Archery | What Perfect Form Is (And Isn't)

[@NUSensei]

Food for thought: There is no one correct way to do archery, but to say that there isn't a "perfect" form is a way for people to ignore the fundamentals of form. Where the "anti-perfect" sentiment comes from are people who don't put themselves in a situation that demands perfect form. If perfect form wasn't a thing, Olympic archers would have far more variation in their technique than casual shooters. What it comes down to is whether one's form is "good enough". You can hit a target without perfect form, but the world's best use very similar techniques, which implies that there is an ideal method with only very minor variations.

[@fanisvam2068]

I think no one can be perfect he can be very good but never perfect

[@PXCharon]

Regarding "perfect enough" for certain contexts. The best example I can think of is Manchu archery and the 35" draw. A floating anchor somewhere near the rear shoulder simply can't be as consistent as a fixed anchor anywhere else, but it does the job well enough for hurling long, heavy arrows at fighting distances.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@fanisvam2068 compound archers shoot 600 point indoor, so by the scoring system and the rule of averages lets them be "perfect" if achieving 100% of the available points is the goal. and keep in mind you can make mistakes with a compound . if the theory of muscle memory and technique can not be applied and deemed valid , perhaps the technique is not good enough .

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@PXCharon if a joint has a maximal range of motion and the anchor point is the end of that motion without compressing the bones or cartilage constituting a biological inconsistency in itself , that point will be consistent or even more so as a recurve anchor is prone to overdrawing , where you can rotate or draw about the elbow, different hand tennssion and applied pressure, collapsing and creeping and bending of the wrist . as the manchu release has the hand swing out as the only motion option left if alignment and bow hand pressure are consistent .

[@sky9897]

I have tested this myself regarding anchor point and better alignment. At first I did draw a few centimeters off to the the right side of my jawline, olympic style. The string did not touch my lip but the corner of my mouth and the tip of the nose. I occasionally had trouble with arrows drifting off horizontally. I then changed to a contact point two centiniters to the left on my lip so I made contanct rather towards the middle than the side of my mouth. I almost instantanously lost side drift. There is a reason professional archers draw like this and everyone should stick to the general pricipals of their highly developed technique.

[@bradleyspurrier4138]

In this video NUSensei demonstrates how to pull off a goatee with perfect form

[@narxes]

Digging the beard

[@sebastienraymond3648]

It is above all an ideal-type that serves as a point of reference. Is there a perfect form? Yes. Is a perfect form necessary? There are two "global" answers: 1) Yes, if you want to reach an Olympic caliber. 2) No, as long as you develop a consistent and repetitive form in which you are comfortable and which brings you to consistent results. Nice weekend to all. :-)

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

theres is no perfect form , only the ideal theoretical execution of techniques . from there you must detract or compromise with biomechanics as the body can not achieve the optimal angels due to mass and shape of the body. biology , human muscles are inconsistent in length,mass, strength,temperature and effort (activated motor units )strain and lactic acid . further you have newtonian laws deciding in a nano second what will happen at, during and after release . then there is the king of all laws that can and will interfere, Murphy's law .mental acumen or focus is another debate in itself

[@sebastienraymond3648]

@@mortenjacobsen5673 Hey Hi Morten! It's been a little while since I've seen your comments over here (unless I just didn't see them, sorry). How is the temperature of the weekend in Norway (in Moss if I remember correctly)? I was planning to go do my weekly stumpimg in the forest as usual today, however I have to cut down a tree at my father's home. Anyway, always good to hear from you! Have a nice weekend. :-)

[@sky9897]

Consistently missing the target does not count though ;)

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@sebastienraymond3648 the themp will hover around 8 degrees this coming week , with even drizzles throughout the week , but withs winds u to 9ms it will probably feel like o . remember to wear decent gloves and protect those string fingers

[@sebastienraymond3648]

@@sky9897 i.imgur.com/38BlfVp.png?1

[@MrBigCookieCrumble]

Thanks for this, your videos have been a lot of help in my little adventure into archery.

