QUESTION: Do you think the Driven drivetrain will make the leap from cool concept to derailleur killer? 🤔🤔
@roseroserose5883 жыл бұрын
seems like shaft drive with a hub gear is a better solution? both technologies tried & trusted no point reinventing the wheel
@roseroserose5883 жыл бұрын
only if you want self contained though - chain isn't going anywhere
@jimhansen53953 жыл бұрын
I don’t think it’s going to replace derailleur systems, at least not until there are more innovations in materials and engineering design. And while the engineering and materials challenges are significant, I think the real challenge is going to be convincing frame manufacturers to invest in the currently unproven design...
@albertbatfinder52403 жыл бұрын
I think it’s a “solar roadways” sized fraud. It will attract funds because it looks so glamorous, like the Crown Jewels of drivetrains. It is front-and-square at bike shows as a lure for the journalists. They use every marketing trick in the book. Lately they have even been selling the concept on the aerodynamics. Like yeah, we are concerned about the surface area of our derailleur. My prediction is that the “investors” (if there are any, $1m is a conveniently round number) will lose their money. They are crowd funding now. The end product is 2 to 3 years away and always will be. Lol. Broker’s recommendation: avoid.
@hellosunshine10903 жыл бұрын
Not hep on it. Looks flashy but weak. CEOs letter said the same. I run a machine shop & ride Road & FAT bikes. My Road are chain & 10 speed (ubiquitous & flexible) + a Specialized Langster Fixed Gear (unbreakable & efficient). The Belt drive running an IGH is a 'dream item' in my Future + I believe the way forward for increased drivetrain reliability. I'm SUPER curious about Shimanos 13 Speed Gearbox development - what have you heard of late ? PS I know Rolloff & Pinion are FAB but they're $$$ still & Shimano seems to have all the right factors to bring Gearbox Bikes to the FOREFRONT of the marketplace.
@Krieghandt3 жыл бұрын
when building solar race cars, our numbers were 93% for chain and 86% for shaft. that was 800 lbs at 1100 watts. which really adds up on a 300 mile race.
@Cyclingabout3 жыл бұрын
Interesting! Thanks for the data point. 👍🏻
@5ynthesizerpatel3 жыл бұрын
It's long been known that chain drives were more efficient - I remember reading through a book on the history of the Morgan Car company where they were saying the same thing about their Cyclecars (2 wheels at the front and one at the back- with a chain drive ) in the early 1900s What shaft drives bring are reliability. When I worked as a MC courier I'd generally get through a chain a sprocket set every 2 months (10k) - when I switched to a shaft drive bike I'd just have to change the oil in the shaft drive every few months and have the system serviced once a year. On a pedal bike you're probably going to want to optimize for power efficiency rather than high mileage reliability, so a shaft is never likely to catch on.
@bev82003 жыл бұрын
What about reliability
@carlofasano42933 жыл бұрын
@@bev8200 no contest on reliability: shaft wins 10 times out of 10. As a source, just look at motorcycles applications
@5ynthesizerpatel3 жыл бұрын
@@carlofasano4293 - the question is, is it really worth optimising for high mileage reliability, as opposed to optimising for power efficiency, on a pedal bike? How many riders are really doing enough miles to justify it and will want to sacrifice power efficiency to achieve it? especially considering the comparatively low cost of a replacement sprocket/cassette and chain. Shaft drives on motorbikes have always been pretty niche - mostly restricted to the big high mileage tourers from BMW and Honda and a few other corner cases - they're going to be an even smaller niche on pedal bikes.
@kentslocum3 жыл бұрын
At this point, I need tires that stay inflated before I can even begin to worry about the efficiency of my drive train.
@Echa37-H373 жыл бұрын
I'll make a start up that sells solid rubber tires and advertise it as not needing any pumping
@lorditsprobingtime66683 жыл бұрын
I used to live in an area where we had these really nasty weeds that grew these burs we called catheads, they would go straight through even those thickened puncture resistant tubes. I wound up putting stuff called green slime in them and the tyres would still pick them up and break most off again while riding but the ones that came out left tiny blobs of this green that had almost instantly sealed the punctures. There could literally be dozens of these little blobs of green and every 1 of them would have left me with a flat long before I got home. You will still lose a small amount of air and need to top them up semi regularly but at least I could go for a proper ride.
@GrafEnsker3 жыл бұрын
I'd recommend the Tannus Airless. They have tires with different "pressures" and different surfaces (slick/non slick/wet tires). Bit hard to get on, but ride very well and dont need swift replacement
@lorditsprobingtime66683 жыл бұрын
@@GrafEnsker I must admit I'm not familiar with those tyres but, anything that can give a satisfactory ride and decent traction with low friction that DOESN'T contain air would be by far the best if you live in an area where punctures are a constant problem. I will look into them myself now too. Thanks for the information.I'm
@ShrapnelACU3 жыл бұрын
Or rims that never go out of true.
@Default783342 жыл бұрын
Shaft drive bicycles have found a bit of a niche in industrial environments (e.g. navigating around large manufacturing plants or oil refineries) where efficiency isn't a major concern and the reduced risk of falls from getting pant cuffs stuck in the gears is a decent selling point.
@darknase2 жыл бұрын
In this environment also costs - beyond initial acquisition - for replacement parts and general maintenance are of no concern and a culture of over-provisioning guarantees availability and reliability.
@jacquestube2 жыл бұрын
That's true I have seen bicycles like that in the paper mills around here. Of course sadly and invariably they seem to want to switch over to golf carts or the industrial version of those things. Unfortunately I got a lot of Mill guys are fat and old
@gabiferreira68642 жыл бұрын
I've lost count of how many pant cuffs I've ripped on my bike!
@windhelmguard5295 Жыл бұрын
true, lots of large facilities have mandatory work boots and long pants, so pants getting snagged by the chain would be a concern, and my guess is even the office staff won't like getting chain grease on their suits.
@benjamingeiger11 ай бұрын
They seem to be common in bikeshare systems for the same reason.
@MD08863 жыл бұрын
considering bicycle manufacturers couldn't manage to get the tolerances right on pressfit BBs, it's highly unlikely they will get them right for a shaft drive system
@Cyclingabout3 жыл бұрын
Savage... but fair.
@DaveCM3 жыл бұрын
That is two very different things. Carbon is actually a difficult thing to produce to tight tolerances. Machining can be very precise
@edmundscycles13 жыл бұрын
@@DaveCM some can't even machine aluminium for bb30 and pf30 .
@davidstepro74863 жыл бұрын
Reminds me of a buddy who once told me cameras would max out at 8mp as the science at that time was where it was at. I told him just wait. Imagine how far science has taken us in the last 50 years and try to think forward.
@edmundscycles13 жыл бұрын
@@davidstepro7486 the issue for the bike industry is cost effectiveness . Digital cameras are relatively easy to produce cheaper . Manufacturing a part like shaft drive , ensuring quality control at frame factories and producing the volume for such parts is hard for cycle manufacturers to get right . Case in point is the new cervelo with cracking head tubes , canyon with their seat posts .
@joshnabours91022 жыл бұрын
2:53 - in motorcycles, chain drives typically waste 1 to 3 percent of the input energy, where shaft drives typically waste 5 to 15 percent of the input power. Bicycle shaft drives should have similar efficiencies to this.
@joshnabours91022 жыл бұрын
@Bill while that is true of motorcycles, and while the power to weight ratio would be reduced due to efficiency on a bike and a motorcycle, I don't think the weight itself would be an issue with type of design on a bicycle. Assuming the shaft is made from fiberglass, carbon fiber, or the thin aluminum bike frame tubing, the weight would probably be similar to the front chain-ring parts, rear chain-ring parts, derailleur, and chain the system replaces. Definitely so if the gears are hollowed out to the minimum needed thickness and use lighter weight alloys. The system only needs to transfer between 250 and 1000 watts or so of total mechanical power continuously, so you can get away with much thinner and lighter materials than a 65+ kilowatt rated (500+ cc) motorcycle engine could.
@ludwigheijden50602 жыл бұрын
This data comes from one example. Not really scientific is it?
@Frost679152 жыл бұрын
@@joshnabours9102 you mention the power but forgot the torque, which as said in the video, is gonna be concentrated on a small area of gears, instead of whole lenght of chain that sits on a front sprocket. In motorcycles nowadays you can only get a shaft having like +1200cc engine (VFR1200, BMW K1600, FJR1300), with few exceptions, so there's a lot of torque and power to compensate the weight and still these are only heavy touring/offroad bikes or maybe cruisers. Not a sport ones.
