The Truth About CEDH

[@Hatb0x]

We should shorten casual edh to cEDH when talking about it

[@thetrinketmage]

Thought about trying to work this into the vid as a joke but it just got confusing

[@humusmcgumus1394]

Genuinely when I started playing EDH, I thought that’s what people called casual EDH, cEDH, it’s why I used to be so against buying any cards to improve my decks lol (have you seen them prices?)

[@SwedeRacerDC]

While this is a joke, you must not realize why EDH exists and why cEDH is the proverbial "red-headed stepchild" to many of us. Casual is the reason for EDH. I'm happy cEDH exists though.

[@Knightfall8]

ive been doing this joke for about 4 years now: "Since so many cedh players are taking over the scene here, even at non-event tables, maybe we should make our own casual version of edh. We'll call it... Casual edh, or "cedh" for short!"

[@jjs8426]

Cdh- casual Cedh- competitive Edh- regular

[@BobJones-bg4ui]

I found Cedh non-tournament games nicer than Edh games. There’s no rule zero, because everything goes in Cedh. Everyone is willing to learn, zero salt as everyone choices to improve, games are super short, and misplays are so common that taking back an option on the stack is fine. Also, players in Cedh know how to threat assessment.

[@s.dalner7245]

cEDH does have a Rule 0. It just takes that conversation to a different conclusion than EDH. The result being "we play to win". The willingness to learn, threat assessment and amount of salt involved is determined more by the people you play with, rather than the actual format. There's plenty of salt to reap in other just as competitive formats. The length of games is entirely up to preference. Take-backs are expected to be more common in Casual, as winning isn't the priority, but yeah, I don't prefer them either.

[@Cedric1234_]

Never had any salt or anything from a c pod. People just playing the game likes it a 60card format lol

[@Lorry_Draws]

@@s.dalner7245I wouldn’t say ‘playing to win’ is a rule zero, I think that’s just the nature of any game. If someone is playing to lose, they’re just wasting everyone else’s time.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

I dunno man playing against someone that actually knows how to play a stax deck is pretty salt inducing

[@ich3730]

@@Lorry_Draws "Playing to win" is a rule 0 question, because many casual EDH players dont play to win. They play to "do their thing". The actual factual winner of the game of magic does not matter in the slightest to them.

[@CharlotteMimic]

LMAO at Empty-Shrine Kannushi and Argentum Masticore For the curious: -Kanuushi is for the Mono-White Initiative mirror, where it is the cheapest pro-white creature you can play. It steals the initiative unblockably, and it blocks pretty well too (doesn't block Archon of Emeria or Seasoned Dungeoneer, but everything else) -Masticore is an artifact that kills artifact hate, so you can cast it off of Mishra's Workshop + Ancient Tomb and then destroy the Null Rod or Stony Silence or Collector Ouphe that is disabling your whole deck.

[@Jundsac]

Lmao I could not imagine what that Kanuushi was for, that makes so much sense. I was scratching my head

[@__8120]

cEDH being so friendly to proxies because they want to see the absolute limit of a deck feels a lot like the spirit behind TASing

[@matthewmoran1866]

I quite like it because the financial aspect of mtg is legitimately the most off-putting thing about the game to me as a new player. I don't want to invest myself in a pay to win game, but if I can just proxy cards I want to try rather than having to shell out real money, then it's a totally different story.

[@Macwylee]

If you can't afford the card then you don't belong here, and this game isnt for you.... Full stop. If you can't afford a $40 card then you have large problems in your life that you need to address.

[@christian-zt8du]

@@matthewmoran1866 as someone who owns and runs a 6k deck, pls proxy. I'm a collector, NOBODY should be forced into finical investments unless they want to just to play a game at an equal level.

[@atomicbamboo2453]

@@Macwyleeone $40 card isn't the problem, it's several pieces of cardboard worth $40 that you apparently "need" to play a literal game for fun. Using real magic cards is fun (and they're usually better made than proxies) but cmon man

[@Macwylee]

@atomicbamboo2453 if you can't afford several $40 cards, then you have much larger problems in your life that require your attention.

[@varsoonhks3211]

You ever drop propaganda so hard that creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays 2

[@20x20]

magic is a fun game. edh is a way to have fun. all formats are ways to have fun, at their hearts. cedh is a constructed format where the fun is in winning no matter the method to do so, and can then be a puzzle that the table helps solve (or so i've heard about friendly tables of it). casual edh is a format where the fun is *having your deck do a thing in a certain way*. this is meant to be a different social experience, but is still meant to be fun. i don't want my definition to be misunderstood - casual edh is still played to be won, but that's technically not the primary goal - it's to "do the thing". if that thing ends up causing a win, that's fine, but your primary goal was the journey, not the destination.

[@dangelobenjamin]

Interesting take. Competitive vs casual is a player mindset thing versus a format. The formats get their name from the players. Idk if you knew but MTG and game designers use made up names for players they expect to behave casually vs Competitively. Timmy is casual, just wants to do the thing and socialize. Versus Spike is happier at a table where the goal is more puzzle like combo, the socializing is contained to the goal.

[@souleater4242564kodd]

Almost like the journey is all that actually matters because the destination is meaningless nonsense, who cares if you lose or win

[@michelemichienzi934]

We just need smogon tiers for edh. So cEDH is basically ubers and you get to know what to expect based on the experice you are after but faster

[@Taeerom]

This is actually a great idea, hope it can be implemented in a way that doesn't suck. Pokemon is a fun game, especially in the RU and NU tiers where you try to do anything worthwhile with unevolved good mons and absolute trash mons. But it is still a healthy and competitive environment. A bit like what you get from Pauper (especially degenerate stuff like Pauper Block Constructed) or Penny Dreadful. But the restrictions are purely based on usage stats (aka perceived power), rather than budget or vibes.

[@danteclavere4559]

I find that I have more fun in CEDH pods because everyone is on the same page, power level wise. The sliding scale of casual to competitive in commander is a chasm, and that leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation of power levels.

[@Jundsac]

Well put

[@PortalMasterStudios]

The biggest takeaway from this (and a lot of your videos) is casual players need to run way more removal

[@breyor1]

“Always has be..”

[@MrCenturion13]

You're not wrong.

[@vileluca]

Removal doesnt help when someone starts with fast mana before youve gotten a chance to play a land.

[@PortalMasterStudios]

@@vileluca okay but in cedh everyone has the fast mana hence the proxies

[@thetrinketmage]

This is why the removal is usually 0 or 1 mana interaction. But also at most casual tables you don’t “need” the removal till a few turns later so it’s more about having enough to consistently have access to the removal by turn 4 or 5 ish

[@arikhostetler3013]

"Imagine we ban dockside extortionist"

[@zeke6265]

This doesn’t age well with the recent bannings lol. But overall gist of what cedh is, are still on point for me. Great explaination overall.

[@SelloutMillionare]

EDH is generally more fun when players have a general understanding of the power level of the decks in the game, so that they can bring a deck of similar power.

[@patstevenswhohatesbuttermi5861]

I kind of want to publish a guide for power levels. I think the issue tends to be more that people overrate their own decks rather than other players underrating theirs. That's not to say there aren't predatory gamers who lie about their decks to get wins (which is a weird thing to do when there's absolutely nothing at stake). Everyone wants to think their cool deck they put a lot of thought into is a 7, when it's probably more objectively a 4 or 5. Not a bad deck, but it just requires more setup and ideal circumstances to go off.

[@Jacob-km4yb]

A lot of edh games even within the same power level can just be snowball games where someone's 7 gets the nuts leading to others feeling like the snowballing deck is stronger than it actually is leading to bad feels one of the many problems with "casual" edh

[@unanon_user]

I usually offer to let the other players in my pot look at my deck list. because, in my general opinion, it won't give them that big of an advantage. but even if it does, at least they know I'm being honest and I can live with that

[@wesleywafer1587]

Empty Shrine Kannushi is usually played in Mono-White Initiative decks for the mirror, in which it's a virtually impossible to remove threat that can both use it's protection to steal the Initiative and protect it. While I believe Argentum Masticore is played in Shops, because honestly you can slam any artifact in Shops and it won't look too unreasonable, but it's particularly good at destroying anti artifact staxs pieces (Nullrod / Collector Ouphe) while still fitting the decks constraints of being an artifact that you can use a Workshop to power out.

[@wazzledog1007]

Thank you! I was dying of curiosity.

[@MrTylerMatyas]

God bless, I had to know

[@Jacob-km4yb]

I was gonna explain it but you did great 👍 so no need

[@jeremybartlett2396]

I also read that it's used because its a threat that can't be stolen by Dack Fayden.

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

I recently joined a cedh pod on Untap and it is super fun. No salt, just strong and intelligent play. And when a storm deck wins on turn 2 good for them. I will get them next time

[@Narutocjw]

Counter point to playing cEDH, I want to play trashy / jank cards rather than the strongest cards in all existence. Nothing cooler than finding a common / rare card that perfectly fits your build to stay on theme / goal of the deck.

[@ry7hym]

you can still do that in cEDH. there's some wiggle room in meta decks

[@massx999]

​@@ry7hymmuch less wiggle room than casual

[@DanielCotillo]

You can. Don't expect to win with those, but you can have fun while accepting the fact you won't win most of the time.

