Are Lutherans and Anglicans the Same?

[@steveempire4625]

Wow, Joshua truly destroyed the commentator piece by piece but with the highest degree of Christian charity and respect.

[@_Palesa_M]

I like that about him 😂

[@rmoss42]

Dude dispatches deluded dissenters deftly, dispassionately, and in-depth, like a Vulcan 🖖

[@shirtless6934]

You have to get up awfully early in the morning to beat Joshua's research skills that is one thing I really enjoy about his videos the thoroughness of his research and presentation

[@AF-tv6uf]

He didn't even crack a smile or use a snide tone in any of the presentation. Just allowed the facts to speak for him. That's pure, distilled scholarship.

[@loriloristuff]

I wholeheartedly concur! Bravo, Joshua.

[@vogerbits2204]

Joshua, you're something else. This is the classiest video response I've seen to a snarky comment in a long time. You must be a fantastic professor.

[@kjorlaug1]

Never insult someone who knows a sh*t ton more about a topic than you do. That's the lesson from this video 😂

[@williamgunderson7365]

If you ask me a lot of people on the internet still need to learn that lesson 😅

[@fashionkiller5052]

Absolutely- how embarrassing

[@josephnelson9739]

As an English member of the Lutheran Church in Great Britain we certainly are not the same as the church to England… we work together but there are still many theological differences

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

I'm an American member of the Anglican Church and being told I was "well acktuallied" as a Lutheran really made me feel dumbfounded. When I'm not Lutheran. And infact Anglicanism is a via-media denomination between Catholicism and Reformed theology. Though we are neither reform and we are not Catholic either. Upper case Catholic I mean not lower case catholic.

[@josephnelson9739]

I’m not entirely sure what your comment has to do with mine given I made no such claim in my comment… all I am saying is that as a Lutheran, who is in the UK, we are not the same as the Church of England even if we are very close and work together

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

@@josephnelson9739 i didn't say what you think. I mean yea I had the same reaction as you did to the video. I'm pretty much saying "I'm with you bro" but reverse

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

@@josephnelson9739 sorry if you misunderstood me or if I didn't speak clearly

[@AnglicanFish]

The difference between Anglican and Lutheran beliefs is that Anglicanism has more different beliefs within itself than it does without itself Anglicanism is hard to understand but don’t worry Anglicans don’t understand either

[@pipsheppard6747]

As an Anglican, I can confirm that last statement!

[@BoondockBrony]

@@pipsheppard6747 And even in the more conservative branches of Anglicanism, it's a big tent church regardless on how theological conservative they are. For example Young Anglican, a KZbinr on here doesn't use the filioque in his recitation of the Nicene Creed so he's more Eastern than Western Christianity in that regard.

[@nathaniellathy6559]

One Lutheran minister said Anglicans have more 💰 😂

[@JohnMinehan-lx9ts]

Anglicans (and the Orthodox Churches) are bigger on worshipping than trying to understand what G-d has said are Mysteries. Catholics and Lutherans believe that trying to understand these Mysteries is part of worship (even if it is impossible).

[@MarcillaSmith]

Lutherans are separated from full communion with the Holy See by heresy, whereas Anglicans are separated by schism only.

[@memesofconcord1]

No way! Dr. Jordan B. Cooper made it into a Ready to Harvest video! This makes me very happy! 😆

[@Psychoveliatonet]

Opening with that comment was gold 😂 God bless

[@-vz-]

wow the "EDIT: you're American" comment got me laughing so hard

[@1258-Eckhart]

Why? He is.

[@sameash3153]

​@1258-Eckhart Because the commenter intended to be patronizing with that statement, and it was read with grace and charitability.

[@1258-Eckhart]

@@sameash3153 How do you know? From which part of the statement are you deriving your interpretation? Turn it through 180° and you add to me in a comment "Oh, your German". I would simply think: "yep, true".

[@sameash3153]

@@1258-Eckhart You are ignoring the eye roll emoji and the accusation that he doesn't understand a subject that his channel revolves around. Those are what make the statement patronizing.

[@1258-Eckhart]

@@sameash3153 On the eye-roll emoji - ok, fair comment, I unfortunately can''t see them properly even with spectacles (and didn't hear Joshua's reading of it). On "not understanding" - disagree, that goes too far. The challenge was "incomplete review, what about Europe?". Joshua has a fantastic understanding of denominational Christianity - possibly unrivalled in the world - and I'm very sure the commentator was not questioning this.

[@lawpreacher2000]

As a person who has been Lutheran, I have to fight the urge to feel hurt and betrayed by someone who Thinks that Lutheranism and Anglicanism is the same.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

It's kind of funny, since the founders of these churches weren't exactly friends. Henry VIII received the title of Defender of the Faith from the Pope after writing a book refuting Luther's beliefs and even after his break with Rome, he was still suspicious of Lutherans or any other Protestants who went too far in his eyes. One time he burned at the stake equally 3 Lutherans and 3 Catholics... just to be fair and hate everyone equally.

