Are Fighting Games harsher than Shooters?

[@HQRubbish]

The volume might be like 8 db too low, but what a hair-day!

[@stoop..kid..]

Definitely a hair day 👍

[@armorparade]

I think some of it also comes down to how it feels to get that "lucky hit"(as much as i hate calling it luck) In a FPS, if you get a headshot, it immediately feels good even if you have no knowledge of how to use that to gain/maintain map control, or whatever game specific situation you want to enforce using that kill you got. In a FG, people will often get a hit and then not confirm it into anything, and when they lose they'll vastly overrate the gap between them and their opponent. You hit your opponent then stopped holding the mouse button after the first hit, so they shot back and now you're dead. I think this is where games with(well-designed) autocombos succeed- they make it a lot easier to understand the impact of your actions without restricting the player in an attempt to shoehorn them into the right decisions. Games like Persona 4 Arena, BBTag, and Under Night have done this fantastically. Very good video by the way, I really like your stuff(and your hair is fantastic today!)

[@HQRubbish]

I agree that this "feel of accomplishment" is probably a feather in FPS's cap. I hadn't however considered the idea of auto-combos in the equation but it slots very neatly in place. Also adds up to a lot of the feedback I was hearing from casuals and the game press around the time of DBFZs release.

[@WrenchfarmVideo]

I have non-gamer friends who are horror fans. I set up MKX so they could mess with Jason and Leatherface and they had a blast. Doing strings and blocking within the hour. Picked it up like nothing. Fighting games have tons of depth, but it's very easy to dip into the shallow end and have a good time immediately

[@HQRubbish]

I definitely think there is truth in this, a lot of the negatively charged rhetoric surrounding FGs stem from regurgitated opinions that are perhaps not always so truthful.

[@HQRubbish]

Also, you sound like a cool friend. Happy to hear you guys had a blast!

[@zackswitch9656]

True, but the learning curve is so steep

[@tabkg5802]

Lmao this chance thing people bring up is stupid for fps too. Every competitive fps (main example being Quake, CS and R6S) do not allow weaker player to win, because even the bare bones thing like aim and shoot do not translate one-to-one to from one fps to another. And there is no need to mention that the main thing fps games is usually map control. Weaker player will literally get oneshoted through walls in those games lmao. The only fps games where weaker players win are games like CoD or BF, which aren't aimed at esports. Like it's the same as saying that weaker players can win in fighting games because Brawlhalla exists lmao. And bringing up OW is even funnier considering that Quake pros beat the shit out of OW pro's in their own game lmao. Only chance pro loses is if he either has bad team, or picks a low tier against broken character

[@HQRubbish]

A bit unsure if you missed the specific wording used for "winning" (both by that podcast and me). I don't think the dudes in the podcast were saying a beginner can win a match vs a pro in an FPS. They were saying it is way easier to get a stray kill in on a veteran in those systems. The entire idea of the video is that they then conflate getting one kill with getting a round or a match in a fighting game when they are not the same thing. I do agree with you though that there are definitely FPS games where the beginner DOES NOT stand any remote chance of even getting a "random" kill in on a veteran, specifically 1v1 games and those with resource stack as core mechanics. That being said, I don't think the people in the podcast were talking about Quake when they said FPS in the year 2021, sad as that may be.

[@genuwine21]

I find fighting games as a concept easier however I think what gives fuel to the FPS argument is the number of concepts you have to learn to be able to really play. However really playing in FPS games also requires a lot of information and concepts. People just choose to see past that difficulty. My old genre of choice was MOBAs, very complex with tons of concepts you have to get past to be able to play even below par. However when I first started looking at fighting games I thought there waa so much to learn until I had to explain how to play a MOBA and a fighting game to a friend I was trying to get into gaming with me. Fighting games won out because they needed to know only a few things to function while learning a MOBA required so much info it bored them.

[@HQRubbish]

That's interesting, I definitely find the idea that the FGC tends to overtly push this idea of complexity familiar.

