Are Lutherans and Anglicans the Same?

[@steveempire4625]

Wow, Joshua truly destroyed the commentator piece by piece but with the highest degree of Christian charity and respect.

[@_Palesa_M]

I like that about him 😂

[@rmoss42]

Dude dispatches deluded dissenters deftly, dispassionately, and in-depth, like a Vulcan 🖖

[@shirtless6934]

You have to get up awfully early in the morning to beat Joshua's research skills that is one thing I really enjoy about his videos the thoroughness of his research and presentation

[@AF-tv6uf]

He didn't even crack a smile or use a snide tone in any of the presentation. Just allowed the facts to speak for him. That's pure, distilled scholarship.

[@loriloristuff]

I wholeheartedly concur! Bravo, Joshua.

[@vogerbits2204]

Joshua, you're something else. This is the classiest video response I've seen to a snarky comment in a long time. You must be a fantastic professor.

[@josephnelson9739]

As an English member of the Lutheran Church in Great Britain we certainly are not the same as the church to England… we work together but there are still many theological differences

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

I'm an American member of the Anglican Church and being told I was "well acktuallied" as a Lutheran really made me feel dumbfounded. When I'm not Lutheran. And infact Anglicanism is a via-media denomination between Catholicism and Reformed theology. Though we are neither reform and we are not Catholic either. Upper case Catholic I mean not lower case catholic.

[@josephnelson9739]

I’m not entirely sure what your comment has to do with mine given I made no such claim in my comment… all I am saying is that as a Lutheran, who is in the UK, we are not the same as the Church of England even if we are very close and work together

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

@@josephnelson9739 i didn't say what you think. I mean yea I had the same reaction as you did to the video. I'm pretty much saying "I'm with you bro" but reverse

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

@@josephnelson9739 sorry if you misunderstood me or if I didn't speak clearly

[@memesofconcord1]

No way! Dr. Jordan B. Cooper made it into a Ready to Harvest video! This makes me very happy! 😆

[@-vz-]

wow the "EDIT: you're American" comment got me laughing so hard

[@1258-Eckhart]

Why? He is.

[@sameash3153]

​@1258-Eckhart Because the commenter intended to be patronizing with that statement, and it was read with grace and charitability.

[@1258-Eckhart]

@@sameash3153 How do you know? From which part of the statement are you deriving your interpretation? Turn it through 180° and you add to me in a comment "Oh, your German". I would simply think: "yep, true".

[@sameash3153]

@@1258-Eckhart You are ignoring the eye roll emoji and the accusation that he doesn't understand a subject that his channel revolves around. Those are what make the statement patronizing.

[@1258-Eckhart]

@@sameash3153 On the eye-roll emoji - ok, fair comment, I unfortunately can''t see them properly even with spectacles (and didn't hear Joshua's reading of it). On "not understanding" - disagree, that goes too far. The challenge was "incomplete review, what about Europe?". Joshua has a fantastic understanding of denominational Christianity - possibly unrivalled in the world - and I'm very sure the commentator was not questioning this.

[@Psychoveliatonet]

Opening with that comment was gold 😂 God bless

[@TimC1517]

Great to see Dr. Cooper shouted out in this video! His channel is an excellent resource for Confessional Lutheranism and philosophy more generally

[@jatar6605]

As someone living in Ithaca, NY, that has gone to the same church as Jordan B Cooper, and has debated him back and forth on the exact issue of Lutheranism vs Anglicanism, it brings me immense joy to see him being referenced in this video

[@borisvandruff7532]

#IthacaIsGorges Also Jordan Cooper is awesome.

[@memeboi6017]

Wow that’s awesome!

[@ro6ti]

Cream rises to the top. Joshua and Dr. Cooper are two of my favorites.

[@Luredreier]

​@@ro6tiJordan B Cooper?

[@ro6ti]

@@Luredreier Dr. Jordan B. Cooper, if you really needed it spelled out.

[@christianwalton7080]

Our guy really made another whole video respectfully destroying silly comments piece by piece lol

[@fatherstevek]

Well said, brother! BTW - I'm an Anglican priest in the orthodox ACNA, serving as a Pastor in an orthodox Lutheran church in the NALC. Similar to other ecumenical agreements around the world; the ACNA and the NALC are in communion with each other and are (obviously) open to sharing ordained ministers. Keep up the good and charitable work!

[@Michael29040]

Wanted to add the ELCA entered full communion with the Anglican Church of Canada last year and at the same time the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada entered full communion with The Episcopal Church.

[@AnglicanFish]

They’re also in full communion with the United Methodist Church and United Church of Christ. So yeah they are the same. They’re all just liberal progressive heretics.

