Are Any 11 Speed Drivers Better than a Wraith?

[@stefandomagalski3722]

Kastaplast! Älva!

[@jdd880]

Latitude 64 Flow is a similar flight to a Wraith as well, with a little more glide.

[@roulernbleu4532]

Flow is awesome 😎👍

[@discgolfswag]

Awesome video. Thanks so much for allowing us to showcase our full color capabilities!

[@Alliat6364]

That disc print looks super crisp! I’m overseas so I probably won’t be a regular customer but I now know where too look. Love that company name too! 🤣

[@discgolfswag]

@@Alliat6364 thanks for the kind words our international shipping is comparatively low. Hope to work with you in the future!

[@eoghana315]

The best thing about Wraiths is you can find a good used one for like $8 at a decent shop. And thanks to Innova's, ahem, consistency you can get a beefy Wraith all the way to Mamba flippy Wraith. My experience with Zeniths, Photons, Waves etc is that when they're board flat they're way more overstable than domey ones. Really glad to see the Curl on here, it is a great substitute for a seasoned, bomber Wraith. The Clash Vanilla belongs in the Wraith category too.

[@evanpeace8806]

TeeRex was one of my first discs back in 06 and I loved it! I didn’t know the Czar was the old TeeRex mold, thanks for that info!

[@mikethomas5451]

It’s that kind of info that is really appreciated.

[@JoseGarcia-wt4gn]

Would have loved to see a Trace on that lineup. I feel like it’s the same mold as the longhorn but they are usually less OS

[@tinncan]

Newer trace has been pretty awesome for me. Mini hyzer flips up straight forever, then a little push fade at the end. Always ends up farther than I thought it would.

[@BryceRogers_]

I have a cosmic neutron that I've used in the Wraith slot for 2+ years. It functions as a stable Star Wraith that takes way longer to beat in.

[@WildeyeFreecloud]

My Trace is Wraith-y but with a tighter path. Less turn, less fade, just less lateral movement in general. It's something I feel like I can put on a rope more easily than my Wraith. I bag both.

[@McSlobo]

My Trace has higher PLH than my old PFN Teerex which was the Czar in this video. My Trace is not quite as domy so it's not that ridiculously OS as the Teerex but heck, my Trace is beefy. No glide at all, it's a monster. I've got many Wraiths to compare to and... no. But I have different types of Wraiths too from PFN to new and they're all over the place too.

[@stephencarmickle]

I bought 2 traces hoping they would be a straighter wraith and both are way more overstable than my wraiths. The trail fits what I was looking for much better, it is rated as a 10 speed but has the same rim width as a wraith 2.1cm

[@GatorTomboy]

Was really cool to meet you at Idlewild! Both you and Caleb. Appreciate the the new patch for my bag!

[@johndavies1341]

Innova Mystere is a great 11 speed disc that's often overlooked. Also the Streamline Jet is a little known gem! It has almost no fade despite the 2 rating and gives easy distance. The problem with the Grace is that it's only available in max weights. Westside Sword is a great alternative to the Grace, available in VIP AIR for lighter weight.

[@brianmcfarland6548]

Prodigy has updated the H3v2 flight numbers to be 10 5 -1 1. They’ve updated a lot of their lineup

[@ryanclements8099]

The 11 speed slot in my bag, in general, is one of my favorites - I bag both a Wave and an Alva for very specific wind conditions. I've never quite been able to love the Wraith like so many do, but I do think the wide appeal of manufacturers' flagship 12 speeds (and the $$ invested in getting them into pros bags) make discs like the Wraith more of IYKYK type discs.

[@jamesfarabaugh6669]

My go-to distance is the 11-speed g-blend Maya (no, I'm not a power thrower by any means). If I manage to get some snap and good nose angle, thrown flat/some hyzer it gets good turn and finish, and with some anny it'll hold the turn. But we're talking 275-300ft throws. YMMV. That Ragnarok looks enticing. I wonder how it compares to my Maya.

[@craigstambaugh]

The Fission Photon was really interesting. I'm not a power thrower by any stretch, and honestly, 11 speed is really probably a notch above what I should be throwing, but I've been throwing a Neutron Photon and, while it's definitely overstable, it doesn't seem to have nearly the amount of stability that you guys saw in the Fission version.