[@zeroisnine]

​@@massx999i mean, technically there's all the wiggle room you want, you're just gonna lose

[@leadpaintchips9461]

@@DanielCotillo So playing a non-competitive deck in a competitive format? Isn't that what casual games are for?

[@ryanmann5497]

While I get what you’re saying at 3:28, it’s really easy to ignore what it means when people say that commander is the ‘for fun’ format… that isn’t to say that other formats aren’t fun, I’m sure the groups wouldn’t be as big as they are if it weren’t fun for them to be there. In this case, ‘for fun’ simply means ‘play whatever you want without taking matchups into account’, you build whatever is fun for you, I build whatever is fun for me, and we see who wins in a 4 player format (this just happens to be the polar opposite of every other format 😒)

[@sungodniku]

Yeah I think his point was a real miss there Casual commander being the 'for fun' format is more about the goal of the gamestate. When I play Modern with my friends, we're having fun by trying to beat each other as efficiently as possible / making the best plays available each turn, where casual commander differs is that often times it's more fun to play something that will cause a funny gamestate, and give enjoyment to all, rather than to simply make the best possible play each turn and win with efficiency.

[@surtrgaming1730]

Ryan, I agree with you. My experience with Commander was a bit unfortunate personally. If you or anyone else wants to read and tell me if it's common or what I did wrong, please go ahead. So, I was sold Commander on the basis of "play what you want". I took the chance to try a hand control deck focused on playing discard effects to keep people's hands low on cards and using cards that punish players with a low amount of cards in hand. And some people got upset with that, and didn't want me to play that deck again. Then, I went back to my Yu-Gi-Oh roots. Negating (or to use MTG terms, Countering) 4 spells in 2 turns isn't that uncommon for me, so I played a Blue deck with high amounts of negate. And people got upset. So, I played a Red deck. And my favourite card in Red is Worldfire. "Exile all permanents (including lands). Exile all cards from hands and graveyards. Each player's Life total becomes 1." It's so over the top and I love it. But again, people got upset... People got upset with me on 3 separate occasions, because I played things I wanted to play in a "play what you want" format. I was just confused and stopped trying to play Commander with these people, but I don't get why they got so upset about me playing what I wanted to play in this "play what you want" format they sold me.

[@ryanmann5497]

@@surtrgaming1730 I wouldn’t say you did anything wrong at all. You can absolutely play what you want, however every play group has its own expectations for a game… some play groups enjoy the type of heavy interaction gameplay you’re describing… others not so much. Unfortunately there are 3 major types of playstyles that people don’t enjoy, decks that are counter/removal heavy, mill decks, and decks that try to out lands are typically not well received.. and those happen to be the decks you enjoy… the trick is to find a play group that’s good for you and your play style. If you insist on playing with this specific group (maybe they’re your friends?) then it might be a good idea to talk to them about what they dislike and try to come to a mutual middle ground going forward… although if they want to just flat out stop you from playing what you enjoy then you might be better off finding another group… no one should tell you what you can and cannot play. Being on good or friendly terms with is ideal but you can always make friends with a new play group if needed 👍 I’ve been in a few playgroups that I left because they kept getting more into the super competitive side and that wasn’t for me, I don’t mind what others play but I tend to stick around the borderline between casual and high power without making my decks hyper consistent (the main determining factor in any super competitive game) and I prefer to be in a group that is at least somewhat similar to me in that regard, nowadays it’s pretty rare for me to be dissatisfied with a game whether I win or lose, I get to just have fun playing what I want and winning sometimes and losing sometimes 😊

[@ImRottenInside]

​@@ryanmann5497 He's just trolling and mentioned those decks on purpose knowing full well that most people don't enjoy playing against those kinds of decks, the whole reason he said all that was to try and say "it's play what you want but I can't play what I WANT so that's a lie"

[@webbc99]

@@surtrgaming1730 I think one of the points the OP is missing is that a fundamental part of casual EDH is building decks that are fun for everyone, not just you. That is actually the greatest success of any deck, if it's fun to play against and fun to play, then you have succeeded.

[@thefluffymunchkin5430]

Kinnan is actually one of the top decks in the format and gets around a lot of the complaints people have! Some decks even get to run expensive fatties like Void Winnower. There is definitely variety in cEDH it's just slightly commander dependent.

[@christopherpatricklizares5306]

I'm three minutes into the video, and I can say with absolute certainty: I'm a cEDH player, and I'm very certain I don't think I'm wrong about cEDH. Seriously though, I'm glad you took the time to make this video, and definitely looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Love your work!

[@christopherpatricklizares5306]

Loved it! And as a stax-player, myself, I can agree that stax is in a difficult place right now. Surprisingly, it's because the meta is healthy, which I think is a great thing for the community as a whole, so I still consider it a win in my book. Instead I've found myself only playing stax decks that can survive in a healthy meta, and even then I can't expect to be able to stop everything. There's just too much going on these days to be able to do that. I also agree on the brewer's paradise bit. It's surprising just how much room for expression there is in cEDH once you've got a good idea of what you need in decks to make them be able to survive long enough to be able to do the thing. Cheers, man!

[@grillburgerdaq5121]

When people say edh is”for fun” they aren’t saying cedh isn’t “for fun”. What they mean is cedh prioritizes winning above all else, while edh prioritizes “fun.” And by fun they mean “this deck holds to a certain theme, wins a certain way, and works at a fair pace.” Nobody’s saying cedh isn’t fun. Just that cedh has different values. The fun is in winning, or in trying to win. Not in “let’s make this strategy work.”

[@vittoriosavian9964]

And i dont think that its true either. Its all up to the players, not the format.

[@archdruidman3493]

Idk, I’d say cedh is for fun, just goes about it in a different way. While casual *might* be about building a jank deck and having fun that way, cedh *might* be about figuring out the best possible ways to win quickly, and building your deck almost like a puzzle to solve. Another point is that the gameplay is completely, and I mean completely, different between the two, which makes it fun for almost everyone playing it as they try and navigate everyone board states, who has counter magic up, etc.

[@vasylpark2149]

Exactly.

[@zamangwanezikhali1052]

Cedh's "fun is in winning, or in trying to win. Not in “let’s make this strategy work.” " . This was worded perfectly!! A lot of people who play cedh decks are very dishonest about this and try guilt casual players. Of course winning is nice but not everyone is trying to win at all costs, there's joy is seeing how you or your friend's decks work and pop-off, you know that they would never work in a competitive setting but thats okay. The entry barrier into to Magic seems to be getting higher and higher with every new set release because of prices and power creep so the guilt tripping that edh players get is frustrating because its a lot easier for someone who can build cedh decks to make an edh one versus the other way around.

[@Tal-br7ht]

@@zamangwanezikhali1052 People build jank in CEDH all the time. There is a level of enjoyment that can be found in trying to make and seeing an offbrand strategy work in a harsh, challenging environment. CEDH's appeal isn't about wanting to win at all costs. It's an environment with very clear expectations and not having to deal with the awkwardness of unclear social boundaries. If everyone is agreeing to play CEDH, then no punches are pulled, no social expectations are held, no one is going to complain about what you put in your deck or what cards you play or include. I've had much easier social experiences in CEDH than in most games of casual EDH because I don't have to explain why I have to remove a threat or someone trying to guilt trip me into not doing an efficient play or why I'm running a strategy. Heck, the only time I've had a table literally yell at me and tell me to stop playing is at the "casual" tables who never communicated they didn't like flash creatures.

[@deathsmbrace]

You forgot about a very important archetype in cEDH: Midrange. (since cEDH is in midrange hell right now)

[@thetrinketmage]

I would consider midrange and control interchangeable in cEDH

[@SDTCG]

I don't understand why everyone is calling it "Midrange Hell". Like, do you want things to be dominated by slow control/stax or have every person present wins on turn 2/3? I love the midrange meta.

[@Frogleeoh]

@@SDTCG I generally prefer midrange style games, and have always felt competitive ends of tcg spectrums have mostly had a criminal lack of midrange viability due to not being able to out pace aggro nor having the power to breakthrough/prevent control while still maintaining their midrange status

[@moshjoshpitchief4418]

@@SDTCG i think the hell has to do with the stagnation war of attrition based around whoever lands a mystic remora, or a rhystic study or a turn 1 kraum while orcish bowmaster players shoot all the dorks and let the blue farm player win the game.

[@SDTCG]

@@moshjoshpitchief4418 Yea but if the OBM player is pinging dorks while blue farm has a draw engine then that's the OBM player's fault, not the blue farm player's. They should be hitting the blue farm player to limit their Ad Naus or Necropotence lines. Ultimately I think the biggest problem in cEDH is greedy players and poor threat assessment. The decks that do well are the ones who can punish that.

[@kormit-b9x]

My favorite part of cEDH is that the lack of Rule Zero and in-it-to-win-it mentality means I get to be really mean and watch my friends be really mean. Making plays that are the Magic equivalent of kicking a puppy (i.e. flashing in a Bowmasters with a Wheel of Fortune on the stack) is what I live for. Plus, the fact that I can play the new Etali and be able to get the big dino out turn 3 is really satisfying to my inner Timmy.

[@themonsoon117]

IMO, Mean is playing beamtown bullies/Lightpaws over and over and focusing down one player every single time out of spite or running 40 removal/control spells and focusing someone down even when someone else is going to win without intervention. Using bowmasters on a wheel of fortune is simply good play. It lets you dominate the board or chunk someone who's been playing while using their life total. That's for an advantage, not to be mean.

