Are Demons Evil? - A Frieren Beyond Journey's End Analysis

Happy 2024, everyone! ... Hopefully lol. Anyway, as a follow-up to my previous video, I'll share my thoughts on the subtle nuances of the demons in Frieren and their narrative role in the story. All while answering the question, "Are they even evil"?
Please watch this video by ‪@RoamingTrend‬. It is very good and goes into more detail analyzing the demons and the character's reactions to them: • Let's Talk About Demon... .
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[@KaiserShounen]

Hope you all enjoyed the video. Its not as big or bombastic as the other ones, but I promise that this year will be special for the channel. Stay tuned for next month! In the meantime, please share your thoughts on the topic.

[@trebrown8144]

Wow if you wanna suck demon cock just say so bro. No way you just had a 20min Glaze off. Demons aren't even cool and never will be😂😂 you're just tainted by anime making you think demons can give you powers or can be friends because of naruto. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

I wonder if Frieren could control all demons as a new demon king if she just whipped out her power level and was like "Submit to me or I'll kill you." Of course, she wouldn't care to do that, but I wonder if it would work.

[@trebrown8144]

@@migarsormrapophis2755 ngl that idea sounds gay as shit

[@jaideepshekhar4621]

I would still say it puts them closer to animals. Animals + pride - empathy.

[@dinogt8477]

rat

[@decidueyezealot8611]

They're tragic monsters that will never understand why they're monsters, it's simply instinct to them

[@Yuki_Seraphim]

yeah, at least from where i see it, the demons aren't truly evil. They don't have emotions (at least in the same way humans have) that would actually make their "evil" be truly so (i personally believe that evil comes from emotion) calling a demon evil would be like calling a wolf, hyena or another predator "evil" because they killed (for food or pleasure) when in reality, they don't have a moral compass or a society or ethics, so most of our concepts and feelings from empathy would be completely alien to them. It would be humans imposing their anthropocentric views and values on other people. Although i don't have any qualms about the humans killing demons as they're an existential threat.

[@Xo-3130]

​@@Yuki_Seraphimwould a wildebeest weep for the lion they killed? The answer is no. That's how the relationship between the demons and the other races is.

[@carrot708]

The interesting part is Frieren knows this. That's why she hasn't devoted her life to hunting them down or anything. She's not some 'demon racist' who thinks they're all evil. That's how she knows that they have pride and that they have a strict moral code whrn it comes to magic.

[@Devin_Stromgren]

@@Yuki_Seraphim In the right circumstances predators such as wolves and hyenas can and do seem to feel empathy for what would normally be their prey species, such as when they're raised together in captivity. A better comparison to these demons would be hyper intelligent insects.

[@yamatonoryuujin4871]

​​@@andreadeluca9742 Not really they mimic what they understand to be emotions they don't really know what it is which is why they go out of their way to play with the humans sometimes downright making them suffer to see if it arises any feelings not just Empathy; as in they want to subject them to torture to see if it can make them feel joy or love or lust for that kind of activity like a Kink for Serial Killers others want to know what Normal is for humans.

[@Akeche]

Holding back is a weakness, it simply gets you killed against creatures that can't even fathom the concept of things like compassion and kindness.

[@snipermagoo]

Linie held back against Stark. She had no interest in killing him. Tbh of all the demons, she's the one I find inexplicable.

[@TyBe-uo4ud]

@@snipermagoo she probably would have killed him later, she just didn't see the need to do it then.

[@vendetta3941]

​@@snipermagooThey are like that to those they consider weak, if you have no mana, they will consider you lesser, to the point of your fate isn't their interest. Remember they were going to let Flama go because they thought she was below average in mana.

[@snipermagoo]

@@vendetta3941 Clearly nonsense or they wouldn't constantly be attacking humans.

[@tighegilmore9202]

@@snipermagoothey have an interest in spreading control over land and have violent tendencies. They attack humans for those reasons so its still possible that they dont actually care to fight those much weaker than them

[@CeliriaRose]

An interesting point I’d make. I wouldn’t say Frieren is particularly happy killing demons. She clearly believes demons are monsters and has no remorse in killing them but she shows very little pleasure in killing them either. The most we see is that one smile before going to kill Aura but that to me came across more as excitement for the fight against a truly powerful opponent than particular glee at the idea of killing Aura. In fact one of my favorite running aspects with Frieren is she often seems to give demons a chance in some cases. She gives Aura the chance to back off and leave, in various cases we see her verbally comment about confirming they are indeed monsters. For example against Aura when the idea that Himmel was dead an therefore Frieren shouldn’t need to worry about not using spells against the armors was brought up Frieren’s response was one of confirmation. Confirming that yes Aura was a monster who heeds to be killed. Same with the flashback based on Himmels request she backed down and let them have their opportunity to see how things played out. Despite her clear disdain and mistrust for demons based on moments like that Frieren seems to take a calm and rational approach to her hatred, and I think that were she to find a demon who didn’t show any desire to kill or fight and didn’t give some implication of their monstrous nature. If demons really evolved to a point where they could coexist. Then I think Frieren would let them live. I don’t think she actually expects it to happen but at the very least she seems open to the possibility which is why she bothers to confirm at all.

[@rottencandy2675]

I think that can evolve to co-exist. Even wolves were tamed once...it'll be hard, but it can work.

[@kyroscrow3418]

@@rottencandy2675 Yea but wolves actually have the parts of their brains that produces love hormones, which the demons seem to completely lack. That being said i have thought of the same thing, although less wolf and more machine, honestly it feels like the most sensible thing for demons too due is to just leave humans alone a sorta "You don't hunt me and i wont hunt you" mentality.

[@cirnotheicefairy3609]

@@kyroscrow3418 from my perspective, Demons have more in common with a spell than a beast. In that no matter how intelligent a demon is, no matter how introspective they are, no matter how aware of it they seem to be, they will always perform the base function of their existence, in that they will always "Kill Humans" no matter what. If a Demon was someday able to stop killing humans and move beyond being a Monster, then that means they simply stopped being a Demon.

[@DarwinAwardWinner]

Yeah, the "confirmation" part of her conversation with Aura (actually 2 confirmations; the first was when talking about her puppet soldiers) really struck me on re-watching, because it indicates that despite what she told Stark and Fern in the prison, Frieren was actually considering the possibility that Aura might repent in some way. In fact, perhaps that conversation with Stark and Fern was what instilled some doubt in her, and she felt she had to assuage that doubt before killing Aura.

[@CeliriaRose]

​@@DarwinAwardWinner i honestly don’t think Frieren has any real doubt or that it had nything to do with Stark and Fern’s conversation with her. I think it’s a case where she fully expects them to be monsters. If anything the one who might have influenced it is Himmel. His way of trying to see the good in people could have rubbed off and now even though she hates demons and doesn’t expect them to change she still confirms to herself just because it’s what Himmel would do. Additionally *moderate spoilers below for a later arc in the series. It also could be due to the fact that the demon king in some weird demonic way wanted to understand and coexist with humanity which lead to the war and a large chunk of humanity being killed since demons are incapable of actually understanding. But theoretically that case of him even having the desire could be what caused Frieren to start confirming to herself that demons are still monsters.

[@theplaguedoctor6271]

A human wonders why does a demon kill humans And a demon wonders why humans don't kill humans How ironic

[@jak4290]

Humans do kill humans even in the anime though..

[@theplaguedoctor6271]

@@jak4290 Yeah but I meant that humans have a justice system Which makes the weak equally important as the strong

[@noparuthirankate7895]

Where they find “human don’t kill human” all I see is human killing human 😑 like ww2 holocaust or israel palestine conflict

[@noparuthirankate7895]

And more tons of example

[@adamperdue3178]

I kinda feel like the demons are more like sapient anthro'd mosquitos. Doesn't matter how intelligent they are, or how cute they look, they're a fundamental threat by necessity, and we can't co-exist.

