Are Modern Cartridges Really Better?

[@hamblin113]

My adult daughters first elk hunt she glassed up 7 elk, closest was 435 yards, she glassed them for the longest time, should we shoot? She had been out of country for a couple years, and she had limited recent practice, but only out to 200 yards. The decision was made not to take the shot, tried to get closer but elk were spooked. The good news was a few days later were able to get within 180 yards and she made a clean shot. It was the right decision and were best with a great first elk hunt.

[@jaydunbar7538]

Absolutely, one must be realistic about our own limitations and that can certainly change year to year. I know when I was younger and shooting regularly I wouldn’t have hesitated on a 300 yard shot with peep sights, if I went hunting tomorrow I’d be glad I’ve got a 7mag to bring out so 300 is in point blank range lol

[@coldandaloof7166]

Good on you both for waiting. Maybe I am missing something as I have never hunted out west and can't see anything over 200 yds where I hunt if I'm lucky, but if you can see the elk, and they are too far, why not stalk them and cut the distance down? Not just slinging lead at 400 plus yards anyway which sounds quite iffy to me even with good ballistics. Granted my experience with rifles is limited to straightwalled and muzzleloaders but man 400 yds is over a quarter mile!

[@locarnese5598]

And that's how you hunt. Good story.

[@jmfa57]

God bless you both, great story, honorable ethics, WONDERFUL ending! Hope you're enjoying the meat, elk is delightful!

[@ronaldroehrick4872]

Woodmanship and ethics should be priority one that's why they call it hunting. This long-range shooting has resulted in a lot of wounded game. Anything longer than 400 yards is too risky and too many things can go wrong and our game is too precious to waste. It's just one opinion.

[@robertcarey3383]

500 yards might be 450 yards past where 1/2 the people could hit their target.

[@malachiwhite356]

It is the right opinion.

[@jerrymartin5100]

300 yards is a good poke for the average hunter, I've hunted for 50 years, and the farthest shot I've ever taken and killed a deer was 275 yards, I hunt the mountains and the flat lands of Va, long range shooting at game is not truly hunting.

[@jaydunbar7538]

Everyone has a different “ethical” distance, I know plenty of people who have never shot more then 100 yards in their life and they only shoot that far at the range, and I know others who regularly drop deer out to 300 with an AR15 in 5.56. The only determination of a particular persons ethical range is how far you want to practice sufficiently to be effective, the farther the range the more practice will be required to be proficient. The key to any shot is being proficient at the type of shot taken, know what your good at.

[@jaybailleaux630]

We do not want to use too broad a brush to condem those that can shoot game at long range. It takes specialized equipment and training for reliable success at taking game at long range. Some hunters can do it and most can't. Ask a military trained sniper or competitive high power shooter. We all have or limitations on how far we can reliably take game. I have helped track many wounded deer shot at less than a 100yds.

[@JBASH2011]

Hunting and Shooting are two different things. I gave up gun hunting around 1990 for Archery, but in recent years an older me has been getting back into rifle shooting. My attitude has totally changed- I've been through the "capitalize on every opportunity" phase with archery gear and firearms- now, if I can't get pretty close, the animal walks, and it's just not my day. I'd rather walk that power line with a .50 cal hawken rifle, round balls and open sights than a 30-06 and complicated scope setup. I won't say anyone else is having "badwrongfun" doing it that way, just HOW I hunt is more important than killing things.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Good attitude, Jeff.

[@johnpittinger1545]

Yeah Jeff I agree it’s not the kill, it’s the hunt

[@FredHenry1850]

"You can buy technology, but you can't buy woodsmanship" (Spomer, 2022).

[@dr.froghopper6711]

A quote for the masses!

[@WillyK51]

Not yet, but some day soon technology might outshoot a fine rifleman/woman

[@graynotescartridgebox]

Kind of irrelevant statement.

[@williamgaines9784]

@@WillyK51 If you remove the human element, it will no longer be "sport".

[@WillyK51]

@@williamgaines9784 Just kidding, not likely to buy something like that any time soon, maybe my grandson, and guess the military will get it first

[@craigschaefer8764]

Without taking a side, let me make a case for short range hunting. My guide and I spotted the bull about 2 miles out in Newfoundland. We stalked to 100 yards, when he saw us, and started for us, protecting his cows. At 50 yards, he paced back and forth, eyes bulging out of his head. He was so majestic, I almost didn’t want to shoot him. But I didn’t want to get trampled either! It was one of the most thrilling hunts I’ve ever had.

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Awesome.....Shoe🇺🇸

[@mikemellon80]

How is it possible that Ron doesn’t have over a million subscribers

[@graynotescartridgebox]

Nobody cares about hunting.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Mike, I love the way you're thinking! Spread the word. (Honestly, I suspect, given today's social media environment, my content isn't sensational enough for "the masses." I need to shoot TV screens and Cadillacs, explode watermelons or set something afire.)

[@whiteyfisk9769]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors in a society built on misinformation, the truth is often avoided by those willingly blinded.

[@BB_46]

30 06 is fine for freezer filling as long as your not lazy enough to walk closer to your game. Out west in Az been successful for 40+ years, and yes my freezer is full right now. Great video 👍

[@hardball107]

I've been reloading for over 50 years and one of the things that always knawed at me was why someone would design a cartridge with so much of the bullet in the case or in the powder column. The newer cartridges solve that to a point, they are more efficient, buck the wind better and IMHO are inherently more accurate, I love reaching out with them at the range. I shot National Match High Power for almost 30 years and I understand the challenges of shooting at extended range but hunting at distances over your 1/4 mile limit is really pushing it and at best questionable. You talked at length about BC and and bullet trajectory, great. But that's not the problem, it's learning to read the wind. Sure, the longer bullets have less deflection but they are still pushed around at range. You can guess and hope to hit that 6" kill zone at 500 yards or over but it's still a crap shoot for 95% of the people out in the fields, especially those that spend stupid money for a rifle with a 25 power scope and a over bore cartridge that maybe shoot a box of ammo a year. It's a recipe for disaster and hardly hunting. Personally I'll stick with my 270W and a 250 yard or so limit.

[@Blueknight1960]

Off topic but, what most people call hunting, I call sit and waiting. I call it that because (deer hunting) all you're doing is sitting in a tree stand or in a blind waiting for a deer to pass by.