[@bobthor9647]

Back in the old days we called that strategy. Now people cry when you make a good play because it's not "fun"

[@andrewkelly1337]

CEDH is about taking a 100 card, singleton format and absolutely raking the flavor those limitations were originally instilled to create over the coals to make as certain as possible that you're playing the exact same cards on the exact same turn like every time, sooooo fun and different from 60 card formats.

[@mishasforza5969]

This. OMFG. You have no idea how much i hate these m***ns. Sweating their ass off with the most tasteless shit ever and calling it "fun". Yeah sure. These losers just need a win in their life, for once

[@wchenful]

Yeah ... comments like this generally come from players who have zero cEDH experience 🤡 Ignorance is bliss.

[@mangohavoc6428]

Let the hate flow through you

[@Tyke-Myson]

This is a very well thought out argument that I pretty much agree with wholeheartedly, and yet, it doesnt make pushing up into CEDH any more appealing. For my pod and I, and basically everyone I've met who enjoys the format, Commander is the format where we get to flex creative muscles and silly pet cards that have no home. We have formats like Modern and Pioneer that are excellent competitive outlets that dont come with the same built in hiccups that edh bakes into its rules set.

[@ARK-ep4bb]

Nice video. Well said and explained. I used to play cEDH around 2 years ago and unfortunately the meta just wasn’t for me. I hope some players give it a chance.

[@ARK-ep4bb]

I specifically played Kenrith Hermit Druid even got it onto the database though I’m sure it’s been moved by now.

[@Nyxianmeows]

The meta has severely shifted in the advent of orcish bowmasters, you should totally check it out!

[@DorkAndFriends]

CEDH is how I felt when syncro and xyrd summons were introduced into YuGiOh. The powercreep on cards are becoming notoriously harder to deal with. A card 12 years ago wrote something like this. "Pay A Red and 1 of any, return a land from your field to your hand and a land from your opponent's field to their hand." While not overly powerful for a 2 mana it still has some utility if you pair it with other cards. If I were to reprint that same card in today's climate, it would read something like this. "Pay A red and X. Return 1 land you control to your hand, for each mana paid exile X lands from opponents field. Additionally, if you paid 5 or more total opponent must exile 5 cards from the top of their library. If opponent exiles a land, you may play that land this turn. Also, this card has flashback 3. Fuck you."

[@lunah33]

They dont make cards with downsides anymore :/

[@LostTimeHero]

Should have ended it with "Also this card has fuck you 3" Better punchline

[@MomirsLabTech]

This implies these same cards aren't being played in "casual" environments, when they are.

[@melr.5492]

Honestly this is one of my favorite videos you've done! I enjoy both casual and cEDH and it always bothers me how people misunderstand (and sometimes misrepresent) what cEDH is all about, and I think you captured it well. From reading some of these comments tho I hope people give the video another watch because the intent here was clearly to promote cEDH and not to bash on others' tastes.

[@DragonmasterSK]

My Best deck with the best Win ratio is Breya. However I vividly remember a buddy of mine going off turn 1 with a Food chain set up where he said: " If you guys don't do anything I win next turn" and I hadn't even played a land 😂😂😂

[@MageSkeleton]

Ah yes, Breya, Etherium Shaper. The one commander that demands Lions Eye Diamond to function. There are a handful of commander options that can achieve winning on turn one including every deck with access to Dimir colors as the Thassa's Oracle combo realistically only requires access to one black mana and two blue mana and having two specific cards in your hand, or an additional any mana if Tainted Pact instead of Demonic Consultation. Also, players don't play Food Chain like that unless their asking to lose.

[@DragonmasterSK]

@@MageSkeleton Yeah, he didn't win actually. But I remember being so scared 😂😂😂

[@baka030hydroid]

Personally I like fighting in a "cedh" pod with my "not cedh" decks, because really the difference is that the decks are good and people run interaction in their decks instead of just "synergy" walls. So just by running interaction, my "not cedh" deck can turn a fast game into a grindy one, despite having no crazy combos or expensive fast mana

[@SeriosSkies92]

tbf the thoracle player usually solves themselves with their own esper sentinel or talion. totally not speaking from experience or anything. xD

[@MageSkeleton]

Lol, the difference between "may draw" and "draw." Saw someone doing the combo lose to their own Kraum commander trigger.

[@dylanpayne6040]

I've been playing cEDH for a while at my LGS. It's a pretty modest group (usually the same 4-8 players), but the games are really fun. People swapping decks around since the staples move around so easily, different matchups leading to many varied gamestates, and some of the most intricate stacks of people going for wins. To go toward the "cEDH has complicated stacks" thing, I played a game recently where a rogsi player had a 30-minute turn of multiple win attempts and an Ardenn/Thrasios player cracking emergence zone for 2 win attempts over the rogsi player

[@Marcosomos]

cEDH is not a format, it's a style of players. There are no cEDH decks, there are cEDH players. If a friend wants to test in my group a deck highly tune for maximum winning chance we will allow it at least one time, for fun.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

No, cEDH is a power level, there are cEDH decks, and trying to claim otherwise is laughable

[@teslajeff1355]

I've been trying to tell people this for so long. I'm glad I can now just send them a video instead of sitting stumbling while explaining cEDH to people.

[@MageSkeleton]

Just tell your friends "The more consistent your deck is, the more competitive it is."

[@Omegaman4321]

I'm so thankful that my best bud and I managed to find 2 other players to get a weekly consistent cedh pod to fire at our lgs, and through that more people have seen us play, and have gotten very curious about our games

[@Jundsac]

Great video, as always. I think the quote about complex boardstates and complex stacks is a testament to the speed and pacing of the format. Players will cast, remove, and counter game-deciding cards on the first 3 turns of the game (Blue farm might cast a turn 1 rhystic study, rogsi might cast a turn 1 necropotence). There's a higher number of dangerous plays and appropriate reactive spells. The time frame that it takes to finish a game is much shorter, which players tend to like. I think other players would enjoy cEDH if they; are willing to learn, want to play with, and against very powerful cards, and enjoy a much faster pace than more casual tables.

[@kendowarrior99]

One of my formative magic experiences was going to gencon in 2003 since I lived in Indianapolis at the time and wanting to enter a magic tournament, but since my only constructed deck was kitchen table jank using cards going back to Urza's block I realized that the only constructed tournament I could enter was Type 1 since it didn't have a restriction on what sets were allowed. I was essentially playing casual vintage against people with Black Lotus and turn 1 storm kills.

[@tylergillian4047]

This channel is great I won't lie. You give a very different perspective than other, perhaps more sensationalized videos on magic. Additionally, you explain things in ways that make some more niche, or scary concepts much more approachable and easily parsed. Glad I found it.

[@170skeith]

The best rule of Commander is to adjust the game to whatever works best for everyone in your group. My group allows proxies because one of us loves making proxies and we want the game to be accessible to anyone who wants to join us. We usually have at least 8 running 2 games and occasionally all 12 of us are available to play so we run 3 games theres always at least 1 group of people who want to play more competitively so they get the chance to do so because we make it easier for people to join us. Our mulligan is drawing 7 each time but putting back the other cards like draw 7 keep 6 draw 7 keep 5 etc. CEDH is fun sure I enjoy it occasionally but at the end of the day it's a format best played in whatever way is most enjoyable for you and your group

[@MageSkeleton]

Sometimes, you find people who only finds "enjoyment" playing the game via "Watch me win the game and don't do anything to disrupt what i'm doing until i draw what i want to win the game with as my ability to "draw a card" is only the draw step of each turn." And making this person "upset" that they didn't get to win the game, they tell their friends lies about you and suddenly your being reported for things you never did. i wish i was joking.

[@maxagabon18]

thank you! many a cEDH player is interested in playing magic at the highest level. I think that is why we make a distinction of being a pilot moreso that being the person who built a list moreso than other formats. Many of us are not even concerned about being the winner moreso than did I pilot this deck/list the best that I could have in this given situation.

[@CrisMW98]

6:24 dude by this logic we wouldn't have to ban anything anywhere because something would always rise up to fill the void. What?

[@justass3001]

Well this logic works for commander, because they supposedly don’t ban on power level. If you only ban stuff that makes games ‘unfun’, then you can leave the most powerful stuff on the table as long as it doesn’t fit the ‘unfun’ criteria

[@wbw911]

well you just point out the Rules Committee cause like it or not the ban list was never meant to be a consistent way to maintain a healthy meta

[@robertomacetti7069]

That's literally his point

[@thetrinketmage]

Because the edh ban list is for fun not competition so they don’t ban on power supposedly. Based on the RC’s guidelines you can argue nothing should be banned and cEDH would still be cEDH

[@babaganoush4046]

Just another bad faith cope argument.

[@LinksCow1]

Fantastic explanation as always! Personally, I love cEDH and the midrange meta is something I find very enjoyable.

