Stock & McCloskey Debate Issues of Sex, Gender, & Identity

[@rubyruby6358]

Holy sh*t...comparing not having access to books as a child the same as losing a penis/breasts/ability to have children in the future? NOT the same.

[@spirit796]

Kathleen Stock deserves several medals on so many fronts for this debate. She was extremely gracious, professional, respectful, patient and kind too. Deidre sadly came across as having little grasp on the reality of the current issues being debated. Attempts to bait about bygone laws and other largely irrelevant anecdotes seemed to be to trap KS and divert the debate into something that suited DMs incoherent argument. Thankfully KS wasn't fooled and was completely clear and coherent. Personally I would have liked to hear her full set of arguments about the trans activists and treatments. It would have been somewhat more helpful than the opponent's wandering waffle. They, DM, weren't wholly unpleasant, but the condescending 'dear' peppered throughout isn't something a woman would say to another woman. It is something that a rather patronising man might well say though.

[@polyannamoonbeam]

McCloskey is over 80 now- a generational gap with cultural contrasts but she did refer to herself as a more macho woman as her previous life as a man was more like that due to her upbringing- she was not unaware of this ;)

[@KH-aug]

Yes, McCloskey appears to be an absolutely typical autogynephile, successful in a traditionally male-dominated field, 'transitioning' well into middle age and narcissistically pressing his wife to put up with his fetish. That he can concede that his height makes it harder for him to pass (as do his large hands and feet and broader than average shoulders, although about these he may be less proud), indicates no great clarity of thought.

[@stefaniemoses1768]

He's definatley less macho but he is also still a man.

[@БорянаЦенева]

When I heard him call her "dear" I thought how patronizing and condescending.

[@БорянаЦенева]

@@chriskingsland4360 the 80 year old is not a she.

[@CAPUTO000]

so just like a person who wasn't born an ice cream salesperson can became one, a man who wasn't born a woman can become one too? do i have that right? good effin' grief, is that really where we're at in the 21st century? and, my god, stock displays the patience of an angel as she politely pretends that this is a serious conversation, an adult conversation, as opposed to the utter madness that it really is...

[@HellCatt0770]

Apparently the reality of being a woman and all our experiences are irrelevant! ‘Woman’ is just a fantasy role play for men to get-off on.

[@clairewalker3845]

I’m sorry but Deidre McCloskey isn’t making any sense or making any coherent arguments.

[@scottbuchanan9426]

Agreed. The (alleged) analogy between young people going through irreversible medical transitions and young people not being read to in the home was particularly risible.

[@RenegadeContext]

Or driving unsafely, kids can't get driving licenses for exactly that reason but it's ok to surgically alter themselves. It's insane

[@nicolaapps6889]

And the "dear" so reminiscent of some cis white males "of a certain age"

[@Out_on_a_Limb_Life]

Thank you for saying what I was about to. She barely answered any questions coherently and the comparison between not being read to as a child and losing your sexual organs really got my goat. As @nicolaapps6889 observed, Deirdre's whole stance reminded me very vividly of a patronising older male. You could virtually see her patting the excellent Kathleen Stock on the head, 'dear'.

[@jujutrini8412]

McCloskey thinks being a woman is like putting on a costume or playing a role/position. Stock thinks being a woman is being born with female reproductive organs and XX chromosomes (and costume, role or position has nothing to do with it whatsoever). I happen to agree with Stock.

[@stefaniemoses1768]

Kathleen Stock and that bit... "but I'm not a man" The silence coming from around the room, just deafening 😁

[@ShortandSweetJenNCharlie]

Kathleen deserves a bloody medal after that - She has patience of a saint - McCloskey had to coherent argument at all - just a lot of anti-state propaganda - well we all live in a society where the state is responsible for many things. Yes no one wants a totalitarian state - but I don't want lawless anarchy either!

[@ShortandSweetJenNCharlie]

@chris kingsland no I don't do drugs! I'm also very competent at listening Try it sometime

[@bkilg2509]

I also don't see how the state argument was at all relevant.

[@leighparr7961]

​@@ShortandSweetJenNCharlie I believe we're moving into a totalitarian technocracy and this trans/non binary nonsense is part of it. Read 1984 and I do do drugs I'm afraid lol.

[@Annie-qp5iu]

He keeps saying he passes but he doesn't.

[@moraymac2922]

It’s a bloke!!!!

[@RenegadeContext]

You're not allowed point that out or you shatter the fantasy. He said he never felt dysphoric so it's likely this is an autogynophilic transition and that's a fetish that demands the world affirms it in order for it to work. These are the people who need children to transition because then they can point to young boys who have been feminised pre puberty and say "look that's me, this is what trans women are" reaffirming their fantasy. It's incredibly creepy. Anyone advocating for child transition is deploy disturbed or deeply uninformed

[@tobyo9176]

This is why they opted for no debate. Well done Kathleen

[@Missfredawallace]

still up for the debate.