[@zakstroup]

I thought the same thing when he threw it, especially in Fission plastic.

[@korologosmichael0]

I am a noodle arm, nothing compared to this guy and I get a nice flip up and flex out of my similarly weighted photon. My problem with these guys' videos are the inconsistencies in the throws. Run that throw again if it seems weird...

[@MichaelBrodbeck]

No MVP Wave? Orbital?

[@alanlundberg4534]

I recently purchased a 138g Blizzard Champion Wraith. I was looking for an over-stable driver that would float. It absolutely floated (unintentionally), and I was amazed that such a light disc could have the stability of a Wraith. I am very pleased with it.

[@MasterDarkPoi]

I threw a dx mamba for a long time. when my arm speed increased I switched to Gstar mamba and it worked. I got to keep my mamba in my bag (which is the best hand feel for me) without having to switch my form. I agree 100% you've got to get out there and do the field work yourself. That's the only way to figure out what's best for you. Great video as always bud!

[@mikethomas5451]

Good to interact with you at Idlewild, and thanks. I thing I forgot to specifically say was your slight ‘character’ of the personality in these videos really does ‘work.’ You had a nice set up and I hope you made a sack full of cash, or, at least a few dollars. 😉

[@ThomasSteed]

I'm just gonna put this out there. I've got a lonestar tumble weed, and I'm super impressed with this disc. I really like it over my sidewinder and honestly any of the discs ive got with the same turn/fade numbers. I think I'll definitely be bagging a curl next.

[@Scrumdawgrizzillionaire]

My buddy loves his tumbleweed

[@todward3295]

I’ve been really enjoying the jet from streamline it’s slightly more understable wave which I also love

[@julianseyal]

The new trail has same rim size. Is a money beat in wraith out the box. One of best disc drop of year.

[@kylegiovannini7200]

Definitely missed out on the Dynamic Discs Sergeant. Our best hybrid driver for sure!

[@rhino22186]

I was looking for comments to mention this!

[@Alliat6364]

The glow Curl I got in a mystery booster from you guys at Six Sided is the only one occupying this slot in my bag. I definitely need to show it some more love after my arm speed increased. That flight looks amazing!

[@LukeHammer41]

I’d love it if you guys would review all discs with a positive turn number.

[@dennisblack6042]

My Grace and new Drive are exactly the same as well. Like them both. Great feeling plastics.

[@dustinroberson1865]

It looked like the photon was released on much more of a hyzer than the rest. My favorite wraith like disc used to be the wraith, until I got a stock Grace. The extra glide seems to push the disc a little further and makes it seem more effortless for me to hit my distance.

[@renfrog67]

The new run of fission Photon is a completely different flight than what you had. Not sure using lab seconds gives you the best results. I think some lab 2nds fly the same as stock but a fair amount of times they don't. Enjoyed the video, keep up the great work.

[@conman7127]

Caleb threw that fission photon with too much hyzer out the hand

[@McSlobo]

There's a lot of talk about Fission Photon stability online, so of course I ordered one to test it out. Probably goes to my MVP drivers pile, that has a note: there's better plastic, but at least it's the Silva signature one, so it'll look good in the pile.

[@connorstevenson6730]

I picked up a f2 domey star wraith and it was crazy stable. I'm getting that perfect slight turn then reliable fade flight out of my current 166g fission photon.

[@nickbonnett]

I bag a GStar Krait, and I love it! I don't have a huge arm, but it suits me well!

[@adielcerriteno1990]

Check out the west side discs Destiny. Flys like a wraith in a 14 speed. A local favorite

[@brosa1212]

Fission Photon / Wave ftw

[@Channelisunderconstruction]

A beat in wraith is more reliable then a beat in fission wave. I have both

[@cass3794]

One more I'd suggest is the Neptune Squid. Listed at 1/5/-1/2, I find it flies pretty neutral for my lower arm speed and it's gotten compared to a Wraith. A little less stable than my Star Shryke and much less stable than my GStar Destroyer.

[@DanGirardin]

I bought an XCOM Dawn a month ago. It's a 4 speed put and approach disc. I ended up liking it so much. I bought a second.