[@impulseelectrobrine1259]

It’s kind of like a lion/gazelle relationship

[@ganon1028]

I think its to do with how people view moral ambiguity, the idea that all moral ambiguity should be judged from the protagonists perspective and not a meta perspective Like a villain doesn't need to be redeemed or understood in the minds of the heroes to be morally interesting

[@davidford3115]

I tend to agree. Some of the most compelling villains are the ones that make you think. Take the Joker for example. Most incarnations make him a depraved hedonist that revels in carnage and destruction. I always preferred the 1960s TV version where he was more of a random goofball. Yes, he could murder, but he was just as likely to do an act of charity such as stop traffic to help an old lady cross the street. It was that complete chaotic randomness that kept you coming back for more because you just didn't know what he was going to do. Relating to your original point, this version forced Batman to examine what he truly believed. It is easy to put down a rabid dog like Heath Ledger's Joker. It is much harder to deal with someone who is less random and more ambiguous such as Joaquim Phoenix's Arthur Fleck or Cesar Romero's version of Joker.

[@DarwinAwardWinner]

The thing that really messes with me is that in the village flashback, Frieren was basically right about the demon girl, but she was right for the wrong reason. Her logic was that demons are liars and can't be trusted, therefore allowing the demon to stay in the village would only result in further tragedy. And she was right about both of those things: the demon accepted the village chief's offer of "atonement" despite obviously having no interest in such, and letting her stay resulted in tragedy. But the reason for the tragedy was not her lying, it was her total lack of understanding of how humans care about each other, even after death. She didn't understand why the mother still cared about her dead daughter, so she thought it was reasonable to give her a "replacement" daughter, and she didn't understand that the villagers would care about their dead chief, so she killed him in order to obtain said replacement daughter. The offer of a replacement daughter was "deceptive" in the sense that it was clearly motivated purely by self-presevation rather than any sympathy for the villagers or desire for atonement. But if that was the only problem with her offer, it probably would have turned out fine. Whatever her motivation, by all indications the demon was genuinely trying to make peace with the mother. Rather than deception, the "fatal flaw" that led to this demon's downfall was ignorance. So Frieren was right that it would end in tragedy, but she was wrong about why, and what really kills me is that I can't tell if Frieren or anyone else even realized the misunderstanding at the time. I guess she didn't, because she used this story as an example of demons being deceitful. It all shows that just as humans (on both sides of the screen) find the demon mentality cryptic, the demons likewise struggle to understand basic human concepts, despite being at least as intelligent as humans. Sure, they can deceive humans, but even with Lugner, whose name is literally German for "liar", his deceptions are as shallow as can be, because demons just don't understand what they're lying about. "Lord Lugner, what's a father?" "Who can say?" He truly doesn't understand humans any more than the demon girl in the flashback calling out "mother". (I think there's probably a comparison to be made to LLM AI chatbots, but that's a whole other essay.)

[@wombat4583]

This is extremely well written and I agree with everything. I find it ironic (nor sure if it's intentional or not by the creator), since Frieren herself is still a long way away from understanding humans. Elves just more closely align to humans than demons ono whatever scale or graph you make between species. I find it ironic for someone who regularly cannot understand human life, the condition, and her impact on them judging another group so harshly. Well I can considering her village/family and all that, but from a narrativee point. Like she has enough of the same traits to empathize and blend in but she has been shown in the past and present that she can be as oblivious and cruel (I guess in a sense)in others ways.

[@DarwinAwardWinner]

​@@wombat4583 Hmm, I just realized, Frieren does know that demons can't comprehend human concepts like regard for the dead. It was Aura's lack of respect for the dead that pissed Frieren off during the fight. And also, Frieren IS right that the demon girl's deception was partly what led to the tragedy in her flashback, because the demon girl saying "it hurts" was what convinced the village chief to give her a chance at redemption in the first place, thus leading to all of what followed from that. So what I wrote in my comment above isn't 100% correct. There's a lot more subtlety to it.

[@jaideepshekhar4621]

Hey, I love that you picked up on these things. Demons are definitely a lot more complex. Still, I wouldn't say her decision to replace the lost daughter was pure. It was simply the one that most made sense (to her). Someone's about to kill you? Say "mother" word. Someone doesn't like you because you killed their daughter? Replace it. Live with some villagers? Nice source of food and protection for her. Another interesting thing is that she took that child as a hostage. Inspite of not understanding the value of a human life, it knew that that might prevent the humans from killing it. Do demons even understand the concept of deception? Do they understand what it means, or do they just use it instinctively because it works? The comparison to an LLM is perfectly apt. And even in this, I'm pretty sure there is a spectrum to this. Some demons have absolutely zero understanding, like that demon child. Some will have more. But none of them will actually value human life, anymore than a human will value an animal life. As for Frieren, I find it fascinating how from Frieren's perspective, they are purely evil. Since she herself doesn't quite understand humans, its obvious she wouldn't perfectly understand demons too.

[@DarwinAwardWinner]

@@jaideepshekhar4621 My interpretation of the hostage taking is that it was the demon falling back on its instincts. Same with calling out mother and deception. These are all instinctive, almost reflexive survival strategies that demons developed as they evolved from non-speaking monsters. The strategy of "making peace", in contrast, was not instinctive, it was something the demon child came up with using its intelligence. But when it went wrong, the demon didn't know what to do and fell back on its instincts. Perhaps this is why Luegner deserves the name "Liar": unlike other demons who lie instinctively, he has developed lying as a skill and lies with intentionality and purpose beyond mere survival.

[@kuronya3582]

Demons are evolved from one monster specie what used voice to lure humans so in very beginning of their existence they are lying in everything

[@MrQuantitySquare]

I still feel bad for Macht... He was genuinely trying to coexist with humans...

[@nott2355]

I like the idea tha demons are similar to AM from "I have no mouth and i must scream". "AM could not wander, AM could not wonder, AM could not belong. He could merely be. And so, with the innate loathing that all machines had always held for the weak, soft creatures who had built them, he had sought revenge." - demons have intelligence but it seems like they don't really use it for anything exept magic improvement and human killing. It doesn't look like they have any goal beyond genocide so their existance is just aimless

[@Mew-ip3iy]

The reason it feels aimless could be because the author simply wrote them that way, no further world building information except those which help drive the story and that's her writing skill. They, to me, are like preprogrammed chat bots with different personalities but little depth. Imagine the demons/monsters were depicted as actual living beings like those nature series ft. sir David Attenborough or like Dungeon Meshi. Off topic a bit, while their ability to poop or pee or sleep is not important but seeing a sleeping demon or a demon get diarrhea from a diarrhea spell would make them more interesting and relatable.

[@i.cs.zamodits]

​@@Mew-ip3iyBut why should the demons be more relatable or human like. They are meant to be monsters, so that's what they are, making them "more" isn't needed, or inherently more interesting. Everyone and their mother does the "race tought to be evil is actually just misunderstood" bullcrap, having a preprogrammed chatbot that is just that, no twists, no faux moral questions, exactly what it says on the tin is actually a breath of fresh air.

[@quincykunz3481]

Finally, some solid analysis on the topic that doesn't devolve into moralizing or yelling at people on twitter for being "woke" without making any arguments.

[@hollowman9410]

I have no respect for twitter users, regardless of their political beliefs, anyone who uses the platform on a daily basis is brain dead and unworthy of calling themselves human.

[@yunantheobserver6841]

Not evil. Simply incompatible with humanity.

[@Raigan_Avalon]

So, from a human perspective, evil.

[@noparuthirankate7895]

This is like tiger or lion who need to kill for food or in this case instinct

[@noparuthirankate7895]

Not their fault in this case they are just inferior to human like in real life animal, we kill we judge them because we are superior than them

[@superIdiotstudios2.0]

69th like

[@johnbowen5220]

@@Raigan_Avalon No. Something being incompatible with humanity doesn't mean it's evil. Thats like calling natural disasters evil. A tsunami will wipe out thousands of lives at once, but no one would call the wave evil when it isn't capable of understanding what wrong its doing. Demons in Frieren are quite literally incapable of understanding why what they're doing is wrong by human standards.

