Are Members of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints Christians?

We literally have Jesus Christ in our name. Where is the line between who is and is not Christian? Who gets to decide? What determines if a person is a Christian? Their actions? Their theology? Or something else? What does it mean to be a Christian and does it really matter?
#mormon ‪@VocabMalone‬ #LDS #salvation #faith #christianity

[@KelseasComments]

Nothing strengthens my testimony in the LDS beliefs as much as a Calvinist explaining their theology. 🙌

[@thepreacher5934]

5 Points of Calvinism Refuted - kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJTCkJ-kZtKplaMsi=UCKQCXc60p3KWt9T

[@wfTitus]

Facts

[@S7ZEE]

Very well put.

[@linbigrain8411]

So true.

[@DaremoDaremo]

This other thing is, this guy says, Joseph Smith this or that, but he is only able to say that because we have more data on Joseph Smith than Peter and Paul, etc. History is 0.00000001% of what actually COULD HAVE been recorded. And then, on top of that, as time goes on, records get lost, etc., only a fraction remains. What we have on Joseph Smith is a lot relative to what we have on Peter and Paul, but still only a fraction of what could have. So, logically, this guy should hold off judgment on Joseph Smith until there is a full and complete record and likewise, not lift up Paul as if he did no wrong or something. We simply don’t have much about Paul to say one way or another.

[@adlpsfko]

in addition, the little of what we actually do know about Paul is about how degenerate and terrible he used to be before his conversion

[@DaremoDaremo]

@@ChristianRescue Can't ignore history? What an illogical thing to say. None of us have access to 100%, hence we all ignore history whether we admit it or not. That is self-evident. True history is a perfect account of everything. No errors. No false records, etc. What we presently have even for current affairs is just a fraction of a fraction and is filled with false records on top of that. As time passes, and people can no longer be interviewed, etc. (becomes historical matter), the matter becomes vastly more complicated. It is kind of like trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle without the box showing a picture of what it is and without knowing how many pieces there really are in total. Even the most expert historian only has access to a very, very few pieces of all that could have existed if a true and perfect historical record existed. So, even the most expert historian in even just one specific matter, will ultimately be out of luck in getting it right. It can't be done. Case in point, anyone here that can even get their own history right perfectly? Heck. I read my old journals and I am like "I don't remember that. Maybe, I guess." And I certainly can't recreate in perfect detail my own life.

[@DaremoDaremo]

@@ChristianRescue Why hold off on the covenant path for history (which is almost always terribly poor history) this or that or anything that anyone is saying this or that? That is, why jump ship when there is just as much a reason for staying on ship? You will be waiting a long time if you are going to wait for history to get to the level that you can actually act on something that is ultimately a matter of faith regardless. (It never will get there, by the way, not in this lifetime at least.) Same goes for everything. Everything is belief. None of us know anything perfectly and for certain The most knowledgeable person on topic X still is way away from perfect knowledge and certainty on topic X and none of us know for certain what will happen in the next nanosecond. The physical universe might scratch and itch and we will all be less than an afterthought for all we know. So, whether you choose to stay on the covenant path or not, it is still a form of belief. You have merely hitched your wagon to another belief paradigm is all. As for me and for my house, until someone can show me a superior belief paradigm to that of me being an eternal being and spiritual child of Heavenly Father and Mother, and that I chose to follow Christ to this mortal existence to continue in my eternal progress, and that I am presently an eternal spirit in a mortal shell going through a closed book test of sorts then I have no reason to jump ship.

[@emh7956]

@@ChristianRescue Are you sure that the negative things you have heard about Joseph Smith are true? His whole life demonstrates that he was a good and righteous man who was trying to live according to God's will. My testimony is that he was called of God and gave his life in His cause. I thank God for the sacrifice that he gave to teach us of God, the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. What he accomplished in his lifetime was astounding. He couldn't have done it on his own. He was called of God.

[@mascotbenches5146]

A lot has been said against the lds conception of Jesus. In my estimation the other Christian groups limit Christs power to save or offer salvation to all the children of God and condemn billions to a future l I outside of the chance to accept him. The non lds Christians concept of God and Jesus do not to my mind offer hope for a broad opportunity for reunification with God and seem to limit his power to save and help All his children. I prefer to see the Bible through the lens of modern prophets that show a Jesus that reaches all God's children and extends the arm of help to all that will sccept him given an honest chance. The lds world view is much more hopeful and shows that Christ is powerful to save.

[@topazblahblah]

Salvation is NOT the same as exaltation. There are qualifications to be a joint-heir with Christ and receive all that the Father hath. The gospel was built on belief (faith) - but that was just the first step.

[@ranzelganzon850]

IF BEING A CHRISTIAN IS HOW THE MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANS BELIEVE WHO CHRIST IS, THEN WE LDS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS; BUT IF THE DEFINITION OF BEING A CHRISTIAN IS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, THEN WE ARE CHRISTIANS! NO NEED TO ARGUE WITH THEM. 😊

[@zionking2634]

I love watching these debates it's like a, original & clones trying to prove who is the imposter. through in a Muslim and we would have among us.

[@Forestgump12able]

I LEFT AN EVANGELICAL CHURCH TO JOIN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST. I FOUND MORE TRUTH IN ONE DAY THAN 5 YEARS OF THETE STUDY. 42 YEARS NOW. STILL HAPPY, CONTINUE TO LEARN AND GROW. IM HAPPY. THANK YOU. BOOK OF MORMON AND THE GOD WHO PROVIDED THE TRUTH FOR ME.

[@markkrispin6944]

You are brainwashed.

[@yellowhumpy14]

40:45 What if Joseph had literally denied knowing Jesus not once, but 3 times to Jesus's enemies? Would Vocab and the others also hold that against him and use it as evidence that he could not have been a divinely-authorized servant and spokesman for God? Certainly no other authorized servant has ever done that, right? Right!? Surely Peter would never have done anything like that and according to Vocab and his theology...Jesus built the entire church on Peter.

[@ryanreynolds5536]

Peter also lacked faith to walk on the water, and had so much anger he tried to kill people when they came to arrest Jesus 🤔. Peter couldn’t have been an authority for Jesus!

[@crazyaboutcards]

​@@ryanreynolds5536exactly. If Jesus chose imperfect Peter to lead His church, we all have a chance to help in the kingdom. 😊

[@reygabrielruizan4872]

I'm a Roman Catholic and Investigate many Protestants Church, and when "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" came to Our Family, it just answers Everything what Our Questions is, it is like Our God Really Lives He talks with Us, We are really Guided with the One True God. That's why Our Family becomes Member of The True Church of Christ...God Bless🙏

[@ibman8327]

Just what did they answer?

[@s.m.1882]

Beyond glad!! ❤

[@richardbarrow4620]

I attended Trinity Lutheran Church through 8th grade. These were very spiritual people. In the 6th grade I accepted Christ as my Savior and experienced bring born again. I covenanted to keep his commandments and he gave me the Holy Ghost. 12 years later I joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Good news. Same Jesus and same Holy Ghost. The biggest difference for me was instead of suggesting I keep the commandments, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints expects me to keep them.

[@ibman8327]

@@richardbarrow4620 You left the Gospel of Christ for a false Gospel that cannot save from a man-made religion "Do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! and who bewitch you. Even so, the Book of Mormon says you are saved by belief and baptized are saved 3th Nephi ch 11(BTW I don't Believe it's God's word) Read the book of Galatians and know that you are following Jesus's command by loving your neighbor as yourself. And know that I am motivated by James 5:19 I believe you wander from the truth and I'll going to pray that God brings you back to the truth, The whole truth.

[@iknovate]

As a former devout Catholic I always say that in becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I went from grade school to a PhD program. Or as Paul Harvey would say, I learned "the rest of the story”. I didn't meet a different Jesus. I just deepened my understanding of the one I already knew. It's a broader perspective.

[@sama.scraps]

I really like how the narrator in Useful charts define LDS church members. He calls them “non-nicene” Christians.

[@jGeothro]

My criteria for who is Christian basically starts and ends with John 13:35 If you profess to be a follower of Christ and that belief is made manifest in your love for your fellow man, you’re a Christian. You’re denominational affiliation (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to the question.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

The trinity isn't irrelevant in what makes a person Christian or Not Christian.

[@drewsclues5394]

Based

[@tonymason9855]

​@@davidjanbaz7728The Book of Mormon says they are one eternal God. Alma 11:44 Mormon 7:7. All of 3 Nephi chapter 11. D&C 20:28 is part of early revelation from Joseph Smith. Again they are one eternal God without end. D&C 39:1. I could go on and on. They are God and Jesus Christ is who we follow. The only way to the Father is through him right? We call on the Father in his name because of the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

[@joshua.snyder]

Matthew 7:21-23 adds an important distinction to that.

