Archetype Archive - The Bully

Archetype definitions are pretty important for fighting games and there's a subtype of character that I feel doesn't really get a proper role in the discussion. Here I want to discuss characters who's primary goal is to be insanely disruptive and a huge threat onscreen - The Bully. An archetype that is of my own creation, but I think it very well covers some characters that either never really get assigned an archetype, or dont really fit in the archetype they are often prescribed. For those who disagree with my definition - feel free to voice why! This is a fairly nebulous and brand new concept I'd like to define and see more recognition of, since I think strong definitions help people know what to expect when they play against these characters, and start to form their own gameplans whether its while playing as or against them.
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[@Psyren136]

I compiled a list of Bully characters from the comments and video. I tried to only include ones i seen Daruma agreeing with so that the list can stay true to the video intent. Bully Characters: zBroly (DBFZ) Sagat (SF) Negan (T7) Jason (MKX) Shao Kahn (MK) Yamazaki (KOF) Clark (KOF) Luong (KOF) Goldlewis (GG) Tusk (KI) Incineroar (smash) Ganondorf (smash) Bedman (GG) Marissa (SF) Leo (GG) Urien (SF) Kotal (MK) Kano (MK) Azrael (BB) Vaseraga (GBVS) Cooler (DBFZ) King K Rool (smash) Enkidu (UNI) Bryan (Tekken) Tremor (MKX) Honda (SF) Armor King (T7) Joker (MK11) Dragunov (T7)

[@DarumaFGC]

Yo thank you for the kind work! Very diligent of you and the series labeling is much appreciated too. I can only hope it was fun and of interest of you to do the investigation it must have took to compile this list!

[@Psyren136]

@@DarumaFGC No problem bro. Yeah i love digging into stuff like this. I'll try to get it done for the other videos as well when i have a chance. Hopefully make it a little easier on you.

[@_Kroaken_]

Awesome list!

[@Psyren136]

@@DarumaFGC Who would you say fits the Bully archetype the best from MBTL? I was thinking Roa maybe but i'm not 100% sure.

[@DarumaFGC]

@@Psyren136 Probably Noel, high active frames & covers funny angles specifically to catch your opponent doing stuff, that's furthered a lot by how important charged black keys are for her and you specifically want to bait your opponent into pressing so you can actually use that tool against them to extend into damage off whiff punishes.

[@billyboleson2830]

I think the widely accepted name for this is the “brawler” or “bruiser” but bully works too or as I like to call them “when a Rushdown and a grappler perform fusion”

[@DarumaFGC]

I think the brawler is a separate archetype because as you said, it's when a Rushdown and grappler form a fusion. Sol, Nago, Susano'o etc all don't play keepaway, their moves zoom them into close range so they play a pretty terrifying strike throw game. Whereas these characters are big chilling well out of throw range for most of the game.

[@greenshark45]

@@DarumaFGCgogeta blue

[@DarumaFGC]

@@greenshark45 covering the fusions in tomorrow's video 👍

[@erk9448]

Sooo does alex in sf3 count?

[@Bigparr43]

As I commented, I feel like the term Heavy Rushdown is a better fit

[@CrashDAMFCourse]

Broly has earned the name "Z Bully" over time in DBFZ and seeing this title with Broly on it made me laugh alot.

[@DarumaFGC]

I think it's fitting! As I said in the video, I'm pretty tired of hearing "the grappler is the best zoner" - clearly he plays extremely differently to 16 and S Broly, so I wanted to find somewhere he belonged

[@shinjihirako6464]

@@DarumaFGC still kinda funny how Z broly is still considered the best zoner as well

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

@@DarumaFGC To be fair, he has arguably one of best command grabs in the game, which is usually a core trait of a grappler.

[@clarencegutsy7309]

My favorite archetype is The Criminal. It's a character that at one point had a specific game or an era of games where they were insanely strong and now must pay for their crimes by being extremely lackluster and never going beyond mediocre. An example is Vega from SF.

[@DarumaFGC]

So many characters that could carry us all to free wins, gone but not forgotten

[@ILiekFishes]

poor poor kirby

[@redmanrode8349]

Accel pot

[@DrunkDudley]

Ahhh that would be 3rd Strike Sean that got nerfed to the ground after being to strong in 2nd Impact xD

[@Evilbadguy-d3g]

Thats not really an archetype

[@Twisted_Logic]

Finally, a name for my favorite playstyle. My friends think of me as a grappler/zoner player, but I've never really identified with either one. Like, command grabs and projectiles are cool and all, but what really activates my almonds is shutting down my opponent's options as I push in, especially with armor

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad you thought the name resonated well with you! Some people really hate this idea, for some reason, but ive gotten a lot of people who play these characters who think its spot-on

[@HarryBergerVEVO]

Gordeau from Under-Night fits the bill. Strong whiff punish specials, infamous 9F "grim reaper" slash that reaches halfscreen, and strong pressure while having a command grab. His unique trait also allows him to steal GRD (resource in game) furthering his annoyance. Lots of dirty moves like standing low, a gut punch, slide, and overhead headknock. Sometimes you got to be a real jerk to play him well and I love it!

[@DarumaFGC]

I would classify him a little more as a midranger, but ive had multiple people labelling Gordeau for bully. I could swing either way on it, but per my defintion, I dont really think Gordeau only wants to play interruptive and keepaway and uses things like his slide, mortal slide and grim reaper to approach and keep pressure going close range. But he definitely does have really long lasting active hitboxes with low recovery that are really hard to punish, so I think you both can play him as a bully or a midranger, its just up to you which label you'd use or what kind of playstyle you veer towards.

[@ragna3023]

Uniclr's prime bully would be Carmine in my opinion.

[@auradood]

I think if UNICLR was to have a shining example of a bully character, it'd have to be Enkidu. His 4C is one of the best stop signs in the game, and his other normals like 5B and 5C are great for punishing people trying to take their turn in that same midrange area that Sagat likes to control. His character trait Havoc even gets him higher reward for stuffing and whiff punishing people trying to challenge him. I think most people would assume Enkidu's a brawler, and he definitely has that sort stickiness in his pressure, but I think that much more of his kit leans towards forcing his opponents into being passive. He also has a large number of risky but specific callout tools that he uses in pressure and in neutral that put him in danger if you sit still. 66B crushing lows, 3[C] being projectile invincible, and his parry having so much end lag are great examples.

[@DarumaFGC]

@@auradood great comment man. I think you're right that he's somewhere in the bully-brawler area. He does have the advancing attacks but you're right that he fishes for counterhits and a lot of his kit is designed specifically to facilitate that.

[@Gilthwixt1]

The YT algorithm delivers! I've lamented for years that the FGC doesn't have universally agreed on definitions for archetypes so it's nice to find a content creator putting out videos on the subject. My dream project is a community curated "Taxonomy" wiki that lists nearly every FGC character properly sorted according to moveset, playstyle, lineage and theme. Looking forward to more videos like this.

[@DarumaFGC]

It's something I've had on my mind for years, people call characters things they don't really fit and just leave it like that, it rubs me the wrong way. Hoping to shed some light on this and maybe even throw out some ideas that get wider adoption.

