ARE ALL MINIATURE WARGAMES CONFUSING TO BEGINNERS? - BlackJack Clips

ARE ALL MINIATURE WARGAMES CONFUSING TO BEGINNERS? - BlackJack Clips
You can now support the channel through Patreon - / blackjacklegacy
You can now buy BlackJack Legacy Merchandise - bit.ly/2K8OsqB
You can also support the BlackJack Legacy channel by shopping at Amazon through this link. It costs you nothing but the channel makes a small commission which helps keep the new games coming!
UK - amzn.to/30rY4qR
Why not try Audible? amzn.to/2hOuSGL
Why not join the Blackjack Legacy Facebook Group - / 668812233287910

[@verathorn1556]

i have always been a proponent of an idea that all wargame mini boxes should include a paper playmat, simplified rules, and a simple scenario for what is in the box. so new player could just buy what they want and immediately be able to test a game outand see what they like.

[@BlackJackLegacy]

I agree - a starter box without some way to ease you into playing is still a barrier, even if it’s a lower barrier.

[@colinmelchior]

Terrain too. Even if its just stickers to turn a kleenex box into a bunker or farm house.

[@OffTheShelfGameReviews]

My friend, you so truly deserve so many more views. Your production, lighting, editing, and sound quality are fantastic. Always a pleasure to watch, keep up the great work.

[@mordecaitoth6703]

My favourite beginner friendly game system is Reign in Hell because it has a simple ruleset and it includes an easy to follow example for how the game is played which is great for new players, but it is miniature agnostic which some new players enjoy but for some it makes the game completely inaccessible. For what it is worth I like to recommend the Abyssal Warband Set and Nightstalker Warband Set by Mantic (which can easily be found for less than £25 each) and combined with the rulebook you'll have a nice little £50-£60 starter set.

[@dankennedy7549]

I think it's a good point you make. I like the idea of the rules set for bolt action with the dice bag activations but I wouldn't have a clue where to begin with an army

[@moosemoosington]

I definitely think anyone starting out in tabletop gaming will feel the same. We rely on our “Pathfinders”, gaming community and KZbin videos to help us understand what the hell we need to do to play games.

[@alistaircornwall1162]

Loved this video and you capture alot of how it really feels for new players. I got into the hobby with SW Legion and that game at least is easy to understand with regards which models go with which, if you understand the universe to start off with. I have then looked and branched out into other games and it's just not that clear to understand. The example for me is For Honor which my LFGS has a community for and they are trying to get more people into, I picked up the starter pack (which was cheap and doesn't come with an army which makes the entry cheaper and up to you), then I need to make my army. This is when my brain melted, I understand that era but it's not clear cut.

[@HobbyDad251]

I remember first getting into minis and if I hadn't had a friend to show me the ropes of building and painting I would have been lost. I think the Deadzone 3rd Ed starter box is probably the best intro set I've seen in my time. But even then, you need a bunch of other gear to get going like glue and sprue snips. As you said, game companies really rely on the experienced person helping people into the hobby. Here's hoping we see more focus on helping out that total beginner.

[@evanlindsey1100]

My first wargame was Warmachine mk1. The combat mechanics were easy enough to pick up, but I had to use a cheat sheet to help me remember the steps one had to go through to complete a turn. (I had health issues at the time). Once I had that down, I was solid. I think that I did try some games after that, aside from Warhammer Fantasy, I didn't have any trouble learning any of those. But most games could use a simplified sheet to explain the basics.

[@MustContainMinis]

I hear you 100% on things being confusing for new people to the hobby. For Bolt Action, you have to buy the army that you like and go from there. Easy Army for Bolt Action helps a lot to know how to piece an army together - especially if you don’t have the rules or army books. There are tons of games out there. Bolt Action is my favourite for the same reason you mentioned. It is a game while other titles try to be more of a simulation. Once you look past WW2, there are so many places to go in Historical gaming. Osprey books can help a lot too with historical background information.

[@AresGodofWargames]

Hi! I´ve been playing Bolt Action for a while now and the Main Rulebook has a force selection section, that and the book "Armies of..." from your nation are what most people do lists under, so just with those or even with the main selectors that are in the rulebook you will be able to play against anybody on any store. Regarding your video, I agree fully, the industry is very beginner un-friendly, unlike any tcg or ccg that have a million tutorials (many from wizards themselves).