[@maryjacobs5920]

You sound like you have epha

[@maryjacobs5920]

So how was rocks were used

[@megazw7740]

Explains a lot doesn't it.

[@megazw7740]

​@@maryjacobs5920If you scult a man out of rock, it doesn't make it a man... its still a rock.

[@KH-aug]

I'm just 16 min. in and McCloskey's just claimed that*both* tennis star Williams sisters have large, masculine-looking muscles. Um, no. Venus is and has always been strong and toned but quite slender. And, although Serena's muscularity used to be somewhat unusual for a tennis player, it certainly wasn't when compared to some female athletes in other sports. (Nowadays much of her size can be attributed to womanly weight, or female middle-aged spread and general weight gain. It happens.) McCloskey's sloppiness -- at best -- is showing itself right off the bat. More to the point, especially in this context, appearance doesn't dictate performance, at all. But then McCloskey seems to be all about appearance.

[@jovialnobody]

It's thinly-veiled racism. Notice when he said he's about to say something "dangerous" and it was the old line TRa's use of how black women were discriminated against and told they don't have the same rights as white women, (very sloppily done, too), you can see Kathleen take a deep breath there and roll her eyes cause it was only a matter of time before "well, black women weren't considered women because they're black" was mentioned.

[@KH-aug]

Yep. And what he calls small issues like sports, restrooms and changing rooms happen to matter to most people, males as well as females. His whole slippery slope notion regarding sports, race and sex on the one hand and transgenderism on the other is just such low-level thinking, so ignorant of both history and science. Attribute overlap doesn't obviate category. What kind of economist or for that matter literary specialist can be have been without base-line critical thinking skills?! Good that his preening foolishness was recorded though.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

Where does he get off talking about how _anyone_ looks??? Has he ever _seen_ a mirror? JFC.

[@scepticalPhil]

Kathleen Stock is wonderful and it's always saddening to see her having to debate with individuals so far below her intellect. This TW has clearly never read into this topic of discussion at all and has no interest in the care and protection of children and women.

[@rachelbassett4942]

Agreed x

[@jovialnobody]

It's very difficult to debate someone whose bulk of arguments relies primarily on personal feelings / anecdotes, and how will simply dismiss evidence when presented (18:31). I applaud Kathleen for her immense patience and decorum.

[@Diamondsparkle788]

Are there some men who do care about women and children? X

[@Diamondsparkle788]

His wife divorced him and his son and daughter have disowned him. Because it's wrong what he's done.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

@@Diamondsparkle788 It’s possible that the guy who wrote the comment that started this thread cares, given what he wrote :)

[@coreyfisher2542]

Last year my heroes were black conservatives. Now they’re English lesbians. Who knew?

[@28daysleitor]

Wow, what sort of transition process did they have to go through to make that change?

[@amandalevesongower5100]

many of us are on the left

[@cmmndrblu]

You summed that up beautifully hahaha

[@dinalltidalltid]

​@@28daysleitor haha I laughed out loud

[@OoooohNellee]

Lol

[@RB-jl2qb]

Now I understand why the TRA’s say no debate. They don’t have a coherent reason for enforcing gender identity laws on society at all. McCloskey really is a condescending man and Kathleen Stock deserves a medal for being so gracious towards this man who is definitely not her intellectual or compassionate equal

[@Missfredawallace]

there is a debate.

[@catspeakegroove]

"they've lost their penises!" Interlocutor.: "Not true"

[@RenegadeContext]

I have seen some coherent arguments on minor issues but overall it falls apart as soon as you take biology into account and data showing the opposite of their claims to be true

[@baconsarny-geddon8298]

McCloskey's callous indifference to life-long harm to children, and his narcissistic fixation with his own all-important "validation", are disturbing af. And the is the BEST that the pro-trans side can muster up?!? Sorry, but this issue is SIMPLE... (Sex-independent) "Gender" is a complete fiction, but BIOLOGCAL SEX is real, 100% evidence-based, and is PROVABLY linked to stuff like physical size and strength, tendency towards violent/sex crimes, and of course, capacity to get pregnant. Which isn't to say that ALL men, or ALL mtf's are predatory... But it IS saying that there is A REASON why, in literally EVERY society, in ALL human history, people have been divided by the biological reality of evidence-based SEX.... not by the 100% evidence-free, 20 year old pseudo-religious concept of sex-independent "gender"... So fvck your "validation"; ONE man in a dress CHOOSING to seek having his "womanhood" "validated" doesn't outweigh ALL women and girls having their right to safety and privacy removed, through NO choice of their own. Even if there WAS more than zero evidence for sex-independent "gender" being something other than complete fiction... that STILL wouldn't make it reasonable that a single "trans-woman" could choose to forfeit the rights of MULTIPLE unconsenting women, in the name of "her" all-important validation.... But back in the real world, where there ISN'T any evidence that "gender" even exists, there isn't even any rational argument, to be had... (....Which is probably why WE DON'T SEE RATIONAL ARGUMENT from the pro-trans side- We only see screeching accusations of ""TRANSPHOBE!!!!"" and a non-sensical narrative that it's somehow "genocide" to NOT chemically sterlilize children...)