[@christelleberthon]

Hello NU Sensei as per usual a very interesting video. May be I'm wrong but I haven't found a video made on the breathing (diaphragmatic breathing) and how you breath with your recurve, when you inhale when/if you block, when you exhale....That would be cool

[@keziahchabin5312]

You don't need to think about breathing. Just think about your follow-through and let the release happen during your expansion. Watch kimwoojin to understand more. And if you block your breathing, you will get tense wich is not of any help when you use a clicker

[@h0tkoko]

The perfect form is one that is having the fundamentals correct and being repeatable consciously for consistency. This includes safety of others and the archer themselves not sustaining injuries. Hence this school of taught can be applied to all forms of archery from traditional horse bows, asiatic bows, long bows, cross bows, bare bows, target recurve bows and compound bows.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

A big issue is the use of the word form , its to general and why I say "form is used to bake cake " Martial arts from or kata is a pattern of techniques. your shot should be a sequence of techniques executed in a pattern or tempo(rhythm) . saying something is good or bad form is to general and often dont consider idosyncrosisancyies or have the weight of an instructors knowledge behind it . we should all stop using form , styles even and rather discuss technique elements.

[@peternguyen1911]

I would argue Ki Bo Bae is perfect. Were we talking about archery?

[@oudski]

Peter Nguyen Exactly!! Not only do the Korean women shoot lights out, but they look terrific doing it. They all use the exact same technique, aka “perfect form”. While most Olympic women’s archery squads are dressed like summer camp councilors, the Koreans wear the elegant white and navy outfits that look like they came out of the Gucci studio. They all wear the same snow white bucket style hat that wouldn’t look out of place on Her Majesty’s royal head. And they all have the same flawless porcelain complexion, save for the bow string cleft chin. They shoot like zen masters and dress like Bond villains. They are the crown jewel of the archery world.

[@kmarchery]

@@oudski Lol "bond villians" I cheer for chang on the womens side . Her shanghai performance had me jumping out of my chair .

[@sky9897]

Hey, Brady Ellisons fat Belly is also worth a look. Makes his American flag shirt almost 3D! Screw those korean clone outfits.

[@oudski]

Yes, SkyB. Brady’s look is distinctly “American Bowhunter”. Very cosmopolitan!

[@johnmason455]

@@kmarchery I second the cheer for Chang Hye Jin, absolute consistancy in shot cycle. And, watch her eyes when she shoots, that lady doesn't blink. Little lady drawing a big bow and making it look easy, if only it was so easy. Brady himself admits to inconsistancy in his shot cycle, but says he has learned to work with it. Must have driven coach Lee nuts. On the other hand you can't argue with his results.

[@paulkim6866]

How come there is no Ki Bo Bae? I came to see her.

[@KILLKING110]

I use the standard archery stance but a bit more open since im a hunter and I want to minimize the chances of string slap

[@BillHalliwell]

G'day David, I have been watching Olympic tournaments on KZbin and one thing I've noticed is that very few competitors crack a smile. The Koreans, never smile, laugh or change their facial expression. I can only surmise that they are not having any type of fun. For me, I just don't see the point of that. I'm still a new comer to recurve target shooting and I'm really enjoying it. For me it's a thrill just to get a good grouping inside or close to 'the yellow'. I have an excellent instructor who gives me one-on-one lessons. Having been trained in firearms, it struck me the other day that if you compare the forward and back sights on a rifle to the anchor point and the sight/bow string placement they have, basically, the same functions. Now if rifle fire had a forward and rear sight that kept 'moving', firing a rifle would be much more difficult. I totally understand the importance of consistency of the shot process in archery and, of course, my instructor is right in reinforcing these principals as I learn. I took on archery because I wanted (needed) a low physical impact sport and because I've always wanted to give it a go. I will never shoot Olympic style as I'm not interested in competition, apart from friendly 'social' shooting with other club members. I am still going to drill myself relentlessly in the fine detail of the shot process until it approaches second nature, but my main goal is just enjoyment. Every sport I've stuck with over my lifetime has given me a sense of pleasure and satisfaction; if not, I've dropped it. I enjoy the variability of archery. These days rifle shooters can put their firearms into a 'vice' like jigs, or pack them in sand bags on a sit down bench then just pull the trigger. That's not sport to me that's a mechanical process that could, and has, been duplicated by automatic fire systems on aircraft and modern armoured vehicles. Finally, (at last you say) are our Korean friends and others like them really doing a sport or are they trying to emulate an 'automatic shooting system'? What ever it is they are doing, it doesn’t seem to give them a buzz at all. Cheers, BH

[@NUSensei]

It's easy to make judgements on professional archers when you're only doing it as a hobby. "Fun" isn't what they do archery for. There's enjoyment in competition, but they're focused on the goal.

