Are Female Fantasy Writers & Female Fantasy Readers Destroying Science Fiction?

...or is the problem more around how Fantasy & SF are handled by publishers? In his latest 'Impositions' video, bookseller, SFF critic and historian Steve Andrews tries to answer these questions from the perspective of someone who has worked in the book trade for almost forty years. The answers may suprise you...
Music: steveholmes.bandcamp.com/ Steve Holmes (c)
#sciencefictionbooks #bookcollecting #sciencefiction #booktube #bookrecommendations #fantasybooks

[@davebrzeski]

I think it's symptomatic of the problem I've been seeing in all the commercial arts in the last several decades. As soon as big business gets there hands on something, risk-taking goes out the window, Be it the film industry, television, music, books, they all jump on whatever's selling well, and they proceed to do that thing to death to the point where diminishing returns finally kills it. Then they jump on whatever has broken through in the indie market against all odds, and the cycle begins anew.

[@saintdonoghue]

So glad you mentioned what I think is a key element here: the new generation of people actually taking jobs in publishing have a) never been booksellers, and b) never read widely or deeply in the genres they end up buying and representing. That can create an institutional ignorance that’s deadly.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Hi Steve, good to hear from you. Absolutely right. This is a MAJOR problem in publishing - I've worked with literally dozens of young people in bookselling (usually they hang around for a year max) who want to 'go into publishing'. I don't blame them, but they are inspired to go into it based on whatever is currently hot rather than based on a broader love of reading that goes beyond the obvious contemporary work and top level popular Classic Fiction. Have a good day!

[@8020Alive]

+1 - 🎉 correct 💯

[@salty-walt]

Great to hear from THE Steve Donoghue

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@salty-walt SD does sometimes comment here- when I get back to doing more mainstream literature, I'm sure he'll return regularly!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE COMMENTING: Please don't not make assumptions about what the answers I give to the questions this video asks before you've watched it- and watched it all- as my take on this issue may well be different to what you might instantly think. Also, before commenting, bear in mind that I am a book trade professional with some decades of experience and expertise, so if you post replies that don't account for this and respect the fact that I know what I'm talking about here, I'm liable to remove them- I see the book trade from the inside every day and have done for 39 years, so I've heard a lot of what you'd say to a non-trade worker a million times. Thanks. Re the thumbnail, this is a number of AI art 'sketches' I made of C L Moore's classic SF antiheroine Shambleau, from the eponymous story that launched the Northwest Smith sequence of stories currently available in the UK from Gollancz Masterworks as 'Northwest of Earth'. I shall be posting a video about Moore in a few weeks time. I couldn't quite get the cats-eye look I wanted but because I've always thought Shambleau is a woman of colour - based on the "berry brown" tone of her skin Moore describes - i felt this was an interesting enough take on this exotic extraterrestrial femme fatale.

[@thomasp6034]

My main gripe with bookstores and publishers is the bias towards contemporary writing, both in SF and in literary fiction. The classics section is overwhelmed by new stuff of highly variable quality. I suppose it's always been that way and I guess it's about space and what they think people want to read. But if that's the case, why is the second-hand book market so big? In my city, there are more second-hand book shops than new ones, which is wonderful from my perspective. Why don't publishers and new-book shops learn from this and republish some of the great works of SF and literary fiction that people clearly still want to read?

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Agreed-many thanks for your comment, spot on. There is an obsession with the 'New' and current- and this, as I've hinted in my video from a few weeks back ('Why the Modern SF you're reading isn't Modern') is down to the way we've been encouraged to think that what is around now is somehow superior to what was around in the past. Not always the case, as you you clearly agree. I know from running this channel and talking with other booktube friends who are far, far younger than me that once a reader reaches a certain stage of sophistication, they get more interested in pioneers, innovators and stylists: and all the arts now are stuck in the Postmodern era of the endlessly contemporary, when very little is new - the Novel relies on novelty, literally the 'new' to keep it valid. So I cover a lot of old stuff here, for eventually, you realise that at any given now, there's a very limited amount of truly great material. I'm not sure what you are seeing in the 'Classics' section where you are, but of course Classics strictly speaking refers to Greek and Roman works from the Classical age. Most readers who use 'Classics' mean 17th-19th century novels of impeccable provenance, which is confusing. These days, publishers put Classic on pretty much everything, invalidating it as a term- it's so overused...and don't start me about the contemporary usage of 'Iconic', which is being dropped constantly, when it's a rarefied thing only.

[@thomasp6034]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal Yes, I guess I mean Golden Age/New Wave SF, or modern classics as opposed to classics of the ancient world. Although come to think of it, bookstores should stock more Classics with a capital C as well. I am from New Zealand and if I want to buy certain authors - like a lot of those you mention! - often the only option is to order from overseas, which is hugely expensive and they take months to get here.

[@mike-williams]

Bookshops often don't self-curate and rely on distributors sending them X shelves of SF and Fantasy. If there aren't movie/TV tie-ins (e.g. Dune) or Masterworks selections then there's basically no old content.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@mike-williams I'm not sure where you live Mike and what you are basing this comment on, but in the UK this is not true except in the case of WH Smith, which has central buying. Pretty much everyone else in the UK does curate their stock, but the issue is (1) how much do they know about the genres (2) how much space and budget they have for them and (3) how much of their market do they perceive as being SFF. I would agree, however, that generally, the number of booksellers with more than a basic working knowledge of SFF is relatively small. Can't speak for the USA.

[@mike-williams]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal Australia and I've spoken to a few UK booksellers when I was there for a few years who said they left it up to distributors. I got to visit a lot of bookshops as I travelled through every single county in GB

[@personmcpersonperson2893]

I'm a rookie in the SF genre (I became interested in the classics only a year ago), so I always appreciate these videos. Your content is immensely helpful at contextualizing each book on my list and enhances the enjoyment I get out of reading them. Thanks for providing your insights, looking forward to the upcoming videos

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Very, very kind of you. I believe context is everything in appreciating and enjoying and finding SF that will blow the mind. I will keep on, since people like yourself can see what I'm trying to do here.

[@MakeMeAmerican1812]

Now I have watched the video I think you are absolutely correct on almost everything except you aren’t harsh enough on the publishers. They haven’t just strangled SF, they’ve murdered it. I don’t want to be too controversial so won’t say too much more except to note that one of the largest bookshops in the UK, WH Smith’s, has a “Sci-Fi, Fantasy and Horror” section and it’s every bit as terrible as you imagine.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Well, I actually agree: I think standards in SF publishing have declined enormously- there is very little true scholarship or curating of SF going on now as far as I can tell-sad.

[@guyriddihough]

I find I am buying all my science fiction from secondhand book stores or secondhand book sellers online. I very rarely buy modern science fiction and when I do I find it does not scratch my SF itch. I started reading SF in the middle 1970s and I have been forever spoilt by that experience.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I completely understand. SF has been in crisis since the early 90s and there is effectively nothing going on now- very little is being published, there is an excessive focus on Identity Politics, there is too much bad Space Opera and a generally low level of literacy and sophistication among the majority of the younger readership. There is more and better SF being published under the guise of general fiction now than as Genre Fiction.

[@nightmarishcompositions4536]

Female fantasy authors from the 1900's were in a whole different ballpark compared to many of the ones we have today. Stuff like Song of the Lioness, Paksenarrion, Death Gate, Pern, Deryni, Earthsea, Devvery, the works of Patricia Mckillip and Diana Wynne Jones, etc. A lot of modern fantasy by female authors is either cringy YA romance or generic girlboss who hates all men type stories. There's exceptions to the rule that I really enjoy of course, but the most popular examples all seem to follow the same terrible trends.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Totally. This is why I pretty much never read Fantasy, as it is nothing now but soulless cliche.

[@neiltaylor513]

@@outlawbookselleroriginalbut, both sci-fi and fantasy have massive back logs of books, if we don’t like modern books, there is massive past library

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@neiltaylor513 Yes, and that's exactly what I look at here must of the time. But that doesn't stop me being massively concerned about the effect on the genres and how the current situation is unlikely yo prompt a renaissance of truly great material. This now seems very, very unlikely, due to the state of the publishing and low expectations of the newer readership.

[@psychonaut5921]

I was wondering about one thing: Are there still enough physical bookstores around for this genre separation to be an issue? I can't judge from where I live, a large city with a population of about 8 million, where the bookstore/inhabitant ratio is about 1 bookstore per 1 million inhabitants(if that...), and where most of the (few) bookstores we had didn't survive the pandemic. But the last time I was in NYC I had a tough time finding any bookstores in Manhattan; I did come upon a couple, but in the 90's I'd walk down 5th Av. and there was almost a large one in every block. Now they've been taken over by other businesses, one of them became a Sephora store, etc. So I guess it's pretty much a global phenomenon, right? We mostly buy our books online now, even specialised sellers like you make most deals over the internet. Anyway, just wondering how much of the actual physical book buying experience is left nowadays... Never cared much for Fantasy, I'm afraid, was always an SF reader. Not that I didn't enjoy some of the "crossovers", like a few of the Roger Zelazny books and others. But elves, gnomes and dragons never did it for me, even though I was a huge Middle Ages buff for a long time. But I did read the entire LOTR in a couple of days back when I was 18. Absolutely loved it, too. I've read some very good books written by women over the years, including non-fiction. Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror is still one of the best books I've ever read. But all these YA books women keep churning out by the thousands these days don't seem to be up to the same standard set by those great female writers of the past. And it's all tainted by the all-pervasive ID tropes and Feminist propaganda that holds contemporary culture hostage these days. Yeah, I know, times are changing and all that. But it's over the top and excessive, almost fanatical, like so much in these extreme times. Too bad us humans can't hibernate from time to time...

[@joyfulgirl91]

I love bookstores but for the past ten years the ones near me have only been great for children’s books, and all other “browsing” is online. I feel the same way watching this video, unsure where bookstores have this influence over readers

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Tuchman has a long critically acclaimed career behind her. By the way, I'm only an online seller of odd things I'm parting with, I am a 'real' bookseller who works in a physical bookshop. Anyone else calling themselves a bookseller isn't one in the same way. But yes, there are far fewer bookshops than there were and many of the newer ones are way too small to make any real difference.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Children's books have boomed hugely in the last 20 years and have generally improved to an incredibly high standard- but the enthusiasm for them and the relatively new YA category have infected young readers to an extent that by the age of thirty, most of them are ten years behind the generation ahead of them in what they read. People used to start reading- for example -Penguin Modern Classics- by their early twenties. Now, they don't go near them until much later...generalised statement, I know, but this is what I observe every week while at work.

[@psychonaut5921]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I recently watched a video about bookshops in London. Seems like most shops are really small, but there's quite a lot of them, which kind of makes up for it. Apparently Foyle's is the last of the large bookstores. Anyway, you guys are so lucky to have that many...{{envy!}}

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@psychonaut5921 Most bookshops in the UK are small now. Similarly large to Foyles is Waterstones Piccadilly, five minutes walk from the former. From 1982 to the end of the century- the Golden Age of Bookselling in the UK, large chain shops became very common, sparked by the birth of Waterstones, the reaction of Dillions and the non-existence of the internet, which helped kill range bookselling to a large degree in this country. The end of the Net Book Agreement in 1995 (which lasted for a century and kept book prices the same everywhere) was also a good thing that ended because of the internet. I will be doing a video about this sometime. I was part of this revolution and boy, do I miss it.