[@rosemaryalles6043]

Kathleen is a star. She always is.

[@unnamed3932]

Dr. Stock is so patient in the face of his ludicrous arguments and inapt analogies.

[@rachelbassett4942]

Kathleen is simply brilliant and has the patience of a Saint... Brilliant first question and that's what most of are thinking

[@squatch545]

Are you her sister? What an obsequious cheerleading and ideologically vacuous comment.

[@stefaniemoses1768]

That word comes to me again... Begins with I ending in L 🤭😂🤣

[@rachelbassett4942]

@chriskingsland4360 nothing to see here

[@KH-aug]

@Joe Smith What? Do please explain what you dislike about the first question, 'Why do you feel like you're a woman and not a feminine man?' Do you think the answer's obvious? If so, it sure isn't to McCloskey, seeing as he never answers the question.

[@rachelbassett4942]

8

[@Gerry_Davies]

No wonder they clung on to #NoDebate for so long! Brava Doc Stock!

[@Suscida]

Wow, that was painful to listen to well done Kathleen for not burying your head in your hands, the entire time

[@jacovanzyl5609]

Such a courageous initiative. I appreciate Kathleen Stock's clarity of argument. I found quite a few of Deidre's arguments to be loose non sequiturs and red herrings. If this were a more robust and formal debate, those arguments would have been torn to smithereens.

[@chrisrayne3274]

Bravery, logic, reason and integrity, all wrapped up with genuine compassion and clarity of argument. Kathleen Stock is rapidly becoming a global asset.

[@Jenny-nz8fb]

There’s a phrase that goes something like “never argue with a stupid person as they’ll bring you down to their level”. Glad to see Kathleen managed not to dumb down her position.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

I'm not sure Kathleen's position could be dumbed-down any more.

[@RenegadeContext]

Never argue with an idiot or they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Great and very relevant quote :)

[@lbsb7074]

I totally agree! I love Kathleen.

[@ruqayyapervaiz5366]

When I was going through puberty, I hated being a girl because of getting periods. I wanted to be a boy so I wouldn't go through it. If someone had listened to me and transitioned me, I would have been depressed and confused. Today I love being a woman, mother, wife. I also loved playing with boys toys, a bit of a tomboy does that make me a boy. NO

[@babysis6.059]

I'm convinced that in recent days a lot of these young girls are claiming to be boys simply to avoid having a period, and I think a lot of this problem stems from parents being afraid to say no to their children from very young ages

[@applesandpears9756]

Me too. I was in an abusive family which also impacted me as I saw women as victims. I identified as a boy for about 8 years...dressed in suits and ties and had short hair... not attracted to women, so it was a protection for me. I grew up. Had 2 children and am a grandma... I needed help and support at that time which I didn't get, but today, I'd be transed. Horrific.

[@advocate1563]

So true. I have a nephew who used to wear pink proncess drwssea aged 3/4. He's now an officer in the Royal Marines (very tough process). Let kids be. They work it out without our imposition. Two ears, one mouth around our precious children.

[@laurykristensen6239]

I wonder if some of the late bloomer trans women are a result of years of repressing so called "feminine" qualities. Deidre claims a woman is a social construct. I see it as society has pushed masculine and feminine qualities onto men & women respectively, and the qualities are the social constructs. There is the social ideal of a "man" and of a "woman" based on these traits (constructs). Almost all personality traits are associated as either male or female. Objects like toys, and interests are also either masculine or feminine. If little Johnny is told only girls play with dolls, what conclusions will he make? The root causes, I believe, are the labels assigned. People just want their outsides to match their insides.

[@applesandpears9756]

@@laurykristensen6239 The penis is on the outside.

[@TubeDude78]

It's wonderful to see a respectful dialogue around this topic, and McCloskey deserves credit for participating in this sort of thing when most other trans figures would stay far away, but I hate to say it, McCloskey was a very disappointing interlocuter compared to Stock. Her understanding of the many issues around this topic were woefully unsophisticated and seemed ignorant of what is actually going on in society now. It almost felt like she was speaking to the issue as it played out in society a decade (or more) ago.

[@rachelbassett4942]

My thoughts exactly.. especially the term TERF

[@Chicharrera.]

His understanding. He is a man. He even said his body screams XY.

[@nowwhat1434]

No trans activist is a good debater because their entire point is STUPID

[@KH-aug]

No no, it's Stock who's "naive" according to McCloskey, just after 28:28 (maybe start at 27:06). For sheer arrogant idiocy, what a piece of work he is. The worst kind of academic, attempting to lock horns with the very best kind of academic, with woeful results.