[@bakerby]

This is going to be so much fun to watch. 🎉🎉🎉

[@mahlikd8213]

Fission photons are incredible one of my favorite discs

[@ericjepson3765]

I got one of the patches! It was nice to see you down there.

[@murdoc4794]

Nice meeting you at Idlewild. Thanks for the recommendations.

[@mattrandall7836]

6-7/5/-2/1 leopard like discs. The wraith, ive had one in and out of ny bag since 07.

[@theoriginalbreadcrumb]

As a beginner who started late last year, the star wraith got me 104meters (Around 340ft), with a fairly solid nose up, so I at least love the disc.

[@discgolfwes]

I'm currently bagging a variety of DGA Rogues to cover the straight to undertsable Wraith slot, and Hypercanes for the overstable Wraith slot

[@aenglish6963]

Absolutely love my rogue!

[@aviserig]

I just started exploring a Rogue for my "less stable than a star Wraith slot" and it is insane. Consistent 425s with a long left turn to a straight fade. What have the other plastics done for you? I only have the ProLine one.

[@discgolfwes]

@@aviserig check out the Eliezra Midtlyng tour series run from this year! They're a touch more overstable than Proline and the plastic looks & feels amazing!

[@axlespelledwrong]

This vid just convinced me to pick up a fourth Moondust '24 Pro Worlds Wraith as another back up because they are the best flying Wraiths I have ever thrown and I have no idea how limited they will be in the future. Damn you, kind of.

[@ChrisPerry-lm7xe]

I would love to see you guys do a flight numbers don't matter comparing doscs to the envy!

[@trevzy91]

I've been throwing photons for a while now, love em, my beat in full weight fission photon will fly on a absolutely dead straight line for 380-400+ My non-fission photons flew like the one you have, I'm a flat/anhyzer thrower so I like the fight lol

[@connorstevenson6730]

I think there is a big difference in fission photons based on run. From what I've seen, the old Elaine King ones (which you seem to have based on the Lab 2nd stamp design) were supposedly super beef like you saw here. I have a newer run misprint, and it's got a really nice gentle turn to it. Perhaps worth testing.

[@thomasdonovan6124]

I love the Vass by kastaplast for my wraith slot

[@stephencarmickle]

Wraiths have been my favorite distance driver for quite awhile. Until the trail came along. Both work as perfects compliments to each other for me.

[@ns5543-y7g]

The Viking Discs Ragnarok has really weird flight numbers because Viking Discs usually stamps the "beginner throw" numbers on the disc. If you look up their flight chart the Ragnarok has power throw numbers of 11/5/-2/1. I actually wish more companies would have the difference noted like this.

[@TrevorWilliamsIsAgodDamnBoss]

Nice. I love my wraiths. Echo star with a poptop is my go too. I have a 163 one that I thought for sure was gonna have some flip to it, Nope lol. Flys like a fd but farther. 6500ft of elevation.

[@BigBig5]

Used to bag 5 Wraith's in different plastics and levels of wear. But now only bag 3 along with 1-2 Streamline Trace and 3 Infinite DIscs Czar's

[@mmdoof]

I'm disappointed you didn't test out the Sarah Tattar Trace. It's my favourite in the category because it has a lot less fade than than the Kristin Hokom Grace, making it more useful in the woods.

[@stuartschwenke6656]

🤣

[@mickster_t]

Viking Ragnarok is actually the same mold as the Yikun Jun, if you look at them side by side (as well as the Discmania Mentor). They didn't fly the same, but that's just because of Yikun's manufacturing tolerances. No two seem alike...

[@westytesty10]

Can you review the Pro Wraith? Mine is way over stable and I was hoping it was more stable

[@shredandenjoy7311]

Here's something I'd be interested in knowing.... Let's say you don't have the arm speed to turn a DX Wraith all the way over, but instead get the intended flight out of it (-1 turn, 2~ fade). Is the lower arm speed player still benefiting from the DX Wraith, or would they be better off going with a lower speed disc they can get the flight numbers out of? For me, I throw DX Destroyers and love them, but can't flip a star destroyer up to carry. I can throw an X plastic Nuke (best budget plastic out there), but I can't throw their premium nukes other than downhill and into a headwind!