@alfaeology2 жыл бұрын
The thing is in bicycle you have to pedal it by yourself while in motorcycle the engine do the work
@AmericanThunder2 жыл бұрын
@@Frost67915 The old Madura motorcycles had a 700cc and a 1200cc option, the 1200 ran a low 11 second 1/4 mile, not too shabby for a heavy cruiser with a driveshaft. I would NEVER put a driveshaft on a bicycle, lol. The only reason they're nice on motorcycles is they live forever with very low maintenance required.
@asharkis2 жыл бұрын
When I was about six years old, my father attended a trade show and was fascinated by a shaft-driven tricycle (I believe it was called a Gear-o-cycle.) He bought one for me. It was bigger and heavier than the typical kid’s tricycle but not as big as an adult tricycle. It had a differential at the rear, but the welds that attached that differential case to the rear frame kept breaking. Eventually we gave up on it, the company that made it went out of business, and no other company ever took up a similar design.
@dustinbrueggemann1875 Жыл бұрын
That's usually a QC or review related issue. Proper welds are generally stronger than the base metal they're joining, so if a weld breaks, it's usually just bad welding. It's only when base metal starts to break that you should really suspect a bad design.
@petersmythe64623 жыл бұрын
me, an intellectual: Why do chains when you can do *GIANT GEARS*
@keithwittman47413 жыл бұрын
Added weight.
@christophercervantes53463 жыл бұрын
*Rolls along on top of the bottom bracket gear because it's so big* 😂
@StealthTheUnknown3 жыл бұрын
@@keithwittman4741 SKELETONIZED gears.
@ThankYouESM3 жыл бұрын
Pedal assist seems like a far better solution.
@tormenmashi_3 жыл бұрын
wait till your ball sack gets caught in the gear
@DCassidy423 жыл бұрын
I like chain-driven systems, but for mountain biking, the derailleur is so vulnerable to impacts. I think there's room for improvement.
@atomicsmith3 жыл бұрын
Systems like the pinion gearbox paired with a gates belt are probably a better solution than a shaft drive.
@golddiggerdave3 жыл бұрын
Out of interest what percentage of mile vs transmission failure have you had? I do around 3k miles a year not loads but only ever had slipping derailleur once around 14 years ago, only 1 broken chain around 5 years ago both were simple trail side fixes. So 2 fixable transmission issues in over 45k of miles. Had one terminal issue of a pedal sheering off and stripping the thread. Cable tied my foot to the good pedal and cycled 19 miles to the closest bike shop.
@BubbafromSapperton3 жыл бұрын
Simple to have a guard included with the bike but that would cost $5.00 to the manufacturers... 🤣
@DCassidy423 жыл бұрын
@@golddiggerdave it all depends on the terrain. I ride in the Canadian rockies and I took out two in one summer season last year. Maybe put on 500km on my mtb.
@ThylineTheGay3 жыл бұрын
Or if you have a little shit for a sibling that likes crashing into it
@brandonguz2 жыл бұрын
I use a shaft drive bike for my commuter, and I also have a road bike with a traditional Shimano rear derailleur. Here in the Netherlands, having a shaft drive for cycling in the rain is a massive benefit. I have done virtually no maintenance on the bike in almost 5 years and I think the loss of efficiency is negligible when commuting at less than 100 watts (compared to other commuter/hybrid bikes I’ve owned in the past). I’ve also lived in dry, hilly cities and in that case, I agree that the a traditional bike would be much better.
@ArniesTech2 жыл бұрын
I use closed Shimano Nexus 7speed. And the chain runs inside a cover. 4 salty rainy dirty winters and the chain looks like brand new 🙏
@dashiellgillingham45792 жыл бұрын
Ah, that checks out. I was wondering what the appeal of a closed up mechanism would be. Having fixed my (literally salvaged from a junkyard) chain many times on the road, I wasn’t thinking about the average person, who isn’t going to want to have to do that under any circumstances.
@windhelmguard5295 Жыл бұрын
that's what i was thinking, especially office workers should appreciate not getting chain grease on their trousers and it's not like you're ever going to have to fight the reduced efficiency up hill in the netherlands. also one key disadvantage of derailleur drives not mentioned in this video is that, if you have a fall or get into any other situation where something bumps the derailleur, the whole thing will never work right ever again.
@scottiehanbacks65957 ай бұрын
Didn't know they made these bikes
@birdrocket3 жыл бұрын
Nitpick about 5:52, the shaft needs low tolerances. High tolerance means it is more accepting of error, low tolerance means it needs to be more precise.
@Samonitari3 жыл бұрын
Was about to say the same!
@markallison47943 жыл бұрын
@@Samonitari Ditto. I always use the unambiguous terms tight or close tolerances.
@EddieOtool3 жыл бұрын
He kinda mixed high precision and low tolerances I guess.
@Skooteh3 жыл бұрын
Most of the time I've heard "high tolerances" being used in an engineering environment it's synonymous with "tight tolerances" or "high precision". With that said it's still pretty ambiguous which is why I prefer to use "tight" or "loose" tolerances.
@EddieOtool3 жыл бұрын
@Ralph Macchiato kinda the whole topic here actually. Nice pun.
@GamingNachos3 жыл бұрын
The shaft drive is like the rotary engine of the bicycle world
@thebirchwoodtree3 жыл бұрын
"Wow that's a neat idea, too bad it's worse"
@igorino17673 жыл бұрын
@@thebirchwoodtree sad to admit but that's well said
@cocojeffrey85023 жыл бұрын
The chain and derailleur system is beautifully simple, reliable and easy to maintain. The troubling bit is the cable levers mechanisms which seem to break on cheap bikes.
@graham10343 жыл бұрын
Sort of the opposite in many ways though. Rotaries are lighter, less reliable, more compact. Like shaft drives though they are less efficient.
@MrMikeT893 жыл бұрын
If done correctly with crazy maintenance rotary engines are theoretically more efficient. Unfortunately they just aren't very practical or easy to maintain
@TheWtfnonamez2 жыл бұрын
This problem reminds me of the bushcraft hatchet. Everyone is always trying to come up with a high-tech replacement to the traditional hatchet. The old fashioned design has its drawbacks, mainly that its quite heavy, but in all other regards it excels. It is cheap, incredibly robust, cheap and easy to repair, lasts almost indefinitely, and mother natures plain wooden handle is both durable and acts as a natural shock absorber, protecting the users wrist from fatigue. Over the years I have seen a myriad of alternative designs, all trying to make it lighter, foldable, multifunctional, or more compact. All these attempts end up causing massive negative effects, such as making it vastly weaker, causing terrible vibration in the handle, poor cutting, low durability, and almost ALL of these high tech solutions are more expensive.... and are worse. The OG wooden handled, steel head hatchet nailed the design over a millennia ago. It is just the best design hands down, and you can get a basic one from Amazon for fifteen bucks, sharpen it, put boiled linseed on the handle, and you are all set for three generations of wood cutting. Just like the traditional bicycle chain, sometimes the problem has already been solved, and attempts to improve on the solution are not worth the effort.
@bobbirdsong6825 Жыл бұрын
Maybe that’s true of the hatchet, but I don’t think it’s true of the derailleur. For one, the derailleur is part of a complex machine that hasn’t stopped being reiterated from the start. For two, the hatchet is closer to a fixed gear bike, and the derailleur closer to a proper axe or saw. And while a hatchet can’t be improved on much, there are plenty of new axes and saws that benefit from innovation.
@phuzzo1 Жыл бұрын
I would not say the attempts are not worth the effort. They add to our knowledge of ways not to do it. Possible there is no better way to do it but in the hunt to improve on it you need to know what has already been tried. Quite often inventions are overturned, but only after some serious effort, and every step along the way naysayers continued to say it could not be done. Powered flight is a good example.
@phuzzo1 Жыл бұрын
Another is electric cars. They have been around for a really long time but only quite recently that they started to be mass produced as a genuine competitor to ICE cars.
@SatanIsTheLord4 ай бұрын
@@phuzzo1 what kind of idiot are you, Sir?
@brandywell443 жыл бұрын
Some 15 years ago I went to a major bike show in the UK and was excited to ride and buy a shaft bike for leisure. When it came to my turn the bikes shaft gearbox had detached from the wheel because of loose fasteners and the show staff had not the ability to fix it.
@canobenitez3 жыл бұрын
@Giuliano Skywalker what about buying the tools and having proper assitnace from the seller?
@Aereto3 жыл бұрын
@Giuliano Skywalker Someone who has been in automotive/mechanical engineering should be familiar with the concept of gear and shaft drives, but the tools and equipment appropriate for the drive is a different story.
@jerzywoking16993 жыл бұрын
What about the Alan Millyard built MTB? In very simple terms, he built an enclosed drive system, and the bike won some championship races in 2006. Very easy to mass produce from the look of it, but totally ignored. There is a few KZbin videos of it on his channel.