[@jGeothro]

@@joshua.snyder Very true, and those people will be found in every denomination. I’m not prepared to paint with such a broad brush that I label an entire church as hell (or heaven) bound.

[@davidfrey5654]

Saying this religion or that religion is not Christian puts God in a TINY LITTLE BOX. Even if a child of God believes in a distorted view of Jesus Christ, God is smart enough and merciful enough to accept that person's sincere belief and devotion. It's mortal men who want to judge others and argue who is wrong.

[@TheFamilyLife6]

100%

[@mahonri69]

Amen brother!

[@SimonDaumMusic]

Not just is God smart, but he also made clear in 1 Tim 2:1-6 that he "wants to save everyone".. And God being God, expressing that desire, makes clear to me that he literally does all he can, which includes to take into acount all the individual differences and backrounds.. somethingh we simply cant do, since we cant grasp all that makes one life so different from another..

[@davidjanbaz7728]

LOL 😆 Matthew 7:15- 23 it does matter to God and he isn't accepting counterfeit teachings even if you R 100% sincere!

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@TheFamilyLife6 your non sequitur is hilarious 🤣 your counterfeit church isn't Christian as Mathew 7 :15-24 predicted that false prophets would arise in the Latter Days . Jesus will say I never knew you: you really should worry about what Jesus thinks of you : then me laughing at your insane church teachings that somehow you think R more Christian than Historical Christianity from the Authentic Apostles.

[@kareemhetaraka-brown1259]

Christian’s have hundreds of different Jesus within their own theology. Every different Christian denomination worships a different Jesus, with different doctrines. One lord, one faith one hundred thousand different denominations. Can see why Joseph Smith was confused. Hail to the Prophet who communed with Jehovah.

[@algregory5161]

I agree. That was the same thought I was having! Since a conversion and being born again is so unique and personal, and I would assume this qualifying experience could dramatically differ from one Christian to another (including how one believes/interprets who Christ is) - it seems odd that the non-LDS Christians aren’t calling each other out more. Because in all cases it’s a matter of degree. But let’s be very clear, of the thousands of Christian denominations, the LDS church crosses that line, that degree. So be it; that distinction, that persecution for His name sake, sounds pretty biblical to me. In addition, good will appear evil and visa versa. I believe we’re here to develop Christ-like attributes so that when we see him, we will be like him. I would think that God acknowledges that we all worship a “different God” to some degree, but what’s most important to him (as our loving Father) is that we become more and more like him and his Son.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

This is Christian arrogance. I left evangelical Christianity partly because of it. These people have an idea of Christianity which is narrowly defined. I agree the Book of Mormon is different from the mainstream or that temples fall out of line. And we reject the Trinity since Jesus Christ never taught it. But I think the LDS church has a better understanding of Christianity, Jesus Christ, and Grace.

[@RealHorhay]

The way is narrow.

[@wadeenglund5095]

We can love Evangelicals without granting them and their interpretation of the Bible the trademark on the term "Christian."

[@suem6004]

Indeed. Jacob should have skewered him on Luther’s anathema.

[@BoykinBoxing]

I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation Jacob. It amazes me how committed many people are to keep their eyes shut even when they obviously contridict themselves 😢

[@josephbartholomew6253]

Unfortunately vocab declined to directly answer questions… I’m still waiting for him to give his list of what are the essential qualities of Jesus and of Christians

[@thekalechipsvendetta]

Agreed. Wish he would have listened to what Jacob was saying, and stop trying to redirect to “not sensational” points.

[@Twayne777]

Evangelical Christians typically hold certain essential qualities of Jesus in high regard based on their interpretation of the Bible and their faith. Here are some key qualities of Jesus according to evangelical beliefs: 1. **Son of God**: Evangelicals believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). They see Jesus as divine and believe in his unique relationship with God the Father. 2. **Savior**: Evangelicals believe that Jesus came to earth to save humanity from sin and reconcile them with God. They emphasize Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross as the means of salvation for all who believe in him. 3. **Messiah**: Evangelicals view Jesus as the promised Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, who came to fulfill God's plan of redemption for humanity. 4. **Teacher and Prophet**: Evangelicals see Jesus as a profound teacher who imparted moral and spiritual truths. They also recognize him as a prophet who spoke with authority and foretold future events. 5. **Miracle Worker**: Evangelicals believe in the miracles performed by Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, and walking on water. These miracles demonstrate his divine power and compassion. 6. **Example of Love and Compassion**: Evangelicals admire Jesus for his teachings on love, forgiveness, and compassion. They strive to emulate his example in their own lives by showing love to others and serving those in need. 7. **Resurrection**: Evangelicals affirm the belief in Jesus' resurrection from the dead, which they see as a central tenet of the Christian faith. They believe that Jesus conquered death and offers eternal life to those who believe in him. 8. **Second Coming**: Evangelicals anticipate the second coming of Jesus, when he will return to earth to establish his kingdom and judge the living and the dead. This belief shapes their understanding of the future and motivates them to live in readiness for his return. These qualities of Jesus are foundational to evangelical beliefs and shape their understanding of who Jesus is and his significance in the Christian faith.

[@DavidPeel-fo9xv]

@@thekalechipsvendettaThe dude literally said that we believe Jesus was a sinful man, and that God had sex with Mary. This is all “Godmakers” show crap that tries to make us look like we hold this as doctrine, which we don’t.

[@RealHorhay]

Read the Nicene Creed. That is the Christian standard.

[@DavidPeel-fo9xv]

@@RealHorhay I thought the Bible was the Christian standard. Anyway, God bless

[@alexabplanalp4455]

I will say this, I have significantly more respect for Vocab than I do for Jeff Durbin. No strawmanning, no attacks on personal character, etc. Just a great back and forth conversation on the nature of God and theologies impact on salvation.

[@anichols2760]

I agree. Great conversation.

[@ItsSnagret]

I second this - I think his straw man digs at Joseph Smith were a bit lame, but much better than Durbin

[@UtahKent]

Jeff Durbin i$ a practioner of Prie$$$tcraft.

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

He said we believe Jesus sinned, I’d say that was a pretty big strawman. And that was not the only one.

[@crazyaboutcards]

​@alejandrovalenzuela377 yeah that was just nuts.

[@thebigdr3060]

Hugh Nibley answered this question succinctly in 1954. His series of lectures on KSL radio seventy years ago became the book “The World and the Prophets”, which details the theological positions of ancient Christians during Christ and Paul’s time, and the transition to the Neo-Platonic Schoolmen, Gnostics and Philosophers in subsequent eras once revelation ceased. A fascinating look from original sources. But it always circles back to the fundamental question “How do you define a Christian”. It is almost always a dogmatic response, usually relying on consensus of numbers for validity.

[@towardcivicliteracy]

Yep. Appeal to popularity or tradition.

[@SimonDaumMusic]

I would go as far as to say the simples description of a Christian is someone that does what he does out of charity.. There is no greater love than to give up your life for your friends, as Jesus taught, and those who love in such manner, know God, for God is love... Obviously there may be much more to it, but since God told Samuel that he looks deeply into the hearts of man, it seems to me that God actually does take into acount all our individual differences and backrounds, and judges accordingly, and with that I also feel that no one really is in a position to judge who is Christian and who is not... Paul said even the most devout Christian, working all the miracles, is worth nothing, withou charity, on the other hand the harlot Rahab was saved from destruction due to her doing something good.. so, I would say no one can be certain to claim Mormons will end up in hell, and to me, the alternative to be in heaven with some calvenistst that, at least partially, may rejoyce over the fact that they were right about Mormons and Babies ending up in hell, does not sound like a place where I wanna be at :)

[@lindamartinez7006]

@@SimonDaumMusicamen .

[@lindamartinez7006]

Do tell us about the story of Steven seeing God and Jesus on his right hand before he gets stoned .

[@lindamartinez7006]

@@SimonDaumMusicyes thank you . Give up your life for your friends . Thank you . This is what they were not doing . They were using their friends . Taking their money . Jesus even says I healed the sick raised the dead made the blind to see all for free . They lost their first love changing the gospel of Jesus Christ . Using people to build up churches to themselves . Paganism is their false teachings . Ha ha laugh on Joseph Smith had one wife her name was Emma Smith . You need to stop telling lies . What a liar he is . By their fruits you know them . Humm their fruits are delicious beautiful wonderful tastes good . This guy needs to crawl back under his rock . Making a fool out of himself . How you judge is how you are judged . He is just hilarious . They are the 666 . They worship a pagan idol God saying Trinity is correct . How sad they are .

