Arielle Isaac Norman Knows More Than Dave Chappelle | Episode 172

Sasha and Stella welcome comedian Arielle Isaac Norman to the show for a refreshing critique of identity, comedy, and societal norms. They talk talk pronouns, reality, the impact of Trump's win in 2016, and what it means to be politically non-binary.
The discussion emphasizes Arielle's skill in using humor to address evolving dynamics within the queer community, particularly in response to today's political landscape, delivering profound insights with a comedic twist. Arielle brings an informed critique that resonates across the political spectrum, ensuring that her audience finds both laughter and moments of introspection.
Sasha affectionally describes Arielle as an “equal opportunity offender”, promising that this episode delivers a mix of both humor and discomfort certain to spark both conversation and reflection.
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[@widerlenspod]

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[@annemariegodden]

Regarding pronouns, the response I liked was from a parent (who told their child to tell people) "Our family doesn't engage in that cultural ritual."

[@cgpcgp3239]

Clever line but not true. Unless they don’t celebrate holidays or marriage.

[@luvisthedrug9890]

@@cgpcgp3239 Those are different cultural rituals though.

[@GordieGii]

@@cgpcgp3239 Sexed pronouns have nothing to do with holidays or marriage. The only possible link I can think of is queers' use of neo-pronouns as a wedge to invalidate the nuclear family. Pronouns aren't even a cultural ritual. They are merely a linguistic shortcut. Perhaps you (or Anne) were thinking of 'titles'

[@AndyJarman]

"I don't have any special demands to make."

[@cgpcgp3239]

@@GordieGii I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about

[@melodiearcher3209]

How can “fear mongering” be far right considering what is happening to women and children?

[@SavGaEckmann]

Excellent point at about 27 minutes. People are too focused on how wrong the other side is. Folks are not willing enough, or at all, to examine whether their side of an issue is wrong.

[@danak2230]

I totally agree. I'm politically moderate, and it makes me cringe listening to people I know and love talk politics because it all sounds the same if you just switch out words like MAGA, woke, communism, fascism, etc. During almost every political discussion, my friends and family complain that the other side is unreasonable while bashing them for being stupid and evil. Why the heck would the other side cooperate with you if YOU are already trash-talking THEM?!

[@ArtU4All]

The indisputable quality about comedy and satire is that “something is funny because it is true”.

[@myfriendisaac]

46:42 EXACTLY 🤷🏾‍♂️😂🔞🌈 I thank my CATTY GAY ELDERS for sharing their sense of humor with me! Take me back to the era of *taboo gays* ASAP!

[@kostaspapageorgiou6448]

Excellent point (27:00) about the devastating effect of Trump’s election on liberals’ ability to question themselves and their views and ideals. A similar polarizing effect materialized on the center-right, with people who felt vilified and misunderstood, and thus resorted to doubling down on defending and normalising Trump… Psychopaths have this effect on people, creating division and hatred on all sides

[@js4740]

Trump is the last person to blame for all this. He IS normal. The over-reaction to him is a symptom of the problem and creates the things you described. That doesnt make HIM the problem.

[@freddieoblivion6122]

It wasn't so much Trump's election as the media's selection of him as the avatar of American huite guys, which was useful for evoking the resentment of the ugly and unsuccessful against them. Without the mainstream media's stoking of that fire, people would be indifferent toward Trump. It's not an organic hatred. Ever hear him speak at his rallies? He's quite inspiring. Those that hate him are merely iphone- and media-operated golem receiving instructions to do so.

[@AINorman]

Yeah, we have to get out of this vicious cycle

[@onetwo19]

Which psychopath are you referring to? Trump? Biden? Obama? Bush or Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton?

[@gissellest333]

I suppose Biden isn't one??! Please give me a break.

[@liberality]

One thing that's really lacking these days is humour, so thanks for having Arielle on the show.