[@MakeMeAmerican1812]

Apologies for commenting before watching the video but Stephen you really are spoiling us with these videos.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I do what I can- just spoil me in return by watching as many as you can, Outlaw Bookseller needs to grow way beyond its current status. Thanks for the heartwarming words.

[@neiltaylor513]

Good video, it is something I’ve being thinking for a while, when I look at new books published every month, the majority are either female written or female characters. There was a article in the Telegraph last week, that Publishers are looking at female and diverse authors, discrimination is discrimination.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Exactly. You don't 'rebalance' the idea of past discrimination against one supposed/assumed category by overpublishing another, instead, a good editor will select on literary merit- in theory. But of course publishing is a business that is increasingly focused on a quick buck!

[@silex9837]

Thank you for this very important video. I think a female writer who is massively underappreciated and neglected is Tanith Lee. She straddled the line between SF and Fantasy, as you know. Despite being prolific, she was eclectic and had a sophisticated style. She deserves to be among the usual suspects, Angela Carter, etc., I think. Wondering why she hasn't been 'rediscovered' by the publishing industry.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, Lee was very good. I've only done a single video about her here, in my '100 Must Read Fantasy Novels' series. She is ripe for reissue, but many of today's readers are disinterested in pioneers, thinking that only 'Now' will be of quality and innovative, when the opposite is so often the case.

[@vintagesf]

I wonder about the impact of movies and tv on written sf. Most new sf I read reads like a script, often action oriented. As a bookseller, how often do people ask for books like Star Wars or Matrix or Avatar or other popular movies and tv? I think this tale wagging the dog effect on written sf is more damaging than the demand of fantasy.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Written SF has been hamstrung by people's expectations of SF based on what people have watched on screens since the 1950s, I think. TV and Film SF are still decades behind written SF generally speaking with very few expectations. The real problem comes when SF is written to resemble Screen-based SF and people think that's all it is. But there is no doubt that the linking of SF and F in publishing budgets is a drain on the promotion of SF. I've seen this growing for almost 40 years now, sad.

[@vintagesf]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal When the film rights to a book or series of books is sold, does the publisher get a big payday at point of sale? Or is their payday book sales tied to the success of the movie or tv show? What I’m getting at is that publishers are buying novels and series with the hope of a big media profit since book sales in general have plummeted. It becomes a bias new author’s face in selling their work.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@vintagesf Well, authors get money when the option to make a film/show is bought and this can be renewed- it's happened to many classic SF novels that remain unfilmed over and over again. Publishers obviously benefit if a film/show is made, as the booksales increase -an author I know had his life transformed monetarily by a big film deal. Obviously publishers and authors hope for this, but they have no real idea if a book will ever be picked up, let alone optioned.

[@nickbrough8335]

I would argue that fewer people really know how to write than used to. The quality of Tv and film writing is dealing rapidly as well/

[@angusorvid8840]

I grew up around the book biz, but not the publishing industry. My grandparents had a bookstore in Los Angeles, and I grew up reading a wide range of genres. SF is still my favorite. Over the decades I've met many of the biggest writers and editors in the genre. But the workings of the publishing industry is still a mystery to me. Whatever I've divined about the industry I've done so as a reader, from talking to those who work in the industry, and from working in bookstores for decades. Now, as a general rule, men tend to be more attracted to the science fiction genre than women, but you are right about the large number of female YA writers moving into science fiction has been detrimental to the genre. Their books will eventually fall out of print unless they are preserved digitally, and the cream will rise to the top. But sci fi is in for a rough ride in the meantime. Fantasy is easier to write and less demanding of the reader. So it's not surprising we see more of it than sci fi, and that the writers who normally work in this genre have nothing of quality to offer sci fi when they dabble in it.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Absolutely agree all points. Nice to hear from someone else here with commensurate experience. As you say, anyone who has worked around SF for decades and decades will agree men tend to be more attracted to SF than women- and to write it- and women are more likely to write Fantasy and SF with a strong Fantasy feel. I also agree that Fantasy - except for the literary stuff that avoids S&S tropes- is easier to write and read than SF, which has more rigour in all sorts of ways- so it has inevitably grown as our culture has become more infantile. There's no coincidence in 'Star Wars' coming out in the same year as 'The Sword of Shannara'. Many thanks for your comment, great to have you here!

[@angusorvid8840]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal That's a very good point about Star Wars and Shannara. This is something I often thing about. Yes, in '77 there was Star Wars, Shannara, and Stephen Donaldson with Thomas Covenant. I have nothing against fantasy as a genre. It is, in fact, the world's oldest genre as Robert Silverberg has pointed out. But I don't like it when fantasy sucks all the oxygen out of the room, especially when the fantasy at hand sucks bad enough to generate its own vacuum. We are witnessing the progressive dumbing down of the culture, and it's a travesty. The entire reason I will read an author like Bear, Benford, Egan, Watts, Vinge, etc., is to bust my brain wide open. To learn higher concepts through the use of imagination. Reading is a collaborative effort between reader and writer. The writer has to deliver their concepts with the best possible clarity. It is then up to us to concentrate and get our mind around concepts which may be entirely new to us. Fantasy is not so demanding. I grew up with a desire to expand my mind, to learn. My father had a subscription to Omni, an absolutely gorgeous magazine on science. Ben Bova was the original science fiction editor for Omni. This is how I first encountered Brin and many other greats. My father, an electrical engineer by trade, was also a serious science fiction fan and still us. Now, I did go through a period, about the time I was in elementary school, where I couldn't get enough of fantasy films. But that's also because they didn't make them in the 70s and early 80s like they do now. I loved Excaliber, Conan, Beastmaster, Krull, etc. Again, not brain busters, but good popcorn that took you far and away. With sci fi, even Star Trek, there is still some connective tissue of extrapolation between where you are when you entire the cinema and where you were when you exit. A place called the Present, The Now. Fantasy caters to those who would eschew reason, who may poo poo the Abrahamic tradition but cleave to the no more rational wiccan tradition or some such nonsense. This has grown concomitantly with the lack of reason in society. I believe this is also why we've become less civil. We argue over that which is pointless and can't reason, can't draw an argument to a close. Today's college students wouldn't know Plato from Playdough, Socrates from soccer. A generation that grew up on Harry Potter is not as reasonable as a generation that grew up on Asimov, Heinlein and Orwell. It all reminds me of Allan Bloom's 1987 book The Closing of the American Mind. Only Bloom faulted higher education. Today students arrive at university with a closed mind and demand trigger warnings and safe spaces rather than a challenged to their weltanschauung. When I arrived at university I did so with the expectation of getting my intellectual ass kicked. I got that from my best professors who helped me learn how to learn. To truly think freely. To constantly subject my beliefs to an acid test of reason. The lousy professors would simply try to indocrinate you to think as they do, rather than think for themselves. Today I see colleges full of millennial faculty members and they are making things worse. They discourage divergent opinions. I'll tell you, even back in the early to mid 90s when I was a student, it was more common to see classmates reading Raymond Feist or somesuch crap on the free time than Aldiss, Dick, Heinlein, Ballard, or Le Guin. It's been bad for a long time now.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@angusorvid8840 Agreed- it's been bad for SF for decades and is getting worse. To a degree, I feel SF is to blame- the Space Opera renaissance of the late 1980s didn't help, mostly and by 1993, there was very little going on in SF- that's Postmodernity for you....Thanks for your comment, thoughtful and in depth.

[@NocturnalMissSo]

Appreciate your take on this. I noticed a significant change in the fantasy and sci-fi realm after The Hunger Games came out. It was such a huge hit of a series, that a lot of stories copied that romantic triangle survival trope, whether it was YA, or more adult sci-fi and fantasy. I've been wondering about the general decline in the amount of sci-fi stories (especially in movies) over the last several years. All the bookstores have more manga now, which have some very good sci-fi stories, but I'm not sure how many "traditional" sci-fi fans also like the manga format. I'm also a comic book fan, and just like traditional books, Western comics don't carry a lot (or any) sci-fi stories these days. I have to search smaller or indie publishers besides Marvel and DC. The comic world is experiencing the same issue. Its nice to see more female writers, artists and readers, but diversity for the sake of diversity, tends to make the overall stories suffer. I think many publishers are too afraid to take a risk these days. They need to push what sells. The profit margins are too thin. After years of neglecting regular sci-fi books myself, I'm one of those customers that's contributed to this problem. After The Hunger Games and the Twilight series, I was seeking out fantasy stories with some romance, not hard core sci-fi. I read sci-fi as a kid in the 80s, but got caught up more in fantasy stories in the 90s and 2000s. I'm hoping to redeem that neglect by getting back into sci-fi book stories, but I may need to go backwards to read older titles, which doesn't help promote newer sci-fi authors. It kind of becomes a vicious cycle. Have a good weekend, sir.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

What I'd say is this: if you buy and read new copies of books by non-contemporary authors, you will be doing SF a service, as the general standard now is so low that most contemporary writers are undeserving of the sales they are getting in my view- most of them are derivative, too ready to pander to identity politics and worst of all are horribly unoriginal. They are generally making money off the backs of writers who came up with the concepts they are using decades before most of them were born, which is hard to respect. YA has, sadly, contributed to a general simplification in genre fiction publishing, which is sad, as I find that once people step back and read older books, they realise how lame much of the current scene is. Thanks for your comment.

[@user-kf6yt4mn9v]

Interesting video, thank you for giving the general public more insight into how publishing and the business side of it works. One thing I notice is a hot button topic of mine that gets me ranting every time something even tangential to it is brought up: I'm not an anti-capitalist or anything, regulated capitalism works well for many things, but publishing houses have a moral obligation to be cultural institutions as well as commercial enterprises. This means looking for the next big bestseller while also keeping in mind that they have an obligation to preserve and promote art and knowledge and distribute it to the masses. That's a difficult balance to hit but in the past few decades I do feel most of them have stopped trying, or have completely rid themselves of this idea because it's now seen as backwards. As other people in the comments here mention, I have to think the consolidation of major publishers into MEGA publishers has something to do with it?

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I agree publishers really should be fostering the Arts. The thing is, they have a vested interest in doing so, as history shows that many of the bestsellers of today will be the landfill of five years hence. Finding and curating work of quality pays them longer dividends in the end, as if books attain classic status because they speak to enough people, then they provide an endless income stream. Penguin Classics as an imprint is living proof of this since the 1950s.

[@joelstainer65]

Great video. I have a young adult daughter and have been putting together an advent calendar collection of 24 books for this Christmas for her. It has some of the usual romance fantasy as discussed because it's what she knows and loves. Her comfort books. But I also added in Handmaid's Tale with the hope that it might be a "gateway" book towards some more varied and deeper reading.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Thanks for the kind comment. I like your idea for your daughter, but I'm going to throw a curveball here and say that I think your Gateway text(s) need to move beyond something as obvious as the Atwood. I will admit I'm not a fan- I think as a dystoptian SF novel it's rather crude and it is actually not that pioneering- if you want to go with something in that ball park ('Handmaid's' is a book every serious reader will encounter by default anyway) I'd suggest something(s) a little earlier: LeGuin's 'Left Hand of Darkness', Marge Piercy's 'Woman on the Edge of Time' and Joanna Russ' 'The Female Man'. The difficulty I see when watching young women looking at the SF genre is that they are missing these earlier books, without which Atwood would not have been able to build on. But a great idea...and maybe you might like to get her some even more radical things, like Angela Carter's 'Heroes and Villains' and Charlotte Perkins Gilman's 'The Yellow Wallpaper'.