@brandywell443 жыл бұрын
@@jerzywoking1699 Yes I saw that video, sealed drivetrain and gearbox. Amazing bike he built for his son to race.
@canobenitez3 жыл бұрын
@@brandywell44 here is the link of the MTB Alan built kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4bEnGyppq-gpK8
@MyChevySonic3 жыл бұрын
As someone who has replaced driveshafts and chains on machines for a living, I'll take a chain over a shaft any day.
@lorditsprobingtime66683 жыл бұрын
They've all been tested thoroughly and the chain drive is the least friction, (something probably more important to a pushbike rider than most other applications) while belt drive was next best with shaft drive being the worst. If it was a motorbike operating in really dirty sandy type conditions I'd see the value in a shaft drive but for EVERYTHING else I'd stick with chain drive too. I've got 2 motorbikes now and seemingly only in recent years the chains somehow seem to have improved vastly compared to 15 years or so ago when I would be forever having to adjust them. On both bikes I've got I tightened them a tiny bit after about a thousand kilometers or so and keep checking but even 9,000 kilometers later on 1 it's still pretty perfect and same with the other after a few less but still not even looking like it's even changed at all since that first settling in and adjust. Admittedly 1 is only used on the road but the other gets a bit of dirt riding, not a lot these days but still, it has been in the mud and dust and is still excellent. So, I agree 100% without even watching a video once I saw that terrible high friction rear gearing arrangement in the thumbnail pic when you get to this video. I'm not going to waste my time watching the video of what looks clever(ish) but very high friction and wear and probably very easily jump teeth if you cranked hard which on a men's pushbike is a toe grinding and nutcracking nightmare, this coming from someone who grew up riding a pushbike with very second hand 3 speed hub gears that OFTEN found a sort of neutral and gave me those treatments. If it was an evil plan to stop me from breeding, it failed since I've got 3 kids lol.
@brett70113 жыл бұрын
Why is that?
@lorditsprobingtime66683 жыл бұрын
@@brett7011 "Why is" what? Also, who are you asking? Any relevant reasons are already stated so if you've got a specific question, ask that specific question instead of just a general "why". EDIT: And specify WHO you're asking too.
@nikispaniki3 жыл бұрын
@@lorditsprobingtime6668 interesting reply that matched my personal experiences. Part 2 for me is the bike industry is trying make a low power machine much too complex.
@russeldemesa2913 жыл бұрын
@@lorditsprobingtime6668 .95 Fpfpj
@480JD Жыл бұрын
Coolest new thing Ive seen for bikes is an oval crank gear that made it easier when you were at the angle of least power and was wider where your leg was able to impart the most torque on the crank.
@lyssanch3096 Жыл бұрын
I heard those wear out the chain faster not sure if true
@jurekgadzinowski2895 Жыл бұрын
@@lyssanch3096 propably by a slight amount as it is tensioned a bit differently as you are pedalling
@eyesuckle Жыл бұрын
Actually, those eccentric chain rings were probably at the height of their popularity about 25 years ago. Even then, they weren't very common. I'm not sure but I think one problem with them might have been that they made it difficult to position the front derailleur properly as the chain would continually rise and fall with the rotation of the chain ring.
@lyssanch3096 Жыл бұрын
@@eyesuckle so its better suited for single speeds ?
@eyesuckle Жыл бұрын
@@lyssanch3096 Well, maybe not necessarily for one-gear bicycles, but at least bicycles without a front derailleur. An eccentric chain ring wouldn't be a problem for the operation of the rear derailleur. And from what I've seen, bikes with only a rear derailleur seem to be making a comeback!
@rosejuliette91803 жыл бұрын
I'm really glad cost and simplicity was included repeatedly in this analysis. It really annoys me when people miss the obvious and practical uses and not just pure opinion on design. I think shaft systems are cool but I'm happy with my chain. I've ridden city bikes with a shaft system and not felt at any disadvantage for that use.
@Broockle2 жыл бұрын
ye, I imagine in a city u wouldn't have any of the benefits of a shaft drive I would like to try a shaftdrive for a mountain bike tho
@dinadeira2 жыл бұрын
@Karl with a K you didn't even watch the video, or if you did you didn't comprehend it since he addressed most of what you said
@edwinhuang92442 жыл бұрын
@Karl with a K Pull up the data showing that claim is right then.
@harrylane42 жыл бұрын
Somebody in this comment section literally used a “1-3% difference in efficiency” as a reason why shaft drives should be considered useless and completely ignored, and that’s just a sign of how out of touch the bike community is
@harrylane42 жыл бұрын
@Karl with a K lmao you don’t even know what you’re talking about
@whazzat80153 жыл бұрын
Perfect for those who don't care about cost, efficiency or weight .
@ThankYouESM3 жыл бұрын
Pedal assist seems like a far better solution.
@garorobe3 жыл бұрын
So... hipsters?
@untrainedprofessionals23743 жыл бұрын
There's a reason these things haven't ever taken off. Motorcycles haven't even adopted the shaft drive. Shaft is is a solution to a problem that never existed.
@whazzat80153 жыл бұрын
@@untrainedprofessionals2374 Had Beemers for years. took them 6o years to get it right. Triumph of engineering over design.
@joshb69933 жыл бұрын
@@whazzat8015 they still will be dumping a bunch of power into heating the oil around the driveshaft. When you've got to power the machine with your own meat sticks it's never going to be close. Transferring power thru 90 degrees not once but twice will always be a ball ache.
@StevenGoris3 жыл бұрын
The city rental bikes in Antwerp, Belgium have this drivetrain. They don't feel as smooth to drive as chain-driven bikes, you really feel the cogs when pedaling. I don't expect the tolerances to be very tight on these bikes but the fact that everything is super stiff and the cogs are so close to your pedals may have something to do with it.
@juliusminklei78463 жыл бұрын
I don’t even care about any of this. I now want a shaft drivetrain bike, solely because they look cooler than normal bikes. That’s the only reason.
@animalanimal79393 жыл бұрын
Good luck with that philosophy
@klj23823 жыл бұрын
I’m thinking you’re sarcastic but I’m sure there’s a ton of other people with his mindset
@Bitterstone38493 жыл бұрын
Its ALWAYS about astetics.
@juliusminklei78463 жыл бұрын
@@Bitterstone3849 You’re damn right
@juliusminklei78463 жыл бұрын
@@animalanimal7939 Thanks homie
@gregknipe87723 жыл бұрын
perhaps the only bike related reviewers / offers facts and data. and no pimping products to fill a you tube presentation. as always, thank you for your hard work here.
@ThePaalanBoy2 жыл бұрын
So far, i've peddled hard enough to drag the chain over the gears (forced skipping), ripped the springed arm right off the bike and deformed wheels. "Cheap" and "light weight" isn't what i'm looking for in a bike anymore 😂
@bummer63 жыл бұрын
I actually owned a shaft drive bicycle about a year ago. It was old, there was a lot of slop in the system and it felt like I lost a bit more power between the pedals and the wheels than on a chain drive bike, but it was quirky and fun to use! Although I wouldn't recommend it. Also worth noting that it had three gears using a shimano geared hub.
@patientestant2 жыл бұрын
Belt drives look nice, clean and efficient. I’d definitely like to try one. Shaft drives are not going to get over the hurdles. Chains are great!
@fredbecker6072 жыл бұрын
Harley Davidson has been using belt drive since the 1980's.
@john_barnett2 жыл бұрын
I've been riding chain drive bicycles for almost 30 years. I got a belt drive about 6 months ago and I'll never switch back.
@oerthling6 ай бұрын
@@john_barnettSame here. Just got a new bike with a belt. There's no going back
@bytesandbikes3 жыл бұрын
although not directly comparable, there's more chain vs shaft data in the motorbike world. From memory, their numbers were 95% for chain and 80% for shaft.
@MrCh0o3 жыл бұрын
There's one thing that I have to wonder about though... I assume all these tests were done with fresh sprockets and chains. But if we assume that the user is not going to maniacally change these parts as soon as there are smallest signs of wear, the efficiency will drop, and chain system will likely start wearing much faster than shaft. Maybe on average the difference is not that critical? Motorbikes also have a separate gearbox instead of a derailleur, meaning they have much less chain/sprocket wear, too
@Shindinru3 жыл бұрын
Bike chain line efficiency has been studied to death. Bike chains can reach 98% under lab conditions with certain fixed large diameter sprocket combinations, think 30T+ on both ends. In reality a fresh and properly set up 9 speed drivetrain hits between 83% and 95% depending on sprocket combination and drops from there over time. The individual factor with the highest direct impact is chain tension. Any slack in the return (ie top) of the chain greatly impacts efficiency.
