ARE WE GETTING DIVORCED??? The troubles with EDH and cEDH

[@DeltaFiend]

For the most part I agree with you, the important thing is for everyone to be on the same page through discussion. I'm not personally interested in playing at a highly competitive level but do watch some cEDH content every now and again and its pretty interesting to watch. The saddest thing is really the people being super toxic towards the "other crowd" just because they like to play at a different level.

[@AffinityForCommander]

Totally agree that player attitude is the most impactful factor for enjoyment! 😁

[@ptp1999]

As always, you are correct and i agree with you completely.

[@AffinityForCommander]

Great minds think alike! 😃

[@majinvegeta6364]

I think it's time we just made it official and banned winning in commander. Winning ruins the game for casual players and should only be allowed at cEDH tables. Also, using tutors, boardwipes, counterspells, wheels, infect, eldrazi, slivers, combos, blue mana, reserved list cards, or mana rocks that cost less than 3 mana makes you a bad person who should be permanently exiled from all LGS and playgroups.

[@robertfarrington2716]

I get this is satire, tongue in cheek with sarcasm. But in all honesty you don’t get anything more from winning a casual social card game. Just like you don’t lose anything more. I know I know if it isn’t about winning then why are we keeping score. Because eventually the game has to end. Hence the saying it’s not about winning or losing but how you play the game. With commander being the most popular format one has to remember their audience/the other participants who are part of the audience. Displeasing the audience won’t guarantee to garnish another audience.

[@majinvegeta6364]

​@robertfarrington2716 your entire position is based on a a false premise. A player does get something when they win a game of commander. They get experience, not just the experience of being a winner, but learning that they have mastered some aspect of the game that they were experimenting with when they built the deck. They gain proof of concept. They verify that they have solved the puzzle of how to make a cycling deck work, a self mill deck, a combo deck, a dragon deck, etc. They gain the confidence that they can keep up with players who have been doing this longer than they have. They gain respect from the ones who practice good sportsmanship, a dying art in EDH. They experience the thrill of realizing that their crazy creation was in fact based on a good idea. Being a perpetual people pleaser is a toxic mentality that only brings misery to yourself and others. Be kind, be honest, be a good sport, but don't spend your life obsessing over what other people think about you. It's not healthy, in EDH or any other part of life.

[@robertfarrington2716]

@@majinvegeta6364 Yeah you are correct that being selfish and self centered is a great non toxic experience. I shouldn’t base my false premise of being non selfish and non self centered. What in the world was I thinking ?

[@majinvegeta6364]

@@robertfarrington2716 now you are just gaslighting. Dude you are the problem. Please stop playing MTG

[@robertfarrington2716]

@@majinvegeta6364 lol now we can't handle the truth and feelings are hurt so lets resort to don't gaslight by telling the truth. It's so painful hearing about truth. I can't help it that some people can't wrap their head/brain around the word "Social" contract. It isn't about you, me and joe schmoe over there. It's about the entirety everyone in commander. It's been deemed the best format in mtg right now. The philosophy has an interesting part which to quote "relying on a social contract which each player is considerate (notice this word) of the experiences(notice how the word is plural and not single) of everyone (notice again how it is more than 1 person) involved. So it isn't about single individual experience(hence selfish and self centered) that it is about everyone's experience. That means the audience/players I so spoke of earlier. Commander is everything you want it to be but it is "everyone's" responsibility to explain inform everyone of the type of game they are looking for. So I suggest you stop playing magic because you sure aren't looking out for everyone's experience.

[@gerry2275]

i hate tassas oracle so much haha

[@AffinityForCommander]

As do many of us! 😆

[@curtissearle6462]

Fast mana and combos are this biggest dividing line for me those cards just don't belong in casual edh in most cases.

[@10Pugz]

Fast mana yes absolute fast mana is really a big point of Cedh but combos its really complicat. I think Combos got a place in edh too but not like oohh turn two kill everyone on the board i think combos are a vital strategie so you can play commanders which would normally have no way of winning or cant do enough Pressure.

