Are full power lightweight bikes the new trend?

[@wm05eb]

Just got my new amflow it’s an amazing machine highly recommend!!!!

[@AlekseyKluban]

My is still underway 😂 My old KTM Kapoho was a good ebike, but I'm excited to see "-"6 kg and "+"35% battery, sure longer trips are must.

[@ElevatedVehicles]

How much did it cost? ​@@AlekseyKluban

[@AlekseyKluban]

@@ElevatedVehicles bro I had no choice for local purchase, so took it directly from CN, also it's a lowest price on the market as well. So aprox 6k with delivery for non pro version, dude.

[@ElevatedVehicles]

@@AlekseyKluban nice! 💯🙂

[@spud139]

Wow fair play Rob just wanted to say congratulations on reaching a million subscribers. I was among some of the first subs of your channel, great to see your channel grow so much, well done.

[@marius655]

The first SL ebike was Lapierre with Fazua motor in 2018

[@e_mtb]

And what Whyte does, with the 400wh battery and the optional range extender, is something, that Focus already did in 2016 with their Focus Jam and its 378wh internal battery (but it was alloy, so it was a bit heavier)

[@bearjewmtb4827]

Everyone sleeps on the giant trance x adv ELITE Ebike. It’s the amflow mini long before amflow existed. 45lbs. 85nm. 400wh with a 250wh extender to give 659 total. Obviously the amflow is better now but I don’t know how anyone isn’t talking about it.

[@afoolishman12]

This has puzzled me as well

[@nickwooden2103]

I agree. My wife has had a Liv version and it is great. Pretty sure they did it first and there was a heap of hype around it. But now it seems like it’s forgotten about

[@rogerallison5468]

Love my Trance Elite, it rides much like a non assisted bike and still gets decent range.

[@DylanJM7]

I think the very conservative geo turns a lot of people off. I think if it was slacker more people would talk about it.

[@natesteele760]

I can’t believe more people don’t talk about it. I put a 38 and a 185x55 coil on mine and it increased the rear travel and fixed the mild geometry. Unfortunately even with a 200 watt range extender 600 watts of total battery was not enough for me so I sold the bike. I’ll be getting one of these Amflows when they make it to North America or whatever is comparable at the time.

[@shaneycarter8803]

20kg is light for an emtb regardless of motor power. The Amflow is closer to 21kg with the 800watt battery. The excellent Trek Fuel Exe at a similar price is not that much lighter. Sure power isn't everything but I can guarantee you'll be smiling when you do. The power has 5 levels that bar the last lunatic mode can be fully adjusted in the excellent Avinox App. I've owned a Trek Fuel Exe, a truly excellent bike but my new Amflow is different gravy. Faster to the top for more time coming down, what's not to like. Ps I've changed a few parts over Axs dropper, XX T Type and Code Ultimate Brakes. Had to drop the motor and battery to enable this. Inspection of the frame and internals is flawless, best frame I've ever seen for sheer build quality. In my 20+ years of building up bikes, it's up there with the greatest. Hey whatever you ride, enjoy it and stay safe 👍

[@_rhapsodist]

what's your opinion about the flex in the frame while riding?

[@shaneycarter8803]

@_rhapsodist I'm around 85kilos. I honestly can't give any negatives at all. The ride is superb, tracks the ground perfectly. No nervousness about it. The flex if there is subtle like a good frame should. I admittedly have swapped out the wheels for Zipp Moto Carbon, these have a significant amount of compliance. I have hit some decent jumps, G outs and hard, fast berms along with loads of the usual, rocks roots and mud. . It holds its line lovely. It's an awesome mix of weight, power and ride feel. I love mine pal. Can't recommend enough 👍

[@brianbathgate4944]

Very interesting times. I think the Avinox is the motor and battery that everyone wants, but not necessarily the bike they want it in. From the reviews I've seen, the Heckler SL geo powered by the Avinox motor and battery would be sweet as. I like the weight of my Levo tho - I'm 90-95kgs kitted up, so a 23-24kgs bike is fine. Nearer 20kg would be good, but I never finish 2-3hrs on my Levo wishing it was lighter or had less power.

[@rawmancemtb]

The only problem is the lack of extra battery. It's especially needed for DJI as consumes so much power. This is going to have barely a 45km range on a 800Wh battery. So really would need like a 350Wh extra battery. Bosch gen4 on a 750Wh is 60km and Powerplay on a 720Wh is 50km.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

@@brianbathgate4944 got my alloy levo down to just about 23kg A few choice upgrades over the comp spec and swapped out the 720wh battery for a 500wh one Range is still good for 45-50km and nobody needs a 220mm 4 pot rear brake

[@scottpratico1315]

I ride a 55 lb enduro crusher and love it. Weight can be a benefit. Its grounded, stable, unstoppable. That suits me. If I want light I ride my acoustic.

[@sersolo3112]

my cube actionteam is heavy af i love it the weight great when descending

[@growlith6969]

That's where I'm at. Hard to beat a common Turbo Levo, 50lbs+, I kit it with cushcore and DH tires to make it bulletproof. It's a lot of weight but it's super stable, and compared to the youth sized moto bike I used to train with at 200lbs, it couldn't be easier to throw around.

[@jerryofthebikes]

Yes please! But no headset cable routing!

[@KarlMaldenarino]

I'd like to see a DJI range test with the motor tuned down to 85nm. I've heard it's more efficient than the Bosch and it would be interesting to get a rough idea of how much more efficient it is. I'm more interested in getting more range out of a smaller battery than having more power.