@bytesandbikes3 жыл бұрын
@N V Percent energy transferred, the higher the better. Remaining lost to noise and heat.
@chudchadanstud3 жыл бұрын
@N V Different parts do different things. Thus different efficiencies. Dont mix things.
@RunnerBeanzDad3 жыл бұрын
Slightly off topic - back in my motorcycling days I had a motorbike with a driveshaft. On one memorable day the driveshaft snapped. I was travelling south on the A12 (in the UK) approaching the junction with the M25, maybe a mile or two away, at about 70mph. The two ends of the drive shaft then wedged together inside the casing, locking the back wheel solid. Biggest skid I ever did.
@georgewbushcenterforintell1473 жыл бұрын
Here is my POV from a casual bike rider . I like that the chain system is easy to fix and operate . the chainless version seems to complicated and hard to fix if you were 2 miles up trail you might as well be up the creek without a paddle
@JCGver2 жыл бұрын
But a shaft drive wouldn't fail as often as a chain. Especially in a low power application as a bicycle it should last forever. That said, chain and sprocket are much cheaper and lighter. And if you are using hub gearbox you can completely enclose the chain, reducing wear from outside dirt.
@mass-cp6jf2 жыл бұрын
@@JCGver until you break the gear teeth and are screwed
@RikkaYeet2 жыл бұрын
@@mass-cp6jf chain system also have teeth which grab on chain and in my experience it much more fragile.
@mass-cp6jf2 жыл бұрын
@@RikkaYeet not even close to the same amount of stress being added. don't just say shit you know nothing about
@snakedike3 жыл бұрын
I was working in a machine shop in the mid 80's in Chico CA while going through engineering school. One of the machinist's showed me the exact concept here that he was working on. He was very excited this would revolutionize biking. I didn't think he had much of a chance of succeeding as I figured it couldn't compete with the efficiency of a chain. But here we are. I hope he profited on this some how but it's very difficult to bring a product to market, even more so before the internet. I suspect this was independently developed and he never received anything.
@brodriguez110002 жыл бұрын
There's also one system I've seen where it's rods pushing back and forth.
@panchoxbrr3013 жыл бұрын
Coolest (2) bikes I ever saw were owned by two guys stopping for a break in NYC. They were hundred year old fixie shaft drives with (original) wooden rims.
@N0Xa880iUL3 жыл бұрын
Cool
@budlight29693 жыл бұрын
coolest bike i ever seen was some crackhead who welded a bunch of 20 inch frames together untill the bike was like 18 ft high 😢
@stevephillips81922 жыл бұрын
Hey, we want pictures!!
@JTKK92 жыл бұрын
@@stevephillips8192 bump i love crack ideas
@EgnachHelton3 жыл бұрын
In my experience, the few shaft-driven bikes I had rided feel much heavier than normal chain-driven ones.
@iontheprotogen2 жыл бұрын
@Karl with a K The video stated that they are less efficient than a chain drive…
@Fuzzycat162 жыл бұрын
@Karl with a K "zero maintenance" is a complete lie.
@Fuzzycat162 жыл бұрын
@Karl with a K Everything requires maintenance. You're just lying to make a point and it makes you sound stupid. Edit: So instead of adressing my point you try to insult me. You sir are a failure of the highest degree.
@kadrikarakoc807 Жыл бұрын
@Karl with a K you should be a shaft bike manufacturer for saying shaft are more efficient :D
@MikMech2 жыл бұрын
I think the gearing needs to be at the crank, and fixed at the axle. Servicing and sealing would probably be easier. Also, the ring gear could be supported and aligned by the stronger frame, not weak spokes.
@roberthaines42212 жыл бұрын
@MikMech -- that is what I have always thought too. A Rohloff hub with a shaft drive might be the ideal city bike set-up.
@TheAnon232 Жыл бұрын
I agree. What excites me most are innovations around gearboxes like Pinion’s that happen at the crank. And, given the current technologies I like both chains and belts. I have both and they’re both great in different scenarios. I have a single speed with a chain, multiple bikes with chains and derailleurs, and a bike with a gates drive and shimano hub. They all have their place right now but an efficient, lightweight gearbox at the crank that can change gears under load seems to be the most realistic ideal. $.02
@casbot713 жыл бұрын
Note to self: modify Street Racing car to use chain drive and derailer.
@biggusdickus98093 жыл бұрын
Reliability is a factor
@johnstonewall9173 жыл бұрын
Buy a Fraser-Ńash car.
@dylanmartin2123 жыл бұрын
No point. They have transmission with a shaft drivetrain😂 derailleurs are just small size transmissions😂
@mikegLXIVMM3 жыл бұрын
I thought of this years ago thinking it would be great for mountain bikes, since it can be sealed so that dirt and mud could not get into it. A bike enthusiast told me it would have more resistance.
@tobyvision3 жыл бұрын
There are patents and even mass produced shaft driven bicycles going back into the late 1800's. There is a reason they never succeeded.
@franklinfleming12372 жыл бұрын
@@tobyvision but hey intrusive market popping up maybe?
@leonda48173 жыл бұрын
I think it would work perfectly on e bikes. The weigth and efficiency won't matter in that case. Also, i don't belive a modern, well engineered shaft drive is that much less efficient than a real-world worn and dirty chain anyways
@Crushonius3 жыл бұрын
that is A LOT of assumptions you make about shaft drives based on one test from the 1980s
@ferrumignis3 жыл бұрын
Bicycles aren't the only machines that use gears or chains, the efficiency advantages of chains and belts over gears (and especially bevel gears) have been well understood for a long time.
@jamesbarrick34033 жыл бұрын
The cost, lack of efficiency, and lack of easy fix is still prevalent today. Keep in mind the bicycle is by far the biggest mode of transportation throughout the world for almost 2 centuries. Somebody keeps trying to revive the shaft drive like somebody keeps trying to make a better rotary engine. Its not happening.
@jag2172 жыл бұрын
the chains advantage is that motion stays in the same direction throughout power transmission. a shaft changes three times. Each change introduces inefficiency .
@stevie-ray20202 жыл бұрын
Added to that is the shaft is angled away from the crank-angle!
@solarprophet54392 жыл бұрын
I think shaft drive would work quite well for ebikes for the same reasons they work for motorcycles; you can increase motor power to compensate for the lower efficiency. Plus with a shaft drive, you could completely encase the whole system making it much more resistant to the elements, something which ebikes do still struggle with.
@johngunz2562 жыл бұрын
Very good points!
@anthonybertrand65292 жыл бұрын
more power equals more battery consumption. You've just killed your range.
@GremlinSciences2 жыл бұрын
eBikes actually have another point that makes then ideal for shaft drive; the motor can be mounted in alignment with the driveshaft for greater efficiency.
@MrMartinSchou3 жыл бұрын
I hate when the "effective" and "light weight" arguments are brought up for chain drives. The VAST majority of bicycles are heavy and not used in situations where extracting that extra 3% of energy makes any difference whatsoever. Those two arguments are only valid in racing. I would argue that 99% of people who buy road or mountain bikes would save far more weight and get far more energy into the tyres if they lost weight and became fitter than they do buy fitting light weight chain drive equipment. The ACTUAL reason we keep using chains is that they are cheap, and they are cheap because we use them on everything. They are good enough for the vast majority of people. You could have a 100% effective drivetrain, and if it isn't cheap to manufacture (it won't be to start with) no one except the professionals will use it on their bicycles. If it's too expensive, not even amateur riders will use it. Similarly, if you could make a 75% efficient drivetrain that costs 1% of a chain drivetrain to make, you'd see them on bicycles everywhere tomorrow, because manufacturers would be frothing at the mouth to make money on it.
@siffoine3 жыл бұрын
I think this is failed argument. Sure, being fitter and driving lighter bicycles would be better, but has nothing to do with drive train. “Cheap” has to do with drivetrain and is a positive feature. All in all, even if your arguments are correct, they don’t make shaft drivetrain any better, it still stays more complex, less efficient, heavier, expensive... and I would argue complexity, cost and even weight matter for any cyclist, even if the maximum efficiency wouldn’t. And that is what this video was all about. I hate when every cycling video has someone saying that in average it would make more sense for people to be more fit. I buy that argument with ceramic bearings and/or carbon wheels that are more expensive and not that efficient in comparison, but not in this case, when the cheaper drivetrain is better in about every way.
@rasmuswi3 жыл бұрын
@@siffoine you might also argue that a light and efficient bike is more fun to ride, so you'll probably ride it more often, which will in the end make you fitter.