[@squallgoku777]

I found games with a really heavy meta like Warmachine where in the local scene the majority of players play the S class metas and nothing below that. Being fresh into the system and not familiar with the metas made things very difficult - 40k is a bit easier, there is still a meta but other things are still useful.

[@garyjenson8262]

Yes Andy as I'm new to the hobby I can attest to wargames being very opaque not just historicals. At first blush it seems historicals provide a wonderful opportunity for rules lawyers. Maybe we can get them all out of our games and into historicals.😉

[@PatGilliland]

Look into the Two Fat Lardies games - very anti-rules lawyer.

[@wyrdhunter]

If you ever find a way to get rid of "Well, actually..." historical gamers swinging their unsolicited, inane details around to prove their "cred", let me know. :D

[@lincolnwillis3345]

Man, I can't tell you how right you are. I've tried to get into several tabletop games and, basically, if there isn't a KZbin totourial on n the basics I just can't figure it out. Infinity seems to be the worst at this. Here's your models! In little baggies without instructions. Here's a time to read to get into the just the basics. The barrier of entry is so high on some of these games. Especially trying to learn with kids or just a couple people. Thanks for the video

[@feralgamersincrpg]

Bolt Action is amazing, and the minis are pretty good especially if you want to divert into Konflict 47 and the minis are compatible.

[@feralgamersincrpg]

You can easily play Bolt Action historically if that is what you want to do, but the beauty is that if you just want to buy a army starter box you can and battle your mates army.

[@feralgamersincrpg]

There is a sheet in each army box that has a numbered list that corresponds with the numbers on the sprues

[@wutebear9656]

I came back to Magic the Gathering in summer of 2010. It was really easy to pick the game up after quitting playing and collecting back in 1997. Been buying and playing since 2010, slowed down dramatically. I can introduce the game and teach it in an evening over beers. I do not feel the same way about Warhammer and mini-gaming, but I do have to travel 30 min or more for a shop that has beginner nights, where as with MTG I have a neighborhood crew of dads. I have definitely bought more 40k this year than MTG (mostly just bought the 40k MTG Commander decks). I've got plenty of plastic to keep me busy, but I'll likely not get to a store to play 40k till sometime next Spring. I've got a ton else going on, but I love building and painting the Dark Angels I've collected and look forward to building and painting the little bit of Chaos Space Marines I've purchased. You are correct, there are way too many MTG product lines each year as compared to a decade ago.

[@heleti0000]

Having recently been forced to retire (medical reasons), I decided to get back into wargaming. Arriving at my local GW hobbyshop, I watched a game of 40k in progress and was totally put off / confused / bored. The “bloatware” of Rules, Codexes, Supplements etc etc all being constantly referred to and argued over was mind blowing. Awesome books to flick through and read but completely “anti” having a fun time while playing. So, now playing just with friends using OPR and our own adapted, simple rules, we are having so much fun using GW miniatures, but have thrown their rules and Codexes away. I can only imagine how someone new to the hobby would think after watching (or even trying to play) a proper game. That’s where the Imperium Magazine and it’s like can help - a few “free” models and paints and some VERY SIMPLE rules and short scenarios would get someone interested and easily learn how to play a basic, simple to understand game. Love your sensible and informative channel 👍

[@lefthandedpanzerfaust6583]

I like these Clips Andy. I think the way to get into historical gaming is pick an Army you are interested in, then the key part is ignore the gate keepers / grognards. Start with 28mm as its the most common size of minis and play something simple and easy like BA.

[@Mark-nh2hs]

Flames of War do different era's of WW2. Also do different periods of modern wars Vietnam being popular. I remember when I first walked into GW as a youngster I had no idea what to collect as an army (I was more WHfantasy). So I bought several different units from different armies. Started to read WD and fell in love with Skaven, and Chaos - more Tzeentch and Dark Elves. So my pocket money was divided up between them lol, unless I was near completion of a unit I would focus on them. Not the best way but I ended up with multiple different armies and playing 2000 points back in the 90s you didn't need loads of units to make a 2000 point army - when I left wargaming and came back to it just after the final WHF starter set (Skaven Vs High Elf) a 2000 point army was the size of a 5000 point army during the 90s - roughly. That's Bloat. I've heard 40k has gone the same way over recent years compared to back in in the good Ole Days 🤣🤣🤣. That's why Skirmish wargames are so popular now you can use existing minis in your collection, and to buy new fractions it's a complete set or group - which is more productive cost wise.