[@hardball107]

@@Blueknight1960 So true. I have my 2 rifles for hunting. Woods, a Ruger American Ranch in 450 Bushmaster and for the farm hedge rows a Savage Axis in 270 Win. Most shots are 50-250 yards. That's why they call it hunting and not shooting. For shooting I have a Savage 12FV in 6.5 Creedmoor, 26" bull barrel with a Vortex 6x25 Tactical that holds 3/8" - 5 shot groups with my handloads at 100 yards with a 300 yard zero. (shooting & pest control)

[@oscarbear7498]

​@@Blueknight1960hahaha, true. Human nature to seek comfort, until it remove all the challenge. Like people who go camping in a fully loaded RV.

[@adamlong54]

Hell your black powder firearms are very accurate and very reliable. Being Native American Dad always said if you can't get within 25 yards of the animal your Not Hunting Right.

[@daneboro6847]

I concur, I'm a bow hunter, I see all these young guys nowadays taking 75 to 100 yard shots, I've taken all my elk with a bow under 20 yards ethical heart shots and they never go too fare.

[@kesleycottrell1416]

I'm a Pennsylvanian, we have a flintlock muzzleloader only deer season. It's my favorite time to hunt. I limit myself to 50 yards. The season starts the day after Christmas and is over a month long.

[@adamlong54]

@@daneboro6847 when hunting in Montana I was out hunting and the deer walked right up to me bewildered as to what in the hell is that probably never seen a human before. I didn't take the shot I just giggled and let it pass . Could have hand fed it it was that close LMAO when your at peace and harmony with nature it's amazing how close you can get to animals right after that I sat down on a snow covered log and a Martin or mink came up under the snow and popped up about 5 ft from me and started talking to me it was a great day in the woods. Later we took a big fat Doe less than 50 yards of the cabin. Nice easy peasy after being up atop the mountain hunting elk.

[@adamlong54]

@@kesleycottrell1416 people have no clue how accurate a black powder firearm is. 50 yards is just less of a walk in the snow 👍

[@travisstorbakken1737]

I'm pretty interested in the 8.6 blackout... 1/3 twist rate.

[@DanielBoone337]

Great video guys... I routinely shoot at distance. I have a 1000 yard range on my property but I still won't take a shot on a game animal past 400ish yards... I feel like I'm taking the hunting out of the hunt past that distance. I enjoy the time in field and the challenge of trying to out smart an animal on it's home turf that's why most of my shots have been under 300 yards. I've said it before and I'll say it again... this long range hunting trend is taking hunting in the wrong direction and every time somebody does screw that shot up it makes us all look bad. I get the urge to take them long shots especially with modern bullets and gear technology but I think we should use that stuff to make us even more effective hunters at normal distances... Again great video brother keepem coming!!

[@dpwhitaker7088]

Daniel you are to be commended with your comments. Even though you are able to shoot 1000 yds you respect the game animals by limiting your shots to 400 yds.Welll done!

[@user-my8zo8uh3n]

YOU ARE A LEGEND DANIEL AND A REAL WORLD SHOOTER WHO CARES TOTALY AGREE ......

[@oscarbear7498]

I have a a 400 yards shooting range and I won't make shots over 200 yards. Typically I'll shot at 125yards- 75 yards. It's more fun and I can always get a good shot, don't need fancy scopes or range finders. It's all crap, I'm killing a defenseless animal eating grass for God sake. If I was in war... well that's a different story , human vs human is where this bc nonsense starts to become very useful.

[@robmecklenburg3790]

My grandfather took an elk with his model 14 in .30 Rem. I'm sure he got within 150 yards. it was indeed a different time. At Grandpa's funeral some of the old fellows were telling stories and one claimed that Grandpa killed a pronghorn at 800 yards with his Eddystone 1917 06. Maybe the times have changed but the bragging hasn't

[@tonywoconish6695]

Hi Rob, I have a 30/06 REMINGTON 1917 that (still) shoots a 2 inch group at 200 yards. So…. YEAH, grandpa could of pulled off a 800 yard shot.

[@jimkelly1578]

Or the range estimation is much better now than before laser rangefinders.

[@reddeercanoe]

My father filled the grub box with moose meat every year using his .30 REM. He was a woodsman not a gun nut.

[@georgeclark6629]

I randomly picked this episode to say that Spomer's knowledge of calibers, ballistics, bullets and all other related... are accurate, well thought out and just right on! This guy knows his stuff and is a great reference. I know a lot, but he knows far more . He utilizes knowledge, common sense and experience in his presentations. His hunting/shooting history/experience far exceeds most if not all.

[@paulmeek7964]

Seen guys that can shoot 3 in groups at a grand but lack of ps physical fitness if he walks 1/2 mile on small incline he can't hit that 10 inch target at 500 consistently. Physical shape play a part and most importantly your mental state on focusing on range wind target after that up hill climb. Great show really enjoyed the new guys input

[@petermeyer7062]

Buck fever kicks quickly in when it's not target shooting anymore in the hunting game field

[@dougcutler5404]

I made up my mind a half a century ago and never looked back from the legendary .270 Winchester...and never will!....r.i.p. Jack O'Conner, you were so right

[@mdog1615]

Each to their own but I like the get closer theory , i find it more challenging to get closer to an animal than to shoot an extra few hundred yards or so.

[@tim7052]

Totally agree!! 👍

[@oscarbear7498]

People are too out of shape to walk an extra 100 yards

[@Soledadsworld]

For what - this is the key question. Most of this is marketing hype, and useless capability for most hunters - note the distinction: Hunters, NOT "shooters". If you talk about hunting ethics, the vast majority of individuals have no business taking a shot further than 200, or 250, yards. When I was in the Marine Corps, my lowest qual score was 225, my highest, 238. We were required to shoot prone at 500 yards as part of our qualification, with iron sights. Scope or not, high velocity round or not, if you are not an expert shot, the risk of wounding and not making a clean kill is unacceptable. UNACCEPTABLE AND UNETHICAL. More velocity and higher BC's are not the answer. Longer shots are often taken because hunters don't want to hump the extra distance for a good shooting opportunity when they can take a long shot, and only hump the distance if they kill the animal. I have never taken a shot at an animal, trophy or not, beyond 250 yards. Learn how to scout and stalk. If you still or stand hunt, familiarize yourself with your chosen area. I have taken most game with a .250 Savage, .257 Roberts , .300 Savage, and .45-70's. Accurate shot placement is the key. No animal "knows" if it was shot by a magnum or a 100+ year old cartridge, or what its velocity was. Stay within your capability.