[@mercster]

The trend amongst liberal denominations, especially in some pockets, is to merge closer together (made almost necessary by both dwindling member rolls and external social pressures these denominations value, for some reason), evident when two churches with quite different histories, like this, merge. As they value "broad strokes" and societal issues more than doctrinal ones, it makes sense for them to put aside past divergences... who cares, none of it really matters all that much, right? But for this commentor to both a) ascribe great importance to events in the last 30 years, in denominations in a limited geographical area with rapidly dwindling religious adherence, and then b) roll their eyes at you dismissively for being "American", is ridiculous. This person is apparently so far up their own rear end, they think their tiny little experience is all that matters, both historically and geographically.

[@OlviMasta77]

Finnish viewer here. Loved hearing you talk about lutheranism and the nordic region! Porvoo is pronouced differently to what you said. The O vowel is pronouced the same throughout the word. And it sounds like the swedish Å vowel. Hard to explain. Anyways, Keep up the good work, Josh! Love your videos!

[@michaelseay9783]

So is it pronounced Poor-Vah ?

[@Anastas1786]

@@michaelseay9783 Por-voh.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

The Å is what in America is the "Long O"; bow, sew, row, tow or toe.

[@TurtleMarcus]

The only difference between "O" and "OO", is that "OO" is longer (that why there are two of 'em).

[@OlviMasta77]

"Porrrr-voh" is the closest I could think of writing. But if americans say "Porr-voe" we'd understand what place they are referring to. @@Anastas1786

[@kerry2112]

I'm still waiting for a collab between you and a graphic designer critiquing and explaining all these logos 🤣 Some are pretty, but others . . .

[@realDonaldMcElvy]

As an Episcopalian, I can assure you that the Full Communion we have with the ELCA is not a Full Confusion of our heritage.

[@ro6ti]

Most ecumenism is just creative redefining of terms to be able to shake hands for a photo.

[@graysonmyers3137]

Exactly! Anglo catholic Episcopalian here… many of the Episcopalians I know weren’t very thrilled when the Episcopal church made the full communion with the ELCA… some were quite against it. Some were even angry. A common complaint I heard was that “ELCA doesn’t have apostolic succession and is very much off the deep end liberal.” Many outside of the church think we share the same theology because we both accept women’s ordination and gay marriage but that is certainly *not* the case. Episcopalians in America about 90% of the time have a much higher view of the sacraments and liturgy than the ELCA does. And when it comes to more “minor” things like the method of communion and the elements, there are many Episcopalians who find using plastic cups for the wine/blood of Christ sacrilegious.

[@FarmerBill-cl4rb]

I'm a conservative ELCA member, honestly my congregation is closer to the LCMS, I'm not thrilled with the Episcopalians myself

[@mj6493]

@@graysonmyers3137 As a member of the ELCA, I'm fine with the full communion arrangement with the Episcopal Church. Many in the ELCA were not though. They felt that requiring ordination at the hands of a bishop was unnecessarily restrictive. On that issue, we lost quite a few congregations to what is now the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ. They were mostly Pietistic-oriented congregations of Norwegian heritage who were never comfortable with the idea of bishops to begin with. Yes, we are off the deep end liberal (God help us!), but so is the Episcopal Church, so we are a good match on that. Regarding the episcopate, the ELCA adopted apostolic succession at the hands of other Lutheran bishops who were already is apostolic succession as a condition of full communion with the Episcopal Church. So, all ELCA bishops are in apostolic succession. I'm not sure what that's worth though. Neither Rome, nor the East recognize our bishops, so it's mostly just between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church. I'd have to disagree with you on Episcopalians having a higher view of sacraments and liturgy, especially on the sacraments ordained of Christ. From the Augsburg Confession: Article IX. Of Baptism Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism, are received into God’s grace. Article X. Of the Lord’s Supper Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed to those who eat the Supper of the Lord. Short of accepting the Roman doctrine of Transubstantiation, which the Anglican 39 Articles calls repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, I'm unclear how much higher a church could go on Holy Communion. The only time I've ever received communion in plastic cups was during COVID. I suspect protesters on that point have a very limited or localized experience in the Lutheran Church. It's not served that way around where I live.

[@DeFyYing]

​​@@graysonmyers3137Sure, Anglo-Catholics may have a higher view of the sacraments and liturgy, but not all Anglicans are Anglo-Catholics. Historically, Anglicanism was a Calvinist church, even participating in the Reformed Synod of Dort, and the liturgy was very plain and austere until the 19th century. Hell, even crucifixes were largely considered "popery" until the Oxford Movement, while Lutherans have always retained it along with general iconography

[@adamkotter6174]

I love how committed to scholarship and Christ-like charity Joshua is. Not a lot of people could take what looks like an insult to their self and to their country and then make a video that fairly represents the potential arguments in favor of the commenter.

