Are those yellow hooks legal?

[@361noble]

Dude, I don’t even live in Australia and I watched the whole video. Your commitment to evidence-based reasoning and rational thinking is both highly admirable and highly appreciated. It’s what makes your channel worth watching.

[@L2SFBC]

I appreciate that, thanks so much!

[@stco2426]

Completely agree!

[@graemegaerth14]

Hi Robert. This is the first time I have seen your site and appreciate the time and effort as well as knowledge you have put into it. I have been caravanning for 40 years and am pedantic on compliance with towing regulations. The days of hooking up a 22ft Viscount Supreme behind an EH Holden station wagon loaded with kids, pets and pushbikes heading for the beach are unfortunately long gone but rightly so. We currently have a 20ft van and 3 ltr Mazda BT50, it is a good combination set up correctly and travels extremely well. The caravan builder is responsible for the safety compliance of tow chains and tow hitch. the vehicle supplier is responsible for safety and compliance of the tow bar and ball. Providing I comply with load regulations and weight distribution all is sweet. Where I am totally responsible it the safety chain connection of caravan to tow vehicle. Why would I go to all the effort to ensure I am totally safe and legal then shortcut on an undersize shackle or similar connection. I have been watching the gradual increase in usage of yellow hooks. You still require two hands to disconnect and while it is each to his own I am yet to find a benefit. With all the ambiguous documents you outlined at the end of the day if there is an unfortunate incident it will be the Insurance company that will be looking for an out and then the transport department looking for someone to hang. With that I use the largest possible tested shackle I can fit after all they are cheap as chips compared to the other towing aids required and the day I can't bend over and do up a shackle that's the day I sell the van or get my wife to do it. Apart from that thanks for an exceptional presentation and I have now that I have subscribed look forward to viewing more.

[@L2SFBC]

Thank you, I appreciate such a detailed post. I agree with all your points.

[@bobaitken9006]

Well done Robert you have now learnt that you don’t live in a single country but a commonwealth of states who can’t get the act together over lots of different regulations. Keep up the good work.

[@davidbroadbent2529]

A really clear and factual video Robert. Thank you. I would like to add the following points for you to consider and comment on, even maybe do an update to this video, if you see fit. 1. As I understand it, safety chains are REQUIRED to serve (at least) two purposes. a. Maintain an "Independent Secure Positive Connection" between the Towing Vehicle and the Towed "Load" (eg Caravan, Trailer etc); in the event of a Failure of any part of the Towing Coupling Connection. b. Restrict the Drawbar of the "Towed Load" from coming in contact with the Road Surface in event of a Failure of any Part of the Towing Coupling Connection. About 50 years back, a VicRoads Inspector told me :- a. to "Keep my safety chains as short as possible b. CROSS my safety chains. eg right hand chain on towed vehicle neck is to connect to left hand connection point on Towing Vehicle; and vice versa. c. He would NOT approve a "Towed vehicle" for Registration where the AS RATED SAFETY Chains had simply been welded to the Towing Neck, as at that time there was concerns raised of the effect of all aspects (welding temperature, rod choice etc) had on steel of rated chain. He recommended using Hammer Locks to secure the safety chain to suitable steel (or Aluminium as requires) welded per an AS std to the towed vehicle drawbar. d. He also stated that he felt, with vehicle that had removable tow couplings, secured by a Cross Pin ( eg HR) and with very "average quality thin steel plate, with hole for shackle: that this safety chain connection point was not in keeping with point 1a. above. He was recommending that at the least, for removable tow necks that a SEPARATE pair of short chains be required to go from separate adequate fixed LUGS on the Main part of the Tow Bar to their Respective "chain eyes holes" on the Removable Tow bar. And it is to either a rated shackle or hammerlock coupling used in a way that the continuity of the safety chains goes from "Fixed Tow bar assembly" all the way to Towed vehicle drawbar. [In simple words the chain connection points on the removable coupling are ONLY used as chain support, and not as a safety anchor point.] Thus one maintains a Safety Connectivity per the meaning of the relevant Australian Standards that cannot be questioned in any Coronal Hearing. As a final note, over last 40years when I connected any trailer using shackles, I always use a shifter to just nip them slightly tighter than finger tight. Also generally if I am going long distances I use a bit of tie wire though shackle pin eye to shackle.

[@hughgreen7826]

Magnificent memory

[@ricoda5]

great video, can i add that years ago during my apprentiship as a fitter, the instructor demonstrated a twisted chain climb out past a safety catch on a hook when load was applied, so to this day I still remember that from 40 years ago and wont use hooks on a trailer for that reason

[@gruffystrawbry2715]

Nice work Robert! I deal with this in our large fleet and we say it's a rated shackle only. The reasons we don't allow hooks are; 1, because they aren't recommended by any authority. 2, because the spring mechanisms aren't reliable or durable in the dirty off road environment we operate in. I will hang my hat ( and my professional reputation) on the standards and advice from the feds.

[@madmadmickhog]

what a breath of fresh air !!! A pity our statutory authorities don't hire this guy to clean up their files /good work mate / appreciate it !

[@lukehiggs2420]

Nice well researched video, very informative. One thing a lot of people don’t consider is the wear caused between the tow hitch and attachments when just left swinging in the breeze when not in use.

[@axelknutt5065]

Very interesting information. The biggest issue is buying your yellow hooks off Wish or Alibaba .. if they do have any markings, can you trust them and if they don’t have any markings, it’s going to be pretty hard to convince the authorities that they do comply.

[@bradkark]

Thanks for this video! I really like your evidence based approach. I recently replaced the worn chains on my 4T van and struggled with the regulations, particularly for the G80 chain. I now understand the various standards better and while I’m pretty sure I fitted the correct components I can now make sure they are correctly marked so I can justify their suitability , if I need to. I didn’t know about they safety factor of 4 for chains and hammerlocks, I had thought it was 6 for chains, shackles and hammerlocks. I see many people who just put the shackle in the end link and let the chains touch the ground. This was the case with my van, even though it had passed a road worth inspection just before I bought it some links were worn through by more than 50%.