[@joelstainer65]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I have been hunting for a Left Hand of Darkness as well, but no luck. My rule is to only find stuff for $2 or less from the thrift stores. I have until December, so perhaps I will find one in the wild before then. Love your other suggestions as well (particularly The Female Man) but I think in this case I need to take baby steps (or maybe I am not giving her enough credit - entirely possible as well!)

[@erikaeriksson9840]

What a wonderful idea! If you want some diversity of topics and to introduce your daughter to some fantasy writers that might not be trending on Tiktok at the moment: The Darkangel trilogy by Meredith Ann Pierce, The Neverending Story by Michael Ende, The Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett, Legends edited by Robert Silverberg, Dragonsong by Anne McCaffrey, Titus Groan by Mervyn Peake, The Talisman by Stephen King and The Hobbit by JRR Tolkien.

[@joelstainer65]

@@erikaeriksson9840 Several good suggestions there. Thank you.

[@allanlloyd3676]

I think the most significant point you make is that women are reading more fiction and men more factual stuff. In the charity bookshop where I work, I often amuse myself by watching customers coming into the shop and trying to guess which section they will head for. Most women head for the fiction. Older men head for the historical (often military) section, and young men go straight to the music racks. I know this is simplistic, but I do think that fewer young men are reading at all. Maybe it is the distraction of music or gaming or films or comics, but we don't sell many books to young men. I find that there is very little in SF or fantasy or mainstream fiction that interests me, or that is aimed at male readers. One writer you never mention is David Mitchell. His books cross the line between SF and mainstream in a way that appeals to both sexes. He has a real background in SF but his books aren't marketed that way, and I think that might be the way of the future. His books are massive sellers and I wonder what you think of him.

[@thomasp6034]

Sadly I think you're right about young guys reading less for pleasure. Teachers often report this, and if you look at enrollment in literature courses at university, women outnumber men by quite a lot. I'm not sure what the explanation is, and undoubtedly there are multiple factors. Anyway I think it's a great shame that society appears to be failing to interest boys in reading.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I've met Mitchell and he's a lovely guy-interestingly, after 'Cloud Atlas' his sales crashed for years: a lot of people bought it on review strength and hated it (his subsequent book, 'Black Swan Green' was a massive flop by comparison). In fact it was so commonly donated by readers to charity shops that the head of books for Oxfam barred them from taking any more copies as they could not sell them. His work has recovered now, but had never again reached 'CA' heights. As ever, we're seeing a lot of SF in mainstream guise, nothing new as you know from experience, but there is more of it as writers realise that we are now in the future and that hiding your head in the sand of the social novel all of the time will only take you so far...

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

It is a HUGE problem. Part of it is parents- particularly mothers, sad but true, who stop their sons reading comics/graphic novels/ 'things with adult content' and assuming that just because their daughters read almost exclusively fiction that boys should be the same- when it's well known that males read a higher proportion of idea-based nonfiction than females on average. Plus publishing being overly dominated by women who have no concept of how you market books to men, because of course, we are different and this has to be denied in today's climate.

[@allanlloyd3676]

I met him at Hay Festival in 2016. He signed a book for me with a personal message and lots of doodles. His talk was excellent, with references to philosophers, Henry James and Star Trek. He was a member of the BSFA and drew a cover for Vector. I liked him a lot and have enjoyed his books very much. He varies his style in a very clever way that may not always come off but is always ambitious. And Black Swan Green is one of my favorites partly because the biographical bit about a Midlands school remind me of my own.@@outlawbookselleroriginal

[@mollyuhe]

In school we weren't given science fiction to read. My grade skipped The Handmaids Tale. Maybe I wouldn't have appreciated it back then but I'll never know. I do feel like that should be something covered in school. The focus doesn't have to be on space exploration and conflict. It could be more along the lines of Left Hand of Darkness by Le Guin, which looks at things culturally, from a more anthropological viewpoint. It wasn't until I was in my late 20's (I'm just turning 33yrs. old) that I started to really branch out and read science fiction. I am still a massive fantasy reader, but I've started to love SF. I started with Douglas Adams in high school and as an adult I have expanded to Le Guin, James S.A. Corey, Harlan Ellison, Robert Sheckly and Arthur C Clark, among others. I even have a bunch of Galaxy magazines ranging from the 1950's-1970's. I'm hoping to start reading those soon. However, I keep searching my library for older SF and it's hard to find ( I get it they have to stay relevant, if books aren't being borrowed they have to make room for other newer books).There is a used bookstore near me that sells SF but it's still mostly fantasy with SF sprinkled in on the shelves. It's disappointing, even in larger bookstores it's difficult. I appreciated your talk on how the publishing side affects what we have access to and what stays relevant. I had not considered that side of it.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Thank you. It's worth recognising that hardly anyone has ever been taught SF in school until recently and when they have been, it's been by mainstream authors who just happen to have read an SF book- Atwood is a classic example of this and to anyone who really knows their SF, not an important book, just a popular one- the real meat of Feminist thinking in SF came in the late 1960s and 1970s with LeGuin and Russ among others. Atwood jumped on a bandwagon that had been rolling for years. It's also worth mentioning that hardly anyone teaching SF up to University level has anything other than a superficial understanding of it. Instead, reading long established SF critics and reference books is a much better bet. No, the focus does not have to be on space exploration and conflict, but- and this is an important but- character, setting and contingency (chance) crate conflict which leads to drama and subsequently plot. Your example of 'the Left Hand of Darkness' (amazing book) is not, consequently, an excuse for SF novels that lack conflict created by the emergence of new technologies and social paradigms- this is the problem with the likes of Becky Chambers' work. Your reading in SF is a bit scattershot, but it is like that for all of us when starting out: Corey is routine stuff that differs little in its conception to Golden Age space opera from the 1930s and 1940s, Ellison is a strong moral voice and stylist and very, very important, Sheckley a satirist without whom the kill game books of today (for example 'The Hunger Games') would not exist. Clarke is all ideas but very little style. Galaxy is one of the very best SF magazines ever, particularly in the 1950s, as it emphasised social satire and style above all else. ...and as you day, the reasons why you are NOT finding SF of a certain vintage in local bookshops and libraries is because of the commercial reasons I've described in the video. Once people in publishing wake up and acccept that SF and Fantasy are Very Different Things, then we might get somewhere- but this seems unlikely this late in the game. Best of luck with your reading.

[@stuarttaylor1679]

I love perusing your selves while i watch your video's (I also do this in movies and often pause the movie as the camera pans across a book shelf to see what the character is reading) I notice you have VURT on display. I thought Pixel Face was a great read -- the best collection of SF short stories since J G Ballard. I don't think he ever bettered this collection -- thanks for all your videos, all ways very thoughtful and interesting.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Thank you. I hope to be meeting Jeff in November, will post an update here when I do. He's a big Ballard fan, like me.

[@thehound9638]

This video explained an awful lot for me about what's going on behind the scenes. I do enjoy the occasional YA book and I found the Hunger Games to be quite a fun read when they came out. I used to mainly read Fantasy but I'm now drawn more towards Sci Fi mainly because the Fantasy books were just getting too big. I think six books is more than enough but when you look at size of Wheel of Time or Mazalen and series like that it's just too big and not always worth investing your time in. At the moment the current Sci Fi authors who I'm pre-ordering are Blake Crouch and Adrian Tchaikovsky.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

If you watch my video 'The Commercially Artificial Fantasy Trilogy Since 1977' it explains how the endless series mentality arose. The ultimate message is 'if you keep buying them, they'll keep writing them,' and you will mostly get the same old same old after a certain point. SF is usually a safer bet, but it too is increasingly driven by unnecessary sequels- take 'Children of Time' - people love it, but you don't hear many raving about the sequels. Do the first volume and then get out is my way of looking at series.

[@syncswim]

Writers under traditional publishing houses are also not in control of their own marketing. Even if you attempt something different such as loosely linked standalones inhabiting a shared universe, nine times out of ten the pub will remarket it as a conventional series the reader must consume chronologically. (to maximize sales of course)

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@syncswim Absolutely- but if books or stories are linked (even loosely) they are not Singletons (or standalones to use your conflation). The reader is not forced to consume series, they choose to- and this is an even bigger problem. Writers and publishers will keep spoonfeeding audiences the same old thing if they keep buying it. Also, how many self-publishing authors are genuinely doing something original? Few, I'd say.

[@k76bk15]

Trash books or female centric smut always enjoyed a large market but the problem now is from being treated as a niche under the shelf product, they are now being treated as true traditionally accepted literatures due to tiktok & other social media groups & traditional authors like C.L Moore or LeGuin are being snuffed out even before reaching the pipeline.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Well, over the decades re genre fiction increasingly new entrants into the fields focus on the current- which is understandable, but if you watch my video on why the 'Modern SF' you're reading isn't actually Modern and how Modernism caused people to perpetually focus on the new, thinking it will be 'the best', then yes, you're right. What will be interesting is to see how many of the new readers will ever move into deeper backlist- my feeling is 'very few'. Whereas young people used to move into Modern Classics between 19 and 23, now they don't hit them until their thirties. Sad but true.

[@estranhokonsta]

Maybe it is just me dumbing down with age but many of the fantasy books that have been coming out decidedly remind me of those "pink romances" (many times borderline smut) as my younger self used to call them. Lately fantasy just feels like romance disguised as fantasy. And i don't want to recall much about the "formulaic stories". It is another painful memory. A little formula in any story is expected and even liked, but these late examples look like they are fresh out of a mass production conveyor or something. I think they even come with an expiration date and a after-service. Reading has become more and more a draining activity 😪 And i still believe that i am now much less picky than i was before. How can that be? Yep. I do believe that the publisher houses are one of the main reasons here for this whole "let's call it" trend. And the fact that those publishing houses are dominated by female employee can only be a factor in this. Come on ladies. You won't try to tell me that, when the publishing industry was dominated by men and the writing also dominated in a similar manner, there was no correlation between the two, wouldn't you? But in the end the most important factor here is that i am older (still feel weird to say "old"), many of us are older, the times are not the same and we are in another surfing wave. This doesn't mean that SF is kaput or that there is not good SF out there still fighting the good fight. This only means that not only the publishing trends are different, that not only the taste of the new generations are different, but also hat all these questions and doubts come from we, ourselves, that are no longer the same and that our expectations are probably out of sync with reality. Which is totally fair given the fact that the damn black and white TV antenna has to constantly be adjusted every time a random cloud passes overhead or whatever.