[@Meichrob7]

At one point in time I discussed an idea with my friends about formalizing the “deck power level” classification of EDH decks. The idea was to use a similar system to smogon/showdon for pokemon, where usage rates dictate meta viability, and a group of informed players can further suggest specific “bans” in their specific tier and the community as a whole can weigh in. This works in Pokemon and I believe it would work in most magic formats. The reason it works is, to roughly wuote Freezai, “Because we assume most people play to win, so the best options get picked the most often.” In Pokemon singles on smogon, this is roughly true. In a lot of magic formats, I’d say this is roughly true. In commander, I don’t think this would at all reflect the actual viability of cards. If you look at the difference in the edhrec rank of a card vs how viable it is in cEDH, you’ll see that there SOME overlap, but not nearly as much as you’d need to say that you can look at a cards play rate to roughly estimate its power. While that’s the case for the EDH format as a whole, I don’t believe that’s as true for cEDH. I think if you looked at cEDH decks and tried to compare the usage rates of specific cards or strategies to their power, I believe you’d see a much stronger relationship between the two. This, to me, shows a fundamental difference in deck building and play-style. It’s what makes EDH a “for fun” format, and what makes cEDH not a “for fun” format (even if people do in fact have fun playing it).

[@thetrinketmage]

Interesting I do really like how smogon handles bans and it does make the formats feel pretty balanced. Though I’m not sure it really translates to mtg in the same way. I see your point though!

[@MageSkeleton]

i feel like this was a long winded way of saying "the more consistent, the more competitive." After all, no one would use incenaroar like they do if he didn't fill such an important role. And players played Groudon or Kyogre when it was a free "Primal" super pokemon versus any other option to run along side their Mega Rayquaza. And your NOT bringing Quagsire when you could use Groudon or Kyogre.

[@volosguidetomonsters3440]

Looking at the titled from a non-Magic perspective would be hilarious - The Truth about CEDH - what does cedh even mean to non-Magic players?

[@thetrinketmage]

Oh yea this is not for a player new to mtg…

[@ich3730]

While i get what you mean, whats your point here? You also go under gun channels to ask "What does M16 EVEN MEAN LUL" ? xD

[@volosguidetomonsters3440]

@@ich3730 I've never seen a gun video... I don't know what M16 means either... obviously I do know what cEDH means I have a cEDH deck. I was making a joke (And a commentary on Magic: the Gathering lexicon)

[@brendans1983]

The Truth Abouth Chickens Eating Dead Horses 😂

[@volosguidetomonsters3440]

@@brendans1983 I see (Wait the chickens ate my eyes help meeeeeee

[@nunyabusiness3957]

Love you, Trinket. Your videos are amazing and have greatly helped my deckbuilding skills.

[@thetrinketmage]

I’m happy to hear that!

[@WeirdGameplay]

I don't like boring magic, that is, a powerlevel where magic cards feel like junk made for draft. They rarely allow to brew interesting interactions. But I don't like the highest power competitive environment either, because it makes a whole lot of interesting interactions too slow to be included into any deck. Most interesting magic, in my opinion, happens in-between "my decks is birds" and "cEDH".

[@pokepersonzach8574]

Higher power casual is a fun way to take a break from the play/build perfect nature of CEDH. I like high power magic that has combos and interaction too but I don’t always wanna play the same few lines.

[@SwedeRacerDC]

I think people who say casual is for fun are people like me who don't enjoy cEDH. It's not what I want to do, which is why I play EDH. If you press a little deeper, they would probably agree that people obviously find it fun, but that they don't. I think it's more accurate to say casual is the fun first format and cEDH is all about winning. I can agree to an extent that the claim your making about the myth of cEDH if you compare it to modern meta vs kitchen table modern. Do they both technically play in the same format? Yes, but could you win a tourney with a casual modern deck? No. So why bother building your 60 card casual deck to fit a format? Why not just build what interests you and play it casually? Kitchen table 60 card is almost an entirely separate format from any of the other 60 card formats. As far as casual formats go, EDH was designed specifically for casual. This is the opposite and this is why cEDH is a separate format. It may never have a separate banlist, but it's very possible that it could in the near future.

[@melind82]

I appreciate a more nuanced discussion for cEDH (I'm also real tired of hearing people call decks that just happened to land on a turn 4-5 combo win a cEDH deck as well), but I don't think its helpful to pretend cEDH isn't against the "spirit" of EDH. If people don't believe me there is an official philosophy of commander which clearly states the purpose of EDH is to create a social format with broad range of playable cards and a reduced emphasis on competitive wins. cEDH is a great format but its definitely its own offshoot with its own metas and strategies and goals. I do also find it funny with the popularity of EDH and cEDH's use of proxies, cEDH is probably the most friendly and easy to access competitive MTG format.

[@unanon_user]

with barely any functioning vision whatsoever, I would probably say I could be considered blind by normals. so, the social aspect is very helpful to me. partly because, I don't really get out very often. barely any public transport whatsoever where I live. so, I'm always relying on relatives to take me where I need to go. The social aspect can also be very helpful and learning more about the game. I don't think people really understand that.

[@jdcommander7026]

I've seen quite a few videos done like this, but you actually crushed it. Great work

[@Dirkadirky]

I have a magda brazen outlaw deck that I love to play but even after taking clock of omens out, still overperforms with my play group so I don't play it often. I've been considering lately constructing it more towards CEDH but I always thought the format would be too competitive for my taste. This video has me thinking it's actually more casual than I initially thought so maybe I'll give it a try

[@thetrinketmage]

if you max out the power of magda you can have a blast playing cedh!

[@SDTCG]

You should go for it! cEDH players get a reputation for being sweaty, but that's only in big tournaments (which is true of every format). But if you play with friends or go to small locals tournaments it's super chill and everyone has a good time. Way less salt than casual pods with strangers in my personal experience.

[@lordndrew]

Playing with the right people with the right mindset. That’s cEDH.

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

I don't have any problem with CEDH, but I do think it goes against the "spirit" of EDH. There's a reason the format is 100 card singleton: it was to increase variance and decrease consistency. Playing 30 tutors and 10 fetch lands in every deck kind of defeats the whole purpose of the format.

[@jacksonhenry1489]

For me the spirit of edh is that you have access to almost every card in magic and what you can do with all of them. And the lack of variety can be a turn off for some but for me at least it doesn’t make much of a difference I like the consistency

[@thetrinketmage]

I see that but how about this. What about casual tribal decks. They often run a lot of lords and token generators. And those that have a lot of support like elves or zombies are super consistent have lots of redundancy and the decks are homogeneous. Do tribal decks go against the spirit of the format?

[@IvanKolyada]

@@thetrinketmageI see you went from “have nothing against tribal decks” to “fck em!”

[@thetrinketmage]

@@IvanKolyada I don’t actually hate tribal decks I just think they are kinda boring. I’d never stop you from playing them. I just think they are an example of casual decks which have a lot of “cEDH elements”

[@ich3730]

The "spirit" of EDH is to do whatever the fuck you want with your cardboard while waiting between tournament rounds of sanctioned magic events.

[@txips]

Amazing video. Love your perspective into cedh and to tell the truth, now I'm kinda leaning to a more cedh deck list then using a pile of non optional stuff just because it's casual.

[@tdaz5130]

I think that cEDH is about speed and consistency of the deck and their value engine, fast land, multiple draw, tutor, mana rock. While other than 5 mana on turn 2 is just high power deck.

[@chrisp6409]

CEDH is the same game as EDH, but it's not all on the same scale. Its about a different kind of fun - an alternative to the competitive, top meta, where social game experience is prioritized instead of just winning. The Rules Committee recently updated its philosophy statement, and unfortunately they removed one of the best lines from it (although the overall meaning has not changed, and I think the missing line still holds true): "We know this format can be broken. We think it's more fun if you don't." That's the ethos of commander. CEDH is the ethos that says "No thanks, we`ll have more fun by breaking it" Both are completely valid and fun ways to approach the game, but they are different approaches fundamentally

[@souleater4242564kodd]

Correct its a different kind of fun Because its absent from the table, you're all insecure losers that need a power fantasy over being the winner you sacrifice creativity and fun for a borong victory because you break the format and make a terrible experience for others watching you play solitaire due to locking them out of interacting Its the opposite of the spirit of the game

[@ConquestM]

@@souleater4242564kodd why is it always the people who claim to be "for-fun" that act as fun dictators deciding that other people must not be having fun because they can't comprehend people being different? no one likes pubstompers, but you aren't making a terrible experience for others when 4 people sit down and decide to play cedh because they're all on the same page.

[@evanprimeau3810]

I don't usually agree with Trinket Mage, but I shockingly agree here: Casual players are maliciously ignorant of what Commander really is, and there is truly no line between cEDH and Casual EDH. The only distinction between them is that one of them is fun, doesn't require pre-game discussions, and is inexpensive to get into in most circles... and the other is Casual Commander, where people will play all the same cards as in cEDH, and then be shocked when you tell them their deck was too strong for a Casual table. I think the REAL hot take here is that High Power Commander (I.E. building a deck with the purpose of winning fast, but not playing popular cEDH commanders) is completely nonexistent, and those players are just looking to pubstomp casuals.

[@thetrinketmage]

Working on a video about those high power decks right now!

[@SwedeRacerDC]

I think some of the reasoning in your second half further proves why cEDH is a different format. The fact that it's a narrow pool of cards and you know what to expect and there's no salt as a result. Personally, I think casual pods could use more of a set of guiding principles for the current match. To remove the salt and make for more fun and balanced matches. It's tricky doing this, but I'm hoping to come up with an answer for how

[@Lunacorva]

8:58 I think that perception comes from this image post that tried to explain power levels. It said that Power Level 10 decks consistently win on turn 1-2. So the thinking is: cEDH wants to play the best decks. The best decks win on turn 1. Therefore all cEDH games end on turn 1.