[@mcnielentertainment]

Joshua is right on the "why i am not anglican" type of videos. Dr. Jordan B Cooper is the one Confessional Lutheran Scholar i watch on KZbin. Definitely worth checking his channel after this video. Not trying to spam, just helping inform some viewers of that channel.

[@samotte8279]

Thanks for mentioning the differences between ELCA, LCMS, and WELS. It’s frustrating as a WELS member explains the difference between all of the church bodies.

[@TestifyApologetics]

Commenter: Joshua is a naïve American. Joshua: Imma ruin this man's whole career.

[@logicaredux5205]

Mo Synod Lutherans be like: Groan!

[@BramptonAnglican]

Thank you for explaining its not the same. I have many Anglican and Lutheran family members I myself am Anglican. It’s definitely different

[@pinkroses135]

Yeah in America the altar and pulpit fellowship thing with whos allowed to preach up there is a bigger deal

[@haydenbernays8602]

You should do a video on the Reformed Episcopal Church (REC)! It was its own body, with REC churches in many countries, and in America it became a founding part of ACNA

[@jaredfry]

A simple Venn diagram suffices where an exposition delights. Thanks for the video.

[@joevsimp]

Having been to weddings and christenings in the CofE and den Danske Folkekirke they are definately similar but undoubtedly different, little things like clothing and when the congregation stands or sits

[@TwilightDawn193]

My two most favorite denominations!

[@LutheranIdentity-uj8yk]

An important difference between Anglicanism and Lutheranism is where one put one's focus: church community or confession. Due to the unique situation in Great Britain with both a strong Catholic remnant and active Puritans/Presbyterian groups, the doctrine became subordinate, and the ecclesiastical organization (the episcopate) became emphasized. In Scandinavia, and the Baltics, Lutheranism became more dominant, and the focus therefore became instead on defending the pure doctrine from outside influences. Apostolic succession was retained, but more as an afterthought - something natural that didn't need defending. The Porvoo communion is from a confessional Lutheran perspective a rather strange construction. To enter communion with a chruch who does not have a clearly declared view of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, would be completely unthinkable from a historical perspective. This was the reason why it was not possible to reach an agreement with the radical reformers in the 1530s, for example. That apostolic succession would somehow trump this difference in doctrine is a very Anglican way of thinking, and shows if anything how influenced the Lutheran world has been by English and American, for lack of a better word, "cultural imperialism" for the last 150 years.

[@nathanbeard513]

Wow! Please remind me never to have a disagreement with Joshua. 😊

[@davidmehling4310]

Another reason people may perceive these church traditions as same is that they are both broadly similar to Roman Catholic as far as general theology, style of service, liturgy, and appearance of buildings. As other commentors have pointed out as well as yourself, there is variety within both on points of doctrine. The Anglican Church of North America split from the Episcopal Church and Anglican Church of Canada in opposition to same sex unions, ordination of gays, abortion, and in some diocese, ordination of women. In the small city where I live, the only ECLA church transfered to National Association of Lutheran Churches over the same issues several years ago

[@davidmehling4310]

On a personal note, I was raised Catholic, left it forty years ago, joined a Presbyterian (PCUSA) church several years after that, left that about twenty five years ago, then this year, started attending an Episcopal church

[@jehl1963]

In the historical clontext, the overlap is clearer. The groups who merged generally can trace themselves back to "state churches".

[@specialteams28]

Right on. The Anglican and Lutheran churches or The Church of England and the church of Germany.

[@johnhouchins3156]

@@specialteams28 The modern confessional Lutheran churches are descendents of those Lutherans who could not in good conscience comply with the states' desire to make things "simpler". We still can't.

[@pjosip]

This Church splits and mergers have become like NBA draft

[@georgebernard5783]

There is a fourth international body of Lutherans that is worth mentioning, the Global Confessional and Missional Lutheran Forum, founded by the NALC. It’s much smaller than the other three but many members are also a part of the LWF (like the Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus), the ILC (such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church - Peru), or both (like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya)

[@IncredibleMD]

Damn, even the Porvoo Communion itself disagrees with that dude.

[@michaelwright2986]

As you point out, there is a question whether Anglicanism is the same church: and this has always been the case, since Henry VIII ("that prince of blessed memory" as the BCP called him) seems to have wanted the old church but without the Pope, whereas some of the clergy were very radical reformers.