[@Gilthwixt1]

​@@DarumaFGCIt's always rubbed me the wrong way too. Ky is often called "The Shoto" of Guilty Gear but then if that's allowed why is Sagat excluded simply because he doesn't actually practice the art in-universe? I'm gonna drop some of my thoughts below if you're interested, idk if any of it is useful but something might be worth approaching in a future video. Sajam once did a good video on how applicable the competitive trading card community's archetypes apply to the FGC - Aggro and Control are just their version of Rushdown and Zoner, and both communities use Midrange to describe someone who can do either depending on the matchup. I started with that as a framework, but something that's bothered me is that a character's moveset doesn't necessarily describe what they want to do with it. Ryu, Ken, and Akuma all have "The Shoto" moveset but Ken is mostly Rushdown and Ryu prefers Zoning. And just looking at all the grapplers in SFV and SF6 it's clear that despite them all being "Grapplers" that word alone doesn't tell you enough about them. So that's why I mentioned an FGC taxonomy, for lack of a better word. You would start with the general moveset, including input type if applicable, then the optimal distance they want to play at, of which you could have a subset of playstyles, then flavor/theme at the end, with a lineage if they have one. Sidenote: We really need a more universal/less controversial term for a moveset consisting of Fireball, Rising Anti-Air, Advancing Strike, and I'm going with All-Rounder for now. As examples, you could have: -Ryu: All-Rounder, Motion Inputs, Midrange, Shoto (Lineage Progenitor) -Guile: All-Rounder, Charge Inputs, Zoner -Kimberly: Teleport Setups, Rushdown, Ninja (Bushinryu Lineage) I've got a few issues with this system so far - Hybrid characters, Speed =/= Range, and characters that change archetype depending on the game. Laura is an "All-Rounder" but also a Grappler, which is pretty rare. What other Grapplers have fireballs? To categorize everyone down to minute details you'd have to allow for multiple tags which could get messy, but it's the only way to distinguish sub-archetypes. Rushdown is our go-to catchall for someone who wants to be in your face and mix, but it implies speed which isn't always the case for people who want to be close. Gief isn't Rushdown (outside of Drive Rush) but he wants to be up close, and yet if you separate Rushdown and Grappler what do you do with characters like Lily, and R. Mika who ARE fast and can rushdown with strike combos outside of their grapple game? What do we do with El Fuerte, who is super fast but can run away as much as he runs in? We might have to separate Speed and Optimal Range. Then we have Chun Li, who's movelist and archetype change from game to game. Traditionally someone who can turtle & play footsies but is also Rushdown in games like MvC3. I don't even know where to start with her in SF6, since she now has upkicks again which would technically make her fit the all-rounder definition, but also has a stance now. A Taxonomy Wiki might have to separate character pages by game which can get bloated. And with a lot of people getting new gimmicks in SF6, gimmick might have to be its own attribute, like Blanka having doll setups on top of the standard Charge-Punish (actually what even is the consensus archetype for Blanka/Honda/Balrog/Bison? I see people just say "Charge Character" which is so generic and doesn't apply to Guile or Chun). Anyway sorry if that was a massive wall of text, but you can kind of see what I'm getting at with various ideas on how classification could function and where they'd still need work. The idea is that if you could build such a classification system up and make it airtight, you could easily search for similar characters across all games, or even find combinations of attributes that don't exist yet to come up with novel, unique playstyles. Wacky stuff like a Grappler that can actually Zone (something along the lines of JP's unblockable projectiles or a Dhalsim with a stretchy command grab, kinda like MvC2 Anakaris). Hope something there was useful.

[@DarumaFGC]

@@Gilthwixt1 I think multi-tagging is the system you most want to avoid with archetypes. At absolute most you'd maybe say "they're a hybrid puppet-rushdown character" or something, once you get past two tags you're in no man's land. And normally there's a sufficient way to group at least two characters from seperate games into the same playstyle. So generally you can come up with a tag. I think all-rounder is very bad as a tag because as you said, it lumps Ryu and Guile together. Ideally, you want to use all-rounder, as a description for what another archetype does. All charge characters and all shotos are all rounders, but not all all-rounders are shotos or charge characters, which already play very different. I want to keep the word shoto, but I want it to include the tag honesty. I think shoto is and should be, the only tag that inherently implies honesty. And by what I mean by honesty in this context I explicitly mean "a move has one clear outcome, and one clear purpose" tatsu, dp and hadouken are all not mix ups, none of their properties are confusing, and they all have one very clear use in neutral. Dp is invulnerability, hadouken is far range engagement, tatsu is anti projectile. BUT I think the archetype should be shut down to there and only there. It's clear and distinct that kage and akuma do not play this same way. Kage cannot play more than arms length and neither characters tatsu is anti projectile - they have moves named and animated the same, but do not have the same properties, and it's the properties that define the shoto playstyle. kage is clearly a Rushdown character who has to stay glued to his opponent, meanwhile akuma uses his nasty air-to-ground moves for immense pressure and confusing, difficult to read and respond to offense. So I do actually think that "demon flipper" is in itself, an archetype. It's clear that the ways Kimberly, Akuma, Cammy, Zeku and more pressure their opponent all works very similarly. They stay at around a jumps length away to confuse opponents as to whether they will play keepaway, or get in on the opponent, but their keepaway moves are very limited, while their get in moves are numerous and difficult to anticipate. Them being just out of their own effective range is where the mixup starts, they're not staying glued to you or even trying to get into effective range. They want you to step into or out of that zone and to pick their response to mess with it.

[@Gilthwixt1]

Well the way it works with Animal Taxonomy is that you start with a general category (say, Mammalia) and get more specific as you go lower (Felidae vs Canidae) so while All-Rounder is kind of generic in that it lumps Guile and Ryu together, further classification will separate them; it isn't meant to be THE archetype but a category that can be further refined. But I agree that having more than two main descriptors can get messy, I just don't think I have the breadth of knowledge to start categorizing characters across the entire genre on my own, as I mostly play SF with a little GG and Marvel on the side. Mostly I'd just like strict definitions with as little confusion as possible. Using Shoto that way makes a lot of sense, but you just know the purists are gonna argue with excluding Kage and Akuma, solely from a lore perspective; that's kind of why I think Flavor/Theme as a separate thing and putting Shoto there while using a different term to describe the "honest" playstyle might lead to less confusion. That way we can stop calling that playstyle in other games "The Shoto of " so the lore purists don't argue. With Cammy's Hooligan changes I 100% love the idea of throwing her into a "Demon-flipper" sub archetype. She gets actual mixups out of it now.

[@DarumaFGC]

@@Gilthwixt1 Just to quickly adress the shoto thing, I think if I say I want to play a shoto, who is the shoto in this game, and you show me kage or something, theres very high odds I won't like them, archetypes are and always were intended as descriptors of a playstyle. While "shoto" has a lore background, so does something like "mishima" - it's just something you'll have to deal with correcting people on unfortunately, cause its really not worth allowing the semantic definition to rule over the actually useful one, or else its just useless to say someones a shoto

[@mr.grimms4645]

Kabal has entered the chat

[@DarumaFGC]

I'd maybe instinctively say khotal for MK, but in mk9 and prior, I think this could fit both kabal and kano

[@ninjaman505]

No I'd say it's either shoa or kotal khan

[@joezar33]

​​@@DarumaFGC thought Bully we're also known as *Bruiser's or Bulldozers* ? Juggernaut and Lobo I consider bully characters.

[@DarumaFGC]

Those characters are way more aggressive than these guys. Juggernaut and Lobo want to close the gap and get in. Whereas these guys want the opponent to try and close the gap, and to interrupt them doing it. Something juggernaut and Lobo actually struggle doing if they attempt it.

[@mr.grimms4645]

@@DarumaFGC mk9 Kabal definitely mk11 Kabal is kind of a bully too but nowhere near as bad as mk9

[@scooterberry0605]

How I've always seen bully characters as pressure cookers where the goal is to be as oppressive as possible until the opponent folds

[@DarumaFGC]

Hahaha, this is a good use of the term "pressure cooker" out of its original context. Nicely done.

[@mamba7160]

I’m liking this series. no one’s really breaking down character subgenres

[@DarumaFGC]

I'd like a lot for there to be more specifics tied to terminology, and for a lot of characters that don't get proper titles to have something that groups them in with similar characters from other games.

