Are forged knives better?!?! Forged vs stock removal.

For the book by Larrin Thomas: amzn.to/3JD49qi
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[@letstalkcaliber704]

If you forge your knife and don't know what you're doing it's easy to over cook it and ruin your blade.

[@tylersharp5751]

It’s honestly pretty easy to figure out tho you have then internet it’s not the 1800’s so yeah you can but it just sounds like you did zero prep work in making a blade whatsoever and just said how hard can it be

[@drdozer]

​@@tylersharp5751 just curiosity but have you ever forged a knife

[@bloodgout]

@@tylersharp5751you have no idea what you’re talking about

[@WarriorInWaiting]

Easy to "overcook" a knife? Buddy I've been working with metal my whole life and when it comes to blades its just as easy to fuck up the heat treatment on a forged blade made from a leaf spring as it is with a cut piece of sheet steel in the shape of a knife, it's all in the quench, you gotta bring that steel up to temperature either way and it's easy to mess up no matter what steel you're working with.

[@tylersharp5751]

@@WarriorInWaiting This may be True but here’s the thing I have been powerlifting and variety of other methods for a decade that doesn’t mean by some method I have discovered the best way for everyone to lift and neither did Mike mentzer , you can be working with blades for 50 years how am I as a beginner to do anything but trust your words I cannot verify them if I am as you say below your skill level have you ever considered that maybe just because it’s easier doesn’t necessarily mean it’s best as metallurgy and working with metal are two different topics.

[@whotubedyou]

our boy brought reference material!

[@blake0948]

Im a beginner blade smith and in my opinion if your forging your using found steel or pieces of steel that arent the thickness or length youd like so you make it into what youd like, stock removal is just the size steel you already want so you just cut and grind the knife no need for forging.

[@madmax82988]

Sheesh I don't give a shitty dick how my knife is made as long as it's strong, sharp, looks decent, and holds an edge.

[@Smartass-pl3nx]

“I don’t give a shitty dick” that’s a new one!

[@user-kb7pg9ip2e]

Stock removal has been what I did for my first 2 and only 2 knives that I made, definitely easier to get behind the idea of that than heating it up and beating it for hours

[@mr.lawless8235]

I really like forged blades very much..,.......I also feel the same about Damascus. I have several stock removal also that I have used for years with virtually no problems. ❤❤❤❤😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@sleepingontheblacktop6053]

I’m glad someone that knows more than me finally said it. If I’m using forged stock to grind my knives from, doesn’t that mean the knife is technically forged? I’ve always been called stupid for using that logic. So thank you sir. Love your work!

[@EODReddFox]

Thank you for specifying your starting stock. Stock removal on certain steel IS inferior to forging, but not rule of thumb. Starting on forged and/or formed stock is generally more than good.

[@ezurth]

personally i prefer forging my knives mainly just because i find it therapeutic and really like the look of hammer marks but at the end of the day it's just that, preference

[@nicholasevans9627]

All I care about is quality, a good HRC and good heat treat. If a marker doesn't have the skill and knowledge to achieve the above, then I am not interested in their product.

[@joshmajor8662]

I forge mine but your absolutely right Lol 😂 I just prefer to be able to say “I forge them” over I grind them 🤷‍♂️ haha

[@edfab2873]

Grinding one out is better than beating one out. 😉

[@calculatedsurvival]

HAHA!!!

[@kingming9712]

Ah you did a good one

[@Barefoot-Jaycee]

You win the internet today

[@Mandalore06]

I'd have to judge that on a case by case basis

[@jacobalstott93]

I beat one out almost every night 😅

[@libruhmoment6387]

If I were a buisness I'd use stock removal for sure, but if I made a few for myself I'd forge the profile and stuff in, just makes better use of material at a smaller scale

[@Hunting4Hookers]

I just ordered that book! Thanks for the tip! I know nothing about making knives but desperately want to learn!

[@zacholmes1532]

I forge my knives to about 70% or 80% because I enjoy the process and the nostalgia. I don't throw shade at anyone though for making knives in a way that works for them.