[@deanrwilson]

I'm not hearing amazing stories on the DJI battery range most likely because the motor generates too much power. A bit like riding a Bosch around all day on Turbo. Early days but I wouldn't say it's more efficient early testing scenarios show it uses around the same amount of power as the Bosch

[@rawmancemtb]

@@deanrwilson Yeah. This is the main problem that such a powerful bike came out. On Bosch I get 60km per 750Wh on full turbo. On Powerplay 50km on a 720Wh. And on a 800Wh battery the DJI on high will have maybe 45km range. If you are pushing and using the 1000 watts mode then it probably goes under 40km on a 800Wh battery. Powerplay was strong enough of a motor. But in practical terms the DJI is almost twice as powerful. On Bosch according to tests the sustained power is 550W. Powerplay probably has 650W of real sustained power. Small improvements to that would've been fine.

[@danielantonello4088]

​@@rawmancemtb 60km on turbo? Are you riding flat foot paths?

[@rawmancemtb]

@@danielantonello4088 It's for a normal trail ride. It's going to include some portion of gravel or road. But mostly trail. On average probably around 700m of vert. Restricted. Unrestricted is going to drop maybe 10km off that.

[@TschingisTube]

I own an amflow 800Wh, riding on trail mode which is like turbo on my old 85nm Giant trance you get 60km if only doing 700hm, or just 40km doing 1600hm even in those low temps right now. Height is eating into the range.

[@thierryjacques222]

I was on the Roc d'Azur and a distributor of the Forbidden brand told me that they had to release an eMTB with the DJI motor and that they had exclusivity. To talk about trends and weight without necessarily having a full power motor, I would like more choice in long travel bikes like the Mondraker dune XR, the YT Decoy SN..Crestline is really not bad either

[@hansjorgmoser1371]

The Amflow Carbon Pro smokes all current bikes above EUR 9999. Regarding battery capacity, every Wh is very welcome. The range in the high alps ( in Switzerland) shrinks often faster than many riders would like.

[@_rhapsodist]

just ride in a lower powered mode, job done

[@deanrwilson]

100% because the motor makes too much power and power drains the battery. A bit like driving a Bosch around all day long on Turbo. To get range the DJI riders will need to dial the power down by quite a way

[@rawmancemtb]

@@deanrwilson Bosch turbo is practically half the power of this bike. So no not at all like riding Bosch in turbo. Bosch turbo on a 750Wh gen4 range is 60km. This will have below 45km range on a 800Wh battery. Will probably go under 40km if you are pushing it and using the 1000W mode.

[@TschingisTube]

Reduce the power to trail on the amflow you still have capacity then you need it, the bike has the same range and it's still lighter than a Bosch 750Wh

[@rawmancemtb]

@@TschingisTube Range means using the highest assist mode on the bike on a normal trail ride.

[@davefreeman9347]

I was in my local Bike shop last week Rob trying the Amflow and one of the supervisors said to me next year we will see at least two biggish brands use the DJI system apparently pen to paper has already been signed by these brands 🤷‍♂️ big news if true.

[@stratostear]

They're pricing and minimums are amazing. The mid drive market is about to see a massive shake up.

[@TAZMON20]

Which begs the question, is it the bike or the motor that appeals as more power doesn't make for a better bike or rider.

[@thierryjacques222]

From a Forbidden distributor, they will release a bike with the DJI motor and the guy said to me they have the exclusivity for this motor..like Raymon with ZF

[@_rhapsodist]

@@thierryjacques222 its gotta be Specialized then, that would be a dream

[@davefreeman9347]

@@_rhapsodist don’t think so they don’t want this motor in USA as it’s Chinese

[@michaelk.5706]

I think the biggest misconceptions are the the big batteries. I think most riders go for 2 or max 3 hour ride and therefore smaller and lighter batteries are plenty for most cases. Check out the Wallis project s.

[@fathertime209]

ABSOLUTELY!!! And I'd love to see these bikes merge with a Kevlar belt drivetrain to increase reliability to make the perfect Steed for the trails up, down and all around...

[@thethelostjs]

Absolutely, however, they didnt give us the gearbox this time around. do you have a guess why? I think they dont want all that complexity. I bet Their group sat at a presentation including surron e-motos and specialized levos. they would've struggled a bit then decided they could easily meet in the middle somewhere. A brand new market! TLDR: I bet they will do a 2-5kw single speed EMTBicycle in a year or two once the SL fad settles out.

[@wrongusername]

When are you releasing the follow up to LightCarbon LCE930 video?

[@gregoryflinn3577]

High power, low weight, long assisted climbs - pick two.

[@NMBowhntr]

Amflow looks amazing, hope other manufacturers pick it up, too. That said, it’s not even close to why I personally mountainbike. An invisible hand giving me some gentle push on the hard climbs, making me feel more fit than I am, is the ticket for my wife and I’s style of riding. I just hope these speedy, powerful bikes don’t get all e-bikes banned on all trails. Here in Albuquerque they already have been banned on some trails for just this reason. So if you are buying one of these high power bikes, keep your environment and other trail users in mind, and SLOW DOWN WHEN THERE ARE OTHER USERS ON THE TRAIL. Please don’t be rude or dangerous, and save the high speeds for out in the remote areas, or dedicated bike parks. Or else the most powerful, lightweight bikes in history will be unridable for most areas, and none of us want that!

[@hgrenadegames]

DJI just made everyone else irrelevant. I honestly cant figure out why any of the major brands wouldn't just sell batteries in different sizes. You could easily have a 46lb Kenevo w/ a boxxer if it had a smaller battery. Or a 44lb full power Levo. Personally, I think they are missing a huge financial opportunity. Just sell us smaller batteries so that we can choose. Great video as usual!