[@curtissearle6462]

@@10Pugz oh ya I more mean like the cedh combos or the fast efficient 2 card combos. If you hit me with some sweet Rube Goldberg combo in regular edh I don't really care lol

[@DickCheneyXX]

Fast mana isn't banned in EDH thus belongs in EDH.

[@majinvegeta6364]

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes a deck cEDH vs high powered casual. It's an overly broad simplification of the format that loses relevant nuance. True cEDH, not the boogeyman that low power tables make it out to be, is primarily a theoretical format that exclusively uses the best cards, commanders, and win cons, regardless of price. Players from all over the world collaborate to fine tune the ultimate expression of a given strategy. High powered CASUAL EDH has a far more diverse metagame that includes decks, strategies, commanders, and win lines that have long since been pushed out of the cEDH meta. There are only around 50 viable cEDH decks, which compared to most games is a healthy / diverse meta. Whereas there are THOUSANDS of high powered EDH decks that can and often do include both fast mana and two card combos. High powered decks are built by one person, who granted may have taken inspiration from someone else's cool build, and are limited by the constraints of a player's budget / collection. I love high powered EDH because there's so much more room to explore, but to call every deck that works well cEDH is just poor sportsmanship. I never mislead my opponents. I always tell them exactly what my deck is looking to do and when I'm looking to do it. I even offer to help them brainstorm ideas to slow me down, but people seem to assume that I was just trash talking because they suddenly get very flustered when my deck does what I said it would. A better criteria to judge whether a deck is cEDH or high powered casual is if Mental Mistep is a staple or dead draw. This factors in the difference between what type of cards and strategies the deck is tuned to compete against.

[@dimitriid]

I'm not sure much can be done about it: casual players getting outpaced by increasingly more efficient cards as those decks approach cedh levels need to either adjust themselves or have constant 'Rule zero' conversations which honestly given how many videos we see almost every day about this topic it's just not going to work out. Conversely, if you try to ban Nadu or Thassa's from the entire format, cedh players now have a big enough community along with many tournaments that they would probably just essentially build a Rogue Commander Rules Committee (That was fun to say btw!). The reason being that the RC² would likely need to do a lot less work to divorce cedh from commander by just saying 'No, we don't agree: Nadu is back and while we're at it, bring back Coalition Victory and Golos too' as even if Nadu has decent conversion rates in cedh overall, it's nowhere near being mature enough to actually win tournaments yet: That's still overwhelmingly the tried and true decks: Tymna/Kraum, Rog/Si, etc. It hasn't changed other than Nadu getting enough wins to enter the top 16 lists but rarely actual tournament wins. So in the end, imho the commander rules committee needs to do a better job at communicating that they're not *just* overseeing casual commander but cedh as well to stop the endless crying about banning X or Y cards extremely prematurely or just actually start doing *SOMETHING* to build towards a more casual format they want to encourage: they might think their inaction makes them neutral but we all know it makes them heavily favor cedh against the interest of casual players all while preaching more about the casual side when their actions (Or in this case, lack thereof) indicate the opposite position anyway.

[@DickCheneyXX]

The rules comity should be disbanded and there should be no bans in EDH.

[@crovax1375]

I'd say that there's already a split between EDH AND cEDH and that's because of rule 0 discussion and gameplay expectations. I firmly believe that EDH/cEDH does not need a Rules Committe or ban list, because it's an unsanctioned fan format to begin with!

[@10Pugz]

OOOHh thats so naive. People need rules and restriction otherwise they doing stupid things and im mean really stupid thinks. Especially in a cardgame.