[@tim7052]

Amen to that!! 👍

[@smokedbrisket3033]

Preach it, brother. Fact is, if you live and hunt east of I-35, opportunities for any long range hunting are fairly limited anyway. A lot of that hunting is like my place near the Louisiana state penitentiary - thick hardwoods, lots of undergrowth, and 50 yard shots are the norm. In that environment, IMO, a fast moving bullet is more of a liability because the odds of the bullet ruining more meat increases. All 3 of my "deer woods" rifles are fairly slow, at least compared to the modern craze of fast movers. My 45-70 lobs 425 gr bullets at about 1625 fps, my 6.5x55 shoots 160 gr bullets at about 2400 fps, and my 9.3x62 shoots 285 gr bullets at about 2300 fps. With all 3, I can practically eat right up to the hole because there's so little extra tissue damage. My 280 AI is the only long range hunting rifle I own, and the only one I'm likely to own. Doing load development now, but if I can get MOA or better accuracy and 2700-2750 fps out of 175 gr bullets, that'll easily get me to 400 yards. I *might* stretch to 500 yards at a big 9x9 if the conditions were perfect, but otherwise, if I can't sneak to within 400 yards, well, it was that critter's lucky day. I do go out to 1000 yards with my 308, but A) it isn't a hunting rifle and B) I'd never take a poke at a 4-legged animal at that distance, not even with something like a 28 Nosler.

[@timg7627]

Well said Sir

[@aaronwilcox6417]

Whoh!! This guest is gold. What he talks about is exactly what I do. I practice in my rural area with my 270win in mountain canyons. Mostly I practice up to 400yd limit offhand unsupported or with an sling and sitting. If I use an actual impromptu rest like my pack, prone or whatever I can attempt up to 500yd. I do all this practice with cheaper cup core 130 and 150gr bullets. Past that my 270win runs out of the energy I demand for elk but deer are dainty and easy to take down. I'm pretty darn good at 400yd unsupported and I'd take that shot most times. Let's face it, about any bullet does the job ok at 400 and 500yds. The biggest factor is the operator. If I need to go farther I jump up in lethality to a larger high b.c. 338 cal setup. Basically antimaterial and use a rest. My goal is to be an blend of Townsend Whelan and modern precision shooter within limits to what I'm shooting. I like the ability to be mobile with kit to spend days and days away in the field and also have the ability to have an good amount of reach. It helps to live in an mountainous area to practice such capability. Still at end of day I'd be happy hunting with my Ruger Hawkeye 270win and some ancient Winchester 150gr Power Point component bullets. It's mostly about getting out practicing and tuning your kit.

[@stevenwagner9912]

Nothing wrong with many older cartridges. The new ones benefit from an increase in precision in manufacturing. What used to be done with hand craftsmanship is now done with precision machines. I have never used a shotgun that has the smooth feel on my 97 Winchester. And very few modern firearms have the beauty of a wood stock and blued steel.

[@dr.froghopper6711]

I fail to understand the perceived need for sniping an animal at those long ranges. Good Lord! A 500-600yard trek across canyon country just to hope you killed your animal and it dropped where it stood? Nope! Get closer or go home!

[@jimvogel4346]

I think the problem is that these people aren't trying to put meat on the table like we used to do to eat. They're target shooting for meat.

[@rjcoady21]

As someone who's walked to 10yd of a Michigan whitetail and spooked Coues deer trying to get under 600yds. Shit happens, you will not always be able to close the distances. No amount of woodsmanship can get you across 400yd of dead grass and cactai on a hill face, without making noise.

[@buddy22801012]

Creedmoor is located in NYC. It was originally in Nassau county Long Island but was purchased by the city of NY in 1912 I believe and became a Psychiatric center which makes perfect sense since that’s around the time NYS lost its mind. The facility is now in disarray. I would have loved to have seen the area back then.

[@jmfa57]

Even though I've been shooting since the 1970s (got my Hunter Safety Certificate in 1976), I refuse to shoot at game over ~200 yards. Those are MY limitations based on not only my own abilities, the accuracy of the rifles in my collection, the limited opportunities I've even had to practice, and the extremely limited opportunities I've had to hunt when living in Southern California, where you dare not even discuss that you like to hunt. GREAT video!

[@jasonrottlaender1721]

I didn't know they had hunter safety that early. In Utah they started around 85 or so.

[@hawkuser604]

I remember using an M16A2 when I was in the Infantry and we zeroed them for 300 meters, which is a bit farther than 300 yards using the 62 grain green tip ammo and using the pretty good iron sights that it had. Hitting the 300 meter target was not too difficult even in the prone with no rest, but if you had any wind more a few MPH it could be a challenge. Not to mention that you had a limited amount of time to shoot before the (man sized) target dropped and it was called a miss. After shooting the .243 Winchester as a kid at ground hogs before that time with a 4 power scope, I was shocked at how the 5.56 was blown off target so easily past 250. A Scoped 243 was like a laser beam with a sierra 85 grain out to about 250 yards. Now I know why we spent so much tome on the range with those old M-16's. You could shoot a near perfect score one day and the next a 5 mph wind would frustrate you!

[@pdb6157]

I’m so glad that they nailed the point home of practice a lot and continuously if your going to be attempting a long range shot on game so you don’t take an unethical shot

[@retirednavy8720]

375 H&H. Introduced in 1912. Still probably the best overall cartridge ever designed. You can hunt every game animal on earth with that one round.

[@tomfouche6995]

Jip. I'm still using a Ruger no.1 for 2 decades on African game. Modern bullets, modern powders put it in a new class, extremely effective. Have fun outdoors.

[@locarnese5598]

Yep. I couldn't agree more. Besides my particular affinity for the .375 H&H, I'd say that by 1970 (at the very most) every HUNTING cartridge humans needed had been invented and perfected. I'm in the firearms industry, so I know the power of marketing and the pressure that management puts on product developers to come up with something new every year.

[@jimkelly1578]

And take out an entire quarter of a deer.