[@GuestFGC]

Was hoping to hear you talk abt my favorite bully character, heihachi. He also represents a type of bully that I think was not talked abt in this video, the characters who are amazing at using big buttons to apply huge amounts of pressure through plus frames

[@DarumaFGC]

Tekkens a little bit of a nightmare to scrape footage for so I tend to only use it when necessary. I think though that high active frames moves with low recovery on whiff like ewgf and hellsweep really fit this category, and it's ultimately exactly what Tekken 4 Jin does with his laser scraper too

[@GuestFGC]

@@DarumaFGC I was mostly referring to heihachi’s f4 in tekken 7, a mid that’s +4 on block, +7 on hit (+13 - +14 if hit on a crouching opponent, which gives guaranteed followups) and knocks down on counter hit. His f3 is a counter hit launcher with similar frame data (no plus frames on block tho), these tools can be used in conjunction to convince your opponent to stay standing, which opens them up to hell sweep, an annoying low that’s +8 on hit and guarantees more pressure.

[@RIVR-23]

Same with Shao Kahn

[@Reassembling]

I am so happy to see someone talking about this. I have tried to explain this concept lots of times but never could find the words. I main fang in sfv and played him just like this! I feel like he worked better as a bully than he ever did as a zoner.

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad you appreciate it! I think its good to remember that terms like this are just as valuable as verbs as they are adjectives. Just like you can Zone as a non zoner, you can bully as a non-bully too. It describes a strategy as much as it does an archetype of character design.

[@hijster479]

Now this is something I'm going to have to start using myself, it makes a ton of sense and its much more descriptive for characters like Zbroly and Sagat than thinking of them as Hybrids of two of the big four archetypes. I feel like Gordeau from Under Night would be a decent example of another Bully in an anime game. Between Rusty Nail, Mortal Slide, and especially *GURIMU RIIPPA!!!* he's great harassing you while you're in the danger zone. He even has a few niche command normals, and the added bonus of GRD stealing moves, one of which is a command grab. He pushes you around and steals your lunch money, if that's not a Bully I don't know what is.

[@DarumaFGC]

It's hard for me to decide if I'd call gordeau a bully outright, he very clearly has a lot of overlap with the midranger, since he keeps people a swords (scythes) length away and only sometimes bothers to get close, but he is definitely more aggro than the average midranger. Might be a product though of the assault system making under night a generally aggressive game. Plus under night absolutely adores giving characters moves that move them forward a ton, I think only Hilda and vatista might not have moves that push them like 25% of screen forward, but it's been a long time since I've played against either of them, so they might also have them, and I've just forgot.

[@hijster479]

@@DarumaFGC Well the thing is everyone in Under Night has at least one or two pretty big buttons (even otherwise stubby characters like Mika, Linne, and Chaos.) , and Gordeaus in a similar situation. 5C's really his only Scythe normal worth using as a poke, but it's outclasesed by Mortal Slide in every way, startup, frame advantage, and recovery. His Scythe normals are mostly relegated to combos or pressure, so I don't really see him as much of a Midranger. Then again, Midrange isn't really an archetype we see eye to eye on so I'll also say that I've played Under Night semi-regularly since UNIEL, and I've always thought of Gord as the Sagat. Take that as you will.

[@tylercafe1260]

Excellent idea. I was thinking the other day how archetypes aren't really talked about or explored in discussions. Having a "Bully Type" helps simplify things. I was looking at some characters the other day and came to the conclusion "Specialist" is also an Archetype. Some characters just get super unique things no other character does. Whether it be too hard to play, complex neutral, or counter-meta options. Examples Bears from Tekken, Blitztank, and Phoenix Wright from MVC

[@yikes6758]

Yamazaki in KOF seems emblematic of this archetype! I mean he's literally designed like a delinquent bully, and his toolkit is all about overwhelming option coverage for specific ranges and angles, and converting those hits into immense damage. Fucking love yamazaki

[@DarumaFGC]

Kof has a lot of characters like this, I only showed Clark because of his competitive success, but there's plenty that do this, even women like luong, who might be the only female of this archetype off the top of my head.

[@nixedification]

I think the term "brawler" is a lot more accurate. Either your char has a really strong midrange tool that forces paitient play or your character has an extremely threatening option that leverages risk reward EXTREMELY well (nago 5k, sol close range options in every gg, abigail heavies)

[@DarumaFGC]

I think specifically because there's an archetype that isn't pseudograppler, isn't Rushdown and isn't shotos I.e. Sol, Susano'o, etc that use advancing normals to create a state where they can theoretically keep you cornered just by pressing buttons and without using the stick, and use the fear that inherent gapclosing creates to ensure a near endless blockstring until they decide to take a risk by using an unsafe special move, or going for their command grab, something like "brawler" better applies to them, than bully. Bullies want to stuff your normals and gain basically nothing from you blocking them, whereas sol, susano'o etc's whole gameplan surrounds you blocking them. I'd have to consider for a bit if I'd put nago in with brawler since he can wind up killing himself with his spin and his dash, but realistically he gets enough attempts at that he's going to get the grab mix at some point. So he probably counts too. I think having good distinctions like that is important, so that theoretically, you can say to a beginner "that's a brawler" or "that's a bully" and they both know how to play them and how to play against them just from the archetype name, I think the way you'd approach playing sol and playing against sol is very different from playing and playing against Sagat and Urien.

[@nixedification]

@@DarumaFGC fair point, and thanks for your response!

[@Saskaruto16]

@@DarumaFGC I've been calling Sol a Makshoto. Cause he's Makoto + a shoto. Everyone knows Makoto is just a fast grappler/half grappler with a crazy whiff punish/pressure button but garbage footsies, and really Sol is basically the same thing but with a shotos defensive tools and anti-projectile tools. I've seen the term bruiser or brawler thrown around for characters like that. But my term is funnier IMO.

[@nefarian8553]

Or just a gorilla..... Nago in Strive, older Urien in SF, Marduk in Tekken etc. With all new games, I always ask "who is the worst gorilla in this game" and pick that as main. Marissa looks like a good pick for SF6.

[@ethanhinton4549]

@@DarumaFGC wait Susanoo isn't a Shoto, he lacks a fireball. Plus depending on how specific your definition is he lacks a 214 approach move too. I mean I guess you could consider sword his replacement fireball...

[@zaden9009]

Reminds me of the “Oppressive” archetype. Where they tend to have a good amount of launchers and lots of plus safe options that make the opponent unable to stop blocking. The two characters that instantly come to mind are Negan from Tekken 7 and Jason from Mortal Kombat X.

[@DarumaFGC]

I smelled the mkx coming when you brought up launchers. Unfortunately I don't have the time and resources to include MK in these vids, but I've got a "brawler" archetype video coming this week. Which is similar but notably different to this archetype, hope it interests you

[@zaden9009]

@@DarumaFGC I’ll look forward to it! :D

[@RIVR-23]

Shao Kahn as well

[@OverlordNix]

This sounds exactly like how I play Axl Low in strive, just straight up, as soon as the enemy moves a single frame, I try to interrupt it from full screen.

[@mberto370]

Nago in GGST and Balrog in SFV are some perfect exemples of this archetype and now I understand better what kind of character I like do play

[@eldridgecharles1313]

Broly charging towards you and Ralph charging that gaddamn explosive punch will always scare the shit outta me

[@DarumaFGC]

There is nothing worse than a charged option thats so hard to deal with

[@raball]

Despite the disagreement over the terms you're using, I think the analysis you're doing is really valuable and useful. Good stuff. From your videos I feel that you're saying the difference between a Brawler and Bully is about distance they're pressuring you from, but both rely on relentless pressure. Ramses esports has a video on SSBU archetypes that is game-changing in the way it talks about archetypes - each has a range (close/mid/far) that they want you to be in, and a distribution of tools to get there themselves, or put you there. Having this sort of 1, 2 or 3 axis comparison of how archetypes goals, tools and interaction with the environment helps to frame the discussion in terms that people will relate to functionally, even if they will argue endlessly about choice of words. Looking forward to future entries in your series. cheers

[@DarumaFGC]

I have a video that I made recently about how I come to decisions on where I draw the borders on archetypes and who fits into them. For the case of bullies it's defined by their walling off of space, they have tools with really high active frames that take up a certain area of the screen making it a nightmare to try occupy their death zone, while a brawler is much more straightforward and their kit automatically maneouvers you to the corner, and keeps you there. Obviously you're more than free to disagree on the lines I draw, where I draw them, or how I decide what an archetype is, I can only offer my own insight into things.