[@matthiasthulman4058]

If you were just stamping these out with a machine, I could see the argument that it's not really "handmade" But cutting it out of a sheet, then profiling, adding edges/bevel etc, plus handles sounds pretty labor intensive to me. Almost like it's handmade. I don't know though, I make chainmail stuff not knives.

[@mattsilvaarmwrestling]

Saving passed down to the user. As long as the blanks are coming from a quality distributor.

[@calculatedsurvival]

I get my blanks from New Jersey Steel Baron.

[@airbus7808]

Great analogy about the ingot.

[@ItsCrap97]

Analogy? Did you just think steel slabs form in nature?

[@Lukelikesmissiles]

I have nothing but respect for you man, quality products and a quality videos.

[@horvathbenedek3596]

Grain structure absolutely plays a role, but for a long, thin object like a knife the rolled sheet steel gives close to perfect grain structure. Forging can add to the strength of an object when it comes to complex shapes; this is why drop forging, if implemented correctly, can strengthen a work piece compared to traditional stock removal or casting. If instead of a knife you'd be making a halberd, we could make a case for a forged construction from a single piece of metal resulting in a stronger tool overall.

[@mikedrop4421]

What kind of idiots think a dude in his shop can forge better quality steel than a multimillion dollar foundry? Lol. It's like the tamahagne makes the katana magical. Like um no, your Chinese HSS chisles from harbor freight are better steel than katana steel.

[@Lexrexcustom]

Excellent information my friend. Forged blades are cool, but not any different metallurgically from stock removal with modern steel.

[@Entiox]

They can be different metallurgically, but only because a lot of the modern super steels don't take to forging well and should just be used for stock removal.

[@Lexrexcustom]

@@Entiox sure, in that specific case the stock removal would probably be a stronger blade.

[@autumn5592]

If properly heat treated, there's no difference.

[@SonoraSlinger]

I like forging mine. But I also like grinding mine. You're absolutely right, time and consistency are better on stock removal

[@bradleycole2655]

The only difference is if a blacksmith does and heat cycles which do help the grain structure but other than that it's more a hobby than practical

[@Sverd_Ok_Skjoldr]

Forged knives are less consistent, have more imperfections, and are generally worse. That's what I like about them. Even in swords Tod Cutler makes purposefully imperfect blades, and that makes them more interesting and unique. Does Albion Swords make better swords? Yes.

[@bloodgout]

Do you want something that can tolerate high stresses and won’t have inclusions, cold shuts, delams or other flaws?

[@crawbag0311]

Did I just stumble into a knife fudd argument! Let the battle commence.

[@MikeRehfuss]

The Fuddery is strong on this

[@presidentmerkinmuffley6769]

Sadly this is knives not guns so it will only be a flash in the pan.

[@Horde334]

I've grown to call them "uncle randy" the typical uncle or person who's only every carried gerber or buck fixed blades proclaims how great the buck 110 is and frequently rambles on about hunting or how your knife has never been used if it "hasn't skinned an animal!".

[@jic1]

@@Horde334 Oh no, please don't tell me that the Buck 110 is about to become the 1911 of the knife world, and everyone's going to spend 10 years claiming it's garbage just because boomers in plaid flannel like it, before it finally becomes OK to think it's cool again.

[@obssio]

There's just something more personal about hammering the blade into shape vs cutting out a shape for me. That's why I won't do stock removal. But people who want to make mass prodo knives for easy money, more power to ya. Hell at least you know how to forge a knife.

[@Cloudstrife112233]

I like both methods. I have access to a lot of free steel that has to be forged out, so thats what i do, but i also enjoy buying dimentional steel and doing stock removal, especially if i want to make duplicates of a design.

[@flemmingpedersen567]

For me it all comes down to how I buy it: If I go to a knife smith or a specialised webshop, I expect the blades to be forged and I know that I pay a premium for the privilege of having the makers implied "seal of approval". If I go to a survival store or department store etc, I expect it to be mass-produced stamped-out versions of the same blade, knowing that most blades will be fine, very few will be brittle and none will be outstanding.