[@JTBringe]

If it works for you, noone can tell you otherwise. There's no shame in having a lower arm speed and using a different plastic to compensate to get the flight you're looking for. Most of us will never be able to throw Halo Destroyers like Calvin, but we might be able to get something similar in a lower weight or with Star/Gstar.

[@stuartschwenke6656]

The lower weight in a premium plastic will help. I am 57 years old. I have a 158g Star Wraith, 162g Champion (FH only), 164g G-Star for Hyzer-Flip or for a slow turn when thrown flat. But, I have a 147g Star Wraith that absolutely turns over-roller disc for sure. Unfortunately I have had to spend some money finding that right weight range for my form and arm speed. For the Destroyer, I have a 150g Star that is MONEY. Also a 154g Sword that has the mid-turn and fade, and a 154g Nuke for those crazy headwind days.

[@flipflat4814]

The higher PLH Pro Wraith run from about 8 or 9 years ago are money. It's the run right after Innova permanently reformulated their "driver" Pro plastic, whatever year that was. I'm talking about the newer driver pro plastic, that seems very similar to Star plastic. Not the older Pro plastic that was usually chalky and not glossy like the modern Pro and Star plastic. The majority of Pro Wraiths have a lower PLH, just a little higher than the DX counterpart. Those are unstable for me👎🏻. A high PLH Pro Wraith👍🏻 is a thing of beauty, no joke! I remember when the Wraith was released late fall in 2005 that's when I bought one. I also remember everyone but me, ditching the Wraith mid summer 2007 for the Destroyer🤷🏻.

[@NickCarroll]

I think Garrett Gurthie is one of the big reasons the Wraith got popularized again in the last few years. The fact he uses it so much, and of course is one of the farthest fliers in the world, helps. 😁

[@Motorboatasaurus]

My only 11 speeds are a Champion Wraith and a Royal Grand Grace and they fly exactly the same for me, with tremendous beef. My only high speed driver I get consistent turn out of is the Blizzard Champion Teedevil gotta be my favorite driver and I only got for an experiment.

[@TheGiraffehead]

The Wraith is great, but it is too close to Destoyer clones to make my bag (even though I should be throwing it with my arm speed). I do throw the Curl in long tight corridors. It has a fantastic flight.

[@pinkperkelediscgolf]

Are there any other parents who recognized the dancing fruit music?? Another wonderful video guys!

[@DG_CT96]

Wraith's been a staple in my bag ever since I started. Gonna be a staple until I die! But... If I wasn't a Wraith "enthusiast," I would probably throw a Grace. Although, that Curl definitely looked very smooooth and has piqued my curiosity.

[@lorensilbaugh7584]

Greg, as always, great video, thank you. One small criticism, you left out the ALVA! I know it is very new, and Kasta can be a bit niche, & you tested out a LOT of discs already, but I feel it is a great disc and I am very curious to see how you & Caleb throw the disc. I feel it follows the numbers well, even though as a noodle arm I should not be throwing 11 speeds. What say ye?

[@wesfoto_vegas]

After watching this video, I looked at my collection of Wraiths that I've tried through the years. Different plastics, different weights. Definitely one of my all-time favorites. And, a question struck me. How do discs of the same plastic and same mold have such different weights? A "Pro" plastic Wraith that weighs 175g has to be manufactured differently somehow compared to a 160g "Pro" Wraith. My sample size isn't very large, but it seems like the top/plate is thinner on the lower weight disc. Not as easy to tell if the rim is thinner or thicker, etc.

[@ChrisGough-qe1xg]

I’ve been doing a lot of disc golf lately , I’ve found the best distance with an innova 14 speed, I throw backhanded with right arm, innova 13 speeds go severely left and is almost an automatic birdie (2) from 250 ish feet, I have used 12 and 11 speeds and found they don’t go as far more often than not same with 13. throwing 14 goes farthest for me just throw it hard as you can.

