Aren't Flat Bar Gravel Bikes Just Modern 90's MTBs?

[@adamhart9555]

ATB is the term we should be using for most of these progressive gravel bikes. It made sense back in that day and makes scents now, IMHO.

[@DIY-DaddyO]

That's what we called them back in the 80's in the UK. This explains it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Apps#:~:text=Geoffrey%20Cleland%20Apps%20(born%20London,pioneer%20of%20all%2Dterrain%20bicycles.

[@gregkosinski2303]

Like they fart?

[@_MrSnrub]

In one video I found my perfect 90's bike, the Rockcombo; and then my desire to obtain such a sweet bike was thwarted by the low production count. Only 500 of them? Man I wish I was older when this thing came out. I would have looooooved this.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Yeah how cool hey! It was ahead of its time, reference from the video: www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/the-specialized-rock-combo-gravel-design-fresh-from-the-1980s

[@tedhollander2066]

I ditched my gravel bike and built up a flat bar version using a rigid fork and a used SWorks hard tail frame from 2019. It’s lighter than my Look gravel bike was and is more versatile. Certainly a lot more fun on singletrack and not much worse on the road. I hear a lot about 90’s MTB’s vs gravel but not much about more modern hardtails being converted for gravel. There are lots of these race hardtails around for not a lot of money. Anyone else riding doing something like this?

[@thedownunderverse]

Yep 😉

[@toddmcdonough]

The marketing reason for the steep head angle for early MTB's was to keep the front wheel on the ground during steep (as in very steep) climbs. Descending was compromised along with health and safety. Front cantilever brakes were binary - on or off so the fast guys had brain damage and summer teeth. As in some are here and some are there. It was normal to hang out at the bottom of particularly rough sections and watch the bodies pile up. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Its very fascinating to here this side of it! As someone who was born in the late 90's and is learning about this era. Its truely fascinating to unpack it :) Sounds so rad!

[@gregkosinski2303]

It was also largely a continuation of racy road geometry. The geometry lent itself to leaning into turns rather than staying centered and leaning the bike. And you’re more aero. This is not just faster and safer at high speeds, but it’s a more intuitive way to steer imo.

[@briank4134]

71/73 degree angles. Anything else, and the magazine reviews would complain that it handled too slowly.

[@VFXBishop]

I ride a drop-bar converted Rockhopper and the very "Up-Down" nature of the cockpit is interesting. On the one hand I'm riding an 18" frame to get the correct reach, and on the other, I'm using a very high-rise quill to get a comfortable stack. On a modern XC bike I'm riding a size small, and on a modern gravel bike I think I'm riding either an small or extra small. I'm increasingly convinced that I would be happier with my XC bike if it were a drop-bar instead of flat bar.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Very cool! Would love to see your setup!

[@mattvanderwalt6220]

I think on a philosophic level there is a strong similarity between 90s mtb and gravel. Yes watching the gravel innovations like reproductions of tech from that era is one thing... but the actual attitude of the culture seems to emulate that of the 90s. Think as mtb split into more defined genres it lost something... having one bike, commuter during the week, weekend racer and riding with your buddies, a do it all... Gravel seems to have stepped into that same idiology.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Yes, well said! This is what I was attempting to communicate. Believe there is similarities in this manner.

[@SilverShamrock71]

I really wanted a Rockhopper in the 90s, had a Diamond Back mountain bike, can't even remember if it had suspension forks. Now coming back to cycling I have a Specialized Sirrus X which is a kind of gravely hybrid thing with flat bars and a suspension headset, It's a lovely bike to ride (except with a headwind), handles gravel superbly

[@mattyfrommacc1554]

I was there, riding my fully rigid steel MTB with drop bars like John Tomac did, I still have an early 90s bike, works perfectly still, with the original deore II thumbies, This is used much like a gravel bike now, with the narrowest 1.9" tyres

[@kai_v_k]

I always think that stack/reach comparisons fall short, if you totally neglect the stem (angle/length) and handlebarshape (Dropbar vs. straight). The so called first ever Gravelbike, for example, had a relatively long stem that went upwards, so the actual hand position might not be so different after all in that case. In case of Dropbars vs. flats the long stem of old bikes is often offset by the additional reach of Dropbars. Take modern mountain bikes with 35-60mm stems and compare them with MTBs from the 90s which had stems from 100mm upwards. That is a huge difference. Though you are definitly right on the aggresiveness of the riding position, my everydaybike has -10cm Saddle-Handlebar difference which is more aggressive than some Gravelbikes in the drops, so it is somewhat aerodynamic (if you discount the bulging pannier that I ferry arround all the time).