[@jhoughjr1]

Well they are European, how in touch can they be?

[@blynkers1411]

@@jhoughjr1 XD

[@minui8758]

@@jhoughjr1screw you. We gave you these denominations in the first place. Plus we don’t suffer the illusion that we are the best country in the world like many of your silly countrymen

[@danielkulju9836]

As an Anglican, I feel the same!

[@jatar6605]

As someone living in Ithaca, NY, that has gone to the same church as Jordan B Cooper, and has debated him back and forth on the exact issue of Lutheranism vs Anglicanism, it brings me immense joy to see him being referenced in this video

[@borisvandruff7532]

#IthacaIsGorges Also Jordan Cooper is awesome.

[@memeboi6017]

Wow that’s awesome!

[@ro6ti]

Cream rises to the top. Joshua and Dr. Cooper are two of my favorites.

[@Luredreier]

​@@ro6tiJordan B Cooper?

[@ro6ti]

@@Luredreier Dr. Jordan B. Cooper, if you really needed it spelled out.

[@TimC1517]

Great to see Dr. Cooper shouted out in this video! His channel is an excellent resource for Confessional Lutheranism and philosophy more generally

[@litigioussociety4249]

I think it's a reality of any denomination that progressive churches or individuals are more similar to each other. By definition, a progressive church abandons or does not strictly hold to their traditional teachings, which is the very thing that separates denominations. Your video on the variations of Amish and Mennonites illustrated this quite clearly with the most progressive essentially not really having anything in common with the most conservative Amish.

[@gamerofedge8111]

Having gone to Anglican, United, Mennonite, Pentecostal, Baptist, Catholic and NonDenom churches(And having a lot of friends who go to a local ELCIC church), it's not an abandoning of traditional teachings that separates denominations, it's that no one can agree on what the traditional teachings are, and most have an intolerance for people who do not believe exactly what the majority believes. Also, my family is Mennonite, I've seen progressive mennonites wear prayer veils and conservative ones deny doctrines of Pacifism or even basic things like the Trinity, this man's channel aims to teach Church traditions as it is written in creeds and on paper, not how it is actually seen in real life.

[@litigioussociety4249]

@@gamerofedge8111 I think your use of the term traditional is not synonymous with orthodox as I am using it. That means the beliefs of the early church. Those churches that adopt views that are new are considered progressive or liberal. It often starts with allowing women pastors, or no longer using some long held confession.

[@gamerofedge8111]

@@litigioussociety4249 Except the early church had women in leadership positions, and even the early church was not unified in their beliefs, there were Jewish Christians, the Gnostic Christians and plenty of diversity between Scriptures as well, such as the scrolls discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the only reason none of this is in the Church today is due to people ALTERING Church teachings and picking and choosing what we should and should not include, and if you think people didn't have biases that resulted in Pauline/Nicene Christianity becoming the dominant form I would highly suggest looking into the Early Church and the political climate at the time of it's inception.

[@litigioussociety4249]

@@gamerofedge8111 Just because heresies were preached and practiced in the early church doesn't make them any more valid in accordance with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. The heresies died out after the ecumenical councils filtered out the more radical beliefs. Oriental Orthodox was the onlt large difference until The Great Schism that caused Eastern Orthodox to split from Rome. The purpose of the gatherings was to determine mostly what was agreed upon, and a little bit what was not tolerable. The intolerance of heresies and heterodoxy really came to light with The Reformation, which is why even the Catholics had some reforming of themselves. Women occasionally ministering the Word in the New Testament is no foundation for the egalitarian view pushed by many today. The scriptures clearly teach a complimentarian view of sex in the church.

[@OlviMasta77]

Finnish viewer here. Loved hearing you talk about lutheranism and the nordic region! Porvoo is pronouced differently to what you said. The O vowel is pronouced the same throughout the word. And it sounds like the swedish Å vowel. Hard to explain. Anyways, Keep up the good work, Josh! Love your videos!

[@michaelseay9783]

So is it pronounced Poor-Vah ?

[@Anastas1786]

@@michaelseay9783 Por-voh.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

The Å is what in America is the "Long O"; bow, sew, row, tow or toe.

[@TurtleMarcus]

The only difference between "O" and "OO", is that "OO" is longer (that why there are two of 'em).

[@OlviMasta77]

"Porrrr-voh" is the closest I could think of writing. But if americans say "Porr-voe" we'd understand what place they are referring to. @@Anastas1786

[@christianwalton7080]

Our guy really made another whole video respectfully destroying silly comments piece by piece lol

[@yourneighborkevin]

Of all the KZbin channels about literally ANYTHING EVER, why would you pick the best researched, most information dense, most comprehensively detailed, and the bloody driest channel to leave a half-baked, presumptuous, sanctimonious comment on a video? I mean, this was a really amazingly put together dissection of ecumenical efforts among Lutherans and Anglicans. It’s imminently useful and easy to follow. Imagine having inspired that level of retort from someone, one that will be useful to other people for years to come. One that student will reference. Yeesh. And “driest” is not even a complaint, by the way. The main reason I subbed was because I detected no BS and I became convinced none would surface.