[@michaelgarrow3239]

Praise dogs are getting nervous. 😁

[@retirednavy8720]

@@jimkelly1578 BS. But it is nice to know you will publicly show your ignorance. A 375 H&H does less meat damage than a high velocity round like. 7mm Mag, 300 mag or even a 270. It fires a heavier bullet at a lower velocity. There is a saying among PHs in Africa that with a 375 H&H you can eat right up to the bullet hole. It causes almost no bloodshot meat. But hey I have only been to Africa 5 times on safari and have only taken 40+ deer sized animals with the 375 H&H so what do I know. I am sure you have "much" more first hand experience right?

[@warrenlathrop6296]

The 7MM Remington mag was introduced in 1962 and the 330 Wiin Mag just a year later.That pretty much filled out a full line of cartridges from 22 to 458 calibers for all shooting needs. I don't see any later development that was worth all the fuss and bother. Sight either one of those two four inches high at 200 yards and you are ethical point and shoot to 400 without checking your lazer range finder or twisting any scope dials. Thanks as always for the video.

[@user-my8zo8uh3n]

Totaly agree too much bullshit these days next thing ya know if ya cant hit 15 deg round corners ya havent got right set up ,let them all rant rave and bang on my friend we are on same page run brno 270 old school this way GOD BLESS FROM AUSTRALIA DOWN UNDER....

[@exothermal.sprocket]

The more research a person does on the history of cartridges, just about everything that's ever been done, is already done. Just about every wildcat, every caliber, every rifle platform has already been tried and done. Powder, bullet design, and rifle steel/manufacturing precision. Those are the differences. All else still remains. There ARE NO SHORTCUTS TO SKILL, and all the same factors that pertained to late 1800's hunters pertains to 2020's hunters, regardless of technology.

[@Soledadsworld]

I think the next evolution will be to fire rockets at game animals. Ridiculous.

[@user-my8zo8uh3n]

AGREE JUST LOOK HISTORY OF THE 303 BRITISH LEE ENFIELD GREAT EXAMPLE

[@darrendavis7699]

I am currently building a 338-06 thanks to Ron putting out a great video last year on the 338 WM. I previously had and sold a 338 Rum which is an insanely good long range cartridge and flattened a few animals including moose way out there. But those were the exception versus what I would normally have for shots, but I put myself in those positions to take those long shots and I could have made them shorter easily looking back at them. So wanting another 338 and being realistic the 338 WM is just a bit more than I need now days the 338-06 is about perfect and will give me 350 to 400 yard performance on moose and elk but I doubt I will need it. If I do need a bit more reach I have a 300 WM that will give me the reach that I have the skills for which is way less than the rifle and my handloads are capable of. So thanks again Ron for all your hard work that you put into these videos and thanks for helping me out of a couple of thousand dollars for a full rifle build ready to hunt this season 😁

[@highplainsdrifter9631]

One of the best wildcats ever. Incredibly good.

[@madmullets]

This segment made me look at what I use to hunt. Where I live and hunt in western PA 75 yards is a long shot on a deer or a bear. Now I have a thing for lever guns, that in mind my go to guns are my Savage 99 in 300 savage, Marlin guide gun in 45-70, or my Rem pumpmaster in 300 savage, and a a Marlin 444 or as of late a Contender in 45-70 as I get older and don't want to lug a rifle up and down hills with dense trees and under brush. Working in the construction field beats up and ages your body fast. I don't own any thing developed beyond the 60s at best. If I'm lucky one day in my life time ill get a PA elk tag and use my 300 Weatherby Mag. Amazing gun and caliber to be honest just cost too damn much to pull the trigger. From a young age 9 or 10 hunting with my dad and his uncles I was taught how to move in the woods how game acts is more important than having the latest and "greatest" loadings with crazy optics. If I lived out west I think a trusty 7mm, or 25-06 would work just fine. I never saw that need to shoot at game over 500 yards things just get to sketchy at longer ranges. My favorite season is PA flint lock gun season. Flint lock season filters out at the yahoos that fire 3 bullets a year and that shoot at anything that moves. Yes we still hunt with flint locks and it will still drop a deer at 100 yards. Its not about the guns and gear is about the person behind the trigger.

[@johnpittinger1545]

Really enjoyed you guys take on long range shooting. I have in the past hand loaded and know what it takes to work up a load for a rifle to really get max performance for my rifle. Still I set a range for myself that I felt that I could make a kill shot at and thank you lord I managed to stay in that range for the last 50 plus years and can only remember loosing just 1 animal in that time. Keep up the good work and continue to inform hunters and help them to look at themselves and judge their ability before they pull the trigger.

[@kurtreinhardt6789]

Great topic- but as you both stated- those longer range shots are no laughing matter- the right equipment makes the job easier but doesn't replace the skill required

[@mainenorthwoodshunter3265]

Here in Maine, a 500-yard shot is very rare. I did shoot a deer once at 456 yards with a 270 WSM. I like you said, shot a lot more back then and knew my ballistics on that cartridge well. I like to hunt because of the hunt. The kill is down the line a bit for me now. I even refinished an old 30/30 this year to get back in the woods and enjoy the closer range. I think the old cartridges fare pretty well below 500 yards. Nobody as an average hunter should be shooting at an animal further than that UNLESS like you all stated, you shoot a lot. You live and breathe shooting at long range. You need to rely on a lot more things going right at those distances. Something I will not bet on at my age. Great discussion men.

[@wbrodgers6160]

Two of the best, if not the two best, gun writers working today. Certainly, two of the most honest and educational. Fantastic discussion.

[@luvtahandload7692]

Hey Ron, opened my mailbox today to find Covey on the cover of American Hunter magazine. Not all of us have magazine cover-worthy dogs. You are blessed! Enjoyed the vid. Thanks Ron!

[@williammills7778]

I really appreciate this kind of discussion. I tend to stick to what I know, but this video makes me want to know more about this 😊👍

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Knowledge is power.

[@richardstone5241]

I do not believe nor agree taking hunting shots longer than 400 yards. I'm 69 years old now and have been shooting since I was 8 having been taught by my grandfather who was an amazing hunter and competition shooter. In all my years of hunting I have not found the need to shoot an animal further than 325 yards. It's called HUNTING an animal and doing it ethically. However, later in my life, in the military, shooting the enemy beyond 400 yards was considered OK since a wounded enemy soldier was as effective as a dead one. Just remember, hunting is different than bench shooting.