[@fionawhiteford2128]

please stop calling him a her ..he is clearly not a women ..only in his fantasies and i will not be pressured or guilt shamed into validating his delusion

[@karynirwin2477]

Dierdre: I have no evidence but I know I'm right, dear!

[@karynirwin2477]

By the end I wanted to punch that odious git every time he called her "Dear"

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

Gag!

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

What did he say "I've got evidence too, dear, but it's not slam bang evidence" But I'm thinking I'm pretty sure Kathleen has actually got slam bang evidence 😂

[@reddragonready]

Hahahaha THE best one line summing up of Deidre's side of this debate

[@bovinicide]

This is painful - Kathleen is just on another level of intellect.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

Don't give her too much credit. One does not need to be particularly intellectual to exist in fundamental reality. She is brave though, since the horde of mentally ill harpies descend on any academic who doesn't parrot _the message_

[@HellCatt0770]

EVERYONE not addled by porn is on another level! I like to call it called reality.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

You realise that her whole schtick is word-gaming around to make it seem that trans people are denying sex, right? Does that take intellect? Or does even partaking in something so stupid show a lack of it?

[@reddragonready]

@@Capybarrrraaaa Try actually reading her book..though that does of course take intellect.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

@@reddragonready Why would I read her book when she can't even address our claims accurately and honestly?

[@fromthedarkpool1863]

I find Deirdre disrespectful, condescending and embarrassing. Interrupting Kathleen before she has finished speaking and condescendingly calling her ‘dear’ is the least cringe thing about this to me, but using archaic and derogatory language such as ‘dyke’ and ‘plumbing’ 😬 continuing to use the term ‘terf’ while admitting it’s a slur and actually comparing a child losing their penis forever to ‘losing the life of the mind’ because parents didn’t read to their child enough is embarrassing. Deirdre lacks the diplomacy, respect and intellect to sit on the same platform as Kathleen and while Deidre may identify as a woman, I hear nothing but a chauvinistic and patriarchal man.

[@msaveourgirls9068]

Amen!!

[@smoly37]

I haven't even thought about that aspect...I was far too busy with being annoyed and agitated about all the non sense. But now that you pointed it out: you're absolutely right. Deirdre also, in my view, contradicts herself and makes indeed rediculous comparisments.

[@IvyRoad]

Yes! I know someone irl who underwent male-to-female transition later in life, and their malesplaining continued unabated after transition. McCloskey does it here even to the point of calling Stock “dear”. It seems, if you have lived as a man, that place at life’s podium is a very hard position to relinquish.

[@patriciathewisher2315]

They must’ve removed McCloskey’s brain when they removed his penis

[@krisullman8722]

I’m a conservative female - not a feminist but this Deirdre is a *typical male* the way he talks to Kathleen is condescending and man-splaining

[@emilyhusain2801]

Dr Stock asserted that no one can define a woman beyond 'adult human female' without immediately resorting to sexist stereotypes, but immediately her interlocutor made a very cogent point about how long it takes women to get dressed, which was absolutely dispositive. The way he kept calling her 'dear'...

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

Funny how he wants to _be_ the very thing he ridicules … makes my brain hurt 🙄

[@chantresewilliams6940]

Yeah, he was a condescending prick with the repeated “dear.”

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

I love Stock's opinion on this matter, because it's just so funny. Going beyond 'female' is sexist because it stereotypes, but EVERYONE uses gender to infer sex. Including her. She doesn't go-up to people and take blood tests to determine their chromosomal make-up. She assumes their sex based on their aesthetic appearance and conduct. It's a self-admission to seeing herself as a massive sexist and that she thinks everyone is sexist.

[@KH-aug]

@Capybara Capybara. Imagine a world in which there's no such thing as wrong-sex hormones being dispensed like candy, as happens at college clinics and Planned Parenthoods in much of the U.S.; where girls and women in their teens and twenties never get their healthy breasts amputated; and where therapists know that careful, professional work with the gender questioning doesn't equate to gay conversion therapy, quite the opposite. In such a fabled world, which *was* the world about eight years ago and earlier, strangers could discern virtually all post-pubescent teens' and adults' sex with just a glance and, for any edge cases, a listen. It's simply the way our species evolved. Beyond that, any assumptions you held in this world about how an adult male or female *ought* to behave was all about you and your stereotypes. Some ppl still held them of course, but many people, and probably most, knew better. You knew that while you could never be sure what a stranger was thinking, if you had any level of maturity and self confidence, you didn't much care. Ultimately you understood that recognizing sex differences in the sexually mature wasn't stereotyping, it was merely understanding that unlike some species, homo sapiens is sexually dimorphic. Those with DSD's don't change this fact in the least, as they'll be the first to tell you. An emotionally mature person treats each person with base-line respect and as an individual, whatever their sex. You may want to watch a few Paradox Institute videos to better understand the details of sex difference. Or read/watch the Bad Arguments section of the Peak Trans website. Keeping healthy-bodied people's bodies healthy, not damaged and medicalized for life, is a good thing.