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Some great points there. Thanks for bring this to my attention. I have been too quick to just use stack/reach as a golden rule. But these other factors are very important to consider. And even when comparing the bikes had different wheel sizes. Which might have an effect also. So many variables. But that is a substantial difference with those stem lengths. What gravel bike do you ride?

[@Mantis858585]

My "gravel bike" is a 1990 trek multi-track. 700x40 tires and a high stem makes a comfy ride.

If someone doesn't have space for a second bike, ATB is a good solution , they can be modified very easily and cheaply, and the steel frame is almost indestructible you don't have to spend money on shock absorber maintenance , ATB are great bikes that are fun to ride

[@davidjohnston1374]

Hi Cody, hows it going mate......yeah it's a real soup of bikes out there right now but there is a category where it's kind of more aligned with the Mountain Bike theme but more hardy than a gravel bike due to it's very wide tyre ability being either 27.5 or 29er, discs, places to mount an abundance of racks and other bikepacking gear more so than a mere gravel bike and that would be the trekking style of bike. They are probably closest to the gravel bike only due to the fact they have the more traditional diamond frame shape whereas todays mountain Bike frames are so small or shallow is what i'd call them, even the Hardtails. But trekking bikes are not race designed as the gravel bike and can cope with much wider rims and tyres as well as lower gearing. They can be loaded up with any bag configuration possible. BIkes like Surly Karate Monkey, Curve GMX, Kona Unit, Surly Bridgeclub and Ogre, the Grappler, and Bombtrack Beyond. Being all steel framed, I think they are beyond the gravel bike and more inline with the 90's MTB but yeah their geometry will be different as are their wheels but they seem to be more purpose built as a proper Bikepacking steed than a Gravel Bike or any of the MTBs out there today.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

David! I'm doing great thanks! How are you mate? Yes mate great points. It seems some of these types of bikes are being called "drop bar mountain bikes" among other things. Or "Dirt touring bikes" / "off-road touring bikes". All great bikes by the way! Form what I understand to me a trekking bike has flat bars, racks, and looks similar to a flat bar commuter but built for touring and can take wide tires. Much like the Koga Worldtraveller - But then you have "Expedition Bikes' which are those ultimate around the world touring bikes which again seem very similar - like the Tout Terrain Silkroad.

[@davidjohnston1374]

@@CycleTravelOverload Yeah Cody, all similar but with flat bars or even butterfly bars and solid forks with heaps of eyelets for different types of racks/mounts that you can imagine have all been built for purpose and whilst i still only have the Vivente Touring bike, I wouldn't mind a Surly Ogre in the Garage as well......just to mix it up a bit....not really interested in Mountain bikes as the frames on the new style of MTBs are near useless imho. Unlike MTBs of yesteryear, the newer shape are more for downhill or unloaded touring.

[@dant.6364]

That Specialized footage is hilarious. Completely misses the point of the friendly party atmosphere of gravel riding in Pennsylvania or what the @timfitzwater channel is all about. Granted, it might be different out west though.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Heres the full video with sound :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWeyaZ5omJVsr7s edited** Ohh just realised you are referring to their new gravel bikes?

[@stevenr5149]

I love your project. Will follow.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Hey thanks :)

[@gk5891]

I just just keep fishing old Trek 700 out of the dumpster.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

WHAT! That's awesome! :)

[@abfutrell]

I'll see if I can find it, but there was a bike in the 1970s with similar geometry and wheel size (slightly smaller) to today's gravel bikes. The wheel diameter was larger than a 650b, but smaller than a 700c. Maybe someone can find it?

[@CycleTravelOverload]

How did you go! Did you find it?

[@Mark-f7o]

Ive got a beautiful old cromoly 26inch shogun trail blazer that i put a huge granny gear on the back and slightly small 3by chain ring as a tourer. Also have a lovely old dodsun road bike with the down tube shifters in pink😊 its an awesome old ride. But also a fuji gravel bike and modern 27.5 mtb. I must say the fuji jari 2.1 gravel i can go anywhere all day long. Road or off.✌️

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Beautiful Bikes

[@interceptor7905]

I was biggest Gary Fisher fan.Had a Big Sur from 1998. and now have Hoo Koo E Koo from 2000.Never liked flatbar,ever.