[@daniallemmon5453]

I think Mormons are Christian. They believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ all men might be saved. They believe Jesus is God. Mormons just believe in Him a tich differently. I’m ex Mormon and I can still say with confidence that you guys believe in Christ because I did and still do lol

[@DaremoDaremo]

Yeah, and to be painfully clear, everyone is a Christian. We all (everyone born into this world) chose to follow Christ in premortality prior to the Creation.

[@daniallemmon5453]

@@DaremoDaremo According to Mormon doctrine.

[@DaremoDaremo]

@@daniallemmon5453 Well, technically, the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to embrace all truth. So, all truth = doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (We believe all things....)

[@MusicBlik]

@@DaremoDaremo Yes, and as another Latter-day Saint I agree with you, but in fairness to Daniel Lemmon here, non-Mormons DON'T agree with us. It's slightly blunt to not speak in such a way that acknowledges that fact.

[@daniallemmon5453]

@@DaremoDaremo If you say so man

[@CrackedCandy]

The mental gymnastics are difficult to follow with this guy. 36:00 i salute Jacob to be able to not laugh when he says we have continuing revelation through a book that was given 2k years ago. Everything we need is right here. What about Amos 3:7. Jesus is going to come back. You would think that he would reveal to his servants, the prophets, when that is. Who are his prophets?

[@CrackedCandy]

The thing I like about the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday saints is that it is plain. It is simple. It is straightforward. There is no mental gymnastics. Others theology is so complicated and convoluted they invent words to explain their position. And then, if you take the time to research these $5 words they come back and say no, you dont understand. Gatekeeping at its finest. God is our Father. Do we need a overcomplicted word for that? These theologians im sure have one. God is Love. He is our creator, he is perfect, he is kind, he is all powerful, he knows everything. But somehow they want to use these $5 words to gatekeep when the nature of God is simple and straightforwad. God is not a God of confusion. Anything that would is not of God.

[@darlenemartim9972]

Being Christian is personal. I would never question an individual that they are not Christian if they claim to be. It’s personal. I go to the church of Jesus Christ and have lots friends from all Christian faiths. Never have I questioned to doubt them as a Christian ever

[@Beastlango]

He as no room to talk, he is a Calvinist. The God he worships is more like Allah than the Judeo-Christian one. It’s crazy he doesn’t see that when he has played Muhammad and has does ministry to Muslims.

[@mr400meter]

Do you have any rebuttals to any texts that would explain the sovereignty of God over man with regards to salvation and mercy?

[@zionmama150]

God is sovereign over everything but chooses to not usurp our agency, though He has the power to. Therefore, because His character is such that to be the epitome of righteousness and truth, He cannot take away agency of man or He would cease to be righteous, and therefore cease to be God because God’s power comes from His righteousness.

[@zionmama150]

@@mr400meterin other words, God has given us FULL choice. We either choose to believe Him enough to obey Him, or we don’t. And we suffer the consequences of our sins when we don’t. But His righteousness is faithful to save us and extend mercy every time we learn our lesson and remember Him.

[@mr400meter]

@@zionmama150 What about Pharoah's agency in Exodus? Didn't God ultimately usurp the agency of Pharaoh?

[@chrishumphries7489]

@@mr400meterNope not all all. We do not believe God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (removing his agency), but that God knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart at God’s doings. See Exodus 7:3 JST. We also do not believe that God “repented” of what He had done, as is in the Old Testament. This also a mistranslation.

[@redplanet76]

I laughed out loud when he says to accurse Paul. Vocab, you may believe in sola scriptura but NOWHERE in scripture does it say that the text is comprehensive and complete. You're suggesting that EVERY morsel of doctrine is in the Bible and we just happen have it all? Absurd. And because you're so closed minded, you would curse PAUL?! haha. WHAT?!🤦So let me get this straight, Paul shows up in 2023 to you, "Vocab, there actually is a pre-mortal life... I said it back then but it didn't make it into the text you have today..." and you're going to tell him to take a hike? Come on, bro. This has to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard from an apologist.

[@DaremoDaremo]

@@ChristianRescue No, his logic is flawed. His logic is "BIBLE ONLY." None of the authors of any of the books (whether you use a 66 book version, 73, 80, 81, 84, 88, etc.) of any the Bible say anything about sola scriptura. It simply isn’t there. None of the authors of any of the books of the Bible even mention the Bible. And for good reason, it didn’t exist yet. But, they didn’t even say anything along the lines of, “After we all get killed off, close this puppy up and lock it down. That will be all humans ever get from God. The thing that will later be called the Bible will serve as authority. Boom. The end.” Nothing like that at all.

[@grneal26]

yep, this was the point where I tuned out. such an ignorant comment just because he didn't want to concede the logical point

[@DaremoDaremo]

@@ChristianRescue Yeah, but that isn't logical as there is no premise to suggest a reason to have faith in such an assertion as that. There are all manner of Bibles of various book counts and all manner of codices (5600 or so) with about 400,000 variations. All of which are just copies of copies of copies. No original sources. (Just putting our faith in a bunch of monks and scribes really.) And, more importantly, none of what is in the content of any of those codices deals with a compilation we refer now as the Bible or to canonization thereof. Further, nothing in any of that makes it even clear what scripture is. Sure, it seems fairly safe to assume that what someone with hopefully authority to do so jotted down as what they think God told them to be scripture, but beyond that, what qualifies as scripture? If the Song of Solomon is the bar, then there is a lot more scripture out there than anything in those 5600 codices.

[@brainhunter1000]

@@DaremoDaremolove that reference to Songs of Solomon. If that is scripture then I feel like I can claim that I’m a scripture writer.😂

[@redplanet76]

@@ChristianRescue I got to ask... why did you type "G-d" instead of God

[@ILikeFreedomYo]

Nowhere in the bible does it say the trinity let alone call it terms for salvation. On the other hand it literally gives a litmus test saying all men will know who his disciples are. John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Also famous LDS hymn called Love One Another.

[@anichols2760]

Millions of our converts came out of protestant Christianity, my family being one of them. Sola Scriptura is an invention of protestant Christianity. And Trinitarianism is a forced doctrine upon the existing Christians of the time by the non Christian roman government officials with an attempt to unify the divisions in Christian thought of that time. The converting influence upon the minds of converts of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the holy spirit. And the focus on Christ is central and foundational to our faith. If one is born into deep tradition and theological culture it can be difficult and scary to open ones heart to the possibility of the truths of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But as soon as one does so in faith they will have a converting experience with the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But if doubt is embraced then it will cloud out the effects of the holy spirit.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

And millions R leaving your counterfeit church everyday now!

[@anichols2760]

@@davidjanbaz7728 no David, that isn't true. In fact it's the opposite. No unhallowed hand will keep the church from progressing. I respect your beliefs. Why don't you respect ours?

[@BrendonKing]

@@anichols2760 yes yes the numbers the church now gives out less and less frequently are certainly in your favor /s

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@anichols2760 LOL, at your church propaganda that you swallow without even thinking about, as statistics R extremely easy to manipulate! It's a veil they have pulled over your eyes and you don't even want to Believe it.

[@ibman8327]

I know families leaving the lds church that must mean the church is not true

[@chelsey4529]

Bro seriously said that we believe that Jesus Christ lived a life of sin 💀

[@mahonri69]

Hey said a lot of nonsense.

[@mr400meter]

Well, according to OG Mormon apostles and prophets, he was a polygamist which is condemned in Jacob in the Book of Mormon. Mormon Jesus never raised up seed.

[@mycatwould]

@@mr400meterI think there is a lot of conjecture there. We know almost nothing of the first 30 years of Jesus’ life. Almost nothing is written about most of the apostles’ marital status, or if they practiced plural marriage or not. If it’s not written in the scriptures, or given by revelation to the prophet to be delivered as gospel to his people, then one must assume it is simply a theory, and nothing more.

[@anthonyterry2896]

@@mycatwouldexactly. Just like there are speculations that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, it’s just that - speculation. It holds no bearing on Latter Day Saint doctrine or theology and no bearing on our salvation. It always confuses me when people take these obscure things and treat them as official doctrine of the church.

[@junebelcourt-suhaka1434]

@@anthonyterry2896 One of the most foundational doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that the only way anyone can obtain the fulness of eternal life, or exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom, is to be married and sealed for time and all eternity to a member of the opposite sex BEFORE the resurrection. If Christ, who is our exemplar in all things, is indeed exalted in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom, he would have had to obey his own commandment and be sealed in eternal marriage to a woman PRIOR to his resurrection, because, as the Lord himself testified, their is no marrying or giving in marriage AFTER the resurrection into immortality. It’s an extreme doctrinal inconsistency to imagine that the Savior could obtain the fullness of exaltation without first being married and sealed for time and all eternity to a woman before his resurrection to eternal glory.