[@marianajackson4570]

In the late 1960's, I had the pleasure of hearing Eric Hoffer addressing the American Psychological Association. In my memory, he lambasted them and at the end they applauded. Alas, I can not find the talk on the internet. He worked 3 days a week as a longshoreman in San Francisco.

[@MixedTake]

I paused at 4 minutes in to go and watch the aforementioned show, and I've not howled so much in a very, very long time. Also RE: Looking "pronoun-y", I had my head shaved for a very long time, and it wasn't until one day someone asked me my pronouns, to my face. When I said "He. Him. Obviously!", they said, "Well, you never know nowadays". I'd never been so disappointed, and it absolutely tilted me. Clearly, something wasn't working and I had to adapt. You'd think resembling a skinhead would have the opposite effect but alas. That was my sliding doors moment. Amazing work as always ladies!

[@onepartyroule]

I just watched her standup special; laughed all the way through. She's really good imo.

[@bulldogklaus47]

I'm just a few years younger than Arielle but she hit the nail on the head for me. Gay people used to have the most rotten, problematic humor and we cherished it. It was our love language!

[@dimad645]

I am just 8 min in, and I am loving it. Politically non binary is hilarious, it is how I identify.

[@jessjens6563]

Thank you for this. But, can we please get away from the word "queer"?! I was a teenager in the late 80s/early 90s when the N word was "reclaimed" by black artisits and communities. I (being a member of that community) was appalled and have always believed that by "reclaiming" a word, you are actually harming yourself and the generations of people who had it hurled at them before you were even an idea. It's the same thing with the Q word. It does nothing but harm. Please, Ms. O'Malley, I love your work and i understand that you're trykng to reach a broad audience. But, stop using that word. It does not help anyone.

[@AINorman]

I’m a big proponent of separating the LGBT and the Q(+) personally

[@Nicole-ww4lg]

and some of us feel like reclaiming words is empowering *shrugs* 'weird' used to be an insult too. my mother called all kinds of THINGS queer when i was young and she meant that word very literally. queer means abnormal. those of us that aren't heterosexual are very literally queer. all of us. just not the young ones who think that word means something special.

[@Nicole-ww4lg]

or maybe we are all separate individuals politically and shouldn't be lumped together in a monolithic 'community' in the first place.

[@Gingerblaze]

@@Nicole-ww4lg queer specifically was used by queer theorists to reference those who advocated for the dissolution of societal sexual boundaries, including those between adults and children. There is a reason the original gay rights activists aorked so hard to differentiate themselves from those who claimed queer identity.

[@oliverhug3]

@@Nicole-ww4lg if you like being labeled abnormal doesn`t mean all lesbians and gay men have to like it. The gay/lesbian rights movement were fighting for to be trated as equal human beings not as abnormal freaks.

[@cgpcgp3239]

I keep hearing women are fluid in sexual preferences. I wonder where that comes from. It’s frequently repeated without saying what’s the evidence for it?

[@Gingerblaze]

Exactly. It is a rather spurious claim and appears to be a promoted belief more than a fact.

[@rvastrik]

Perhaps these factors: - hormonal fluctuations from the menstrual cycle and over the life span. - female homosexuality has historically been less taboo compared to male homosexuality. - a woman's character is often more flexible and susceptible to change compared to men.

[@AINorman]

There have been studies hooking vaginas up to plethysmographs and showing them various kinds of erotic film. Women lowkey respond to all of it, whereas men’s blood flow only responded to the porn of their stated sexuality. Also survey data shows women’s sexuality shifting over the years, also almost every woman I’ve ever known…

[@ingridbean]

Idk about evidence but I've observed it irl. I've known far more bi girls than bi guys, and straight girls often admit to some level of fluidity in their sexuality, whereas guys are more likely to be 100% straight. I think it makes sense biologically because of hormonal differences. Men are more wired for physical attraction, whereas women are more wired towards emotional connection, so it makes sense that women are less likely to completely rule out one sex.

[@cgpcgp3239]

@@ingridbean Personal experience is not the same as evidence.