[@atomu27]

Cool series, you actually talks about interesting and specific archetypes that aren't just grappler, shoto, zoner and rushdown. These might be the core ones, so to speak, but there is a lot more depth and repeating patterns that birth different archetypes out there.

[@DarumaFGC]

The main archetypes are both slightly less interesting to me and are much bigger videos, I'm handling shoto soon as a 2 parter.

[@uruk_bye1232]

This was well done, and it definitely explains my personal psychology when picking characters. Gosh, I love Sagat.

[@DarumaFGC]

Sagat is extremely cool but shockingly understudied for how iconic he is

[@Bigparr43]

So, the term Bully is very accurate, but I've always seen/used the term Heavy Rushdown due to their reliance on heavy attacks and typically larger stature of the characters. This is contrasted by the fast speedster style characters (females of this archetypes are sometimes called Pixies) are referred to as Light Rushdown in my parlance. Makes the terminology easy. In BlazBlue, the prime example of Light Rushdown is Taokaka but a prime example of a Heavy Rushdown is Azrael shown in the video

[@DarumaFGC]

I like clearer, snappier terms since generally, they get the idea across of what the entire character does even to a beginner player who maybe hasnt even tried a single character yet.

[@PlatinumMage]

Sagat is definitely a zoner in SF4 and SF2. His fireballs are meant to be used at an unreactable distance which lets sagat zone people out effectively. In sfv zoning is harder with fireballs but he still keeps people at a distance. Sagat is definitely a zoning character. His unique normals are to punish reckless play and keep enemies away.

[@naransolongoboldbayer8030]

I could never really figure out the link between the various characters I play in various fighters. I knew they was a reason why I felt many of them were similar and this video finally put it into words. I definitely gravitate towards the bully characters and DEFINITELY say No whenever I land a callout

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad I could help you define your own playstyle and know why you look for what you enjoy in certain characters! Hope this helps you develop more in future!

[@arktype586]

other ideas you might be interested in: ► Reversal characters ► One shot characters ► Snowball characters enjoying the videos so far! thanks!

[@DarumaFGC]

Would you give me a few examples of who exactly you'd count as a reversal character? In my mind reversals are not really an inherent part of any archetype, you could even theoretically have a shoto without one, they'd just be very weak. But I'm sure there's some characters im blanking on who have a lot more reversal moves than I'm thinking of. Unless you mean something more like parry characters, which is actually planned, just a little far away from now. One-shots I don't really like as an archetype distinction, I might make a short-form video on it in future, but to put it simply, most one-shots don't actually play anything like eachother, while they get more powerful later into a match, arakune, oro and phoenix all play nothing like eachother. Snowball is one I have rolled around in my head for this series though (pun intended) - I'm waiting for something to happen where they become a bit more relevant again to put out any discussion on them, since the most recent snowball character I can think of is Gohan from FighterZ, who has been in for 5 years now. So he's a little far behind on relevance compared to some more pressing archetypes.

[@arktype586]

@@DarumaFGC yeah, when i think in reversal characters i think about those characters who are super focused in their defensive options, specially in stopping/ignoring the oponents attacks and punishing them, for example: Baiken having guard cancels in guilty gear, ultra instinct goku having like a milion reversals being an anomaly defensive character in a game like fighter z, hakumen and his parrys, aoi from virtua fighter being a NO U machine that just stop and punish every hit, all that. That's the vibe i get when i think in a reversal character, someone with a massive enphasis in parries, reversals, deflections, punish you for daring to attack, etc. Might just parry character as you say. i think of one shot character as the equivalent of playing a combo deck in tcgs, you just get your super specific combo and win, but i will have to agree with you that characters like nagoriyuki and elizabeth (p4a) don't play the same even tho i would consider them one shot characters so is hard to say. the infil fighting game glossary has a section of snowball characters with examples, i would add g and q (sf series) and labrys from p4a. Pretty much characters that have some acumulative or level up mechanic at the core of their gameplay (even tho this could have the same problem as the one shot characters) in wich they don't play the same. Lily from sf6 has this mechanic as a recent example. this are just ideas tho, i hope you find them useful somehow.

[@bassbusterx]

oh I thought snowball was gonna be the same as a vortex character, surprised to learn otherwise

[@BlitzWhat]

I would say Aoi from VF and Hakumen are archetypal reversal/counter characters. Aoi especially thrives on turning your own aggression against you.

[@arktype586]

@@dankgothtrash a character that "one shots" you, wich means that they need one key interaction in their favor to do a ridiculos amount of damage. In theory they should be balanced around having a hard time getting their one shot reddit moment by having poor neutral, needing all their meter, being limited by a special resource or other condition, etc. Nagoriyuki is classified as having a one shot battle type (the archetypes gg strive uses) because he can explode you if you give him an opening in the right moment thanks to his ability to cancel specials into special limit by the blood gauge. I like to see it as an archetype but not all one shot characters play the same so that could be a point against it.

[@34dore]

This shares a name with another series i love so whenever this name shows up in my feed from now on i know it might be one of two things, both of them good!

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad I offer something to the yugioh crowd! I haven't made any vids on it yet, but have a big one planned on why fighting gamers should give card games a try and vice versa.

[@sonofaglitch7549]

Thanks, that really explains why I had bad time with sagat in usf4 I always thought he was a zoner so I used him like a zoner I also always tried to anti air with do but that has more to do with my inexperience at the time

[@DarumaFGC]

His zonings really only there to prevent staying fullscreen, its strong but its immensely difficult to win games with even in the games where its at its strongest.

[@beardofknowledge3792]

It's actually pretty interesting to me to see this kind of video- I've always prided myself on having excellent reaction speed for fighting games, and my go-to characters tend to be those rushdown styles. That said, though, when it came to Street Fighter, ever since the beginning, I played Sagat, and opted to win the neutral with his reach more than anything else. I played the defense, and it was weird, but it worked and felt good, so much so that I still remember my elder brother giving up on trying to out-neutral me with Ken before swapping over to trying to zone me out instead. I've never thought of it as a 'bully' playstyle but it makes sense in a way, though I always thought of it as 'I will teach you how to beat it if you pay attention'.

[@DarumaFGC]

If only "I will teach you how to beat it if you pay attention" fit in a thumbnail. Jokes aside though there's some really dishonest stuff about some of these characters that you just wouldn't know without someone telling you outright. So I probably wouldn't group them as something like that and instead something more specific.

[@beardofknowledge3792]

@@DarumaFGC I get that, now that I'm older and understand fighting games better. The me of ten years ago, I wouldn't have ever noticed that a low that's, say, plus 4 on block that combos into an overheard thst reaches damn near midscreen, I wouldn't have said "oh that's unfair" I would have just said "wow that's crazy strong" or something, because the lens of youth had *every* character have something cool about them- which is why I often picked Random just to see who I got this time.

[@Vernafveik]

The 6'0 v 5'11 Archetype

[@NoshuHyena]

Samus from Smash Ultimate definitely fits this. If there's one character who loves to deny your options, it's her. When players stopped playing her like a zoner and figured out how to play her like a bully, she shot way up the tier list.

[@DarumaFGC]

She's a very interesting to watch character competitively because all her options are exceedingly punishable when you compare to the rest of the cast, but they are strong in really specific scenarios that samus players work constantly to create. They're always really hard dedicating to something that is in theory extremely unsafe but using an overwhelming mix of all her tools to make situations where she won't get punished for them. The same goes for melee samus too who has similarly shifted tier list standing lately after years of being really far down the list

[@NoshuHyena]

@@DarumaFGC Yeah, very well put!