[@Thehaystack7999]

Christians are the best Sauls, and when their eyes are opened make the best Pauls.

[@BrendonKing]

So you acknowledge a distinction between Christians and Mormons.

[@Thehaystack7999]

@@BrendonKing the distinction between the saints in Jesus Christ’s latter-day church is the same distinction between the Jews and Christians right after Pentecost.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@Thehaystack7999 LOL, Mormons R the blind Pharasees leading others into the ditch. But like the Pharasees they think they have a self-righteousness Above everyone else: but Jesus called them white washed sepulchers only clean on the outside who actually perverted God's teachings by their traditions. No, Total Apostasy happened even if some local churches like the 7 in Revelation had problems that God was angry with and wanted the members to correct and get rid of the sinners doing those things if they don't repent. The churches Excommunicated heretics long before any Total Apostasy could have ever taken over.

[@DaGolfViking]

​@BrendonKing I'd say protestants, there are a lot that are Christians though, and I'd say there are a lot of Mormons that are Christians also.

[@suem6004]

@@Thehaystack7999Protestants are the Jews. They speak exactly as the Pharisees. They are fundamentalist and self righteous hypocrites as the Pharisees.

[@jonathanduran8669]

58:23 Ok, I think the biggest glaring example I would be interested to hear Vocab’s opinion on (regarding creating something that is metal cast) is when God commanded Moses to create a snake out of metal, raise it up and tell the people that if they look upon it they will be healed.

[@yellowhumpy14]

Yep. I had the same thought. Why would Moses claim Jehova told him to make a brass serpent to look upon for salvation from the serpents if he would also contradict himself saying "make thee no molten gods."?

[@IprevailXIV]

I actually made this same comment and deleted it since I saw yours 😂

[@mahonri69]

The serpent represent Jesus Christ, Satan counterfeit his

[@mahonri69]

The serpent represent Jesus Christ, Satan counterfeit his symbolism in the Garden of Eden. He knows this from the preexistence.

[@chemnitzfan654]

​@yellowhumpy14 The serpent on the pole wasn't a god. It was a physical means of salvation.

[@thetomschaeffer]

The fact that anyone attempts to define what a Christian is, is utterly ridiculous. If you seek, love, believe, and FOLLOW Jesus, and most importantly, not isolate others for their beliefs, then you are a Christian. Because here's the reality - The nature of GOD, Christ, and the Holy Spirit is incomprehensible. Nothing can be proven - the scriptures are not crystal clear and are interpreted differently by every denomination. Frankly, a Restoration of truth makes total sense. Either that or NOTHING is absolutely true and therefore we can believe what we want about the nature of God and Jesus assuming it helps spread peace and love into the world.

[@crazyaboutcards]

Great conversation. Great job Jacob. There's no way you'll ever convince me that God will send billions of His children to hell just because they never accepted the correct version of Jesus, according to some committee of people who agreed on some things centuries ago. That's not priesthood authority. May we never take for granted the Gift of the Holy Ghost which is conferred upon us through proper priesthood authority after entering into direct covenant with God. We can know truth and God will reveal it unto us through the Holy Ghost. So very grateful for this gift which helps us come to the true Christ and prepare for His return as we work to gather Israel, as He has commanded. The fruits speak volumes, even if we don't even need that extra confirmation. I appreciate people who are willing to have these conversations. Props to Vocab. He's a really good guy. I believe he will be saved even though I'm certain that many parts of his theology are incorrect. I appreciate his zeal and what he's doing to try to bring people to Christ. Hopefully he will realize that the LDS are happy with where we're at, and he can focus on teaching people who have never even heard of Christ. In his world, those people are in serious danger of hell. 😬 In the meantime, the LDS are willing to risk it... we're happily on the covenant path, and we know we worship the true Jesus, despite what these people may say. 😊

[@Twayne777]

God created everyone in his image Genesis 1:26…but not everyone is his child…you must be born again to become his child…..

[@bobwilkinson1217]

To our protestant friend: Let's go back to prior to the Council of Nicea some 400 plus years, and prior to the "Consensus" (not revelation) when various Bishops and leaders of church factions were ordered by the Pope to come to a consensus of the nature of God. First of all, God does not lead by consensus. Secondly, when Jesus was baptized by John, a "voice from Heaven (not from Jesus) said, "Behold, my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." And then the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a Dove (the third personage of the Godhead). If God is not separate personages or entities then His displays of 3 separate individuals is deceptive. You have to be a mental acrobat in order to twist this situation as "One Essence". This smacks of too much Greek Gods' influence in the definition of the Trinity. Then when Christ prayed that His Disciples would be "One" even as He and His Father are "One". The gospel is meant to be simply understood-- even as a child. With the Greek and Roman religions influence we see the mysticism in the Consensus Doctrine of the Trinity. The Godhead, being three distinct beings, is still One God-- in unity or operating as one. I have a really good evangelical friend who prayed with me, who did not tell me that I was praying to a different Jesus than he. That is the Christian spirit that should prevail even though we may see the nature of God differently. Don't we all look through a glass darkly but when He shall appear we shall see Him as He is. Until then we should all avoid contention, even over doctrine. To share and explain is different than the attempt to ostracize, demean, or diminish another's faith practices and beliefs. That is completely opposite of what the Lord prayed for "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." This prayer does not resemble the doctrine of the Trinity in any manner or form. There is no Greek mystic influence in this prayer and a child can understand from this prayer the simple separateness but oneness of the Father and the Son.

[@itsdutchintime1907]

The Godhead is beautiful.

[@ibman8327]

Man from reading your post I can tell you don't know church history or you are purposely lying, Do you know who Athanasius of Alexandria? When you say ordered by the pope I knew right away you are not a reliable source btw do you know when the trinity was first used and do you disagree with bom of there being one God

[@RealHorhay]

The Pope was not like the pope of today, its clear your knowledge of church history. The pope only started commanding things like today in the beginning of the 800s, coming to a head at the great schism between east and west. Dont be stupid please.

[@justinvharper1320]

It’s curious to me that Jacob described following the Commandments of Jesus Christ and keeping covenants will lead to salvation! but the other guy doesn’t even acknowledge it.

[@staxplease]

That's the BIG problem with the Sola Scriptura

[@bobmcconnel936]

Apologies Jacob! This dude drug you around. He is good at debating in how he asked questions that made you feel as though you are on defense, but you spent more time defending than making him explain his positions. Hope you have him back to press him on the creeds and how those do not press God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit into scripture.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Jacob did come off ignorant of the Bible: I agree with you: LOL 😆

[@RealHorhay]

LDS Members tend to study the Bible a whoooole lot less than Christians

[@ThoseOneGuysInc]

I think part of the difference would be that the church of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints believes that the people in the apostles day preaching a different Jesus won and that it was restored. Where Protestants would say that no we’ve had it right this whole time and that the LDS are preaching wrong.

[@MusicBlik]

These two men deeply disagree on so many points, but they obviously have a huge amount of mutual respect and camaraderie. What a great discussion - thank you for posting it.

[@VocabMalone]

Amen!

[@oceancoast92657]

Not sure it was that great of a conversation, not a huge amount of mutual respect coming from @VocabMalone .. Vocab seemed to dish out the typical anti-Mormon diatribes. For instance that Vocab says things like "Joseph Smith would steal my wife".. that's just a blatant disingenuous invective. It offered NOTHING of value to the converstation.

[@oceancoast92657]

@@VocabMalone Didn't see a lot of respect on your part Vocab.. You concluded your remarks with about some apologies for maybe offending LDS listeners.. However.. Isn't it written that Jesus said to treat others as you would want to be treated? And given your demonstration in the video of maligning the LDS faith and those who hold it with disingenuous distortions and invectives, like 'Joseph Smith would steal my wife".. "God having Sex etc... " it would seem you either invite the same malignments toward you and your beliefs in Christ, which would be odd for a believer in Christ to advocate and invite malignment of Jesus.. or you don't advocate that , in which case you're not following Jesus' admonishment in the first place.. which again undermines any claim you might profess that you're one of Christs. The point here is that respectful disagreement and discussion on actual issues is one thing.. Dishing out distortions, out of context citations and invectives that a clearly designed to create emotional aversions and malignment is just bearing false witness and is NOT found in scripture you claim to hold too.