[@dungensAreDragons]

A cataclysmic opinion threatening the very foundation of this format. I strongly disagree that this is a concern we can afford to ignore. Of COURSE there are cards that are unhealthy for the game. This is not a slippery slope argument, and framing it that way betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of game design and what players are wanting out of their experience.

[@thepopefrancis3015]

I haven't played any commander before, only a few games of standard a few years ago with friends. I am *this* close to printing off a proxy commander deck and bring it to my local game shop, but I'm concerned that I'll be utterly destroyed by the people there. I have no idea what most keywords are and I'm afraid to be an annoying person to teach. I'm also considering getting a precon to have at least some real cards in my possession (all my old cards went to a friend). Idk, I think the deck building side of this game could be really up my alley but I don't have enough experience in playing the game yet to give it a fair crack. This channel is both fuel to the fire and a great source of information to an outsider, so thank you for getting me hyped about this game.

[@MageSkeleton]

i feel like i have so much to say, i wish i could had been someone to had helped you with the script for this video. However, i am not as knowledgeable on the Cedh scene as i used to and i'm working with old information with educated guesses. First of all, if i hear "proxy friendly" that means someone who brings a "dual land" that's written in sharpie over a basic land should be acceptable. i used "helper cards" as they were cheap, and gave a nice blank field to write on. i mainly got into playing Commander through my LGS (many years ago) and they exclusively gathered to play a "tournament" with prizes on the line. They did not accept the use of any proxies unless you could prove you own an OG WotC copy of the card. Once upon a time, there was a clear delineation between what defined Casual Commander and Competitive Commander play, and it was so identifiable you knew who was most likely in the Competitive play based on their commander choice. In todays times, Wizards of the Coast has been printing cards and reprinting cards such that "casual" commander players are gaining "tools" allowing them to compete with Competitive players such that the difference between the two had to be more specifically defined. The more consistent your deck was, the more competitive it is. And it's difficult to judge such consistency to assign a number to it but possible. K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth and The Gitrog Monster [and please if you want to play Cedh do not play The Gitrog Monster if your learning to play more competitively] are NOT "anti CEDH" commander options, they are known as the most popular competitive commander options. i feel that K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth especially gets the "short end of the stick" because of how popular he is, everyone has a deck with him as commander and i wanna say most of them are terrible piles of cards, but i digress. Thank you for your time reading all this, i really REALLY tried to keep it short but i needed to convey what i want to say. i believe i know really good "introduction to competitive" stuff allowing players to play on a budget but that would require me to learn how to put together a youtube video and do my own stuff. i may get there eventually. But there is still a difference between "competitive play" and "casual play" and every format has both.

[@EntropicUsername]

I hate the idea that cEDH has no rule zero and therefore no salt. That’s not how that works! cEDH has an EXTENSIVE rule zero to it, to the point of actually changing written rules of the format. The difference is that it’s standardized and well understood, and in turn gets people on the same page effectively. The reduction in salt is not by eliminating rule zero. It’s by having an extremely strong and clear rule zero.

[@JeanSimonLanglois]

It's good that people talk about it. I personally like cEDH to see people go wild or trying to find an answer to a situation. But I play mostly 95% casual. The definition of HighPower, casual and cEDH is different to each person. My playgroup (30ish weekly) doesnt like stax or infinite combos...sadly most of them think thats make a deck cEDH... or cost too much. But I went top8 cedh tournament with a 40$ Malcolm/Breeche pirate deck (only basics)

[@kylekonop4801]

In any multiplayer format with more than 2 sides, victory is less about playing the game than playing the players. I find it weird to hear about "competitive" EDH where victory is determined more by your skill at diplomacy than Magic.

[@IvanKolyada]

Exactly my thoughts! How multiplayer can be competitive? When you can sit out the counterspell crossfire/negotiate with oppos, and than combo off in a right moment.

[@varsoonhks3211]

EDH is a format about slonkin' fat bong rips and drinking Buds with a group of friends while you all bullshit around the most durdled boardstate to ever exist.

[@crppledizzle9374]

​@@varsoonhks3211 and that's certainly fine, but sometimes I want a more productive and less mind numbing game

[@TheLK641]

Halfway through the video, you've already convinced me to not try cEDH (I did watch it to the end, just in case, but you didn't change my mind). For context, my main deck is an EDH Colfenor, the Last Yew combo deck. It tries to win via a 4 card combo (commander, Wild Pair, a 0/0 for X and a free sac outlet), which ends up, through Wild Pair, becoming a 10 card combo that infinitely ping opponents. At best, it can win turn 8. Talking about it on reddit, someone found an upgrade to it, which makes it less color intensive (potentially even making it a two color combo !), frees up the command zone and makes it take less place in the deck, but also makes it a 14 card combo. Discovering beauties like Primal Clay, the 0/0 in the deck that turns into a 1/6 defender on the battlefield is what makes me smile. You're telling me, "come and join us. Sure, your lands are always going to be the same. Yes, your mana rocks are also obvious. Your removal is pretty much set in stone, and while your wincon is not, you've got three options. But come, pick a deck that's already 95% done and have fun". It reminds me of what a Modern player told me when I told them Modern looked too pricey to me : "you start by buying a monored burn deck, then, one card here, one card there, in a few months you'll have the deck you want to play". I don't want to play until I manage to convince an MtG god to make me a list of Colfenor - Wild Pair that's cEDH viable, nor do I want to play until I have the experience and skill required to make such a list, if it's even possible (guessing it's not). I just want to make it, no matter how bad it is, no matter how janky it is. Taking the fun part out of MtG doesn't make MtG better. Forcing people to play the very best doesn't solve the issue of different deck-building level, it just forces people to netdeck instead of making their own deck. Making everybody play the same cards doesn't make the cards more fun to play, it just soft bans 90% of this game's history, because power creep made their existence not worth remembering. I fail to see the point in such a change in philosophy from my pod's "make sure everybody's having fun" EDH mindset.

[@MageSkeleton]

i would argue Colfenor, the Last Yew should be a competitive commander option, my issue with it is your potentially better off playing Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle as both require use of the graveyard. My point being, there are commander options and strategies players will find fun that happens to be "more powerful" than most other options. So you might be having fun but your opponents who brought Urtet, Remnant of Memnarch and Sythis, Harvest's Hand will not because they need time to get to where they start doing what they want to do versus what you have normally achieves "winning the game" at that point. i'm curious, if your not using Colfenor, the Last Yew what commander are you using?

[@DanielCotillo]

Then it's simple: cEDH isn't for you because your perception of fun isn't what the perception of fun is for a cEDH player. Also, your post shows that you didn't watch through all of the video.

[@jawsomejasper8353]

You say 95% of a cEDH deck is already built, but that is also sort of the case for most casual edh decks. How much of your deck is lands, removal, ramp, etc? The fun part about brewing a deck is finding ways to make that last 5-10% substantially different from other decks. Edit: I am also of the belief that every commander can be built to be cEDH viable if you're creative enough in your deckbuilding. If you want I might be able to build a draft for a deck if you can link me what deck you're currently running.

[@archdruidman3493]

I think you have a serious misconception about cEDH. It’s a format, not some nebulous thing that hardlocks you into one style of play. Formats ebb and flow, meta games shift over time, etc. So stop thinking that cEDH forces you into rigid and narrow steps. There are plenty of janky cEDH decks, and there are plenty of cEDH decks you can build on your own. The format never inherently locks you into netdecking. Again, it’s a format, and creativity in deck-building can shift formats. So please stop thinking of cEDH as “this is what you have to play otherwise you are quite literally fucked”

[@whyareyoubothering]

I thought that as well. Then got extremely tired and actually stressed out when I”make sure everyone is having fun” became a job and wasn’t feasible with random people. CEDH completely fixed that. I know exactly the type of game everyone is playing no matter who is coming or what commander it is. And deck options? I purposely play non meta commanders in meta shells to see if there’s new lines or pop off zones to see just how far some of my favorite but weird commanders can go if I just proxied the ridiculous stuff. I once even tried playing in “optimized” tables in the past and found out even that is too loose a definition for 4 strangers to agree on. I often found these tables to just be “I am turboing my thing as fast as possible please don’t touch my stuff or I scoop”

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

2:34 i believe that these decks are extremely popular and may actually be the most common deck in existence. Its where almost all kitchen table fits.