[@BillHalliwell]

@@NUSensei David, I didn't mean to say anything hurtful about professional competition archers. I was just offering the thought they didn't APPEAR to be having fun. I did NOT mean it as any kind of 'judgement'. No, it's not 'easy' for me to make comments like that because, as you see here, I run the risk of being misunderstood. I truly appreciate your videos and will continue to watch but I think I'll bow out of commenting because I'm only indulging in a 'hobby'. Cheers, BH

[@stoutlager6325]

Yeah that's more of a high level competition thing than it is about any sport in particular. You're there for serious business and, despite the Olympics being an amateur competition by definition, there is big sponsorship money, program funding, and national pride at stake.

[@ArcheryAdventures]

Hey! get your own video topics! 😂 Some great points as always buddy, as we’ve discussed before, different sides of the same coin. But I still maintain "perfection" is still an incredibly personal and subjective thing. But you are right, some of the top flight target archers (especially those Koreans) are the closest thing to mechanical perfection as you can get in Archery. Target archery is a different animal I guess. (I haven’t shot Olympic recurve in about 20 years ) Although I did spend some time with some Kyudo archers A couple years back, man those guys were something else!!! Take care buddy 😘

[@jybgbayambang6749]

If you don't have basis of a perfect form, How do you teach the correct form then?

[@stevearce1498]

Great Wisdom! 🏹 🎯

[@sreejiths6297]

I'm rising my shoulder while drawing the bow. How to fix this problem

[@johnminnitt8101]

Thank you, interesting as usual. May I disagree with one thing - that traditional archery need not bother with accuracy at longer distances (like Olympic 70m or more) - there is still wooden longbow target shooting in the UK, York round up to 100 yards remember. There may not be a single perfect form, but I think that there are 'perfect' basics of form, that are found in most forms of archery (including the longbows above, and hunting/field styles) - things like alignment, shoulder position, the line from rear elbow to arrow, the release in that line - and, with that, good old back tension and expansion.

[@wanr5701]

In my opinion; most, if not all, archers shoot with the same basic fundamentals; it is all those small, advanced details that separate each one of them and define each respective unique "perfect" form.

[@mikhaelstibino]

I've got a question: I shoot with some friends at the local club. I started with recurve, so I went compound, and after much training together, I tried recurve again with them, and I was much more proficient in comparison to them. Could it be because the let-off allowed me the time necessary to wait before loosing, giving me better possibility to check and adjust my form at every shot thus helping to learn? At maximum extension I've got 8 pounds to keep, they have at least 28.

[@mikhaelstibino]

Same about aiming devices, sights: I put my head and eyes everyshot the same place with compound, when I use the recurve I naturally do the same movement because of that. Could it be the compound helped me to build consistency?

[@NUSensei]

Unlikely. It's normally the other way around - recurves transition to compound much easier. I think your previous experience with recurve, along with your ongoing experience with compound, has simply given you more confidence with your form. It is not an inherent advantage of using compound.

[@punjasandtyger4090]

Is this a response video to grizzly Jim? Also I thought there was a goat behind you watching from the window lol

[@demoncard1180]

Humans are imperfect, and can't produce perfect motion. Perfect form is therefore an abstraction better suited to machinery than people. And indeed, owing to its design a crossbow places far less demands on its user and delegates at least some maxims an archer would follow to the machine. So, you can reduce techniques that would benefit an archer to maxims - and that's what we do as instructors, with things like "Don't shoot sideways from the hip with your eyes closed with your longbow if you want to hit something other than the floor, the wall or the cieling", but as with hema, it depends on what you're trying to do, and you as a person whether you get results from such statements of advice. Indeed, the comments section is filling up with descriptions of good practice that we already knew, and historically people have known. Olympic archers are in the same event, doing the same things. Agincourt happened before the modern olympics, or so I hear. Was perfect form being demanded of them, in a life or death situation? You'll find that the perfect there, is very different from being told you'll shoot at the same distance targets you've been boringly practicing for months on That definition of perfect, lends itself to firing off more arrows in a space of time to avoid being stabbed to death by Frenchmen who there are enough of to not worry much about aiming at an individual.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