[@dkroondijk]

I would say the "historical accuracy" issue is only an issue if you play with people who care about that. My group never cared about this so we would mix units from the various time periods and and regiments. I get why a lot of historical wargamers want to stay 100% true to the actual events as they happened, but we're more just looking to have a good time playing games in a WWII setting. If you do want to stay true to the history and there is a particular campaign you're interested in you could look at the campaign books as well to get a sense for what units you would want to get. Edit: I just realized you touched on both of these points but anyway! :)

[@krjr1982]

You make some great points in this video. I believe as wargamers and hobbyists with an understanding of these game systems, we automatically expect other people in the hobby to understand everything about these games. It must be a daunting prospect for new players, whether they have an knowledge of tabletop games or not, to even attempt to get in to these new systems. Especially with all of the diehards telling you which system/manufacturer is better. Also I'd happily help you learn Magic the Gathering, fella! 😂

[@leesweeney8879]

I like Chain of Command.

[@kirinpaints1797]

I’ve been saying this since I got into tabletop gaming 5 years ago - the problem with most tabletop gaming is the lack of good instructional design. It’s like this industry has never employed a decent instructional designer before.

[@oldmanofthemountains3388]

I've played a few different wargames and I can tell you, yes, it WAS that confusing when I first picked up Infinity. It's very thematic but it's a bit confusing without knowing the background.

[@anegativeatheist-9327]

Yes. This is the very first barrier. Second is price. A potential gamer can easily invest 10 minutes with a video game system and have a slight understanding. Even buying a console or PC and a game you can easily get in way under $500 and even be top tier setup for console under $1000. Wargames have a price problem, an ease of entry problem, and an exposure problem. Play grey if you want, 3D print if you want, swap rules and models around. None of it matters unless we are out in our FLGs and being open with people.

[@thegreatjafar512]

I’m feeling this with 40k at the minute. I last played around 2015 in 7th edition. I’m trying to get back into 40k with 9th and I’m feeling a bit bamboozled. It may be that it’s more difficult to get my head around everything now as personal circumstances have changed and having more responsibility means I don’t have the same time I once did to dedicate to learning rules etc. I’ve had a few people tell me 8th and 9th edition are more straight forward than older editions but it doesn’t feel that way haha.

[@PatGilliland]

As a massive Chain of Command fan, I would suggest Bolt Action, Eastern Front (Russians and Germans) Mid to late war. This will give you all the classic tanks like the T-34, Panther and Tiger and give you the option of turning your Germans west to fight Brits, Americans or Canadians in Normandy. The real benefit is that nearly all of the kit you buy will be usable with a huge range of other rules if you decide to branch put. And unlike Squats - Shermans will never get ret-conned out of the lore. Warlord is not quite as pricey as GW but they are certainly at the higher end price wise (but not quality) when compared to the myriad of other manufacturers out there. There are other scales out there worth looking at later like 6mm - fantastic for the sweep of the western Desert or 15mm - Flames of War for larger actions and true scale for Chain of Command, but you won't go far wrong with 28mm. I will take a minor exception to your comments about the background knowledge needed, yes it's a bit of a pain coming into it new but it is no worse than sorting out your Astartes from your Space Wolves in fact it is easier because you can look online or go down to your library (That's a building with books inside) and borrow the source material you need. No Codices or splat books to buy every 6 months. Anyways, welcome, we'll make a grognard out of you yet.

[@Balyrion]

I agree getting started in wargaming in general is very intimidating and confusing. I actually picked up the bolt action band of brothers starter since my wife had expressed interest in trying it and I will say the assembly process was less intuitive than I had hoped. I cannot imagine someone with no background in war gaming trying to deal with doing that, plus everything else that goes with it.