[@thomassilveira7365]

This video made me realize what to term my preferred type of characters

[@GrogMcFrog]

I think bedman? (guilty gear strive) Fits in this perfectly. -annoyingly fast projectiles to harass zoners -mid to long range pokes that are hard to contest and lead to combos -seemingly endless block pressure and the ability to make previously negative moves posistive

[@DarumaFGC]

I had to think about this, but you're probably about right. It's a little odd to describe how the error specials work, since they're not really setplay, but they just serve to make everything else safer, which is basically just an intimidation tool

[@gangbang2706]

I was thinking Nago, - Good long range normals to control neutral - Very high damage - Oppressive command grab that leads to really dangerous strike/throw mixes - Fukyo is a ridiculously strong movement tool that makes him terrifying at mid range because he can and will mix you when he tps to you.

[@Whitebeardcrewmate]

Marisa definitely feels like fighting games' newest bully

[@raidennc]

This was great! Love the content to this channel (just discovered it). Small nitpick - defensive players arent betting that they will make the right reaction "every single time" so much as making the right reaction "consistently enough"

[@jasomega2446]

2:02 That Sagat Costume looks cool.

[@DarumaFGC]

Normally I try use default outfits in videos but in that instance that's the one I have saved for when I use him

[@MrShahrozzz]

I used to main Sagat in SF4. Very oppressive character! & would often help with crazy comebacks

[@DarumaFGC]

Yeah the guy is a beast, you really feel like it playing him

[@dhayris160]

If SFV has a bully character, M.Bison (Dictator) and Balrog (Boxer) definitely fit the bill. The way they abuse plus frames basically say “no” the moment you’re in range. Dictator can eat your fireballs and throw them back in your face. Boxer can spin through range or delete most armor with charged VS2 dash punch. Ex dash punch used to be plus and is too fast to react to unless you’re near a full screen away. Then once they’re in, they force you to either use meter to escape or guess right on a challenge.

[@DarumaFGC]

The getting in though, is why I would probably seperate them from these guys, Sagat and Urien are really happy to concede the knock-downs they get for their V-skills, it keeps them in the game and is really big for winning specific matchups for them. And even when they do try to do okizeme, without meter dumping their Oki is pretty trash, especially for SFV. Meanwhile bison and Balrog are actually really happy to just stick to you like glue and have unbelievably good pressure. You especially don't see balrog playing keepaway.

[@respectblindfolds7411]

I was so confused when this showed up in my recommended until I saw the channel name. Funny how that just lines up like that.

[@satorrotas93]

I think Nago from GGST is probably the best example of this archetype I’ve seen. He’s pretty much unstoppable unless you zone him out or force him to pop blood rage.

[@r15835]

You should see his mentor, Slayer.

[@DarumaFGC]

I think Nago, Sol, slayer & Susano'o come under a different archetype that I want to describe next week. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts when I do.

[@faken6252]

I’d say Goldlewis might be the bully of Strive. He’s so plus on many of his moves, you dont even get to play the game. And if you challenge him at a bad time your health bar just blows up. But I do agree Nago can be very opressive as well

[@satorrotas93]

@@r15835 Oh, believe me, I know all about the crimes against humanity that Slayer mains commit on a daily basis.

[@satorrotas93]

@@DarumaFGC Well, I’m intrigued. I’ll make sure to tune in next week.

[@quinndepatten4442]

Special shout out to incineroar and Ganondorf in smash. In particular incineroar, he's supposed to be a heel so it works perfectly for him. Skyjay even played the part in ultimate summit 6.

[@DarumaFGC]

That actually sounds about right.

[@RetroKid]

I think that bullies aren't really archetypes, but they could be a play style that you apply to the archetype. But I mean is that you can have a rushdown character or a zoner or a grappler. Be a bully by oppressively pressing buttons and keeping you locked down. This doesn't necessarily mean that all the things that the play style does is safe, but that's not part of the definition. Willy's aren't just players use. They are the type in a very offensive non-stop manner. I wouldn't say it's an archetype.

[@greyghost3390]

This is a great video! One suggestion for the next one: can you lower the background music volume and make your audio a little louder? Love the content and series, keep it up!

[@DarumaFGC]

Mixing is absolutely horrendously difficult, vids sound totally different with/without headphones, and on a pc versus on a phone. It is something I'm aware of, and I test my vids on both devices before they go public, but there's always some improvement to be done. Every vids a little better than the last in that department.

[@The4stro]

FINALLY. SOMEONE DESCRIBED MY FAVORITE ARCHETYPE

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad you agree with my assessment!

[@Sparking_Ram]

Me and my friends have a name for the close range bullies specifically. We call them Sluggers as they usually consist of big hits that are only a little slower than most normals and tend to have crushing or armored properties. Essentially they get in and they slug ya, and when two sluggers fight, its a slug fest.

[@DarumaFGC]

I like that for some characters. While there's not a wide enough distinction from a slugger and a bully for me to write up a totally seperate definition, there's definitely use for it as a bully-adjacent term. For example many people in the comments believe Gordeau from under-night should be a Bully, but I'm more inclined to call him a midranger, I think Slugger is a happy middle ground for that kind of scenario.

[@__m4k1__]

thank you for these. im trying to get into the fgc and this is really helping me understand what i want from my own play

[@DarumaFGC]

You might like my beginner and intermediate series, they go over major skills with an emphasis on what you should learn early, and how you develop your strategy as a specific character

[@BasicallyGoblin]

OH MY GOD, I'VE BEEN TRYING TO PUT IT INTO WORDS, BUT THIS IS EXACTLY THE CHARACTER I LOVE TO PLAY. THE BIT ABOUT DEFENSIVE PLAYERS PUTTING ALL THEIR EGGS IN ONE BASKET AND GETTING MAD WHEN IT DOESN'T GO TO PLAN? THAT'S ME TO A FUCKING TEE.

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad to be of service, mister goblin 💪

[@therealdrdrip]

amazingly well-put together video dude, you deserve more subs than you have.

[@therealdrdrip]

Like me for real ;-;

[@DarumaFGC]

Thanks so much for the kind words! Doing my best to put out good content! I'm glad its paying off!

[@goosemontv]

I dont fully subscribe to this bully arch type definition. By this definition any character can be a bully character when the opponent doesnt know the match up

[@DarumaFGC]

And Ryu can be a zoner if your opponent doesnt know how to block. "To zone" as a verb, is different than "To be a zoner" as an adjective. Its understood that although the concept is replicable, it has specific use cases too.

[@STEOLENTIST]

awesome video daruma! after watching this i think im starting to understand that the bully archetype is probably what i enjoy the most and ive always had a hard time putting a finger on it

[@DarumaFGC]

Happy to help you find ur place bud

[@ADerpyZelda]

randomly got recommended you, good video, well spoken, easy to understand and listen to

[@DarumaFGC]

Much appreciated! Doing my best to be clear and concise.

[@Neogears1312]

I would like to add some rushdown characters fall into this too. Terry Bogard builds his gameplan off frustrating the opponent into making a mistake to compensate for his poor mixup skills.

[@DarumaFGC]

Pretty close yeah, I'd group Terry more in with characters like Sol, Susano'o and nago, in a slightly different archetype, but more on that in the not so distant future. Hope you're interested in seeing it when it arrives!

[@figureitout2973]

I never realized this was an archetype. I feel like Nago is a bully one shot type and its so fun just trying to get them to press a button to deletion

[@DarumaFGC]

Got a video coming with Nago in it really soon. Monday or Tuesday. On a similar but different archetype. Look forward to it!

[@ethanadams8109]

Goldlewis feels more like a bully imo

[@figureitout2973]

@@ethanadams8109 now that you mention it i think you are exactly right. A big boi just oppressing you

[@ethanadams8109]

@@figureitout2973 He truly is the embodiment of America

[@iiequinox8044]

Great video! I like this style of video - I would like to see your interpretation of the 'trickster' playstyle. Blanka is what mainly comes to mind to me.