[@grandygm]

I've made planty of forged and stock removal knifes. Grinding a knife out is faster and easier. Less of a chance for something to go wrong. Less skill is necessary. Forging uses less steel to get the desired shape but you have to pay for the fuel. If you don't screw up the heat treatment and have a little bit of skill you can make a good knife fairly quickly with a grinder. The reasons I like forging is the satisfaction of swinging a hammer and shaping a piece of 1085 in to a one of a kind blade. Both will make a good knife.

[@appalachianoperator]

The grain pattern aligns in the normalizing, quenching, and tempering process

[@Joker-em6oz]

Eh kinda? Forging has better grain flow but the difference on properties is negligible.

[@manoflego123]

I have never made a knife, but I would rather trust the forging process to someone who knows what they're doing, AKA whoever forged the steel stock.

[@pstrap1311]

Yeah, plate metal is very good material. The proccessing that plate goes through is one of the reasons a weldment is preferable to a cast part of the same dimensions. Plate is stress hardened by giant rollers which does indeed effect the crystalline grain structure resulting in superior mechanical characteristics. Cast metal in comparison tends to be less strong and somewhat brittle.

[@pepegya5168]

i would trust a factory sheet grain structure to be more consistent than hand-forging. but then again it might not matter enough to have a practical difference

[@kevinAuman1]

Actually it has been proven that stock removal blades are superior to forged because of the grain structure alignment the stock removal is able to hold an edge longer, be tougher and have more flexibility so anybody against them is just leaving more knives for me so im not mad 😂

[@StuartSmithHandForgedKNives]

I do both but forging is fun.

[@Mandalore06]

I just don't see the point in paying hundreds of dollars for a "stock removal" knife. I'm better off buying Cold Steel or Esee if that's all you are doing.... The only exception I can think of is if I want custom work done and am willing to shell out for it.

[@RovingRoninEDC]

Laird Thomas!! The mind that brought us Magnacut !! Nice !! 🤙🏻

[@jaylee5692]

Just got that book and I'm loving it

[@Wilders53]

Cool. I see Jason Knight quite often around my town. He lives in Kingsport TN now. A cool dude

[@housevollmer9106]

Forging a knife to shape just shows forging skills, it proves you can forge and did forge and people like that, some people like the rough hammered finish, it also allows you to make a knife with less waste material, or take small unusable pieces and make them usable again by forge welding them together, I think the “skill was dying” and now there is much more interest in the matter

[@FrankLewis040]

What did they think the sheets of 1095 were? People act like it's cast material.

[@Noone4207I0]

I dabble in knife making. You also make knives. What I have heard and I think it's all just bro science is that when forging it strips some carbons from the metal so a forge knife will have less carbon steel in it then a stocked reduction of steels where the same. I know if you over heat steel it grows the grain but in a forge knife you are going to normalize the blade twice before heat treating. Basically it's bring the blade up to heat treat temperatures then left to air cool they do they twice then heat treat to reduce any stresses or help correct the grain from forging.

[@CurtisDavis89]

Stock will allow for more cost effective options, as forged blades can increase cost dramatically, and the time needed to make the blades!

[@BobTheGodly]

The problem isn't technicality it's what the customer expects for their money. If the customers don't like it they won't buy it. The knife guild can argue all day, but it doesn't line pockets.

[@cryptotech3463]

I prefer hand forged because it creates a more unique blade and gives the knife a soul.

[@LittleGreyWolfForge]

And it’s more of a challenge as well

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

Same, literally go out of my way to get hand forged because i can get more customization out of them and there probably aren't like 100 more of them minimum in circulation. Even on limited experience with a plasma cutter and grinder, I can make several knives in a few days machining knives. Forging, that may take a day or two just for one.

[@bloodgout]

None of that is true

[@LittleGreyWolfForge]

@@bloodgout what

[@topfueljunkie100]

"Gives the knife a soul" what does that even mean? That's obviously not a useful metric for comparing the performance or even usefulness of knives. Do you just mean more aesthetically pleasing? I can see someone preferring that over a machined looked, but even then, one can mimic a forged look (or a less machined looked) quite well using various stock removal techniques so seeking out forged blades over machined leaves it being simply a matter of taste or personal preference. All fine of course, I just fail to see how one can argue it's any better or "has soul" and stock removal knives don't (again, whatever that means).