[@genuwine21]

@@HQRubbish It is impossible to be amazing on day 1, but I think like you said in the video, if victory is getting a hit in, then a new player can easily do it. If you teach a player how to antiair (normal), do a special (fireball or rush punch), throw, and block they know enough to play. It would be interesting to compare that to what you need to know to navigate a shooter or other genres.

[@trigunn3414]

Lmao "moba are complex" when moba pros say 99% of the game matter in the draft pick 🤡🤡🤡💩

[@garageink74]

As someone from the 90s. (You don’t need to time travel, we are still alive…. Barely) I agree. Fighting games are much more intuitive to me then a modern FPS.

[@HQRubbish]

It's easy to forget that we are largely what we do.

[@LoudButtons]

I think it's really what you are used to. Fighting games don't play like almost any other type of game but many games played from a first person view share similar control schemes. If you play a lot of games, even if you've never played CSGO, you probably already understand how to play on a basic level. However if you've ever seen someone try to play an FPS that has never played games you might see that they find it difficult or impossible to move and aim at the same time. My friends mom is trying to learn how to play games to understand her work better and she cannot move the camera and her character at once. I had her try Ultra Street Fighter 2 and while she couldn't do special moves she was able to move around and do attacks which made her feel like she was doing something on a basic level. It really is all about perspective and prior experience I think.

[@ukyoize]

I think what helps FPSesis that many genres either incorporate shooter elements or made like really elaborate FPS mod.

[@Luuklin]

I think the main reason people find shooters to be easier to get into is that you don't need to be any good at them to play a sensible match. When two crappy Tekken players fight each other, they just mash a bunch of buttons and have no idea what's going on, so they're not really engaging with the concepts that make fighting games interesting in the first place. When two crappy Call of Duty players fight each other, they run around, shoot, and throw grenades. They might be bad, but they're still engaging with the things that the game is about.

[@HQRubbish]

I get the feeling you might be comitting to the same (in my opinion) sort of fallacious thought as in the video. Beginners, I would argue, are even if button mashing (though that is an extrem example) engaging with "what a fighting game is about" as long as they are hitting eachother. I think there's an misrepresantation here in what is "baseline engagement" for fighting games contra a FPS. That being said I feel like FPS games probably make it easier for the beginner to feel like their very very baseline of "correct" interaction with the game system is meaningful. But again I would argue that this a difference in experience not in what is "factually going on" in either of the systems.

[@Luuklin]

@@HQRubbish A huge part of what makes fighting games interesting is the RPS decision making of reads, mixups, option coverage, etc. This entirely goes over the heads of most beginners. When players aren't considering their choices in a genre about making choices, it's not a surprise that they'll feel like something isn't right about their matches.

[@HQRubbish]

@@Luuklin Sure, but the same thing goes for FPS games. The strategic aspect of those games cannot be broken down into "Who can point the cursor the best". Again I'm not saying that it is necessarily wrong for people to experience fighting games as harsher than FPS games, I just don't find that the argument seems to stretch further than how the game state presents "good" and "bad" outcomes. I'm sure if FGs were played in a more similar competitive ruleset the experience would fall more in-line. Imagine a setting were you died in one or two hits (a la Bushido Blade) but we opted for way more rounds to make the outcome more favorable to the stronger player. Getting a "Lucky hit" in this instance is just as "easy" as in our current one and impacts the overall match outcome in the same way. But it would probably come with a larger feeling of accomplishment.

[@Scroteydada]

My mind goes to in-game currency. What if the game told you what feats give you fight money. Like when a match ends you get a screen that gives you a "health depleted bonus" or a "Counter hit bonus" or a "combo bonus" or whatever. People don't care if they suck if you tell them that what they did let's them buy virtual drip.

[@oyoyoyo7624]

I applaud this idea

[@CallMiiBishop]

I think the big thing that goes ignored with regards to learning fighting games vs shooters is the games landscape outside of the competitive multiplayer experience. When you think of the marquee releases that have dominated sales for a while, (gears of war, uncharted, the last of us, far cry, cyberpunk, destiny, and so on) the majority of these games are shooters of some description, with a fairly standardized control scheme that lets you go between them with relative ease. Most people going into a competitive game today are more likely to have experience with shooter mechanics than fighting game mechanics, which makes the transition from total novice to playing with intentionality a lot easier in those games. While I agree that fighting games aren't intrinsically harder to play, I do think they're harder to get into for that reason alone.