[@BlackJackLegacy]

I think we’ve all just become so used to our hobby we forget what it’s like to be new to it all.

[@ageoftheatom154]

I think factionless games like Marvel Crises Protocol help a lot when it comes to onboarding new people. I also thought that the rules in the Infinity starter box did a great job of slowly layering in game mechanics as you played through a series of 5 or 6 short games. The problem there was the jump from that little pamphlet to the full 200 page rulebook was way too overwhelming. I guess that's why they made Code One.

[@AndrewSmith-fd3fi]

Interesting topic, answer is probably yes, but hopefully newbies can work through that, it also depends its probably easier for someone having played say Imperail Assault essentialy a cross between boardgame and dungeon delver to then pick up and play Legion starter box. The other personal point you raised, is it depends what your idea of a WW2 wargame is, have you looked at Flames of War for instance which is a 15mm and few figures on a base or 'o' group. If your looking for a WW2 themed game Bolt Action is perfect fine place to start mo idea why there is anti Warlord sentiment, Flames would be another one as both do easy to get you rolling starter boxes. After that, if you get a feel for WW2 Pendreken's Blitzkrieg Commander, TFL Chain of Command, 'O' Group, Rapid Fire, Plastic Soldier Company Battlegroup, hue range of options depending what you fancy.

[@cptlazyjack]

Warlord Games have amazing customer service and their range of products has introduced me to a lot more of historical games that I never thought of trying.

[@DarkAutumnScribe]

Bolt Action I've been interested in trying. As far as World War II goes, I've pretty much played Flames of War. Love to see you do some stuff with that!

[@BlackJackLegacy]

The scale of Flames of War is a little small for my tastes but I’ve heard it’s a good game.

[@PatGilliland]

@@BlackJackLegacy Wall to wall tanks across the table if you try to min max it. ;)

[@marcjohnson5991]

Harking back to when I first encountered historical wargaming, I got the sense that what some folks wanted from those games was different to what folks playing 40k etc wanted Whilst they wanted to have fun, things like accuracy, detail and quality of rules were more significant and many of the rules sets tended to be miniature agnostic. I think the reaction you got from some folks to bolt action is that it is a historical wargame with much of the characteristics of more fantastical games.

[@barrythebassplayer]

Another great video Andy. You brought up an interesting point. Not everyone has the historical context. Having been a major history buff from a very young age, I guess I never considered that aspect. There are definitely lots of things I don’t know and it pushes me to do additional research. I guess we’re fortunate to live in a time now where the information (in some form or another) is just a muse click away. Although I’m a book geek and have loads of reference material. Even so, it can be a real learning curve, to the point of being just flat confusing.

[@BlackJackLegacy]

Knowing where to start to learn enough to get started can even be an issue.

[@markedwards2607]

This video highlights what me and friend were like a few weeks ago. We decided to try a historic system (flames of war) for a change of pace to our normal fantasy or sci fi games. Neither me or my mate are history buffs, so the uniqueness of the different stages of the war were lost on us. We just grabbed a starter set and plan on going to demo day at our local club once we’ve played a few games. Hopefully some there can point us in the right direction for expanding our collection.

[@andrewdavies6355]

I recently got an infinity starter set. Utterly bonkers and incomprehensible. They have set up code one….. but nobody plays that.

[@oldmanofthemountains3388]

When I want to play an Historical Wargame, I want to play a wargame first, with the historic theme being secondary.

[@markwatson8714]

I actually suspect it might be harder for someone coming from the fantasy/sci-fi side of things into historicals than it would be for a newbie, because you're carrying preconceptions based on your experience with those games. When it comes to historicals there's not really a question of 'what works with what'. If you're interested in historical verisimilitude you generally pick an army or regiment and put together a list representing that. If not, you can put together just about anything - German Panzers with British Airborne, fine. Maybe they liberated them from the Germans or maybe we're playing a what if scenario where Britain allied with Germany against the Soviets. Generally speaking, with historical the rules primarily exist to explain how units interact on the tabletop; it's left up to the players to decide what units they're putting on the tabletop (in theory you discuss with your opponent beforehand who's playing what; in practice when it comes to pick up games there's inevitably going to be occasions where your opponent brought his Americans and you have your British and the choice is to either play each other or not play at all).