[@sammartinez8084]

Great show Ron and good information thanks my friend 🦌🦌🦌🦌🦌

[@rontruocchio5744]

where i live in the northeast a 400yd shot would have you shooting into someone elses property so it's important to be within 100 yds of your target, this usually means finding a good spot to post and have the deer come to you. scope is basically used for better dawn and dusk target visibility and making sure your deer is legal. the scope usually cost more than the rifle

[@furmanmackey5479]

It's the same here in the Southeast!

[@brianjaynes1030]

My 2 fav gun-gurus on the same podcast! Love it. Glad to be a pateron for both of you fine gentlemen.

[@stephenland9361]

"Are Modern Cartridges Really Better?" Perhaps... A modern cartridge, purposely designed for long range, accurate shooting using modern, high ballistic co-efficient bullets and loaded with the latest in modern powder will outperform a classic like the .30-06. Okay, outperform it how? Better groups at 1,000 yards. Higher retained velocity and thus kinetic energy at 1,200 yards. Shorter time to get out to one mile and thus less susceptible to wind drift. I'll grant you all of that. Let's call that long distance target shooting. Combine this modern cartridge with a high-end, purpose built long range rifle, premium barrel, high twist rate, precision built action, custom high end trigger etc., etc. Then put a rifle scope on in that is actually better suited for amateur astronomy and you'll have the last word in long range target shooting technology. Is any of this necessary for hunting? Not at all. In fact, if it encourages people to shoot at game at distances they have no business shooting at, it is detrimental to ethical hunting. Does anyone remember the concept of "Fair Chase"? It's supposed to be your skills against the animals senses and ability to evade you. If you can't get close enough to take a high percentage shot with your grandfather's rifle still topped with a fixed four power scope (or an aperture sight), work on improving your skills.

[@Soledadsworld]

Amen!

[@scenicdriveways6708]

I lived in Wyoming for 20+ years and hunted there as well. I did not see or hear of people taking 600+ yard shots at deer - elk - moose - bear.... Sure, you get your Bulls-itters once and awhile who claim they took a deer at extreme long distances, but your average honest hunter will tell you they took their game from inside 300 yards ( maybe 400 tops, but rarely ).

[@jrow84]

These youtube kids these days will shoot at something if they can see it. It's all about bragging rights nowadays. Not much sportsmanship in the younger generation

[@scenicdriveways6708]

@@jrow84 I agree. I can't tell you how many people I have seen call themselves Squirrel Hunters ( on social network sites ) only to find out they install feeders in their yards and then shoot the squirrels off the feeders from their deck or lawn chairs. That isn't squirrel hunting, their is no "fair chase", and it's extremely unsportsmanlike. And the amount of people agreeing with them in the comments section is mind blowing! It really shows you how many ethical hunters are in these groups.

[@lz3572]

One of the best I’ve seen 🤙🤙great video So much truth. Practice makes perfect

[@ridgehunter2217]

In over 40 years of hunting and killing many animals my average kill shot is 110 yards. Longest shot, 500 yd. Closest, 15 yd. Both with a .270 win. But my most memorable and satisfying shots/kills were those taken at close range after long, painstakingly slow, quiet, deliberate stealthy stalks. It's the way I prefer to hunt, but hunting doesn't always happen the way you prefer. My self-imposed practical limit is 400 yards, yet the longest shot/kill I've made in 12 years is 275 yd. I know my equipment, my MPBR, and my drop/hold-over to 400 yd should I need it. When I was young and supremely confident (cocky) I knew I could make kills at long range and I did. That confidence and ability was born of a whole lot of time spent outdoors hunting, observing, shooting, and killing many animals, including a lot of small game. And my rifle was an extension of myself. I no longer consider it ethical to shoot animals at extreme distances. A few can do it, most shouldn't try. Classic cartridges work perfectly for the way I hunt now. Give me a 7mm-08 with a 20" barrel and light weight scope, and some good boots, and I'm good to go. I also don't think modern calibers with fast twist rates and heavy for caliber bullets will perform/expand as effectively at closer ranges, so, while tempting, I'll stick with classics!

[@Nick-sx6jm]

Thats exactly why I got a 28 Nosler. Where I hunt we can shoot out to 400 yards in many places because of shooting lanes, marshes, fields, etc. With something like the Nosler you get less drop, drift, time of flight, and more energy in case you have to take a quartering shot. Two years in a row I shot bucks walking at 325 and 350 yards and it certainly didnt hurt to have all that horsepower.

[@jarlprae9475]

New to your material, really like it. Used to live in the Rockies and hunted a lot of game with a .223 bolt. Never lost an animal but I was patient and hunting in dense woods. It really comes down to hunters knowing their limits and ranges.

[@jamesamann9745]

Long distance shooting on a range under ideal conditions is very different from shooting in the field under hunting conditions. Long distance shooting is much more difficult while wearing heavy clothing, your hands are numb from the cold and your using an improvised rest to steady your rifle.

[@TheWVgoodguy22]

Two of my absolute favorite gentlemen in the world 🌎 of gun writing and western adventure knowledge. Definitely another great video of a dream collaboration for me. I can definitely see the points that both are making. I actually want to go to a shooting school and get better at shooting longer ranges so I have that 1/4 mile capability when I get out west for my first western big game hunt where I actually have a tag 🏷 Most likely a Wyoming rifle mule deer 🦌 and pronghorn hunt, next year. I picked up a box of the Hornady Precision Hunter in 300 PRC and checked out the cartridge. That 212 grain ELDX stuck out to what looked like 195 grains were in front of the neck. My 300 WSM and it’s 200 grain ELDX looks normal in comparison. Being a long time user and lover of the 270 Win, I am really interested in a rifle chambered in 6.8 Western. Sadly now both the rifle and ammo are extremely difficult to find. 😔

[@hoffmiermp]

They really need to revisit the older soon to be obsolete calibers with these new modern tech bullet. My Italian M91 calvary carbine chambered in the 6.5 Carcano came to life when I used the 120 Barnes OTM/MBs over the general run of the mill ammo that it was originally designed for. I haven't even began to tinker with/do load developments using the 130 and 140 grain bullet weights with that rifle. It's not that we need new calibers but may need to revisit the older soon to be obsolete calibers with today's modern day bullet technology.