[@blaqueup]

A kind of element to demons in Frieren also is that while they are violent to people, and Aura's spell especially is pretty cruel, it's not gratuitous about it, if that makes any sense? It mostly manifests in violence, eating (as in the child demon) or just outright killing people (like Aura and her crew). It doesn't show them drawing out pain, or doing sexual assault, or torturing, or taking glee in it. Which to me adds a bit to what you note on the predatory element of it. It makes them more htan just an evil race to destory for doing evil things and more kind of straight-forward in being something physically dangerous to humans. I think this is actually straight-up the usual pitfall for "Always Chaotic Evil" races when they're written poorly. Is the authors often kind of try to ham-up the evil to make it justified. And as a result it kind of takes away the nuance like the alien mindset you note here.

[@Birthday888]

This is my problem with how Goblins are depicted in Goblin Slayer. Leaving aside the distasteful imagery, just from a biological standpoint, creatures who can only produce offspring with females of other races would die out so quickly. It's even more infuriating when the writer tries to handwave the shoddy worldbuilding by making the two creator gods of the world basically two DMs fighting over what tone their DnD campaign is (yes, this is a real thing, it's utterly infuriating to me). Just because you lampshade how nonsensical your world is doesn't make bad writing good.

[@blaqueup]

@Birthday888 So there's a concept that comes up in some media analysis stuff I follow of Watsonian or Doylist reasoning in a piece of media. Watsonian commentary is stuff that analyzes whether something is dumb in-setting. I think how you put it is like that. The two gods are dumb, and the in-setting logic is not sensical anyways for goblins in that setting. It's a show in the terms of the work why the wrok is being well, dumb. A Doylist comment is more like...why did the author choose to write it that way? Which in this case, is "Because it makes it easier ot hate goblins so no one feels bad that htey're slaughtered." This is often also where you get like, sexual asault as a way to make something edgier. In-universe justificaiton is kind of moot: the author creates the wrold and creates the world's logic. So whether it was needed to get what htey need kind of stands out to me. So kind of looping to Frieren, I think it shows both kind of takes working well. In a Watsonian take, demons are dangerous for being alien but violent. ANd kind of on the Doylist take...they're that way because it kind of says all it needs on itself and the author didn't think she had to go full edgelord to show it. It's quite cool. And I think she was more interested in like, language and sociopathy than just making fodder.

[@davidford3115]

@@Birthday888 Then how would you address the Xenomorphs from the Alien franchise? Because the goblins in Goblin Slayer are basically the same concept.

[@adamperdue3178]

@@Birthday888 There's tons of parasitic species that can only reproduce with the assistance of an unwilling 'helper'. Take the mosquito, for instance. There's also species who can only reproduce using a host of a specific species- or in some cases two (or more) specific species helping out at various stages of the life cycle. Toxoplasma Gondii for instance, infects a cat, where it can gestate. The cat can spread the parasite through its droppings, which then infect rodents. It can't survive for long in rodents, but it rewires their brains to make them seek out cats, who will then kill the rodents (and likely eat them), infecting the new cat. I fail to see how it's nonsensical writing, I suspect you just dislike the tone.

[@crimsonheaven1635]

I can't wait for the next season, imo the El Dorado arc is peak fantasy. Chad Denken, GOAT Marcht, Sigma Hero of the South, did nothing wrong Solitar... 👌

[@matthewhelland9258]

Personally I also can't wait for the time travel arc. It was short, but I loved how it was used to set up future conflicts, like that "saint of the end" demon and Rivale.

[@sentryion3106]

@@matthewhelland9258honestly I just want to see himmel glimpse of combat glory and that scene.

[@platogkrone7161]

@andreadeluca9742 The proper response to this seems to be "Based".

[@KennethArriola]

Read the manga, and the GOAT should be Solitar 😁

[@seanbaker-ortiz4981]

I think an interesting fact a lot of people seems to miss is that the demons are still definitely animals, they're just highly intelligent and sadistic (to our perspective) animals. A really good example of what I mean can be found in orcas, actually. They are about as intelligent as human teenagers and even have a wide variety of emotions, BUT they also like to go out of their way to launch seals into the sky. For fun. Like, orcas have been observed going out of their way when finding seals and try to trick them into getting close, only to launch the seals as high as possible into the sky, and watch them die. Then leave. To us humans, that kind of behavior is MESSED UP, but to the orcas? That was just a good bit of fun to brighten up the day. When thinking about demons like this, they make a lot more sense to me. Why are demons killing humans en masse? Because they're bored and to them, homicide sounds fun (not to mention potentially a good way to get stronger). Sure when put into a corner they'll drop the whole murder shitck, but that's largely because they're more focused on surviving at that point then anything else. TL;DR Demons are definitely animals, but they're closer to orcas than, say, wolves or primates

[@DeanStorm28]

100% this

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Or maybe they're killing humans as much as possible coz once they were peaceful until human colonists entered their lands & began killing them. Maybe Frieren is wrong re the "Demons".

[@platogkrone7161]

Humans do thing like that too, though.

[@iasked9392]

You can find them in psycopaths. However, (diagnosed) psycopaths arent really a norm. They dont tend to get emotional, but uses logical reasoning to 'understand' and manipulate others for their own benefit. They do have a sense of morality and a few emotions, but they cant put those emotions onto other people (they dont have emotional empathy). Its a minor spoiler, but demons dont understand the emotion 'guilt'. @@platogkrone7161

[@noparuthirankate7895]

@@platogkrone7161 reverse empathy 😂

[@thomaslacroix6011]

I think it's a strange scenario because demons do not have an evil personality, but they represent a force of evil: they are a society of evil values where good cannot survive without opposing them. Your actions can align with evil even if you aren't evil yourself, and that makes you an agent of evil, which is functionally no better than being actually consciously evil.

[@davidford3115]

Wow, I have not seen this coherent and straight forward point in a long time. It is refreshing to see that some people have the moral clarity to know that there IS such thing as objective Evil as opposed to the moral relativism today where people try to justify evil actions.

[@thomaslacroix6011]

@davidford3115 Thank you I've put conscious effort on brevity and concision, because that's the only way to actually make your point online without getting nitpicked on inconsequential tangents or on secondary/tertiary points. I think moral relativity is attractive because it promotes a "good enough" view of personal responsibilities, where striving to be good demands you to be the best version of yourself.

[@davidford3115]

@@thomaslacroix6011 I can't disagree with that. "Good enough" appeals to the laziness in human nature. PS, your point on brevity goes to what Cicero said: Brevity is the great charm of wit.

[@krraika1847]

A bit shorter than I expected but a decent video overall to address what watchers may say about the demons. Again, it's all about how you write your antagonists and how they impact the heroes, e.g. the Gurongi in KR Kuuga (look up "Kuuga lays down a merciless beating"). Also, watch out for anyone who says "Griffith did nothing wrong."

[@samuraitadpole5459]

No kidding because although rare some writers will call a character all types of evil names and say they did something atrocious but the character in question is a goofball, on the other hand some characters are seen doing evil, atrocious stuff but are treated like heroes or close friends of the mc, then there's the characters that wasn't written evil but somehow became more hated than the villain

[@dcincco]

My theory is that you would have to raise a demon from birth, in order to introduce them to morality.

[@salt7532]

cant wait until macht and solitar gets animated

[@dyingearth]

That's 1 cur away after the First Class Mage Examination arc we're currently on.

[@salt7532]

@@dyingearth 2, dont forget about the revolte arc

[@panpan1287]

It's hard to call them evil, since they're basically just wild animals. Humans are their prey, so they kill humans based on instinct. They're no different than a starving wolf going after a deer. It's not about right and wrong. It's about their nature being what drives them.

[@davidford3115]

I like hoe he used the Xenomorph from the Alien Franchise as Demons in this setting function essentially the same way minus the need for a host to gestate young in.