[@jakubskonieczny5750]

I will remember this sentense " people talk about rebalancing to be inclusive and diverse the fact is it sometimes feels like vangance" Yes. I felt it everytime I hear the thing "look how it looked in the past". So what, what am I suppose to do about it? Is it okey now when it's other way around but it wasn't okey back than? I don't get people sometimes... Great video, very thought-provoking. I will reference it often. It's also interesting that on my small local market (Poland) publishers recently are REALLY interested in SF. Publishers which were focused on horror or various genres diversify their ways of incoming, open new line of SF books but guess what is the problem here... There is not enough NEW quaility books to publish because of what's happening on big markets (american, british). These publishers are willing to issue SF but the quantity and quaility is not there... they are forced to reissue old classic SF mainly. All the 4 main SFF publishers here have a serie of old SF, only 1 issue new SF in unified SFF serie (where things like terra ignota was published) and in 1:5 proportion in favor of fantasy.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, as you say, what can we do about the past now? Obviously we can work to ensure injustices don't happen again, but that's about it. Poland has long been a sterling SF market according to what I already knew, so it's good to hear it's still flourishing in your country- but as you say, quality is a big problem now...

[@rogerbradbury9713]

There's far less SF than fantasy in those combined shelves, and most of the time I just can't be bothered to go through it all to see if there's something worth buying; a self fulfilling prophecy when they aren't selling much SF. Luckily a local used book shop has a "Pulp Science Fiction" bookcase that always has a few gems to take home, but that's not much help for current authors!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, last year and this hardly any SF was published in the UK and what was issued was generally fairly dire, most of it aimed at a similar market to the Romantasy that is dominating the budgets of British SF publishing- high time the genres were split for publishing reasons.

[@kaipacifica1289]

Instead of publishing for various audiences within a genre, publishers are pushing a singular "message" aimed at one specific audience. That propagandistic scheme will always drive readers away. I have no interest in "the message" preached to me again-and-again-and-again using middle-school level language and a lop-sided bent toward a specific gender. Drives me to read a lot of strong, challenging works from the past and forget the modern world of publishing.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Exactly. Why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@alien777 Publishi9ng and bookselling in the UK have been female-centric for over three decades- again, I'm speaking from experience within the trade. Women outnumber the men in these industries many, many times over. And the old argument that men still retain the powerful positions is far less true now than it has ever been.

[@kaipacifica1289]

@@alien777 The fact that you try to contextualize this issue -- a true lack of diverse stories and theming -- as conflict -- as a "battle of the sexes" -- speaks volumes. You are free to live in a tit-for-tat world, but I prefer a world with some real storytelling diversity, not exclusivity. "The message" is just another cage.

[@brycedouglas620]

Its crazy. I got flamed on twitter for making this exact argument. You definitely said it better than I did though lol. There are a lot of women who read SF and fantasy, but whenever you tell those women that they're an anomaly more than the norm, they lose their mind. Many people like to think everyone is like them and they don't like to hear that they're different. The problem is this thought process has pervaded the publishing industry and contributed to a serious downfall of both genres. At the end of the day, women don't want to read hard sci-fi and fantasy. It's no coincidence that women are the largest readerbase and romance and thriller are the highest selling genres.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Thanks for your comments. The fundamental problem with asking these questions is that the majority knee-jerk and start screaming 'Sexist!' immediately- and of course most of them are simply marketing themselves as 'good people' on Social Media when they do this, confirming only that they are slaves to orthodoxy and enemies of the individual, free expression and rational evidence-using debate. For me, my concern is with the QUALITY of what is being published- I don't care who produces it. But the reality is that the vast majority of SFF being produced by young female authors is not helping to advance Genre SF artistically. The caveat to this, of course, is Sturgeon's Law. I'm assuming you've watched the whole video and seen my conclusion that the problem is publishing budgets and the way that they are undivided for SF & F, but with the implication that the massive overbalance to women in publishing and bookselling in that they are the majority (and have been for a very, very long time) can have a negative impact on the actual diversity of material published and represented. Yes, male readers are being under-served these days. Twitter? Well it was built for flaming, as its tiny character limit means that it doesn't allow for Socractic argument, only axiomatic statement-making at best. It's impossible on that platform to go into detail and expose nuance: it's a platform for gainsaying rather than real argument, the intellectual process by which we reach objective truth. Currently, based on my near daily observation of the marketplace in my job, the norm is now predominantly female, but that norm is also predominantly youthful and predominantly reading Fantasy rather than SF. As far as Genre SF is concerned, it has always been less popular with women, written and read less by women and when it is written by females, it tends toward the flavour of Fantasy -and the reasons for this deserve study and debate, but it is undeniably true. Female writers of Hard SF are uncommon - Linda Nagata is one exception that comes to mind. It is argued that SF needs to always change to stay relevant- but the fact is that it has stagnated massively since the end of the 1980s. Look at the history of Genre SF from 1926 (when the term Science Fiction was coined) until the end of the 1980s and you see near constant evolution and revolution. Since then, we've seen a return to the innate conservatism of Space Opera, the featureless slickness of 'bestseller style' cod-literary prose that is 'readable' and -despite the odd flash of genius in Posthumanist SF- a decline in interest in the more challenging Modernist techniques of the New Wave. Now, SF is riven with Identity Politics, which former minorities working in or reading in the field seem to think is new: it isn't if you're well read in 1960s and 1970s SF. At the moment, I don't know what the answer is, other than for serious SF readers to keep their faith with the handful of people writing Genre SF that has literary facility and genuine genre energy- for me, that's Priest, Harrison, Gibson, Adam Roberts, Chris Beckett, Nina Allan and a handful of others. There is very little we can do to influence publishers except to vote with our pockets and buy writers like these and keep purchasing backlist reissues of the books that count. One SF writer I know feels that current trends witll pass, but based on forty years of watching how SF has been negatively affected by Fantasy publishing, I'm pessimistic if I'm honest.

[@SerpentineSeiđr]

I haven't watched the video yet, just for context, but the title made me curious when it popped up on my KZbin recommended. I'm a female sci-fi (aspiring) writer and I haven't been into Fantasy since my teens, but I notice that the majority of women I know vastly prefer fantasy to sci-fi (which makes me a little sad). Sci-fi has so much more scope as a genre in my opinion. I'm not into military hard sci-fi, but I'm crazy for sweeping galactic space opera. I had never watched Star Wars until age 30, and that was my gateway drug, haha! I will hit play now, and possibly be back with an opinion after I watch. 😊

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Hope you like the video. Agree it is sad more females don't try SF- There are several interviews with great female SF writers on this channel.

[@joebrooks4448]

Great analysis, as usual. Certainly, a closer inside look than most of us have had. I agree nearly completely. I am not 100 years old yet.. I have about a decade more SF addiction. I would place the beginnings of these "Trends" a few years earlier, in the US. OK, then. What to do? We need a new John W. Campbell Jr type. Someone who can read the market and aggressively guide a resurgence. Stephen W. Jr? PS, I watched the entire video, and replayed some parts.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Many thanks, of course! Yes, what do we do, that is the next question? I certainly feel we need a bold new renaissance, but I worry there is not enough of a market for it, since the genres are in such a poor state. If I were younger.....

[@joebrooks4448]

@outlawbookselleroriginal Youth participation is the answer, it appears. At 69, I would need Ayesha's attention to attempt an intervention!

[@expressoric]

I think there must be a lack of experimentation in the actual fantasy genre, it only seems to provide expectations of what it should be like. There doesn't seem to be anything iconoclastic or daring that would provide entry level into the SF realm. This is why novels like Robert Holdstock's "Mythago Wood" are so brilliant, it brings fantasy into the SF that "new wave" authors like Michael Moorcock and J. G. Ballard pioneered.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes. Even if S&S authors stuck to the same old tropes, then they could still try and be stylistically interesting- but no, that's not going on now. Even in the 1980s many of the best US Female fantasy writers could be very interesting stylistically- Patricia McKillip, Jane Yolen....

[@ohtarelenion]

I must admit that you have some years on me, and so speaking from my experience might not be too persuasive, but I'm really not sure about this disconnect between fantasy and sf readers you are talking about. Certainly in the fandom, the association is live and well. I ran a club of fantastic literature in my hometown, and anecdotally, I was certainly the most likely to read SF from the members, but nobody would refuse to read SF. And the other way round as well - I read SF and fantasy. You do so yourself, after all. But maybe this is different with more casual fans...

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Thanks for your post. Well it does depend on what type of readers, their ages and relative experience. Based on what I see daily-compared to in the past- I know that the market has now shifted massively toward female buyers, who are mostly young, little-read in the genre and a good 80%+ of these show no interest in SF-I'd like to think they'll widen their reading, but experience tells me that as with any group you can think of, most will not. If you start a club/reading group,you will attract the keener people who are most likely to be expansive in their taste- I did this in the 80s 90s and noughties, covering both genres and all genders. It also depends what you mean by Fandom -there is the original Fandom that runs cons, votes on awards and so on (always a small and overly influential minority- after all, once this Fandom awarded Rowling a Hugo Award for Best SF novel for a Harry Potter book...which shows how irrelevant it had become in going for real literary quality and innovation, plus it was a Fantasy novel....this Fandom became pretty much irrelevant) and everyone else. As you say, casual 'fans'... I keep mentioning my experience here simply because many- not including yourself- simply don't seem to grasp the massive-scale difference in perception of what is going on at the level it is going on: when you see it daily as I do, you'd notice the biggest readership shift in terms of sheer numbers in the history of SFF publishing (and as I said in the video, that's where the problem is- the two things have different philosophies behind them, despite seemingly similar surface details (which are largely maintained by formulaic escapist writing i.e. not the best writing). Brian Aldiss once wrote -in the 1970s- that SF would not be able to claim full maturity until as many women as men read it, but while I agree to a point, has this resulted in SF improving? Clearly not, quite simply. There has always been a tendency for women to read and write Fantasy more than SF- biology doesn't lie on this, the same way it doesn't like on many other things. Being someone who is passionate about the brilliant female SF writers of the past -Moore, Brackett, Merrill, LeGuin, Russ, Charnas, Yarbro and many others- what fascinates me is that during their heydays, they were read more by men than women: I sold their books, I saw this happen. Many female readers entering SFF in the last thirty years are WAY behind in discovering the roots of women in SFF- everyone thinks it started with Attwood...yes, you get the odd mention of Mary Shelley, usually from people who don't know the 1818 text of 'Frankenstein' and the fact that some of it was in Percy Shelley's hand. My main issue is that more women coming into SFF has not improved its overall quality: it's just created more rubbish and some good stuff- though to be fair, it was like this when it was more male dominated. As Theodore Sturgeon said, '90% of everything is crud and that includes SF,'. More female readers coming into SFF has not really moved the genres on, just created more of the same escapism. I wish it were different, as the female writers of the 1960s and 1970s were more often than not brilliantly innovative and entertaining.

[@michaelnobody8015]

Thanks for giving me a whole bunch of new authors to check out. I'm one of those people who reads both SF and Fantasy. I'm one of those people who has been looking for new SF for a while. My local bookstore does separate SF and Fantasy, but it doesn't help when they don't stock anything that I want to read. It is all either stuff that I read years ago, endless series or basic space opera. It also doesn't help that the bookstore is focusing almost exclusively on female customers. I gave up on them a few years ago and only go there to get stuff for my daughters. I buy all my books on line or second hand now, I used to spend hundreds at that store every year.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

My pleasure, thanks for watching. By 'new' SF do you mean 'contemporary, recently published' or stuff you've not heard of? I sympathise with your experiences in a bookshop, as these are common complaints, especially among male readers and those looking for something beyond the obvious. Keep watching, check out my huge backlist of videos here, I'll keep it coming!