humans can otherwise there would be no brain surgeons, the problem with archery is that it requires two set of interchanging work loads in the muscles while switching from a cognitive function to a subconscious. maintaining an isometric strong and static bow arm while contracting back muscles while switching to subconscious to execute on memory alone is jut not compatible for our brains , it requires the generation of new neuron pathways and the transmission speed to be increased and a complex shoot cycle switching from gross and fine motor skill and performing both at the same or overlapping time is demanding . and the brain learns larger motion a lot faster to then then dump them into stacks of muscle memory

[@demoncard1180]

Good try. Brain surgeons are human and are known to make mistakes.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@demoncard1180 that's why when they cut they focus and don't rub their tummy at the same time or coordinate their toes

[@demoncard1180]

Surgeons are *not* infallible, and that's why they have you sign informed consent forms after making sure you're aware of the consequences of the surgery not going to plan. They practice meticulously so they don't make mistakes, but mistakes and accidents happen on occasion anyway, and thus surgeons can't be generalised as "perfect". If you can rub your tummy and coordinate your toes, I'm very proud of you, now go bother someone else to practice your written English, sheesh.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@demoncard1180 as I have stated before murphy laws,

[@gizmonomono]

Perfect form would have as a consiqunce proper back tention and a clean release. Regardless of style.

[@jamesjohnson7905]

Surely the bow dictates the form . Once you have the fundamentals .

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

If Olympic style archery is the closest to optimal and considered the best set of techniques ? why have not all archers adopted it ? excluding nostalgia and traditional reason of course like Kyodo , but archery with a goal to hit the mark consistently boils down to a few set of equations.Do we blame the equipment as form follows function an design ? do we as archers compromise our techniques to fit the limitation of design making due with what we have , and what percentage of human error overrides the ability to achieve perfection ?

[@sky9897]

Because not everyone wants to use sight and stabilizers. Also, barebow archery with string walking allows for a more flexible style shooting at unknown distances. An anchor point below the jaw line woule not allow to aim using the tip of the arrow for being too low out of your sight. And, well, traditional intuitive is just for fun at a non competitive level as any archer doing systematic techniques will outperform any intuitive style. Try an olympic anchor on your barebow and you will get in trouble very quickly without a sight fot not being able to properly aim vs. stringwalking or intuitive. The arrow is just way too low in your field of view to make use of it as an aiming device

[@feralgrandad4429]

Because have you ever tryed to shoot like that wit a hunting bow, in the woods, while kneeling and bent over, under a tree branch? Olympic Archery is the pinicle of target archery. Not all applications of the form.

[@sjankarcher]

No it's not about the equipment. You can adapt olympic style to most of other forms of archery. Changing anchor point to suit aiming using the tip of the arrow is just a detail. Olympic style archers have to develop routines that they use for every - single - shot. That is their main advantage. Shooting and training in an organised way. Being under a supersivion of a coach. Of course the formula of shooting only specified distances helps with that but I believe that every archer would benefit from shooting like olympians. Also olympic archers train not only their form but their mind. Being calm and self-possessed, even in the face of potential defeat is a great advantage. Even if you're nervous you are not allowed to show it( well you can but it's a mistake most of the time and gives your opponents more confidence because they see you about tip over) . Sometimes it's like playing poker. There is a great deal of psychology during archery matches. So... answering your question. Probably not many archers does it because it's a hassle and needs constant reminders. Mistakes creeps in all the time. Also it's difficult to see the results immediately and most people are impatient. I can watch barebow shooters and distinguish those who shot olympic style before. And truly, training like that is a pain in the ass but I think it's worth it if you want to hit the gold every time.