[@jk-kr8jt]

Hi Ron. I can't say I agree with this one. Mostly because I'm not a fan of the vast majority of people who consider themselves long range shooters. Just my 2 cents. But, but, but I had a big surprise today. Picked up dad's mail and saw this beautiful girl on the cover. Nope, it wasn't Vogue or the SI swimsuit edition, it was American Hunter. Covey is looking good. Been kind of wondering why she hadn't make a cameo appearance in a while. Obviously she was holding out for the cover shot reveal. Keep up the good work and keep well. Cheers, Jeff

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Covey is a Cover Girl? I haven't seen that issue of American Hunter yet, but it sounds as if I'd better order a picture frame.

[@jwzerbe]

I like to know where i can put the bullet out to about 300 yds, with my 6mm rem, 270, and 30-06, but I typically hunt in western pa woods and generally shoot inside of 40yds. Flat nose bullets in quick handling lever actions are still very effective here.

[@rpk5250]

Great video. These collaborative videos are really cool because taking several respected people and putting them in the same room or on the same video at the same time really is a good idea

[@richardfisher9252]

Always liked the wssm , I've got the 243 and the 25 and plenty of brass.

[@billnewell7786]

Nice to see Joseph. I've subscribed to Shooting Times for years and read a lot of his article.yes but this is the first time I've ever seen him.

[@bradbo3]

Im in the NE and almost never have a shot over 150 yds….and thats only if Its it a huge farm field. Most times its in the woods. So I dont really get into the long range stuff. I know many are into it….but Im thinking thats guys out west or in the plains where you have longer shots available.

[@kennethhowell1272]

I don't think it so much that modern cartridges leave the old magnum cartridges in the dust as much as the vast improvement sportsmen have seen in bullets. And I agree about spending the time at long range shooting so that you are proficient and ethical in taking game. I had a friend years ago before everyone had rangefinders who could accurately judge distance and knew the ballistic capabilities of his rifle and knew where to hit the animal to make a clean kill.

[@K-bob_45]

Bullets and propellants for sure. He described a 30-06 as a 180 at 2700. In 2022 you can run that case full of RL-26 and drop a 205 berger elite hunter on top and you’ll be closer to 2800 from a 24” barrel. It’s a good time to be a reloader as far as technology

[@jimkelly1578]

Your friend had all the basics. Understand the gun and the ammunition you're using, understand your quarry and understand your capabilities in relation to the conditions.

[@highplainsdrifter9631]

@@K-bob_45 only problem is RL-26 is rare as hens teeth these days. I haven't seen so much as a pound in close to three years. I do have a good supply of RL-22, though. I love 200 grain bullets in the '06. Underrated and overlooked by many hunters and shooters.

[@petermeyer7062]

Hi,l believe the hunting terrain requires the exact distance to shoot (zeroing)distances but depending on the calibre you have including the bullet weight.

[@brucegerken1063]

I have 270 wsm it likes 130gr silver tip .hand loads dialed in to my model 70 . A new sport shooting m and ms at 200 yards best 10 out of 10 . Thanks again cheers to ya.

[@redhawk449]

I like to hunt elk in the dark timber in Colorado. That is where they are certain seasons. With a lot of patience, I've found my self looking at elk 20 yards away. A really long shot is well under 100 yards. You can spot them 900 yards away, across the canyon in those narrow windows Ron mentioned but the wind will be blowing up, down and across between you and them. Even so the shot, as challenging as it would be, might very well be the easy part. Packing out that delicious meat, that it would be a sin to leave behind, might be nearly impossible. I love to hunt, cook and eat, not so much the kill. Passed on many shots that didn't feel certain. A time or two just because it was that animals lucky day.

[@johncerny4700]

Yep, The Creedmore Range was within NYC limits in Queens County NY, and also right, it’s part of Long Island.

[@drdes9609]

I think the best way to look at this is the 6mm creedmoor vs 243 win. If you are shooting 1000 yards 6 creedmoor is better because it can shoot longer heavier bullets that buck the wind. If you hunting is there a significant difference? In my opinion no. A 90-100g bullet will kill a deer no problem and 243 can handle bullets at that weight. Most hunters don't or even cant take a shot more than 250 yards (the woods are thick in the NE and Northern parts of the midwest) so when you compare the two there is no difference. You also have to look at your bullet construction, most bullets will not expand reliably less than 2000fps so that's at best 350 yards.

[@kirkmartin2223]

The barrel twist rate is where a "standard" 6creed steps away from the 243win. 243win has a larger case capacity and also a slower twist barrel. It also has a shorter neck so with a 100gr projectile in a 243win you are seating that "big" bullet deeper in the case and getting into that powder capacity. Now there are many "if's". If you chamber a longer throat in a 243, faster twist barrel, ackley improved and a few other things....then the 243 really comes alive. Like Ron said all BC is, is the bullets ability to hold onto velocity and energy down range. More energy is more better especially when hunting at any distance.

[@bekkerbosbeer3453]

Thanks alott, once again extremely informative and always new things to learn, now I understand even better.

[@denniscochran8735]

I shoot a 25-06 and a 7rem mag. If you have the money shoot Barnes copper bullets if you don't shoot Nosler partitions. A 120 grain Nosler partition in a 25-06 is a killing machine. Remember bullets that expand and contain there weight pushes through the animal. Ballistic coefficient is overrated these days.

[@Nathan-zw7nq]

30-06 with swift sciroccos, Norma Bondstrike, Barnes LRX or Sierra TGKs are all great long range bullets that do great at 300-400 yards.

[@kentuckywindage222]

All so true Ron. 6.5 creedmoor gets dumped on by lots of folks. Facts and figure's don't lie. That bullet has done pretty incredible things for the Norwegian/Swede. Common sense will always tell you, a good big dog will always beat a good little dog.

[@grayman7208]

1:00 that actually has nothing to do with the "cartridge" ... it has to do with the rifle / barrel manufacturers. re-barrel any of the classics to a faster twist rate. an example would be ... everyone thinks the 6.5 creedmore is "all that." the 6.5 creedmore does nothing 6.5 swede did 100 years ago. simply re-barrel a .260 remington to a faster twist and it will out shine the creedmore as well.