[@rickkearn7100]

This is a topic near and dear to my SF heart, OB! Spot-on, mentioning Clarke's "SFF is about the past, SF is about the future" stance. Also, I sincerely believe that the modern landscape in Fantasy publishing is overpopulated with Pulp Fiction. I will cite here publications like The National Enquirer, in making my point that high standards no longer apply. After all, the publishing industry has always been an exploitative entity that is self-serving and simply about the bottom line, and this is why so much of what is new is essentially "trending now" and "tik tok" demographics-driven instead of being what it should be; a celebration of great writing and subject matter. But there it is. Pearls before swine no longer pays the rent (and never did). IMHO. Great post as usual OB! Best content, quality, production and especially presentation, bar none. Cheers.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Cheers Rick- you remain Dean of Men!!!!!

[@leakybootpress9699]

You've set me off again. Whereas I agree with most of what you say, Steve, I would say that the state of SF publishing is even worse than you suggest, particularly in the UK. You're willing to regard space opera, and perhaps so-called 'military SF', as science fiction, which I'm not. The fact that a novel has spacecraft in it is not sufficient to make it SF, any more than, say, a novel with kissing can necessarily be called a romance. Most space opera is techno-fantasy because once the characters leave our solar system they are entering the realms of the physically impossible in terms of time and distances. To conjure up a transpprtational broomstick and call it a "hyperdrive" or "warpdrive" is as much fantasy as a wizards' wand and magic spells. Other than that old hobby-horse, I do blame publishers and the ignorance of their editorial staff, of course, but I also blame authors, male and female, for being prepared to write the serial drivel they turn out, and schools which don't seem to encourage breadth and variety in reading. A school teacher I know, asked me about fifteen months ago if I'd talk to a sixteen year old boy who wanted to write an essay on the writing of J. G. Ballard. Essentially I was told that this kid didn't have time to read any of Ballard's novels, although he'd read the Low Flying Aircraft collection. Could I give him some plot summaries for the novels (which are easy enough to find online anyway) and show him some Ballard books. I refused. Such laziness on the part of both the teacher and the kid seems to be endemic in British schools.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

The only point I disagree with you on, James. is the technical one we've discussed before- I know PKD was of the same opinion as you re space opera and the like as not having a true Novum, but as much as I agree in spirit with this, to exclude these from SF is unhelpful, I feel, when one is trying to keep the genre defined and boundaries clear. This stuff is SF, though admittedly of a lowest common denominator kind- people seem to struggle enough with the difference between science and magic when discussing SF, so to exclude the entry level material we're referring to just muddies the water to my mind. But totally respect your point, which I otherwise feel is valid. Shocking Ballard-related anecdote though, but unsurprising given the state of literacy and publishing and schooling now...

[@leakybootpress9699]

​@outlawbookselleroriginal The problem with the low grade, entry-level stuff is that it's invasive, it's like the Water Hyacinth that's clogging the River Nile, and is squeezing out the rich variety of SF we both enjoy... something you so eloquently rail against.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@leakybootpress9699 I completely agree, James, but for the reason I highlighted, it's still SF as far as I'm concerned. But as you know, I totally share your frustration with it!

[@eyesonindie]

Hi Steve! I learned so much from this. Are there any small presses that are publishing the kind of literary science fiction you are speaking about? I'd love to check them out, if you know of any. Is part of the problem that the market is dominated by huge publishers who aren't allocating resources to science fiction? Also, as a mother of a young boy, a big problem (as I've come to understand it through my research) is that boys aren't reading independently nearly as much as they used to, or as much as their female peers. So if the market is being geared toward female readers, I'm guessing that's because (young) female readers are the people buying the most books. So is part of the solution also to ensure that our young boys grow up to be as voracious readers as their peers? Because I don't see how the market would ever shift without consumers to drive it. (but that's a problem for another comment). Thanks again for sharing!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I'd say Newcon and PS Publishing have been supporting more of the 'Literary' SF writers for many years in the UK -these are traditional 'real' Small Presses run by pros/true Fans (in other words limited print runs on the hardcovers, warehouse stockholding not print on demand, unlike publishers like Subterranean and Centipede who mostly reissue gifty limited editions for people who missed the true first editions years earlier- we have Folio and Easton to do this, Subterranean particularly should do more original work, but that's commerce for you). Most of the 'small presses' now are just print on demand self-publishing firms, a different animal. Re boys and reading, my take on this for the last twenty years has been one of great concern. Boys, being more focused on things and ideas than social interaction, are more easily distracted by gaming and other screen-based activities that have usurped 'slow, cool' media since the PC, tablet and mobile became dominant. Also - and I say this sincerely, without any sexism, as it is based on research and professional observation - the publishing and bookselling industries are dominated in numbers by female staff, who don't always understand the needs and differences of male readers. One of the best things in my career has been working with many, many intelligent and talented women in bookselling and publishing, but at 70% plus, the representation is unbalanced- 50% of the human race is of course male. Biology does not lie and male readers are generally different to female ones. As I've said, a big problem now is that publishers often have no idea to market books to males, as too many of them are not male. No doubt someone will be insulted by this statement, but I speak from front-line experience- the crisis in young men's reading will be solved by male input, though there are women doing their best to help with this and all good booksellers and publishers care too. First of all, proportion- boys always have and always will read a higher percentage of non-fiction across the spectrum of their total reading experience than girls. In the nature-nurture debate, I'm a firm believer that human culture is affected by both of these factors, but I do feel the nature part is denied too much these days. If you have sons, don't expect them to read as many of more novels than daughters, so think about books, magazines, newspapers and other platforms that cover their interests (sport, science, history, even gaming) and don't fret that they are not reading novels so much. I know I didn't. Judgement is more important than voracity, I feel. I see the dominance of screens as a massive distraction problem we need to overcome for boys in particular, but I tend to suggest ans recommend what worked for me and the majority of young male readers decades ago - SF. Douglas Adams, 'The Chrysalids' by John Wyndham- these are great entry level texts, as is '2001: A Space Odyssey'. Yes, old books but still readable to young people. Modern -rather than contemporary SF (watch my video on the difference between Modern and Contemporary posted a few weeks back) is THE gateway genre to 20th Century Classics- because of SF, I was reading Camus, Sartre, Hesse and others by my late teens. I hope this helps.

[@JozefLewitzky]

To add a thing about the 'science fiction hunger,' I think a lot of guys get their fix through a mix of movies, tv shows, and Especially video games. Science Fiction books are having a hard time competing for attention in that sphere. For women, I think written romances still are one of the top ways to get that specific fix. Yes, there are romance movies, and even games with romances in them, but on a base level, the hunger for a good romance is still best quenched by a book. Add to that the aesthetics of bookshelves and book collecting with a cup of tea, cozy socks, and faerie lights, and you've got the sensation of booktube, booktok, and bookstagram. In addition to the excellent points you make, I believe these factors led there to be a lot more mainstream money going into fiction from women, whereas the adventure, action, and crime stories men have liked for their baser pleasures and wish fulfillments have mostly been usurped by movies, tv shows, and video games. Unfortunately, the vast majority of media sold will always be first and foremost from these baser desires than from other merits.

[@thomasp6034]

I think video games have been immensely damaging to several generations of guys and some women too. They eat up so much time, for one thing, and they destroy the ability to imaginatively engage that is essential for reading. Gaming has also had a dreadful influence on the sort of movies that get made, imo.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

100% agree. Most SF films look like computer games now and seem to be mostly made on computers-they're not like feature films at all.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I think you make a lot of very good points, Jozef. You could say the equivalent of men's assumed preferred 'baser pleasures' have their equivalents in the 'female preferences' you refer to. What I observe (and have done for decades) is that when SF is recommended to women, they are far, far more likely to respond with 'But I don't like science fiction,' than male readers- but I think this is based on what they've seen on screens- as you say regarding the way SF is presented in the mass media (lowest common denominator). In the past, women weren't so involved in SF as they wouldn't even try it- you can't really blame men for that. As for the aesthetics of book collecting, you virtually never meet true book collectors among women- it is all the cutesy stuff, though you could just say men maybe go for a different cute. Good to hear from you as ever.

[@markandresen1]

That's a telling thesis, Steve; about both the bandwagon-jumping of modern fantasy series, born from the YA market, and the consequent sidelining of SF. You've articulated something that's been on my mind - but UNarticulated - for some time. I'd regularly stand before the fantasy section, scratch my receding hairline, and think, 'I don't doubt this new generation is healthy at one level, but something is missing that I can't find elsewhere in the shop.'

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes Mark, something is missing- quality. And young men particularly are being forced away from reading a lot now, by gaming, but the over-emphasis of the feminine in reading. Let them find their own identities first, I say, before they have to grow to include others. You can't be everything to all people when developing, I'd say.

[@mike-williams]

For those who don't want to write serialised SF/fantasy with military, romance etc themes it's very hard to get a publishing deal because the publishers aren't going to get behind someone who can't push out a new book every 2 years. They either have to look at getting the work categorised as literary fiction or perhaps self-publish. I've found some quite decent stuff on Smashwords and other paltforms.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes Mike, this is a big issue. I am generally anti-self publishing, but it does create opportunities for work which will not agree to fit market models. Good to hear from you as ever!

[@andrewkrelle7781]

Interesting video again Steve although I'm not 100% sure of your thesis. For example, I do think that a lot of traditional readers of science fiction will also read fantasy and vice versa (and other genres also), but I do agree that a lot of formulaic fiction has taken over both genres and maybe those audiences are separate. As you suggested we have these never ending series of books that people read, but why? I suspect, because they like the comfort of a well worn and warm fuzzy blanket in which to wrap them selves. Stereotypically SFF set in the so called universes of well known TV and Movie franchises. These franchises which while fine in a dose of of 60 or 120 mins on screen, like yourself, hold little interest to me to read. However, I do enjoy those books contained within a framework of individual author's world building, the Tolkeins and G. R. R. Martins in Fantasy or the Reynolds or the Banks in SF, for example. In the case of the former two authors, we have one long story and in the latter we have stories which while set in their author's created world nonetheless are often telling different types of tales and often are different genre of stories, mysteries or crime maybe. Ultimately it is the skill of the author that will hold your attention. As for publishers, well, as with most things, you just have to follow the money. They will publish what they think will sell. And if that means paranormal romance (two words that immediately kill my interest in any book) and urban fantasy because that's what's selling, then that is what gets published. The likes of Charmed and Buffy for example have been around for a quarter of a century on our TVs and with their stories of young female empowerment is of course going to attract that audience whether within a franchise or within a world of the writers own making. But again when it comes to such books, surely it's the quality of the writing and skill of the author to tell a compelling tale which will determine if anyone is going to read them in 100 years, a lot I suspect not. And yes, I suspect this also applies to some of my favourite books too. Nothing ages like todays visions of tomorrow, as someone once wrote. But I do think the best books, which even though are of a time and place which may not be or maybe never was, still tell compelling stories and have life in them yet and so will be published and republished. Anyway my two bobs worth.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Of course. I've long observed much of what you say here over the course of decades. The real problem is the growth of formula fiction as you say, but I feel it has been encouraged by the budgetary linking of the two genres and publisher failure to think about the implications of this- instead, they go for the easy money, but hey, that's their job....the corporate model is full blown now, so I feel the chances of writing of worth emerging and staying in print are fewer in SF than they were and I'm sorry to say I disagree -with a few exceptions, we call have them - with the series model as you find in say Banks and Reynolds. Give me a singleton anyday. But wise words, no doubt, from your end.