[@John-tr5hn]

I love it when you two have down-to-earth people as guests. When she was talking about how the LGB community used to be the most irreverent, I really thought about that, and I do miss it. Many of my gay friends absolutely won't spend time with people younger than Arielle because they're tired of the tragic judginess.

[@seasidesue816]

Huge respect for this guest!

[@alittlesewing]

Arielle, you are so funny. I laughed so much listening to you!

[@AINorman]

🥰

[@GordieGii]

When she said some queer people don't know anything about AGP, did she mean LGB people or Queer ideologues?

[@StormBringer5]

She probably meant LGB. But even then, I’ve heard quite a few female detransitioners say they didn’t know about AGP for years, presumably because they only interacted with other trans identified females.

[@jessi4894]

​@StormBringer5 As a member of the LGB, I recoil whenever I hear the word "queer." It means something totally different than Lesbian, Gay or Bi. Queer is a Marxist ideological term.

[@Gingerblaze]

@@StormBringer5 AGP is something many trans identifying males rebuke and deny the exsistence of. There is a rather large campaign by trans rights activists to disparage the condition as a real paraphilia which underlies the largest vast majority of trans identifying males globally.

[@alittlesewing]

I assumed she meant AGP (autogynephilia)

[@llkoolbean4935]

Autogynephilia

[@aidananstey9848]

I identify as nonBidenary😂

[@goddessgirl5891]

I don't know who you DO plan to vote for, but if you aren't already supporting Trump, and if you haven't listened to RFK Jr., he is against medicalizing children, will restore Title IX protections for biological women, and his VP pick, Nicole Shanahan, in an interview with Riley Gaines, made a point of saying that, if elected, they would be looking at what's fueling the trans craze. There are so many other things I admire about him, and his policy positions will benefit actual Americans.

[@AINorman]

@@goddessgirl5891Yes!! At least be RFK-curious

[@aidananstey9848]

@@goddessgirl5891 I heard RFK Jr's VP pick was a hard leftist with WEF ties, and I saw RFK's interview with Sage Steele where he said PARENTS should choose whether or not to trans their kids and women and their doctors should choose whether or not to ab*rt in the 9th month, I also watched his interview with Megyn Kelly where he backtracked on both of those things after he found them to be unpopular views, so I don't know whether he can be trusted. He is also a hardcore on climate change so what type of policies will he back trying to stop the weather changing and how much will that cost the people?

[@aidananstey9848]

@@AINorman I heard RFK Jr's VP pick was a hard leftist with WEF ties, and I saw RFK's interview with Sage Steele where he said PARENTS should choose whether or not to tr*ns their kids and women and their doctors should choose whether or not to ab*rt in the 9th month, I also watched his interview with Megyn Kelly where he backtracked on both of those things after he found them to be unpopular views, so I don't know whether or not he can be trusted. He is also hardcore on climate change, so what sort of policies would he support trying to stop the weather changing and how much would that cost the people?

[@aidananstey9848]

@@goddessgirl5891 I think Trump deserves another term just for what the democrats are putting him through. They can't be rewarded for trying to bankrupt and imprison a former President over ridiculous BS.

[@GordieGii]

Where does this notion that pronouns have anything to do with respect come from? I'm a non-binary male. My pronouns are I/me. If you want to know what pronouns to use for me when talking about me to someone else, please use the pronouns that you think they would assume if they saw me from across the room. The purpose for having gendered pronouns is to reduce confusion while speeding up speech by not repeating names superfluously, not increase confusion.

[@VioletProVixen]

You are just a man, dude. If masculinity doesn't speak to your nature, you have the power to be whatever you want to be. But you're still a man.

[@siobhannoble8545]

A non-binary male? So, a man then.

[@Engrave.Danger]

Being "non-binary male", if you were filling out a survey that asked if you're trans, would you check yes?