[@dest1239]

All I know is Jesus isn't divided up, instead the picture of wholeness. Great channel you have here, keep up the good content.

[@fatherstevek]

Well said, brother! BTW - I'm an Anglican priest in the orthodox ACNA, serving as a Pastor in an orthodox Lutheran church in the NALC. Similar to other ecumenical agreements around the world; the ACNA and the NALC are in communion with each other and are (obviously) open to sharing ordained ministers. Keep up the good and charitable work!

[@toranshaw4029]

Indeed. While there may appear, to the outsider, to be many similarities between the two traditions, there is quite a difference between them.

[@Michael29040]

Wanted to add the ELCA entered full communion with the Anglican Church of Canada last year and at the same time the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada entered full communion with The Episcopal Church.

[@AnglicanFish]

They’re also in full communion with the United Methodist Church and United Church of Christ. So yeah they are the same. They’re all just liberal progressive heretics.

[@mercster]

The trend amongst liberal denominations, especially in some pockets, is to merge closer together (made almost necessary by both dwindling member rolls and external social pressures these denominations value, for some reason), evident when two churches with quite different histories, like this, merge. As they value "broad strokes" and societal issues more than doctrinal ones, it makes sense for them to put aside past divergences... who cares, none of it really matters all that much, right? But for this commentor to both a) ascribe great importance to events in the last 30 years, in denominations in a limited geographical area with rapidly dwindling religious adherence, and then b) roll their eyes at you dismissively for being "American", is ridiculous. This person is apparently so far up their own rear end, they think their tiny little experience is all that matters, both historically and geographically.

[@intelligencehistory6506]

Earliest I've been, always love your videos man, they're like little academic lectures in the span of ten minutes or less

[@jhendric98]

No other video on this network has ever better shown the difference between a researched and balanced argument; and a social media backhanded slight.

[@realDonaldMcElvy]

As an Episcopalian, I can assure you that the Full Communion we have with the ELCA is not a Full Confusion of our heritage.

[@ro6ti]

Most ecumenism is just creative redefining of terms to be able to shake hands for a photo.

[@graysonmyers3137]

Exactly! Anglo catholic Episcopalian here… many of the Episcopalians I know weren’t very thrilled when the Episcopal church made the full communion with the ELCA… some were quite against it. Some were even angry. A common complaint I heard was that “ELCA doesn’t have apostolic succession and is very much off the deep end liberal.” Many outside of the church think we share the same theology because we both accept women’s ordination and gay marriage but that is certainly *not* the case. Episcopalians in America about 90% of the time have a much higher view of the sacraments and liturgy than the ELCA does. And when it comes to more “minor” things like the method of communion and the elements, there are many Episcopalians who find using plastic cups for the wine/blood of Christ sacrilegious.

[@FarmerBill-cl4rb]

I'm a conservative ELCA member, honestly my congregation is closer to the LCMS, I'm not thrilled with the Episcopalians myself

[@mj6493]

@@graysonmyers3137 As a member of the ELCA, I'm fine with the full communion arrangement with the Episcopal Church. Many in the ELCA were not though. They felt that requiring ordination at the hands of a bishop was unnecessarily restrictive. On that issue, we lost quite a few congregations to what is now the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ. They were mostly Pietistic-oriented congregations of Norwegian heritage who were never comfortable with the idea of bishops to begin with. Yes, we are off the deep end liberal (God help us!), but so is the Episcopal Church, so we are a good match on that. Regarding the episcopate, the ELCA adopted apostolic succession at the hands of other Lutheran bishops who were already is apostolic succession as a condition of full communion with the Episcopal Church. So, all ELCA bishops are in apostolic succession. I'm not sure what that's worth though. Neither Rome, nor the East recognize our bishops, so it's mostly just between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church. I'd have to disagree with you on Episcopalians having a higher view of sacraments and liturgy, especially on the sacraments ordained of Christ. From the Augsburg Confession: Article IX. Of Baptism Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism, are received into God’s grace. Article X. Of the Lord’s Supper Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed to those who eat the Supper of the Lord. Short of accepting the Roman doctrine of Transubstantiation, which the Anglican 39 Articles calls repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, I'm unclear how much higher a church could go on Holy Communion. The only time I've ever received communion in plastic cups was during COVID. I suspect protesters on that point have a very limited or localized experience in the Lutheran Church. It's not served that way around where I live.