[@salty-walt]

Great video.

[@unstopitable]

During the 90s, and maybe even 80s, I remember Magic Realism being all the rage (in the English-speaking world), when, in fact, the Latin Boom had hit its peak in the Spanish-speaking world in the 60s, and really started to sprout in the 30s, 40s. "Metafiction" became a kind of fad, a buzzword; although there were some Americans, like Paul Auster, who were doing some really interesting stuff, and, of course, in the realm of SF, almost everything PKD did broke new ground, and then you have someone like Ballard who seemed to have discovered an entirely new yet always-there universe within. I'm rambling, but I get a little miffed at authors (take Updike, for example), who thought they could try their hand at SF without taking the genre seriously. If you can *only* tell your story through SF, then it's a SF story; write it as such. But if what you're really writing is something else, why bother? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on indie publishing. The landscape is changed; but again, it hasn't. I would argue that the majority of indie writers are publishing "to market," using the exact same strategies of the remaining commercial publishers. There's a glut of insipid, bloodless, anemic (I could stack on more adjectives) works that are really the same pap. But they sell.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Pap has always sold, yeah. I recall the Magical Realism boom well. Auster used to be the most reliable writer in North America, loved his stuff, but he lost it in the last 20 years- and he could never write SF, as 'In The Country of Last Things' and 'Man in the Dark' showed most painfully. I know what you mean about 'miffed at Updike' too- when Julian Barnes tried, you could scrape the heavy-handedness of his satire of the pages with a trowel. As you say, if you can only tell your story through SF.... There is a kind of aura around the word 'independent' as if it were a badge of moral integrity, but as you imply, that is absolute crap, right? If you look at the Independent Booksellers Chart in 'The Bookseller' magazine, they are usually selling exactly the same titles in quantity as the remaining large chains. In my experience, the average reader of any taste wants to be told what to read by reviews, the media in a wider sense or by booksellers, as there is too much for them to choose from and they haven't developed a sense of taste or instinct- I'm fascinated by this, despite dealing with it daily forever, as I go by instinct born of reading and spending time in bookshops (my instinct was highly developed this way by the time I was 18, some years before I entered the industry, but I guess I'm not typical). It is the same with 'indie' publishers. Often they're marketing the same ideas to compete in the same markets- and as Identity Politics is all the rage among the chattering classes, that's where they go. I think there are good independent publishes- like Salt, & Other Stories and NYRB Classics is always impressive. In SF, this only happens in small presses run on the old-school limited edition model, like PS and Newcon.

[@unstopitable]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal Thanks for your wisdom, Outlaw.

[@onehandslinger1475]

Affirmative action back in the days was known as HEALTHY ORIGIN, and its purpose is/was to position the cow's hind at the head of the state, as it was called. Nicolae Ceausescu completed 4 grades and his highest qualification was cobbler journeyman. Comrade Bobu was his right hand because the man was an imbecile. A lathe operator became ambassador in the USA. The same thing was taking place in the culture as well. Imposture and mediocrity, synonymous with subservience to the regime, were being promoted, as reveled by the writer of Ode to The Caster in Marin Preda's 1981 The Most Beloved of The Earthlings where Preda mocks this phenomenon. Caster back in the days was a name given to the collaborators with the surveillance state. They were "casting" you to The Security, the secret services, for wrong think. No wonder Marin Preda died in the evening of the day the novel was published in suspect, AND DEGRADING, circumstances. Culture defines nation (and civilization). The destruction of culture means the destruction of civilization. That was the purpose of Proletcultism. Western Proletcultism is FEMINISM, NEGRO-CULTISM AND GAY THE NEW STRAIGHT. This is how Marxists destroy culture and bring THE END OF YOUR HISTORY. How is your history going to end? It's going to END WITH YOUR DEMISE.

[@angusorvid8840]

I remember when bookstores would separate fantasy and SF. They would get their own sections, but they would still be next to each other. The reason for this was the belief that the same readers enjoyed both genres. This was true to a degree, but not as much as independent bookstore proprietors and the execs of the larger chains like Walden, Crown, Borders and Barnes and Noble believed. By the mid 90s it was common to see sci fi and fantasy grouped together into the same section. I remember when I was working for Barnes and Noble a decade ago, around the height of the Harry Potter craze, when the sci fi fantasy section was visibly overwhelmed with fantasy. For every sci fi novel there were ten fantasy novels, often part of never-ending series. For every Greg Benford book there were ten Terry Brooks. It was horrendous. Meanwhile, Harry Potter led to an obsessed with the YA genre. The whole publishing industry was looking for the next Rowling, then the next Stephanie Meyers and Susan Collins.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, true. Separating them has always been very uncommon in the UK, though as I said in the video, I used to do it myself. The post-Potter thing you describe in your bookselling experience is pretty much where the UK is now and has been for a while. I have nothing against Fantasy, but it is not SF and there are two distinct markets- I'm sure you noticed this when in bookselling too.

[@joyfulgirl91]

I used to work in a bookstore chain that shelved fantasy and SF with general fiction. Every day at least one customer tried to explain it to us like it was a bad choice or mistake we made out of our own judgment

[@davidbooks.and.comics]

I know that female sf witers are doing well...I have not delved into those historical demographics that you mention...Sarah J Maas fits that category along with her friend, Nalini Singh. Michelle Sagara, who works in a local Toronto SF bookstore called Bakka-Phoenix writes these huge tomes fits this category that aims at female readers. She has a huge following. I got 2 of her books signed but I thought her readership was more female. I picked more of her books, so I will see.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

History and context are everything- go backwards to the 1960s and 1970s and you'll find Fantasy by women which is literature, not mere entertainment.

[@matthewstands]

Thanks for your views on publishing trends. It seems that publishers have decided that literature is a zero-sum game: the buying of books has been flat for a decade. If you take this as a truth, then it's easy to understand why they wouldn't cultivate traditional forms and innovation. There's fewer publishing houses chasing the same number of dollars!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I think this depends where you are in the world. Here in the UK, YA and Fantasy aimed at Females have been booming, but that doesn't mean traditional forms should not be cultivated- as a bookseller, I see every day that there are markets not being served by publishers.

[@bookendsandbiscuits]

Super interesting as usual, agree that it needs a little more separation. Will take the emma newman recommendation!

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Thanks Robyn- I think Emma's books would really float your boat and there is a an interview on the channel with her, do take a look, she's a super lady, always lovely to talk to, always interesting.

[@CPWebster]

Steve, another video that's spot on. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on some of the new, small, independent sci-fi publishers, etc. like Aegeon (Aureus Press)?

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I'll admit I'm not familiar with them off the top of my head, will take a look...and now that I've found this as a blurb on Amazon for one of their publications, I must say it doesn't impress initialy : 'Science fiction is a tradition which began in earnest in the atomic age, evolved to great heights and popularity through the psychedelic age, lasting well into the 1980’s, and mysteriously diminished as a pop culture presence around the turn of the century'. Is this some sort of parodic or alternate history statement I wonder? If serious, it's incredibly incorrect of course. Couldn't see a website, if there is, please reply with a URL and I'll look again-cheers!

[@lisagulick4144]

As a longtime reader of both genres, I believe the problem is that the short-story markets are mostly gone, and those that remain require a writer to have an agent for a story to even be read! There is no "over the transom" route, as there was in the past, for a new writer to break into the field and build a following. Instead, we have publishers, and they want novels. A successful novel makes money, and then they want sequels. The female authors may be in the spotlight right now, but the guys are suffering, too.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

You're absolutely right about the short story aspect, of course, totally agree. However, working at the sharp end of the industry- a bookshop (for 39 of my forty years in the industry) the fact is that female publishing staff, bookselling staff and writers outnumber the men -and men are characterised as non-readers and 'difficult to market to' from the perspective of some female publishing staff.

[@lisagulick4144]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal In my personal experience as a bibliophile, I find that nowadays my book recommendations are answered with "Oh, I don't read" or "I don't have time to read." (This is often right before they use their phone to check social media or answer a text). I hear this reply from both men and women. It's really sad.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@lisagulick4144 It's always been there, of course, but these people are lost to their screens. Impoverished lives!

[@Hvitlys]

If I understood right, adult fantasy books have violence and sex, right? (compared to Young Adult fantasy books) Are there fantasy books without violence and sex? Like children's books, but more elaborate, for adults? (without them trying to indoctrinate anyone, I'm not religious). I miss children's books, I used to read so much as a kid until my teens, then I basically stopped because I didn't find books I liked. I tried many (so I still read a lot) until I finally gave up. Children's books were so imaginative, so magical, so amazing, and they weren't focused on sex or violence or jaded / cynical characters. I miss that a lot.

[@thekeywitness]

I'm not a publishing world expert or bookseller but I'm guessing that the increasing focus on female writers and readers is driven in part by a couple of factors: young men don't read as much as they used to because of declining quality in education (fewer men go to college than women these days) and they perceive reading as a female activity, preferring instead things like sports, video games and other tech-centric pursuits. At the same time, the publishing industry has become female-dominated. In the U.S., for example, a 2019 survey conducted by Publishers Weekly found that women held approximately 74% of the positions in the publishing workforce. The survey also highlighted that women were particularly well-represented in editorial and marketing departments. In the UK, a 2018 report from the Publishers Association stated that approximately 63% of the UK publishing industry's workforce was female.

[@thomasp6034]

I think video games have a lot to answer for in terms of the general dumbing down of popular entertainment and destroying people's ability to enjoy books, and anything else that requires a deep level of intellectual engagement. Games are fine in moderation, but so many people will play for 8 hours at a time, or longer. And not just kids, there are people in their 30s and 40s who grew up surrounded by videogames and that's still their main recreational activity. I find it incredibly depressing.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I think you make a very good point- and this ties in with what I've said elsewhere in this comment thread about how publishers do not know how to market books to men. Having worked in the industry for almost 40 years, it''s been obvious to me for decades that it is dominated by women, both in numbers and increasingly from the early 90s by women in top positions. This also applies to bookselling as well as publishing. This is one of the many reasons I wrote a book entitled '100 Must Read Books For Men' in 2008 which went into reprint 3 days after publication such was the demand.

[@joyfulgirl91]

⁠​⁠@@thomasp6034women and girls are also the fastest growing segment of the gaming industry. You can enjoy books and also games, I certainly do. I don’t think it’s an answer to why boys don’t read. I’ve seen them made fun of for reading and I think that’s a lot more of an explanation. I’ve also seen dads tell boys reading is a waste of time if you can get the same information faster. It seems like with boys if they are not able to win at reading (praise, status at school, actual contest wins) they don’t get into it until they are older

[@neiltaylor513]

@@outlawbookselleroriginalthe poster mentions education, but this is a problem, a lot schools in the recent decades was to push female education, to the detriment of white working class boys, everything has a knock on effect. this is a topic that has being raised a lot but it is always pushed with "bah white male privilege", maybe it’s why suicide rates in this sector is the highest.