[@DarumaFGC]

Trickster isn't really something I'd use as a label myself, it's very vague and because of the idea it brings of dishonesty, would mostly cover just knowledge-check characters. Who are only scary until you know about their moves properties, then they stop being able to play. Blankas an interesting case though because I think he pretty explicitly used to be a bully. Blanka ball was his lariat, electricity was a parry for any physical based move, and he used ridiculously long normals with low recovery to make gap closing insanely hard. He was actually a staunch mid-tier in early versions of SF2 because of this. But super turbo and beyond buffing projectiles And nerfing his startup and recovery made him way way worse. And for some reason, he's just stayed that way. If you look at his tools now, he's still on paper designed to bully, but his frame data is so bad that he can't, he's effectively lost an archetype due to how hard he's been nerfed, since none of his gameplans work at a base level.

[@iiequinox8044]

@@DarumaFGC Makes me REALLY excited for Blanka in SF6, because I can definitely see how he was once a bully when he was high tier. The main reason I call him a "knowledge check" character is his use of blanka ball (now) and how the opponent can punish it (if at all). I guess the playstyle I considered "trickster" characters are characters that kinda are similar to bullies. But instead of relying on their massive hurtboxes and plus-on-block normals, they rely on mix-ups and short bursts of aggression, before ducking out safely when they're forced to return to neutral. Sort of a "hit and run" kind of character. They intentionally frustrate the opponent with this tactic until they make a mistake like a greedy dash or whiffed normal that gives the trickster a chance to mix again. I kinda considered Vega a "trickster" at one point, but I think he's just weird.

[@DarumaFGC]

@@iiequinox8044 I would call hit and run an archetype and do have a video planned on it as an archetype. There are lots of characters in many fighting games that do it. I really hope blankas pressure works out for him, I think blanka-chan was a pretty much perfect addition to his moveset, it's just a case of seeing if they nuke his frame data or not.

[@jabo_o]

You had me when you said that the Bullies favorite phrases is: No.

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad you agree!

[@azechase6597]

The rushdown The lockdown (brawler) And the shutdown (the bully) that's what i prefer to call these kinds of characters

[@explisikk_yt9069]

Yo dis shii was HILARIOUS the bully favorite phrase "NO" was WILD🤣🤣

[@DarumaFGC]

Glad you enjoyed bro

[@desert_sam9651]

The character that sums this up the most is Azrael from Blazblue (IYKYK) and I main the hell out of him

[@DarumaFGC]

Yeah he really is just insane to a hilarious degree.

[@ryanbradleyrankin]

There is of course match up specific bully scenarios. Dee Jay in sf4 was pretty mediocre character but. He was one of the few characters who could blow up dive kick presser saying "no" to dive kicks and his light sobat blew up low pokes. So shotos and other characters reliant on low pokes had to be more creative in nuetral.

[@DarumaFGC]

I should probably do a video on this sort of meatying soon given how common divekicks are in sf6, plus Dee jay looks great, so I'm definitely wanting to give him a good try

[@StillJustAJ]

I dont think this should be a standalone archetype. I think this is just a grappler with rushdown abilities. At least the way you described it, Broly although fitting a "Bully" very well, in comparison to the rest of the cast he is more of a grappler, this is cause all of DBFZ has a universal rushdown mechanic. I think these are more of just rushdown characters with different weaknesses, Broly's is his size and ability to be mixed up easily. I think the bully is easily the best name for this type of archetype, but a fusion of 2 or more of the main 4 archetypes is VERY common in fighting game communities. Love the vid tho!

[@DarumaFGC]

I'm assuming you're mainly a fighterZ character but the other characters mentioned in this vid, alongside a lot of the characters mentioned in the comments that fit well under the bully archetype, don't actually have command grabs, and even though Broly does have a command grab, he very clearly relys on it much less than the actual dedicated grapplers in fighterZ, Super Broly and 16. The main reason I want to define more archetypes is so that new players get a better idea of who they want to play from what they want to actually do while playing, and also allow players coming from different games, like transferring to street fighter from FighterZ for example, to transfer their character specific counter-strategies too and make cross-game knowledge both more well known and easily applicable

[@danf.5986]

Kinda surprised you didn't mention Goldlewis tbh

[@DarumaFGC]

He does apply, I just couldnt cover much more than I did. Thankfully the comments are here to cover the characters that couldn't quite fit the video!

[@shybaka2892]

I personally call these type of characters "The Brute"

[@DarumaFGC]

Not bad either, I just like Bully as it's a verb as well as an adjective. You can bully someone even if you're not a bully character. But, saying you "bruted" someone is a little unweildly

[@02owo32]

Heey I just subbed today to your channel and you release a video, nice! I'm new to fighting games (playing SFV rn) I hope to see lots of your videos when SF6 comes out! Wish you and the channel the best there!

[@DarumaFGC]

Yeah I'm gonna be taking SF6 super seriously, I already have I think 5 videos out covering it? Not only do I want to take the time to reach and keep a very high rank, but there will be lots of tutorials and character specific coverage too.

[@WhyHandlesIMeanFroggchamp]

I’m using this playstyle. I love 50/50s so-

[@judgementcl]

I think Johnny from GG falls under this category although he's more of a snowball character overall, in XRD he is an exceptional bully character especially if he touches you once. With level 3 Mist Finer he can deny zoning completely and every jump height in the game 💀

[@DarumaFGC]

He really is just evil. Some characters are so good they become difficult to define. Archetypes are about having a focal strength, but being good at everything kinda makes you lose some of that focus.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Mid range heavy hitters is how I always saw em or well at least MOST of the time. Mid range and bully characters are kinda similar but also not really so it’s hard to categorize

[@DarumaFGC]

That's why I wanted to try make the distinction and did these two vids together first

[@launchpadmcquack24]

I feel like in a weird way Sm4sh and Ultimate Toon Link fit this bill. He's a midrange character with a lot of options that are designed to force players to become impatient where you can punish with his great frame data moves, like up smash. Huge fan of this playstyle generally

[@DarumaFGC]

Pretty much all the links love catching you pressing and have good hitboxes that last a long time, and don't particularly care about block pressure or anything similar. Archetypes do work a little differently in smash but long active frames Is a good thing to note when thinking about matchups in that game

[@thechamberlain4251]

Every single one of my mains have featured in this video to some capacity. What does this say about me as a person.

[@DarumaFGC]

You enjoy putting your friends and loved ones through mental anguish but you're not the kind of person to optimise your combos super strongly or come up with your own setups, just the basics of your character will do as long as you can still pull out wins a reasonable amount of the time.

[@f1r3hunt3rz5]

I thought this was a Rank10 Rata video for a second, good vid tho

[@nobbymcnobs8721]

bro stole my comment smh

[@DarumaFGC]

I'm so sorry for making people think a yugituber has gone off the wall and made fighting game discussion out of nowhere

[@Tricky_The_Cl0wn]

I play z broly and using him is fun to do this, however, I’m not just a bully, I use hit and cooler and since hit is basically the speed character, it’s absolutely broken with my team as well as cooler being able to mixup opponents. My team is absolute pain to go against

[@DarumaFGC]

I'm looking forward to getting to cover hit. It's a ways off but characters who have complete grounded dominance but 0 air game are very cool. It's an interesting way to design a character.

[@Tricky_The_Cl0wn]

@@DarumaFGC that’s the best part, hit is not the best in air UNLESS you know how his stances work, or his specials, making him absolutely broken for no reason.

[@philly2548]

I remember Tusk from Ki and his built in parry on some of his moves

[@DarumaFGC]

Quite right! A fair few people have brought that up in the comments. His main goal is indeed move interruption, so its totally valid here.

[@Knightgob]

Ah yes, my favorite archetype H A R A S M E N T also a kof mention, cool, Ralf W

[@DarumaFGC]

Wish I could do more! But the love sadly isn't there for it in raw numbers. I do put it in where I can.

