Recurve Archers - studying the affect of alignment errors

[@Windsong2001]

Informative video but incomplete without examples of correct form release.

[@dracik1973]

Excellent video! Each time watching it, always found something else important that was overlooked from previous watching.

[@doBobro]

Great info, thank you. I'm beginner and miss detailed motion analytics from my local instructors so much.

[@electoplater]

dont think to much and remember some days you will shoot great other days you cant hit a barn door like the worlds top archers thats my advice

[@Twm532]

A lot people don't even realise that alignment determines the motion of your hand and arm after release. People are taught that your hand is supposed to come back behind your ear so thats what they do without understanding why and how

[@glenblock3924]

Would of been better to have shown someone with a proper shot form

[@jorgericardoavenadacruz5571]

Brasília/D.F./Brazil Oh my God! Jesus!

[@yegonsk]

what alignment error causes the pluck? elbow too far back?

[@ArcheryWinchester]

The pluck is caused by a multitude of different things. Some are attributable to alignment - in conjunction with some other factor. I see a lot of plucks coming from too much holding with the index finger at anchor. This usually comes with a high elbow alignment. But this alignment error is because of the problem that will cause the pluck, and is not the cause itself. The pluck comes from using the tricepts to pull the hand away. This can come with almost any alignment. Without looking at the individual case it is hard to say

[@ngondeg]

How much of an elbow drop is permissible? To some extent it must be, right? In that context would U find KBB's form flawed? kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6CTmGl8hrWbqtU I'm almost afraid to ask.. :)

[@ArcheryWinchester]

If you watch Ki Bo Bae's draw hand, it comes straight back, indicating that she is in perfect tension. The movement of her elbow, down a little, is only the natural movement of the arm as it comes back. So, I don't see a flaw there. However, the job of a coach is to keep an athlete performing at the peak level. A coach must watch everything and see that insignificant issues do not drift into flaws. I always look at even the best archers to see if there is something that might develop into a problem, and consider how to keep it in check. I can assure you that KBB's coach is watching her actions, and keeping her on track. Even the best athletes in the world, in every sport, need a nudge, now and then, from their coach. If KBB's coach saw the elbow being pulled down, as part of the release, the coach would bring it to her attention and they would correct it. That is the nature of sports. The athlete's job is to perform as well as possible, and the coach's job is to keep them on track and centered. Some people challenge me for critiquing many of the top archers, but that is the nature of high level coaching - keeping the athlete on track. This is a long way to go about saying, I think her actions in the video you referenced, as well as almost every other video I have ever watched of her shooting, are fine. ---- but, if I was her coach I would still watch everything like a hawk, to ensure that they stay fine.

[@ngondeg]

Thank you for replying. To be clear I have no issue with you having a "no sacrum" attitude. I just (with my unexperienced eye) could not see a very big difference between KBB's elbow drop and the lady in blue from your vid. So, thanks again :)

[@ArcheryWinchester]

Let's get more technical. For most archers, from the point of release, the arrow is completely gone from the bow in less than 2/100 (.02) of a second, and the total active portion of the release is less than 1/10 (0.1) seconds. In the KBB video, the arrow passes the riser in 6 frames (I have this video on my PC and can play with these things). Her elbow begins its downward motion after 15 frames. That's 2.5 times as long as it took the arrow to leave the bow. This indicates that the actions driving KBB's hand, arm and elbow, at the point of release, are all toward pulling that hand back. This is clear in the video. The elbow only begins to come down , after 15 frames, as part of the natural motion. This natural motion occurs when the scapular motion is complete and the shoulder socket pivots to allow the hand to continue it's path back. This is what causes the elbow to drop, long after the arrow is gone. In the lady in blue, in my video, the elbow starts pivoting down with the first frame. The elbow drop, therefor, is part of her release. The difference is visibly subtle but its affect on the string and arrow nock at the point of release, is significant. As you can see, we archery nerds are very nerdy. :)

[@ngondeg]