[@nickbrough8335]

Interesting analysis. Yes, of course the main stream publishers are the cause, as they are the real effective gate keepers of what most people read in terms of current fiction. You suggest that female writers are writing a particular form of fantasy for a female readership. Putting these two factors together, the industry is pushing a rather narrow view on what the SFF reading public are able to read, and by there choices, they are deciding that this is the only thing that gets published and read today. Although you dont state this, surely the effect is that there is a decline in male readership of SFF, as men have somewhat different taste in SFF fiction than women. Although you may not want to go there, this is ideologically driven, given we seen similar trends in Film and TV production.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, of course. I personally think the ideology comes after the fact, being the cart that develops out of the primacy of the horse: women are predominant in numbers in the book industry and as the industry has become more commercially focused, the oftimes inability of female workers in the industry to work out how to market books for men results in an increased focus on the female markets and the ideology comes along to back that up. As I've stated clearly, the main issue, however, is the continued linking of SF & Fantasy in a BUDGETARY sense at publishers- and this has resulted in male-centric SF being downgraded in volume due to the focus from a feminised publishing industry on aiming at the currently more lucrative female market. It's an example of capitalism going 'woke'- you could say- and cynically using 'the contemporary narrative' to justify an excess of female-centric publishing based on the idea that 'women's voices are neglected in the world of books'. When I started working in the industry 40 years ago this was always being discussed and although it was different then, women were very widely represented and they have been dominant in numbers for at least thirty years. It's more like a coalescence of circumstance instead of a conspiracy. You'll see this in bookshops too, especially independent ones, who seem obsessed with their interiors looking 'pretty' as opposed to stocking an authoritative and wide range of titles in depth.

[@nickbrough8335]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I agree, although I think that ideology played a larger role initially and then it has become self fulling that there is a limited market for male readers and thus for male writers. Thus the industry shrinks in size and relevance. I am more SF orientated than fantasy (but do read both) and most modern fantasy leaves me uninterested, so i find myself reading more old fiction (rereads and new to me) and more crime fiction and less SFF.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@nickbrough8335 If you worked in the industry, you'd see how the ideology came later, to be usefully appended to the market.

[@nickbrough8335]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I imagine the original argument was we're under represented in female writers (just look at JK Rowling and Harry Potter), alongside were under-servicing female SFF readership as well (made by mostly female executives who mostly happen to be feminists?). Both of these facts are costing us money via lost sales. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the argument as it would expand the SFF selection in bookshops/Amazon etc, which is good thing. I suppose the next stop was we can only afford to fund this many writers, so we have to reduce our stable and mostly male authors were cut ?

[@nickbrough8335]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I think that many separate social, political and corporate factors applied at different times to create out current "peak woke" environment. Disney et al's multiple failures in SFF (and elsewhere) in 2023/24 and declining main stream broadcast and Streaming SFF (D+ Star wars and Marvel content collapse) TV audiences is (IMO) going to drive much more, much less woke, more male orientated material across the Entertainment sector going forward (starting in the US of course). They cant leave all those $'s on the table and survive.

[@avidreader8521]

As someone who read some of those 'classics' of SF&F, they can be *rough.* Some are really good and stand as enjoyable books today. Others, however, even ones that were formative and went on to exert major influence on other writers/the genre as a whole, just do not make for enjoyable reading. For example, what I've read of Heinlein's work ranges from 'just ok; perhaps a bit boring' to 'this is sexist as fuck and reads more like some middle schooler's fantasy.' I don't read books to subject myself to that, so I review it badly with those kinds of comments (adding to the many that are already there that I didn't heed because I wanted to give it a chance) and, when talking about it with others readers, tell them about my thoughts. Over time, others just continue passing the books on by because, presumably, they want to *actually enjoy* their leisure time reading and that's understandable.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I take your point of course - when I first read Heinlein at age 14 (this was late 1970s) I found him prurient even then and those were different times as they say. Although I like three of his novels, others I've found unreadable to terrible and funnily enough, I'm reading/re-reading some of his earliest work now and cannot stand the way his characters talk. However, as readers interested in the development of an Evolutionary/Revolutionary Modernist genre like SF, you have to be able to be a bit obective about these things - one of the moments in Heinlein that some writers ten to twenty years his junior cite is the use of the sentence "The door dilated." in a story- this was groundbreaking and became a trope that soon spread into SF cinema. Ultimately, reading is subjective and we'll call have our different takes on things. I can think of many books that routinely make the reference books and imprints like Gollancz Masterworks that I personally disliked and that I'd rather not have read- but I would say that the older books in these contexts are, because of their place in the chronology of the development of SF are understandably 'Classic'= - I'm re-reading 'Foundation' currently and it is dreadfully dull and clunky in parts, but its influence is undeniable- there would be no 'Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy' without it (I prefer Sheckley to Adams but that's another anecdote) even though the majority of readers of the latter, more entertaining book don't realise it. It is, after all, easier to improve on something existing than to create something from scratch...

[@avidreader8521]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal That is both true and fair, but for readers that are reading for academic purposes (ie: readers who aren't like 'I think sounds cool and interesting' but who are like 'I want to spot formative bits of blah-de-blah and trace the evolution of some particular concept over the decades.' I have read books with that mindset (usually nonfiction, in my case), but that's not how most readers approach most books, which is what I thought your commentary was on.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@avidreader8521 Yes, but 'most readers' isn't a qualifier I'm making- just because something is popular, doesn't make it right. The 'academic' view as you call it is valid and SF is different to other forms of fiction because of its construction - the Novum ('new thing') that makes it SF. If you want comfort, fine, but great SF relies on turning the perception upside down, so different criteria should be applied.

[@erikaeriksson9840]

As a female fantasy reader that has read fantasy for some odd 35 years I have the same problem with finding new quality fantasybooks to read in the endless sea of generic romance fantasy. I'm not interested in smut and especially not in the Stockholm Syndrome kind of books where a captive female caracter falls in love with a controlling man/kidnapper/jailor. They give me the creeps! Any fantasy authors I should look up, that I might have missed considering I still read childrens books in the early eighties? Any new fantasy authors I should check out? I go through around 70-80 books a year so I often run out of interesting things to read and keep re-reading authors I know and love.

[@seannyhan2254]

Not really "new", but I enjoy K. J. Parker Lois McMaster Bujold Martha Wells Iain M Banks Anne Leckie Gene Wolfe Roger Zelazny Jack Vance

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I'd say look at the list someone else has posted below- remember, new isn't essentially best, but while I'd endorse some of the below, you need to to look back to the originators. A new edition of my book '100 Must Read Fantasy Novels' will appear next year -watch this channel for an announcement- and that will steer you.

[@erikaeriksson9840]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I meant quality authors that might be new to me. 😊 100 good fantasy books? That sounds like a book right up my alley. I could use it as a bucket list and cross out everything I already read. Will it be stand-alones or series or both?

[@erikaeriksson9840]

@@seannyhan2254 This seem promising. 👍 I meant "new" as in new to me since I realize that there probably is a tonne of good books I missed out on. I only read some books that might count as SF, some by William Gibson, a few by George Martin, The Long Earth series by Pratchett/Baxter, the Red Dwarf series (of course) and Douglas Adams. Any recommendations along those lines would be welcome as well.

[@seannyhan2254]

@@erikaeriksson9840 KJ Parker is a pseudonym for Tom Holt. He's written a bunch of books under his own name that are reminiscent of Terry Pratchert. Robert Aspin's "Phule's Company" and his "Myth" series are quite good, and very funny. For fantasy, I also recommend Glen Cook and Steven Brust. Going further back, CL Moore is really good. For pulpy fun, Karl Edward Wagner and Seabury Quinn are fun too.

[@jackkaraquazian]

I'm not sure you really touched much on the massive consolidation that occurred in publishing as the corporations moved in during the 90s, and we're down to the big five publishers, often merely part of a much larger group, who are often risk averse and more interested in what easily makes money. That's where the drive towards what sells came from. I don't think we can hope for scraps from those publishers to rebuild SF. Horror was also pretty much wiped out during that consolidation, but we can't ignore changing tastes and the influence of movies and TV. The visual medium especially drives the public view of what SF represents and who the audience should be, and is often quite restrictive in what kinds of SF it portrays. The novels can be seen as for "geeks" (the contemporary definition of the word) or "nerds" unless absorbed into literary fiction. Blaming readers is always an easy out but readers will gravitate towards what they are interested in, which is how it should be. It's up to those selling the books to draw the interest of readers. And if they've successfully build a YA fantasy to mature fantasy pipeline then that's pretty smart of them business wise. And pretty hard to replicate given the lack of reading amongst boys. I grew up reading Douglas Hill and John Christopher. Where are the YA science fiction books for this generation? Then there's the increasing backlash against science within contemporary culture, or anything that seems scientific. A shift away from the fantastical, and hope in the future in general, towards the mundane. A change for the better would need to be reader driven, especially in this demand driven age, but the readers need to be there and supporting outfits like Titan and Solaris who still seem to do quite well at getting their books into shops. When it comes to older work though, the various Masterworks collections also seem to be quite common and get those important books in front of readers.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

I didn't touch on it as that wasn't my focus in this, obviously - but of course I saw this going on around me in my decades in the trade and yep, it didn't essentially help SF. I think you make a lot of valid points here.

[@jackkaraquazian]

@@outlawbookselleroriginalyeah, as usual your videos are a good jumping off point for discussion.

[@kylepinion]

I’m largely a capitalist, so take this with a grain of salt but a huge part of the problem is the consolidation of the major publishers under giant corporate umbrellas. The emphasis is placed on the biggest profits possible without any thought towards artistic merit or future growth. We make fun of Terry Brooks, which fair enough, but long gone are the days when Judith del Rey would spend years with a young author like him developing his and other’s voices. Now we just have a glut of samey looking covers and concepts, all rushed out as quickly as possible. On the reader makeup front, it feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Here in the states at least, our literacy crisis continues to grow unabated and young women tend to be the only reliable readers genre publishers can count on. So they don’t make as many new books aimed at young men because they don’t buy them, but young men don’t buy them because the publishers don’t make the effort. What came first? And the few fantasy books that do anpproach being all audience appealing are often more wrapped up in building their “magic systems” and playing out like big budget blockbusters than their prose. A D&D-ification of the genre that makes Brooks and Feist look like poet laureates by comparison.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, it has been different since more and more publishers snowballed together- on both sides of the pond. I saw this taking place in the UK through the 80s and 90s. I similarly feel a strange affection now for the early Fantasy boomers...and as you say, because we're in the '3 strikes and you're out' publishing model now, who does spend time developing authors?

[@kennyrh9269]

From the very little fantasy that I've read I've always thought of it as sub-Tolkien tripe. This may be a little harsh but I can only speak as I find. I know it's not always wise to make direct comparisons but how do you think the general standard of fantasy writing compares with, say, the better sf writers of the 60s/70s. Also do you see in your job that TV shows like The Witcher and Game of Thrones drive general fantasy book sales unrelated to those shows ?