[@DeFyYing]

​​@@graysonmyers3137Sure, Anglo-Catholics may have a higher view of the sacraments and liturgy, but not all Anglicans are Anglo-Catholics. Historically, Anglicanism was a Calvinist church, even participating in the Reformed Synod of Dort, and the liturgy was very plain and austere until the 19th century. Hell, even crucifixes were largely considered "popery" until the Oxford Movement, while Lutherans have always retained it along with general iconography

[@MrMomo182]

Queen Anne's Lutheran husband, Prince George of Denmark, legally still had to take C of E communion at least once a year.

[@wizardmadnes8035]

Please do more videos on the different traditions in Continental Europe. Thank you

[@adamkotter6174]

I love how committed to scholarship and Christ-like charity Joshua is. Not a lot of people could take what looks like an insult to their self and to their country and then make a video that fairly represents the potential arguments in favor of the commenter.

[@johanvandersandt8904]

In short... You just got Lutherized with some Anglican sauce on top. 🤣 I always thought that they were similar but there are some distinct differences. Thank you for your videos and awesome church facts!

[@OlviMasta77]

LOL

[@kerry2112]

I'm still waiting for a collab between you and a graphic designer critiquing and explaining all these logos 🤣 Some are pretty, but others . . .

[@mcnielentertainment]

Joshua is right on the "why i am not anglican" type of videos. Dr. Jordan B Cooper is the one Confessional Lutheran Scholar i watch on KZbin. Definitely worth checking his channel after this video. Not trying to spam, just helping inform some viewers of that channel.

[@ma-mo]

You lnow those decks of cards that help you learn to identify military aircraft, or songbirds, or whatever? If you could go ahead and do one for denominations, that'd be great.

[@ReadyToHarvest]

Not a bad idea

[@Anastas1786]

Be careful. If you drop the deck on your foot, you're going to break something.

[@samotte8279]

Thanks for mentioning the differences between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS. It’s frustrating as a WELS member explains the difference between all of the church bodies.

[@logicaredux5205]

Mo Synod Lutherans be like: Groan!

[@richardounjian9270]

As a Catholic, I think calculus is easier to understand! Hat's off to the host for keeping track...mind boggling

[@BramptonAnglican]

Thank you for explaining its not the same. I have many Anglican and Lutheran family members I myself am Anglican. It’s definitely different

[@franklinrobinson]

Wow, Joshua. Your level of research is impressive.

[@ericbrown3247]

I appreciate your distinctions here. One distinction that you came close to mentioning, by bringing up the BCP, is that Lutherans are a confessional church...we confess that the three creeds, along with Luther's Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession and its Apology, are true witnesses to the Gospel. The Anglucan communion is not a confessional Church, although their Articles of Religion found in the Book of Common Prayer takes on a somewhat similar role, and the BCP also contains a Catechism. Again, I really appreciate your careful and thoughtful distinctions in this video.

[@jaredfry]

A simple Venn diagram suffices where an exposition delights. Thanks for the video.

[@TwilightDawn193]

My two most favorite denominations!

[@pinkroses135]

Yeah in America the altar and pulpit fellowship thing with whos allowed to preach up there is a bigger deal

[@joevsimp]

Having been to weddings and christenings in the CofE and den Danske Folkekirke they are definately similar but undoubtedly different, little things like clothing and when the congregation stands or sits

[@TestifyApologetics]

Commenter: Joshua is a naïve American. Joshua: Imma ruin this man's whole career.

[@haydenbernays8602]

You should do a video on the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC)! It was its own body, with REC churches in many countries, and in America it became a founding part of ACNA

[@loriloristuff]

Proving that in some instances, ya can't tell your Lutherans and Anglicans without a scorecard

[@sbccave4015]

I would expect a passive aggressive comment like this from someone who lives in Europe.

[@agricolon]

In addition to the Povoo Association, there is also the "Community of Evangelical Churches in Europe". Members include most of the Lutheran and Reformed churches in Europe, the Uniate churches that arose from amalgamations of these churches, and pre-Reformation churches such as the Waldensians. I (German Lutheran, EKD) attended a conference a few months ago as an observer. And felt this "inner-Protestant" encounter very much as an encounter on an equal footing. Speaking of which, what do you think of Taizé?

[@toddbu-WK7L]

Does anyone else's head explode when watching these videos? Joshua does great work, but I usually get lost in the first few minutes when he focuses on more than one denomination at a time.

[@pinkroses135]

😂 Sometimes I do have to back up a bit. He does a great job of cramming knowledge in a small video.

[@Zundfolge]

My head doesn't explode but I often find his videos a tremendous reinforcement of my "anti-denominational" attitudes.

[@residuejunkie4321]

🎯

[@toddbu-WK7L]

@@Zundfolge Amen to that. This whole notion that we get to pick who and who is not "Christian" based on our own preferences is disheartening. 1 John 4 (the entire chapter) makes it pretty clear that anyone who professes that Jesus is God Incarnate, come to save us from our sins, is a Christian no matter how hard one may try to prove otherwise.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

@@Zundfolge What do you mean by anti-denominational? What would be the alternative to denominations?