[@ChrisGough-qe1xg]

I own one 12 speed disc , an innova thrasher and it flys well, it also has the best feel in my hand of all discs I have

[@ChrisGough-qe1xg]

Actually it’s a discraft thrasher

[@KingDookies]

would love to see some gateway drivers. they don't have the 11 speed -1 3 for this vid, but they have some great stuff now!

[@jimmyjam-vc6rf]

My S-Line DD1 flies exactly the same as this video. Its green and I found it in some REALLY tall grass one day with no name/number. Usually I feel guilty taking it but a week before someone didn't return a halo wraith I lost that definitely had my phone number on it. So phone numbers don't matter? Anyway, thanks disc golf gods for an amazing replacement 🙏

[@danno1982]

Doomsday Cataclysm is great too! A bit flippier than a star wraith.

[@BATAngTABA]

My super beat in ESP Zeus (with tons of dome) flies like a Wraith more than my Streamline Trace (board flat).

[@quincyfry6569]

My longhorn and wraith both fly nearly the same for me... and i love em both!I fear the day my arm is strong enough to throw then properly and I have to relearn.

[@stuartschwenke6656]

Greg, please address the Rim Width issue. Wraith is a 2.1cm width while the Grace is a 2.2cm. Both are marketed as 11 speeds. And to your point...flight number have very little to do with anything.

[@calvinsmith447]

Czar is a blunt nosed wraith, and is my hyzer flip to s shape disc

[@davesage4931]

Innova DX plastic = an additional -1 to -2 turn. DX destroyer = fission time lapse. DX Teebird = royal brave. And so on.

[@gbiscuits]

Pro plastic wraith is my go-to

[@kristinabassett1036]

Recently found a Wraith and instantly became my go to driver. Fun fact: Zack Aneckstein is my son and got me into the sport!

[@elisabethe8055]

Why not the highest speed discs? Like Ballista and over. Thank you for sharing Greg!

[@TherealPapaDogP]

Surprised that the Krait didn’t make the list. It’s an underrated disc. At 11/5/-1/2, i preferred it over most wraiths.

[@kbarb3071]

Same! I always say that a Krait flies like a good wraith

[@paulyd4093]

I want to see the innova Lion thrown in different plastics. I have every plastic and it turns over and even burns in DX.

[@geneduclo2500]

My fave is the gran royal grace

[@angrybuzzy]

Innova Mamba is a fantastic 11 speed.

[@balake.plays.notes.]

I read in an infinite discs blog, the I-blend is actually recycled bits of Star plastic instead of pro

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Oooo interesting, that would explain the lower price as well.

[@Darthyeetrous]

​@@SixSidedDiscs came here to say this. It's like eco star but I heard I blend was special to infinite. Not sure about that but it seems like eco star to me.

[@haukionkannel]

Wraith is my way to go driver! Has been allmost my whole frisbeegolf ”career” So yeah, easy to see why other people also like it.

[@samdoss1736]

Bought a 167 fission defy just to try it out and it’s so much more overstable then my 170g wraith

[@74realworld]

For me, hands down. 165g MVP Zenith. I'm just comfortably with it.

[@putezboxu4144]

11 speed slot Maya, Vanilla, Wave, Wraith

[@krpi7685]

For people who want a driver with a less bulky rim, the Drive is a great example of an 11-speed that has a smaller (feeling) rim. I've felt/thrown several of the molds on this list and I don't recall any other making me think "hey, this rim really does feel smaller".

[@prattacaster]

Almost all Discraft discs have smaller than average rim sizes

[@stuartschwenke6656]

some of this feel is actually different rim widths for the same "speed" numbers.

[@scottgardner8126]

The fission photon was thrown on steeeeeep hyzer. I’ve thrown 5 fission photons and they are all flippy mcflippertons

[@jessehenderson836]

Somehow I always end up having at least 1 wraith in the bag over any other 11 speed. Currently it’s a pro wraith and it’s the most smooth distance there is. I’m not a huge fan of innova, but the wraith is just good and there’s no way around it.

[@10GritSandpaper]

Wish you had tested the MVP Wave. It’s a better Wraith comparison other mvp discs.

[@bobbybobman3073]

The wraith in dx I wish I knew just exactly how flippy they were. Cause my star destroyer is complete and utter beef. And dx wraith is a roller disc unless I can aim for the sky with a ton of hyzer.