[@thethelostjs]

batteries ARE a right to repair item. my motor requires only two wires from the battery ( + and - ) I agree, a solution with a warranty would be nice. However, I think many MFG have gotten complacent thanks to their loyal owners. I believe DJI's new motor is nothing but good for the industry and it should serve to give MFGs a successful example to follow. similar to the way (love or hate it) Tesla has done for the car industry

[@p199a]

Just remember, if you want more power from the electric motor you will need a stiffer chainstays, a heavier drivetrains, and suspension linkage has to be designed around it. This might decrease downhill performance and weight savings will be eaten up by beefier drive train and chainstays.

[@deanrwilson]

Rob a point that needs to be made is the DJI motor is only available in the Amflow so it's a limited market as it's a light weight trail bike. So DJI has thrown a spanner in the works but unless DJI decide to make the motor available as an OEM product it doesn't re define the market. If there were 3-4 brands using the DJI Motor yes it would re-define the market. A bit like the Dymane 4.0 scenario. Only available on the Rocky Mountain so it didn't re-define the market. The Amflow is selling like hot cakes and it is a choice but has it re-defined the market.? Example will Bosch make the Gen5 more powerful with a firmware update? Then it has re-defined the market IMO

[@deanrwilson]

If DJI have signed 3 very well known bike brands as up and coming DJI motor users then yes they have re-defined the market IMO

[@TschingisTube]

Or they simply do also an more high end Enduro 🤯

[@philmountain9290]

As you’ve said… it’s all well and good having high powered ‘light’ ebikes but to keep them light you need a smaller battery… then you don’t have the range. That obviously depends on where and how you ride. I’ve got a gen3 Levo which has more than enough power for what I need but I wish I could get a bigger battery.. the 700wh in it is now around 5 year old tech, I’m sure 900/1000wh must be possible now with no weight increase. Let’s hope more bikes catch on, think it’s only Canyon at the minute that offers a 900+ battery. I’m hoping for a gen4 Levo with a bigger and backwards compatible battery, because other than that I’d change nothing about my gen3.

[@grahamsmith9788]

I run a Trailwatts 252 extender on my Gen2 700Wh Levo. However, I think Trailwatts need to do the installation with Gen3 (somehow more complex) which could be a problem depending on where in the UK you live. I doubt very much the Gen4 battery will be backwards compatible.

[@philmountain9290]

@ I’ve seen the Trailwatts thing, I’d rather it be nicely integrated though. I’m hoping because the gen 3 battery was backwards compatible to gen 2 it might work again… If not it’ll be new bike time if it’s substantially bigger😆

[@CaviDS]

I still love my original Orbea Rise, I do not need any more power and if I did I would go for a new one..

[@KV89-b3c]

Makes two of us. 60nm is plenty if you have 70-80kg and you are fit.

[@Jkan2001]

@@KV89-b3ccan unlock the original to 85 as well

[@KV89-b3c]

​@@Jkan2001 Still in warranty. So no can do 🤣

[@Traktion1]

Agreed! I still have mine in the lower power profile too, which I think is about 45nm max. Plenty if you want a bit of a workout. I've only needed 60nm when I've towed my son up steep climbs! 😅

[@kyle618]

im so glad i didnt settle on a levo sl and went full power turbo levo. that 35nm or 50nm on the levo sl is too weak. i believe 75nm should be the minimum. but hey ill take 120nm all day long :) i can always turn it down and save on battery

[@growlith6969]

Yup, I like the weight, it's stable. I also like the ability to go for a ride, go get lunch, and then go for another ride without recharging or gassing out.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

@@kyle618 Turbo levos put out 90nm max. You probably spend most of your time at 50nm ish. All the torque on an electric motor is down low, once the cadence picks up the torque drops off pretty fast

[@kyle618]

@@JamesGoddardftw actually i also spent a good amount of time on 80% on steep stuff which gives me around 72nm of peak torque. i cant imagine having only 50nm max with a small batt as well.

[@tahoeebikes]

Every day is a day closer to the star wars pod racer ebikes

[@1DJTheMessenger]

highest possible power to lowest possible weight ratio was always going to be the goal

[@ADVtheMISSIONARY]

Small physical size, lightweight and lots of power is the dream and dare I say it the end goal

[@cpF01]

Hmm. I think smaller batteries are ok with respect to saving weight. Depends on how long are you riding. How much vert? I'm normally only out for 1.5 hr rides, maybe 400 /500 meters vert and using only 20% on my Orbea 560W battery... so why add all that weight to have a bigger battery? 🤔I guess if you were occasionally going out for a massive big ride having a bottle mounted battery would be a good option, but for regular rides, I want (1st) real world riding light weight, (2nd) power, (3) battery. IMHO

[@BentonL]

It seems like it would be a great bike if the battery was swappable. I hope they make one where I can swap batteries out. The main issue I have with some of the e bikes on the market is the batteries are not swappable. When I have time to ride I dont want to waste time waiting on a battery to charge. I hate Bosch but at least I can swap batteries. Another thing E bike makers should consider is a 12v charger that connects to the car.

[@deanrwilson]

To me the battery not being a swap out isn't a huge issue because it comes with a 12 amp charger so you can easily re-charge from 40% to 100% in an hour. But yes there are riders who want multiple batteries or removable for a host of reasons, charging in doors, all day racing etc etc. For me no biggie if I can do 1200m and 50-60kms I'm happy. My body wants a rest after that LOL

[@BentonL]

@@deanrwilson I am lucky to see more than 15 miles on a single charge. I ride turbo and flat out. Maxx assist and heart rate 160 to 185 the whole ride. What time I have is limited and I usually drove 2 hours or more to ride. I am looking to make it count. When you get at about 25% battery the assist are noticeably reduced. I usually swap to the second battery before I am done. I have a few 3 mile jump loops I just do over and over. I have them on my channel. I would like to see torque measured on a full vs nearly depleted battery.