[@DavidWesley]

An elegant and brotherly slapdown. For an American, anyway!🤣

[@ericmorris6068]

welp.. that answers that. Excellent work Joshua.

[@howaboutataste]

Do people from other countries not recognize American accents?

[@Anastas1786]

Apparently Europeans think we're all either genericized New Yorkers or stereotypical cowboys. Some of them might recognize the occasional Southern accent or maybe a strong Northern Midwestern (not that they could _place_ them; they're just broadly "American"), but unless they have an actual _interest_ in the country or actual British people standing by to compare to, standard "Newscaster's English" just seems to wash right over them and you can pass as just "not from around here" unless they check your passport or you have the gall to smile in public or expect people in the service industry to perform services for you.

[@felixweinlinger]

All respect to you there was no hint of spit in your response to this comment. You answered with facts and facts only no personal comments only reason.

[@kithutchinson2461]

I am Lutheran and my parents are Episcopalian. While there are many similarities between Lutheranism and Anglicanism, they are different strands of Christianity.

[@johnhouchins3156]

These explanations may help those outside the Lutheran faith to understand WHY there are some differences between the bodies that matter enough to hold to their doctrine than to participate in unionism. I would hope that any church body would hold to the truth before joining other bodies just to "get along.".

[@cooljams_jams]

Don't take an ounce of their crap, Josh. This was the politest smack down of the year.

[@polikuszka]

Great video! One small point to make however - the use of the term ‘British Isles’ is a contentious one, and the Irish Government does not accept it, as it implies British dominion over Ireland. A less contentious term is either Britain and Ireland, or British and Irish :)

[@ttaibe]

When I use" Britsh Isles" I always assumed that it's understood Ireland isn't part of it..

[@sameash3153]

Ireland can get over it

[@polikuszka]

@@sameash3153 or, you know, you could show respect and kindness to a nation that was occupied for 800 years.

[@talideon]

​@@ttaibeThere's a separate term, "British Islands" that doesn't include Ireland, but as the term "British Isles" is generally considered to include Ireland, it's best avoided, with "Britain and Ireland" being the more neutral term.

[@ttaibe]

@@talideon thx

[@lynnebee47]

St. Olaf’s Lutheran Church in Bear Lake, Ontario, Canada (established 1876) shares any available Lutheran or Anglican minister/pastor willing to provide services for this little congregation of 30 people.

[@aarongerow1606]

Hey -- great video. My mother was an ELCA pastor who later served as Rector for an Episcopal church. I now live in Northern Ireland and have family in Dublin, Ireland, both where the Church of Ireland is the main Anglican presence. Liturgically, at least, it is indeed different from the ELCA churches I attended in the US. More emphasis is placed on historical aspects related to the BCP and ecumenical relations with various Reformed (mostly Presbyterian) and Wesleyan (mostly Methodist) congregations. Despite many liturgical and historical similarities, the Church of Ireland works hard to distinguish itself from Roman Catholics -- much more than Episcopal or ELCA churches I attended in the US. It's been interesting, also, to see differences between the Church of Ireland congregations in Northern Ireland vs. Ireland. Anecdotally, having attended a few churches regularly in each country, it seems there is less appetite in Northern Ireland for "high church Anglicanism", whereas it is more common in Ireland (Dublin, at least). Again, my guess is that Northern Ireland protestants are more weary of anything that appears a little too Roman Catholic. 🙂 I did want to point out something for future videos: the term "British Isles" is considered pejorative and insensitive by many in Ireland because the islands it refers to are not all British. Saying simply, "the UK and Ireland" is a more respectful term for the same region.

[@Luredreier]

All *are* British. The term predates England and refers to the original Celtic population of what's today England. (It's earliest from in ancient Greek times where the "Pretanic Islands") The island group as a whole got the name because that was the people that continentals interacted with while other tribes further away interacted with far less and less associated with the islands by people not living there.

[@aarongerow1606]

Yeah, the problem is that "British" implies a country -- regardless of history and etymology.