[@L2SFBC]

Safety factor of 4 for G80. Not hooks, G80 hooks, and whatever else is tested to G80 (AS3776 in Australia). The standard is different to the unit.

[@mikeburston9427]

Well done Robert this is the best video covering this topic. Another issue with the spring loaded gate hooks is you can get a situation known as chain roll out causing the chain to become separated from the hook. Great work

[@Xstream65]

Another great video Robert. Appreciate the effort you put in to enable the facts to be conveyed in an easily understandable format. I’ll be sticking to a a pair of WLL1 shackles, the cost differential is a no brainer

[@dennisharvey4317]

Damn fine presentation ! Once again each state in Australia has different requirements and standards , not unlike traffic regulations, crazy! I totally agree what you are saying. It is imperative that there should be one standard for towing equipment for the whole nation in this regard. Keep it right, keep it simple. Thanks for your informative video.

[@peterskennerton5198]

Very thorough review of the matter and gives a good guidance for people to make an informed decision. I'll keep to my 1.5t D or Bow Shackles as it's overkill but less likely to give me grief on interstate trips.

[@JustAskDave]

Robert thank you for doing what no one (for some bizarre reason) has done before and put an end to the arguments! I do like the Mawbe hooks design and that they are much smaller, but I can buy a dozen sets of appropriately rated D shackles for that price! Thank you again, very well researched and presented.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, none of the hooks are cost-effective compared to AS2741 shackles.

[@robyoung1890]

Well, I found this very interesting and thought provoking, but for those of us in South Australia (yes, there is such a place), there was no mention of our regulations. and that's a little sad as so much detail was provided for other states, even the Northern Territory. Thanks for your hard work bringing this info together, it was a really excellent presentation Robert!.

[@waxhead63]

Come on Rob we don't have caravans in SA nor do we tow anything .... with that we should be able to keep all the east coast caravaners away from our hidden gem

[@robyoung1890]

@@waxhead63 you are funny LOL. Very drole.

[@tungstentwohundredandtwent7007]

Great research & presentation. There are still a couple of aspects that amaze me about this subject. Having a look at a few brand new trailers before I built my own, the standard of welding the chains to the drawbar varied (visually) from average to shithouse. There doesn’t seem to be much checking of compliance on that point. I went the other way & used hammerlocks through holes in the the 10mm drawbar plate, no welding. At the vehicle end of the chains I’m running the yellow hooks with hammerlocks to the chain. I pointed all this out at the VicRoads inspection for the initial registration & it passed without question.

[@L2SFBC]

Well, AS4177 says you need 13mm chain, so that's what it is. I didn't want to complicate things with G100.

[@gregbuck9679]

Thank you Robert, I wish the authorities of all states and territories would watch this video. Then get together and put together 1 set of rules and regulations in simple English that we all understand. By the way another great video.

[@L2SFBC]

thanks Greg, please share

[@davidstephens1092]

That would be excellent but I really doubt that there would be any chance of them reaching an agreement. I hope they prove me wrong.

[@paulmartin7737]

Good luck getting all states to sing from the same hymn sheet, better get a flight plan ready for the pigs!

[@geofflines60]

Great video. Have you approached the Austrian govt for their comments on safety chains and shackles in tassie🤔

[@DerekMikolaj]

Thankyou Robert, you have cleared up some mud I went out and immediately checked my "Hooks" they are rated at 2000kg and 8000Kg breaking strength ! They are clearly stamped - so if I get pulled over -- it will be up to the cop to prove otherwise !

[@DerekMikolaj]

Where can I get one of these X things for shortening the extension rope ? that I saw in one of your other videos What is their correct name? please

[@davidrobinson990]

Quite simply,…..bloody well done Robert! You are always such a reliable source of information. Thank you.

[@L2SFBC]

Thank you kindly

[@Renegade040]

What it all and very informative. I have seen these yellow hooks regularly on American towing shows and thought these would make life a little easier when constantly hooking up and unhooking my van. Ok, people may say I'm a bit of a princess, but anything that makes my caravaning holiday simpler and easier, why not. I think I may give them a go.

[@jamesosborne218]

Thankyou for your knowledge and amazing presentation. The takeaway im getting is it is worth the extra 5 seconds to do up a shackle whick can accommodate multiple chain sizes but a hook cannot its limited to a matched chain size. I will continue to use correctly rated shackles, once again, thankyou for you amazing research and presentation on this issue!

[@L2SFBC]

Glad it was helpful!

[@desparky]

Robert, Thankyou for your meticulous approach as usual. I don't care for the look of hooks hanging off a tow bar, but I am also concerned that they would wear at the point of attachment of the tow bar when not in use. If I were to use them, I would prefer to have them connected permanently to the trailer chains. If I were attaching and removing a trailer several times a day, I would probably be more inclined to use hooks. However, for the extra time needed to simply screw up a shackle I'll just stick with them. Also, should I become involved in an accident where the trailer becomes detached from the vehicle, at least I am compliant with the recommended attachment method in every state. If this was to go to court for any reason, as you have pointed out, there are grey areas and ambiguities in the road rules. Lawyers would have a field day.

[@robkeith1776]

Fascinating Robert. Your video should be compulsory viewing by all who wish to tow a trailer. My pet hate - all who wish to tow a trailer should complete an approved course.

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks Rob, please share!

[@Okapimoja]

Great presentation and knowledge, thanks. I had previously read the Victorian regulations for shackles and found them very vague and also the regulations surrounding mirrors for towing, also vague. I have often wondered how strong the 6mm plate with a hole drilled in it on most towbars is, potentially the weakest link.