[@farapipsqueek636]

​@@Capybarrrraaaa wait what? We DO make stereotypes because most of the time they are true. And 99% of the time if you see someone with breasts and hips that person is chromosomally female. Not always though. I am not sure your point? A trans woman IS male. Biologically there is no difference between a trans woman and a cis man. Over 99% of the time

[@katiebrigden3550]

Kathleen Stock speaks clearly and with authority citing evidence for her points, Deirdre speaks in a rambling incoherent way ,not answering questions. Kathleen Stock used Deirdres preferred pronouns and Deirdre called Kathleen "dear" ........his misogyny showed.

[@meshzzizk]

“dear” in contexts like this is a British thing (iirc McCloskey has lived in England for some time) - Russell Brand did the same thing to a male interlocutor on Bill Maher’s show the other night and Hitchens used to do this when a male debate partner was getting worked up.

[@meshzzizk]

51:58

[@KH-aug]

This is interesting, but the more obvious context is, to those not in the know about his UK experience, this is an elderly male American (with an American accent) supposedly speaking quasi-professionally, expert to expert, while physically in the American South. Everything about his use of 'dear' says patronizing, perhaps aware-that-he's-losing, old man. Sorry to seem or be ageist. Really it's his narcissism which is at issue.

[@EvilGrapefruit]

@@meshzzizk when British people say it they are not being complimentary to the person who they are calling dear. Russell brand and Christopher Hitchens would not call Kathleen stock dear unless they were being deliberately offensive

[@meshzzizk]

@@EvilGrapefruit I didn’t say it was complimentary. I disputed that it was “misogynist”

[@markd2209]

It’s 2023. Over 10,000 years of human history. Why is this so hard to understand. There are men, there are women. Each has their own personality. If you feel some disconnect with the sex of your body/DNA, then you have a mental affliction. You deserve treatment, and basic respect and sympathies like any other medical struggle. But you are still a man or woman, and it is not our collective responsibility in any way to go along with the delusion this affliction is telling you. Full stop.

[@Chicharrera.]

It is very simple to understand when it's explained to you. This is part of the eugenics movement. At this stage of advanced science, medicine and technology the elites want transhumanism. We have been transhumans for 60 years now. The contraceptive pill started the process off. When a woman can swallow a small pill that will allow her autonomy over her body, then she had gone beyond her womanhood and into the realm of personhood. Transgenderism is the current phase of this push for bodily autonomy. It's why it is being pushed onto children, and younger and younger at that. The future of civilization is not a pretty one. Man has enjoyed playing God for hundreds of years. But, man isn't God and each attempt at fiddling with the human body only further destroys society. Did you know that there are current experimentation of uterus transplants? It has been done successfully in women, where a woman had another woman's uterus transplanted into her body, conceived a child, carried it to term, then birthed it via c-section? There is a doctor in India who is trialling this on men. He wants to be the first doctor to do it successfully. That is one example of the future. The progressives like to borrow our vocabulary but not our dictionary. They like to cloak their evil intentions behind a wall of benign sounding euphemisms in a slight of hand process. They gaslight the public into thinking they mean one thing when in fact they mean the opposite. For example, the word "diversity" to them means racism, discrimination, but when we hear them use it we think they mean including all people. That is how dangerous these evil elites are. The ones that bother to engage with us use euphemisms and distract us from logical arguments. We end up spending too much time trying to make sense out of nonsense while they move in the background lobbying for dangerous laws to be passed. However, no one is safe from eugenics. It will come for those who push it as well. The future isn't a utopia. It's a dystopia. God help all of us. If you don't believe in there being a God, then this would be a pretty good time to start. Everything occurring in the world right now is prophesied in the Bible. We are indeed the first generation to be witnesses to all of the End of Days events occurring at the same time. The book of Daniel and the book of Revelation describe today's world perfectly. Jesus's Olivet prophecy in Matthew 24 also agrees with these two books. This is why Christians worldwide are strengthening themselves because they know that the time has finally come for Jesus to return to Earth and defeat the Ruler of thus world - Satan himself. The Prunce if the Air doesn't even try to hide himself anymore. He flaunts himself flamboyantly, brazenly now, as he knows his rule is coming to an end and as he tries to take as many souls down with him as he can. Those who believe the Bible are strengthened more by what is occurring because it confirms what is contained within it to be True. You only have to do the slightest of research to understand prophecy and understand the Bible. The problem we have is that Satan has used religion to create confusion, conflict, division and hate. So even though the Bible is God's Word, religious institutions are not. They are corrupted structures and the work of the Devil. He has succeeded in making people hate God, when all they really hate is religion, which is not the same thing. Personally, I avoid religion as I know Satan has destroyed it. But the Bible itself is God's Word and has so many things proving its authenticity. Science, history, archaeology for example have proven it. But you have to learn hermeneutics principles in order to understand the Bible. People are guilty of taking a passage out of context and making it appear to day something it doesn't. For example, like how the Church of England alleges that homosexuality is not a sin and God blesses same-s3× marriages. When you take Scripture out of context you can make it say whatever you want. "I can do all things through Him, who strengthens me." This passage sounds like it says we can do anything as long as we have God on our side. But, that is not accurate nor what the passage means. It has been taken out of context, meaning the passages before and after have been removed and ignored. What it does mean is that regardless of what you go through, even life and death situations, you will be content because you have the Truth of God with you. It describes contentment regardless of circumstances. So, if you learn hermeneutics you won't be fooled by Satan.