[@jerdonestimating6113]

Modern and old cartridges both have plenty of capability for the distances I hunt. One of the biggest reasons to go modern is the consistent accuracy you get from 6.5 cm & prc, 300prc, etc. I have shot many different rifle / cartridge combinations and the 6.5 cm makes for tight groups. I am drawn to an accurate rifle more than ballistic charts. If you have one rifle in 6.5 prc that shoots one ragged hole groups and another rifle in 270 that shoots 1.5”, which one are you gonna grab for a hunt? I know all the cartridges can be made to shoot tight groups but the new ones out of the box w factory ammo…….

[@locarnese5598]

How much more than a half/three-quarter minute of angle do you need? Good shooters can get that with most 30-06 production rifles today. I don't believe in a cartridge's inherent accuracy. It's the combination with the rifle that does the trick, and if the rifle is well made, most cartridges can be extremely accurate.

[@phild9813]

I don’t really care to hunt long ranges, but I also am not going to crap on the newer cartridges like some. I love having choices. The newer designs push longer, heavier bullets and maintain more energy than older designs. Pushing the heavier bullets a bit slower used to be something that was lauded among hunters for penetration and retaining energy. Let’s set the long range issue aside, these newer cartridges do just that. And, I believe we should all appreciate them a bit more for that.

[@hotramen5952]

you know, the 6.5 creed, the 6.5 prc, and the 6.8 western really are the new working mans chamberings. the .30-06 of our age. now you can go get a rack rifle for under a grand thats coated and has muzzle threads, in a chambering that combined with the tight throat specs can do half moa, in chamberings designed to reach out and touch game AND targets. no handloading needed. no custom barrel needed. one affordable rifle that does everything extremely accurately, with store bought ammo. they really are what the .30-06 was for so long. the working mans rifle.

[@locarnese5598]

Answer: no, if we are talking about hunting. To me, any hunting that takes place beyond 300-350 yards is not sportsmanlike--perhaps with a very few exceptions for the most specialized game in canyon country. Within that moderate distance, any cartridge throwing a bullet of good sectional density at about 2,500 fps is perfectly adequate. With additional speed, you start requiring premium bullets and only gain a few inches in point-blank range; with additional BC, you gain nothing; with short, "efficient" cartridges, you also gain nothing and you may lose the ability to load heavier bullets. You're all my brothers and I respect everyone's choice, but you can keep your 6.5 Whizbang requiring a 1:7" twist rate and throwing a pencil-long bullet at 3,000 fps. I'll keep my good old 6.5x54, .30-06 and .375 H&H, which have served the hunting world perfectly well for over 110 years.

[@martinfernandez5005]

I recognize that the high BC bullets tend to be longer and need a faster twist. The Speer gold dot which is designed for tactical use is bonded with a BC of .571.Its better than a nonbonded gernade and iv'e tested high velocity impacts at 3000 fps in .264 WM 1:9 twist because it has a rebated BT and just as short as a Aframe 140 gr. Speer Impact, also bonded and has a length of 2.700" is also short enough with a BC of .526.

[@timhatchett7048]

I’ve only got around 50 to 100 yards I use a 159 grain but I love to see how far I can. I lost my legs much harder now. I’ve got all kinds of guns,love to hunt with my pistols too

[@bobjohnson7207]

In the real world a 44 rem.mag in a carbine makes the most spectacular terminal performance. All but one of my deer stand up at 75yds. and the one at well over 100yds. get knocked off there feet. Sometimes there is two much if a good thing.

[@wdtaut5650]

Good discussion on twist rate, bullet length, and b.c. I would like a similar discussion on bullet weight. For a given cartridge, how does bullet weight affect downrange performance?

[@tinwisconsin8679]

If your too lazy to get closer, what makes you think someone will "walk the walk" to find out if it was hit or wounded. Not a fan of long range shooting

[@graynotescartridgebox]

My 6.5 PRC load will go 600 yards in the same time that my .308 load will go 350 yards.

[@malachiwhite356]

Thing about the PRC . . . How is the recoil? What load and rifle do you use?

[@graynotescartridgebox]

@@malachiwhite356 the recoil is around that of a 7mm-08. I’m shooting a 143 gr ELD-X in one over H4831 around 3000 fps. The other rifle I shoot a 130 gr Sierra Tipped GameKing over H1000 around 3150 fps.

[@thehoneybadger8089]

Just because you have the money to buy a priceless Stradivarius does not make you a world-renowned concert violinist.

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Interesting....Thanks very much.....Shoe🇺🇸

[@thecount1001]

fascinating conversation!

[@nwolinsP]

Many people think they need the best, newest and shiniest. Just go out and have fun with the stuff have.

[@johnoltrogge6333]

Any animal can make a sudden move, but generally speaking, hunters who study animal behavior in the field are more likely able to pick the optimum time to fire their weapon, which reduces the risk of marginal shots at any range. As an old hunter, I've caught myself mentally saying 'shoot' to videos and in person when watching people miss opportunities because they were unable to read animal behavior and couldn't anticipate what was about to happen. The better the 'hunter', the more ethical longer shots are, but conversely, the better the hunter, the better able they are to actually 'hunt' and get closer.

[@normanrea8146]

New cartridges are essential to the evolution of firearms. As is the new powders for older cartridges. I have my favorites as do many shooters. Most new cartridges are quite good,but as in all developments,they're quite expensive. I enjoy seeing if " I " can improve on my chosen cartridges.

[@konsum949]

Good topic, just because you can shoot long range, it isnt always the most ethical decision for the animal. But having Said so, many cartridges and kalibers doesnt do well on larver distances. Personally i dont really like the macho-culture`s aspect on extreme shooting distances, sure i can appriciate the marksmanship and technology but i dont appriciate it, it doesnt seem to be hunting with the best for the animal.

[@308blr2]

At 12:59; “Can’t buy woodsmanship.” My friend’s game camera regularly photographs nice deer; and they never make it to the freezer. I put out no game cameras; and I can’t justify the taxidermy bill.

[@marinioaweischo6614]

Look at old german cartdridges, just for example, 7x64, a hundred years old is using a twistrate 1:8,7, and the 130 years old 6,5x57 is using 1:7,9. Both in today popular long rage bullet diameters. Beltless Magnum cartridges? 8x68S, 9,3x64. Super fast 6mm cartdridge = .244 Halger Magnum, all prewar. It's such a human thing to reinvent the wheel, because nobody looks more than a couple of years back.

[@72RR446]

One thing to remember ... even if the cartridge is capable, is the shooter? Personally, I don't want to walk more than 300-400 yards to retrieve an animal. The old cartridges are better today due to bullet/powder technology advances.

