax policy" to "what was aragorn's subject's tax policy?" 2. did aragorn genocide the orcs? no, as most of them killed themselves when barad-ur fell, and the ones that didn't are far too small and far away for gondor to be able to do anything to them, and even then exterminating orcs in tolkien's setting would be no more immoral than quelling a pest population so the question's intent of asking about morality of kings goes away

[@fantasywind3923]

Some forms of taxation certainly existed in Middle-earth, among them the tolls and tributes being primary, and one of the letters it is mentioned that Numenoreans in second age in time of colonial power were "tax gatherers". "In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 131 But obviously it would be within that older time sense, as for bureaucracy, there are definitely many offices, titles, ranks there is Council of Gondor, ther are various offices like Warden of the Keys and so on, we hear there were "ministers of the crown concerned with 'intelligence'" (those were permitted to use the palantiri in the past along with the stone's wardens), usually the kings in Tolkien's works be it mortal or elven or other, they have some sort of advisors, or advising bodies in type of royal council (even dwarven kings I guess would have some sort of council meetings, in The Hobbit we read that the Chamber of Thrór was a ".. is the great chamber of Thror," said Thorin; "the hall of feasting and of council." So some sort of administrative bodies must have existed. Economically of course the farming and land would be the basis of economy and revenue, profits from agriculture would be one of the prime elements. Kings owned a lot of land, in Arnor for instance the region where Shire was founded by the Hobbits: "The land was rich and kindly, and though it had long been deserted when they entered it, it had before been well tilled, and there the king had once had many farms, cornlands, vineyards, and woods." Obviously there would be little need to do any sort of great 'campaigns of genocide' for Orcs especially the remnants of Mordor's armies either destroyed themselves, slaughtering each other or slaying themselves in mental shock (Sauron's mind domination when removed could have cause some to be suicidal), while rest fled fara away, and those who remained to pose trouble were minor threat, though obviously there was some action when necessary: "Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting, and in the earlier years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." Letter 244 So no more than bandits, and equal to dealing with 'human' outlaws.

[@EdwardBast]

The narrator of the Lord of the Rings isn't omniscient and it isn't Tolkien, it's Frodo (see Chapter 9 of Book VI). All the events of the narrative are what Frodo directly experienced or what he learned from interviews with the other characters before he wrote it down in the Shire after the events of the tale. There's nothing about Aragorn's tax policy because Frodo would have no interest in this and would know nothing about it. Martin has made a pretty basic error here: He failed to consider the perspective from which the story is told.

[@xnandox]

Great vid! I think Tolkien stayed away from the ordinary things in his sagas, one good example of this is currency, we now they have gold coins but there's no explanation of an economic system, and that's my point TLOTR is about good and evil, he created languages and elaborated geography but he didn't care to explain the more mundane aspects of the middle earth. A good real word example about how taxing and economic systems are not that important are ancient greek and egypt. As a fantasy fan i love all the greek and egipcian gods and mythos, but I really don't care what was the economic aspect of it all. Keep the videos coming!! Can yo do a Witcher video next! Best regards from Uruguay.

[@TheKnightess]

Very interesting comment! I actually had planned on doing a Witcher video next, so keep an eye out for that.

[@xnandox]

@@TheKnightess notifications are on!!

[@fantasywind3923]

To be fair Tolkien give a lot of hints towards economy and that sort of things, he wrote in a letter: "Yours is the only comment that I have seen that, besides treating the book as 'literature', at least in intent, and even taking it seriously (and praising or ridiculing it accordingly), also sees it as an elaborate form of the game of inventing a country - an endless one, because even a committee of experts in different branches could not complete the overall picture. I am more conscious of my sketchiness in the archaeology and realien than in the economics: clothes, agricultural implements, metal-working, pottery, architecture and the like. Not to mention music and its apparatus. I am not incapable of or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the 'mortals' go. Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that economic likelihood is there and could be worked out: Gondor has sufficient 'townlands' and fiefs with a good water and road approach to provide for its population; and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they took it over (no doubt with a good deal of older ans and crafts). The Shire-hobbits have no very great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends) : no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire." And obviously there are numerous hints towards such (and even The Hobbit is largely using those too, as part of the worldbuilding and of course story since the huge part is the wealth accumulated through economic activity, the huge treasure hoard :) and The Hobbit mentions trade: "But the Master was not sorry at all to let them go. They were expensive to keep, and their arrival had turned things into a long holiday in which business was at a standstill."/"The talk was all of the trade that came and went on the waterways and the growth of the traffic on the river, as the roads out of the East towards Mirkwood vanished or fell into disuse; and of the bickerings of the Lake-men and the Wood-elves about the upkeep of the Forest River and the care of the banks."/"Except for occasional squabbles about river-tolls they were friends with the Wood- elves."/"Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him, nor did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position.") lotr also mentions about Beornings: "They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he added with a shake of his head;..." In the end taxation is not that important, though we know that the Numenoreans were once greedy tax collectors, and obviously even Sauron received tribute, which is basically form of taxation. "In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 131

[@Anarchouettisme]

Thank you for this great video, I really like your channel!

[@severinsilmedin2588]

Lord of the rings was supposed to be written by Frodo and it is ancient, every single point could be debated. It is a legend, not a historical account. :)

[@HugoFauzi]

Good content! I just saw all your videos! But also you have a voice and tone that is pleasant to hear. And that is important to no tire the viewers.

[@Balinux]

I'd drop taxes everywhere for a couple of years, except in the major strongholds. That would help the people get back on their feet.