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

@@oceancoast92657 well said. His double standards were on full display for everyone to see.

[@lizkt]

So true. Imagine what could be achieved if all discussions were like this one

[@miriamanderson2170]

It truly blows my mind that anyone would believe that a person could live an honest, productive life and emulate the characteristics of Christ and still go to hell because they don't believe in the "right" Jesus. That version of Jesus sounds very limited -- the Atonement was performed for all. What about people who have never had the chance to hear about Jesus? They get to burn in hell forever too?

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Nobody is burning. ( being tortured) in hell forever and nobody like Hitler, Stalin and Mao R getting second chances by accepting Your false Gospel because you were baptized 4 them. That isn't any kind of justice 4 their victims.

[@Metroid-rg9pn]

To be fair, Latter-day Saints have a similar theology. If you live the commandments but don't accept the ordinances it doesn't matter--you won't be exalted

[@magitekarms60]

@@Metroid-rg9pn yes that's true. Exaltation requires adherence to all Gospel covenants and their associated ordinances. But we DO believe in a type of universal salvation via the "Plan of Salvation" and the degrees of glory offered by the Atonement of Christ. The LDS ideation of "Hell" is wildly different from the Protestant one in general.

[@JohnLuft-v6r]

I probably won't do a very good job explaining this because I am self-aware enough know my limitations but this was a very interesting observation to me since I had the same thoughts years ago. When you say "live an honest, productive life" what standard of honest and productive do you mean? I think he was saying we are all equal and by that I mean we are all sinners and therefore condemned and in need of Jesus's atonement as you said. I think what he means by the "right" Jesus is what is meant when Jesus said that many will say "Lord, Lord will not enter the kingdom of Heaven . . ." in Matthew 7:21-23 which indicates that these people will claim to have DONE things in His name but He will say he never knew them. What I got from what he was saying is that if you diminish Jesus by saying he isn't sufficient and that anyone can DO something like emulate characteristics of Christ then that is a different Jesus. When you mentioned the question about people that never had a chance to hear about Jesus do you mean people like Abraham? He lived long before Christ but he was counted righteous because of his faith and what was in his heart which is the hard part about judgment since other people can't see what is in our heart but God can. I think Romans 2:12-16 really helped me with this because I always wondered about some group of isolated people who had no access to a Bible and I didn't think it was fair. God is fair and just and will judge their hearts which I find loving and merciful instead.

[@stevenhenderson9005]

Mormonism believes and teaches that the "salvation" Christians speak of, is a free gift given to all mankind ever born on earth even without faith in Jesus Christ, without repentance, without baptism, and without righteousness. In Mormonism, it was purely by the "GRACE" of Jesus Christ that all mankind are saved without anything on our part (NO WORKS)

[@RealHorhay]

But that is no salvation. Salvation is being in the presence of God Almighty, without that it is just Hell (The absence of God)

[@Metroid-rg9pn]

Awesome discussion. Vocab was great. If you talk again, I hope you'll push him more on Sola Scriptura and how the Biblical canon was formed (not only how it was formed by men, but also how Catholics have additional scripture).

[@anichols2760]

This is an excellent point. Research on sola Scriptura reveals it is man made possibly from Martin Luther who did embrace that way of thought. The bible as it is today was first put together by the Catholic church. The Catholic church actually has additional books in their Catholic bible. Clearly man, not prophets put together the bible in it's form. We absolutely need prophets and apostles. Relying solely on sola Scriptura is flawed thinking and has been from it's inception (14th century) which is 1200 years after Christs time and 1200 years without apostles and prophets. Clearly man was grasping in the dark during that time frame, trying to make sense of God.

[@ibman8327]

Sola scriptura is a doctrine that we Protestants hold scripture over tradition know the reformation and don’t misrepresent us. The lds church holds a false prophecy in D&C 87 clearly showing that Joseph Smith is a false prophet, clearly showing Mormons are in the dark and if they read the quad it’s obvious the bom doesn’t agree what d&c. What a mess of a religion

[@Thehaystack7999]

All this gatekeeping over whether we believe in Jesus. By their own definition and “their” own judgment, they do not know Him, and they will ask why and He will say “Ye never knew me.”

[@hackerj23]

56:30 I don’t find any reference in the scriptures about postmortem salvation. 1 Pet. 3:18-20 “[Jesus] went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey.”

[@BrendonKing]

A declaration of victory over death, the final enemy. There is no indication anywhere that post-mortem salvation is possible. In fact, Christ himself taught most exhaustively on the notion that this is the time to be reconciled, for the dead will be left to the dead. God is not a god of the dead, but of the living.

[@thepreacher5934]

@@BrendonKing King James Version 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

After watching this lunacy, I now understand why David Alexander lost his mind after 47 years as a protestant.

[@anichols2760]

59:16 Vocab says we have a Jesus that was a man who could sin. But we dont believe that. We believe he was sinless. So i think vocab has some misconceptions concerning our faith.

[@magitekarms60]

If anything, Vocabs point makes "our" Christ that much more of an exemplar to follow. By his logic, our Christ COULD have sinned but had so much love for the Father and so much spiritual discipline that He chose NOT to sin for the entirety of his mortal life despite experiencing all the temptations associated with fallen mortality. In all actuality I'd agree with Vocab and then turn right around and say that's what makes Jesus Christ the greatest being to have ever existed second only to the Father.

[@roberthaskins2220]

Was Jesus born to Heavenly Father first as a spirit being, meaning after Heavenly Father reached exaltation, or was Jesus born to Heavenly Father in Heavenly Father's mortal existence prior to Heavenly Father's exaltation? Is your answer universally held by all members of the LDS? Is there an official position regarding the question stated by LDS church authorities and confirmed ? It is likely that the majority of LDS members believe that Jesus was sinless in his time on earth recorded in the New Testament and Book of Mormon, but that doesn't say anything about his actions in some other mortal existence.

[@RealHorhay]

@@roberthaskins2220 This is a heresy. You are all Arians.

[@DaremoDaremo]

This guy doesn't understand that membership is more like being on a professional sports team. Father is the owner, Jesus is the GM, and the prophets/apostles are the coaching staff. So, what matters now, in terms in staying on the team is doing as instructed by the current coaching staff, not past ones. We aren't a static faith that worships old rulebooks, playbooks, dead coaches. Lolol. Yeah, the old stuff is good for reference, but it doesn't replace current authority.

[@benson3086]

Exactly. Because after all, why would God just stop working after he decided that all the books of the bible were in place. People who go on about saying "oh you can't add to the Bible" imo are narrow minded. Before the Bible there was nothing. Then Moses came along with the first 5 books of the Old Testament and everything was hunky-dory. Then when Moses died there was a new prophet. Joshua. Then what happened? The Bible got added to.

[@tansershinasi2932]

Sola Scriptura has to be the biggest and weakest argument they have. It's just common sense we would have no old testament after Moses and no new testament if they believed in sola Scriptura 35:51

[@Sayheybrother8]

The multiple contradictions in the scriptures the omission of the principle of sola scriptura within the Bible itself is hard to reconcile with a religion that is based on that principle.

[@tansershinasi2932]

@@ChristianRescue cool, I get you, but thats why it's a combination of the scriptures and common sense and what a prophets says...the guy literally said he would not listen to Paul if he was on the earth today because he has the scriptures...this is idolism of the bible...and again you have to deal with this, if sola Scriptura is what God intended we wouldn't have anymore books past moses

[@DaremoDaremo]

Heck, even better than that, if sola scriptura were a thing, God would have just dropped a book of doctrine/rulebook/playbook/etc in Adam and Eve's lap and said, "RTFM from this point forward. Adios muchachos and muchachas!!!"

[@tansershinasi2932]

@@DaremoDaremo exactly...its a big problem for these sola guys to believe, its a form of idol worship in its self. Because you become closed off. If christ appeared to you and directed you in a way that doesn't fit your interpretation then you'd just say it wasn't a vision it was the devil...😬

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@ChristianRescue unfortunately there’s quite a bit of evidence that has proven that even those who believe in sola scriptura can’t get on the same page. And the same book inspires many people to do what you’ve suggested is avoided when using sola scriptura

[@lizkt]

Notice the lds side had one agenda, to discuss and learn. The protestant obviously was here to condemn.

[@grneal26]

Jacob is usually smarter than this. I think he had an off day.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@TheFamilyLife6 actually not ! unless you're filtering the Bible through Mormonism .

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

@@TheFamilyLife6 big time. That’s why it was painful, Jacob didn’t correct him with his clearly erroneous assertions. He let him get away with so much that it really seemed like he wasn’t up to make his points and just let the other guy trample all over him.