[@davidenglish2003]

I want the lightest, most power, and largest capacity battery.

[@TeddyYang-b2w]

DJI then. Although not the lightest but blows the others out of the water in the two other categories

[@JohnChristopher-k7u]

It’s already possible to do a light weight full power build on something like a Trek Rail, with a 500wh battery. bringing nigh near to 20kg. The BIG change is not the motor but the battery as their energy to weight ratio has dramatically increased in recent times. One look at a 500wh range extender in 2024 is confirmation of that fact compared to a Bosch 500wh Powertube in 2019. Bikes are just gonna get lighter, stronger and more powerful all in a single package.

[@Paul_Sims]

This is starting to be a recurring theme on your channel - "SL ebikes are dead", SL ebikes are underpowered" etc etc. It's starting to get a bit stale TBH. Firstly, not everyone wants or needs a full power motor. And if you don't need all that power, why accept all the other downsides that come with a full power motor (size, weight, motor noise, rattles, etc)? Second - battery size and weight is directly linked to motor output. It's physics. Higher power motors will always need bigger batteries, bigger batteries weigh more. Therefore, until there is a massive change in battery tech which can give 600Wh batteries that weigh 2kg, there won't be any full power SL ebikes - SL in weight terms meaning roughly 18kg, not 20-21kg. Third, and probably most important (which you and most other reviews seem to miss) - an SL ebike is not just about weight. A proper SL ebike should give the rider an extra helping hand but shouldn't overwhelm the riding experience, it should be as close as possible to a std mtb, but when riding you feel fitter than you've ever been. Full power ebikes are still full power ebikes, no matter if they weigh 20kg or 25kg. They are not the same as a low power ebike than might only weight 1-2kg less, but which have a completely different ride feeling and experience. A proper SL ebike rides almost identically to a normal MTB. A full power ebike simply doesn't. A full power ebike doesn't suddenly turn into an SL ebike by shedding 4kg...

[@Paul_Sims]

Just to add - I think what DJI have done is brilliant, and I think within a year or 2, all full power emtb's will be 20-22kg. Gone will be the 25kg heffalumps of the past few years. But, there's still going to be a market for people who don't want an emtb. They just want an mtb than gives a bit of help at the end of a 1200m+ day, or when riding with fitter friends in a normal mtb group. These bikes aren't aimed at emtb'ers - they're aimed at normal mtb'ers who need a bit of assistance, for whatever reason (health, age, injury etc). Look at the TQ slogan for the HPR50, it sums it up perfectly - "Riding, but better".

[@afoolishman12]

But you can dial the power downs as much as you want on a full power. If it only weighs 1 kilo more what’s the point of sl? And you can often go with a smaller battery if you want which narrows the gap even more… Look at the giant trance x elite

[@RobRidesEMTB]

Great points Paul, thanks for sharing :-) Rob

[@Paul_Sims]

@@afoolishman12 Yeah you can do that but it doesn't change the physical characteristics of the motor. Things like the drag over the motor cut off, the extra weight of the battery (that's now dead weight as you're not using it), the design sacrifices made to fit the bigger motor (remember, bigger power means more heat and bigger electric motors inside) affecting suspension layout, the extra noise... Again, wight is only one part of the entire riding experience.

[@Paul_Sims]

@@RobRidesEMTB Thanks - sorry if it sounded a little ranty!! But so many reviews online, especially of the TQ system simply state "oh, it needs more power" - when it really doesn't. An extra 250w will take a low/average fitness rider with an ftp of about 2w/kg, to the level of an XC world champ with 5-6w/kg. That's a massive increase. Now, granted I've not ridden a TQ bike yet, but I have ridden a couple of full power bikes and a couple of Specialized 1.1 motor bikes. The FF bikes were fun, but I actually disliked them greatly. Especially when trying to ride up techy, slippery climbs. I needed to change my riding technique far too much for my liking, and the motor became the overwhelming part of the bike. The Levo/Lenevo SL bikes felt exactly what I would want from an ebike, no change in riding style from a regular mtb was required, and they 'enhanced' the ride, rather than dominated it. Lets face it, full power emtb'ing is a different sport to regular mtb'ing. Low power/SL ebikes are much, much closer to regular mtb'ing than emtb'ing.

[@_rhapsodist]

I hope seeing you with the DJI motor and battery in hand means there's a custom enduro bike build coming ahead 😉

[@andrewhicks9866]

Loved my 2021 Rise but the batter life was an issue on a 10,00ft day, moved to the Wild, so much more capable but missed the light weigh feel, the new Wild with the 600w battery is a good balance but you still get the battery issue as I imagine you might on the Amflow if you tried 10,00ft on a non uplift day at BPW. The next step will be a bike with the full fat and a changable battery, if the new Whyte could easily swap out the 400w battery that would be a fantastic bike but for me I need an all day electric bike(an no I dont ride full turbo everywhere but I do like a reasonable bit of assistance) Hopefully someone will take the DJI engine and 600w battery and build an enduro bike where you can swap the batttery out easily.

[@chip9832]

23 kilo full power ,very nice build .I think better value than an under powered thousands dollars more bike.imo. also I wonder if solid state battery can really be the turning point for these bikes . Your thoughts 😊

[@AliB-cf3bq]

LWs aren't dead if you want to get more exercise. I have a heckler with the ep8 motor and a Spesh levo turbo sl with a 1.2 motor - I get much more exercise on the SL.