[@stoneyblack6905]

Chains welded to drawbars have issues as well! Some links have not enough weld on them, some welded links has been under cut in size by the weld, and some welded links are at right angle to the straight pull of the chain. There are so many factors from the tow bar to the trailer hitch that need considering!

[@JulietHotelFoxtrot]

The specificity of road safety in Australia appears to be magnitudes greater than here in the USA. For instance, the only legal requirement for me towing a trailer in my state (not a fifth wheel or truck bed mounted hitch) is that "it shall be coupled to the towing vehicle by means of a safety chain, cable or equivalent device in addition to the primary coupling device...." That's it. Hence, a law so loose the Facebook arguments would slide right through it.

[@L2SFBC]

Good point, thanks JHF

[@karlmeredith710]

just found your videos ,very informative and thorough , i have come up against similar things with ADR information but i don't believe a lot of the people that wrote them understand them ,and trying to get information from anyone or at least same answer from any two people is next to impossible

[@colinbreguet1359]

Great video Robert. Thanks for trying to show some clarity to a very confusing issue. To my mind some caravan manufacturers confuse the issue further by attaching their safety chains to caravan drawbars with hammer locks. From my perspective, being a structural steel fabricator I see this as an acceptable alternative to welding a link of a rated chain to the drawbar due to the welding process being highly likely to alter the metallurgy of the rated chain thus creating a weak point. Regards Colin.

[@graemegaerth14]

Totally agree Colin, this has been a bugbear of mine for years. At least with hammer locks the chain can be replaced.

[@peterrowe3509]

Totally professional analysis, Robert, and in complete contrast to the slack formulation of 80% of the regulations surrounding this important safety topic. Those regulations are SUPPOSED to guide safe practice! Instead, they make it extremely difficult for anyone to understand what they need to do, both for safety AND compliance. Your work here helps. Thank you!

[@L2SFBC]

:-)

[@stephenhunter70]

They are trying to convert what they probably think is legal English (Blacks law dictionary )to plain English with the results you are seeing.

[@tastiger91]

@@stephenhunter70 They don't know how to use english and maths now, not taught it like they used to.

[@Hemanfreeman536]

Great and detailed information. It’d be interesting to see what some insurance assessor’s would have to say. Ie; they might be the ones responsible for knocking back some insurance cover if an accident was caused due to an accident involving some of the connectors you’re referring to.

[@michaeldallimore8590]

Useful video many thanks. I was looking at the Mawby hook as I don't like those large hooks hanging down low all the time. I now know what to look for.

[@L2SFBC]

The Mawby is much smaller, the hook goes on the chain...only problem I see is the throat size for 13mm chain.

[@olivermorton9852]

I love how you are tearing these docs apart at the same time. Good job 😆

[@L2SFBC]

I went easy...they are poorly written. Vague and even some unforgivable errors.

[@GrahamPorter-u6e]

Thanks Robert, you cleared up a lot of confusion, I appreciate it. It annoys me that the so called Government authorities can cop out by not giving a definitive Yes or No as to the legalities of the shackles, it's almost like they do not want to commit themselves to an answer but Poli Speak instead. keep up the great Videos. Kindest Regards Graham

[@Tex260Z]

Hi Robert, thank you for your fantastic research, very nice to see some facts rather than Chinese whispers we usually find when researching this sort of stuff. So I went straight out and bought a set of Mawby Hooks for our pop top, (10mmm. chains). However, I came across a small issue on which your opinion would be appreciated. I have a Mercedes Benz SUV with an Australian made tow bar, unlike any vehicle I have had before the shackle point on the bar is horizontal, it does appear that this follows a pattern used in Europe where I can see trailer chain mounted hooks being mounted directly to the bar without a hammerlock shackle attachment. Using the the hammerlock with a horizontal mounting point seems to me to be a bit strange, and to my mind the more devices you have for the load to go through the more chances you have for a failure. I actually put the question to Dix Engineering and after a few days got a reply simply stating that they do all their testing with the hammerlock, and their installation instructions are based on that, end of story. Fair enough, but that doesn't answer the question of which is better from a pure engineering performance perspective, opinions please?

[@L2SFBC]

do you have a link to a photo?

[@nevillehyatt621]

Great video - I've just been through trying to ensure my boat trailer which has an aggregate mass of about 2.2 ton is legal the way it is setup, in South Australia - you have answered a lot of the questions I had even though you missed out SA in your summaries

[@slowboat6021]

thanks Robert really good over view of the situation. i fitted hooks to our tow cars recently and they make hooking up and unhitching so much easier.

[@shafmahar4974]

Thank you for recording these detailed guidance.

[@cyclemoto8744]

Great to see this presentation because I've had my suspicions about these hooks which appear to be increasing in popularity. Great idea for ease of use but I have not been prepared to switch due to the unknowns and not having had time to perform due diligence to confirm the legalities compared to rated old school shackles.

[@L2SFBC]

hopefully I saved you the trouble!

[@cyclemoto8744]

@@L2SFBC Indeed, thank you Robert

[@boxheadmr]

Thanks Robert for the work putting this together. Great video and the evidence base approach makes it some much simpler.

[@L2SFBC]

Glad it was helpful!

[@ianmac2963]

Once again, excellent info and presentation. Thank you Robert. Should be compulsory viewing for ALL who tow!

[@L2SFBC]

Thank you please share 🙏

[@fredscheerle7592]

Well done Robert, This Reminds my Of my Legal studies Schooling "As Clear As Mud In A Beer Bottle". It must have all been Written From Insurance Company's Stand Point! We were always told "Incitant until Proven Guilty" but It's really Your guilty till you can prove your incitant" '

[@brigeteking4298]

Thank you for your well informed video. You are the only reliable channel with the correct information and you go to lengths to prove it and explain it well. Could you please tell us if it is legal to carry petrol in jerry cans in the holders on the rear bar of a caravan. I can’t get a straight answer from Vic roads or my insurance company. Your help would be appreciated.