[@dewittlunsford2527]

So interesting, because I’ve been around a while, and now own a Cutthroat and an Ibis Ripley. But I also have a few older bikes, one of them is a 1988 Stumpjumper comp, that is totally rigid and quite frankly not really a good bike for anything other than being a piece of history. But the first mountain bike that I bought was a 1994 Rock Hopper, which was a great bike. But you are right, new bikes are nothing like the older bikes and while my two main bikes are completely different from each other, they are both incredibly comfortable and capable machines and so much more fun to ride, especially for extended rides. I love all my bikes but ride mostly the new ones 😊

[@Jan-bf2ht]

I would also agree to some comments on here that 90s MTB are not very similar to the modern gravel bike category … just like you say in the video and show by comparing geometries. The early MTBs from the late 80s however were different and not as aggressive, so they much more compare from a geometry perspective, still having the difference in wheel size. I got a Centurion Lhasa Kathmandu from 89 last fall and the geometry is very different to my other 90s MTBs (I'm running a rigid fork Checker Pig as my main "adventure bike" which is awesome but much more aggressive :D …). I really enjoyed your video, very deep dive into the topic. Even though I have to admit that I love my old 90s bikes :D. Thanks a lot and obviously I did subscribe ;).

[@bergbilch]

Drop bars are mostly there to look cool:D If it looks more racey it feels more racey^^ All theese terms are just for fashion any sensible person should customize a bike until it fits like a glove.

[@johnnyguzman3429]

A gravel bike is simply a gateway drug into XC mountain biking, or a way for enduro bros to actually build endurance through long rides. When talking about the capabilities of a gravel bike vs a 90s mountain bike, IDK, seems to me that gravel bikes need to go fast as well as being able to clear rock gardens, drops and all of the things that were ridden on those early XC trails.

[@davidhill8520]

I have a 2019 trek checkpoint 5. Great bike. Super comfortable. But gravel roads and trails only. Dangerous on proper single track trails. Great content 👍🇦🇺

[@dant.6364]

Modern ravel bikes are more like mid to late 80’s mountain bikes that were meant to be used for off road as well as touring I think. I’m thinking of my Schwinn High Plains - long wheelbase, slack head tube, double eyelets for racks and fenders. Seems like 90’s mountain bikes got twitchier and more specialized IMO.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

mmm this is an interesting observation. I think you might be right.

[@mattvanderwalt6220]

80s and early 90s bikes occationally were produced as racers or trail bikes. Usually a lack of rack mounts denotes a more race orientated frame.

[@jonntischnabel]

There was a time when we had "mountain bikes" but now we have xc, trail, enduro, downhill etc. gravel bikes are strange, as it's hard to call them a category or MTB, are they road bikes? Who knows! How many more categories will there be in another 20 years?!

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Its very interesting to observe to evolution of bike categories. Yeah imagine what it will be like :)

[@drooghead]

A gravel bike is any bike you can ride on gravel. Arguing over semantics when the range of different gravel bikes encompasses old school MTB with flat or drop bars is useless. The marketers are likely to change the definitions anyway.

[@vicwiseman6038]

LOL, I have been saying this for years! Gravel Bikes are a marketing gimmick that has mislead so many consumers! They are bad as a MTB and as a Road Bike. They have higher maintenance requirements (because they are often used as an XC MTB) and only fit the needs of a small group of cyclists (adventure touring or fire road/gravel riding). When I see a gravel bike on my local XC MTB trails (seeing less and less of them) I laugh because an XC MTB is so much better and way cheaper. It reminds me of the long travel/downhill fad where people rushed to get as much travel as possible on their MTB without considering the implications or real purpose of a downhill bike. If your local bike path is a bit rough or your roads in town have been neglected, get a gravel bike. If you plan to ride off road, get a XC MTB unless of course you have nothing better to do with your money and like servicing your bike A. LOT.