[@philflip1963]

With Axial Flux Motors and higher gravimetric energy density batteries, the sub 15kg 1,000 Watt Full Suspension Ebike should soon be possible for under £1,500. (Possible Chinese import tariffs permitting). Even better for road use might be a sub 11kg Non-Suspension Bike with 2"+ tyres.

[@rudik5496]

Big fan of lightweight bikes. I’d say the big differentiators are 1/Battery size and density(not so much the built/Specs). And 2/ who you ride with: if all your mates have full fat, a Fazua, TQ, SX will be frustrating. If all your mates have SLs or Organic, a full fat will be frustrating…

[@masonthurman]

I'd still trade power for distance and weight. I'd be fine with 35-60w as long as it feels like an analog and can go the distance. I also ride with analog riders, so there's that

[@zorqis]

I'd rather have a lighter, efficient lower power motor from DJI or others to further reduce weight. Or detachable motors like the Bimotal solution. Ripping a 16 kg enduro bike is quite different from 22-23 kg. But for trail bikes and alpine terrain, no better than DJI and its yet missing extender 😊.

[@Emolokz]

Amflow need to drop a 170/170 or 180/180 and they'll get a ton of sales.

[@Trainnotstrain]

Was that the view from Pitch Hill, Surrey at 6mins

[@EdBraunbeck]

I'm fine with 60 Nm (Fazua or Bosch) and would like to see the overall weight closer to 35 lbs.

[@BrianJ-t1u]

The Turbo levo gen 3 S works full power can do everything with a 700 battery is only 21.5 kg so that was really the start of full power light weight ok yes its a very expensive bike but a Dicky bird told me Specialized's new Turbo levo is due out early next year so i wonder what motor is going to be in it as the new Brose motor is only 5nm more so its not that more impressive than the old model so might they jump ship to a new motor manufacture he wouldn't say no more than its defiantly going to be worth the wait ,

[@hedjmb2]

I've enjoyed my Levo SL for years, more than enough power. I would be more interested if the manufacturers concentrated on better range low powered bikes.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

This requires huge advancement in battery tech and that brings its own problems esp’ in our world. Kelly’s and DJI both have some good stuff going on with their units but they wont share it. Lithium ion batteries are only going to go so far and we’ve almost hit that point. Solid state batteries are the future but its doubtful they will solve the cost and scaleability issues for a couple generations (of people not bikes)

[@GRANTROBERTPETERS]

When the batteries are able to be split down meaning a 800whr battery could be used as a 400 or 600 or 800 by taking out connected sections and putting in spacers into their place e bikes will literally take over. To have a full power able to choose how much of the battery you use that came with the bike for a given ride use it’s game over.

[@GRANTROBERTPETERS]

Full power DJI system on an enduro with splittable battery and I’ll be in.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

User configurable batteries aint gunna happen. Selling people £1000 sealed units is better for business. Also YOU may be a competent mechanic but giving genpop the ability to open up and mess with high output battery packs is going to end badly

[@GRANTROBERTPETERS]

@@JamesGoddardftw I meant as a sealed unit but can split into a couple of sections - in no way meant taking out individual cells.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

@@GRANTROBERTPETERS yes i understood. Im imagining a single (water) sealed unit that you could pop open and add a cell pack or packs to wired in series. Could a current single BMS cope with that? Im not sure. Could they build a multi mode BMS? Yeah, but you just know some moron would try and daisy chain a dozen of them together for likes.

[@martinlewis1015]

I'll stick with my FREY EX it has a 1k motor and can cope with hills in Sussex and not over heat like all the others. I have had now for several years and no problems

[@bushjam1]

I think the next e-bike phase will have us choosing between a heavy gearbox bike or a light full power bike. Low power will be phased out.

[@thethelostjs]

lets hope so! we will refer to it as the dark ages lol

[@scotconstine4238]

How about the LCE930? Checks all the boxes? Still waiting on that ride review?

[@NeilAshton-n3r]

What’s happening with shimano? No new bikes with it? Any news?

[@JamesGoddardftw]

SL bikes are rather specific in their capabilities as mentioned the high power amflow isnt going to be a great enduro machine even though it has enough poke. A full fat alloy e bike on the other hand goes up down and round and round anything you want. The weights only a problem when its static throw some momentum into the mix and they are perfectly nimble down hills maybe with a few tweeks to your style When the motors throwing out torque on the ups they are just as nimble as regular mtbs

[@philiphawkins4684]

Have your "Cake and eat it", no mention if the ZF motor, how does this compare on weight?

[@ManuelCaiti]

Nice video! How much does the new rise lt weight with 630w battery, coil shox and proper tyre? Is it lighter than the amflow?

[@LEGENDofBEANY]

Can the DJI motor fit in a specified Levo SL frame?

[@_rhapsodist]

or even better: in a Kenevo SL? that would be the dream combo for me!

[@LEGENDofBEANY]

@ right?! Would be so cool!

[@worldstallestmidget]

That’s what I have been saying since I bought my first e bike in 2018! Lightweight full power and big watts! I get not everyone wants a big heavy bike. And a light weight e bike gives a little bit of a push enough to put smiles on people’s faces! Is sl bike market dead? No! Just another way to ride imo.

[@bionic909]

I think Specialized kick started e-bikes period.

[@thim8009]

I wish they would come out with 400 watt batteries that you can double up or run one alone or with a dummy battery that has storage in it. A step further would be having a holder for one that you can put in a bottle cage for storage. That would be the best of all worlds there. The batteries would be small enough to fit in a hippack. Just think if a company could make afermarket batteries for, say a levo.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

So like an SL with a range extender Yeah i wonder why thats never been done Oh wait…..

[@thim8009]

@JamesGoddardftw sl sucks. Talking full power. Try to keep up genius.