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

@@davidjanbaz7728 show ONE verse that speaks of the consubstantial nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ? Just one.

[@grappling.enthusiast]

Its cause it was a discussion, not a debate. people tend to be more passive in discussions, had it been a debate, Jacob would have pressed him a bit harder on certain areas.

[@Thehaystack7999]

The Exodus teaches of the coming, the Jews denied Christ, the priests built idols and lost the opportunity for higher law, and they wandered and battled and they were granted a tabernacle, early Christianity had no temple but they had the influence of the Homy Ghost, and and a descendant of Ephraim leads to Jerusalem, promised land, for the temple to be built we see a pattern for Christ’s mortal ministry, the restoration, the second coming and and ultimately the millennial reign and sanctification of the Earth when it becomes celestial. If you dispute Joseph Smith, you would have disputed Jesus, Moses, Abraham, and Noah. It is the same pattern, but even some chosen people are as tares and will only see a field of tares and will not see the wheat.

[@KiwiHalo]

can we just have James White and Blake Ostler sit down for 2 hours, this will solve alot of the evangelical and LDS debates

[@mycatwould]

That would be a great show…and I’d love if the mic could drop within 2 hours.

[@patrioticwoody]

There was a debate done between James White and Daniel C. Peterson some years ago.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

James White isn't a spokesperson for Protestant Christianity: he's a Calvinist which is only a part of Protestant Christianity and William Lane Craig took his Calvinism apart in their debate on Molinism. It's much more accurate in understanding Predestination and Free will ( Mormon agency) . Than Calvin's irresistible Grace and Limited Atonement : which many Protestants don't believe as I do . I can only believe in 3 points out of the 5 points of Calvinism. Which is why I'm NOT a Calvinist.

[@AndrewMechamIdaho]

YoU HaVE thE wRonG JeEzUS. Lame argument.

[@jGeothro]

TLDW(atch) - Are Christian? - No. Bible say ___. - We disagree what Bible say. ------------------------ (You should still watch it though. Great discussion!)

[@magitekarms60]

bingo!

[@DennisMaher-v4i]

The Yeshua of the Bible is not the Christ of Mormonism . Yeshua taught the God of Mormonism Can Not save . That might concern any thinking person caught in that cult .

[@davidmbolden]

Can I ask our "Protestant Christian" friend to answer the same question in reverse? e.g. "If I can demonstrate that YOUR version of Jesus Christ is flawed, are you by proxy no longer a 'Christian'?" I suspect he'd refuse to answer that question. I'm also certain that most of us on the LDS side are more than willing to grant that title to someone who believes the fallacy of Trinity as correct doctrine. This is a reflection of an intolerance that is widespread among evangelicals which we do not share - and I am certain Jesus Christ would not unite with an ideology which rejected anyone who honestly sought Him out, but was mistaken on one point of doctrine. It is equally perplexing that they can still call themselves tolerant and accepting while rejecting and refusing to tolerate others simply because they disagree with them. Moreover, they have the arrogance to assert that we are not going to enter God's kingdom unless we think exactly like they do.

[@elainekoeppel7250]

David Alexander should be debating the evangelist because David knows the Bible and can quote scripture and verse to prove the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be in the Bible

[@andreatimmers1720]

No he doesn't. He does ok with scripts on his podcast. It's obvious he is reading text. I watched one debate he was one and he was very uncomfortable. Muddled through it is the best I can say. I guarantee he will NEVER debate anyone again

[@thepreacher5934]

@@andreatimmers1720 You must be one of them durbin followers

[@andreatimmers1720]

@@thepreacher5934 I am not a calvanist. I respect Pastor Durbin. The only time I see the Mormon church in the news is when they are being arrested. Sick

[@thepreacher5934]

@@andreatimmers1720 Durbin is reprobate Pastor Anderson vs Jeff Durbin - kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2HVqZaChdmojdEsi=ssetmtdIEa5ZZzav

[@BornTheDragon]

It's sad to me that these people that don't yet know Christ and have a perfect knowledge of Him claim to know perfectly that someone else isn't worshipping the real Christ. Until you know God perfectly don't tell people they aren't Christian.

[@thenexus1789]

Jacob, why do you premiere these videos in the middle of the night? I think you may have a bigger audience during the day......unless of course, your YT analytics say your audience is mostly on YT at that time.

[@DaremoDaremo]

Lolol. By this guys logic, he is the only Christian. That is, every person has a different perception of Christ. No two Christians on the planet (around 2 to 3 billion adherents) perfectly understand Christ exactly the same. Therefore, no one is a Christian like this guy, therefore, if he asserts that he is a Christian, then he is the only one, and everyone else is not. Anyhow, technically, since we all (everyone that has been born into and will be born into this world) chose to follow Jesus prior to coming into this world, we are all Christians regardless of our current belief paradigm.

[@tansershinasi2932]

57:58 boom! 😂

[@rfloster]

37:45 So according flat cap, Hebrews 1 says no more prophets Jesus himself tells us: by their fruits ye shall know them, shouldn’t he have said… “no more after me”

[@MRRANDOMZ11]

Yes we are the only church to use the saviours full name The church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints Or anciently known as the church of the firstborn Plus we believe in the entire Bible we don't just cherry pick what we want we believe in modern revelation also The Trinity God complex was made theogology in 1600s and from the nicean creed it states that God the father has not flesh has not passions that God is a invicible being Who was God when Christ was in the womb No thx I take my faith any day because it's practical it makes sense with all the logic that I have it fits in to my understanding My faith I know God is my heavenly father that he has a body of flesh and bones that he has all passions that he has a character a righteous and holy being the father of Christ Elohim Christ is my saviour he came to die for me for my sins my shame he made the way for me to return back to precence of my father to live eternal life in his kingdom Thank God for the holy Ghost without it we all would we lost to man made doctrines and myths

[@RealHorhay]

bro has never heard of the church of christ So ig i can teach whatever I want but as long as I put 'Jesus Christ' in the name ill be the true church, got it.

[@SB-pl8fc]

8 years in as a convert to LDS and still in. Jesus did not change when I joined the church. The different Jesus/ God argument is so dumb. LDS is just another denomination.

[@justjamie7577]

Dare I say the Nicene Creed created a different Jesus.

[@RealHorhay]

Cant prove it though lol

[@tylerrickertsen4197]

Jacob I think you missed a valuable opportunity to express the connection between Jesus Christ and Jehovah. That is why Christ expressed heavily that if they truly believe in the God of the Old Testament than they ought to believe in Him. And to answer the question asked what part did Jesus play in the time of David. Jehovah has always been the authority because of the role He would latter play as the messiah in the flesh.

[@atravismoore]

Actually a pretty great conversation. Vocab (sp?) seems sincere and respectful.

[@mr.peachychandler4470]

@@ChristianRescue Do you not see that Jacob has rehearsed points in all of his debates that he regularly steers the conversation back to?

[@BrendonKing]

@@mr.peachychandler4470 That's typically how debates go.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@ChristianRescue Mormons R very weak on the Bible and what it actually says outside of your Mormonism filter that all your interpretations R made through !

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@mr.peachychandler4470 Mormons have learned that technique when they were Missionaries in talking with many people and the techniques in their training manual that have been printed out as responses.

[@mr.peachychandler4470]

@@BrendonKing Yep, but if Jacob wants to pretend that he’s an empathetic servant of Christ he probably ought to do more listening and reflecting than regurgitating talking points.

[@gbengoosewuru4139]

2 Corinthians 11: 16-33 If those are Joseph's actual words, Joseph was boasting like Paul was. Will evangelical lay the say claim on Paul as they do Jospeh? I say "If" because that quote is a summary of what Joseph may have said. Even if he did, he was boasting of the dedication of the members that stayed firm in their faith.

[@Castle1nth3sky]

I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I believe in Jesus Christ. If you believe in him, that would make you a Christians means Jesus Christ.

[@DougWarner25]

You don’t believe in the real Jesus, the Creator of EVERYTHING (including Lucifer). Repent and believe the Gospel

[@Castle1nth3sky]

@@DougWarner25 I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Therefore I believe in the real Jesus Christ. The one in the Bible the Lord who sacrificed himself for me and you. I know he created the earth under Heavenly Father's direction.

[@anichols2760]

Naomi, I am also a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And yes, we are Christian and Christ is at the foundation and is central to our faith and worship and we spend a great deal of time trying to mould our character after him. We want to become like him by learning his characteristics and developing his attributes.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@Castle1nth3sky Names mean nothing if they R counterfeit as yours is ! The Father created the Heavens and Earth through his Son: both R YHWH in Genesis 19:24. This is why Jesus is the visible YHWH in the Old Testament and NOT a separate god like Mormons believe Their Two Powers in Heaven Israelite theology is why the trinity is correct and not The trithesism( three gods of one purpose ) of Mormonism .