[@demoncard1180]

I absolutely agree that olympic style archery isn't perfect, Morten. I made mention of crossbows mechanising what would have been required of the archer in years of training in another comment, and that led me down the following line of reasoning. I'm sure, with the best technology we have now, you could make a very, very good mechanical archer capable of shooting many times a second with extreme accuracy and precision. A better one could be made ten years later with better tech. Humans biologically simple can't hope to match even that, and olympic archers probably don't come close, practising for the same stagnant event. Might as well give Lars a medal for his five pound trickshooting video, because those were all clearly edited to be perfect takes. I'm also sure he'd say he had the perfect form for his silly stunts. I like your description of techniques, too. Form is really too encompassing and vague.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@sky9897 they are there to aid and compensate, aiming is a misconception , a manipulation of launch coordinates

[@MagnusWendt]

I disagree to a certain point. There *is* a perfect form for any specific set of variables (body shape, bow, sighting method etc) but all of these variables are not static. Since olympic style archers can adjust their setup, they can position the sight so that the archer can hold a biomechanically efficient form while still having optimal accuracy. For them a "perfect" form is more well defined and I can agree with you more, but there is still the risk that they may adopt someone else's "perfect form", which might not suit their body shape. For "trad archers" like myself all the compromises that need to be made for any given form become more apparent. The strongest body position would be if bow hand, both shoulders and elbows and draw hand all line up in a straight line. This is obviously impossible. Your limbs would have to fold over them selfs and the arrow would have to pass through your body. So we need to start compromising. The stronges obtainable posture would be draw hand held at shoulder level and close to the chest, so you draw well past you eyes. The arrow is far from your eyes so aiming is difficult. To improve accuracy with minimal effect on biomechanical efficiency you can translate (move) both hands upwards until you can anchor on your face. This is how I have shot for a while now. Posture and bow completely upright, anchoring split finger on the rear part of the cheek bone. This is a strong position and I can shoot higher draw weight for longer time without fatiguing even if I draw the bow longer than my "gapping form". With this form I have a very consistent posture. Everything is vertical and since I anchor to the side of my face and not in front of (or somewhere in between) there is nothing to interfere with my draw hand which gives me much cleaner releases. Arrow, draw hand and draw elbow form a perfectly straight line. The compromise is that bow and arrow are so far away from my view of the target that they are mostly useless as a visual reference for aiming. I am forced to shoot completely instinctively and aim by aligning my view of the target with how my posture feels. Recently I have been interested in getting my scores up and therefor switched to a form more conductive to gap shooting. I have switched to a three under draw, moved my anchor point forward to below the eye and leaned my head in to bring the eye over the arrow. To keep the same angle between my string and face I also cant my bow the same angle. The shorter draw means my elbow moves further away from an ideal line, causing a higher moment arm acting on my shoulder and I need more muscle force to hold my anchor. I fatigue faster and actually feel my shoulder after a session. To bring the hand onto the face for anchoring I actually need to break the perfect line my arrow, hand and elbow made. My form is now full of compromises compared to a biomechanically optimal form, but I shoot more consistent scores because I can now actively aim. I would say that the skill to aim instinctively has shorter "shelf life" than form so which of these two forms is "most perfect" depends on training frequency. The set of variables that decide what is perfect form for you may be different from person to person and depend on your goals and you strengths and weaknesses. But if you know what those variables are, then yes, there is a "perfect" form you should be trying to achieve.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

then why is one universal technique set thought *? why not 3 for the most common body shapes ? if there where a perfect form records will be contested daily but its rare for a record to be set . ergo the equipment is at fault or the technique or maybe both . maybe archery is just a random physics calculator played with by humans

[@MagnusWendt]

@@mortenjacobsen5673 I don´t know if you read my full post or just the first line that you see without expanding the post because I argue that there isn´t really a perfect form.. but either way I don't see why people would be setting records left and right even if there was a perfect form. You can have perfect form and still be a terrible shot. Perfect form just make it easier to be a good shot.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@MagnusWendt no the rule of averages dictates that an average shooter shoots average score but an improving archer increases his hit percentage and therefore be staticial due to get a new pb if all the best archer had perfect form over a longer period of consistency they would shoot higher scores so on average more records will be set until the skill level or competition parameters are like compound and only external factors like wind decided the outcome shot offs would come down to a mm rather than cm .