[@JamesGoddardftw]

@@thim8009 if your putting out 90nm peaking at 500w how long is your small capacity battery gunna last einstein? And also WHY?

[@bozweiser]

Any hands on the 2025 Cube stereo hybrid one77 yet?

[@mycyclingdisorder]

I took an Amflow out for a couple of rides. Eco mode was rather rubbish regardless of settings I twiddled and Trail mode was ridiculous. It is like it needs an extra mode in between. Eco was weak to the point where I wondered if the motor has an inherent weakness at the low need. Also, battery capacity went quicker than I thought 800wh should so may not give a long ride without anxiety.

[@TschingisTube]

Between Eco and trail is auto even if it is not sorted that way as the first mode after off is auto.

[@mycyclingdisorder]

That’s not a between setting. That’s a different creature as it switches across all modes. I didn’t try it so cant say if it is better or not.

[@SLug9]

They'll always be a trade off IMO. Personally think reliability of the ebb and how it decends is not spoke about enough. Always seems to be about power and weight never about how they actually ride. I have specialized SL bikes and love how they climb but most importantly how they go downhill. Seems folk are more interested in how they go uphill surely that's backwards thinking 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@tomwhicker7951]

I actually disagree - I got into ebikes this year and after testing a couple bikes went for a cannondale moterra sl. Great bike, but for some reason I just didnt quite get on with it. It is a lightweight full power bike at an impressive weight and amazing power and range, but I just missed the ride quality from the lighter ebikes i had tried. I demoed a fuel exe and had a much better time. Very quiet, and rides exactly like my acoustic bikes. Range isnt great but ill take that for the ride quality. I actually thought 85 nm was a bit too much power for me as well, Id say 60 is perfect. The dji is in a league of its own though for sure

[@drill_fiend1097]

Is 1000w still considered as "class-1 ebike" which most bike parks use as limit guideline?

[@pjewk]

Still waiting for what the next gen Levo Turbo motor spec bikes… guess the price may be too high even for alloy models. Amflow still no1 on my list!

[@franciscocardoso7882]

So, the amflow is like a light trail bike with a huge enduro ebike motor, a new category of its own, the unicorn ebike?

[@gattoflyer]

They should have ALWAYS been full power and lightweight 😤

[@link6032]

Why does more power make the Amflow better ???, does anyone need more than 85nm ??

[@afoolishman12]

Because you can always turn the power down to conserve battery and get less boost but still have the option of getting more power. Why not have the option?

[@link6032]

@afoolishman12 but that's not the point he is making. The thing that sets the motor apart is the absolute power, watch any of robs videos and he rides all the time in boost. All motors have the same 15mph limit, so as long as it gets you to that then what's the rest for, and this power will destroy chains and sprockets for breakfast

[@afoolishman12]

@@link6032 I always ride in level 1 or 2 so I don't need the full power but why not have it in case you do need it some day? And if you want a big battery the weight of the motor is meaningless.

[@link6032]

@@afoolishman12 I don't disagree, I also ride all day in eco or trail, never used emtb or boost, however my point is that Rob is saying more power is always better, and unless you are so unfit or heavy that you can't get to 15mph with 85nm then having 1000 is just going to wear your drivetrain to dust in hours 🤣

[@JohnSmith-sj2dk]

I need to commute to my ride areas ?and work), so I will derestrict my Amflow for a top soeed around 52 klm/hr, battery size and power will help with that need.

[@castortoutnu]

Does light weight mean low power or light weight ? I believe light weight means light weight.

[@phillevin6651]

Whatever happened to the lightcarbon 930 with bafang m820?

[@FelixLux-jl8cb]

I think energy density will double in the next 5 years and therefore weight of batteries will come down substantially. Also motors will become more efficient (how much more no clue) and a bit lighter. Therefore we should easily loose about 2kg in battery + motor weight within 5 years, keeping power and range the same (of current level full power bikes, so say 600-800wh batteries and about 85-100nm). At that point it doesn't really make sense to get a low powered "light EMTB" anymore, unless you really just want that light assist and dislike more power. Also at least for the EU market I think we will soon see the power of motors plateau, because with that 25km/h cap law, much more power than current full power bikes would become increasingly useless. I mean as a fit rider with that Amflow on boost you would hit 20-25km/h on mellow climbs already, or am I wrong?

[@Rubblechops]

But how long will you ride last with a monster motor and a small battery? Think some people may be disappointed when they rinse it in 30 minutes.

[@rouxenophobe]

...meanwhile in the UK we are stuck at 250 watts and 15mph 😭

[@davehunt6998]

Hi Rob your doing a great job. I would just like to ask if this bike is UK legal as its 1000watts i thought pedlec were restricted to 250watts UK EPAC Law it would be great if you could explain this on your next podcast.

[@doctorjules187]

what bike/battery now with a 700Wh+ capacity has the highest energy density?

[@mtbsteve]

try the markhor kunlun bafang 560 motor it wipe the floor with dji amflow

[@thethelostjs]

I guess bafang hasn't greased enough palms to get any reviews :( Rob buddy we know you are in england but you gotta show us the goods. maybe time for holiday in a friendlier ebike country!

[@mtbsteve]

I’m in England and would lend rob my markhor kunlun also got a spare frame if he wants to make up

[@thethelostjs]

@@mtbsteve Well i'll thumbs up to that! have you got 500 or 750w? and can you comment any further on how it feels? is it100% more power than bosch etc?

[@davidloucks9149]

The DJI is only available in limited countries and limited quantities. You shouldn't be pumping it so hard until it is a real product. It may not be available in North America for a long time. What about talking about the brands that are available now.