[@Luredreier]

For the record, the reason the UK has its name is that when England and Scotland United they where both mainly located on the biggest island in the island group. The name of the island is Great Britain. Therefore the kingdom located there and made up of the islands two biggest kingdoms got that name. The islands of Shetland are a part of Scotland and therefore of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but like northern Ireland it's *not* located *in* Great Britain, but it *is* located on the British isles, a island group that has had that name since ancient Greek times, even prior to the Roman invasion. Back when the Phoenicians where still competing with the Greeks and not the Romans and Hannibal hadn't been born yet. The Greeks had a colony in whats today Southern France where they traded with the local Celtic tribes, and one of them traveled through France to reach Great Britain (since going through the strait of Gibraltar wasn't a option (it was under Phoenician control) This was all prior to Caesar invading Gaul. And yes, like I said in my previous comment, the island group itself was named the Pretanic Islands... Therefore Ireland was a part of the Pretanic Islands before England was even unified and before the Romans arrived. And regardless of if northern Ireland is a part of the *United Kingdom* of Northern Ireland and Great Britain or not, it'll remain a part of the British isles. But not a part of Great Britain, even if it might be a part of the kingdom named after said island for the duration of said political affiliation. Every single tiny island doting the coast of England, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall is also a part of the kingdom but not a part of Great Britain the island. Lindisfarne for instance is not a part of Great Britain, but a part of the UK. Also, before you ask, no, I'm not from the UK or the Republic of Ireland. And the closest relationship I have is some Faeroese blood... The only way you'll stop being a part of the British isles is if a great rift form and you stop being on the same continental shelf as them...

[@Luredreier]

​@@aarongerow1606 No, British implies a connection to a ancient people and tribe that quite frankly was Celtic. Instead of rejecting the name it would be better to make sure that people use the words correctly.

[@aarongerow1606]

@@Luredreier Yeah, I guess I just think the offence taken is fair -- regardless of the historical accuracy -- because it leads many people to mistake Ireland as part of Britain. And since there's a simple alternative that avoids the (rather reasonable) conflation of "British" with the country commonly called Britain, it's pretty easy to avoid offending people. And "UK & Ireland" is no less accurate, so nothing's really lost either.

[@aussiebloke51]

Without naming people or places, I know of one situation where Anglicans use a Lutheran Church for services but retain their own liturgy etc. A visiting Anglican priest will preside at an Anglican Eucharist for the Anglicans but on occasions a Bishop from the Lutheran Church, under the terms of the Porvoo agreement, has administered Confirmation when needed. In this situation at least, the Porvoo Agreement is more about mission than ecumenism. Both the Lutherans and the Anglican retain their heritage and identity, but work together when needed.

[@alonchboye5538]

Have you thought about doing a video on the Igreja Católica Apostolica Brasileira?

[@BlueHayterade]

Daaaaang, my man the religion professor rolling up with a savage take down. Hope the commenter loves Jesus, cause he just got crucified.

[@MrDaAsif]

My church growing up was ECLA and they would have the statement that all were welcome

[@WilliamSwartzendruber]

Why would someone even say something like that to him to begin with? Did he do something to deserve such an attitude?

[@schnitzelsemmel]

in continental Europe there's the CPCE (communion of protestant churches in Europe) including most of the lutheran, reformed and methodist churches. Some Nordic Lutheran Churches cooperate, but are not a full member (Church of Sweden, Finnish Lutheran church), while others (Norway, Denmark) are both a member of Porvoo and the CPCE. This means there's lutheran churches that are in full communion only with the other Lutheran churches, some are in full communion with virtually all continental mainline protestnats, some are in communion mainly with the anglicans etc.... Would love a video on the CPCE and the Leuenberg concord.

[@brianraftery7675]

Well said, you well-spoken American! Haters gonna hate - nice turning of the cheek.

[@bradleytarr2482]

I hate it when Europeans or Asians write someone off as unintelligent and misinformed because they are from the US. Rubs me the wrong way.

[@HatterTobias]

Wildest question I've seen today

[@jec1ny]

If I may borrow a one word summary popular among the younger generation, the original commentor has been pwned.

[@blackoutninja]

One thing to keep in mind is that Anglicanism in the UK is different to Anglicanism in the US- Unlike america there isn't really a substantial presence in Britain of what might be termed Anglo-Lutheranism, that is a fully catholic but truly protestant/lower-case-r-reformed Anglicanism: the church is largely split between Anglo-Catholics who are essentially Roman Catholic-lite, and evangelicals/Charismatics, with a few middle-of-the-road churches here and there.

[@TheBlackToedOne]

Sir, with all respect this is a trick question as it is impossible to answer. With currently over 40 different synods, "Lutherans" are not the same. The spectrum goes from conservative just this side of Catholicism to liberal to the point of ordaining women, condoning abortion, and performing same-sex marriages.

[@susanmolnar9606]

I love that I was brought up in an ELCA Lutheran Church. Jesus didn’t judge and loved all his children. Yay

[@vngelicath1580]

It's about having a sufficient degree of overlap - not becoming identical. For example, whether liberal or conservative, all Lutherans agree that apostolic succession is not necessary for full communion (as the Porvoo Lutherans and the ELCA are members of the LWF and share full communion with churches with all sorts of other polities/ecclesiologies, whether Lutheran or Reformed). This is not the same with the Episcopalians/Anglican Communion, who require episcopal orders for full fellowship (per the Lambeth Quadrilateral) and thus are only able to enter communion with Lutherans or Methodists under special conditions. There's workable overlap but still a sizable amount of asymmetry.