[@rainespells1273]

Yes and it’s not even to do with starving. Iirc it’s their instinct to be a natural predator and kill other beings. Like how a house cat will go after a mouse even if it’s well fed. And demons seem to act based on transactions, which to me makes them more ‘civilised’ than wild animals. Aura says that since Himmel is dead, Frieren doesn’t need to avoid doing things he didn’t like. Same with the girl who killed the family and tried to replace the daughter. I’m not caught up with the manga but it makes me think these are clues that if there’s to be a peace/coexistence with demons, it would have to be transaction-based.

[@zero69kage]

I saw myself in that demon child. When I was very young my parents took me to church. When the service was over and everyone was visiting with each other, a kid started picking on me. I felt backed into a corner, so I grabbed his arm and dug my nails into his skin. After we got separated, I was just left standing there with my hand covered in blood. I decided to clean off my hand by licking up the blood. It never occurred to me back then how much I must have looked like a complete psychopath. My mom stopped me and had me wash my hand in the bathroom. Growing up I sometimes heard that people were afraid of me. Kids often avoided me, and my parents became even more desperate to make me Christian. This of course had the opposite result. Eventually I ended up developing the dilution that I was an actual demon. Out of a combination of the way I was treated as well as the fact that I was autistic and transgender. I didn't have anyone to help me understand what was happening to me. Me being a demon ended up being what made the most sense at the time. Eventually I told my mom about it, and she believed me. She attempted to perform an exorcism on me. When that didn't work my parents threatened to kick me out on the streets. This was at a time when I didn't have a car, or a job, and had no idea how to support myself. Thankfully they didn't go through with it. But the fact that they even considered doing something like that broke me. I'm doing a lot better now, but I was trapped in a very bad mindset for a long time. The flashback with the demon child made me very uncomfortable. I want to make it clear that I love this series. I just want to express why that seen hit me the way that it did.

[@jannegrey593]

Understandable that you feel this way. And I'm very sorry to hear how you were treated. Sadly you're not the first person who I heard or saw or knew to be treated this way. I'm glad that you're in better place (mentally) now. I hope your life goes on without troubles. I might be simple cis-het guy, but I've been dealing with depression for over 20 years. And I take care of my disabled brother and father. Former my entire life, latter for over a decade at this point. So I know how it feels to be in very bad mental place, even though our experiences are very different. I genuinely wish you the very best.

[@zero69kage]

@@jannegrey593 thanks, I hope things go well for you too.

[@Ramanuj_Sarkar]

How did you get out of the mindset where you thought you were a demon? I feel like I have a similar problem now.

[@zero69kage]

@@Ramanuj_Sarkar I'm, honestly, not entirely sure. Despite coming to the conclusion that I was dilusanal, my parents never really did anything to actually address the problem. I kind of just dropped it as I got a better idea of what was actually happening to me. It took me a long time to figure myself out, and I'm still learning about all the ways I've been affected. The truth is, after all these years, I still don't feel human. For some reason, I can't see myself as one of them. I'm not sure if I was always like that, or if something simply broke inside me. I guess as a result I chose to embrace the idea of being a demon. It's a part of who I am, for better or worse. As long as you're not taking it to a dilusanal level, I don't really see anything wrong with not seeing yourself as human. And you're not alone, their's quite a few alterhuman groups. Personally, I recommend Voidpunk. It's a counterculture of people who have been dehumanized in some way and chose to embrace it. Out of all the communities I've seen, it's the most supportive. I hope that helps.

[@rainespells1273]

God. I’m sorry that happened to you. I’m also autistic and queer and growing up in my Buddhist country I was called a ‘miccha ditthi’ by teachers. It basically means ‘heretic’ or ‘misguided’ but miccha in my language is also just ‘monster.’ What a messed up thing to do. All because I questioned their assumptions (much of it about homophobia & racism) and refused to be forced into doing practices I didn’t want to. I’m still Buddhist on my own terms, still not doing what I don’t want to, I’m now confident in belief that they are the misguided ones.

[@user-tv2mc4lv7l]

There used to be lions in Europe. They died out during the last Ice Age, but we know early humans saw them because we've found paintings of them on cave walls. Lions are dangerous. They are powerful and vicious apex predators. But they're also beautiful for those very same reasons. With each one that dies, the world becomes a little less beautiful

[@GamerLudwig]

thank you for another great video making the deaths of the demons tragic rather than grand really fits with the series' calmer nature i had never really thought about that

[@periodicpete]

At least the bulk of the whining about demons has died down for the time being... Can't wait for it to pick up again next season

[@yoannbelleville7763]

Personally, when it come to evil races I'm partial to Tolkien's quote regarding the orcs in The Lord Of The Rings: "They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far". In short, despite being naturally evil, I don't think the demons in Frieren are nor should be irredeemable. For instance, had that demon child been older and more experienced, he could have lived in peace as he wanted by avoiding any action that would turn humans against him despite not understanding why. That's actually how real life psychopaths (a widely misunderstood word) lives in society. He wouldn't be good but he wouldn't be hurting people either.

[@Birthday888]

Here's the problem though. People with antisocial personality disorder do manage to integrate into society because they understand which actions will be punished and which aren't. The problem is that in our world, we don't have magic. Magic significantly changes the equation because that demon child, as it grows older and more experienced, also grows more powerful. And as it grows more powerful, the number of people that can feasibly punish it grows smaller and smaller. And at the same time, the demon child's reasons for peacefully co-existing with humans slowly reduce. If anything, a demon that kept it's head low and kept quietly building up power would probably be one of the more dangerous enemies Frieren could fight.

[@soulsurvivor8293]

Sadly, this would simply shift the goal posts for those who argue that "Evil Races are a Racist concept" to "Evil Races are an ableist concept". So rather than being a matter of prejudice against another rqce, it would be prejudice against people with a Mental Condition. Psychopathy among humans is in itself it's own proverbial can of worms, applying it to fictional media for those who lack the required media comprehension to separate it from reality is a whole crate of cans of worms by comparison. To be fair, you're not wrong in your assessment of Demons more or less simply having psychopathy. I just doubt it would matter to those who make those faux moral arguments online, as they already lack the ability to distinguish fiction from reality.

[@iasked9392]

hmmm...you make an interesting point. I know, ive just read the manga.

[@i.cs.zamodits]

There are no "real life psychopats", a diagnosis like that doesn't exist. The reason why it's misunderstood is because it's a pop culture term.

[@yoannbelleville7763]

@@i.cs.zamodits No, it's a medical term that has been deformed by pop culture. Essentially, it's a cerebral condition leading to an emotional and empathetic deficiency. To make it simple, people with psychopathy feels little to no emphathy towards others. This condition greately impact their social lives as it make it imposible for them to form meanningful relations (although, many fake relationships just to blend in in society). As for the pop culture deformation, no, psychopaths don't (usually) becomes sadistic killers in need to be put down. However, they are more likelly than most to act in their own interests at the detriment of others since they don't feel any sympathy for the people around them.

[@ColonelBragg]

The way I look at these demons is that if I had to live in a world where they existed I would without a doubt consider them "evil" and likely hate them.

[@verminsupreme6801]

8:00 In my head, Aura wasn’t displaying real emotions; she was just doing what the humans she killed did and begged for her life

[@xargonanaris2516]

But she didnt interact with Frieren (the only beeing that could save her, by removing the order) at all. No "Spare me", "Help", "I could be helpful against others ..." etc etc. Not even a single "Wait" to play for time (like the wire guy did earlier). If it would be "a play", she would have known, that she first need for Frieren to look at her, for it to have any effect. But she did nothing to get that. Hence, I think that reaction is genuine. Demons may be incapable of showing empathy, but they certainly show self-preservation. And the fear of dying is one of natures best method to teach any organism self-preservation.

[@MrKoobuh]

@@xargonanaris2516 Self preservation and aversion to death is essential to an organism's survival. It might have been more accurate to portray surprise and distress, rather than heartfelt groveling, bargaining and terror.

[@Dragonzord571]

So they're less Chaos and more Tyranids or Orcs? Neat.