[@Chris-im4ps]

hoped you‘d say the trend is they be getting cheaper

[@robrider838]

Yep. Who will be the first to put the Amflow battery into their enduro bike? YT?

[@lilvegasbasc-se7en-0-duece67]

Would love to have a FS EMTB buuutt as a big guy, I've found that I have to pay significantly more to get a bike that can hold my weight. Which is sad because they are a great way to get some good cardio exercise in while also exploring and having a good time, instead of being stuck in a gym surrounded by sweaty dudes and chicks making Tiky-Toky's 😭

[@bertfranqui7096]

Building my Amflow basic grey with 800w and are getting close to 18kg hihi

[@kalzadani5046]

How can to by and where

[@johngreason9964]

Right. Low powered EMTB'S really do escape logic. If one bike has a full power unit, which one can select how much power, the other a low power unit, yet they weigh nearly the same. The low power bike is literally irrelevant. Adding to this, the low power can just barely out climb a biobike. Now, top it off with a higher. Much higher price tag. Lightweight EMTBs are a luntics delicacy. Personally, I perfer the unapologetic weight, sound, full power, big battery, and heavily built machine. EMTB. In the few years, I believe low power motors will fall into there of classification and rider group. Ultralight. XC focused bike. All others will be full power with a stacking modular battery. 400, 800, and 1000. With the 250w range extender to fill the gaps. This will give options we've never seen. To literally tune into how much weight and power we need for a given ride/terrain/objective.

[@Paul_Sims]

Nonsense. First, a like for like full power and low power emtb will NEVER weigh the same, because a 600w motor needs a bigger battery than a 300w motor, and batteries are where the majority of the weight is. TQ batteries weigh 1.8kg for the 360Wh and 2.7Kg for the 580Wh, that's an extra kg for a small 'full power' battery size, then you've got the extra motor weight etc. Second, "low power can just barely out climb a biobike" is utter, utter rubbish. Guess what happens if you output 500w on a climb vs outputting 250w, at the same weight, plus 4kg? You climb faster. A 3km, 500m climb on tarmac would take 33 minutes at 250w, and just under 18 minutes at 500w with an extra 4kg. That's 15 minutes faster, on a 33 minute climb. EMBN's Steve did a test like this, Trek Fuel EX vs EXE vs full power 85nm motor on a short techy climb. Analog bike was 17-18 minutes, TQ 50nm 300w bike was 7 minutes faster, and the full power ebike was 3 minutes faster than the low power bike. So, 7-8 minutes faster than an analogue bike on a 18 minute climb. Again, about 40% or so faster than a non ebike. Just because you can't (or don't want to) see past your 'POWERRRR' full fat ebike, doesn't mean they're useless, they're just not for you.

[@johngreason9964]

@Paul_Sims I see your case. However. The Fuel EXe weight is 19.3KG. May as well compare to like to like, the DJI Amflow. The DJI weight is 20.3 kg. 1 KG difference in total. Literally 200% more power. I'd also suspect much more range as well if one was to ride the Avinox on the lowest power setting, like wise to the low power bike. All this for the weight of 32oz water bottle. Not to mention, I believe the DJI is less $. With much more tech to offer. My words about biobike vs. lightweight climbing ability was perhaps unclear. That's ok. I meant steepness. Grade. Grade with tech. Even better. No. A lightweight EMTB can't match a full power on very steep climbs. Which, to me, is a core reason for the existence of the EMTB in the first place. Now, very fit, skilled bio rider, I fully believe can climb whatever grade a low power emtb could. A test with Rich from GMBN would be really good useful content? So. Here we are. It's not that I can see past full power. I'm just blinded by fact and logic that still stand. Low power lightweight bikes are irrelevant beyond an ultralight, sub 15kg, 120mm downcountry bikes. That is where I believe low power motors and small batteries belong. I also believe this downcountry/XC inspired low power EMTB needs to be a segment/bike type of its own.

[@Paul_Sims]

@@johngreason9964 If you're blinded by fact and logic then please at least get your facts right. The DJI battery and motor weight is 5.4kg with a 600Wh battery. TQ battery and motor with a 390Wh battery is 3.7kg. So, that's 1.7kg heavier. Anything else is down to the bike build. And you said that low power emtb's are no faster uphill than a 'bio' bike. A 50nm, 300w ebike will ALWAYS be faster (by a large margin) than a non emtb, regardless of the climb. It's basic physics. The more watts or power you can put down, the faster you climb. An emtb gives you an instant 250w or more watts at the press of a button. It doesn't matter what the climb is... Give any rider the ability to put out an extra 250w over their normal power and they will climb faster. Doesn't matter they can manage 100w or 600w. That extra 250w makes a difference. At the end of the day, a low power emtb gives the rider the ability to either ride a climb 40% faster than they would on a bio bike, or ride at the same speed but with 40% less effort, all with basically zero downsides over a bio bike. How that makes them irrelevant, I'm not sure. Now, yes - a full power on eco mode does the same thing, but you're still carrying around extra weight you don't need, and have extra noise/size etc of the motor to live with. And for anyone that doesn't want or need the extra power, there's better options out there. It's like buying a Bugatti veyron and never driving above 40mph.

[@55mblindy]

Get a HPC enduro bike🎉

[@Tumid1]

They're now available with a 2000watt Bafang M560.....1000w lol

[@nickwooden2103]

Didn’t giant do full power light weight first?

[@mgbroadsterJ]

Is the Government raising the power out put?

[@TAZMON20]

There's just too much marketing bullshit behind this drive of lighter is greater etc, they have their place but personally I don’t want a bike where I have to charge the main battery and a range extender just incase, the industry is in a state of continuous decline and further confuse the end user of what to buy coukd ultimately turn people away from an enjoyable hobby / sport.