[@L2SFBC]

I have not researched that question sorry.

[@terryjongen7299]

Fabulous presentation. Cuts through the myths. Thank you

[@geoffwright7110]

a very good explanation for these joiners. I have some questions not touched upon, the attachment point on tow bars may be welded steel plate with holes, the material to the edge plus thickness has a design load limit due to shear and tear out. surely this is just as critical in the loading. Also hooks with spring closing clasps, may be subject to a roll out condition. this is explained in safety bulletins for working at height lanyard hooks. that is why they have locking clasps. question, if there are two chains, does this alter loading interpretation. Once again, a great presentation. cheers

[@NoFixedDestinationAu]

Thankyou for taking the time to investigate this issue.

[@L2SFBC]

You're welcome!

[@MrGundawindy]

The Victorian documentation is technically correct. You could use a bike lock or a piece of rope instead of a load rated shackle, as long as it meets the 1.5 x ATM ruling. Of course the bit they don't describe is how exactly you can prove that requirment is met with such an attachment. Also, as far as what it says are suitable shackles, that is relying on any of those suppliers being compliant with the law, which they may or may not be.

[@SkylinersYeti]

I am in the US but still Love your videos. I have always wondered is my safety chain set up strong enough? The question is it safe enough should consider the entire system, Connector to the trailer itself, the chain, the chain connector to the hitch, the hitch it self and how well is the hitch attached to the vehicle? Keep up the good work and help viewer THINK.

[@servicetrucker5564]

I’d be in trouble for sure because my chains don’t even have ends on them. My truck has banjo slots on the stinger crossbar that the chains drop into Edit- I was hoping you were going to mention grade 100 hardware. They’d be rated high enough. Also a 13mm chain on a trailer that size is kinda huge because I have a semi trailer dolly with two safety chains with hooks that size in grade 80 and it’s rated to carry 9100kg

[@davidcarter5012]

I wouldn’t use hammerlock fittings on a trailer. I’ve been working to 1.5 times the atm for years now, and it’s good to see my research borne out clearly.

[@AquaMarine1000]

Thanks Robert, for a great informative video. This reply is not to challenge the safety standards, but some life observations. At the point when a towed trailer becomes disconected, both the vehicle and trailer are travelling at the same speed. In this case, the vehicle and trailer should be slowly brought to rest. In my experience the chains have taken the towball weight. I know of a caravan a-frame fracture leaving only the LPG copper pipe connecting the two halves of the trailer chassis. Both the vehicle and van were brought safely to rest. I suggest the loading on the safety chains are minimal. These standards suggest they are taken from lifting standards, the overcoming the force of gravity. Gravity is a minimal force on vehicles through road gradient standards. It would be interesting to know how the regulators came to their trailer safety chain standards. Has there been any real world strain gauge tests? Cheers

[@L2SFBC]

Well, if you look at trailer sway crashes then there is significant force on the chains. I have no idea how the calculations were done to arrive at the figures in ADR62...only so much detail I could go into!

[@AquaMarine1000]

@L2SFBC Thanks for your reply. If this is the case, the towball coupling has failed. This should have a design review. Safety back-up devices should be of last resort.

[@Aphony66]

Personally I will not be using hammerlock hooks. My reason: When a caravan/trailer rolls it is expected that the forces acting on the hook would be expected to occur in more than 1 plane eg tensile load. I can safely assume that the forces acting on the hook would be expected to occur on at least 3 planes eg tensile load, side load and torsional loads. If the hammerlock hook were to bind, the torsional load exerted could encourage the hook to contort possibly opening the gate for the chain to slip out. This is less than ideal. A correctly rated and approved bow shackle has much less chance of allowing an opening to occur during a torsional load exerted upon it during towing in my humble opinion. I will stick with correctly rated bow shackles thank you.

[@petermiddo]

This conversation has popped up around the campfires recently, so I decided to find out the rules for myself. I tow a lot of different trailers, including campers and caravans and have an overwhelming compulsion to "follow the rules". I am Autistic, which means I'm unemployed (thanks to discrimination) and have all day, every day, so I emailed every State's road transport authority in the country. Obviously, I'm not important enough (or not a big enough journo or youtube star - a go at them, not at you) just as a member of the travelling public to warrant much of a response. Qld, NSW and Victoria where the only states to even respond. It's clear to me the other states value status over road safety, until you're pulled up on the side of the road with the cops/transport inspectors or in the morgue. My response from New South Wales, however was a bit tough to swallow. It road (and I'm paraphrasing here) that they don't have time to assess every option so have at it and if we think you're wrong, we'll go to court. Another state with a strong punitive focus. And not something I can afford to do. So kudos to you for, firstly, getting a response when us mere mortals can't, and secondly, explaining it in a way that's mere mortals can understand.

[@L2SFBC]

I love to hear from autistic people :-) Yes this video has done well and the authorities don't want me to say "I contacted them but got no reply". However, I don't like to take a combative approach. I want safety first, not sensationism and hopefully the authorities want the same so we can work together for a common goal.