@Stereomoo2 жыл бұрын
Looking at the Driven system I'd say it has a flaw you didn't mention, similar to your #3 - forces on the teeth are applied in a direction where the sprocket is weak. In a chain drive, higher tension pulls the chain into the teeth. In a shaft drive, it pushes sideways on the teeth. There's also much less distribution of force; in a fresh chain and sprocket, it can pull on multiple teeth, the Driven will only ever be one bearing pushing on one tooth. Aside from the mechanical leverage you mentioned in #3 this is why bevel gears need to be built much more heavily.
@brianellison35252 жыл бұрын
As an engineer I see a lot of unnecessary drag built into the two 90° angles the torque needs to transfer through. That's the advantage of the chain drive, its all one linear motion. Much less inherent mechanical drag.
@MrLethal19863 жыл бұрын
Myself I think it's do with the derailleur being able to be used on a wide variety of bike. I follow a guy called Allen Milliard and he made multiple amazing downhill bikesfor his son who competed that where on average around 3 secs faster than other bikes at the time. Great content very interesting, thanks for sharing.
@ihavenoideahere3 жыл бұрын
And he did it by using a Shimano geared hub mounted inside the swing arm, with an enclosed final drive! Later versions even had single sided swing arms to speed up wheel/tyre changes. And he built it all at home in his shed! Also of note is the suspension shock/damper that Alan designed and built himself, basing his design on tank suspension!
@Balazs_Pk3 жыл бұрын
0:16 yeah, they're so common that i never heard about other mechanics
@JohnSmith-zk8xp3 жыл бұрын
This stuff for bikes existed in the 1800s
@robinrai49733 жыл бұрын
Love these super high quality videos man, awesome stuff
@Cyclingabout3 жыл бұрын
Much appreciated!
@emberpoptartkittenz6040 Жыл бұрын
Actually... If you put the drive shaft of the bike on a pivotable axis that can swing horizontally, then you can add a stack of different size gears on the back wheel. Then you would want to make the drive shaft's gear on the back end be spring loaded so it can move forward and backwards inline with the direction of the chassis, the spring action being parallel and also add a control chord you can adjust from the handlebars. Finally you will want to add a spring loaded cable to control what gear on the wheel hub is lined up the shaft. This cable would be attached to the handlebars and can even be wired through the frame. This cable is the cable that controls left and right motion along the horizontal axis (perpendicular). Now you could go through all that to make it have shiftable speeds, or you could replace the springs with motors. Or you could buy a hub motor for any bike size 20"or larger. Just a thought 🤔
@rhalfik3 жыл бұрын
Driveshaft bikes are already being used in citybikes in Cracow and they're way more reliable than chain bikes in other cities around here.
@awellner32853 жыл бұрын
Meanwhile ive been commuting by bike for the past 10 years, between 10 and 26km a day. Ive never had to replace the chain or even had it slip off the sprocket.
@christopherjc543 жыл бұрын
@@awellner3285 impressive!
@ARockyRock3 жыл бұрын
@@awellner3285 Must take care of that bike.
@Vi-pv3xi3 жыл бұрын
Shafts are more reliable and durable. But less efficient. I would rather choose the chain ones. For comfortable cycling.
@neilmarsh19043 жыл бұрын
@@awellner3285 You're lucky.
@N3G4T33 жыл бұрын
When possible, chains are better to use, they're more efficient, lighter, easier to repair and wear slower compared to drive gears. When you work on cars you recognise this quite fast.
@laszlonemet44252 жыл бұрын
Ah
@alohatigers11992 жыл бұрын
When you understand climate change, we don’t need cars
@N3G4T32 жыл бұрын
@@alohatigers1199 Lmao KZbin shadow banned your comment, even though you're pushing their views. Mechanical components are relevant to cars, even if you are concerned about the environmental impact of cars, it's a good reference point for mechanical components being used under load for extended periods of time. The environmental impact of cars is a seperate issue, not really relevant to my post.
@peterdarr3833 жыл бұрын
It's so simple - you crank a generator that shares power with a capacitor and a lithium battery. These release power to both hub motors. You also get regenerative braking and you never over-exert yourself.
@jeffersonmctitty72862 жыл бұрын
I never even knew shaft drives were a thing for bikes. sounds like a great idea to me. I've never had a bike with a derailleur that didn't get messed up somehow after a very few uses, and wind up gettint stuck in one gear anyway. In fact it's so bad the last bike I bought was just a single gear, just like a kids, so I didn't have to deal with it.
@wildmikefilms2 жыл бұрын
You must have been buying low end bikes then
@Cobalt9852 жыл бұрын
Internally geared hubs are a thing too.
@Zytiron2 жыл бұрын
Maybe next time you will take better care of your bikes.
@brigadgeneralvoid25082 жыл бұрын
Try adjusting the derailleur
@brianellison35252 жыл бұрын
To ignorant to figure out a bike? I wouldn't be bragging that up. I've got a 30 year old derailer that works just fine. But I know a thing or two about maintenance.
@johnjephcote76363 жыл бұрын
I was always interested in this idea which came out from several companies about 1910 but had disappeared within ten years. This answers my question about gear change.
@LeFaab3 ай бұрын
I have one of the Driveshaft Brik Bikes shown in the video since 2014. I chose it as an ultra low maintenance, city commuter/allrounder that can left outside in the rain parked against a tree all year round. At the time, belt drive options weren't as common as they are now. Anyway, I still have mine after 10y and had one situation after 7y that the drive system completely locked up. Had to sent it back to the manufacturer to replace the drivetrain as it basically had run dry of lubricant. Was costly, but still a lot cheaper than a new bike. Now still running fine without any mentionable issues although I don't use it as much anymore. Nice tech, worked very good for my use case but in the a belt drive system would be my next choice.
@rodbotic3 жыл бұрын
I had an instructor in uni, that had built a hydraulic bike with a small custom cvt.
@bev82003 жыл бұрын
With the rise of e bikes, I think for a nice adventure ebike built for doing long distances on and off road the shaft is phenomenal.
@awellner32853 жыл бұрын
Dont most E bikes have hub motors? Any sort of power transmission from motor to wheel would be inefficient in comparison
@Aereto3 жыл бұрын
@@awellner3285 There's also mid-mount motors usually found with conversion kits, provided the bike has a spot to install the battery and electronic compartments, which changes the bike mass balance. Though a chain bike and trousers/ dress pants for work typically don't play nice. If transmission driveshaft ebikes convince commuters to use their cars less and shift more into the electrical grid, I would not mind. So long as people BOTHERED to know that Class 3 Ebikes and electric motorbikes are legally different classifications, and I am not too pleased with bikers not following road rules, which I have personally observed everytime I commute on foot. The car always beats the biker in the weight class, and bikers think a bike helmet is sufficient protection.
@xupyprttffnge76032 жыл бұрын
@@awellner3285 hub motors are easier to fit, but they have the same disadvantages as regular singlespeed bike.
@pd46892 жыл бұрын
This mechanism will wear out long before traditional chain drives. A chain drive contacts at least half the teeth thereby distributing the load. In this model the entire load is placed on one tooth at a time. It's bound to distort the teeth faster.
@bololollek92453 жыл бұрын
I think that rohloff+beltdrive combo becoming cheaper or efficient beltdrive CVT would be more revolutionary. With shaft drive you convert the rotation motion to another direction 2 times and you most likely have to oil on those places like with chains. Does seem overly complicated compared to beltdrive and chaindrive that doesnt convert direction of rotation movement.
@RoxyStellar3 жыл бұрын
concur + as saying goes : gimmicks can be defined by amount superfluous parts
@jimihenrik113 жыл бұрын
I think the bike market needs some more alternatives for gear boxes. Because rohloff and pinion are just way too expensive to consider and most other options just don't have enough gear ratio. Right now the only gearbox i know that could be considered a solid value with enough gear ratio to be used on an allround (commuting/touring) bike is the alfine11.
@wimahlers3 жыл бұрын
@@jimihenrik11 I agree. Having said so, I have a Rohloff/chain combination on my about 40 kg 2-wheel cargo bicycle with the gear ratios optimized for hilly terrain. Even though I live in The Netherlands where it is mostly flat.
@spuddo1232 жыл бұрын
As a mountain biker, I have a chain. It works, is efficient and I can service it super easily. Not to mention relatively cheap to replace when it breaks/gets old.
@antonioZaRasFiNaLbOsS Жыл бұрын
I agree. I've changes my chain on my 2x11 and bought a XT chain for $33. And jokey wheels for $14. Transmission has no sound except when i change gears. Easy to install a chain with a chain breaker.
@SewolHoONCE2 жыл бұрын
Just saying: I did my solo, with-bicycle world tour (53 jurisdictions) from 1976 to 1992 with a Schwinn LeTour/Sports Tourer 10 speed and Cannondale trailer. I am here to tell the tale. As a delicate old man, I now ride a 21-speed, dual-suspension using only one speed. I have taken notice of the BMW shaft drive.