[@softyymaru4435]

I ended up building tymna/jeska for my first cEDH deck and i really enjoy playing at that power level. Its just frustrating when i think im playing a casual deck and get blown out against another “casual” deck

[@charlieblocher7456]

This perspective seems to be more common from players who weren't around EDH was newer, at least in my experience. The whole point of the format was the play big, splashy creatures, combos, and spells that were impractical in the win-as-fast-as-possible gameplay of every other format that existed - Standard, Modern, Vintage. Sure, you COULD play a Standard or Modern deck that wasn't competitive, but good luck when you show anywhere other than your kitchen table and get blown out of the water. EDH was an answer to that. cEDH goes back to that old standard of gameplay - win as fast as possible. It's why, even in your own analysis of the cards, cEDH players didn't blink an eye when Iona was banned - she didn't help them win really quickly - while EDH players didn't really see why Flash was banned - it wasn't part of big splashy plays or combos. Another point to show why cEDH is separate from standard, casual Commander is the need for proxies - you don't need proxies when your table, as a whole, isn't dumping hundreds or even thousands of dollars on the best possible cards for the best possible decks. When no one has Mana Crypts or OG dual lands or Mishra's Workshops, then it doesn't matter and no one needs to proxy. cEDH players need proxies because they're playing at highly competitive levels and you NEED those cards to have a competitive deck, harkening back to old days of Standard, Modern, and Vintage, where winning ASAP was the goal, instead of playing the game for janky fun and seeing what you could pull of with an off-the-wall or niche concept. At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with players wanted to have fun with cEDH, but the idea that cEDH and EDH are the same game ignores the fundamental basis and motive behind the creation of the EDH format, and the lack it answered among Magic players.

[@kelpsie]

1:33 - Small rant because I hate the modern usage of the word "meta". "Anti-meta" decks 100% "part of the meta as a whole". They are decks made by playing the meta-game. That is, the game within a game of examining how people play and choosing your cards to suit that environment. They're not "meta decks", as in "within the list of the most popular and successful decks", but they absolutely are decks within the meta. The only way to play a deck that "isn't part of the meta" is to build it in a vacuum, without taking into account what other people are playing. The usage of "meta" to basically just mean "popular and successful" is, I think, eroding understanding of what a meta-game actually is. It's not just the list of what things are popular and successful. It's the act of treating the examination of winning strategies as something that can, itself, be rewarding. It's also fairly ironic, given that the video is about people using "cEDH" to basically just mean "popular and successful" without any concrete idea of what constitutes those things. I would also say that this pretty handily defines the difference between EDH and cEDH. cEDH is when you play the EDH meta-game. You examine the strategies that win, pick cards and strategies that are most likely to beat them, then you bring that pile of cards to the table and execute your strategy.

[@Rabidconscience]

2:32 my playgroup plays casual modern and it’s so good. Really worth giving a try. (General guidelines we use are: an agro deck could win by turn 5 if their opponent does nothing and decks use b-tier removal like Mortify). A tibalt deck. (The 2 mana one) is actually not only viable, but genuinely scary in our environment, even when I powergame within these restrictions. It’s wild.

[@thecrimsonfkr2818]

You can get any deck you want for $5 at the library. The printer is available. *nods sagely*

[@MageSkeleton]

Just don't enter any tournaments without talking to the judge first lol.

[@unanon_user]

if I were going to do proxies? I would rather just buy them. Good, professionally made ones. besides, I have really bad eyesight. so I don't really want to screw them up.

[@Macwylee]

Why not just support your lgs and buy the card?

[@unanon_user]

@@Macwylee I buy from my LGS is all the time. trust me, they definitely get my money.

[@Macwylee]

@@unanon_user then spend your money with them on the cards you want instead of proxy. Simple as.

[@ElementalPenguins]

So are we getting a video about vintage sideboards? Because I really want to know lol

[@thetrinketmage]

When I find a billionaire who will loan me a deck I’ll play vintage and report back

[@ElementalPenguins]

Anything is possible! Maybe they'll read these comments and want to collab! Fingers crossed!

[@varsoonhks3211]

@@thetrinketmage You can play for free on Cockatrice! ;P

[@hominid012]

This skitarii absolutely knows what he's talking about. Big advocate of just referring to Cedh decks as meta decks. I wish all of the locals in my area weren't doing Commander tournaments though. Really takes away from that casual part of the format

[@Doki1880]

My biggest problem with CEDH is that it doesnt have the same creativity to me. The majority of decks are nearly the same though of course there are out outliers. But in a more casual setting I find it fun to see the jank and passion put into building around certain cards. That being said I still think CEDH is a perfectly fine format but I don't personally consider it the same as normal EDH. I wouldnt mind more bans and changes to actually make them 2 different formats.

[@yhuyyh]

There’s plenty of variety when you look closer and step away from tournaments. Fringe brews and flash in the pan decks pop up all the time. Even two commander will have vastly different deck lists. One of the things I love about cEDH is that I’m always looking to pioneer a new deck that no one has done before or improve existing ones. It’s easy to be creative when losing is an acceptable option.

[@_furydance8890]

@@yhuyyh isn't that basically all power levels of EDH

[@thomaspetrucka9173]

Honestly, you're right about all of this. Although, I think people get salty about this when CEDH players don't know how to NOT be CEDH, and just play mid-tier jank for a game. I know I do. It's not the wrong way to play, it's just a different way to play. But because there's no dividing line, the two worlds clash spectacularly--and it practically always feels bad when they do.

[@thomaspetrucka9173]

I should specify. It's not that players who play CEDH can't help themselves, it's that they seem to unintentionally blind themselves to what casual looks like--just like how casual players are blind to what CEDH looks like. I've only ever had power level problems with players that I know play CEDH (Not that I know a lot of them), and have trouble appreciating the slower grindy games where the story, theming, or jankiness of a deck matter more than its power level.

[@grayvalli7840]

Disagree with 2 major points. The first is “why ban cards if other cards replace them?” Surely you realize this is an argument against ban lists in general. There are some strategies that are both too meta defining and unfun. 2nd point, Vintage games don’t end on turn 1 for the same reason cedh games don’t end on turn 1. Free interaction

[@C._Bradford]

This argument makes sense everywhere except CEDH. Cards aren't banned in commander for power balance reasons. The point of commander is to allow any and all cards. His point was that 13:00 CEDH will still be CEDH with or without targeted bans that would also screw with more casual games.

[@notgonnasay09]

I think there are two big things that hold me back from truly trying cEDH: 1. Two of my favorite colors to play - green and white - are basically non-factors in cEDH. What few decks that run either color - Kinnan, Kenrith, Najeela, Thrasios, et cetera - feel like they only run a small handful of green or white cards and would be vastly improved with the quality of their cards if they were not obligated to run those colors. To use Kinnnan as an example, from what lists I see online the deck would be vastly improved in terms of meaningful win conditions if it swapped access to red or black or went full mono-blue rather than being shackled to green to find a win condition that could win in a timely fashion. Don't even get me started on how much commanders like Yasharn or Sythis have fallen off competitively. 2. The stack interactions that take place in cEDH - which based on the quote you brought up in the video is a huge draw for cEDH - stresses me out something fierce. As someone who has recently identified having a very difficult time playing against Spellslinger-style archtypes, I get really stressed at the kinds of counter-wars that tend to happen frequently at the highest levels of play. I think it mainly has to do with feeling responsible for not being able to stop these strategies no matter what I play and feeling like I wasted people's time by not bringing a faster deck that could keep up. Maybe I am off base in my assessments, but I would be interested to hear if my thoughts are unique to my own experiences or if other cEDH players feel the same way.

[@archdruidman3493]

White is the second best color in the format rn though

[@notgonnasay09]

@@archdruidman3493 Is it? I thought Kinnan, Najeela, and Blue Farm were dominant? I mean, Heliod is kind of a one-trick pony with Walking Ballista and Oswald barely ever gets talked about. Even the commanders that do run white - like Tymna, Najeela, or Sissay - don't seem to care all that much about the white cards they play compared to the combo lines that need to execute on to close games down.

[@varsoonhks3211]

(pssst its a shite format, play anything else, this video is propaganda)

[@Rumpelghast]

The criticism against competitive decks in casual Magic games is about the difference in approach to the game. For casual players, the fun comes from playing a game where everyone participates and can execute their deck's strategies. The goal is not to win as quickly as possible, but to create a dynamic game where everyone can interact and have fun. Competitive decks focus on winning quickly, often through combos that end the game abruptly. This can sacrifice the experience of other players, who end up just watching without having the chance to actually play. For this reason, combos are often associated with cEDH (competitive Commander), where the priority is efficient victory, as opposed to casual EDH, where the focus is on interaction and fun for all participants. When the focus is not on winning at any cost, deck interactions also do not need to be as intense, reducing the need to include the strongest and most expensive cards. This means that you do not need to fill half your deck with cards just to hinder other players. Constantly using these powerful and disruptive cards can ruin the gameplay experience and make the hobby much more expensive, something that not everyone can afford. The inability to keep up with competitive decks can frustrate many players and make the gameplay even worse. The banlist also collaborate with this idea of a "fun game". Cards that now allow your friends to play, such as "Iona" are consider not fun, therefore not good for the game (casual game). You see, it's a format to play with friends, and most people don't want their friends miserable for the sake of their own lonely fun, and vice-versa. Sorry about the big comment 😅

[@ich3730]

The banlist absolutely does not collaborate with that idea. How is iona, an angel with a CMC of like 1 billion and a mediocre effect that maybe inconveniences one guy, banned "for fun reasons" while its possible to copy scrambleverse 18 times to waste everyones evening? Why is coalition victory banned "because winning outta nowhere is not fun" while we have literal 1 card combos in the format?