[@middomaker]

​@@L2SFBC Well, I'm no stranger to off-roading and towing trailers. In 1979, my parents bought their 1st four wheel drive - a series III land rover they (and my uncle) rescued from a wreckers yard - and joined a four wheel drive club. Since that time, at age 7, I started driving four wheel drives along the beach and on the farm. In 1983, Dad, with the assistance of the 4wd club he was President of hosted several Four Wheel Drive "Field Days" in Ipswich, the last of which created such a traffic jam in the Ipswich area, the local Police OIC tapped Dad on the shoulder and ask him to, next time, let the police know so they could suitably arrange sufficient police on traffic duty. (Not to mention the News helicopters....) Around the same time, Dad and his good mate and our neighbour, held a series of meetings to write the first of the four wheel driver training manuals. AS a young fellow of around 12, this bloke would come around and train me in our sloped driveway. He figured that if I understood the material, then he could teach anyone (No one knew I was autistic back then, I was just the 'weird kid') Our mate and his wife were HEAVILY involved in setting up both the Qld and National Four Wheel Drive Associations and spread the driver training through both of those bodies. We are still friends with the wife, to this day. This mate came to me, not my father, for my input on the Sand Driving component of the driver training manuals so I rewrote it for them. I still love my four wheel driving and, in a relatively stock 4wd, can impress most comers. But it's not just about what I will tackle but what I won't I NEVER call myself an expert, though. Henry Ford basically said that experts stop learning and close their minds off to a great number of possibilities. And just isn't me. Autistic people don't have hobbies, we have next level obsessions. Four wheel driving, camping, and caravanning are my hobbies. But they're not just hobbies, they are literally therapy, somewhere where I can feel equal and my opinion counts.

[@L2SFBC]

I believe the term is 'special interests'? Oddly enough, back in 2002 I did a 4WD Victoria course, said "these manuals are rubbish i can do better", was challenged to do so, and did...maintained it for about 15 years thereafter.

[@petermiddo]

@@L2SFBC yeah, 'special interest' is how the neurotypical world wants us to describe it (make them feel better, i suspect) but obsession is far more accurate. Let's call a spade a spade. Oh, when dad and his mate wrote their 4wd manual, we were using wire rope and chains as our recovery apparatus. I've seen bullbars torn off vehicles and thrown into the scenery. Now we have snatch straps, soft shackles, maxtrax and synthetic ropes for our winches. You cannot stay still when technology advances. One of the best memes I've ever seen is "The illiterate of the 21st will not be those who can't read or write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn."

[@sirgregoir]

Hook has to have a double action to disengage, or I'm not using it. Do a rigging course, and you'll see how easily single action hooks come off.

[@jv7734]

Glad u cleared up shock loading and reason for SF (safety factor) but in ur analysis case "shackles for towing" makes me wonder ????? Correct me if im wrong ...but ... if ur ATM x 1.5 is greater than 1T than u need to upgrade ur shackle. Unfortunately u should never use any lifting , towing....or lashing gear to the Min Breaking Strength.....😂😂 By doing this u have taken the Safety Factor away prior to even starting to hitch up. The AS standard is a guide for the manufacturers which they must achieve as a bare min for products provided which manufacturers constantly test batches.. record results and in some cases provide proof test certs with their product indicating the serial no, load factor applied, some cases 2xWLL and date test was conducted. See I wouldnt expect a rigger to lift a 2T load with a 1T sling after reading AS 4497 which states the Slings MIn Breaking Strength or Safety Factor of 1:7😅 then calculates it to be 7T .....then Send it😊 I apologise if im wrong but one thing we both agree on is u need a bloody lawyer to understand the legislation or AS these days

[@L2SFBC]

You're wrong and right. In a hoisting situation the shackle is rated to 1t with a 6x safety factor. That's because hoisting is high risk. When it comes to horizontal pulls, and also lashing then the risk decreases and so does the safety factor. In effect for the towing application the authorities use a 0 safety factor for the rating - but, as that 0 factor is 1.5x ATM, there is a safety factor in there. On a 3500kg trailer with two chains you've got minimum 12,000kg breaking force. If you have a problem where you get even halfway to that figure then the breaking strength of the shackles is going to be the least of your problems. In short, it's not right to compare hoisting with anything else.

[@Shoot-all-day]

Don't risk using something that makes your fourby look tough, think about what your insurance company would look at if something does go wrong, we pay a small fortune for insurance and they look for any reason not to pay out when something does happen.

[@ianmoore4327]

I asked someone why did they fitted the hammerlocks and hooks. “ It stops the patrol owners from stealing my shackles all the time” 😂

[@snowgray6364]

Very well done, thank you Robert for all of your effort in this very informative video.

[@L2SFBC]

You are very welcome

[@stevep2073]

As Mr Pepper wisely says if somebody says something on the internet, ask for definitive proof. That’s exactly what I would have liked to see in this presentation. An individual’s interpretation is one thing but I would have liked to see the specific question asked of all State and Territory authorities and to see their responses. The video started by saying we well see ‘exactly what the authorities say about these yellow hooks”. Unless I missed it, I only saw that he asked Victoria and Queensland the specific question about the hooks. Victoria came back with a response that didn’t specifically answer the question. Mr Pepper then applied his own interpretation to their response and concluded that we “can imply from this they are in fact legal”. Part of the thinking seems to be that he’s “pretty sure they mean “e.g” instead of “i.e.”. This is all supposition and while it may well be valid, I would have preferred to see a definitive response from the authority. Queensland were more specific in their response. They said initially said “When connecting a safety chain, hooks with an open side or securing clip cannot be relied upon to retain the integrity and remain connected to the towing vehicle should the trailer detach”. When asked for further clarification, they said “it is technical legal to used closed hooks* as described, however it is strongly recommended they are not used. Using these hooks could be considered non-compliant with the other safety obligations referenced in our response, should an incident occur.” * The term “Closed hooks” was not defined, it was used in communications with TMR Qld. The summary includes none of this seemingly critical qualifying commentary. I know from my own enquiries of the authorities into this issue that the key concern is not so much the rated capacity of the devices but the latches. This is what sets these devices apart from shackles. This issue received little coverage relative to the capacity issue. I’ve got other concerns with the video but I’ll leave it there for now unless anyone wants further information.