[@chimera9818]

More orcs considering they are sapient but just don’t understand stuff from human pov

[@mattheww1930]

@@chimera9818 Actually I'd think of them more as Necrons funnily enough

[@aabluequeen56]

Bro they wipe out 2/3 human population and slaughter every race so how it's less chaos than some orc lol

[@Xo-3130]

@@chimera9818 probably because the Orks are a sentient Bioweapon designed for war and only war. Any concept that doesn't aid in war is at best seen as weird side hobby to them.

[@huntermad5668]

Why Necron? They are perfectly capable of emotions like Human (the higher ones at least nowadays). They were not some super engineered spiece like Eldar. The Necron who had few reset like Silent King could totally understand and plan around human

[@leslierahming1483]

This whole debate will end with the age old story telling advice of its how you use the trope/element that determines weather its good or bad. I men looking at JJK the cursed spirits are similar to demons and are technically more evil than demons because of the way they are manifested (you know beng the literal embodiment of negative emotions). Even though literal malice incarnate is there baseline they still find ways to have depth and be complex because of what there actions and how they affect others. As a side note has anyone else as of late found hyper intelligent (sometimes)natural human predators cool weather its casilvanias vampires, frierens demons, some cures spirits, or even some physic pokemon. They just have such a menacing vibe going for them

[@ajeetchoudhary6645]

Demon in frieren is evil if a animal if who hunts its prey is evil No one say a lion is evil if he hunts a deer

[@trinstonmichaels7062]

The different between demons an animals is that demon get pleasure when they kill and do stuff that is does not help them survive.

[@besttank4274]

if their hot we give them a chance is the whole premise of this type of video tbh

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

So essentially, the demons are sociopaths.

[@KaiserShounen]

not sure if thats entirely accurate. but I have seen that interpretation before

[@neutronshiva2498]

no

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

@@neutronshiva2498 yes

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

@@KaiserShounen Considering in the context of the show, the demons have a full understanding of hierarchical dominance, but lack the concern or understanding as to why it is (to the humans of the show and the audience) socially unacceptable to kill people that happen to help you.

[@theplaguedoctor6271]

Yes But comparing anything human related to demons is wrong But it's why we call them animals When a wolf kills a rabbit Would he question the reason

[@KritoSkywaker]

That was a blast, Kaiser. I hope you'll have more plans to dish out regarding everything we care about. 😄

[@amabeljacinta8219]

Demons are predators in the way they 1.) are heavily driven by instincts to eat, deceive and lure humans 2.) have a social hierarchy akin to certain animals (monkeys, lions, ants etc.) if you look at this way, it explains their reason to master and study magic that upholds point 1. and 2. quite well. it's a instinctual trait that helps them become better predators but also maintains their societal balance. viewing them as animals wouldnt necessarily be wrong. the dungeon meshi manga has a myriad of monsters that trick and deceive humans that i think would be easily comparable to demons in frieren. for example, the last boss demon we encounter has an instinctual drive to grant and consume human desires. it lies, deceives and tricks so many people. however, the story heavily portrays him as a "force of nature" or a "beast driven by instincts". it certainly has feelings and intelligence. but i feel like its feelings are still very much primitive - like the demons we encounter in frieren. a demon population is also probably a natural order of the ecosystem they reside in. In our current world, the ecosystem has become unbalanced due to human waste and interference. We've become a sort of species that threatens the existence of other native species and the ecological balsnce of the earth. so in summary, i dont necessarily think they are evil. but its absolutely necessary for humans to view them as a threat. because in many worlds, its eat or be eaten

[@CrazyAce777777]

the depth to how demons are portrayed in Frieren is amazing and they're not a hive mind of evil beings. They all have their own ideals and goals and that with their dynamic with other humanoid races us what makes them amazing. The Golden Land arc will def be talked about for years once its released in anime form

[@sulpherbratigh7936]

Evil is ok as long as they are hot

[@somekindaokayguy]

yeah like qual

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

Demons aren't 'evil' in the barest sense because they lack the intentionality required to be evil. A storm that kills people isn't evil because it doesn't intend any harm. A person who accidentally and unknowingly kills people by pushing a red button that happens to set off a nuke isn't evil either, he's just stupid or bumbling or both. Cancer is the same way. The demons don't know what malice is, so they can't be malicious, but this is why I say they're only _barely_ not evil: clearly the average demon is hyper-intelligent, they really ought to have figured it out already using pure rationality, even if it's unintuitive to them. Someone get them a god-damn book on game theory or something. Also, it still totally makes sense for Frieren to hate them. Even if something lacks intentionallity, if it kills people you love, hating it is only natural, even if it isn't 'evil' by definition. Plenty of people hate cancer, for example. Would you begrudge them that? Hating something that hurts humans is good if it motivates you to prevent it from hurting humans. Also, all of that above assumes that other demons lack malice, as the one guy who turns things to gold did. It's entirely possible for a being that lacks empathy to enjoy causing pain, you don't need to _feel_ another's pain in order to understand it. That's why I'd argue animals like cats and orcas, that are advanced enough to have feelings, probably _are_ very slightly evil because they enjoy needlessly playing with their food.

[@matthewspencer2094]

Demons form hierarchy under the strongest in mana. I wanna know, could Serie have supplanted the demon king? If the king can order attacks, could a king also order a more benign approach? Do they have any loyalty to their own kind, or just to raw power? I originally assumed Serie was Flammes master, the demon king, and a demon. Was surprised when her cloaks tassles werent her horns.

[@siginotmylastname3969]

Great video! Yeah you're definitely the first to make me really want to watch it. Especially if what I read about the elf being compared to them as her foil goes further into why another very long lived species doesn't have the same problem with cooperating as a species and with humans as the demons do. Because to relate their behaviour to their lifespan and lack of reliance on family while having another species with a lot in common and not do that with elves would be a missed opportunity.

[@mikonyx7712]

That, really makes you understand how Demons can perceive Frieren as a monster. Because just like for humans, using our empathy in order to harm us, is the most offensive thing. Demons would take great offence in being killed by their own spells, because magic is what they value the most about themself, and Frieren seems to take some kind of pleasure in doing just that, considering how she tends to kill demons with their own spells, if she has the knowledge of said spells.

[@covenant05]

In regards to Aura's dilated eyes, I don't think that was out of terror but Moreso the will of her magic item enforcing itself on her since she lost the balance of scales. And eyes don't dilate like that, usually the hole in the middle expands or contract, what happened was like a kaleidoscope effect, which seems more magicky to me.

[@okupant880]

The Concept of evil for me, always has been a matter of choice. Something that doesn't have a choice inherently cannot be evil. As the wind, rain or snow, as earthquakes, landslides or tsunamis, or wild animals following their instincts they are not evil as long as there was no choice, no true intent and understanding of ones actions or the complete incapability of understanding it WITHOUT external sources preventing it (aka being a thing that cant choose to do good). The last part refers to mostly humans that are so twisted by their own design that they're barely human anymore. And the way I see the Demons in this show is as a purely evil race thats only a single step away from developing into one capable of actually understanding the concepts of good and evil and that comes down to empathy. They are at a point in time where a singular major push could allow them to actually evolve past the instincts that drive them and funnily enough I believe the fall of the demon king and their decline from apex predator could push them to it. In a situation where the choice is adapting or going extinct, they would need to band together to survive, which would in turn develop even if a weak sense, but still an understanding of empathy as a survival mechanism. And with that it would end their time as a truly pure evil race and bring them into the same category as humans, elves and the like. And i feel like the child demon showcases that the most, not only in her adaptability to the situation and clear attempt at self preservation, but even the attempt to make peace with the family of the child she killed, it was a lack of understanding and empathy that led to that outcome, which as sad as it is, probably could've been prevented (i mean that the whole teaching her thing could've worked, had the situation been slightly better).

[@davidford3115]

That could be an interesting storytelling development. They currently have no bonds of loyalty beyond a pecking order. But to truly develop first familial bonds would make for quite the moral conundrum. Would they only form bonds between specific individual demons based on actual kinship or would they possibly develop "Adoptional" bonds much like predator and prey that grew up together as siblings?