Cool. It seems to be good idea to invest in a smartphone with 120-240 fps recording option, record oneself and analyse :)

[@ArcheryWinchester]

Yes, it's a very good idea. I use an ipad at my range. In either case, you can go to a music store and buy a microphone stand and they sell Clamps to hold a cell phone or an ipad in place that attach to the mic stand. While you're at it, now that you have all the equipment, download a video delay ap. It will film everything and play if 5-10 seconds behind. If you set it at 5 seconds, it is perfect to shoot and then, turn your head, and watch what you did. These modern gizmos are great --- as lont as you don't get carried away with the toys. :)

[@pierremayer1207]

" This guy has alignment errors, he is a former olympic champion.........."

[@ArcheryWinchester]

Many of the top archers have flaws. I'm not saying that you have to do things perfectly, I'm saying that i'm saying there is always room to improve. That's what makes archery so great. What makes a certain form ":Right" is thealignment that creates the least stress on the joints, etc. (remember, we are in a high repetitive stress sport) amd the ease of consistent repeatability. Many people learn to do "trick" shots with all sorts of odd techniques. Think how much better they would be with the same amount of work and a proper/easily repeatable form.

[@esnevip]

@@ArcheryWinchester helps me to not feel so bad about my form, but just as focused on improving it. Knowing even at the top level there are mistakes

[@BogdanGwardiak]

It is only wasting time watching this video. I can not imagine archer wants to learn how to release incorrectly.

[@stevehunt4660]

It seems as if the perfect release and follow through is a myth..... could you not find one example of a good release.

[@GG1097]

Good info, but using archers who have won Olympic gold and been on Olympic and National teams as examples of bad form makes it hard to relate your point. So I shouldn't make all these "Mistakes" you point out why? Seems like some of the world's best have gotten there warts and all. There is no form or alignment that will take place of dedicated practice. I'll take Jay Barrs' bad alignment and poor shot execution over "Good" alignment any day if it's consistent. Here's the truth kids: Don't force yourself into any position that doesn't feel comfortable. If your stressing muscles and structure to obtain some degree of nirvana in form, good luck repeating it. Shoot comfortably and shoot A LOT. Of course, you should strive to be in alignment, but don't sweat it. Jay won Olympic Gold in 1988 by shooting roughly a FITA round a day for a year or more. Comfort is repeatable and more reliably consistent than a forced form.

[@ArcheryWinchester]

Good form is determined by what is easiest for the archer to do repeatedly in the exact manner. While some top archers have used bad technique to execute well, they accomplished this through hard work. If the technique had been better, they would have either required less work, or gotten even better. As a coach, I cannot just say to archers. "Do whatever feels good and just practice harder". It is my job to know what will get the most archers to the best result. However, a coach should also know the tradeoffs and prices that must be paid for deviations. On some occasions, a particular archer may need to modify the theoretically perfect form. A coach needs to know the tradeoffs, and how to accomplish that in the best and safest manner too. Only through studying all archers, including elite archers,, and analyzing their form, can a coach truly understand the range of variations that will work.

[@toxy1948]

Who cares how and where their hands end up if the arrows are in the ten ring?You did not say where?

[@ArcheryWinchester]

Nobody gets it in the 10 ring every time. The more variable the technique, the less consistent the shots. The goal of any archer should be to set himself up for the most simple and repeatable shot. When an archers hand is bouncing all around, there's just too much room for variables to creep in, and ruin the shot.

[@Waltham1892]

No one likes a snitch...

[@nathansmith5331]

I bet all these shooters are top both so who cares where their hands are.

[@ArcheryWinchester]

Actually, they are not all top archers. Also, while an individual archer may learn to do an unusual action consistently, and attain a good score, this does not mean that all archers should shoot that way. I once saw a woman stand on her hands and shoot the bow with her feet. She got a 10, but it would be ridiculous to teach this as a technique. It is the coach's job to understand the principles that will serve the most archers the best and then to teach that method so that the student is progressing solidly rather than just going willy nilly.