[@scooter-wy3qs]

Amen, brother. I have sympathy for people with gender dysphoria, but it needs to go back to being recognized as a mental disorder. When someone transitions into the opposite gender they are not becoming their "authentic self", they are undergoing a medical treatment for a mental disorder.

[@skepticaltomboy]

Thank you!🙏

[@egregs]

so much to say but the cavalier way McCloskey dismisses detransitioners is astonishing. But to be honest from the moment McCloskey called Stock "dear" it was fairly clear.

[@swooningtree]

Took the comment out of my fingers. Well, you beat me to it by 7 months so not really but I feel the same lol

[@FlakoFalco]

Well that was one of the weirdest TRAs I've ever witnessed lol. Towards the end I was almost longing for your standard blue-haired screaming adult baby. Deirdre's points and responses were all a weird combo of non-sequiturs, inconsistent comparisions, out of touch bias, refusal to acknowledge evidence, deflections regarding when the state should intervene, and condescension towards Kathleen.

[@susantempleton5882]

Great summary. You've named all of McCloskey's reasoning flaws, one after another. Good job.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

How like a man.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

@lilyweatherwax3773 How like a man projecting what most men experience arguing with women.

[@ribbonsofnight]

@@susantempleton5882 didn't seem like an exhaustive list to me.

[@douglasfreeman3229]

​@@lilyweatherwaxHRHIs this comment to be taken as your genuine believe? If so it is despicable and infantile.

[@Suzanne291]

MORE of this has to be done. Thanks for promoting reality, Kathleen.

[@ashbrown1212]

How Kathleen Stock contains her exasperation with this guy, I don't know. The sheer idiocy he comes out with - how he has any position of seniority is beyond me

[@SuperBobby1967]

He compares becoming a lawyer with becoming transgender. 😂😂😂😂😂

[@reddragonready]

It becomes even more amazing when you look up the äcademic career of "Deidre" it's baffling when seeing those next to this debate. Maybe Donald didn't transition but was actually murdered and replaced by some trans dude?🤔🤣

[@danjohnxo]

Exactly. It boiled my blood when he dismissed detransitioners by saying it's easy enough to reverse. If that is his attitude towards young people, teen and kids medically altering their bodies and later realising it was falsehood to believe they could become the other sex, then I don't see how anyone takes a word he says seriously on this topic.

[@SuperKripke]

How do you know Kathleen is a woman?

[@reddragonready]

@@SuperKripke She gave birth to children

[@Clem62]

How great the university is up and running. Finally we see what will happen when a trans person agrees to debate against facts and common sense. How can Diedra not know of the latest research Kathleen is prepared to present? He doesn't seem to understand the weight of the issue. Society can't be transing little children.

[@KH-aug]

Or ppl of *any* age without first requiring extensive, competent therapy -- which virtually never happens these days. There's a great detransitioned lesbian KZbinr, Carol, who speaks to this and related issues.

[@Barnabybright]

When Deirdre asks why the state must be involved in trans issues, she's ignoring one thing: an appeal for sex-reassignment surgery and treatment from the state's health provider is exactly that, a request to the state for intervention. Also when she says there are many things that are irreversible and trans is simply one of them. All of her examples are of behaviours no-one would recommend.

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

Depending where you live, the state sure as hell gets involved when parents refuse to affirm their child.

[@SandraEaston-Lawrence]

He. He's a man.

[@reddragonready]

They are also examples of a totally reversible nature

[@swooningtree]

I was waiting for someone to acknowledge this: it's ridiculous to expect to have it both ways. You either have a state or you don't. You have health providers with regulations or you don't.

[@denniskavanagh1649]

Good to see such discussions finally occurring. Kudos to both Stock and McCloskey for doing this. The comparison of vulnerable children making choices they regret like losing their penis to reckless driving or mortgage default is the fault line of the debate. Any common sense approach tells us all what we know in our hearts, such is wrong and ideological malpractice.

[@MrTryfan]

Such a dumb analogy. Essentially saying that because things occur that have lifelong effects, we can therefore not prohibit any specific, actively chosen interventions that have lifelong effects. Nobody's actively choosing to undereducate their kids, or malnourish them - these are just unfortunate realities of people's lives. And if anyone does do that in an active sense (doesn't send the kids to school, starves them), then the state absolutely intervenes to protect the child

[@QueenoftheHuntandtheHerd]

@chris kingsland Ever hear of Chloe Cole? Better Google.