[@L2SFBC]

Freel free to add your other concerns. I am glad you could differentiate between what the authorities said, and my interpretation as I hoped to make the two clear by showing the words I found and links to the documentation. Also note I did not claim to have succeeded in a written response from every authority, but in some cases the hooks were specifically mentioned as a valid solution so to me that counts as 'what they say' whether that be a direct question, or a clear statement in a regulation. I agree the concern seems to be the latches and mentioned that point. However, we are now into what is sensible and safe, vs what is legal and the two are sadly not quite the same.

[@stevep2073]

@@L2SFBC Putting aside the issue of need for proof of what constitutes 'legal' I personally see no reason why you wouldn't look for a hook that has been tested to AS4771.4 rather than any other standard. This, as you said is the next best thing to a relevant standard for safety chain connection devices. You concluded that the hook should meet a standard such as AS2741 or AS3776. AS2741 relates to shackles so I can't see how they could even apply. AS3776 relates to lifting and you clearly showed that some hooks don't fit well with towing chains. So to me, I'd only look at hooks that have been tested to AS4771.4. To my way of thinking it should be much easier to justify via the provisions of Circular 0-1-3 if called upon to do so. Also, I don't think enough coverage was given to the Mawby Hook. The method of attachment is different and they've been tested as combined unit. They fit together. No question. They've been tested to the (closest) relevant standard. No question. They're properly rated. No question. Sure, they don't fit 13mm chains but that's clearly covered in the specs and shouldn't come as a surprise. I may have missed the point but the whole ADR62/02 discussion lost me. As I see it this apply to the connectors to the draw bar end and has nothing to do with connectors to the car? I was generally concerned with the depth of coverage given to the issue of latches. This is the potential weak point. Sure you said make sure they're well made, inspected regularly etc but I'd like to think than a stronger position can be reached than words to the effect of "I've given you the information, it's up to the individual to decide". Again none of this was covered in the Summary. I know from own enquiries of the authrorities, the latch is the 'weak link' and the only one that I wrote to give me a Yes nod was Northern Territory. If as you say the 'closed' (external) type latch is better I would like to have seen this put to all relevant authorities for comment. PS I've obviously missed the point that some authorities mentioned hooks being a valid solution. Is that in the video or in the links?

[@L2SFBC]

Fair comments generally, thanks. Re the standards; again I'm going off what's legal vs what's sensible, maybe I didn't differentiate clearly enough. As for the Mawby Hook - nothing I saw say it wasn't suitable for 13mm chain, and it says it's rated for 3.5t ATM trailers which, according to 4177, must have 13mm chain. And they are bringing out a new version. It was not clear to me that they'd tested it to 1.5x 3.5t, so I called and asked, and they have. So, like every other company in this product space, I feel their packaging needs a bit of clarity. The ADR62 discussion - that's what specifies 1.5x ATM, and from there the regulations are drawn. As you say, I did cover the two types of latches...maybe I could have spent more time on it. As for questions to the authorities - always a problem with often a long time to answer, and when you do get an answer, it's often vague. I was surprised and pleased Queensland came back a second time, that's rare.

[@68peterbilt68]

After watching this, all I can say is welcome to the world of the heavy transport industry. I find it funny, and I know I shouldn't, amazing and downright astounding, that what transport has been dealing with for 50 + yrs, is being replicated when it comes to light vehicles. Ask any truck driver what it's like negotiating government rules from state to state? Even the NHVR can't sort it out. Surely the amount of money that is spent on these governments could be used to employ people who actually know what they're doing, and have a grasp of the workings of the job that they're employed to do. How about this, why don't we spend the money on training and licensing drivers who tow, just like truck drivers need to. At least that way people would have an idea of what they're doing. I have the spring hooks on my car. Haven't had a problem in 5 yrs. Yes, they're maintained. Having been a truck driver for 35 yrs, all I can say is education is key to maintaining a safe practice. As a qualified trainer and assessor, it blows me away how more people aren't killed. Ego and misinformation are totally unavoidable. Great video. Should be mandatory viewing for anyone towing. Then again, so should a licence. Truck on. 🤟😎👍🚛🚛🚛

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks loved reading that 👍✔️😁

[@andrewiannello6548]

Excellent summary 👌

[@bywayz]

Robert, any chance you could do a vid on bridging ladders? I've needed them many times, but instead had to turn back. As you know, taction boards are not the same. I appreciate your videos!

[@L2SFBC]

Look on my channel already touched on it

[@iamurage]

for you to research get you hand on the NSW guide for Rigging. This book lists all the relevant figures for lifting chains,wire slings, hooks, shackles. All to be used for lifting via cranes, winches lever blocks etc. This does not lay down any rules or guides for towing. Memory tells me one place they state never use lifting equipment for towing, because of the shock loading of equipment when towing.

[@L2SFBC]

I think that means "if it's been used for towing then don't use it for lifting ever again" not "you can never use anything designed for lifting for towing"

[@iamurage]

@@L2SFBC I stand corrected. I did not mean to deceive.

[@peterkovacs-qn3wz]

Hello Robert, Thank you for the research and indepth explanation. I'd like to have one question: what is the situation regarding the European style swiveling towbars? They have one safety chain connection point in the vertical centerline right below the ball. ADR 62 / 01 asks for two safety chain attachment points in 13.4.1, but regarding drawbars, it seems to be mandatory only above 2.5t (14.4.1.1.).

[@L2SFBC]

Sorry not familiar with those bars

[@stukaplane]

This is how all things should be with real facts, not how you feel like the current world system of wokeism. Thank you, Mr Pepper, for a very understanding explanation. I now feel confident in fitting my new Hammerlock and hook set.

[@jamesgeorge3900]

Very well presented. ADR means Australian Design Rule not NSW Design rule or Tasmanian Design Rule etc etc. These states shouldn’t even be interpreting these rules, It is just ADR, thats it. Rules are so ambiguous and like you say not written correctly.

[@L2SFBC]

Indeed, a simple copy-paste would work, or get in a room guys and agree ONE set of words!