[@poorfatman5317]

You can always get barrels with higher twist rate with the old cartridges inventing new cartridges is just stupid they're trying to take more people's money oh look you got to buy a new rifle and buy new ammo

[@jamesramsey8744]

My longest shot and kill on a whitetail deer was 300 yards. I use a savage axis 243 with a 1& 9.5 twist rate an use federal power shok 100 grain bullets, the deer folded no problem

[@paulreid2223]

Just purely from the ballistics angle ;the "old" cartridges, with more modern powders, and better constructed bullets give sufficiently impressive performance : Also, Parker Ackley was way ahead of his time with improving cartridge design to get better ballistic performance from stand cartridges of his day.

[@farmerdave9312]

Great vid thanks again... another formula you NEED is bullet choice, knowing minimum velocity for expansion on impact is a must ,,,,that's why velocity rules for long range some pills have min of 2300fps,some go down to 1300fps if your pill is heavy for caliber and high bc it might have the energy on target on the calculator but will be way below minimum expansion velocity if shooting it at 2800fps

[@stormiewutzke4190]

You kinda said it in fewer words than I did but the problem I am seeing is making sure that you have good expansion throughout the range regardless of your talent. I think these new rounds are going in the right direction but with these harder bullets you probably still want 2300 with 2400 being better and still run the risk of bullets blowing up at close range if you use softer rounds .

[@millibarman]

I’ll give Joseph $10 to stop saying 7 em em 😂

[@jamesdeaton4467]

Ron your Guest is the GOMER PYLE of Hunting 😮

[@jacobbeard8037]

I found 3006 is incredible until you start loading long eldm type bullets. That 1 in 10 twist doesn't seem to be quite fast enough. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my experience. I took my first elk at 450 yards with a 180 grain 3006 remington corelockt and 1950s bolt gun.

[@ronlowney4700]

😁 FYI Ron - The SAMMI specks for the 7mm prc just dropped (Actually on 06/07/2022) and the case is essentially 0.535" wide, 2.28" long, has a 30 degree shoulder, and has a neck length of 0.2868"! It will push out a 180 grain bullet at 2,950 ft/s (essentially the same as the 7mm Remington Magnum), but can handle 65,000 psi (unlike the underperforming 7mm Remington Magnum 😂)! However, it is still 200 ft/s slower than the 300wsm with the same weight bullet - so those higher 7mm B.C. bullets will never catch the 300wsm bullets at any reasonable hunting distances! ☹ Just thought you all should know! 🤷‍♂️ At least those that actually care to read other people's comments and learn will know! 🥳

[@66smithra]

Dropped? Is it a rap album? :)

[@ronlowney4700]

It might as well be! 🤣 All these 7mm releases - 280 AI, 7mm PRC, 28 Nosler - are dropping the stock (sales/popularity) of the 7mm Remington Magnum! 😂 The 7mm's are all some sort of "Re-mix" (Recycling the same ideas over and over, like a washing machine)! 😳

[@fr8cture]

I shot my first deer ever this past fall at 342 yards with a Remington 760 in 308. I would have never took that shot if I didn't have an idea for range.

[@johnfila6480]

most hunters shoot within 200 yrs. not 1000 yards

[@jamesparlane9289]

So, what is the nearly perfect .30-06 load for optimal 440 yard shots out of a standard rifle like a Rem 700, Win mod. 70 or a Ruger 77?

[@magnumcipher4971]

Time of flight of an arrow from even the fastest bows exceed that of a high powered rifle bullet at 500-600 yards, not to mention the added noise fro the bow that hits the game’s ear before the payload arrives. Flight time is just part of the on-the-fly calculations a hunter/shooter have to make. The only way to get there is experience.

[@wsbill14224]

Bow hunters usually take deer from under 50 yards, and at that distance when the doe hears the arrow she's hit before she can move I don't think your point makes sense in practical terms.

[@bneaclab1]

The deer is hit by the bullet before the sound at 500, and I'm assuming flight time is less with the bullet at 500 than an arrow at 35 yards...I'm definitely anti long range hunting, but I think his point does make sense.

[@wsbill14224]

@@bneaclab1 when hunting noise matters before the shot, not after. Go hunting and find out, and FYI a hunting arrow would travel 35 yds in about half the time it would take a typical rifle bullet to go 500 yds. I have never heard a bow hunter worry about a deer jumping over his arrow. Never. Deer are quick but NOT THAT QUICK!

[@magnumcipher4971]

@@wsbill14224 I am an avid bow hunter and long range shooter of over 30 years. I’ve witnessed firsthand game jump the string and flinch before the arrow arrives. Deer in particular will just get out of the way when they see the arrow headed their direction. That doesn’t happen with a rifle, no matter the range.

[@magnumcipher4971]

@@wsbill14224 respectfully sir, you are wrong.

[@ItzKostrain]

Hey Ron I have got a question. So I’m a new hunter and I just picked up a 308 rifle and I absolutely love it. Although it’s great in its own ways. I could use a little more power. My choices have been to upgrade to a 30-06 or a 6.5 creedmor. I’m stuck between both and really can’t decide. I’m looking for a rifle with a bigger cartridge and that extra knock down power. if you could help a dude out or point me in the right direction I would appreciate it. Until then Hunt honest and shoot straight😎🤙🏼

[@boredboiseboy]

Don't waste your time. The .308 has plenty of power to kill just about any game.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Based on my long experience, Lanakila, I don't think you need more power. Power doesn't kill. Hemorrhaging does. Put the right bullet in the right place and it doesn't matter if said bullet is carrying 5,000 f-p energy or 1,000 f-p. But if you insist on more power than the 308 Win, I suggest 300 Win Mag. That's a significant jump up.

[@williamray3101]

Hornady lever evolution shoot great in my 120 year old Winchester's.

[@johnthorpe1071]

Hi Ron, Is Covey's name short for "COVER GIRL" ? Thanks for the videos!

[@sgtmajtrapp3391]

I'm an old school guy and ENJOY stalking into a reasonable range. It's part of hunting for me. Shooting game at 500 plus is not for me and requires very specialized gear and lots of practice. I like old school cartridges like the 7x57 and 9.3x62, but find it an interesting topic as I have seen on youtube hunts for elk. Deer and even black bear at these long ranges 600 yards ETC.