[@WillCalwell]

Forbidden Psalm Last War is a great World War game.

[@Morhgoz]

Well, people who founded Warlord were former GW staff, so the allecory of yours is kind of correct...

[@justincredibad7069]

Maybe a PnP basic rules version of the game? Not so far as hex and counters, but just something to get them to try to game and be hungry for more.

[@SlamDuncify]

Hey Andy, the thing that's missing is the history! If you watch some of the documentary series out there about WWII you will start to sort out the time periods and the theatres. For WWII you really can't go wrong with Warlord for a beginner they spotlight theatres and armies in their books they teach you the weapons and the reason a certain force was equipped with a specific weapon. For a Historical wargamer the interesting bit is not just the gear a nation carried into battle, but also the combat doctrine that nations military fights under and the depth this adds. This is a really interesting subject and historical wargaming is waaaaay more approachable now. You will find your history snobs (even in bolt action) that want to quiz you on your knowledge. However, start simple pick a force you like and start with a team or two and build from there. All those details your looking for have been documented endlessly and a lot of it is available for next to nothing. I hope this helps if you ever want any other advice hit me up I am happy to point you in the right direction. Believe it or not I feel the same way about napoleonics, it's a great time period but all the different uniforms and colors and nations its all dizzying. I do appreciate the challenge.

[@robertthurman9866]

I asked a game store owner why he was pushing Bolt Action as a WW II game. He pointed to the back of the store where there were 4 big shelves of buildings that were used for Warhammer games. Bolt Action uses the same scale so everyone can use the donated terrain and not have to buy their own. Also larger scale miniatures cost more than smaller scale minis, as well as taking up more room requiring larger tables. So a lot of people want smaller scale to use a smaller dining room table.

[@TheTobaccoman]

Yeah it’s pretty confusing , even with the more well known companies. Like for instance you can play bolt action as historical accurate battles and campaigns or as a over all game. Even with warhammer it’s also super confusing right now as the rules change are amended and how many books their rules are spread through. War games are not good for beginners unless you have knowledgeable friends to kind of show you the ropes. Infinity is super confusing when it comes to remembering all the small details of weapons and special rules etc etc it’s absolutely confusing for a new player, speaking from experience. I’d say malifaux isn’t as confusing to get the army but game play is with all the victory conditions and the models are a bit fiddly to make but the game rules are laid out well enough per mode. War gaming is much better with vets to help show the way for sure.

[@benclarkson6066]

I do feel like Mantic Games not including instructions with their products might be a barrier to absolute beginners which is a shame because their games are brilliant. I would've found it a lot harder to get into Deadzone if I didn't have somebody show me how to do it.

[@bopaintsminis]

Yes, I have bought minis, but never played a game, because none of them are for beginers. Skirmish games maybe.

[@wyrdhunter]