[@KH-aug]

@chris Kingsland Good god, do a little research. Even the trans surgeon Marci Bowers has admitted on camera to performing vaginoplasties on 16-year-olds. He did Jazz Jennings' vaginoplasty when he was 17, also televised. There are a number of under 18's who've had their breasts amputated. What do all these patients have in common? They're all *children* . Wake TF up.

[@lechenaultia5863]

Boston Children's Hospital mentioned mastectomies on girls as young as 12 on its website.

[@scooter-wy3qs]

@chris kingsland Jazz Jennings is the poster child for child transitioning in the US. "She" has a reality TV series that just ended it's 8th season. Jazz got peritoneal vaginoplasty at age 17. This was shown on national television 4 years ago. There are cases of minors getting grs.

[@mattcolins9264]

If anyone is interested in McClocskey - Their part in trying to bring down a sexologist for discussing AGP is explored in Alice Dregers book Galileo's Middle Finger

[@KH-aug]

Thx, will be interested to see that as I've never gotten around to Dreger. This dude's SUCH a case study of an AGP. Not for his affect but his basically pathological disregard for transitioned kids' and young ppl's many losses, he reminds me of Richard/Rachel Levine. It's as if both got part-way through a pomo course, grasped onto the anarchic part about celebrating your own joy in any boundary-breaking way you please, but missed that the lesson was part of a larger course in the *humanities* , which would require you to also give a damn about other ppl's lives.

[@audreya8992]

The sexologist is J. Michael Bailey who wrote "The man who wanted to be queen". Blanchard reports it in his ITW by Quilette "What Is Autogynephilia? An Interview with Dr Ray Blanchard"

[@HellCatt0770]

He made me so F’ing angry. There is NO WAY I’d want to learn anything more about him! I’ve heard enough 🤬

[@EquippedwithStrength]

Did he really say that the Williams sisters are manly because they have big muscles? 🤦‍♀️

[@Tesla_Death_Ray]

Did you just say Serena isn't masculine?

[@EquippedwithStrength]

@@Tesla_Death_Ray No, I asked if he really said the Williams’s are manly because they have big muscles.

[@Tesla_Death_Ray]

@@EquippedwithStrength She is. Doesn't make her a man, obviously. Doesn't mean this trans person has a good point. But come on, Serena is JACKED

[@lissadawes4243]

9:20 do you though? Earlier McCloskey said that there wasn’t anything irreversible about reassignment operations then later acknowledges it but excuses it by saying there are all sorts of irreversibility like brain damage or a lack of early formal schooling. Mccloskey can’t keep a coherent position. 50:25 That was William Buckley . It was the Boston directory not NYC and it was the Harvard faculty not Congress. The actual quote was “I would rather be governed by the first 2,000 people in the Boston telephone directory than by the 2,000 people on the faculty of Harvard University.” 50:35 amazing! What a horrible attitude. This is incredible that anyone would take such a flippant stance on what happens to children. 53:45 for social purposes you can reverse a physical mutilation? What? Can someone explain what he is saying here? I couldn’t be calm like Kathleen. Having said that I do appreciate like others the level of dialogue/debate by both persons. Very much on the high ground. Kathleen Stock wins this debate hands down.

[@Gingerblaze]

Thank you for clarifying the William Buckley quote. Much appreciated!

[@lissadawes4243]

@@Gingerblaze oh you’re welcome.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

It wasn’t a debate, it was a rout. He’s just not bright enough to realize he was handed his arse 🙄

[@LauraKamienski]

Diet habits and racial views are irreversible but genital mutilation is?!! Does this man actually hear himself?!

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

Methinks he loves the sound of his own voice so much, he doesn’t hear a word he says …

[@le77erem]

Doctor Stock was eloquent, precise and polite. McCloskey was awful. Rude, condescending and constantly interrupting. I wish some trans person would actually come and answer questions in a coherent, evidence based way. McCloskey was callous and selfish and so cavalier with the consequences of transition for young people.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

That would presume there’s evidence or coherence to be had. Mostly it’s word-salad mumbo-jumbo, straw-womanning and goalpost-moving. Their ‘spokespeople’ are experts at gaslighting.

[@mahtism]

Once again, the argument for transgenderism doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

[@phoenixjim0527]

Stock is 💯. It is utterly absurd and despicable how real women are being treated. The sexes have stark, beautiful differences for the sake of reproduction. The future will definitely see this time period as madness.

[@advocate1563]

New Salem. This will end when we all stand up and step forward, not before.

[@krisphiles]

I'm so glad a trans person agreed to have a discussion about this and was brave enough to speak how they are thinking. I also commend Kathleen for being so civil in the face of such poor reasoning. This was shocking, actually.

[@annlouise8909]

We do not always get what we want. He wants a lot. He does not see what the problem is. So, are there no limits to an individual 'getting what one wants' ?