[@WolfofSid64]

Hmm yes, the floor is made out of floor here. It's knives dude, if it cuts without snapping it's good enough for me!

[@WolfofSid64]

@damonwright4532 Ok

[@webkid4567]

​@damonwright4532 Lol sure bud. You're just as simple as everyone else, you've just chosen different things to be "simple" about.

[@judethenekogamer3651]

amateur blacksmith here yeah what he said is correct you dont need to forge if your metal is quality as is forging simply removes impurities which makes the metal better in that way but doesnt make good steel great steel from what i understand

[@Joshcustomknives]

I forge my knives because I enjoy the work. I will never shit on someone for stock removal, especially when they are in the business if selling knives.

[@gnomewarlord8962]

People seem to ignore the fact that almost all steel stock isn't cast it's rolled which is basically a fancy way of saying it's forged by a machine into the dimensions and shape needed the only feasible advantage you would get from hand forging a knife instead of just cutting one out and putting a bevel and a handle on it would be a lack of internal bending horses which rolled steel almost always has anyone has ever worked with thick plate steel knows this as soon as you start removing material it's going to start bending and twisting and ways you really don't want it to all rolled steel is like that but it is almost completely unnoticeable on thin stock

[@user-rr8yd4dc3t]

I agree about quality of the knife that is out of question quality steel will be same forged or stock removal. BUT... The forged one is gonna have a soul.

[@shorty808100]

working the metal really does change the structure i been throwing a screw driver into a wood table for about a month now it weighed 1.96oz's when i started it now weighs 2.167oz's the more i throw it, the steel compress's and becomes heaver its like shock peening push rods for a car, although stock removal blades can be decent i'm about to re-make a set of throwing knives out of 1/8 inch 5160, the mass produced ones i bought were 3/16's stainless steel and the tips were quenched too hot i'm gonna use a torch and do an edge/tip quench should make a good set

[@Joker-em6oz]

No it doesn’t. It doesn’t compress, and no your screwdriver doesn’t weigh more. You’re not god, you can’t magically create more mass out of nothing. Also what you’re describing is cold working. Density still doesn’t change though.

[@NoffingMadders]

I like forged knives because of the random hammer patterns, it gives the knives more character but smiths normally makes their knives look clean and perfect

[@paulmccarter908]

Excellent content

[@zakpeppers6594]

I feel I'd just like a forged knife. But, I'd like to forge my own knife.

[@manjitahzan9577]

Thanks for this information. This confirms my theory alright.

[@morganblackheart9468]

Pretty much any mass produced knife such as ka bar, Becker, Gerber, buck, you name it, are definitely not forged.

[@farmsgrace341]

One of the nicest FU and KMA"s I've seen😂

[@res1dentcyn1c]

I love that book. I have so many pages with sticky notes on them.

[@tonarsilverwolf6485]

the impression made me think of uncle ruckus, well done sir!

[@patrickbledsoe2176]

Cool video, I 100% agree with you

[@northmanscall]

Brother is talking facts

[@CrowofJudgement461]

Yeah I was gonna comment on the other vid after seeing so many comments about “waah they’re not forged” and point out that forging already high quality steel can decarburize it if not done correctly, but didn’t want to deal with the inevitable shitstorm that would’ve been in the replies

[@slydoorkeeper4783]

As someone who is a bit of a "forge snob", I'll also admit, you aren't wrong. I prefer forged knived, but so long as machined knives aren't prices the same as forged, I don't have an issue quality wise.

[@plasticoflamingo2952]

I want the right steel, the right edge geometry, and the proper heat treat, for what I need the knife to do. I don't care if the smith is trying to win "Forged In Fire". If you stamp it from a sheet, as long as it meets the requirements, I'm happy.

[@jerrythomas463]

I’ve used both methods. Enjoy both methods. They have their pros and cons. But one thing Jason says is just be a maker.

[@dr.chalmers7923]

Love the impression! 😂

[@jaredevers6459]

They’re right about one thing. Stock removal isn’t as skilled as forging and doesn’t deserve the same price and forged knives, because the process for forging a knife takes so much longer and experience.