[@Denemwhite3]

This has helped me kind of define what I like about characters, or just generally my own playstyle. I really enjoy characters like Bryan/Negan in Tekken 7, While they definitely have a much more refined playstyle at a higher level, at a mid-level, I feel like these kind of descriptions really nail down how they function, often times abusing large hitboxes, pushback, frame traps and having a lot of access to things that aren't quite 'true' but apply mental pressure and force characters to play very patiently into them to achieve wins, while actively having some pretty major flaws/drawbacks within their kit that require the players of them to play smart to induce frustration. I feel like in Negan's case the move that symbolizes this the most is his F1+2. Armored launcher that can turn steal situations against overly zealous players that can put rushdown-esque players back into a range he's more comfortable with so he can start his own gameplan back up while actively denying other characters easy access to 'his' space that they would like for their own plan. But patient players can see the gaps in their pressure and often have to make a conscious decision to stop or continue. Or have the ability to pull back early enough into his armored move to block and punish.

[@DarumaFGC]

Pretty spot on, and it's smart of you to use the distinction that they play differently at a high level than to a middling level of play. The higher you go the less you want to play Bryan in particular like this, since important blockstrings put him a bit closer to his opponent than he'd like to be and minus, so he stops being quite as overzealous once people pass this knowledge check. But you're totally right about Negan, and it's why characters like Sagat and Negan when balanced in this particular way tend to fall to the wayside in tier lists. It might be a "safe way to take risks" (lol) but pressuring with far buttons and just hoping to catch startup is risky and characters who take less risks wind up much higher tier in any fighting game. Look at Dragunov in literally any Tekken, he's geared so well to be purely reactive if he wants and only use extremely safe buttons that he's never far from top tier.

[@sonnyboyd10]

Just because they are power types, tanks, OP, or cheap. Doesn't make them bullies. If anything a zoner, a grappler, or jack of all trades can be a bully. It's all about how you use them.

[@EDarien]

I get what you're saying, but your choice for Sagat opposed to say Bison or even Honda in this category of a character that isn't fast or rushdown, but still bullies the opponent with grey life and chip damage while countering attempts to escape would be more appropriate than Sagat who really is more of a zoner/almost shoto character with his move list.

[@gowiththeflow363]

Garou's boss, Kain feels like an unorthodox answer but i think he is. Absolutely ridiculous normals, he's a charge character so he has to call out a lot with ridiculous moves and frame traps. And since he's a boss of course he has crazy chip damage

[@PapasConQu3so]

I think TamTam from Samurai Shodown fits here, he has projectiles and long range pokes to harass the opponent and a powerful grab attack that punishes foolish approaches, however he has low horizontal movility, and his normals are not that good when your opponent is on your face, so if he is ever forced to make anything proactive he will often die in the process Im new to Samurai Shodown so, my character analysis might be off

[@DarumaFGC]

I think id maybe agree, funnily enough, cham cham stands out as a possible example too. Although, its maybe a bit unfair thinking of samsho through the same lens, this sort of "Saying no" combat denial is sort of the core of the whole game competitively, and is what famously causes up to 40 second long breaks of nobody attacking the other, as attack denial and whiff punishing is the core of the game loop

[@shamfyre]

For all that street fighter footage im surprised you didn't talk about Honda or Bison.

[@DarumaFGC]

I wouldn't include Bison because while he has 5 star defence he also has 5 star offence. I'll maybe do an entirely separate video on him or just boss characters in general. He's not designed to have a fair and cohesive kit in itself but to dominate basically every part of neutral. He has amazing disjoints, really really great gap closing, good counter-zoning, great okizeme, even left-right mix which is really rare in SF. He's so good it's hard or pointless to pin him down to one thing, and it makes his playstyle not really resemble the way these guys play, even though he's very good at the stuff they're good at too. Honda's a bit more interesting too, he does have really great short ranged keepaway, but moves like his butt stomp and flying headbutt are more designed for him to gap close than to just play keepaway, and similarly he has really good close range pressure with his clap giving him a free safe blockstring end to literally anything, and great Oki too. I'll maybe talk about charge characters in a much longer than normal version of these. Because charge quite often is a secondary archetype rather than primary archetype, we tend to think of exclusively guile-like characters as charge characters, and characters like bison and honda as something seperate. Which I agree with too, but the reason they have charge properties is to make them exceedingly good at certain other neutral skills besides what you get from Guile's Sonic boom or flash kick.

[@shamfyre]

@Daruma I wouldn't say being a bully character is necessarily about defense or danger zones so much as just taking away an opponents options and keeping them on the ropes. Generally most of the characters I've seen categorized as bully characters are called so because of their offense, especially when they can always stay plus. That's why I suppose it's strange to see you talk about Sagat as a bully character, something I've never heard anyone say before (or any similar zoner). That said, I also don't see characters who use more technical frame traps referred to as bully characters so much as characters who can do it with low effort/spamming the same one or two moves (such as Honda). Bison is more of a bully for reasons you mentioned in the video.

[@DarumaFGC]

My next video is on the Brawler archetype and there's a short diversion in it talking about the idea of the gorilla playstyle. A lot of these terms are used derogatorily without much thought put into actually defining them. In this comment section alone I've heard these Bully characters be called Rushdown, Brawler, Bruiser, Juggernaut, lockdown, oppressive, brute, etc. There isn't really much strict defining of any of these terms going on, nor is there much thought into why certain characters are certain archetypes. I'd like for even the terms purely meant as insults like Gorilla to have firmer more defined borders so people don't wind up confused about what they think certain characters do or don't count as. And I want it to be the case that when I tell you, this is my oc in my new fighting game Steven, and he's a Bully. You know exactly how he plays, exactly how to play his neutral optimally and exactly how to counter him. So that's why I wouldn't include Bison here, you won't win using the strategies I described either as or against him. I think if you're just going off like the 7 archetypes I've mentioned explicitly in my videos - Rushdown, Grappler, Zoner, Shoto, midranger, item-thrower, Bully. For sure, then you'd count E honda and Bison as bullies. But there's a lot more than just those so I want to try and define a lot more of them and get them into common tongue somewhat. Like I think it's silly to claim akuma and ryu are the same archetype, while they play worlds apart from eachother. Completely different gameplans and wildly different counter strategies.

[@ignaeon]

I'm shocked you mentioned blazblue without including Susano'o, king of Unga.

[@DarumaFGC]

I'd group susano'o in with sol and Nago under "brawler" - a term people throw around a lot with no definition whatsoever, but I think it best fits these characters with big advancing normals that loop into themselves for basically infinite pressure until they decide to go for a relatively unsafe mixup. Think characters that fight like Arkham batman where their moves just magnetise them to opponents. Which is what separates these characters from bullies, or Rushdown. Since both bullies and Rushdown get very considerably pushed back by standard blocking whereas for brawler's, you must barrier block or escape the grab or they can just lock you down forever.

[@kuidelu]

It's the opposite of the Shoto who say "yes" and counter

[@kingdedede933]

I have to say, as a Tusk player in KI, he's a very good example of The Bully

[@Leet-iz2fz]

Losing a match? Just say NO! Zoners legally cannot shoot you without your consent.

[@DarumaFGC]

Completely true, and a valid legal defense should anyone need it.

[@exaltedfalcheon1793]

So they're the " When do I get to play? That's the neat part, *you don't* " archetype

[@DarumaFGC]

Pretty much yeah. Watching these guys play well is like watching a fly be swatted.

[@2Namii]

This is a great series. Got my sub

[@DarumaFGC]

3rd episode coming within a week!

[@vandagylon2885]

It just sounds like you're describing really good zoners

[@NightRider167]

Thanks for the KoF music 🍷

[@DarumaFGC]

Hey thank SNK for making bangers

[@greatestgamer00]

My mains/faves. Lars,enkidu, azreal,urien kouma are basicly bullys or at least have bullie attributes. I made this realization when playing tekken and loving bs crushing moves like lars uf3 or claudios hop kick. they give me azreal unga vibes. all synched in when enkidus main mechanics is literaly ohh did you dare try to challenge my bouton and we both hit each other. ha jokes one you its MY TURN NOW. the most bullie attribute. but this vid finaly gave my thoughts and archetype. thank you now i truly now what to call what im looking for in mains.