[@LutheranIdentity-uj8yk]

An important difference between Anglicanism and Lutheranism is where one put one's focus: church community or confession. Due to the unique situation in Great Britain with both a strong Catholic remnant and active Puritans/Presbyterian groups, the doctrine became subordinate, and the ecclesiastical organization (the episcopate) became emphasized. In Scandinavia, and the Baltics, Lutheranism became more dominant, and the focus therefore became instead on defending the pure doctrine from outside influences. Apostolic succession was retained, but more as an afterthought - something natural that didn't need defending. The Porvoo communion is from a confessional Lutheran perspective a rather strange construction. To enter communion with a chruch who does not have a clearly declared view of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, would be completely unthinkable from a historical perspective. This was the reason why it was not possible to reach an agreement with the radical reformers in the 1530s, for example. That apostolic succession would somehow trump this difference in doctrine is a very Anglican way of thinking, and shows if anything how influenced the Lutheran world has been by English and American, for lack of a better word, "cultural imperialism" for the last 150 years.

[@asarender3846]

Thank you for your videos! Love them so much

[@nathanbeard513]

Wow! Please remind me never to have a disagreement with Joshua. 😊

[@JohnParks-zc1pn]

How dare the European question Joshua? Joshua is the best. I really appreciate his objective analyses of the various religious groups.

[@shaunyip2153]

Now that's how you school a snarky naysayer, but in a true Christian way.

[@pjosip]

This Church splits and mergers have become like NBA draft

[@davidmehling4310]

Another reason people may perceive these church traditions as same is that they are both broadly similar to Roman Catholic as far as general theology, style of service, liturgy, and appearance of buildings. As other commentors have pointed out as well as yourself, there is variety within both on points of doctrine. The Anglican Church of North America split from the Episcopal Church and Anglican Church of Canada in opposition to same sex unions, ordination of gays, abortion, and in some diocese, ordination of women. In the small city where I live, the only ECLA church transfered to National Association of Lutheran Churches over the same issues several years ago

[@davidmehling4310]

On a personal note, I was raised Catholic, left it forty years ago, joined a Presbyterian (PCUSA) church several years after that, left that about twenty five years ago, then this year, started attending an Episcopal church

[@jehl1963]

In the historical clontext, the overlap is clearer. The groups who merged generally can trace themselves back to "state churches".

[@specialteams28]

Right on. The Anglican and Lutheran churches or The Church of England and the church of Germany.

[@johnhouchins3156]

@@specialteams28 The modern confessional Lutheran churches are descendents of those Lutherans who could not in good conscience comply with the states' desire to make things "simpler". We still can't.

[@neilstewart7437]

I am an Episcopalian (Anglican). Being in full Communion with another church does not make both churches the same. Your previous videos about Lutherans and Anglicans were correct to me. I do not see the teachings as the same. To me, apostolic succession is a big deal. Many Lutherans hold no importance to this and mostly have a very different traditional view toward the priesthood (holy orders).

[@RepublicofE]

As a Lutheran I frankly find it a little odd that apostolic succession seems (from the outside at least) to be almost the only thing Anglicans from across the Anglican spectrum agree and insist on. Especially when you consider the degree of latitude allowed on things like the Lord's Supper. Apostolic succession is important to Catholics and Eastern churches because without it they say you don't have a valid celebrant for the eucharist (or at least it's doubtful that you do). But with the majority of Anglican jurisdictions holding to a Reformed view of the Supper, I don't see how AS would be as important for celebrating mass.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

"To me, apostolic succession is a big deal" If only there were some apostles!

[@karpov7233]

Church of Sweden and Church of Finland has it in the same sense as Church of England. Maybe Church of Latvia has got it in recent years. Porvoo churches are episcopalian, but some does not want the succession, in Denmark it is considered a disease which means a Swedish bishop is not allowed to lay the hands of a Danish bishop electus.

[@karpov7233]

About Germany, they are not really Lutherans. Biggest body EKD is a mix of Lutheran and Reformed, has not bishops in the same sense. There are two Lutheran bodies in Germany, SELK being the somewhat bigger. They are not episcopalian like the Porvoo churches and more like the Missouri synod.

[@IncredibleMD]

Damn, even the Porvoo Communion itself disagrees with that dude.

[@felixweinlinger]

All respect to you there was no hint of spit in your response to this comment. You answered with facts and facts only no personal comments only reason.

[@ericmorris6068]

welp.. that answers that. Excellent work Joshua.

[@DavidWesley]

An elegant and brotherly slapdown. For an American, anyway!🤣

[@Kyle-vb3fz]

I’m American and was ELCA Lutheran before getting saved in an SBC church. We attend a Baptist fellowship, and my wife grew up Roman Catholic. Quite the combo.