[@oasis6023]

I like forged knives since i feel like paying for a expensive knife is worth. But yeah forge, and these type of knifes dont make a difference just helps my conscious on wasting money ^^

[@rhondanolen2223]

I been making knives since I was knee high to a grasshopper and in my day if you mine the oar it was hand forged

[@linfraredl4906]

Unsure how knife steels work but I know for a fact that milled receivers are better than forged due to the stresses placed on the metal during forging

[@Mr.PhillySpecial215]

"WHAT DID HE SAYYY" 😂😂😂

[@jgray7857]

My only problem with stock removal is guys saying its a hand forged knife. And charging a hand forged price for it. Ive met some shady duds that do that. Im sitting there thinking you used a plasma cutter and a belt sander. Thats not what forging means. If you say its a hand ground knife, and charge accordingly, I have no problem with that.

[@ebcm95____]

Only knife making I know is the forged in fire memes on KZbin. However, hearing that some people actually think home forged materials are somehow magically stronger than industrially forged that you buy and cut down has me flabbergasted.

[@richardbrooksshnee]

A well and properly forged knife is superior due to having larger carbides. Large carbides make a more reliable edge which you seem to be ignoring. D2 has better edge retention despite it having a weaker carbide because it has a larger carbide as compared to the supposedly superior vanadium carbide steels. Most metals are made from powder metallurgy which does not create larger carbides. Applied pressure aids allows for lower temperature carbide formation in heated metal and aids in the proliferation of larger carbides. A well forged blade will have larger carbides compared to the stock removal method, if both are made from the same stock. That said, those larger carbides are of less value away from the edge where the erosion of the vanadium carbide steel will be less than the D2. And while vanadium carbide formation begins occuring around 1000 C° from the reaction of vanadium oxides and carbon, the melting point far outstrips steel at 2684 C°, so taking advantage of the ability to force carbides together in a blade is going to take a very large amount of force to overcome the lack of temperature which would be easier in D2 as chromium carbides melting point is only 1895 C°. Forging allows a better edge than stock removal so forging being better is not a myth and the knives are not just as "strong". Forging a blade takes more skill and is extraordinarily more likely to be done incorrectly. That said, further and further from time of production the original edge means less and less and you really only want large carbides at the edge. When it comes to load bearing, the rest of the blade, smaller carbides are better. Cost vs benefit just throw D2 at it and cut off the excess. Only people that are willing to deal with the effort for the difference will probably make the blade themselves as opposed to pay for it.

[@HeyItsFreeman427]

As an amateur bladesmith, while it may not do anything functionally, hammering out a knife from bar stock is helluva lotta fun

[@kramsociety1223]

Thank you for the education sir! Have a good fourth!

[@jacobalstott93]

Probably stronger than hand forged because forged can have cracks and delams and any little imperfect can cause a blade to fail.

[@Duckrabbit_Forging]

I have no problem with people stock removaling knives. I just don't like it when they stock removal a knife then sell it as forged.

[@iamcondescending]

I have a design for my ideal camp knife, but to get it made would be like $3k. Or I could buy a bar of D2 steel, an angle grinder, a bunch of cutting discs, and a belt grinder for a few hundred dollars and make it myself... Think I'm going to make it myself.

[@49perfectss]

Honestly I just think forging them out is more fun haha. If I had to make money off of selling them I would totally cut them out instead.

[@jesseholladay5862]

Personally i think a hand forged knife has more soul, but from a manufacturing standpoint it makes absolutely no sense when you have quality stock available.

[@sethdunford6327]

you should do a blade test on one of the knives youve made yourself

[@joeymaoz7855]

Can u please review the Gerber principle

[@vandelftcrafts2958]

99% of knives are stock removal. It is cheaper, faster and mass production is just not possible with hand forging knives. even makers that usually forge will use stock removal when using damascus steel to not mess up the pattern in the steel. nothing to do with one being better its just cost efficiency. Also stock removal requires less initial investment and can be done in smaller shops.

[@windykar3705]

How about casted knives? Are they stronger?