[@oliverhug3]

"Non-binary male".🤔

[@Engrave.Danger]

@@oliverhug3 it sounds as though they recognize biology but don't subscribe to gender stereotypes. Sounds like gender non-conformity to me but for some reason that's not cool anymore. 🤷‍♂️

[@danak2230]

I loved Arielle's observation that older generations of gay/queer people really struggled and, therefore, leaned into dark humor and had more lightheartedness that way. I think that is probably true. Sometimes all you have going for you is gallows humor. I disagree about polyamory/polygamy being of benefit to kids, though. Societies who practice this tend to have higher rates of domestic abuse. Sister wives are in competition with each other to get resources from the husband. Even in a society where women work and therefore don't need financial resources from the husband, his time and attention is a resource, too. It's been documented that sister wives will sometimes abuse each other's kids to control the other wives and get status, though this is in more patriarchal societies where women don't have a choice about the polygamy. I suspect that even with the sister wives being friends who pick some guy they both like, as in her example, things likely would sour. How do you compromise on a guy you both love? What if one wants guy A but the other wants guy B? Also, what if the guy likes one friend more than the other? Or he has 3 kids with one, but only 1 with the other. Does that mean one wife gets to outsource some of her parenting to the ither wife, so the kids get equal mom time? Or does one set of kids just have less mommy time while their sibling has all of his/her mom's attention? And even if both mom's help with all kids, I doubt a woman is going to feel as much love for her friend's kid as one she birthed. I think it would be like having a roommate that is also sleeping with your husband. Even though they'd be living in the same home (presumably), so they don't have to schedule different days for hubby to visit with different families, you still have to try to find time for everyone to feel they are in the relationship and that their children or their mom has equal status. It would leave too much room for jealousy and favoritism. I don't think it would end up with each kid having extra mom time. I think each kid would just have less dad time. I love my friends, but I just want to live next door to them and help each other in a neighborly way. 😊

[@aliocha688]

Stella has a beautiful voice!

[@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367]

Around min 52, the argument is not about "forcing" bakers to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings. It's about discrimination on an unlawful basis. If gays have all the rights and privileges of straights, should a vendor be able to refuse service to them on the basis of their gay sexuality? How is it different from refusing service to a black couple or interracial couple who want a cake for their wedding? Whether you want a homophobic baker is not the point. Whether the baker can refuse service to you as a protected demographic is the point. The black people who sat at lunch counters in the South in the 60s, didn't want to pay for meals from racists. They wanted to be free to eat everywhere white people could eat. So, you are saying that the same "rights" model does not apply to black people and to gay people? Interesting premise, but if not, what model does apply? How do you prevent discrimination?

[@MysticMom75]

A lunch counter is different than a creative services business where text and messaging is part of the service. For instance, if you are Jewish doctor and a patient comes in with a swastika tattoo you are required to still treat that patient. However if you are Jewish tattoo artist and a man comes in requesting a swastika tattoo, you should not be required to create that tattoo. I am not comparing a gay wedding cake to a swastika tattoo in a moral equivalency way, but what I’m saying is the rules that allow a baker to turn down a customer based on their belief system is the same rule that allows the tattoo artist to turn away the skinhead.

[@dra2033]

I’m a lesbian and the misinfo re the “wedding cake case” annoys me to no end. It’s not about the cake, denying a service or gay weddings - all those factors are a distraction and irrelevant to the legal question at hand which is can the state compel an individual to make a specific statements that violate his/her conscious? NO, it cannot.

[@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367]

@@dra2033 That's just over-parsing. The white people who owned those lunch counters could have made the same free speech argument. They probably did. I think the people who sued the baker, claimed discriminatory failure to provide the service and his defense won on the basis of free speech. Anyway, America is full of compelled speech and compelled avoidance of other speech. I actually don't give a rat's arse about the baker case. I just think Norman's comment is misinformed.

[@AndyJarman]

52:30 the point Liberalism crosses over into authoritarianism is when people use compunction to comply. It's the point where you have to believe in the religion of socialism, Critical Social Justice, and deny that you cannot see into other people's hearts.

[@janmariolle]

“Far right” just means sensible or moderate now, no room for offense.