[@Rumpelghast]

@@ich3730 It's very easy to recognize someone who has never been through this type of situation or who is on the other side of the play (cEDH side) Through this type of comment! Just read what the committee said about the card and you will realize: "Iona, Shield of Emeria creates a negative experience for many players without the benefit of a positive application. We had previously considered its high mana cost sufficient to keep it from getting played, but deeper investigation demonstrated many ways of getting it onto the battlefield without paying that cost. Iona, Shield of Emeria is also an exemplar as the type of card which creates an experience we wish to discourage, namely shutting players out of games." That represents part of my point! NOT FUN! Not being able to play the game you wait a week or two to play is not fun! That is not up for debate. If you do not agree, that situation not happened to you enough for you to realize. And sorry to bring you the bad news, its coming for you eventually if you not in the competitive side.

[@featherfailing]

I think you make a lot of good points here but largely, but I think most of these are points covered in the video. For one "causal players" don't necessarily all agree on what is "fun" and what isn't. While most casual players do not play cEDH, probably most, if not all cEDH players have played or do currently play "casual" commander. Point being, the groups are overlapping, and don't have all the same views. I do agree, however that cEDH drives people or decks that don't want to play combos out of the format. Trinket Mage talked a little bit about this in the deck but the best decks in the format are about deploying combos with a lot of protection or after someone else tried to go infinite. Our point would be more of a problem if it was to go as fast as possible, but even rogsi has a 8-10 counterspells. Interaction is format defining for cEDH, and is often what adds strategic complexity to the game. Also, cEDH is really cheap. Not only is cEDH really proxy friendly, but a good amount of cEDH is played on programs like cockatrice, or sometimes even on obs and moxfield play-tester. Both of which are free. I do agree that cEDH isn't very friendly towards the timmies of the world, but that doesn't mean other players won't have fun. cEDH isn't meant for players to tell their friends about all the cool plays they made, and while I think we should value that in MTG, it is not the whole game. In summary, I think what is fun is really something that is personal, and while some may enjoy games with low very little interaction and lots of big plays, it might be that you might want to try other games/formats where this is the main part. What's cool about commander is that it has such a wide player-base, and so the game has to has different power levels so everyone can find something that they like.

[@Rumpelghast]

​@@ich3730 It's very easy to recognize someone who has never been through this type of situation or who is on the other "side" of the play (Competitive) Through this type of comment! Just read what the committee said about the card and you will realize: "Iona, Shield of Emeria creates a negative experience for many players without the benefit of a positive application. We had previously considered its high mana cost sufficient to keep it from getting played, but deeper investigation demonstrated many ways of getting it onto the battlefield without paying that cost. Iona, Shield of Emeria is also an exemplar as the type of card which creates an experience we wish to discourage, namely shutting players out of games." If you are like most people, that prepare yourself for about two weeks to play for 3h~4h on the weekend and find yourself not being able to play at all, its frustrating as f@%k! And if you don't like that experience, my bet is that you don't want it for your friends either. The Iona is an example I found to demonstrate that don't allowing your friend to play is not fun! But you can find another examples as well. Is the same reason Stax decks/land destruction are so annoying, cause it wont let you play. So, if you are not playing just to win, but to get fun with friends, you will not play with that super stax deck! But if you are psycho and your love in magic is to annoy people, go ahead! Have FUN!

[@Rumpelghast]

​@@ich3730 Your argument does not make any sense! Scrambleverse is a meme card, no one with a brain will use it in pro of an strategy. Iona can enter on the battlefield at turn 2 to 4 depending on the the deck she goes. Nobody plays it using its regular cost! And just a note of the committee: "Iona, Shield of Emeria creates a negative experience for many players without the benefit of a positive application. We had previously considered its high mana cost sufficient to keep it from getting played, but deeper investigation demonstrated many ways of getting it onto the battlefield without paying that cost. Iona, Shield of Emeria is also an exemplar as the type of card which creates an experience we wish to discourage, namely shutting players out of games." and "Iona is banned for its ability to lock players completely out of playing magic. Say you're playing a mono-black deck, and someone picks black with Iona - You can't cast spells. This also means even drawing removal can't get you back in... There's pretty literally nothing a mono-colored deck can do, and that's not good."

[@tartarussauce1983]

Petition to call the cast for free with your commander cycle the lieutenant spell cycle.

[@thatonefirekestral]

I was thinking the exact same thing lol

[@theamateur713]

Some of the best cards that combat Thassa's Oracle and Dockside Extortionist both are static effects that stop ETB (Enter the Battlefield) effects, such as Torpor Orb and Doorkeeper Thrull. These are much more common than Cephalid Colliseum, Loran of the Third Path, or even Endurance

[@VoidTCG]

Getting my friends into cedh was awesome. As a non-proxy guy I just slowly buy the duals and other pricey stuff I need over time. I mostly play rog-so, talion, krik, zur, urza, and now nadu.

[@VoidTCG]

Forgot to add Stella Lee. That being said I have tons of regular commander decks to play mostly tribal or commanders I just love.

[@LollieHollie137]

I think one of the main things that keeps me from cEDH is the first player winrate problem. You make a point to mention how cEDH is not like vintage in that the first player basically always wins, but from a quick search it appears that in ~40% of games the first player wins, which in a 4 player format is a monster of a win rate. That is about double the win rate of each other player. It just doesn’t sound fun to play in a format where a roll of the dice dictates who is twice as likely as everyone else to win. I also feel like this is a problem that would just get worse the more inexperienced the players, since I know mulliganing by seat is a big skill in cEDH.

[@astrograph7875]

Where are you getting a 40% win rate from? From what I've seen, that's generally not the case for who wins in cEDH. It's usually determined by the quality of the hands. How much interaction they have, How much fast mana, tutors, etc.

[@bobthor9647]

No one tracks that data . Try it out it's fun - you can play the best cards

[@Strumtreppen]

I agree that it is impossible to cleanly separate edh and cedh the way one can separate modern and edh. However, in the same way one can separate combo decks and control decks one can separate "casual" and "competitive" by how the deck is intended to function. The lack of rule zero is one of competive commander's greatest strength. The no holds barred battle of wits without the ambiguity of what cards are 'soft banned' by rule zero. Whereas in casual commander rule zero is its greatest strength because it allows as much diversity as an individual player wants. The decks that are playable are not limited the by meta and anti-meta decks. That same frustrating ambiguity creates space to try everything which I personally want to do in a format where nearly every is legal.

[@Strumtreppen]

I'm glad we both have ways to enjoy magic even if what we want from the game is different.

[@christianroberts1121]

Cedh is a shorthanded rule Zero that simply implies "i am here to win, i trust you are to. No hard feelings :) "

[@QuicksilverSG]

Commander is really three overlapping formats, distinguished by card selection: * Casual Commander - No: stax, infinite loops, land destruction. Budget-friendly, no proxies. * Pay-to-win Commander - Casual plus pay-to-win cards > $25. Proxies require permission * Competitive EDH (cEDH) - Play-to-win, nothing legal excluded. Proxies taken for granted. Prominent promoters of Pay-to-Win Commander are WotC, online card dealers, and corporate-sponsored KZbinrs.

[@CCDevonEleven]

A lot of strawman arguments here if I'm being frank. The reason cEDH is distinct socially from EDH is because of casual players, and you may be confused on what a casual actually is. A casual is typically someone who picks a pet card as a commander, and has a sub optimal deck of cards that were left over from their collection and a handful of singles. cEDH is different than EDH. It's the same format sure, but it's like saying speedrunning is just "let's playing". It's not. Same game, same rules, different goal and execution. Speedrunning may be a way of playing a game but someone will call you out if you are just claiming you're casually playing SM64 and then watch you perform a backwards stair warp. You can like and enjoy cEDH without everyone else being wrong about how they feel about something extremely competitive when their goal is to simply enjoy it slowly and have conversations with friends. No one likes an over competitive showoff at the family barbeque flag football game.

[@Snipfragueur]

Well if CEDH is about trying to win (or preventing someone to win) on turn 3, then I guess casual EDH should be renamed "slow EDH", where you would ban most accelerators (two card combos and fast manas) and where most win would be around turn 8 or so through mean that seem at least more fair (Craterhoofs, Torment of Hailfire, Expropriate and such).

[@samuelcooper9880]

I enraged some gatherers once by playing Tree of Perdition. The table had mixed opinions and that was cool. It actually sparked a discussion about EDH.

[@califkids3]

"cEDH isn't a format" "cEDH wont be supported as a format by wizards" Kind of at odds with those comments. It should be mentioned that I do agree with some of your points, but I view cEDH as not a format but an assumption of things related to rule 0. Its not, "here's a format where anything goes" but more of "I've designed this commander deck to be as streamlined as possible and consistently and quickly win, and you probably will not enjoy playing your precon in this pod"

[@BR4IN1N4J4R]

My one deck I want to build is probably in the "fringe cEDH" range, which is absolutely fine with me. Commanders are Dargo/Tevesh and it's very much an all-in combo deck aiming to get out a Phyrexian Altar/Thermopod and a couple "ritual dorks" or treasures, sac them, cast Dargo, then loop Dargo for payoffs

[@GreatWhiteElf]

When people say commander is "for fun" I'm pretty sure they mean fun for everyone at the table. That's why land destruction, stax, and early turn combo wins are considered Cedh. Because most players don't considered those strategies fun. So Cedh kind of is a separate format, the point is that in Cedh winning is the first priority, while ensuring everyone at the table is having fun is not really considered.

[@clothandleather2838]

Edh is for fun. Whether it be competitive or casual. It's just a lot of people don't really like blowing cash on meta cards, or maybe just dislike the overly blunt nature of competitive. Playing games like overwatch or other games with a competitive mindset has kinda just made me bitter about comp versions of games. But that's my opinion.