@saltysteel39963 жыл бұрын
Chains are stronger. They engage nearly half the teeth around a gear vs a gear on gear drive that engages just 1 or 2 teeth at a time.
@ThankYouESM3 жыл бұрын
Pedal assist seems like a far better solution.
@yetimano13 жыл бұрын
Nope. With chains engagement is also limited to 1-2 thin teeth. Gears drives have much stronger (and wider) teeths, allowing smaller gears to trasmit the same torque.
@frostsmaker89663 жыл бұрын
You will love chains until they get derailed when you ride your bike.
@contra11243 жыл бұрын
@@frostsmaker8966 actually the one thing I love about bike chains is that I can easily put them back on lol.
@irrelevance38593 жыл бұрын
@@frostsmaker8966 that's an easy fix though
@lincbond4423 жыл бұрын
"So why have these drive trains never taken off?". No pun intended.
@petersvancarek3 жыл бұрын
Because the friction is enormous and engaging only 1-2 teeths isn't exactly strong point of any transmission, not to mention extremely high torque transmission like bicycle has.
@DMSProduktions3 жыл бұрын
@@petersvancarek Teeths? LOL!
@petersvancarek3 жыл бұрын
@@DMSProduktions I will allow you to call it how do you choose, English isn't my first, not even my second language. The fact remains, the bevel gear has much larger working surface compared to this engineering nightmare...
@DMSProduktions3 жыл бұрын
@@petersvancarek I know! The word 'teeth' in English IS the plural! There is no word as 'teeths' in English! 'Tooth' is the singular! YW!
@gustavmeyrink_2.03 жыл бұрын
@@DMSProduktions you're quite the prick, aren't you?
@stevehuffman74532 жыл бұрын
shaft drive bicycle is an old idea, going back to the safety bicycle of the late 1890's. It failed then, and each of the roughly 20 ~ 25 times it was brought back since. I have zero doubt it will fail again. Disadvantages include: Requires a special frame. Weight - a shaft drive weighs considerably more than a chain drive. Difficulty removing the wheel to repair a flat. (could be canceled out by using no flats foam tubes or tires, but they introduce problems of their own: at 5 or 6 pounds for the tube or tire, that is a LOT of rotational weight, and foam tubes and tires don't necessarily play well with spoked wheels, among other issues.) For a single speed or multi speed internally geared hubs, a belt drive makes more sense than shaft drive. (tho I notice belt drives on bicycles has been pretty much abandoned again) Chain drive has been king for well over 100 years for a reason: It works. It is reliable. Light Weigh - even if a derailleur equipped bike. Easy to change the gearing by replacing the chain ring(s) Low cost, (manufacturing and maintenance/repairs) and relatively high efficiency, ease of adjustment, and long lasting, to name a few.
@rserton3 жыл бұрын
"But what if you don't care about efficiency or weight?" Then what the f**k am I doing here?
@cdgonepotatoes42193 жыл бұрын
Looks?
@MS-sd1uz3 жыл бұрын
I got myself a shaft drive bike simply for the practicality of not having to deal with any exposed grease whatsoever. It's awesome when you transport it or stick your clothes in it.
@cdgonepotatoes42193 жыл бұрын
@@MS-sd1uz There are shields that save your pants from rubbing on the chain, their only inconvenience is they make it a little harder to access the chain when you're on the go in case the derraileur throws it off the gears... which you can simply fix by looking for one you can take off without tools or do away with the derraileur and you'll never have to worry about the chain falling off ever again. Chain and shield now that I think about it are overall superior except for looks also because with a shaft I would also be more worried about hitting it, despite it probably taking as much force as you'd require to bend a gear before getting damaged in an unusable state, it's long and thin and sticks out a little more than the other option which would make me, if anything, a little anxious each time I pass over it with my foot. Despite everything, it looks sleek
@laveniashaw56043 жыл бұрын
The simplicity and durability of chains, even in dirty conditions, has stood the test of time. On the other hand, the alternative systems are heavy, would fail in dirty conditions, near impossible to repair ona roadside and are simply not a viable alternative.
@taufikabidin4123 жыл бұрын
Because all RnD was done in chain. I dont see many chain deraileur system in cars and machines
@justdude81153 жыл бұрын
simplicity and durability of chains? in dirty condition? What? Chain is awful, always requires lube, frequent cleaning (unless you want to replace the whole drivetrain after a few thousand km), rear derailleur can be hit by some rock or literally ripped off, especially in mud. "the alternative systems would fail in dirty conditions" - why an interal geared hub with belt should fail in dirty condition? Dirt can't get into hub, and belt is like 10x times more durable than chain. For touring bikes belts are the best.
@ghoulbuster13 жыл бұрын
Chains are 200 years old, plenty of time to evolve. Back then chains weren't so efficient.
@sepg50843 жыл бұрын
@@taufikabidin412 R&D was also done in gearboxes and shaft drives, that's why you can still buy them today. Shaft drives also has R&D in the motorcycle world (if you exclude automobiles), and the efficiency is even lower than bicycles shaft drives. Sometimes one design is just superior against another design.
@sepg50843 жыл бұрын
@@ghoulbuster1 shaft drives existed for about the same amount of time. Sometimes one design is simply superior compared to another design for certain applications.
@NoBop2000 Жыл бұрын
I don't know why a bike enthusiast channel was reccomended to me but this is very interesting despite me never learning how to ride a bike as a kid
@petert33553 жыл бұрын
Why use a shaft drive when you lose the fun of getting your pants leg caught in the chain. I mean come on, we all love the fashion statement of having our right pants leg tucked into our sock.
@Jehty_3 жыл бұрын
I myself am more a fan of having my right pants leg frayed because I always forget to tuck it in.
@holden_tld3 жыл бұрын
i always roll up my right pant leg, it means i'm in a gang.
@shadowwolfmandan3 жыл бұрын
More due to application. You might be wearing loose pants biking to work in which case your point has merit. For anyone on a mountain bike I guarantee they aren't wearing khaki's.
@tesla_tap2 жыл бұрын
Love my shaft drive bicycle. I use it for exercise not racing. With prior chain bike, I hated getting pants caught in the chain, grease on myself or my pants. I also had the chain come off while riding once, which was a pain. The shaft drive solved all those problems and runs a lot smoother. I can also change gears while pedaling, which you can't do with chain/derailers.
@GremlinSciences2 жыл бұрын
What's that last point? "I can also change gears while pedaling, which you can't do with chain/derailers." I'm pretty sure derailleurs can't change gears _unless_ you're pedaling. I'm right with you on everything else though. I especially like how shaft drive bikes don't need anything to be oiled or re-greased constantly, they can sit in storage for half the year when you can't ride and be taken right back for a ride without having to do any maintenance and it doesn't change how they ride at all. I used to ride bikes with chains and hated how if they sat for even a few weeks without being ridden the chain had to be cleaned and oiled or it would feel like I was towing a bus.
@tesla_tap Жыл бұрын
@@GremlinSciences Maybe it was the derailleur I used to have, but you couldn't apply any drive pressure when changing gears. With my shaft drive, I can be peddling with pressure and change gears. Might not be best for longevity but so far no problems in the 6 years I've had it.
@mp-xt2rg3 жыл бұрын
Driven drivetrain seems to have all the drawbacks of a shaft system with all the drawbacks of a chain system... With no notable positives
@penfold78003 жыл бұрын
Except smoother gear ratio changing, ...which didn't even get a mention in this video.
@xupyprttffnge76032 жыл бұрын
@@penfold7800 nuVinchi achieved that long ago, and to the perfect degree - that's CVT!
@c.t.murray36323 жыл бұрын
shaft drive is a great idea. I think it'll work for those people who are putting electric motors in their bicycles. I'm seeing a lot more of them
@ArmyGrunt19862 жыл бұрын
I was at one of the largest bike shops in my state. The salesman kept trying to sell me a shaftdrive, telling me how great they were and almost zero maintenance. That was his first mistake since fixing, tweaking and doing the maintenance is very enjoyable to me. The other reason I didn't get one is because every shaftdrive they had were like cruiser bikes that were hideous looking, either they don't make "high-performance" shaftdrive or that shop didn't carry them. I still wouldn't of a shaftdrive just because I can see the shaft getting easily bent or broken if I land wrong or crash into a tree or rock. I never had a problem with chains except for my shoelace getting wrapped up.
@jwrosenbury3 жыл бұрын
"What if you don't care about efficiency or weight?" Then you are buying the bike as a gift for someone you don't like.
@FalkonNightsdale3 жыл бұрын
Or, most likely: You are neither racer, neither MAMIL...