[@ghermaneldermendes3674]

if tolkien did something in the forth age, i would love a book about the challenges that aragorn faced during their reign.

[@porcelainpup]

He did one with 8 pages but I forgot the name

[@Finwaell]

he started to write one, but then abandoned it, said it was a bad idea.

[@fantasywind3923]

Tolkien actually mentions certain wars and expeditions against enemies in the east, these wars are also mentioned in lotr appendices: "Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting, and in the earlier years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." Letter 244 ... In Éomer's day in the Mark men had peace who wished for it, and the people increased both in the dales and the plains, and their horses multiplied. In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Éomer the gift of Cirion, and Éomer took again the Oath of Eorl. Often he fulfilled it. For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Treeh could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Éomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhûn and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Éomer grew old. The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: The House of Eorl So these wars are probably one of the main things, elements of collapsed Sauron's empire remaining hostile could prove dangerous but also in the letters mentioning about the unfinished sequel to lotr story title The New Shadow, Tolkien said that the wars of Aragorn's reign were not nearly as interesting to him: “I did begin a story set about 100 years after the Downfall [of Sauron], but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice, and prosperity would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended form Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a ‘thriller’ about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be just that. Not worth doing.” (Letters no.256) ... “I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldarion about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King’s Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practicing dark cults and ‘orc cults’ among adolescents.)” (Letters no.338)

[@gnome_hat_kynio]

Very good!

[@andresacostaarmas]

Great channel, I really enjoy your videos. Thanks!

[@presterjon291]

Once again a great video

[@ghermaneldermendes3674]

a Video theme suggestion: -what about Silmalirion references in Shadow of mordor and shadow of war ? -your personal take in a story settle in forth age of middle earth (or stories like silmalirion) -A video about melkor maybe?

[@TheKnightess]

Thank you for the suggestions! I might do something Shadow of Mordor/War related down the line but me getting through both games, then gathering footage might take a while.

[@ekehernandez]

So... what was his tax policy?

[@fantasywind3923]

Heh whatever it was I'm certain it was more reasonable, lenient towards the people (especially those in need and difficult situation) than that of his distant Numenorean ancestors hehe :). I mean the Second Age Numenoreans were VERY greedy tax collectors: "In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 131 Heheh. I guess in this regard he would be like...Conan when he was king: “I found Aquilonia in the grip of a pig like you - one who traced his genealogy for a thousand years. The land was torn with the wars of the barons, and the people cried out under suppression and taxation. Today, no Aquilonian noble dares maltreat the humblest of my subjects, and the taxes of the people are lighter than anywhere else in the world.” Heheh, jokes aside, Aragorn moral compass and his wisdom would allow him to balance purely financial needs of running the kingdom and good treatment of the people, in any case the kingdom under Aragorn would experience time of unprecedented economical growth and development, and Aragorn as king Elessar owning a lot of property and land would definitely be rich enough and taxes however they were and tolls, tributes or anything else would be fair and just :).

[@HamanKarn567]

Dragon Age is awesome as are all those fantasy worlds you mentioned.

[@ToastersChannel]

Great take!

[@LiamJRowley]

Enjoying your videos! God bless.

[@tereza1959]

If someone finishes reading The Lord of the Rings or watching the movies and the first thing they think is "What was Aragorn's tax policy" this person deserves to be bullied 😆

[@SophiesDriver]

Tolkien wrote high fantasy. Martin writes soap opera. :-o

[@OljeiKhan]

He doesn't even write. Tha last book that he wrote was in 2011. Since then he only wrote stuff that take the story backwards in time...

[@SophiesDriver]

@@OljeiKhan You probably know more about that than I do, thanks :-) But Elena is doing a great job with In The Tower, isn't she!

[@ekehernandez]

@@OljeiKhan Hahaha - here, inform yourself, buddy. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin#Bibliography

[@ekehernandez]

@@OljeiKhan So he DID write them, didn't he? Hahaha

[@OljeiKhan]

@@ekehernandez when did winds of winter come out?

[@Bartjekingg]

Subscribed, loved your videos!!

[@voldmerot]

There at the end what game is that footage from?

[@TheKnightess]

It's LOTR: War in the North!

[@voldmerot]

@@TheKnightess you have my thanks!

[@fantasywind3923]

@@TheKnightess I like Lotr War in the North as far as games go this one has the particular treatment of lore that is much better than in many other cases, especially better than the Shadow of Mordor/War games and it still also has unique original story and characters :) and even origina invented small dwarf stronghold of Nordinbad it's not strictly canon but it manages to extrapolate and use the book lore with movie aesthetics (in any case it was always said that after the wars with dragons "MOST of the Durin's Folk" abandoned the Grey Mountains :) hehe: "... [The dragons] became strong again and multiplied, and they made war on the dwarves, and plundered their works. At last Dáin I, together with Frór his second son, was slain at the door of his hall by a great cold-drake. Not long after most of Durin's Folk abandoned the Grey Mountains." The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Durin's Folk

[@SittichaiChuathai]

GRRM you are so great in writing novel and fantasy, aren't you!? no one i know rewatch GOT and think of your shallow tales after the show you were born so long after JRR Tokien you copied most of his works you dare ask questions about these things when he is not around to answer anymore are you such a coward, to summarize in short???

[@ekehernandez]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha - you haven't read A Song of Ice and Fire have you? The only difference is that ASOIAF fans aren't sandy and sour about Tolkien. A modern author taking inspiration from authors that have passed away is not unheard of. I'd recommend reading a little. BTW - as a true fan of GRRM I can tell you: the show is even shittier than your comment.