[@aarongerow1606]

Hey -- great video. My mother was an ELCA pastor who later served as Rector for an Episcopal church. I now live in Northern Ireland and have family in Dublin, Ireland, both where the Church of Ireland is the main Anglican presence. Liturgically, at least, it is indeed different from the ELCA churches I attended in the US. More emphasis is placed on historical aspects related to the BCP and ecumenical relations with various Reformed (mostly Presbyterian) and Wesleyan (mostly Methodist) congregations. Despite many liturgical and historical similarities, the Church of Ireland works hard to distinguish itself from Roman Catholics -- much more than Episcopal or ELCA churches I attended in the US. It's been interesting, also, to see differences between the Church of Ireland congregations in Northern Ireland vs. Ireland. Anecdotally, having attended a few churches regularly in each country, it seems there is less appetite in Northern Ireland for "high church Anglicanism", whereas it is more common in Ireland (Dublin, at least). Again, my guess is that Northern Ireland protestants are more weary of anything that appears a little too Roman Catholic. 🙂 I did want to point out something for future videos: the term "British Isles" is considered pejorative and insensitive by many in Ireland because the islands it refers to are not all British. Saying simply, "the UK and Ireland" is a more respectful term for the same region.

[@Luredreier]

All *are* British. The term predates England and refers to the original Celtic population of what's today England. (It's earliest from in ancient Greek times where the "Pretanic Islands") The island group as a whole got the name because that was the people that continentals interacted with while other tribes further away interacted with far less and less associated with the islands by people not living there.

[@aarongerow1606]

Yeah, the problem is that "British" implies a country -- regardless of history and etymology.

[@Luredreier]

For the record, the reason the UK has its name is that when England and Scotland United they where both mainly located on the biggest island in the island group. The name of the island is Great Britain. Therefore the kingdom located there and made up of the islands two biggest kingdoms got that name. The islands of Shetland are a part of Scotland and therefore of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but like northern Ireland it's *not* located *in* Great Britain, but it *is* located on the British isles, a island group that has had that name since ancient Greek times, even prior to the Roman invasion. Back when the Phoenicians where still competing with the Greeks and not the Romans and Hannibal hadn't been born yet. The Greeks had a colony in whats today Southern France where they traded with the local Celtic tribes, and one of them traveled through France to reach Great Britain (since going through the strait of Gibraltar wasn't a option (it was under Phoenician control) This was all prior to Caesar invading Gaul. And yes, like I said in my previous comment, the island group itself was named the Pretanic Islands... Therefore Ireland was a part of the Pretanic Islands before England was even unified and before the Romans arrived. And regardless of if northern Ireland is a part of the *United Kingdom* of Northern Ireland and Great Britain or not, it'll remain a part of the British isles. But not a part of Great Britain, even if it might be a part of the kingdom named after said island for the duration of said political affiliation. Every single tiny island doting the coast of England, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall is also a part of the kingdom but not a part of Great Britain the island. Lindisfarne for instance is not a part of Great Britain, but a part of the UK. Also, before you ask, no, I'm not from the UK or the Republic of Ireland. And the closest relationship I have is some Faeroese blood... The only way you'll stop being a part of the British isles is if a great rift form and you stop being on the same continental shelf as them...

[@Luredreier]

​@@aarongerow1606 No, British implies a connection to a ancient people and tribe that quite frankly was Celtic. Instead of rejecting the name it would be better to make sure that people use the words correctly.

[@aarongerow1606]

@@Luredreier Yeah, I guess I just think the offence taken is fair -- regardless of the historical accuracy -- because it leads many people to mistake Ireland as part of Britain. And since there's a simple alternative that avoids the (rather reasonable) conflation of "British" with the country commonly called Britain, it's pretty easy to avoid offending people. And "UK & Ireland" is no less accurate, so nothing's really lost either.

[@rldittmann2629]

, I'm always impressed with your fair handed treatment and high high degree of accuracy.

[@mudbrick6083]

Just wanna say that the LCMS has had ecumenical talks with the ACNA Anglican Church but of course they have not come into fellowship because of the ACNA allowing women’s ordination and belief in the Real Presence in the Supper to be “nonessentials” 😂 Also, the WELS is not “more confessional” than the LCMS. They simply interpret the Lutheran Confessions differently than the LCMS. Which is funny and ironic but important as a correction.

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

I wonder if it's possible for the Reformed Episcopal Church to fellowship separately with the LCMS. Since the REC is kind of like a denomination within a denomination and doesn't ordain women.

[@NikoFinn]

Fascinating. I am from Finland. Your pronunciation of Porvoo was close to correct lol.

[@br.m]

Something about this video made me feel like laying in bed listening to the radio hoping and waiting to hear if school is cancelled because of bad weather

[@jhoughjr1]

Just a Euro not knowing what they are talking of. Anglicanism came about independent of Lutheranism.

[@TurtleMarcus]

I also feel it is very relevant to mention that the signers of the original Porvoo Statement were all national state churches (former or current).