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@anichols2760 U all telling Christians ✝️ we don't have The true Gospel of Jesus Christ is JUST AS OFFENSIVE as what we say to U all. You blind to your own blindness of the TRUE Gospel.

[@samuelmcdaniel4499]

Haha Protestants are funny you give them verses that prove our religion to be legit and they always say we interpret wrong and the Protestant guy said he wouldn’t listen to the words of Paul An ORDAINED APOSTLE OF GOD!

[@nathanshaw6303]

In these conversations, it is always needed to define The Gospel.

[@shireecox122]

Guess what, dark bearded man? Not you, or anyone else gets to tell me, or anyone else, that my “Jesus” is the wrong Jesus. How is that at all, in any way, Biblical? Of course, I realize, the Bible speaks of false christs and false prophets. Yes, and those are known by their “works” or rather their lack of good works among the children of men. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Or by their “works” (faith, hope, charity…) ye shall know them. And we will be judged by the intents of our hearts as well. Christ, Himself, was one who acted. He was all powerful, and could have just sat on a royal throne giving orders. And yet He did just the opposite of that. He acted! He walked, talked, taught, loved, healed, helped, lifted up the down trodden, and on and on. Everything He did was an action. And HE is the Jesus Christ that I follow, no matter what people like you say. Thank you very much.

[@pigetstuck]

a wonderful conversation (you both made some good points)

[@zobewan9347]

I’m just a simple guy. Ok, 2 things. 1. Didn’t Christ progress? Rev 3:21, 5:6-12ish. 2. Aren’t the Father and Son mentioned as two separate beings? Rev 5:13

[@paulblack1799]

Wrong question, Jacob. ARE CHRISTIANS MORMONS is the right question! Look up the 1974 Truman Madsen article by that name, update it and address it. It's about LDS doctrines and views 'christians' have accepted (or think they invented on their own) since Brother Joseph's day.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Easy: People who don't believe in the Trinitarian Godhead : R definitely NOT a Christian.

[@paulblack1799]

@@davidjanbaz7728 Easier: People who believe The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason but is understood only through faith and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian creed which states that we worship one God in trinity and trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance, that we are compelled by the Christian truth to confess that each distinct person is God and Lord, and that the deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is One, equal in glory and coequal in majesty, are believing stuff mandated by an unbaptized sun worshipper.

[@ryanreynolds5536]

Do Protestants believe Catholics are going to heaven because Catholics also believe in the triune god?

[@grappling.enthusiast]

i asked many and they said no, famous anti mormon aaran shawolf or sum forgot his name even said a serial killer who accepts jesus right before they die goes to heaven but mother teresa is going to hell. they have interesting perspectives on catholicism.

[@thekolobsociety]

I wish Vocab’s god would regenerate me so I can be saved. I guess he predestined me to be a Mormon and burn in hell.

[@valeried7210]

You sometimes get what you wish for. 🙂

[@mr400meter]

Maybe He will in His good timing. 😇

[@DaremoDaremo]

Lolol. The thing is. If we walked up to them and said, okay, tell me what to do to be saved according to your beliefs, what would they tell you? Vocab: "Believe in Christ" Me: "Okay, done. I believe in Christ. Anything else? No works, right?" Vocab: "You are good to go bro!! Jesus has you in his hands now. Nothing can take you from Him again." Me: "Awesome, I am going to go be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now" Vocab: "Wait, don't get deceived by another gospel." Me: "But I thought you said I was good to go and in Jesus's hands now?" Lolololol

[@GwPoKo]

lol Vocabs god has been put in such a tiny box that he can only save a few thousand people

[@thekolobsociety]

@@mr400meter And if he doesn't? I'm doomed to be tortured in hell in no chance of eternal salvation? Why would you worship such a being? Does your god send babies to hell?

[@Motlatsi]

The followers of Jesus were first called Christians in Antioch, they had a base/ Headquarters in Jerusalem from which the Apostles sent people on their missions to Judaea, Galilee etc. These people were brought in the Church through Baptism, then hands laid on for the gift of the Holy Ghost, Paul included was added to the Church the same way. Peter was the leader receiving revelation for the Church and the whole world. The Church was now growing throughout to even the Gentiles but Jerusalem was the base. When people refer to themselves as Christians do they have this very same establishment in place or everybody is just doing their own thing and the belief in Christ qualifies them Christians? What I read in the Bible, that order I find nowhere but in 1 Church. So who really are Christians? I'm glad the guest refers to "some other Gospel" which prompts yhe question.."the gospel he (guest) teaches is from where & who sent him? ..and if sent by someone, who sent that someone? God is a being of order.

[@JohnLuft-v6r]

Wow, I don't think I have ever seen such an incredible display of gentleness and respect. Truly an amazing conversation with respect to truth. Thanks for having the guts to post this and although this is probably wishful thinking, you should have Vocab back regularly since these are incredibly important conversations to those with a discerning mind. Phenomenal!!!!

[@oceancoast92657]

The gentleness and respect was primarily on the side of Jacob. Vocab seemed to dish out the usual baseless anti -Mormon tripe and invectives where ever he could. Although he was more restrained that someone like Jeff Durbin, it still left much to be desired. Statements like "Joseph Smith would steal my wife".. or "God had sex in heaven" etc. Add no value to the discussion or topic at all and instead was a disingenuous attempt to inject salacious invective to invoke negative feelings toward the LDS faith.

[@JohnLuft-v6r]

@@oceancoast92657 LOL great example.

[@rulonwalker8938]

I don't see that Vocab has any respect for the others side. He does nothing but tear down and disrespect the belief of a people who love Jesus.

[@D-Flin]

Hebrews 1 "1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds" By using this scripture to argue no more prophets then we should ignore anything said by an apostle. Oh wait, this is Paul writing, not Jesus, so by that logic we can just ignore this very scripture. If Jesus said that, then sure he'd have a good argument. But when this is being spoken by a prophet after Jesus's death and resurrection, it makes it hard to trust that this is the correct interpretation.

[@SimonDaumMusic]

To me, God is like a beautiful song. It posesses the power to divinely touch people from all nations, all backrounds, all religions, all skin colours, as well as people of any age, any race or any health status, all alike. One may feel inspired by it to dance, another one to write a book, another one to paint a pircture, another one to sing along, another one to stand still in awe. No matter how big the differences between the people, no matter how different the indvidual outcome, everyone has been divinely touched by truth, everyone has been edified and uplifted, has become one with God. The moment certain people start coming along claiming that their individual outcome of having been touched by the divine is the "only true" way, and everyone elses outcome is of the devil, even if the fruits are obvious, has a very limited view of God. If God actually were the way some believe in, meaning God created and treated people unequaly, unjustly only to glorify himself in his own justice by sending people to hell like that, then I am certain heaven actually would be hell itself. Imagine all these people in hell rejoycing over Gods justice for predetermining people to suffer in that manner, not seeing that their understanding of God is one of the most limited ones, because it would view God as someone that would not want everyone to be saved, which is a clear contradiction to what we read in 1 Tim 2:1-6 "That God wants everyone to be saved and understand the truth fully" Music portrayes so well the power of the Spirit, in contrast to looking at things from the law and the letter alone... I would put it this way: "Though you get all doctrine right, win every argument, have memorized the Bible, are well versed to send Mormons to hell, but have not charity, it is worth nothing"... So, our intentions and backrounds do matter, and I am certain that one day many of us will be surprised about who will go where in the heavenly realms. I am confident that God lives up to his own teachings, being the most holy, most just and most forgiving being.. Just think about Christ even asking the Father to forgive those that killed him, for they know not what they do.. Or how the harlot Rahab got saved from destruction by her faith and works.. But I get it, Mormons are simply worse than that, and even if they had charity, hell awaits :)

[@Kaydubbbb]

Moses did make an engraven image that represented Jehovah . I really like the point that if Gods authorized servant made the engraven image it would be the right thing to do. Moses, not Aaron. When the people were being bitten by poisonous snakes, it was right to put an image of the snake up on the staff to heal them.