[@thethelostjs]

don't worry in 2 years we will be looking at 2.5kw ebikes. The Amish bikers will be at home with the grandkids :)

[@adnanmajeed6916]

Greta motor can’t wait for it to arrive on other brands, the amflow just looks meh and is carbon only.

[@InternetExplorer-s9g]

powerful ebikes require proper drivetrains , 1000W middrive motor will chew up lightweight chains and cassetes like there is no tomorrow

[@link6032]

all these reviews of the 'lighter' emtbs are really missing the point, they are all reviewed by people who want to ride up the hills with min effort, with the most power and come back down the trails, essentially an uplift on tap. However why don't they review from the perspective of someone who rides trails or cross country, who likes the fitness aspect but wants that bit of extra power when needed and wants the conventional bike feeling. The reviews are always from the perspective of a downhill or jump/trail rider who's bike was already heavy and don't want to pedal up the hills. These lighter bikes are not for that or that type of rider. He needs to either think from a XC rider perspective or get someone else to comment for him - feels like a missed review opportunity.

[@jannegarvik7023]

What is a light weight bike? Have not seen any diagram or nothing, so it is all up to what you think!!

[@kinaceman]

order of magnitude is x10! not x2

[@Stockfish1511]

I always thought sl bikes were pointless. I mean you either go ebike or manual. Wtf is the inbetween. Full powered bikes still perform good on downhill

[@JamesGoddardftw]

Sometimes i wish i got an SL the full fatties are sometimes too easy Then i point it down a hill and stop having stupid thoughts 😅

[@metalTriumph]

My Amflow is so good. The DJI motor wipes the floor with Bosch and Shimano. All other full and low power e-Mtbs are dead. All hail our Chinese drone overlords!

[@gravelDave]

Weigh with pedals, any pedals. You cant ride a bike without pedals.😂

[@nigelrandtoul8646]

Value for money is skewed with sl mid power bikes, they are no cheaper than full power bikes and they need to be to compete

[@Juraj_H.]

were they ever alive?

[@OOOnanana]

theres really only one full power light weight in the market. Stop with the click bait

[@eugenux]

hopefully!, the regular full powered bikes are horrible; yes, I climb very fast but they are horrible on the way down; they suck the joy out of mtb-ing(they don't brake and don't turn properly!)

[@Johnny6ex]

Duh i want my biciclet fast 50km plus and strong altho i dont like them light id rather have bit heavier bike

[@echidna1263]

Its all for nought unless you are Grehound thin yourself. Its just all rubbish I have Norco Range Vlt custom build 85nm but I weigh 67kg . Bike is an absolute missile, up and down hill. Now put a 100kg rider on the same bike and ask him.

[@tonywilliams8416]

Sure but you can’t have your cake and eat it because you just can’t get away from physics. More power and you just need a bigger battery to feed that motor. And then you get fat because you are not doing any work and back to the bigger battery problem 😆

[@streddaz]

What you do have to remember with all this power, is you still have a drivetrain that is designed for leg only output, and the more power you put through it the shorter the life of the drivetrain. Normal full powered Ebikes already eat chains and cassettes, let along having 1000w getting punted at it. I have a 2020 Levo SL Gen 1 with over 13,500km on it. It's a great bike, reliable, the chains last pretty much the same as it does on my meat powered bike, and I have all the power I need for single track. Sure, more power for the same weight would be great, but it comes at a cost that's more than just the ticket price and it's an ongoing expense.

[@thethelostjs]

the future is now! smimano cues groupsets only 100 dollars! and heres a big secret. Powerful e bikes don't need more than 8speeds the torque available can more than cover the bigger gaps in such a cassette!

[@streddaz]

@ it is a better option than the rest, but it’s still not designed for 1000w of power. If you are going to those power extremes a MGU is the way to go. Still I don’t think the power is warranted. Just get a dirt bike.

[@thethelostjs]

@@streddaz sir the existence of dirtbikes illustrates perfectly that the power is indeed warranted. in fact they have all sorts of power levels and the strength of the chain and sprockets is engineered to be reliable. now in 2024 and beyond as bike parts become better and better and elec motors and batteries get better and better. there will be a beautiful crossing over of industries. you can all help by not being negative nancies! and advocating for trails and access!

[@streddaz]

@ you are not going to get access to trails with bikes with the power of dirt bikes. Once you have enough power to easily spin the wheels and achieve speeds well over what a normal bike can do the MTB trails just won’t handle it and the push back from the anti-MTB groups will lock everyone out of a lot of places. A pedal assist bike should be just that, an assistance your own pedalling. Dirt bikes whether they are ICE powered or electric are a totally different thing and should stay separate from Pedal Assisted Ebikes and regular bikes. It can’t be just a free for all.

[@thethelostjs]

​@@streddaz why not? Even 30-40yr ago we had more access with way more noise and horsepower. MTB didnt even exist. I agree that a dirtbike doesn't belong on MTB or hiking trails and times are a-changing. But, it isn't completely absurd to expect a 2.5kw 65lb bike with modern features like traction control to blend in. maybe it can be single speed, rpm limited to between 20-30 mph. you cant tell me that MTB trails cant handle a bike like that. I know i'd buy one :)

[@christianpayne8990]

So does that leave the big unanswered question whether the riding experience on the Amflow is close enough to the natural feel of the TQ and Fazua equipped bikes to mean there is very little reason to prefer the older motors over the DJI?

[@rawmancemtb]

Natural feel means lazy power production it's not a good thing. Sounds great but in practical terms it means you are far less able to ride technical trails with that motor than something that has instant power like Bosch gen4.

[@christianpayne8990]

@ I'm talking about handling rather than power delivery and drive.