[@waynecorker9098]

A very thorough description of the differences. Here in Australia the primary difference is that Lutherans claim a confessional formulation. Anglicans especially the more liberal and progressive reject any confessional boundaries to membership. Sydney tries to set confessional interpretation of anglican formulae but the requirement of personal conversion to christ is not a shared by many anglicans outside Sydney. I understand that no Lutherans would accept this understanding. The interchangeable ministers is more about the pastoral ability of clergy to work in different contexts which reflects the vicar of bray tradition of anglican clergy. This means anglicans are baised to denial of difference with other christain traditions. So in discussions anglicans will talk to every one even seven day Adventists. The only limitation appears to be liberal progressive who do not wish to make concessions to socially conservative christains. If you are not woke we won't talk. In some ways it shows how the inherited definitions of christain dominations now fail to contain the diversity of faith and practice.

[@Mazinga]

Sorry but why do you show a picture of a female pastor when talking about Lutherans. ELCA by definition is not Lutheran. They are apostates, neither lutheran nor christian.

[@hansspiegl8684]

Feedback from Europe/Austria (not Australia!): In major cities, especially Vienna, there are Anglican communities, but they cater more to English and American individuals working here for a certain period of time rather than those who permanently reside here. These communities are always guests in Lutheran churches. The numbers are simply too small for a real church community to emerge, also because the priests are usually only in Austria for a short time. I don't think anyone is opposed to having a full church community, but the actual numbers and the fact that they are "expatriate communities" prevent such a community from emerging. So we are in an observer position.

[@raptor4916]

How is the luthern community in austria doing? I thought almost all of it got destroyed by the Edict of Restitution?

[@hansspiegl8684]

@@raptor4916 There have always been Protestants in Austria, with approximately 2% of Austrians remaining Lutheran in secret, mainly in the Alpine valleys. After the Tolerance Edict by Emperor Joseph II, communities were established. There have been four periods of growth since then: 1) The "Break with Rome Movement," consisting mainly of liberal-minded citizens in opposition to the Roman Catholic emperor; 2) 1920, when Burgenland became part of Austria (the Burgenland region that belonged to Hungary had not undergone a Counter-Reformation); 3) 1934, when Austria became a Roman Catholic dictatorship, and only church members received work permits, leading to many workers converting to Protestantism; and 4) in 1945, with refugees from Transylvania (present-day Romania) and the Sudetenland (present-day Czech Republic). In 1951, approximately 6% of Austrians identified themselves as members of the Evangelical Church, which has now decreased to around 4% in 2023. Hope this helps.

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

I was surprised that there is a Reformed Episcopal Church in Serbia.

[@hansspiegl8684]

@@jeffkardosjr.3825 We are everywhere - maybe not in Vatican City, but everywhere else ;-)

[@mj6493]

@@raptor4916 My Lutheran congregation in Georgia USA, was founded by Salzburgers. And there are still some of the original Salzburger families who are members. Jerusalem Lutheran Church (founded in 1733), also a Salzburger Church in Georgia, is the oldest continuous worshipping Lutheran Church in America.

[@P-el4zd]

Fun fact, there are plenty Baptist/Evangelical “female pastors” (emphasis on the quotes).

[@HavenDee28]

One difference I noted between Episcopalian and Lutheran churches in the US is that the processions and vestments are standard in Episcopalian churches, less so in Lutheran. However I have been watching Lutheran services on YT for awhile (for the organ music) and was surprised to see as many vestments and celebrants as even a Catholic church. Do Lutherans have bishops and archbishops?

[@SantaFe19484]

I never knew this question existed.

[@mercster]

It's like that commenter has no sense of history, and also believes developments within liberal churches in Europe have any historical relevancy. Gee, wasn't that comment so loving and patient.

[@mercster]

The trend amongst liberal denominations, especially in some pockets, is to merge closer together (made almost necessary by both dwindling member rolls and external social pressures these denominations value, for some reason), evident when two churches with quite different histories, like this, merge. As they value "broad strokes" and societal issues more than doctrinal ones, it makes sense for them to put aside past divergences... who cares, none of it really matters all that much, right? But for this commentor to both a) ascribe great importance to events in the last 30 years, in denominations in a limited geographical area with rapidly dwindling religious adherence, and then b) roll their eyes at you dismissively for being "American", is ridiculous. This person is apparently so far up their own rear end, they think their tiny little experience is all that matters, both historically and geographically. What a doofus.