[@onetwo19]

Why didn't Sasha or Stella ask Arielle what she means by saying she is dude - like? I would have loved to have heard all the male stereotypes that she believes makes her masculine.

[@sablethompson4729]

I like her take. You can really lean into being masculine and play around casually with what you call yourself. That doesn’t mean you need to go through some sort of medical process

[@ienekevanhouten4559]

Thanks!

[@widerlenspod]

Thank you for your support!

[@balalaika852]

There was a thread on the poly subreddit by a person who was raised in a poly household. Their mother is in relationships with two men who are best friends, all three were friends from a young age. She had kids with both of them, they all live together. All the kids were considered each other's siblings, not half-singlings. The kids know who their biological dad is, but the OP said they still catch themselves thinking, "my nose is this shape cause I got it from my other dad". From their story it seemed the only issue was other people's prejudice. Personally, I don't see why a sexual romantic relationship between mother and father is needed to raise healthy, well-adjusted children, and why this relationship must be exclusive.

[@jac9366]

I'm going to have to start commenting quite early. I can't imagine possibly wanting to listen to a podcast titled "gender fluids", however have no difficulty understanding the importance of the "s" Just bizarre the difficulty described in being introduced. Also politically non binary. So already entertaining imaging the frustration!

[@mrstiger5497]

I can't watch - Stella, catch up - the "queer community" doesn't exist. "Queer" is a political statement, not a sexuality. Keep on being the adult, don't try to "get down with the kids", please!

[@AINorman]

You know, I actually pinged on that a bit too from the into. Stella really just means I’m gay and know lots of gays and queers.

[@gissellest333]

Me neither.

[@techs120project]

@@mrstiger5497 i chimed in later than you before i had a chance to read other comments... i couldn't stomach more than a few minutes of this interview. Glad to see other comments in the same vein.

[@GordieGii]

Trans isn't a sexuality either. It's a cultural statement.

[@techs120project]

@@GordieGii good point, and I also argue that trans is a prefix that means across, and it has no meaning unless it's attached to a root! It is an utterly meaningless word by itself. Is it a transsexual? A transgender? Transvestite? Transatlantic? Transamerica? Transport? Transform? Translucent? Transparent? An utterly stupid abbreviation, which probably was designed to confuse the issue. For example, the young people claimed to be trans non-binary. That literally makes zero sense .

[@dennissilcott5860]

I'm surprised the hosts, that claim to be a psychologist/therapist, weren't familiar with the book by Eric Hoffer, True Believer. I read it decades ago in high school or college.

[@HebaruSan]

34:51 - Kicking her out of the queer community? So would that have made her an ex-lesbian? And then wouldn't that be conversion therapy? (Sorry, non-comedian here wanting to join in the fun)

[@balalaika852]

On the point of using polyamory to deal with something else, like get validation or attention - you can say the same thing about any relationship structure. I know plenty of people who got into normative monogamous relationships just because they were lonely. I know plenty of people who got married because they wanted to appease their parents. I know plenty of people who hate their spouse, but won't divorce and separate because they don't want to feel like a failure and they are terrified of being judged. We all understand people are different. Some like to live in cities, some hate cities. Some are foodies, some are happy to live on Soylent. Some like to travel and experience new things, some hate unfamiliar things. Why then, when it comes to relationships, only one way is the right way? How is it possible that everyone should want marriage, monogamy, kids, shared house, and shared finances? Why in this area we are all the same?

[@barrykochverts4149]

Oh, I've got to see Arielle's standup! It's so refreshing when you get a queer person who doesn't think their vision has to be forced on others, and truly wants all people to be comfortable in their own space. Besides, this idea of one guy to service two women seems quite sensible :)!

[@AINorman]

If you tell me what town you’re in, I can let you know when I’ll be there next!

[@kashq502]

Shes not wrong about the politicians and blackmail thing...