@perwestermark89203 жыл бұрын
When having had the bike gears frozen by sub-zero rain, a drive shsft might be a good idea. Not all biking is the same.
@jwrosenbury3 жыл бұрын
@@perwestermark8920 Sub-zero rain? Isn't that called snow? Yes, freezing rain happens (very rarely). But you can't bike in it. Not unless you can solve the problem of traction on the wet ice surface you're riding on. Still, you are thinking outside the box and that's good. So we now have two reasons to buy this bike.
@perwestermark89203 жыл бұрын
@@jwrosenbury No, water can be liquid at subzero temperatures and freeze when it hits something. Traction isn't a problem. My tungsten-carbide studs handles ice just fine. The only surface it doesn't work well on is wet, semi-melting ice soft as cheese. The surface is too slick for the rubber and the ice is too soft for the studs. Teflon-coated wires and hydraulic brakes works quite well. But what gears I end up with seems to be a bit hit and miss. Edit: worst is of course when I end up between two gears.
@TheKing-fp5dd3 жыл бұрын
The traditional (chain) system, however, is the most perfect way to transform the energy for both bicycle and motorcycle.
@RNA0ROGER3 жыл бұрын
They scale pretty poorly eg road cars
@percyfaith113 жыл бұрын
I think BMW motorcycle shaft drives prove you wrong.
@iankirven27113 жыл бұрын
Nah, chains are just a really good balance between cost, simplicity and efficiency
@robertheinkel62252 жыл бұрын
@@percyfaith11 Have you looked at the maintenance frequency required for that shaft drive?
@percyfaith112 жыл бұрын
@@robertheinkel6225 No, is it onerous?
@kingjames48863 жыл бұрын
"there's not much data on this... so I'm just going to make a bunch of assumptions."
@JaggersLips3 жыл бұрын
Can’t wait to wear flared jeans while I’m shredding without any fear at all .
@ME-hm7zm3 жыл бұрын
All I can think of is the vast array of places gunk can get in on that thing.
@trillrifaxegrindor44113 жыл бұрын
its a cutaway to show you how it works,they are 100% enclosed
@ThankYouESM3 жыл бұрын
Pedal assist seems like a far better solution.
@24kJames9 ай бұрын
You might have considered interviewing or researching amongst people that own and ride a shaft driven bike. I've owned a Dynamic Super 8 and currently ride an Incline branded version of the same frame, both ridden with a Shimano Nexus 8 IGH. I loved the bike from the start, which was about 5 years ago. In the second year I added an all in one front hub motor, allowing 5 minute conversion anytime, but it's been rare times that I swapped back to the stock front wheel. No wires, no sensors, I absolutely love the FHM. The motor assistance compounds the weight issue, while at the same time resolving it, and other downsides you mention. It's makes for a fantastic ride around town. In the winter I swap on my carbide studded 700c x 35 tires and enjoy immensely the traction benefits of the all wheel drive! It's really a fantastic combination, the IGH, plus FHM, plus shaft drive. There is a market for shaft driven bicycles, and I found extensive market research online indicating an upward trend, back in the first year or two I had mine. I really treasure my shaft driven bicycle. Thanks for the well produced video. I'm considering subscribing but will watch a few more videos first. Cheers!
@got2kittys3 жыл бұрын
Motorcycle racers use chains, due to a power loss with shaft drives.
@trevorjameson32133 жыл бұрын
Right.. It was making me tired just watching this video of people peddling a bike with a Shaft Drive! Two 90 degree turns, one at the crank and one at the rear wheel, that is not good for efficiency, no matter how well it's made. With a chain drive, you have pretty much direct application of torque to the rear wheel, it's a perfect setup. Belts would be ok, but require being somewhat tight, therefore loosing efficiency. Plus some of the torque is lost in belt stretch as torque is applied.
@michaelb.421124 ай бұрын
This is how my Kawasaki Vulcan moves, it uses a shaft drive and I LOVE it. It is worry free, no maintenance and I can't feel the difference at all between chain, belt, and shaft.
@maxk43243 жыл бұрын
3:24 how does an improvement in the quality of chains and belts affect the efficiency rating of shaft drives? Mathematically it makes no sense to me, the efficiency ratings are not a relative measurement between drive trains but a measure of input vs output. Unless you are defining efficiency in some wierd way.
@matteobarsanti81393 жыл бұрын
He's making a comparasion, he's supposing (idk if that's true) that shaft drive efficiency didn't change since the date of the experiment although chains and belts efficiency did improve thanks to better lubricants and build quality apparently so the difference in the efficiencies of a shaft driven bike vs a chain driven one is even higher today than it was back when the experiment was made
@maxk43243 жыл бұрын
@@matteobarsanti8139 that's not efficiency though. The efficiency of shaft drives did not change, which is what he claimed. Regardless the claim is a bit misleading because it only holds true for the case of bikes. The only reason shaft drives aren't efficient on bikes is due to the lack of rigid support necessitated by the weight restrictions. In heavy machinery shaft and gear drives are the most efficient means of mechanical power transmission and beat belts and chains with out question.
@aniquinstark43473 жыл бұрын
I just wish the whole transmission could be effectively sealed off
@ThankYouESM3 жыл бұрын
Pedal assist seems like a far better solution.
@rafbuelens49083 жыл бұрын
Just get an internal hub transmission like shimano alfine.
@rafbuelens49083 жыл бұрын
@Alfred Wedmore you can use a belt with the internal gear box. That's really low maintenance. Only downside is that you need a frame that can "open up" to put the belt on. Might make the frame a bit less stiff.
@ihavenoideahere3 жыл бұрын
You want a sealed transmission? Check this out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWScoIWVbLuqnJo
@PJSproductions977 ай бұрын
My college had one of those things where you could rent a city bike off a rack, ride it around, and then just return it to another rack somewhere else. They all had shaft drives, but I imagine that's because less exposed chains meant you didn't have to worry about stranger users messing with them or getting caught in them.
@EdouardTavinor3 жыл бұрын
Does anyone have any figures for the efficiency of a chain drive in gears where the chain isn't totally straight? For example middle gear at the front and smallest or largest gear at the back. And what happens to the efficiency if the chain isn't oiled and cleaned regularly?
@penfold78003 жыл бұрын
That new system is a much more efficient method of switching between gearing ratios, but the only problem is that it is too easy for it to get clogged up because the ratio cog array attached to the rear cycle wheel is unprotected from crud from the riding surface. It might work well on a specially designed recumbent bike though.
@fallenhobbit65543 жыл бұрын
The problem with this going forward is the best application would be road bikes but those guys are obsessed with simplicity and light weight.... so nope.
@inlovewithgoats10923 жыл бұрын
How is this best for road bikes? From all I've heard, these are way slower than a derailleur. And speed is kinda what road bikes are for....
@awellner32853 жыл бұрын
Chains have less friction and weigh much less than an axle.
@melancholybrocoli98683 жыл бұрын
As an engineering student, the way you measured efficiency is way off.
@sanderleijnen48002 жыл бұрын
I imagine these might also have an explosion safety factor in specific industry settings because you have no metal chain skipping over metal sprockets and it's all very contained and isolated. So in places you can't drive your car or use a conventional bike, these could potentially be handy?
@dylanmorgan55893 жыл бұрын
I was planning on building a shaft bike from scratch. My idea was that a BMZ trick bike shouldn't have an exposed chain and gears due to the grinding and constant impacts. I'm tired of breaking the front chain ring so i thought a shaft drive would keep it all inside. It's perfect for BMX because it's just one gear and the frames are typically stiff steel frames anyway. I was going to use a carbon fiber shaft and carbon wheels to make up the weight difference and to add strength to the shaft. So far my major hurtles are the difficulty of tig welding. It's freaken hard. And now it's harder because i now know that I'm not original.
@quillaja3 жыл бұрын
Almost no one is "original". Keep going. Sometimes a thing is worth doing simply for the satisfaction of doing it and learning along the way. In the end you'll still have a super cool bike, and have built it yourself!
@tobyvision2 жыл бұрын
Shaft drive bikes were built almost 200 years ago. It's almost impossible to think of any new idea for bicycles. Seriously, the USA originally had one patent office just for bicycles and one for EVERYTHING else. But you might be the one to crack the case.
@shannontrainer58573 жыл бұрын
Keep in mind that belt drives also require pinpoint tensioning and alignment, as well as spray-on silicone lubricant.
@ZoidPickle2 жыл бұрын
Every idea starts somewhere. Its a massive engineering change. People didn't think discbrakes would Catch on. I still ride a Univega from 1992. Shimano gears are just so good. Shaft Drive is tricky, its clunky on motorbikes. Nice video. Thanks 👍
@luke_fabis2 жыл бұрын
Sorry to be pedantic, but at 5:52, I think you meant a shaft system needs to be built with low tolerances. As precision goes up, tolerances go down. A tolerance is basically how much you're allowed to deviate from the nominal dimension.