[@jasongoldenfur1253]

Gravel bikes are not 90 MTB but 70/80 touring bikes. They had drop bars and more tyre clearance than typical rod bikes, slacker head tubes and rack/fender mounts. They usually easily fit 40 mm tyre and so on. That is true parents of current gravel bike. And those old bikes with new wheels and sti shifters still perform superbly. And due to bend forks are quite comfy.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Interesting observation. I agree! I see most "average" gravel bikes with similarities to light touring bikes. And yes very similar to those older school touring bikes. I'm comparing from my Novara Randonee :)

[@ericpmoss]

Compare a 2024 Cannondale Topstone Lab 71 gravel frame and a 1990 Bianchi Intercept X-Terrain. WAY closer to each other than the modern gravel bike is to a 90's MTB.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Very fascinating!

[@watertankhikes]

I bought a new RockCombo in 1989. The concept was a good idea, but the RockCombo was poorly executed, with substandard parts. Nowadays, I won't buy any bike, road, gravel, ATB, or anywhere in between, unless it has a minimum of 700 mm front center, 450 mm chainstays, 72 degree STA max, and 69 degree HTA max. Either 27.5/650b or 29/700c are fine. I don't know of any 1980-1990's bikes that fit that criteria.

[@limchoonteck1]

It really come to how deep your pocket is! Follow the hype or sales marketing? For me just get a modern XC 29er and put on skinny XC tires.

[@jokermtb]

You're missing a critical consideration - you've completely missed the Cyclocross Bike. I have a 2000 Kona Jake The Snake cyclocross bike that I've essentially turned into a gravel bike, by adding fatter tires, wider and higher drop bar (w/ auxilary inline brake levers - frog levers), and it has a double front chainring with a high and low range capability (big ring for road, smaller ring for dirt)....I've since added fenders and a small rear rack, but it's essentially a gravel bike - with much higher capability for dirt riding than your new gravel bikes with 1x drivetrains.....something you might want to look into next on your gravel bike quest....

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Cyclocross bikes are important to look into. Another video idea that is. Couldnt cover everything unfortunately.

[@jokermtb]

@@CycleTravelOverload definitely save that comparison for another investigation.....you might be surprised by what you find.

[@madtownangler]

I just ride my 1990's bikes everywhere. You can call it what you like I just won't ride a road bike

[@josuezuniga6776]

Gravel only shows that the big heads in bicycle industry don't have any imagination to innovate,they just recycle designs

[@notpablo8369]

Wished UCI have rigid mtb races

[@trroland1248]

In that 1990s thumbnail, is that Ryder Hesjedahl, “The Chicken” Rasmussen or another Danish rider?

[@CycleTravelOverload]

This is actually Paola Pezzo Italian women's champ!

[@trroland1248]

@@CycleTravelOverload Thanks. She was a great of the era also.

[@andre9095]

“Gravel” needs to be an excuse to sell more bikes by selling fewer kinds of bikes. There are too many choices trying to differentiate at the high-end that the beginner can’t approach.

[@toddpillow3074]

You’re needlessly complicating things. Modern mt bikes have gotten so good because they quit looking to road bikes, from which early mt bikes evolved, and instead are looking to off-road motorcycles. Yeah I mean it, motorcycles figured out wheelbase, geometry and suspension decades ago but the mtb crowd wasn’t paying attention. Any modern XC bike can do it all with a mere change of gearing and tires. Gravel bikes need to forget about relating to road bikes and old mt bikes and just accept that they’re really just lightly modified XC mt bikes.

[@madtownangler]

So I guess Jon Tomac and his handlebars were ahead of the whole gravel bike lame thing

[@ecodeacon1]

Gravel schmavel - get over it n go ride yer bike !

[@WayneSmith-zx3tf]

Uh, oh!

[@philiprayner]

I was gravel biking when gravel biking was not cool just took my road bike on trails just lowered the tire pressure and road lol

[@kylesmith4653]

90’s bicycle geometry sucked!

[@CycleTravelOverload]

Agreed 👍

[@DIY-DaddyO]

Back in the 80's in the UK they were more ATBs. Nice comparison between old n new. Here's a rabbit hole for you to dive in. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Apps#:~:text=Geoffrey%20Cleland%20Apps%20(born%20London,pioneer%20of%20all%2Dterrain%20bicycles.

[@CycleTravelOverload]

The Range Rider very interesting rig!! Thanks for sharing! Reynolds 531 + 20.6” climbing gear. This thing is a beast! Ohh I've fallen down the rabbit hole :)

[@DIY-DaddyO]

@@CycleTravelOverload Ha ha, my current rig is a 531 single speed from the 80's and it rocks