[@FlowBerni]

I think the biggest discrepancy comes from the word "casual". Casual just means soooooo many things. I heard guys sayin: "Casual means that I don't try to win with the deck", "casual means that I eat cheeseburgers while playing", "casual is anything under power level 8"....

[@vileluca]

Casual means wanting to get a chance to play the gimmick of your deck and you dont mind if you lose.

[@SenpuuNoMa1]

I understand what you're saying but i can't say i agree with everything. One counterpoint i'd like to bring up in regards to the spirit of the format is that it was intended to be a place where you could take your janky cards that you find cool but don't really fit in any competitive environments, and that ideally gives decks a lot of expressive power, because you can play a pile of cards that you really enjoy and no other person will have a list even remotely similar to that. Now, i will concede that recently that style of deckbuilding has fallen majorly out of favour with how well-constructed precons are nowadays and through the influence of online commander personalities changing the notion of what a game of commander should be: most casual commander decks are also quite explosive nowadays. The main point i would like to make is that commander was intended as a home for non-competition and non-competitive cards, where everyone just kind of durdles around for a bit and enjoys the laid back environment and friendly banter, specifically because not everyone always wants to have highly competitive games with the same staples over and over again. That's also why i don't like cEDH, because the staple cards are just boring, and seeing the same combo over and over again, or even combo wins in general, kind of sucks the personality out of the game. I don't like playing the most powerful cards, i just wanna do my funny thing, winning is very low down on my list of priorities.

[@nestrior7733]

The more I learn about the format, the more EDH as a whole reminds me of competitive Pokémon. We can debate if VGC or singles is more similar, but they all have similarities. So I'll talk way too much about them now. >:D Singles, as hosted on Smogon, uses various tiers to indicate a given Pokémon's viability compared to the meta game that is the most popular format, OU (Over Used). These tiers are % based on usage and Pokémon from higher tiers are banned in the lower tiers because of how dominating they would be. And bans happen if they force very specific forms of counterplay or are too domineering as a whole. That's why Legendaries land in Ubers (the next tier on the power scale) on principle. Although even Ubers had to ban Pokémon before, giving birth to Anything Goes (AG). But what these tiers also do is give you a list of what to expect and what you can use to counter. This doesn't mean that lower tier Pokémon can't be used in higher tiers though. Some are even staples in Ubers or at least appear with some consistency. This is very reminiscent of your competitiveness slide scale. VGC (which is a doubles format where you bring 4 out of 6 Pokémon from your team) on the other hand does not have an outright banlist beyond what Game Freak allows for the current format as the seasons are called. Which means that there are a lot of the same Pokémon on almost 90% of teams. These are the equivalent to the cEDH staples. While also following a more paper-scissors-rock formula than Singles. Speed control is the name of the game in a lot of match-ups and you always have to have ways to either out-speed your opponent (either by priority or your own support Pokémon making your team faster) or flipping the script with Trick Room (slower Mons move first). While still dealing with their actual threats and gaining the advantage for yourself. Meaning that games can be as good as decided very early on. This is your "win on turn three or be ready to prevent it." Both of these have pretty clear meta games, but the current Generation's gimmick mechanic allows for a fair amount of room. Still. You decide on what you want to do and then build your foundation for it. Often with a lot of the same building blocks as others. Filling in holes according to your flavour. EDH combines the two in a way. With the competitiveness scale being even more of a consistency scale than competitive Pokémon. You'll do your best to minimise randomness in all of these. There's still a lot of randomness in Pokémon though. The difference in impact of a 1 turn sleep vs. a 3 turn sleep in Pokémon is massive for either player. And it's complete RNG. Your Pokémon is guaranteed to wake up after the third turn, but is that a risk you are willing to take? Though that is why VGC is best out of three. And why no more than one Pokémon can be asleep on each team on Smogon. EDH and especially cEDH are very different beasts in that regard. Having up to three opponents or two allies let's you play around "bad luck" much more easily. Not always, of course. But your ability to influence table politics is a key part of your skill set. Something entirely absent from Pokémon. Add the many tutors and cards that do similar things to each other and you are almost guaranteed to have a chance. Anything with less of these will be inherently more "janky" and less consistent, reducing its competitiveness. Will likely still work in your playgroup and maybe even LGS though.

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

I have a question since I'm considering leaning into Cascade for my next caSuaL EDH deck...in an environment where pods have no restriction on power level for players. What does this rule "702.85b" mean ? (other than if i'm correct be super fun to add more probability of playing effects among the 99s) : RULE "702.85b If an effect allows a player to take an action with one or more of the exiled cards - as you cascade - , the player may take that action after they have finished exiling cards due to the cascade ability.[...]" ... does this mean if some cards mention playing, milling, or drawing them, you could? While CASCADING, interacting with the exiled cards means we could be adding them to the stack and having priority rules apply in all other manners as started in the rest of the rules and notes about cascade?

[@MrMarco7055]

you have blown my mind sir i am shooketh

[@NotyGG]

I couldnt agree more. Great video.

[@origaminosferatu3357]

Great video, makes me want to tuen the heck out of my Rionya deck. However in my experience the more competitive players tend to be more gatekeepy when it comes to stuff like proxies but maybe they are the crunchy "My deck is a 7" guys you have to get through before you hit cEDH where everyone is lovely.

[@thetrinketmage]

I really think that the players who play strong decks and hate proxies are not cEDH players. They are just playing tuned decks and are “crunchy” as you say

[@mulliganaway5627]

I’ve never been bitched at for winning a cEDH game, but boy have I have been bitched at for casual. I got bitched at the other day for using someone else’s Braids to drop Niv Parrun, and lucked into a curiosity. Blue group hug ramped me out of control, and I’m an asshole for running with it

[@sarahbuck2506]

If they see you running Niv and they don't save instant speed removal to 2 for 1 you when you cast your combo, that's their problem

[@mulliganaway5627]

@@sarahbuck2506 right?! What am supposed to do, not run a win con?!

[@Schnigel2]

Vintage is actually also a cool and entertaining format. And most tournament allow some amount of proxys for it nowdays.

[@Khatastros]

Hey man, i was so scared of cEDH because i can only afford to play with proxys 😢 but this video has inspired me to try this format in my LGS, and just play for the sheer fun of overpowered combos and crazy stacks war hahaha ty boi ❤❤

[@michaelturner2806]

I still have to disagree that casual and competitive are the same. I do admit that "casual is fun" is extremely loaded and prone to lots of interpretations. People wouldn't play cedh if they didn't have fun doing it! Many of the things you point out that you like about cedh is precisely why I think it's different enough to be differentiated. Lack of Rule 0 conversations. The agreement that anything goes within the rules. Rather than salt, agreement that a play was correct. Placing winning the game as the primary objective. These are all things that either make it competitive or are a result of it being competitive. And these are all things that I don't prefer about this and nearly every other recognized format of Magic. I want to pull back towards Casual EDH, where I can have a complicated board state for the heck of it, where I get to see amazing stupid things happen, where I can see unoptimized theme decks do their thing, etc. If regular edh has a focus on winning, blending current casual and cedh as you describe, then I'd want a split for some other kind of edh, hopefully avoiding loaded terms like "casual" or "for fun". And yeah, when I'm at a pod with a new player running a precon, another player with some jank, and my minotaur draft chaff deck, and the fourth player is silent in the Rule 0 discussion, and brings out a super powerful deck that just curbs stomps us, I know that's not a cedh player, that's just a jerk.

[@archdruidman3493]

Idk it’s different for everyone. I agree it’s quite stupid to say casual is fun while cedh isn’t about having fun, cause it is. It’s a different type of fun, however. Instead of witnessing completely bat shit boardstates and laughing at it, cedh is analyzing a complicated game state, trying to navigate a path to winning. The fun doesn’t come from the win, it comes from that navigation of trying to find the answer or trying to find the best play in the situation

[@surtrgaming1730]

Wait, what's rule zero in EDH? I think people around me skipped that part. I was sold EDH on a "play what you want basis", so I went to build a hand control type deck that focused on discarding cards from peoples hands and cards that would then punish opponents for having a low amount of cards in their hand. People got angry, and I got confused. But, I accepted to not build that deck. So, I went to my Yu-Gi-Oh roots and played a Kess deck with like 15 interruptions in it, most of them being a "Counter target X". Some people were having trouble understanding that yes, this was the deck I wanted to play in the "play what you want" format. But, they explained that I should probably play a less good deck to be around the same power as the other. I tried my best, as I had like a total of barely 25 hours of MTG experience, 20 of which were 8 years before learning what EDH was. So, I built a somewhat slow Red deck. I put a 9 mana card in it, because I loved how Overkill it was, even tho it wasn't good. I got to resolve Worldfire, and people got angry again. And I was still confused Where did I mess up?

[@webbc99]

You (or the people who got you into the format) messed up because you are trying to translate competitive 1v1 decks into a 4 player social format. A key part of what makes a good EDH deck is not just that it's fun for you, it's that it's fun for your playgroup. A fundamental part of what makes EDH enjoyable is "doing the thing". If your deck is built around stopping other people doing what their decks are supposed to do, they probably won't enjoy playing with you. A good EDH deckbuilder can make a deck that is fun to play and fun to play against.