"I never could say anything in twenty words or less..." I have to disagree. As an Omni-gamer I own a buttload of systems and purchase a good many starter boxes to test games out. The test of is this a decent starter box isn't can *I* understand it and get the feel for the game, but can my wife who hates reading rules and rulebooks with the passion of a 100 exploding suns get the gist of it by reading the included rules, and, if needed, assemble the included figures. Are the starter rules small and simple enough for her to get through without having to ask me to explain things? For many starters the answer is yes. (Using kids as a litmus test also works.) This is speaking of sci-fi and fantasy only; historicals are a different beast (see way below). Ones that do it well include the Infinity Code One 2-player starter boxes which include everything you need aside from glue (a playmat, terrain, tokens, dice, rulers, templates, silhouettes, etc.). They layer on concepts one scenario at a time, tell you which models to build, and inform you what you're guys are called. Next scenario adds another model, a new rule, and what they are called. You build what you need one scenario at a time and when done have an army completed. Infinity does use foreign names for units for foreign factions but being unable to pronounce or remember them...no offense, but that's an Anglo problem. (Much of the world is bilingual because they also learn English. English speaking nations, not so much with that. Hell, over here in the US people don't even realize that there is no official language, just common ones.) We also found most of the Mantic games' 2-player starters to also be easy. Their rules are fairly simple and straight forward. Are they lacking model building guides? Many are. Do people completely unfamiliar to wargaming just make what looks cool and not really care if it's technically right? Yes, they do. If veterans give them shit for not having the right parts, is that a veteran (gatekeeping) problem? Yes, it is. Can you teach them once they're into the game and want more of it? Yes, you can. (This same phenomenon of "button counting" is what pushes new people away from historicals. Damned, Armchair Military Historians, swinging their big books around.) Battletech is also a great example. Assembled figures, expanding rules, battlemat, dice. You start simple and can go deeper if you want or stay at the starter rules you want. Other 2-player starters from bigger IP games (Marvel Crisis Protocol, the Star Wars games, even Batman) do a decent job with components (though never enough dice for...reasons) and learning rules. Is Warhammer 9th easy for complete novices? I can't see how anyone can say they are with a straight face. 40Ks rules are...dense. My wife played 40K in 3rd and 4th edition and she couldn't keep up with strategems, secondaries, command points, ad nauseum without massive brain burn. The Combat Patrol boxes come with no rules, dice, cards, and cost as much as some other 2-player starter sets. To be honest, though many crap on it, 1st ed Kill Team was a good introduction system. Buy one box of whatever unit looks cool to you and you can play. Tabletop Minions did a great series on cheap (mostly, 1 box) forces for Kill Team 1Ed. I can't think of any others that are really good, to be honest. Many give you a rules-only, smaller book but no learning campaign or system, or lack needed components. Now, historicals... In 30 years of wargaming I have never met someone who went cold into historicals without being taught by an experienced gamer, or being into history themselves. Saying "I want to learn a historical wargame" is like saying "I want to learn a language"; specificity is needed. The two paths I've seen are mentored by another in a system they know or pick a time of history, read some books (or Wikipedia) on that time period, look for something that covers that time period. And sadly asking online "what's a good game for x?" is the same as asking "what's a good rpg to model Y?" People will give you their favorites regardless of how well they fit what you're asking about. Many historical gamers also have this "the more obscure, the better it is" creed for game systems. If a WWII starter is *really* needed, Bolt Action might be the best. You get some guys, some dice, some rules, and no real TOE requirements. Do you just want to have soldier men go "rat-a-tat" and maybe a tank going "pew pew" regardless of actual historical records? Bolt Action would serve best. But in general I've not seen any historical starter for newbie off the street players.

[@Drogwin]

Hey, I can't make it to the live streams any more, quite sad. Will I'm quite new to the hobby, and the step from wanting to get into to buy your first set is hard. Especially if you live somewhere with nothing than one warhammer club within 50-100km range. And if you really don't want to play warhammer. That's why I starter deadzone with a few friends. Quite easy rules, buy what you like as minis and play it. But hell was I frustrated putting these minis together. No instructions, multipart minis with not really any hint what to place together and my god these forge fathers... I hate the building and having no idea how to build my Gcps that it makes sense is what made them sit on my shelf in there box for the last 2 years. It is hard to get into the hobby and most times it is cause there are not many companies that make pr and good "how to begin" products like instructions, videos etc. Sorry for my rusty English and greetings from Germany

[@Hurricanelive]

The models and the game that have to be appealing with easy means to dumb down bloated BS filler rules to the point I can get friends into it inside of an hour I'm gold. But yeah, we would rather watch one another play a PC game or listen to rock and just BS on about life.

[@robertthurman9866]

Are miniature cames confusing to begonners, YES! Think about it, you see someone playing a mini game. The pull out a ruler and mover their units. "OK , these guys get a +1 for their weapons and they also have heavy armor so it's a -1 for damage to them." The guys do a quick 4 dice rolls assign damage and then the other guy does the same. Both players move withing 5-6 minutes and just keep manouvering and attacking. Then you buy a starter set and look at the rules. WTF! 3 pages describing how to move normally, a page each for 4 different kinds of terrain, 3 pages for line of sight, 6 pages on weapons, 2 pages on armor and then you look at the pile of sprues and think about assembling and painting them. Is this even the same game you watched? So you watch youtube videos and see the same thing demonstrated 5 different ways and are now even more confused. You either go back to the store and hang out with the guys playing the game and get them to teach you, you put the stuff in the back of the closet and play a video game.