[@kithutchinson2461]

I am Lutheran and my parents are Episcopalian. While there are many similarities between Lutheranism and Anglicanism, they are different strands of Christianity.

[@georgebernard5783]

There is a fourth international body of Lutherans that is worth mentioning, the Global Confessional and Missional Lutheran Forum, founded by the NALC. It’s much smaller than the other three but many members are also a part of the LWF (like the Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus), the ILC (such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church - Peru), or both (like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya)

[@brianraftery7675]

Well said, you well-spoken American! Haters gonna hate - nice turning of the cheek.

[@Konantealiajnkredojn]

I love your channel. 💙

[@polikuszka]

Great video! One small point to make however - the use of the term ‘British Isles’ is a contentious one, and the Irish Government does not accept it, as it implies British dominion over Ireland. A less contentious term is either Britain and Ireland, or British and Irish :)

[@ttaibe]

When I use" Britsh Isles" I always assumed that it's understood Ireland isn't part of it..

[@sameash3153]

Ireland can get over it

[@polikuszka]

@@sameash3153 or, you know, you could show respect and kindness to a nation that was occupied for 800 years.

[@talideon]

​@@ttaibeThere's a separate term, "British Islands" that doesn't include Ireland, but as the term "British Isles" is generally considered to include Ireland, it's best avoided, with "Britain and Ireland" being the more neutral term.

[@ttaibe]

@@talideon thx

[@johnmcluckie7401]

Many thanks for this helpful explanation. The only thing I would suggest by way of clarification is that the 'Anglican' churches not in communion with Canterbury in the territories covered by Porvoo are vanishingly small. Its also worth noting that the C of E has agreements with German and French Protestant churches (Meissen and Reuilly respectively, with the other British and Irish Anglicans also being signatories to the latter). Some of the churches in these agreements are Lutheran but they stop short of full communion.

[@Warwickensis]

We're small, but we exist! 😉

[@bradleytarr2482]

I hate it when Europeans or Asians write someone off as unintelligent and misinformed because they are from the US. Rubs me the wrong way.

[@davidbloomquist5385]

That was the most polite spanking of a self righteous European by an American I’ve seen in a while.

[@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool]

And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13

[@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16

[@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool]

Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19

[@johnroscoe2406]

Having fun are you?

[@cooljams_jams]

Don't take an ounce of their crap, Josh. This was the politest smack down of the year.

[@aussiebloke51]

Without naming people or places, I know of one situation where Anglicans use a Lutheran Church for services but retain their own liturgy etc. A visiting Anglican priest will preside at an Anglican Eucharist for the Anglicans but on occasions a Bishop from the Lutheran Church, under the terms of the Porvoo agreement, has administered Confirmation when needed. In this situation at least, the Porvoo Agreement is more about mission than ecumenism. Both the Lutherans and the Anglican retain their heritage and identity, but work together when needed.

[@sirschober3811]

You should do Laestadian Lutheranism

[@Loves_Garage]

Yes please

[@michaelwright2986]

As you point out, there is a question whether Anglicanism is the same church: and this has always been the case, since Henry VIII ("that prince of blessed memory" as the BCP called him) seems to have wanted the old church but without the Pope, whereas some of the clergy were very radical reformers.

[@TheBlackToedOne]

Sir, with all respect this is a trick question as it is impossible to answer. With currently over 40 different synods, "Lutherans" are not the same. The spectrum goes from conservative just this side of Catholicism to liberal to the point of ordaining women, condoning abortion, and performing same-sex marriages.

[@susanmolnar9606]

I love that I was brought up in an ELCA Lutheran Church. Jesus didn’t judge and loved all his children. Yay

[@edbudzynski729]

Essence of Christ teaching is 1, Love God and 2, Love your neighbor.

[@johnhouchins3156]

These explanations may help those outside the Lutheran faith to understand WHY there are some differences between the bodies that matter enough to hold to their doctrine than to participate in unionism. I would hope that any church body would hold to the truth before joining other bodies just to "get along.".

[@Joseph-es6mu]

I'm praying for the unity of Christendom

[@johnroscoe2406]

What an asinine, nasty comment that person made, and how much it says about you that you responded to it with grace and honesty.

[@alonchboye5538]

Have you thought about doing a video on the Igreja Católica Apostolica Brasileira?

[@waynecorker9098]

A very thorough description of the differences. Here in Australia the primary difference is that Lutherans claim a confessional formulation. Anglicans especially the more liberal and progressive reject any confessional boundaries to membership. Sydney tries to set confessional interpretation of anglican formulae but the requirement of personal conversion to christ is not a shared by many anglicans outside Sydney. I understand that no Lutherans would accept this understanding. The interchangeable ministers is more about the pastoral ability of clergy to work in different contexts which reflects the vicar of bray tradition of anglican clergy. This means anglicans are baised to denial of difference with other christain traditions. So in discussions anglicans will talk to every one even seven day Adventists. The only limitation appears to be liberal progressive who do not wish to make concessions to socially conservative christains. If you are not woke we won't talk. In some ways it shows how the inherited definitions of christain dominations now fail to contain the diversity of faith and practice.