[@mercster]

The problem with this video, my friend, is that this person just wanted to turn their nose up at an American / others' beliefs in the first place, so they will just turn their nose up even harder this time. 😉 Well done though.

[@Joseph-es6mu]

I'm praying for the unity of Christendom

[@ChristianTravelers]

or just Biblical vs whatever the liberals believe ... nice scholarship, Joshua!

[@johnroscoe2406]

What an asinine, nasty comment that person made, and how much it says about you that you responded to it with grace and honesty.

[@grumble2009]

Nicely explained!

[@Eye_of_a_Texan]

This channel just continues to illustrate why we need central executive administration in order to have even the hope of achieving unity among believers. Lemmings my dudes. Most of us are just big brain lemmings.

[@thecatholicperspective]

"I hated celebrating with the Finnish Lutherans" said my Anglican monk friend. It was a curious remark

[@Yannis1a]

It sounds like the commenter is from Spain or Portugal, as an Orthodox Christian raised in a Hispanic Catholic country, we are taught very little about evangelical churches, especially about Anglicanism and Lutheranism, also neither Spain nor Portugal have Lutheran churches that are LFW member He said that in Europe they are seen as the same but his comment is very Hispanic centric, where all non-Catholic churches are refer as “Evangelical” As far as I know, I don’t think that Lutherans in Scandinavia or Anglicans in the UK, would see themselves as the same church

[@JWParkerPhDDDiv]

Just wanted to point out one major theological difference. Anglicans "The Pope is the rightful bishop of Rome", Lutherans "some call the pope the antichrist, others don't see him as a valid source of leadership in the church" just a thing to note.

[@KouassiBriceYao-x6t]

20 Now let’s come back to our text. Public confession is a nightmare for the workers of sins in the assemblies. That is why they do not want it. They are sad when we speak of public confession. And a member of the assembly of gods’ church told me, "The Message is true and I really want to come but if you abolish the public confession, you will make many more converts!" Others say, "If I confess publicly, some disciples will go and speak of my confession outside!" But, if so, do not sin then! You see? A so-called confession addressed directly to God is of the devil. You see? Every confession must be done publicly before the assembly. This is the commandment of God today. This is the Message and the revelation of Jesus Christ today.

[@RW77777777]

at least we get to know he's splitting with Episcopalians as well as Anglicans

[@maxonmendel5757]

theology aside, isnt just looking at history enough to determine that lutherans and anglicans dont identify with each other?

[@WillyBraggTV]

Most Methodists & Presbyterians are liturgically indistinguishable from each other, Same with most Anglican & Lutherans. There are, however, theological differences....

[@rdc2021]

Seriously the Protestant rebellion is the Devil's masterpiece. Even in Lutheranism there are so many divisions it is sickening and baffling

[@johnroscoe2406]

lol what? This channel is for people with intellectual honesty not fringe nutters.

[@geraldarcuri9307]

QED. Excellent clarification, calmly and soundly explaining the question... for an American! 😊 It appears that "Anglicans and Lutherans" as descriptors are about as precise as "Evangelical". Way too confusing, and not a very good witness to the world as an example of the unity of the Body.

[@eugjenkulli8288]

Just denominations, no more churches. The Church is One: Catholic.

[@susanmolnar9606]

I can’t for the life of me believe that these commenters to this channel actually believe that they have an open heart or understanding of other people’s beliefs. God did not make us all the same and gave us free will and free thinking. And most importantly love in our hearts towards others. So much name calling, I can’t believe it!

[@ryanhouk3560]

American here and definitely not an authority... But I figured protestantism broadly split off into 2 (arguably up to 4) super broad categories. Churches who are or came from Lutheranism like the Mennonites And Churches who are or came from Anglicanism, to include Calvinism and extreme American protestantism like Later day Saints or Jehovah's witness ... I'm sure someone who's much more educated than me in this will correct where I'm wrong. ... Broadly I'm just thinking about Americans, and their heritage with Germany, and Great Britain. ... That said my grandfather was German and grew up church of Christ (Calvinist based)

[@andrewmrcz]

I’m confused how the commenter didn’t know this guy was American from the get go. I guess he could’ve thought he was Canadian?

[@AmericanShia786]

I'd put my money on Ready to Harvest in any debate with a European Christian! Joshua wouldn't even do an eye roll after winning the debate. He's a true scholar.