[@braddl9442]

They are AMMORAL, which can be mistaken for evil. They are like AI that follow their programing. They seem self aware, but it always seems like they would fail the turning test, like AI they follow their programing.

[@fionaroni]

haven’t watched yet but these doom fated monsters sound so cool!! it’s like u feel bad on one hand cause they are living beings living their life how they know how but at the same time they are destroy more lives in that process. so morally they can’t exist with other species but it’s still tragic

[@_vnfr]

theyre not malicious theyre just oppositional to humanity

[@kelvinsantiago7061]

I wonder of humans and demons are compatible to make hybrids either through intercourse or Frankenstein esque methods.

[@thenewguyinred]

Frankenstein methods are a more viable option as humans and demons are entirely different species. Unless Frieren runs on DND logic in which two entirely different species can mate and produce hybrid offspring.

[@kelvinsantiago7061]

@@thenewguyinred yeah I thought so, Frankenstein or some sort of tank born hybrid it will be then.

[@thenewguyinred]

@@kelvinsantiago7061 Maybe some great demon has a curse that can turn humans into half-demons.

[@kelvinsantiago7061]

@@thenewguyinred or perhaps a human wants to avoid death by becoming a half demon or hybrid

[@thenewguyinred]

@@kelvinsantiago7061 This series has a lot of potential of exploring these topics.

[@Harmonyboy222]

The only good demon is the death demon. -Supremacial elf race Frieren

[@ZeptionHellsing]

the amount of people saying that demons are not evil because they can still feel fear or cry is just incredible, nevermind the endless horde of headless once living humans she commanded and wanted to increase the number as if it was a game, sure sure they develop emotions just to be able to manipulate humans and sentient people more easily, they are so good manipulating people that even real people believe their lies even against the writers intent with the argument "the demon look like a young girl and cried when she was about to die, so she must be good" as if evil people can't cry... the level of alienation on those people mind is unbelievable. they believe that -evil humans- are not human and cannot have any human emotion at all.... *sigh* there for they see a demon cry and they go all "SHE NOT EVIL", the show makes very clear that demons are evil and why they are evil.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Once living humans who were trying to genocide the Demons in order to occupy their land perhaps? The Demons are the good Indigenes fighting an assymetrical war against Invaders/Colonisers/Human Imperialists perhaps?

[@henriquemedranosilva7142]

I wonder if any demon has created a magic, that created a "good" being. Like, a type of magic who could create creatures, and maybe make them different from their creator

[@alexsjarif]

I mean u don't say a lion is "evil" for hunting their prey just like we don't consider butchers as "evil" i don't think demons can be considered as "evil" but more like a treat that humans should get rid of cuz the fact that they could hurt us

[@doncoyote68]

A lion that hunts and eats humans is considered evil and is hunted down and killed. This is why lions only hunt humans in the rarest of circumstances.

[@maroonedinnavyblue2865]

Who’s the artist for the last song? The “My Favourite Things” lofi cover? Thanks!

[@KaiserShounen]

Nujabes Final View - Piano and Drums Cover by @yu-kinakamura

[@mister_r447]

They might not be animals but their goals and desires are still very animalistic. They could probably be trained/conditioned like a dog is. If it behaves well, receive a treat, if it behaves badly, it gets punished. If started from a young enough age it could probably be done.

[@Kanamo4781]

Demons are as evil as a tiger is to a bunny in my eyes.

[@Yosh1az]

Shut Up Demon **zoltraak** jk

[@person707]

Love the video! I think your views on the demons match up with my personal views on them too. Its much more interesting to have a tragically flawed race that simply cannot coexist as the enemy. The only justification for killing demons is that they kill humans to eat, and if youre looking from the human perspective, thats is a threat. But with no malice behind their actions, is it justified for humans to act maliciously against them? Such a neat moral dilemma. Im a bit tired of the constant morally grey, villain/hero trope. Sure, its generally more realistic, but there are situations where fundamentally 2 things cant coexist. Or even if they could it's out of the scope of possibility. I wouldnt be opposed to, at the end of the series, some hint that there is a chance that demons could have been redeemed and be capable of empathy en masse, and have Frieren grapple with that. I doubt it though since the theme already has a conflict and them expanding bringing something else in could stretch stuff out too much.

[@0333aaa]

I guess they don't have a rogue demon in the manga? I'm not saying that such a character would be a good guy but a demon that is a little too curious than hungry, could hint towards a possible evolution to a more amicable line of demons. The dealing devil's hehe.

[@KaiserShounen]

Maybe there is. Maybe not. 😏

[@MahiMahi-yu5jo]

This comment being made right when the next arc is El Dorado, which will be next season...

[@gabrielclark1425]

They did have one, it was called the Demon King.

[@huntermad5668]

His curiousity caused 1k years of war against the Demons, Humanity lost 1/3 of their territories... And everyone who knew about that consider it impossible as humanity would be long gone bedore the day he got the result

[@thenewguyinred]

If there was somehow a “good” demon, it would really turn Frieren’s worldview on its head.

[@underthedice1231]

Freiren's Demons are basically WH40K's Orc but individuals. On a philosophical level, they aren't immoral or even amoral. Their core inate axioms are just fundamentally different from other races. The show explores this with elves as well except with elves the difference exists but isn't contradictory. I think it's wrong to say demons don't have empathy. They clearly read emotions incredibly well. The software in which that info is run is just sooo different. (Basically reverse autist) The existence of their society and shared magic system indicates that they understand cooperation and value it. The kid demon case also shows they aren't unwilling to cooperate with humans imo. He was shamed into remedying a wrong. But the core moral axioms are so different that his attempt at a solution creates more harm. They are "paramoral." Their morality is parallel to that of other races.

[@viihufv7232]

Can you make a video on mar anime

[@xXxzeus99xXx]

i honestly love how the demons of frieren are presented.They are a completly alien race that is clearly dangerous and can't be left living but at the same time you can't really call evil since "evil" is a total human concept that is foreign to them. The tragic aspect you underline is something i didn't think about but now i can see how compelling it is and it's probably one of the reason why i love the el dorado arc. *SPOILER FROM THE MANGA* Just thinking about it; the priest who spoke to Macht and made him start to ask himself all his question and wanting to understand all these inexplicable concepts that humany had but he didn't is the perfect example of the ideas of this video. Just as the priest said it's "pitiful"; pity not for the sins of someone that does a terrible act; but pity for someone that is litterally incapable to understand why it is. All of this also makes me even more curious about what the manga will show us in the future and has already subtly hinted at with the Demon King and Schlacht and in part with Solitar. It's clear that the Demon King and Schlacht are in some way different from the other demon: the former is a Macht that was able to continue in his journey to find a way to coexhist for a lot more than him, and the latter is someone that has shown aspects that should be completely impossible for a demon to have: a desire to "save the demon race even a millenium from now" even if he has to die for it. Everything we know and have seen from demons tells us that nothing is more important for a demon that his own survival and here we have a demon that is seemingly ok with selfsacrifice. Then there is Solitar that when talking with Macht expresses sadness and even melancholy about not having been able to stop the Demon King in what she thought was an impossible quest to coexistence that ended up being the reason a lot of their friends died. All these subtle moments where we see demons expressing things they shoudn't be able to express really make me think about this series more that i should.

[@huntermad5668]

Those rare demons are likely result of their signature magics. Schlatch must have totally different mindset compare to all other demons without any exception because without that his future vision wouldn't work. The Demon King is still a mystery. But his magic should be quite strange seeing Serie couldn't win against him. Solitar is a rare case of Demon Study humans but she realize the impossibility of coexistence. She is not that far from typical Demon mindset anyway, just a evolution of that from studying humans

[@nulnoh219]

Can't blame a tiger for being a tiger tho...