[@mrsjonse]

Jacob... I think maybe you are missing what your guest is saying. It is not about living good lives. Your guest is saying that the "wrong Jesus" can't save you from sin. The people who go to hell--regardless of how GOOD their lives were--are sinners who remain sinners, and are therefore worthy of hell... because they did not believe in and cry out to "the right Jesus" for salvation. He is saying that we--Latter-day Saints... cry out to the "wrong Jesus" for salvation and therefore remain sinners. He is saying that our "wrong Jesus" has no more power to save than the "false priests" that Elijah was dealing with. Your guest is saying that it has nothing to do with good works. It has everything to do with the "right Jesus"... and only the "right Jesus" will then bring forth good works--or "sin free works" in us. Without the "right Jesus" we can never bring forth good works or "sin free works"... and we are just kidding ourselves if we think we can. He is saying that all the GOOD that anyone thinks they do is not GOOD in God's eyes... unless it is the "good works/sin free works" brought forth by Christ in you AFTER your have cried out to the "right Jesus" for salvation. Your guest is saying that... "so called" good works... without the "right Jesus"... is just a "form of godliness... but it denies the power thereof"... and is therefore SIN and worthy of hell. Your guest is saying that his "Christian" theology and the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are, in essence, on two completely different planets... and that his planet is going to heaven... and your planet (the sinner planet)... which includes everyone with the "wrong Jesus", Allah, Buddah, Science, Philosophy, etc... is going to hell. It is exactly what Pres. Oaks spoke about in April 2022. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/51oaks?lang=eng

[@lizkt]

I don't agree, the proclamations are scripture. They are even printed in the scriptures now. When the prophet speaks in official compacity it is revelation from God. I would put them above the psalms because the current prophet is more revelant than past ones.

[@dwRS1]

Simple. Vocab is just misguided. He doesn't understand the Trinity. There is only one Jesus Christ. The church of Jesus Christ is not based on the Bible, it is based on what the Bible is based on. Revelation through prophets.

[@RealHorhay]

...Dawg you think the trinity is 3 Jesus'?

[@S7ZEE]

I love the desire by Protestants to put Jesus in a box that he is limited to X.

[@RealHorhay]

God himself cannot do certain things because of his nature and he tells it to us. You are leaning too far in the other direction. If God cannot be defined and is always shifting then that directly goes against what is written down to us.

[@jonjensen6745]

Trinitarians - “You can’t add or take away from the Bible! You believe in the wrong Jesus!” Latter-day Saints - “We believe in the Jesus of the Old and New Testaments. He is the author and finisher of our faith and our salvation.” Trinitarians- “…but the Nicaean Creed says…..”

[@CryptoCPA]

🎯. The very definition of ‘the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.’

[@igoldenknight2169]

So… because I believe Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God… I go to Hell? Ok… then…

[@tjedwards4254]

"They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me"

[@mr.peachychandler4470]

I have the same thought listening to Jacob talk.

[@BrendonKing]

@@mr.peachychandler4470Jacob believes in a sort of Mormon-ese. It’s irritating to watch.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@BrendonKing He has alot of extra knowledge[ outside of the typical fundamentalist Mormon ] that he trys to fit into his Mormonism: but not wanting go so far progressive like Dan M. who is indoctrinated by his liberal religious studies program or ex Mormons who have left Mormonism.

[@laurabeauchamp1215]

Who made this guy the Gospel Sheriff?

[@SplinkyWonderful]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most biblical church on the face of the earth.

[@ibman8327]

hey man what a funny joke🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@daMillenialTrucker]

And I have 6 inch toes

[@NKDV76]

The first couple of pages in the book of mormon proves you wrong lol you guys need to take the word " biblical" and " Christian" out of your vocabulary =)

[@bmitchmd]

John 3:16 says that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. It doesn't say "he who believeth in the specific definition of Jesus we have is saved." We believe in the Jesus who was the only begotten of the Father, the Jesus who was born of Mary, the Jesus who was martyred and who gave his life that we may repent and be forgiven of our sins. I suspect that is the same Jesus that the evangelicals believe in (having been one). All the other detail is just splitting hairs and used to unrighteously judge. Here is an example. Two people can believe in Abraham Lincoln, hold him up as being one of our best presidents and honor him for what he did but may undersrand differently where he was born or how he treated his family. That doesn't mean that one person doesn't honor the correct person, just that they understand some details of his life. Stop the insanity!

[@davidjanbaz7728]

LOL 😆 That's one verse : U R taking outta context from the rest of the Bible.

[@bmitchmd]

@davidjanbaz7728 false. Go on judging though.

[@ibman8327]

Good job Vocab

[@thepreacher5934]

5 points of Calvinism Refuted - kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJTCkJ-kZtKplaMsi=UCKQCXc60p3KWt9T

[@natedog1220]

Great opinions. Your Christ is not my Christ therefore you are not Christian. love the logic

[@AlbertJLouie]

Just because you use similar Christian terms like God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and even quote from the Bible. Satan himself quoted from the Scriptures (Matthew 4:1-11). But similar Christian terms and quoting from the Bible don't make you a Christian. Knowing the "true identity" of Jesus Christ (John 14:6) in a world full of false christs and false prophets. MATTHEW 24:23-24 "Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect..." Mormons teach and believe that their jesus is the brother of Satan, which contradicts what God says in His Bible that Jesus is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity. So Mormons, which Jesus do you believe in? A. Your jesus of the Book of Mormon, who is the brother of Satan. OR B. The Jesus of the Bible, who is God the Son 2nd person of the Trinity. So are Mormons Christian? Answer: No

[@AlbertJLouie]

@@wes2176 No.. God gives us all the right to question anyone/church claiming to be of God. Let's hear what God Himself says about this in: I JOHN 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world..."

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

@@AlbertJLouie So what your saying is God gave the Jews the right to question Jesus, claiming to be the Son of God, spit in his face, and reject his followers and Church, and kill him for His beliefs. Yeah, your rights are actually very wrong. You don't question to learn, you question to condemn, that is what makes you in the camp of those who killed Jesus, not believers in Him.

[@zionmama150]

Only according to your definition and interpretation.

[@mmoore3743]

You are incorrect. The LDS church does NOT teach they are brothers. In December 2007 the Church issued the following press release on this issue: Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel. As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind. [1]

[@redplanet76]

Are angels called the sons of God? Are fallen angels called the sons of God? Are believers of Jesus called the sons of God? Is Jesus called the Son of God?

[@ignaciodelgado889]

14:47 That is a LOT of assumptions about what we believe in. Saying that Jesus was a man and saying that he had sin are two different things. Jesus was a man without sin. Also we do believe that Jesus was God before being born of Mary, we believe he was the Jehova of the Old Testament. So this guy doesn't even understand our beliefs

[@SethKellerArt]

It's hilarious to watch Vocab struggle to view anything from another person's perspective. 😅

[@WellandJoyceArtist]

If vocab cant find posthumous salvation and baptism in the Bible hes not reading it lmao

[@lisatreelove9278]

Can you tell me where it is?

[@WellandJoyceArtist]

@@lisatreelove9278 1 Peter 4:6 the gospel is preached to the dead. If the dead cannot be saved then preaching the gospel to them is pointless. 1 Corinthians 15:29 - The dead were being baptised by early Christians, which Paul never corrects but justifies. These two passages are the only two mentions in the scripture as to whether the dead can be saved or not. And both imply that they can. You have to try in order to read these verses a certain way in order to understand them within a worldview of the dead being unsavable and you have to be very disingenuous to claim that these verses don't exist.

[@BrianTerrill]

38:00 he quotes Hebrews who we suppose was written by Paul and starts thumping Joseph Smith as if the last word came from Jesus even though Jesus wasn't the one who even said that. Pau)lso didn't meet the qualifications of Acts chapter 1. He wasn't with them from the baptism of John.

[@ProdigalSonMatt]

We are Christian, evangelicals are creedists.

[@chrisblanc663]

At about 50 minutes Jacob mentions that Jesus said “by their fruits ye shall know them” and “by this will all men know you are my disciples, that ye have love one for another” and God guests responds that “sounds nice, but I don’t know where in scripture you get that from.”… I see way more biblical evidence that to love God and man is the indicator of being a Christian, more so then the trinitarian or Nicene creeds as indicators of being Christian. Also at 58 minutes talking about the golden calf. The guest is surprised when Jacob said that IF God had told the Israelites to make a golden calf that it would have been the right thing to do. I find it funny that his guest doesn’t recognize that God DID command them to build the arc of the covenant a few chapters later to house His commandments and literally lead the way for the Israelites travels for 40 years. It isn’t the golden calf that is wrong, but the attributing to the golden calf their salvation, rather then to God.

[@WestLight-l3u]

Exactly! Amen.

[@stevenhenderson9005]

WE DO BELIEVE IN A DIFFERENT JESUS THEN OTHER CHRISTIANS AND PRESIDENT HINKLEY TALKED ABOUT IT.