@jc2382 жыл бұрын
I presume the final aim of these drives will be for electric bikes where extra weight and lower efficiency can be overcome with good motor systems.
@outisnemo8443 Жыл бұрын
Well, in the future all electrically driven vehicles will exclusively have frictionless electromagnetic couplings rather than chains, belts, or shafts, but perhaps shafts will be used for a period before this.
@securi-t2 жыл бұрын
Changing direction in a drive train takes more energy than you would think. This is one reason front wheel drive cars with traverse engines are typically more efficient than similarly outfitted RWD cars with longitudinal engines.
@oystercatcher9433 жыл бұрын
Very interesting. Sounds like a very tall ask to beat chain drive. Reminds me of my experience with tubeless tyres. While with an optimum set up it was theoretically more efficient (even this isn't true here yet!) the downsides in achieving a good seal, especially at the road side made it a non-starters. It seems like for bikes there are a lot of downsides in performance and interchangeability. Seems like its only good for lower performance and safer no maintenance bikes. Children's bikes?
@GremlinSciences2 жыл бұрын
Sounds like a tall ask mostly because he's comparing an 1800's shaft-driven bike in unknown conditions to a 21st century derailleur bike that's perfectly maintained under lab conditions. Shaft-driven bikes have come a long way in the past century, they've even come a long way since the Allied military used them back in WW2. Shaft-drive is still less efficient than chain-drive, but not nearly as much as this video lets on, and are actually conditionally more efficient than chains and belts. Modern, high-end no-frills shafts (no fancy gearbox) can get 97% efficient power delivery _in all conditions and with minimal maintenance,_ while a similar chain-drive can expect 99% efficiency only under ideal conditions and can drop as low as 80% if you don't remember to clean and oil your chain after a muddy or dusty ride. Also, I'd like to point out that he tried to make it seem like a stiffer frame would only benefit shaft-drive when that stiffer frame also benefits chains and belts just as much, and the area where the stiffness is needed doesn't actually effect ride quality. The stiffness is only needed to make sure the shaft stays in alignment and the gears remain correctly meshed, that same stiffness also keeps chains and belts aligned so they don't skip or jam, and keeps the rear wheel pointed in the correct direction so you aren't riding cock-eyed.
@crelos35492 жыл бұрын
This perfectly explains the phrase: Don't fix it if it ain't broken
@onehourmusicbc3 жыл бұрын
I wonder how these shaft will cope with vibrations, and even on MTBs!
@johnmcauliffe88243 жыл бұрын
Or god forbid you're mountain biking and hit the shaft on something and bend it. Oh the inhumanity.
@ThankYouESM3 жыл бұрын
Pedal assist seems like a far better solution.
@Vi-pv3xi3 жыл бұрын
You need cv axle I guess
@onehourmusicbc3 жыл бұрын
@@Vi-pv3xi But wouldn't it have the weight penalty, and more important, increased cost tho
@Vi-pv3xi3 жыл бұрын
@@onehourmusicbc Yes. But without cv axle, the bike won't work well because MTBs flex a lot.
@mjsmjs79053 жыл бұрын
Chains and lubricants are the same today as they've always been.
@Shindinru3 жыл бұрын
No, not quite. 11 and 12 speed chains show a not insignificant improvement in longevity (around 4 times the longevity if I'm remembering correctly). Their efficiency and the improvement of lubricants is more incremental though. Which is what one would expect of a fully mature technology.
@All4Most2 жыл бұрын
You give all the percent efficiency comparing a circa 1900 early shaft drive bicycle test, then include some imagined increase in efficiency in derrailier chain drive just for 100 years of manufacturing production. Chain technology may have improved but new expensive sealed, bushed and self-lubricated chains are not miniaturized for use on bicycles. Then you add on top the improvement in chain oil lubrication to come to a final difference. Fair enough. But using the same logic, what about the known 100 years development and closer tolerances in gear design and accurate mass manufacture including CNC production? Then add the availability of many modern specialist low-friction surface coatings that can easily be applied to gears. Then likewise the new ranges of special high-pressure oils for gear lubrication? Then the improvement in mass manufactured self-lubricating ball and roller bearings that would now be used to maintain perfect shaft-drive gear tolerances. Take the perfect situation of a clean fully lubricated bicycle chain drive starting out. The moment the bicycle goes through a cloud of dust or mud we now have grinding-paste lubrication instead. The chain immediately starts drying out and wearing away. As there are only steel-rollers on steel-pins the chain is wearing away without continuous total-loss lubrication, so as the chain "stretches" with wear this only gets worse because the fit of the chain to the sprokets quickly deteriates in efficiency and exponentially increases wear on the sprockets as well. As wear is a sign of wasted energy then this says bicycle chains suffer a high AVERAGE rate of inefficency over their small lifetime. But regular lubricated gears can be maintenance-free for many 10’s of times the lifetime of chains, remain 100% grit-free, and therefore in reality may only suffer a slightly less AVERAGE efficiency than chains or NONE at all. Like almost ALL modern products the real reasons bicycles are not made with gears is 1) the initial cost, but more importantly 2) the chain system is the only important part left on the modern bicycle that requires expensive regular replacement, and 3) therefore provides the best parts sales income for manufacturers AND 4) is the most important cause of bicycle deteriation and therefore new bicycle sales.
@GremlinSciences2 жыл бұрын
@@leeroyjenkins0 The shaft is very unlikely to need replacement within your lifetime. The was a series of motorbikes with shaft drive put into military service during WW2 for their improved reliability in adverse environments such as the sandy dunes of the Sahara, and as hard as those bikes were pushed, many of those that were not destroyed or locked away in museum exhibits are still on the roads today _with their original drive shafts._ That's with the machining technology of the 1940's, we've come a long way and can now make gears that mesh more efficiently and that even self-align, we can make the housings better sealed and use better lubricants under higher pressure to minimize friction and wear. We've even reached the point where all the tools and machines needed to make your own parts are consumer items and can be purchased for relatively cheap; you don't need a specialist shop to order you a new shaft should yours ever break, you can mill one yourself at home for less than $10.
@pugnate6662 жыл бұрын
From an engineer: The Driven Drivetrain is packed with design elements that necessitate a redesign, high complexity or crazy materials to work. So the possibilities I see are: 1. It gets redesigned until the actual selling point is lost. 2. The problems caused by the design intent lead to a very complex product, with a lot of moving parts, therefore low efficiency/high cost/low reliability. 3. Alternatively they try to solve those issues with the amazing tools of material science, so new and untested materials, and parts that are very expensive. Really sorry, but the design looks a bit like an Indigogo scam. Nevertheless, they might pull it off and create a revolutionary product. Can't know until you tried ^^
@The_Real_JN3 жыл бұрын
This is literally just people trying to reinvent the wheel
@OnerousEthic3 жыл бұрын
No! No no no! “Figuratively”, yes. “Literally”, no! You are literally wrong on this one.
@The_Real_JN3 жыл бұрын
@@OnerousEthic you seem fun at parties
@todo96333 жыл бұрын
Funny, they're doing that too with airless tires. Those won't see very much success either due to inherent limitations.
@fidelcatsro69483 жыл бұрын
im actually inspired by your comment to make a square wheeled bicycle!
@tylerphuoc26533 жыл бұрын
@@fidelcatsro6948 If you were moving on perfectly circular bumps, a square wheel of the correct dimensions going over them would make for a fairly smooth ride, lol
@deathbyzergling2 жыл бұрын
Something to note though is that you're referencing against single speed which has perfect chainline. Cross-chained (even partially) loses a bit of efficiency. Roller bearings also are more efficient, and are used in shaft driven bikes (less give, which helps the meshing also be more precise.)
@interstellarsurfer3 жыл бұрын
Imagine being a bicyclist, and not learning how to adjust your derailleur. 🙄
3 жыл бұрын
Eh, if you are a casual cyclist on an Omafiets, you don't need to be able to adjust your own derailleur.
@eckee3 жыл бұрын
BMW Motorrad using shaft drive on their bikes and they are pretty good and requires virtually no maintanence. I’m hopeful about shaft drive for the future with more advanced materials.
@TheAHYZ Жыл бұрын
Have shaft-drive ebike with Nexus7 hub and it is amazing, almost no maintenance (only lubrication, according to service manuals once a year/2k km, I do it even less often), works very well in winter during snow, salty mud, rain. Belt may be a good alternative for harsh conditions, but not derailleur. Efficiency loss is less important for e-bike, as it is anyway speed-restricted to 25 km/h. Derailleurs do and will dominate soft climate areas due to their low cost and higher efficiency.