[@DarumaFGC]

They're really really good at keeping your opponent in check. The aggressive frametrapping and shutdown of approach is a fun and difficult game to play. Remember just like you can say "zoning" as a verb, but only some characters are "zoners" same goes for bullying, and bullies

[@HELLRAISER02]

Somehow i never thought of bullies like this, cuz i thought bullying someone was bout making someone feeding off fear, with plus frames on block, or armor, or wack call out moves, not feeding off of being annoying Cuz i always thought sagat was a zoner Yeah but i got no idea

[@DarumaFGC]

Sagat often got called a zoner for years but that mostly feeds off the original sf2 incarnation of him and that's a game where projectiles not only were always good but actually got better in later versions since they got way faster in turbo and beyond. Fireball zoning in modern games is really weak for a multitude of reasons, so the main reason it's there on any character is to make your opponent jump over it, not to actually hit them with the fireballs. Forcing your opponent to jump makes them free to DP. Or at very least gets them close to you so they can't stay fullscreen.

[@HELLRAISER02]

@@DarumaFGC i thought forcing the enemy to jump so you DP em was being a zoner, which sagat can still do in 5...unless i read that wrong....great now im questioning my thoughts on archetypes again

[@DarumaFGC]

Most zoners don't have DPs and most fighting game pro players absolutely fear and dread the idea of that. I.e. look at Dhalsim, Poison, etc. Dedicated Zoners have insanely strong keepaway but to make up for that their reversal options are extremely limited.

[@HELLRAISER02]

@@DarumaFGC guess i never thought of poison cuz i dont care bout her, but ye they dont have DPs Maybe i gotta play more 2D fighters cuz i thought most zoners had a DP or at least a good anti air Still some of these archetypes are so awkward to define (even the core 4, shoto, rush, zoner n grappler) since theres so many spins on em, and are iften mixed a lot, which does make many chars interesting....id go on but i dont think i have a point here, but i think this is all interesting

[@DarumaFGC]

Oh, if you're talking about 3D that's probably why. Almost no one zones in Tekken naturally. And anyone with a fireball comes from a 2D game - Eliza, akuma, geese. And while I think you can jump reppuken, I'm pretty sure you cannot jump akumas hadouken unless you're also a 2D character. While sidestepping it is okay, it also doesn't get you closer to him. So it puts pressure on you in a different way to in a 2D game. While it does make you need to approach, how you take that approach is much less risky than in a 2D game so the strategy doesn't feel as firm and obvious as it would in something like street fighter. Think of it this way, zoning is the act of keeping away. Ryu fireball doesn't do a good job of keeping you away since you can jump over it easily. It's not intended to keep you away, it's intended to make you approach, the opposite thing. Meanwhile, Dhalsim can kick you out of the air or kick you on the floor, no matter where you are on screen Dhalsim can kick you. And if he hits you you get sent even further back and need to block even more kicks. Not to mention take damage. Every single thing he does is zoning, it's all keeping away, so he's a zoner.

[@DopeTracksOnly]

thought the bully was the sort of character who "toys" with the opponent, often not appearing serious or using a fraction of his power. Would love to see a video on that, even if thinking about it its more of a personality thing than an archetype

[@DarumaFGC]

This is part of conditioning, there's a certain kind of performance you can put on with a mixture of good reads and doing the minimum necessary to give off this sort of air. Daigo Vs Gamerbee 2013 is a great example for that. He uses light DPs on nothing after knockdown not just for meaty timings but because it puts more weight on the idea that he's done so many DPs that surely the next attack won't also be one. It's a taunt as much as it's a setup.

[@AdamSmasherReal]

Honestly I wouldn't categorize sagat into the archetype you're describing. maybe Bison tho.

[@DarumaFGC]

Bison plays a much more offensive game with mixups built into many of his moves, while Sagat isn't particularly pressure-led and can often go a full round without a proper knockdown. I came up with the archetype on the impetus that we don't really have a category for sagat, even though clearly he's not a shoto and there's many other characters that play like him. So I decided to chisel one out.

[@gspandem1204]

Nice Rank10YGO reference with the series name

[@DarumaFGC]

I didn't know until I got like 4 comments about it 😭 Should I check it out?

[@dizzynarutofan100]

It's fun trying to put archetypes on smash ultimate characters. I can't really think of one that fits well, only sort of. Incin, Wii Fit, Ganon, Even Snake all have some of the qualities you've listed.

[@DarumaFGC]

Smash works so strangely for archetypes. It's probably for the best to use its own separate set of names because it's so different. Or else you end up with weird fiascos like Hbox calling Kazuya a shoto

[@elfascisto6549]

There's no need to overcomplicate the archetypes. We got all-rounders, zoners, grapplers and mid-rangers and that's good enough. Not trying to rain on your parade here, but if you make 900+ archetypes for fighting game characters no character will ever feel special again and those archetypes will become highly specific and blend in with each other.

[@greenshark45]

When I would play SFV I always considered Bison a bully character as well. I always had trouble with his matchup as Balrog

[@someaccount5200]

You should look at the Oppressive archetype

[@DarumaFGC]

Got some similar stuff in the works!

[@freelancedancepants]

This feels like Goldlewis, just replace command normals with Behemoth Typhoons.

[@DarumaFGC]

A lot of people in the comments agree, I'm willing to too. Skyfish only exists to punish zoning so goldlewis can buy his way in to just swing his coffin relentlessly.

[@shaghilathar3588]

Marduk has been summoned by this video

[@katzuma7641]

Got me thinking it’s a rank10ygo video with that title

[@DarumaFGC]

Not quite!

[@chadwyckmarte1061]

I'd like to ask; what do you think separates a character like Blanka or Bison for example from your average bully? Characters with fast threatening engagement tools that force the opponent to act passively in neutral and thus allow them to act freely and start their respective game plans. I want to say that characters like Bison and Blanka use bully-esque tools as a means to an end, because what they really want is to rush down- whereas for true bully characters the suffocating neutral IS the endgame, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[@DarumaFGC]

To some very lame degree part of the answer is balance. Bisons mixups are incredibly potent and they're baked into his specials, he has like top 5 SFV offense and top 5 defence. He has a pretty sprawling movelist with lots of utility, but notably a lot of it directly contributes to extremely aggressive mixups, which the rest of these guys don't really do to the same extent. If he had less moves, it'd be easier to say what specifically he fell into as an archetype, but he's just so good at half screen approach and getting close and pressuring observably is his goal, at least in SFV. Earlier incarnations are closer to something approximating a bully, but I still don't think you'd look at him and say yeah, he plays the same game Sagat does. It's less that he's trying to stuff the opponents normals when they come out and more that he is trying to run his own offense. Boss characters do tend toward this issue though, Rugal has 3 fullscreen projectiles, a projectile reflect, dp, teleport, and more. They weren't really designed in the first place to have a playstyle, and instead to win. For blanka though it's a lot more fun to postulate what archetype he is, and the main reason it's hard to put him in one is because his modern incarnations are really weak. He can't bully in sfiv and SFV even if thats his stated goal, but he also can't Rushdown, grab (lol), turtle, etc. So let's just ignore how weak his kit is and look at stronger incarnations of him. In early versions of SF2 he's a stout mid tier. His lightning calls out pretty much any non projectile attack, you can look at it as a parry for physical attacks, his ball travels a good range, fast and puts him at a safe-ish distance to continue his gameplan, and his huge fast normals with good recovery make approach really difficult to attempt. He's never trying to mix you up, all his attacks are pure interruption, I'd say pretty much certainly that he is a bully. But they've very purposefully made him terrible lately, one thing I said in the video defines a bully, is these big normals that cover important areas of the screen and have good enough startup and recovery that punishing them is difficult at their optimal range, and I think because that has been removed from blanka, this weakness in frame data becomes a weakness in gameplan, and his modern incarnation has almost "lost" an archetype. Which I do think terrible frame data can do, since it changes the way the character has to play the game.