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Hi Kenny, good to hear from you. My general feeling is, with very few exceptions once the book got going in 77, that most Genre Fantasy - and by this I mean Sword & Sorcery and High Fantasy (pretty much the same thing, as 'The Encyclopedia of Fantasy' by Grant and Clute says) is formulaic crap that uses the same tired old tropes again and again to provide comfort fodder for readers who are, in the main, pretty unimaginative- it's the direct opposite of good SF (bearing in mind Sturgeon's Law that '90% of everything is crud, including SF'). I like a lot of the classic Sword & Sorcery from Howard up to Moorcock, find Tolkien dull as a prose stylist but as a phenomena fascinating). From 77 onwards, the trilogies that become endless series are done entirely for commercial rather than artistic reasons with virtually no exceptions and the old volume 1 cast assembly volume 2 quest volume 3 final battle after you've collected plot coupons is simply Tolkien-mirroring beyond a joke. Fantasy in the broader, more literary sense often appeals to me. But I am generally angry about the way that younger readers have been programmed into series and this has had a massively detrimental effect upon SF publishing- not that there weren't always series, but once you get the Banks effect from 1986 onwards, Space Opera resurges and he, Hamilton, Reynolds et al seem incapable of every delivering a singleton- and when they do, people don't want it half the time, just the same familiarity. This drives me nuts, as it's very rarely as satisfying as good SF as a story that starts with a novum and climaxes with one or more conceptual breakthroughs that make you go 'WOW!'. As for TV series, well, 'Game of Thrones' had a HUGE impact on getting people who had never even considered reading Genre Fantasy into reading it. In some ways, this was good, as it allowed me to sell writers like Zelazny to middle-aged businessmen who'd normally play golf and expand their horizons, which they enjoyed enormously. But mostly, it hasn't been a good thing, I feel. As Christopher Priest once said to me "I hate books with maps in them," as he felt that the writer shouldn't need this to lure readers into an exciting unknown territory: then yesteday, I overheard two young guys talking about Fantasy and how having a map in the frontispiece indicated a 'good book...'. Tells you everything, really!

[@kennyrh9269]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal Well you would know better than I Stephen but your summation is pretty much as I suspected. Anyway, thanks for your comprehensive reply.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@kennyrh9269 My pleasure mate!

[@neiltaylor513]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal😂 I read some sci-fi but I mostly read fantasy, and found through the years, in media like Fear and SFX magazine reviews something I can only describe as sci-fi snobbery, and disdain against fantasy, I find it hilarious, like somehow, I’m a sci-fi reader, I’m better then you poor poor fantasy reader.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@neiltaylor513 Well, the reality is- or was, since SF is also in such a poor state now- that Genre Fantasy (with a few exceptions) is -after 1977, when the boom starts- far less interrogative of serious questions than SF is. That's a default, since Fantasy is really about Anachronism and the past, when SF is about the Present and Future- only literary fantasy escapes this trap. Genre Fantasy is, generally speaking, formulaic and repetitive and utterly unlike SF in its philosopical standpoint. Also, the two readerships have been moving apart at an ever-greater velocity for decades now and they are only really linked historically now. But if someone is reading 'sci fi'- the lowest common denominator, that's no better, really.

[@macrosense]

Both genres are often somewhat marginal most of the time. There are spikes in popularity here and there

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, they are 'somewhat marginal most of the time' and 'there are spikes in popularity here and there' but you're saying nothing here that takes into account the development of the genres in a commercial sense in a historical context.

[@JulianBills]

A lot of young men who would have read SF have been diverted to video games. Games are often about problem solving in an SF setting, there is a lot in common. I think men spending time reading is unfashionable, games have the sociability factor of solving a problem together.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

A number of people here have mentioned the impact of gaming on reading and SF in particular: I can only agree. I think a lot of young gamers are lost to the world of reading maybe forever...

[@chrisw6164]

If your spaceship crashes on a planet that is otherwise a fantasy world, it’s still sf lol

[@phantasticflox]

Surely, it would be a mix of sci-fi and fantasy then.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

If the 'Fantasy World' includes supernatural events- that would make it Fantasy not SF-then the supernatural exists in that imagined universe, so you can put all the tech in you like, it's Fantasy. That's why Silverberg's 'Lord Valentine's Castle' - though set on an alien world - is Fantasy (it features magic) not SF.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

There is no such thing- the two are mutually exclusive: SF is about Science, which is about what's natural, Fantasy is delineated by including magic/the supernatural/religion as real, but not Scientifically explicable- if the magic is then 'explained' scientifically in the story, it's SF. Two different genres, two different philosophies- watch my videos in the 'Elements of Science Fiction' series here, especially the one of the differences between the two genres.

[@JozefLewitzky]

Obviously, taste plays a big role here, but I do think there is a broad spectrum of SF being published that interests friends of mine and myself (we're millennials). I'm sure many of the ideas are just rehashs of older works, but in terms of storytelling, most of it seems on par with other genres I read today. I read lots of literary fiction as well, and while it's generally better written, I'm happy enough with contemporary books in both. There's quite a bit that incorporates SF elements nowadays too, which I appreciate, like St. John Mandel, Ishiguro, Egan, Murakami, Murata, and Mitchell. For myself, in no particular order, Jeff Vandermeer, Ann Leckie, Cixin Liu, Ken Liu, Ted Chiang, Becky Chambers, N.K. Jemisin, and Arkady Martine have all been enlightening reads. I also believe I'd enjoy The Expanse series if I read it, as I loved the show. I just haven't felt the need to pick it up yet. I've been meaning to get to Watts and Tchaikovsky too. I'm not that interested in the new YA-esque fantasy boom, but there's lots to love in the fantasy genre too (my personal favorite is Rothfuss). Suzanna Clarke's Piranesi was also fantastic.

[@JozefLewitzky]

Unrelated, but I found a beautiful A-format of Silverburg's The Book of Skulls today, so it was good day for book hunting :)

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Hi Jozef- I've read these authors and although I feel some have their merits, their work is, quite frankly, to an experienced reader like myself, generally pretty routine- but in time you'll doubtless cast your net more widely and see them in a bigger context (Ted Chiang, good as he is, is typical of the kind of literary SF standard that was very, evry commonplace in the 70s and 80s. There has always been tons of 'literary fiction' that is actually SF and now, as writers realise we live in the future, more mainstreamers are doing it. I love Ishiguro's prose, prefer the other Murakami and as for DAvid Mitchell, have met him once, LOVELY guy! Keep on going my friend, let me know how you find 'The Book of Skulls'.

[@JozefLewitzky]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal Yea, makes total sense. About 15 years ago I got religiously into Anime, watched about 300 series over the course of about 7 years, and I still watch 5 to 10 series a year. However, because I got to watch all the classics in a condensed period of time, there's only a few new ones each year I find at all interesting. Im not certain I'd say the medium has gotten worse over time, but it certainly feels like its filled with a lot more chaff now to me.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@JozefLewitzky 300! That, my friend is serious commitment! An interesting (if sometimes irritating) English writer called Geoff Dyer wrote a book about 'Stalker' (based on 'Roadside Picnic' by the Strugatsky Brothers) called 'Zona' - in it he theorises that we all find our "last word" on a artform we like by out mid thirties and I think he may have a point.

[@JozefLewitzky]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal It rings sadly true - of course we want to believe we remain open-minded, but those formative, explosive experiences are so strong.

[@thesci-fished]

Great insights, very interesting. Sci-fi... eye roll...lol, but SF shed just doesn't sound the same 😂😂😂

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

The eyes will continue to roll, I'm afraid. If I had a tattoo- not likely, ever- it would read 'SF until Death'.

[@thesci-fished]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal I can't argue with that 😁 keep up the great work. 👍

[@dhollongstreet4725]

I do not have a problem with female writers some great series have been penned. I have a problem with writers like Kevin Hearne who put in a crap load of political nonsense. Women do have a tendency to go into political nonsense, soon as I see something about the patriarchy I am done with the author. (15% is a darn low number of male writers,......I think this is also due to political nonsense)

[@ExpatRiot79]

I think there's a lot of complex things going on with publishing, but yes, I do feel female writers and readers are having an overall negative impact on what makes it into the mainstream. Also the wokeness factor, which I feel is behind at least five years now of terrible crap making into print.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

As I say I think any negative female impact on quality is indirect- though there are of course lots of bad books written by women and by men. I'd say it's longer than 5 years, but agree that the last five have been worse than I can ever remember...

[@hagakure222]

Also, 70%+ of powerful positions in publishing are taken by women.... Will the universe rebalance itself?? 😂😂😂

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

Yes, this is borne out by my long experience.

[@seanmurphy7011]

"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." - Billy Madison, 1995

[@hagakure222]

Yes, try and find any female written fantasy or SF without a LGTBQ character nowadays?? Good luck

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

True- but it's happening in SF written by men too- only a few dare not go down this marketing route...

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

And why shouldn't a reader disagree with you? Presumably, you believe in diversity- so you must allow difference: 'diversity' as a word derives from 'difference'. Only by allowing difference can we be truly diverse. This isn't just semantic - if a writer or reader does not want to focus on a fashionable showing of a narrow idea of diversity, why should they? For truly diverse artistic expression, exclusivity actually allows difference. Think about it.

[@hagakure222]

@@outlawbookselleroriginal what percentage of their editors, bosses and peers is female? 😂😂😂 And how many of those editors and peers have NOT gone to university and actually had 'diverse' jobs outside their industry previously? (I'd call them REAL jobs but I don't want to offend😉) I don't remember seeing an abundance of LGBTQ flags and bunting when purchasing my copies of 'forever war' and 'dhalgren' back in the late 90s... I have the pleasure of attending 100s of book events and many literature festivals yearly and the amount of times I have to bite my tongue because the panels (all female most of the time) just simply hate and ridicule on men is unreal. They bang on about the patriarchy but neglect to mention the fact that most writers are female, most readers are female and that over 70% of the decision makers in publishing are female. We need more 'diversity of thought' 'diversity of experience' and 'diversity of class' in publishing. Currently, it is acting like a homogenous blob devouring everything with a single message, and we know what the damned message is. I mean, going to fantasy and science fiction events nowadays is an exercise in victimhood with the non-White writers complaining about racism and colonisation and female writers complaining about the patriarchy EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. It is INSANE! (if by a miraculous chance there is a red-blooded straight white male author involved, he simply nods and agrees with everything the others say - even when it is outlandish 💩) The best anecdote I have is of one writer who decided to 'rewrite' her debut novel because she had one character call another 'a bitch' and thats when she realized she had 'internalised misogyny' and simply had no choice but to rewrite the whole book. UNREAL For the love of God and all that is holy, stop this mess. I mean I just counted 25 pride flags on the shelves of the CHILDREN'S section in foyles. Science fiction is dying, 'the message' is the virus. Everything woke turns to shit.

[@neiltaylor513]

@@outlawbookselleroriginalwhat is sad about, if you go onto good reads and some of the questions are is there LGTBQ in it? Like they won’t read it if there isn’t.

[@outlawbookselleroriginal]

@@neiltaylor513 Well, this is exactly the problem - LGBTQ+ is simply a fashion in contemporary fiction. It's not as if alternative sexuality was never covered before in fiction, when anyone who knows literature realises it goes back a long way and in genre SF to the end of the 1950s. It's symptomatic of the idea that 'what is happening now must be the most 'Modern'' and reveals only cultural ignorance, sadly.