[@shadowcreature9742]

Race of Johan Lieberts

[@0th_Law]

My main quibble with Frieren's Demons is that, from the perspective of... evolutionary sociology, so to speak, they really shouldn't be more than solitary hunters, stalking through humanoid society. That's the most plausible result and impetus for a species that, while sapient, lacks empathy, uses language primarily to manipulate prey, and doesn't even raise their own children. In contrast, the Demons as portrayed have a distinct culture and even managed to organize a kingdom of their own. That is, quite simply, not something that really _can_ be done by organisms who lack empathy. They wouldn't form societies because their only interactions with one another would be either competition over territory or mating. Or both, I guess.

[@med2904]

From evolutionary sociology's point of view, humans shouldn't create civilizations either. We should be living in tribes of up to 150 people. Big modern societies even seem harmful to our mental health. We didn't evolve to work as cogs in the economic machine of society. And yet, the vast majority of modern humans live in big cities. Just because it's more convenient and efficient for our physical comfort and survival. We've traded close social relationships of tribal communities for the efficiency of big societies with division of labor. And Frieren's demons could've done the same as fellow sapient species. They just traded their preferred solitary hunter lifestyle for the obvious advantage of working together in their version of society. Our human language skills didn't evolve for us to create songs, fictional stories, writing, accounting, or computer languages either. And yet we extensively use our language ability for those weird non-evolutionary purposes. So why can't demons use their "accidental" evolutionary acquisition of language from mimicking humans to achieve other things as well? Maybe using it for things other than deceiving humans feels unnatural for them. And it is reflected in their uncaring attitude towards each other and lack of understanding of some words they're using just to deceive humans. But it doesn't mean they can't use their language skills as a tool to create something they didn't specifically evolve for.

[@moeheil8839]

I dont like it cus i dont like seeing cute things die

[@belovedmarmot2803]

It isn't that the demons "understand relationships differently" it's that their understanding of relationship stops at the point where it is useful to hunt humans. Any emotion or sapience they exhibit is, at least, undermined by a dialectical relationship with human sapience. It is a relationship where a demons cognition is entirely reactionary to a human one. The only novel concept we see them manifest is an excessive pride in their magic, which fuels most of the "sapient" moments they have, and every internal monologue you claim is evidence for it. This is why Flamme says they're "monsters capable of speech" they are animals outside of their reactionary special cognition. They are essentially animals.

[@wombat4583]

What does that make Frieren narratively then? Or elves more generally. She isn't human. She can co-exist becasuse she chooses to. Her emotional and morals aren't fully align with humans but overlap enough even though she still doesn't feel like she understands them. Even though her lack of understanding and at times incapable of uderstanding has caused pain for others. In many ways she doesn't understand human morals and logic. She merely doesn't need to prey on humans and has a higher capacity to understand than demons, so can better adapt, but that adaptability required a lot of feedback and time - something she's had more of than most and still severely struggles.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

No more so than Humans I think. Demons are just the extreme Reflection of Humans.

[@pjmetzen3483]

9:58 This issue here is that most people aren’t approaching “evil” races as you are. The discussion isn’t about the tragedy that conflicts like this entail but is more a repeat of classic excuses for previous genocides in history. It’s disturbing at best and with certain people, it’s a mask off moment.

[@jadimatic1096]

All we would ask is that the demons at least make logical sense, show at least one demon overcoming their predator instincts, that would be enough and would only require a few minutes of a single episode to demonstrate, Even if every other demon ever shown is evil, showing that its possible but rare would better sell the idea of them as an intelligent but flawed species, the potential to coexist, but not anytime in the near future of the setting, instinct still too powerful for most of them to overcome.

[@sophustranquillitastv4468]

I don't know whether this is a good or bad choice the author choose to characterize demon like this, but I think the problem will come down to what how we define human apart from animal, if the answer come down to rationality, then how this series treat demons as existential antagonists rather than ideological one is strange. Demons are treated as rational beings in universe, it can only be make sense that in their moral system there's no good or bad rather than they didn't have capability to understand good or bad in general, the action itself might be irrational at the moment but they have to rationalize it afterward at least, if they can't do that they are not rational beings which then make the narrative on them inconsistent because they seem to be portrayed as extremely rational as you said. And we already know many fictional characters who are evil (or to some extent pure evil), with no empathy whatsoever, but they're not lacking rationality albeit their rationality are incompatible with what normal people understand due to some factor including them in themselves. If it come from rationality, the problem should be ideological not existential, rationality is a capability all rational being have but it can't really be formed in one way or another without learning, people come to adopt one way to rationalize thing over another due to their experience or deduction which also must have some experience on thing before hand, and this make the scene where the young demon kill her foster parents without morally understand what is she doing in any direction make it really a strange narrative choice. I am not saying this is a bad writing but it doesn't make much sense to me to make them like that. And even if we understand that scene as it is shown, isn't someone like Dio do basically the same and it doesn't make conflict not ideological.

[@LostWallet]

demon are not "evil" per say. does a lion evil for preying on the gazelle?

[@iasked9392]

no, but an orca is. When they decided they could launch a seal out in the sky and watch it die, for 'fun'.

[@LostWallet]

@@iasked9392 suprisingly, they never attack human unprovoke.

[@Mark_o_Helm]

Frieren probably could've bring the demons to submit to her with her mana and made them do her bidding.

[@bignoob2726]

U must not know how disloyal, powerful and dangerous demons are

[@Mark_o_Helm]

@@bignoob2726 they seem loyal to the most powerful mage. Frieren>Aura>Lügner>Draht,Linie. It could've worked, but probably demanded Frieren to keep a close eye on them.

[@bignoob2726]

@@Mark_o_Helm oh, U haven't read the manga. You'll see in season 2

[@Mark_o_Helm]

@@bignoob2726 I've read the manga until they left Äusserst. I will continue reading after i finish my third watch of the anime.😁

[@allenknight2444]

The only thing that makes them evil is their heightened magic; if they were fangless, had no way of fighting, or didn't eat humans, they wouldn't be considered evil. They existed long before humanity, alongside other monsters. Humanity is actually the odd ones out in a world where monsters eat monsters. Elves would probably considered evil in Token's book because they are cannibals and also have a taste for humans and hunt them. Does that make them evil, or is it simply their nature. Humans are the anomaly in this world; even Seire said it herself.

[@brendenmenardprincestrong3528]

You can't hide your magic. That's illegal 7:05

[@Lumberjack_king]

I mean they are predators it’s all instinct they are intelligent monsters but are still just monsters

[@henriquemedranosilva7142]

What is a monster?

[@Lumberjack_king]

@@henriquemedranosilva7142 idk

[@thenewguyinred]

The one thing that bothers me about the relation between humans and demons is that you don't get see the darker aspect of humanity. Humans are just as capable of committing acts just as heinous as demons commit, even worse so than demons because we can actually receive joy in committing such acts, and since demons are the enemy of humans in which dehumanization is our survival mechanism, what would be stopping us from taking some weaker demons and torturing them, seeing what makes them tick. A similar concept exists in the anime Shiki in which a local village is attacked by the vampiric shiki not out sadism but for sustenance, humans resorted to dehumanization and extremely ruthless methods to hunt down and kill shiki even torturing and experimenting on them. I'm not saying the series should go for the edgy Devilman type "humans are the true demons" route, but I would like to see more sides to nature of humans and demons that isn't just humans victims and demons victimizers.

[@i.cs.zamodits]

Why? Why would that matter? Humans CAN be assholes, but aren't, baseline just that. Demons are, the end. And something that isn't human can't be dehumanized. It's kind of interestig that everyone brings up the human capability to dehumanise other humans, but forgets the way more prevalent human tendency to anthropomorphise both non human living, and inanimate things. Humans will packbond with a roomba, humans will treat adult animals as human children, humans will ascribe human emotions to a rock with googly eyes. And apparently humans will insist that a sophisticated cartoon flytrap is human enought, that treating it as it is counts as dehumanization, fascinating. Demons, shiki whathevyou can't go trought dehumanization. What they are going trought is anthropomorphisation. It actually would be mice and even unique, if the anime never done what you are suggesting.