[@Iliyena87]

My H3v2 is very stable, never on turn unless anny. My Ragnarök got lost sadly after like 15 throws, flew so good on a little hyzer-flip, the orange color were the issue and what made it invisible. From this video it seems I should take my Jun out for a new session... ;D Vikings chart says; Beginner numbers 11,5,-1,2, Power thrower 11,5,-2,1. That chart is great and all, but they are inconsistent with stamping only the Beginner OR only the Power numbers. The Ragnarök, Valhalla, Berserker, Barbarian, Loki have the beginner ones, on the Thunder God Thor, Knife, Rune, Nordic Warrior, Axe its the Power Thrower ones... ;)

[@GabboDk]

I bag a star and g-star wraith, and be looking at the drive

[@connors83]

Wraith fills every distance driver stability depending on plastic/weight/wear. It's the People's Destroyer.

[@dennisblack6042]

Agreed. Star wraith more neutral, my GG Halo Wraith as beefy as anything I own. So different

[@bjornandersson6991]

My vote for best 11 speed disc is - skip that slot and throw 12 speed Neo Enigma instead. (If I have to choose one I would pick Halo Star Mamba for turnovers / hyzer flip max distance shots)

[@arthurgoerner488]

Um, my favorite wraith-like driver is my beat-in Champion Wraith, best disc I ever owned, lost it, cried, and got a Star Wraith immediately. That is now my favorite "wraith-like" driver. Why settle for imitations? All my other discs in my bag beside a PA3 are Discraft. What's that tell you?

[@SiggeSolarix]

You guys would really improve the quality of the flight testing if you had a speedgun, pocketradar or something to measure arm speed when throwing! I think you're throwing between 55-65mph but it seems like the armspeed varies alot. Flight changes drastically from 55 to 65mph.

[@griffin14mc]

Video idea! Have fans send in either a pretty or ugly disc in to see if pretty discs fly farther 😅

[@bikerbrandon1]

Krate is good too

[@netdaddy]

not sure how you missed the 2 best 11 speeds out there- the Wave and the Mamba

[@johnwall1634]

Defys are so underrated.

[@willwright6447]

For us noodle arms 140g blizzard wraiths do just fine 😂

[@DennisExoticPets]

Discraft drive

[@Rathe6]

Kid you not - I have a blizzard Wraith that put me off them for a long time. The thing is a beef stick. It goes like 100ft. Eventually I decided to try again and found I liked most Wraiths quite a bit!

[@keyelectric91]

My wrath flys like a wrath lol it's a champion blizzard 154g but yeah, I have a glow longhorn it's beef 0 T 3 F and I had a 152g fission photon that was pretty neutral like -1 T 1.5 F flight but it just had really sharp edges and I didn't like that.

[@willwright6447]

I tried a Discraft Drive (170 g) and it was more stable for mw than my 140g blizzard wraith. Probably just the weight difference though. I am gonna look for a lighter one. @@DennisExoticPets

[@DeeDee-fi4kq]

So how many different 11 speeds are we comparing too, given that each throw will be placing a desire on a specific outcome with a specific disc that will have dramatically different flight characteristics depending on which one of the 37 specific plastics it could have been made of, the weight, the superhero artwork!, the armspeed release angle and spin rate of the thrower, the color of the plastic and whether it has any metal flake or not, the wind speed and direction, the dome or pop top or lack thereof, the level of beat in, the year the disc was made, whether or not it's a pro players signature mold, the humidity as it relates to grip and superstitions, the psychological effects of brand loyalty on throwing accuracy, same molds having parting lines in different places, and any serious blisters that have formed on throwing hand fingers due to sharp rough edges on the rims of otherwise great 11 speed discs???

[@ScroDiddly]

It champion most over stable?

[@markhumphrey8894]

I wish you threw Streamline Trace 11 5 -1 2 @ 169. My is quite overstable

[@SethryD]

At 14:44 I got so distracted by the Hey Bear Sensory dancing fruits music... If you're a parent of a young child age 3-5, you know what I'm talking about.

[@andreww.9326]

what i’ve always heard is that the wave is mvp’s “wraith”