[@crovax1375]

@@10Pugz naive? The only thing that the RC and the ban list does is artificially control the price of cards. In fact the reason why the RC hasn't done anything to the ban list lately is because they were threatened with an insider trading lawsuit

[@dimitriid]

Search for 'Commander Rule Zero' or even just 'Commander' and you'll find an endless stream of years worth of videos just like this of people talking about having proper rule zero conversations, it is *CLEARLY NOT WORKING OUT* for most people because the reality is that people just don't have those conversations: They either play with a very close group of friends or get salty about losing and start looking to build said closed circle of friends to play against. The supposed community building of commander players is not a thing that happens outside of influencers, streamers and youtubers that actually vet their decks to craft their carefully staged friendly and funny games of commander, your average commander experience for new players will be someone buying a commander deck because they liked certain Universes Beyond property (A Fallout deck, Warhammer, LotR, etc. ) playing a few rounds with a friend then if they end up liking the format visiting a FLGS and get demolished by experienced players eventually. They will not be having rule zero conversations, they will be carefully self selecting into groups of newbies with the same experience level and similarly matched decks instead, that's the actual rule zero and it's not helping the format to just do nothing and expect brand new players to have enough experience to even know what cards to call out as not allowed that's never going to happen organically.

[@lugh.i]

​@@crovax1375(Mana) source?

[@DickCheneyXX]

@@10Pugz The RC serves no purpose.

[@BenLaakkonen]

No.

[@AffinityForCommander]

Care to elaborate why? 🙂

[@BenLaakkonen]

@@AffinityForCommander I'd used my words but at this point I'm tired of trying to explain to people that it's "okay," to win the game as efficiently and consistently as possible, every game. By separating the formats you're conceding the implication, "I'm a bad player and the only way I can enjoy playing this game is by remaining the same bad player with all the baggage associated with being a bad player including all the bad play patterns and game states I create while also being the most salty and unwelcoming person as possible." You're the reason I stopped playing in paper.

[@robertfarrington2716]

First the tournaments are non sanctioned so using that is where rule 0 comes in. Explaining to players the rules of a non sanctioned tournament is part of rule 0. Second commander is “competitive” in all aspects of commander so just drop the C and keep it as is called EDH (period). Third while it is competitive not everyone wants and needs to win at all costs especially in a “casual” environment. Besides you don’t win anything more or lose anything less playing a casual card game. I have yet to hear someone go to the top off the roof top telling the whole world that life is so great now cause they won at a casual game of cards. Or someone get so depressed they cried and need therapy cause they lost. It’s a game, get over yourselves

[@Ratchetfan321]

Cedh is not edh its simple as that. Get the c out of edh by removing those players from the format.

[@robertfarrington2716]

@@Ratchetfan321 You can’t remove them because of the casual format called commander that can be broken. It’s just every aspect has to be fully optimized from the choice of commander(s), to color identify, land base, mana cost and so forth. What some people forget to realize is the game is more than just about you. It’s also about your audience base which is usually the 3 others in your pod. Hence the social construct of the game. Trying to constantly change the construct into something it’s not like competitive and/or tournament style just hurts that aspect. I try to see EDH as a whole and not separate entities.

[@Ratchetfan321]

Their is zero drawback for edh players. Get rid of cedh out of edh it's simple they are a toxic parasite to the original format. If duel commander players can do it so can cedh. They just want to take EDH and make it their own instead.

[@john_wick272]

Post edit, and you still didn't correct their vs there... SHAME

[@scaredycat3146]

There is no way to design a edh banlist that would "get rid" of the cedh players though. It's the idea of "how can I win fastest/most consistent given the current ruleset" and it's a mindset that exists in literally all games with win conditions. It even still exists in rock-paper-scissors.

[@DickCheneyXX]

You just suck at EDH... There is no such thing as cedh.

[@DickCheneyXX]

@@scaredycat3146 The only ones complaining are the inept players. We can just ignore them.

[@Tuturial464]

Cedh is not true edh. It's way too much

[@merlintym1928]

What does this even mean

[@badenglish_84]

If you mean "too much" monetarily then I'll just point you to the fact that every tourney is 100% proxy friendly (outside of SCG events). Not sure if this is what you meant by too much.