[@desinteresado125]

This was a good video, but i honestly can only think that the whole ''Are (blank) evil?'' argument kind of misses the point that, even if they were just animals, it kind of... doesn't matter, in the sense that most people in the moment would not be thinking about that? You kill them or you, your children, your family, or even your neighboors will die. It doesn't need to be that complex.

[@privatepessleneck]

personally imo it seems a little stupid they are both 'super smart and stuff' but somehow don't understand humans have feelings or something. I guess also cause they are supposed to be predators, but they are seriously lacking in risk assessment. For me it just is weird cause the 'super smart and cunning hunter' clashes with this ignorance to their primary quarry.

[@adamperdue3178]

Understanding of social dynamics is an evolved trait in humans, largely unrelated to intelligence (and in many cases negatively correlated). Many geniuses are commonly associated with being unable to understand human feelings- and people with autism specifically struggle to understand social interactions regardless of their intelligence. Those who are more intelligent can 'brute force' it a bit, but it won't be as effective as a regular person just naturally interacting with others. And that's with humans who are raised as humans by humans and who still share a great deal of human instincts with other humans.

[@wombat4583]

@@adamperdue3178 Frieren is an example of it. Over a thousand years and she's still clueless. Her effort hasn't been towards empathy or curiosity in connections, and her knowledge of human life isn't up to date. She realizes these descrepancies, cries at Himmel's funeral and then immediately isolates herself again. Demons are the same but with less capacity to engage to learn since they are natural enemies. In that way, I actually have more sympathy (narratively from a meta standpoint) for the demons than frieren - because she's had endless opportunities and nd has never taken it even passively.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Yes, Predators know their Prey & exercise caution. One Dire-Lion will not go for a Bull Auroch. It takes a Pack. Packs require co-operation. Co-operation requires Rationality & Compromise. The Demons have Alphas so they must have Pack Hierarchy. Wolves & Lions both care for their young. Care entails love or a semblance of it.

[@archiratee160]

.

[@antonk.653]

With all respect, this analysis video is not wrong but in details kind of wrong on some parts again, which triggers me to use my keyboard here. The video is inaccurate in its analysis, but mostly solid, 7/10. To counter some points at the beginning until 2:00, demons have a moral sense of right and wrong, that is just not dictated by human morals. Demons have a strong hierarchy with mana as their primary measuring stick, they are very strong in nature and therefore do not need to socialize and cooperate as much. They are just a (very intelligent) predatory species of humans. The question whether they are evil or not is trivial and therefore a clear Yes. The conflict is existential and unless humans can control demons on a wide scale, they cannot afford the luxury of "species conservation because they are intelligent and sentient". I also find it hard to accept why any other narrative than from humanity's perspective is even considered: For us humans, the human perspective is important and not any other. Until we ascend to Godhood where the universe becomes a sandbox to us, we must see to survive in this world, no other narrative has a place there. And again, until 3:20, demons know very well what they are doing, it is just not within the framework of humans and therefore wrong to attribute human characteristics to them. "Sentient" and "sapient" are irrelevant categories to determine whether a creature is evil or not, just switch demons out for aliens that are trying to destroy humans. Same thing.

[@kingsteel2972]

Nice comment

[@Justanothaguy]

But would it be wrong to smash Aura??? If they're functionally animals driven by instinct these are the real philophical questions!

[@henriquemedranosilva7142]

I mean, she is somewhat sentient and probably has a mostly formed mind,and I guess she their before could consent. So yes, you could smash her without it being SA, but she would need to want to do it, something demons don't do

[@thenewguyinred]

Depends on the ethics of beasteality.

[@bignoob2726]

The problem here is how you would smash Aura as a headless zombie doing her hidden

[@SlowV6Mustang]

I'd like to imagine a demon character who was nurtured by humans and overcame the nature of what a demon is, usually your surroundings is what makes you who you are instead of your genetics, or at least to an extent. I doubt we'll ever see a character like that though, as it seems almost written into their instincts and souls that they are monsters for the sake of the narrative, I can always have my own head canon though. I got to wonder what a demon's end goal would be, there seems to be no reason that they need to fight and kill humans to survive.

[@dewo277e9]

demons could probably never overcome such nature because they simply have no reason to, they are our predators, they are much stronger than us and biology urges them to hunt us for food, it would be like letting a pack of hamsters raise a cat, sooner How late will the animal remember that it has claws and fangs and then it will realize that the others do not You should not humanize your predator just because he can speak your language, because he will use it against you, a demon is like that criminal who attacks children and women because they are weaker, but when a stronger man immobilizes him he starts to cry, not because sadness, but rather he is imitating the pleas of the people he attacked.

[@thenewguyinred]

If there really was a “good” demon it would really turn Frieren’s worldview on its head.

[@caiodiniz7371]

Why did you call Frieren a human? Didn't you see the ears?!?

[@sc_wataru]

She is not human. She is an elf, a part of humanity. We can say she and humans have the same genus but different species. They made of flesh and blood. Demons are not. They are monsters, made out of mana. That is why when they die, they disappear.

[@dontpokethekenny]

Yes they are. They are not the human mutants from Demon Slayer, they are purely evil beings.

[@monohe4d380]

Y’all just ignore the fact that they’re intelligent and compare them to wolves and other predators. An intelligent creature capable of having emotions but not empathy is an evil psychopath. End of story. 😂

[@engineergaming3043]

"how many monsters do you have to kill until you commit mass extinction or genocide or even mass murder"-Me

[@unknownname8591]

Morality doesn't exist if there is no supreme being to dictate it. Without it there can only exist convenience and inconvenience.

[@thenewguyinred]

By the end of the series demons would either go extinct and fade into myth, or become enslaved by humanity, maybe human scientists find a way to pacify them by cutting off their horns or something to that extent. Demonkind was doomed from the start either way.

[@kris1123259]

"Villainous Race" is more apt name for them. A villain is just an obstacle for a hero to overcome, its an amoral label not a inmoral one

[@davidford3115]

At the end of the day, it all comes down to that point. I am a firm believer in the "Word of God", in that it is the author who defines the characters both heroes and villains, and if the author says they are irredeemable, then the author has set the foundation. All other outside analysis is simply an exercise in thought experiment.

[@thenewguyinred]

Doesn’t that make it more of an antagonist than a villain? Villains and antagonists are two different concepts believe it or not.

[@spookynigga3112]

the pain of being a manga reader is watching new fan discover the series and talk about stuff we already know

[@TshepoNkadimeng5]

Learning more about Demons! HERITIC!

[@Airwave2k2]

Fun Fact you have to do this video all over again when second season comes around ... guess you have foresight for new content.

[@giroromek8423]

Demons are trash, Frieren doesn't take pleasure in getting ride of them because it's a chore. But if noone take out the trash the place shall become unbearable.

[@DigiTism]

No. In the sense they are only hunting beings the way humans would hunt other animals. Yes. In the sense that humans think anything that is hostile to them is “enemy” at best and “evil” at worst. They don’t do anything “evil” in their acts like torture or something along those lines, with the exception of maybe one demon that it’s kind of implied.

[@pultulf2462]

morals are always subjective. You can theorize about objective morality, but in practice, it is always subjective by definition.

[@davidford3115]

Moral Relativism is how you get cruelties such as genocide and other crimes against humanity. When morals are subjective, then anything can be justified or rationalized. The greatest mass murders viewed themselves as morally right in doing their heinous acts.

[@panzermkii7675]

Suffer not the demon.

[@xikes]

Oh! Evil races are absolutely fine! I'm getting incredibly bored of the ever increasing prevalence of the morally-grey antagonists (and protagonists as well) in contemporary media. Some pretentious smartasses describe that as "interesting motivation", I call that: intellectual masturbation. Just because one's read some Dostoevsky and experienced some moral ambivalence, doesn't make one an expert on interesting and impactful story delivery. How about we take that moral ambivalence to the absolute limit and tell a story about entropy itself? How's that for "interesting motivations"?

[@RoamingTrend]

Good Luck! 🫡

[@KaiserShounen]

Thanks very much. Love your vids and I hope you keep doing what you're doing. If you ever wish to talk, let me know