[@TheBejbiborn]

I'm surprised you took so much time to respond to a comment that was obviously ignorant 😅😅😅

[@rickpettey8822]

One thing must be made perfectly clear: Lutheran is not always Lutheran. Meaning, just because the word "Lutheran" is in the title of a particular church body, that does not mean it is actually Lutheran. For example, the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) is NOT a Lutheran church, nor even Christian in its teaching. I am not saying that there are no Lutherans/Christians in its midst. That would require me to be able to read into their minds. God, alone, knows the hearts of men. No, I am simply making a factual statement that, that church body in its teachings, has denied both The Lutheran Confessions in doctrine and practice as well as the Word of God (i.e., supporting abortion, homosexuality, etc.) That means it is supporting willful sin. THAT (caps are for emphasis, not screaming :) is what determines if it is either Lutheran or Christian (1 John 3:9).

[@joaovitormatos8147]

I guess one of the main points in this commenter (I know their intent was probably just to be obnoxious and to hate Americans, but) is about the polity. While lutheranism in Europe has an episcopal polity, which makes people from the outside see those churches as similar (they have a similar structure and even a State-church relationship with their countries that closely resembles the Church of England), while in the US, lutherans are congregational, looking similar to other US-based protestant religions

[@cinnamondan4984]

Confirmation is not done in Anglican churches? I have a Catholic and LDS background so confirmation in these faiths is very essential.

[@ReadyToHarvest]

They definitely do it, and there's split opinion on whether to call it a sacrament.

[@cinnamondan4984]

@@ReadyToHarvest ah that clarification helps

[@Polumetis]

Utterly besides the point but the last two o's in 'Porvoo' are said in the same way as the o in 'more'. 😜

[@Snidbert]

remember: never take communion outside of your home church, or else your theology will become identical to that of the church you took communion in

[@philipdouglas5911]

There are two big blocks of Anglicans within Europe. The largest are part of the diocese of Gibraltar in Europe which is part of the Church of England and the second being the conclave of American churches. Even within these two the differences are striking. The American church does not have much in the way of authorised lay ministry whilst English one has the office of the Reader who are trained to preach and lead worship. The BCP is a different beast between the two. For the Americans it is the current prayer book but for the English it is something that dates from 1662. For them contemporary worship is provided by the library of material found in Common Worship. These are simple differences without even laying alongside each other that of theology which could open a can of worms. The Lutheran members of Porvoo are probably just as diverse so I would hate to say that they were the same.

[@michaelkingsbury4305]

Pore Voh. Stress on the first syllable, long on the o o.

[@bbseal6174]

The Christian shade, Joshua

[@bradleygilmore5638]

Try telling someone from the LCMS and the ANCA they are basically the same. I. Dare. You.

[@nilsalmgren4492]

Now your female litteran pastor makes sense. You used ELCA as Lutheran. You should have given her the gay flag sash as well.

[@leonardsmalls2758]

I left the ELCA because they bless sin. I moved to the LCMS. It's sad to see the anglicans bless sin as well.

[@poesia-com-cafeina]

I feel you brother. I attend an Episcopal church that is traditional and orthodox. My Parish does not allow women priests and upholds the traditional view of marriage. We could all go to thr ACNA, but I believe that our parish is being a light within this denomination, and we are even expanding with a second campus.

[@Jamie-kn1fw]

I'm so confused. I feel God is calling me at the same time that I'm searching him....

[@Warwickensis]

Don't beat yourself up. Confusion is a good sign that something is stirring in your soul. Keep praying, studying Holy Scripture, and look at the churches around you. Almighty God is faithful, so you will be shown where to go. Until He does, embrace your confusion and remember that you ARE loved.

[@dannycalley7777]

J .............this could start the new Crusades in Europe ?????

[@TheMahayanist]

In America, the Anglicans (Episcopal) and Lutherans are in communion too. Eh, I'd still say there's a bunch of theological differences, Anglicans are more "Catholic and Reformed" whereas, Lutherans are fairly committed to Luther's theology, much less "Catholic"

[@BubblyBrainiac]

The idea that Lutherans and Anglicans are the same, but Lutherans don’t use the Book of Common Prayer, baffles me as an Anglican. This is also something to be said about the history of how influences denominational identity.

[@PUAlum]

Just exhausting. Makes me want to burst into that old WW2 song, "bless them all, bless them all..."

[@amapparatistkwabena]

Europeans are going to get enough of the Hollywood trope that Americans are dull-especially since the same industry has managed to sell its products to their unsuspecting public. After having lived in Europe for the better part of a decade, let me tell you: there’s no lack of ignorance on the “continent” (these people don’t even realize that Africa, Asia and Europe are all one large,l connected land mass).