[@Excitedtobehere]

Looking forward to this Robert 👍🏼

[@Jeffe01]

Great, funny, engaging and super detailed. Loved it. Only one confusing part for me: at 25:53 you note that G80 (or the 8 after the slash) is 1.12t WLL. Ok... so multiply X 4 and you get 4480 (not quite enough for your 3000kg caravan). But at 27:19 you show 2 hooks at 6mm/8 (G80) or 4480kg... but your third shot is still a G80, 7mm wide. Where does that change from 1120kg to 2000kg come in? Make sense?

[@soundman6645]

As far as load rated shackles Clearly the safest choice is a shackle intended for industrial lifting rated according to australian standards However there are shackles that manufacturers quote load ratings or breaking strains. For example marine stainless shackles and tow bar company branded shackles . THE ISSUE with all the alternate arrangements is that often they fail to restrain the drawbar from striking the ground. The safety chain arrangement MUST prevent the drawbar from striking the ground in the advent the coupling fails or comes off . The reason long link chain (not rated for lifting or load restraint) is permitted on light trailers is to allow adjustment of the chain length by putting the shackle thru other than the end link. Such that the drawbar does not strike the ground . Another problem with ALL these alternative arrangements is that the hardware must be used as the designer intended and according to 'correct practice'. . Most of these people using or promoting these alternative arrangements, probably have not read VSB01 or the ADRs, (which are feeely available) let alone the standards

[@colinross6259]

The wording leaving such big grey areas would be a defence lawyers clients get out of jail card in court. As a lawyer quoted, "I don't have to prove innocence, just reasonable doubt".

[@L2SFBC]

Would be interesting to see!

[@soundman6645]

It does not work that way. THE over riding principle is that you have a duty of care, if it fails and you did not make reasonable efforts to ensure safety, that makes YOU responsible for all the damages that happen next

[@colinross6259]

@@soundman6645 If the lawyer can semi-prove you did what you thought was enough legally by following ambiguous wording, I'm sure that would go a long way.

[@lexicase8805]

All these rules and regulations around chains and shackles being rated, but i wonder, most if not all of the trailers ive seen personally, have one end of the chain welded to the drawbar. Has anyone tested the chain after its been welded, and also the integrity of what its been welded to, and even more so, the integrity of the welds themselves? Id love to see a portion of drawbar and a portion of rated chain, welded just as it would be by a trailer manufacturer, and then break tested to see what breaks first. I would bet that the welded link of chain is the weakest link in the whole system.

[@paulsiebert4863]

Lot of these showing up on farm vehicles. Good reasons: short trips and time short. Caravanning? D shackles. They're lighter (?) for the same ratings, and if you're unhitching 10 - 30 minutes later, that'd be unusual.

[@99460895]

Have you covered linking (or daisy chaining) 2 shackles? There's a few websites that claim you can't use 2 shackles on the same chain (or link 2 shackles), but I haven't been able to back it up by any 'evidence'. Happy to be corrected but I don't see a problem, we can do it in lifting so why not towing? Had a few situations where a shackle is a pain to get on the towbar and it would be easy to leave another shackle on it to then link a shackle from the chain too. I know you could just use a hammer lock, but other options are always good.

[@L2SFBC]

There is nothing in the regulations I found that prohibits that setup. However be careful of chain length.

[@bryantaylor3154]

Robert. Can you advise if there are regs regarding the number of shackles and/or hammerlocks that can be attached to each caravan safety chain ? I have heard from an unreliable source that only one compliant shackle per safety chain is permitted . I have no information about how many hammerlocks are permitted on each safety chain.

[@L2SFBC]

I've not seen anything either way.

[@craighanham8120]

Thanks for the well researched and presented material.

[@L2SFBC]

Glad it was helpful!

[@robward7662]

Shackles made to most standards are made of a metal composite that has a reasonable plastic zone and do not work harden so it does not matter how many times they have been stressed / tugged / whatever, but as soon as they are out of shape or the pin does not fit smoothly they should be discarded. Also use 100 grade stuff.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed, I did say discard on shock load

[@robward7662]

@@L2SFBC the shock load doesn’t matter as long as no permanent deformation, but your vid fantastic applies equally to here in NZ.

[@davidperrott4502]

Your comment, ' it just makes things more complicated than they need to be', that just sums up the the stupidity of each of our seven states, why they cannot make uniform rules throughout Australia is just ridiculous. No hook (the hook end) should be hooked directly into chain or a hammerlock, they should always connect to a chain end fitting, either an Oblong link (or Link Chain End) or a shackle as connecting directly to a chain link will not allow full movement within the hook that can cause failure of the hook. Always an exception though which is a Grab Hook that is designed to connect to chain but not for this particular purpose.

[@tastiger91]

That's common for Tas gov regs. Follow national regulations, except for each of their individual interpretation.

[@andaroundwego]

Hey Robert, did you mention anywhere in here if you can use more than one shackle, as in if the chain is too short? I know you can't and that a Hammerlock is OK for this prupose and I have read it before, but someone just asked and for the life of me I could not find it! I assumed it was in either the ADR 62/02 or VSB-1, but its not mentioend in either. Was I dreaming?

[@L2SFBC]

Nothing I read says you can, or cannot.

[@kenlewis2353]

Hi Robert. A very well presented video very informative. Just a query Ok we have all our towing chains and shackles etc and they all are Australia Standard as you have just talked about. My question what certificate or standard applies when the safety chain is "WELDED" onto the Frame, this could be done by anyone and be almost impossible to keep track of.

[@L2SFBC]

Can't answer that sorry, didn't inspect those regs.

[@scotthoward4836]

Dont forget always use 2 x shackles a pair must be used. wonder how many trailers have actually broke a shackle as opposed other reasons for trailer disconnection.