[@CaptainHaHaa]

well done mate

[@jram7047]

The elephant in the room is that most customers buying from a custom shop / bladesmith are expected forged knifes vs sharpened blanks. If your hiding this fact I believe it's very misleading and shows low integrity. If your making knife blanks and sharpening / finishing them but your customers know this. It's all good. 99% of the knifes people buy are from a blank that a hammer never touched and they work just fine. I myself am not going to value the product the same either, hand forged vs sharpened blanks are not the same product. I can print a painting out or I can paint it... the one of a kind painting will have its own characteristics and its art.

[@JohnDoe-yg6ed]

Stock removal is def better if you’re pushing out a lot of knives per month and also don’t have the space for a whole ass smithing shop or time. Forging like hammer forging is better if you want a hammer forged finish obviously and if you just want to throw it in everyone’s face bc that seems to be all blacksmith do when they find out you only do stock removal. I can do both but I prefer stock removal because of time and like you said, consistent results . But when a full time hammer forging smith finds out all the sudden I’m not making my knives like a real man. Like duck off guy

[@Smartass-pl3nx]

Stock removal is fine, I would just prefer a forged knife.

[@dads_diy]

As far as quality. I think it depends on the skill and tools used either way. IMO forging is “more fun” because I love fire and I have loved beating things with hammers since I was a child. But I have made better looking knifes from a file than knives I’ve forged, once again skill and tools used.

[@thedamned93]

So I guess some people don't consider benchmade, spyderco, Kershaw, zt, boker, essee ect. Real knives then? Weird

[@ItsCrap97]

I always think that. Steel slabs arent just found in nature

[@jb76489]

I also pretend something isn’t worth it when I can’t do it

[@moshpitmachine]

What I will say is this, and this is coming from just an amatuer blacksmith mind you. Every blacksmith should be able to forge a knife to completion. That being said with modern steels there is nothing wrong with removing material. As long as heat treat and normalization are all done properly you'll end up with a finished product that's just as good

[@christopherr6480]

Amen!

[@jasonstemley1232]

Sorry for my ignorance, but how strong is Damascus steel knives compared to forged and or stock steel?

[@Joker-em6oz]

The same or worse

[@thespokenword6456]

A properly forged and heat treated blade is superior, that's the simple truth. However, a ground blade is adequate for most users, and another simple truth is that most 'knife makers' don't have the experience or knowledge to forge properly. Heating and bashing metal into a shape is not the same as being a Blacksmith.

[@autumn5592]

What is the difference post heat treatment?

[@thespokenword6456]

@@autumn5592 the grain structure of steel flows better when it is forged. If all things are equal- equal blade profile, equal sharpening, same kind of steel, proper heat treatment, then the forged blade will naturally be a stronger, more resilient blade.

[@autumn5592]

@@thespokenword6456 When you heat treat a blade properly (normalize, quench, temper), then there is no difference in grain structure. Normalizing 'resets' the grain to being small and evenly distributed. Forming martensite then changes the shape and composition of those grains. Post heat treatment, you are dealing with a completely different grain structure than the as-forged steel. It makes no difference if the knife was forged or ground post heat treatment.

[@Joker-em6oz]

@@autumn5592that’s wrong. Normalizing doesn’t “reset” grain. The only way to do that is to melt the metal. The martensite still forms from the same grains as what the metal has beforehand. It’s very interesting actually. You’d think it’s a complete reset as you move from one phase to another but it doesn’t. I could fully austentize a piece of steel, cool it down till it forms pearlite and ferrite/cementite then reheat it and it would preserve most of the grain of the original austentized piece.

[@strydyrhellzrydyr1345]

Honestly... To me... I feel that a forged knife... You should be able to ask more for... Like... Make 2 of the same exac shaled knives.. one you quickly grind out and build.. And the other you take your time. Forging the metal, stretching the metal and shaping it... Then finish grinding.. and building. The second one.. you can ask a decent more money for... Am i alone on this thinking????

[@rodrigoruiz976]

Do you have to do any heat treatment after stock removal?

[@calculatedsurvival]

Absolutely!

[@bloodgout]

Of course

[@rodrigoruiz976]

@@calculatedsurvival doesn’t that count as forging?

[@asomnss]

Stock removal is much more consistent, unless you have skill and experience forging you're gonna get a better result out of stock removal.