[@MagnusWendt]

@@mortenjacobsen5673 We are discussing whether there is a single perfect form to strive for, not necessarily obtain. But even if there was a perfect form that could be obtained there still wouldn't be new records set all the time. The existing records would just be higher.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@MagnusWendt form is used to bake cake if your techniq cant set a new record or beat the existing one maybe its not good enough or don't fit the parameters the question is if the synergi is good enough to achieve the perfect score

[@oudski]

I’d say perfect form is relative. What an Olympian would consider “perfect” form would meet with strong disagreement from a practitioner of Kyudo in Japan. Or a Comanche warrior in southwest USA. They all have differing forms of “perfection”. Even Olympic form seems to differ a lot! Not in obvious ways but in the minute details. You can easily spot a Korean archer. The way they draw the bow string back to their face, lock it down, then lift it up. They all do it the exact same way. Some of the female archers have a permanent bow string mark on their chin from this technique. (It also gives them that adorable little snarly face they make while they sight their shot. Yes, I’m obsessed with the Korean women’s archery team! If they made action figures of them, I’d collect them all!) Btw, perfection doesn’t exist. It’s an illusion. We strive for it but no one ever achieves it. But it’s nice to dream about.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

A kyodo practitioner want to hit the target but with mind body and soul . an olympian want to hit the target with an arrow in x 72 times but 10 points are still work the same in x or the ring but one has maybe 6 possibilities of that happening compared to the 60 depends on your ambition

[@jimmybamber4378]

I've just watched the world recurve the 2 Korean lads look pretty perfect to me. . The beard is cool nu

[@firesalamander4795]

Real archery Hideo Kojima

[@kmarchery]

Scholars cradle alert . Lindy would be so proud .

[@robezy0]

You're one of 2 people: there are the ones who have seen Jim's video and the ones who haven't

[@feralgrandad4429]

Really nice concise explanation. But then you're an Olympic style archer and a school teacher. Sort of Geek squared I reckon mate. Ha ha. While I feel there no Perfect form in "Instinctive" archery. I totally agree that within target sports there's an argument it exists. I mean target rifle and handgun shoots strive for it so a why not a target bow shooter?

[@lubossoltes321]

NUSensei, you are again making the mistake of taking Olympic freestyle recurve as the highest form of archery. Given the constraints of that type or discupline of archery you arrive at some kind of form that is used as a baseline. Changing the rules, a different form will replace the current used one. So no, in general archery, there is no perfect form. In specific archery disciplines, there is what could be regarded as perfect form.

[@NUSensei]

The thing is, Olympic freestyle offers the most consistent results. Form and technique among the world's best converge on the singular purpose of placing arrows as consistently as possible. From an objective point of view, the style in which the least variation resulting in the most consistent shot placement is, by definition, close to perfection. An archer with a strong foundation in Olympic-style archery should be able to transition to other styles with more ease and fluidity than the other way around. Far more has been done to understand the science of modern archery form. The mistake is in denying that modern archery is an advancement made possible due to the removal of practical limitations. Whether "perfection" is "practical" is a whole different thing.

[@lubossoltes321]

@@NUSensei no, that would be Compound bow disciplines ... wonder why that is not an Olympic sport .... however there form does not matter that much since that bow was engineered to get the human out of the result as much as possible ....

[@sarinhighwind]

Perfect form is person to person. The fundamentals and consistency of a form that works for you to perform the task at a very high level repeatedly with little to no error.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

www.google.no/search?q=hoyt+memes&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=-fWst1tPMok9hM%253A%252CF2TbxaMZZp8IJM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kRtYbSOVkOnXDjyIKMnvQ3cdTsU_Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitt6C6gLveAhVM1ywKHeu-Df0Q9QEwAHoECAYQBA#imgrc=-fWst1tPMok9hM:

[@sarinhighwind]

uhh, spam?

[@regaeontop]

I like how you explained that your ethnic background plays a roll in your strengths and weaknesses. I couldn't agree more and I think it's healthy to accept it. In America, your racist for thinking this way!

[@techorsegg]

who else paused the video to check for birds outside

[@battleborn2002]

A complete waste of time. SHOW US not TELL US.