[@stevegreen2432]

Amazing (??) ghat there can be so many variations between the States. makes it a bit hard for Interstate travellers. Legal in the home state and illegal next door!! It really is time that this country had totally uniform Traffic laws in all respects. Last time I checked Australia was one big Country.

[@stevereaver]

I really hope some of the people that write these terrible documents see this video.

[@aussie-all-the-way]

A South Aussie traffic cop once told me there are no laws in that state which mentions you even need rated D shackles. However, he went onto say if you are in an accident & the subsequent investigation proves it was caused by not using rated connections then you will be charged with using equipment (and I quote) "not fit for purpose". Talk about confusing, how on earth is the avge person suppose to understand? And I worked in the RV industry for 9 yrs!

[@L2SFBC]

He's actually exactly right and that's the point Qld TMR were making.

[@hannahranga]

Well that makes me feel vaguely better about having used soft shackles, wasn't worried about them snapping as they were 5t wll but wasn't sure what a copper would have throught.

[@kezzatries]

Great review of the subject. Queensland, western Australia, Tasmania, NSW and even northern territory, what about south Australia, always gets missed

[@L2SFBC]

See pinned post

[@kezzatries]

@@L2SFBC sorry where do I find that, didn't show up at the end, couldn't see it in the up arrow section..... I'm old...... My excuse..

[@L2SFBC]

It's a pinned comment in this comment section

[@markblocka24]

Hi Robert, If there are 2 chains would that not mean that the rating should not be halved. And the required rating be divided by 2 ??

[@L2SFBC]

No

[@teeanahera8949]

So (for Qld) a rated hook type shackle (with hammerlock pin) is legal unless it fails and then it is illegal.

[@L2SFBC]

yes!!!

[@chrisforgan731]

there is know need for rated shackles the rules only require a SUITABLE SIZED shackle. now if you go to the transport website and look up the safe towing guide it is recommended to use rated shackles. using a rated shackle is a easy way to know you have a suitable shackle. and if anyone tells you that they have to be painted a certain colour there dribbling utter shite. the working load is what the shackle is stamped with.

[@LouiseBye-y1n]

Thank you for the video. Like you we found our chain too big for the Mawby hook. Would it be legal to attach the hook to the chain with a D Shackle.

[@avid6186]

I didnt notice you mention attaching the chain to the trailer? Here (NZ) we are being told a shackle is not allowed and they are blaming the Australian regs for this. The trailer shown at the beginning of your video has a nice looking double shear bolted connection that I would be happy with. But I've come across instances where a shackle is not accepted, but a bolt in single shear with a stepped washer, through the same hole as the shackle was attached to, makes the authorities happy. From an engineering perspective I cant follow their reasoning. Have you looked into the chain connection at the trailer end? Your thoughts and guidance would definitely be appreciated.

[@L2SFBC]

No the video was long enough already, and the chain-to-trailer is one for the trailer makers not the owner-driver. Think there was something in AS4177 about it.

[@avid6186]

@@L2SFBCThanks for the reply. Maybe it's gone out of fashion in Australia, but here the owner/driver is often also the builder of the trailer and as such of course we have to know what the rules require.

[@jamesdigby-jones6960]

Hi Robert - Fab video. One question for clarity, so it's legal then to use two Hammerlocks with a hook on a chain as in 28:06 in the vid? The Hammerlock isn't counted as an extra connecting device?

[@peterfindlay5820]

Robert if I have a 6/8 hook so good to 4480 max ATM calculation figure but have 2 on my tow bar, and 2 chains on my caravan. Does this mean I can actually use the 2 hooks and associated chains up to 8960kg ATM tow capacity calculation which is 1.5 times 2 hooks, or is the capacity limit based on one chain, having the second being irrelevant for the max ATM calculation?

[@L2SFBC]

Each hook must be individually 1.5x ATM

[@dustyfarmer]

Those lifting hook latches aren't rated to carry a load where as shackles are an enclosed solid loop, load rated 100% around their entire body.

[@Bigcountry_littlelegs]

Would the ratings for the connectors be halved if there is 2 chains? Or has the wording been changed here?. The wording with vicroads goes back to older reg/doc where vic roads had non rated shackles and what thickness was required and same with chain size. Would need to do a heap of digging to find it again but was on there website back 2014/15 as went through this with work 😢

[@L2SFBC]

No, each connector is 1.5x ATM.

[@Bigcountry_littlelegs]

@L2SFBC cool thanks that's an update over the old vic roads one where they spread the atm over both chains

[@aussiewalkabout4x4]

great video but i have one question ... if the ATM is 3500 and multiplier is 1.5 [= 5250] should that connector shackle be rated to a WLL of 5250 instead of a breaking load limit ? maybe i missed something there in the regs

[@papa7745]

Thankyou for a very informative video backed up by regulations. A question on using 2 D shackles one attached to another. It is easier for me to have one shackle permanently attached to my motorhome to which I attach a second shackle. The trailer is a Dolly trailer towing a small car with ATM of 1.2 ton. Is it legal to use the 2 shackles attached together if they are AS2741, 1 ton shackles?

[@L2SFBC]

I don't see anything in the regulations precluding that, but nor do I see it explicitly permitted. I think it'd be hard to argue it is unsafe as the overall breaking strength of the chain system is within limits assuming chain and shackles are appropriately sized, so there's that.

[@plan_b_adv]

Great summary of a mostly confusing and misaligned piece of legislation. Are you able to offer any advice regarding one chain or two, I assume based on a trailers given ATM, and if in the case of a two chain trailer, is it ATM X 0.75 per chain or is each chain a 100% redundancy backup?

[@L2SFBC]

Each connector must be 1.5x ATM. You don't halve it for a two-chain trailer.

[@daverieck6352]

Awesome, Thanks you answered all my questions

[@L2SFBC]

Happy to help!