[@MrDaAsif]

My church growing up was ECLA and they would have the statement that all were welcome

[@blackoutninja]

One thing to keep in mind is that Anglicanism in the UK is different to Anglicanism in the US- Unlike america there isn't really a substantial presence in Britain of what might be termed Anglo-Lutheranism, that is a fully catholic but truly protestant/lower-case-r-reformed Anglicanism: the church is largely split between Anglo-Catholics who are essentially Roman Catholic-lite, and evangelicals/Charismatics, with a few middle-of-the-road churches here and there.

[@eugjenkulli8288]

Just denominations, no more churches. The Church is One: Catholic.

[@hansspiegl8684]

Feedback from Europe/Austria (not Australia!): In major cities, especially Vienna, there are Anglican communities, but they cater more to English and American individuals working here for a certain period of time rather than those who permanently reside here. These communities are always guests in Lutheran churches. The numbers are simply too small for a real church community to emerge, also because the priests are usually only in Austria for a short time. I don't think anyone is opposed to having a full church community, but the actual numbers and the fact that they are "expatriate communities" prevent such a community from emerging. So we are in an observer position.

[@raptor4916]

How is the luthern community in austria doing? I thought almost all of it got destroyed by the Edict of Restitution?

[@hansspiegl8684]

@@raptor4916 There have always been Protestants in Austria, with approximately 2% of Austrians remaining Lutheran in secret, mainly in the Alpine valleys. After the Tolerance Edict by Emperor Joseph II, communities were established. There have been four periods of growth since then: 1) The "Break with Rome Movement," consisting mainly of liberal-minded citizens in opposition to the Roman Catholic emperor; 2) 1920, when Burgenland became part of Austria (the Burgenland region that belonged to Hungary had not undergone a Counter-Reformation); 3) 1934, when Austria became a Roman Catholic dictatorship, and only church members received work permits, leading to many workers converting to Protestantism; and 4) in 1945, with refugees from Transylvania (present-day Romania) and the Sudetenland (present-day Czech Republic). In 1951, approximately 6% of Austrians identified themselves as members of the Evangelical Church, which has now decreased to around 4% in 2023. Hope this helps.

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

I was surprised that there is a Reformed Episcopal Church in Serbia.

[@hansspiegl8684]

@@jeffkardosjr.3825 We are everywhere - maybe not in Vatican City, but everywhere else ;-)

[@mj6493]

@@raptor4916 My Lutheran congregation in Georgia USA, was founded by Salzburgers. And there are still some of the original Salzburger families who are members. Jerusalem Lutheran Church (founded in 1733), also a Salzburger Church in Georgia, is the oldest continuous worshipping Lutheran Church in America.

[@panicbuyflax3461]

Would you consider one day doing a video on SSPX?

[@roronoanoa7275]

Daaaaang, my man the religion professor rolling up with a savage take down. Hope the commenter loves Jesus, cause he just got crucified.

[@VincentLancon]

Nice outro logo bro

[@schnitzelsemmel]

in continental Europe there's the CPCE (communion of protestant churches in Europe) including most of the lutheran, reformed and methodist churches. Some Nordic Lutheran Churches cooperate, but are not a full member (Church of Sweden, Finnish Lutheran church), while others (Norway, Denmark) are both a member of Porvoo and the CPCE. This means there's lutheran churches that are in full communion only with the other Lutheran churches, some are in full communion with virtually all continental mainline protestnats, some are in communion mainly with the anglicans etc.... Would love a video on the CPCE and the Leuenberg concord.

[@WilliamSwartzendruber]

Why would someone even say something like that to him to begin with? Did he do something to deserve such an attitude?

[@lynnebee47]

St. Olaf’s Lutheran Church in Bear Lake, Ontario, Canada (established 1876) shares any available Lutheran or Anglican minister/pastor willing to provide services for this little congregation of 30 people.

[@P-el4zd]

Fun fact, there are plenty Baptist/Evangelical “female pastors” (emphasis on the quotes).

[@rdc2021]

Seriously the Protestant rebellion is the Devil's masterpiece. Even in Lutheranism there are so many divisions it is sickening and baffling

[@johnroscoe2406]

lol what? This channel is for people with intellectual honesty not fringe nutters.

[@PseudoPseudoDionysius]

Just a heads up that the phrase “British Isles” used to include Ireland is rather controversial among Irish people. Generally most Irish people aren’t going to offended by an American using as a geographical term, but particularly when it’s used by British people, it can be taken to sound a bit chauvinistic.

[@christianusacross5084]

Please we need more Lutherans in Minnesota and the Dakotas!