[@janebennetto5655]

❤🇬🇧

[@geoffalpert3678]

David/lucas

[@AndyJarman]

49:00 illustrates the Achilles heel of liberalism. Just how liberal is too liberal and how do we decide.

[@281992pdr]

"...there's nothing wrong with being an autistic pervert..." What am I missing here? Take away the adjective 'autistic' and we have pervert. Some dictionary references: "Perverse - Persistent in error; different from what is reasonable or required; wicked; Perversion - preference for a form of sexual activity other than normal intercourse [it is widespread that normal today does include LGB] ; Pervert (noun) - perverted person; person showing perversion of sexual instincts." When it applies to the realm of sex, what is ok about being perverted? Please don't reply with something like it all being relative or an entirely personal thing or she was saying it toungue in cheek (there is no indication of that). Words have meanings (yes they do change incrementally over time with usage) and succeeding generations of children are taught language and grammar in schools so that they can confidently go about growing and living in a world where, amongst other things, they can rely on what most people say, or avoid being conned. What parent or friend would accept without reservation their child or friend saying seriously: "Oh, I'm dating a pervert." And you could append whatever adjective you like but the reaction would still be the same - concern. We are living in uniquely stupid times. (As an aside, the whole of transworld is awash with waves of linguistic distortion, and I think too many people are dragged under by it.)

[@AINorman]

Eh, I just meant it's fine to have kinks and shit. It shouldn't become a public matter or identity though, that's for the bedroom (or consensual parties or whatever). I suppose you're right that the word "pervert" should maybe specifically be used for when you make it a public thing.

[@laurahaynes8558]

Almost unwatchable.... to culturally load pronouns like this is crazy, word-salad talk

[@AndyJarman]

The openess to polyamory is born of a society where the extended family has been lost. Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents would have supported flagging family members in the past. This resource just isn't available to people in an atomised mobile society. The effect on men of societies that allow multiple wives is quite confronting. Go live in an Arabic speaking country, see how the men regard women. It's important to bear in mind leacherous objectifying behaviour from low status men is not the reason for polygamy, it results from it. Compare the behaviour of men in France and Utaly with the behaviour of men in Scandinaviour. Illicit affairs (occult polyamory) is far more integrated into Catholic societies where divorce is not an option, than Protestant countries where divorce is still seen as a failure, but nevertheless is not stigmatised as it might have been fifty years ago.

[@ffredjones]

The research on polygamous societies is very interesting. From what I understand it leads to more violent societies and doesn't end well for women or many men.

[@jollygoode4153]

I suppose trying to understand troubled people like this could be worthwhile for a therapist but as for learning something from the likes of her, I think not. Wallowing in the immaturity of the culture this person sees as normal is a bit pointless. Instead of indulging any of this I think it is better to point out how misguided it all is.

[@slacktoryrecords4193]

Isn’t she pointing out how misguided it is by making fun of it? Humor is often the best way to deflate this kind of tension.

[@UnquenchableHarvest]

This comedian person is Qanon. I concluded this at about the 50 min mark when she started talking about bohemian Grove and the abuse of kids. Yeahhh, that's multiple red flags, INTERNET NUTTER DETECTED.

[@AINorman]

Hah, not at all. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove

[@UnquenchableHarvest]

@@AINorman ANOTHER INTERNET NUTTER DETECTED

[@AINorman]

@@UnquenchableHarvestyes, I think I’ve found one

[@UnquenchableHarvest]

@@AINorman NO U!!!1

[@twatmunro]

If only she was as funny as Dave Chappelle...

[@freddieoblivion6122]

Haven't seen him in a while... wonder why ;)

[@chrisb9345]

​@@freddieoblivion6122 because he got 20 mil from Netflix for each of his 5 specials, and he has been working on new material since then?

[@AINorman]

Did you watch my standup? Anyway I love Chapelle, but his latest special was as phoned in as could be.

[@goddessgirl5891]

@@AINorman I saw your stand-up special and thought it was very funny!

[@sophiafaith]

49:35 TRUTH

[@janebennetto5655]

❤🇬🇧