[@locdogg86]

that and they don't pull in a large audience in that isn't interested in being competitive.

[@trigunn3414]

Also in the core mechanic shooter barely take any skill its an obvious fact to anyone with half a QI Just like auto combo fighting games this is casual easy mode genres Moba also is a pretentious genre of gaming since all that matter is what you pick even esport pros say it its not coming from me Conclusion : Shooters and moba take no skill just pick meta and win FG and RG take skill

[@somniphobia4228]

@@trigunn3414 shooters take no skill? i can't take you serious, LMAO

[@metalgeartrusty]

there was no MnK or controllers in early arcade. arcade layout is better/more intuitive for fighters/beat-em ups, unless it was a lightgun game. makes sense that sf2 sold the most on early console, then gamer base gravitated towards more "intuitive" games. i also agree that u can make an "unintuitive" gun game and u can make a "more intuitive" fighting game. although, at this point, the popularity of the base genre would be a big factor in the popularity of the specific project. im hoping things like rollback, sf6 alternate controls and project L will be a big swing upward for fighters. i love the ttk point. it shows how vast vertically the ceiling is compared to shooters. id love more analysis on ttl, or time to lose. even if the ttk in shooters is short, u have time to adapt and make adjustments. the ttl in fighters can be so quick in comparison, 2 rounds is the whole game (for one and doners) and its very unintuitive to adapt to knowledge checks in different matchups so quickly. i saw ur "u have no control" vid and i totally agree that ranked can be random, cuz it is. adding a casual ft 10 mode, or infinite rematch (still not in sfv) would do so much in terms of helping players do what they are supposed to do, which is learn and grow (i know there are player lobbies, but its better to have matchmaking match ppl up. nobody wants to wait in line to play unless they are hanging with friends, and the 2 player lobbies are usually full and hard to find. u can say the conclusion is emotional, but tons of us have the same emotions on this. a kill FEELS better in a shooter, and queing ranked is way less random. i prefer fighters and have quit shooters altogether. shooters are slow, compared to the constant gameplay in a fighter. and nothing FEELS as good as learning a fighter. good luck telling that to the masses, but im sure we will krrp saying it and we should

[@duel2803]

i think more people also grew up playing shooting games more so it’s easier for most to pick up than a fighting game

[@footwurk92]

Great Video! Is it possible I can have that BGM playing during your video?

[@HQRubbish]

Cheers, the track is called Sleeplessness by The Brothers Records

[@footwurk92]

@@HQRubbish Thank you!

[@Mushiotaku]

Press 2 repeatedly for intuitive thought

[@HQRubbish]

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[@vivou5465]

"Lucky hit" in fps doesn't really matters and isn't really much more than an excuse to be honest. A skilled players will just be far more "consistent" over a new players whose shots are random. A noobs may take a round per chance but a match revolve around more than one round (25 or more in CSGO for exemple). In game where the ttk is higher (Halo/Quake/Apex) it's not even a question, a skilled player with better movement, map knowledge and aim will absolutely destroy a noob without taking a single death.

[@HQRubbish]

I think you just made the exact point of the video more or less word for word.

[@silvera1886]

Algorithm boosting comment

[@ArjunTheRageGuy]

Well... fighting games involve hitstuns. Shooters don't, unless if it's something like Overwatch with the stun mechanic in it.

[@Arunnejiro]

Tell them to play masters in apex legends and ask if they have the same opinion lmao.

[@vaimast2825]

In figthing games you have to work insanely hard to beat a player of better ranking, the satisfaction its amazing but I suspect you arent that good

[@HQRubbish]

Ok.

[@trigunn3414]

Its obvious both shooters and moba take no skill this is an obvious fact to anyone with half a QI

[@vivou5465]

Fighting game players in a fps trying not to aim like they have final stage Parkinson while tracking an opponent who is tap strafing and bhopping into oblivion (challenge impossible they only know how to move left and right)