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

Not if you listen to Mick :)

[@SilverSixpence888]

Not if you are a man in a dress apparently.

[@carolynbrightfield8911]

I'm a woman. I take less than 15 minutes to buy clothing. I discovered $10 organic MENS cotton T-shirts in the World of the mart. Doesn't make me a man. The nuns who taught me had habits (which certain people like to wear in parades) which they didn't get to buy. Does that mean they were men like those in the parade. I don't think so!

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

Nobody's saying that makes you a man?

[@corinneskitchen]

When I was 4 or 5 I cried in front of everyone at my birthday party when I was opening presents because everyone got me dolls and I didn't want them. I didn't know what to do with dolls and I was upset that no one knew me & what I would like - I just got stereotyped based on my gender. This didn't make me trans! This was a very young girl experiencing misogyny.

[@amandalevesongower5100]

agreed in fact the trans movement is trying to enforce gender stereotypes

[@sometimesnevernot]

I dont think that buying a girl dolls = hatred of girls.

[@oldoaktrees]

Are you trolling?

[@corinneskitchen]

@@oldoaktrees No wtf

[@corinneskitchen]

@@sometimesnevernot It meant they didn't know me and put me into a stereotype. If I was known to enjoy/want dolls, then that would be different.

[@nakitomiplaza1746]

McCloskey has no coherent argument, rambling on and on, repeating sexist, regressive views on womanhood inc. hair length, buying clothes, and liking sports, etc., and is wilfully blind to facts & stats, eg wrt children and sport, in order imo, to justify McCloskey's lifestyle. I found Stock much more persuasive with her references to stats & research. Also repeatedly calling Stock 'dear' was rather grating.

[@hettyelliott4834]

Funny how McCloskey thinks girls may not like their breasts as they are an unwanted appendage but misses the point that when teenagers develop they sometimes want to hide their breasts as they are aware of how men will view them especially if they have been through early childhood sexual abuse.

[@carolynbrightfield8911]

They seem to need being called a woman to justify their choice of clothes and hair length. A very insecure group of people.

[@kelechii7209]

Whilst I agree she was rambling, i think there is a difference between describing social norms related to being a woman on average (hair length, shopping etc) and that most people associate those things with being a woman, and saying that you have to do that if you are a woman. I think McCloskey was just commenting on the social role she chose to partake in as dictated by society as part of transitioning. Not saying that women have to comply to those societal norms

[@ejd5261]

@@kelechii7209 Yes but the issue is that McCloskey asks to be be called she/her and referred to as AND “TREATED AS” a woman bc he conforms to these stereotypes. That’s an inappropriate and frankly offensive ask.

[@yourdailydoseofreality3219]

@@kelechii7209 That thing is a “he”. And you are a loon.

[@radubradu]

After the lovely opening statement from Kathleen you get shocked into reality by that raspy male voice coming from, spoiler alert, a man pretending to be a woman. Why does Kathleen think she can use reason and arguments against belief and delusion is beyond me, but bless her for trying.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

I think she’s probably trying to show good faith, willingness to fair and open debate. The fact that there are no worthy opponents on the pink-and-blue side tells you everything you need to know about the whole gender nonsense.

[@msaveourgirls9068]

McCloskey sounds exactly like my father, who had narcissistic personality disorder. So difficult to sit through listening to him speak as though he is God’s gift to this subject. High praise to Dr Stock for her patience and wisdom!

[@phi4444]

I've only ever had men call me "dear" condescendingly; it's a power play. It's misogyny

[@swooningtree]

@@phi4444 I have had older women call me dear, but that has also felt condescending and part of a social power play.

[@JR-gc5ef]

I've got to appreciate the respectful debate on such an incendiary topic. Though, to Kathleen's point, biology does matter most and is not "debatable". For McCloskey to say that bad diet for children or racist views are 'not reversible but the mutilation, chemical or otherwise, of kids are the same is just fucking nuts.

[@Diamondsparkle788]

Yes

[@philipanthony9596]

Well done Kathleen. As always, you kept your cool and argued with your usual calmess - and you used logic to defend your position. The book is great by the way. Clear headed and philosophically persuasive. I recommend everyone to read it. It’s the only really philosophically sane treatment of this issue available in print right now 😊

[@Gingerblaze]

I really hope DM listens to detransitioners who have undergone penile inversion surgery, or lost the ability to breast feed or give birth or undergone extensive permanent physiological changes from taking exogenous hormones. Medical transition is irreversible. Even only undergoing social transition has serious emotional and psychologically negative impacts on children and vulnerable people who are left without a community or resources available to assist them through detransition.

[@RenegadeContext]

Often young people who feel rejected by society get sucked into this, if they desist at any point they relive their trauma by getting rejected by the activists that claimed to be their family. The way detransitioners are treated tells me everything I need to know about these people. They don't care about children, they don't care about vulnerability, they target autistic and vulnerable children

[@Nico5890]

And for young transmen, FTM and nb people, please be advised: if you don't want to have kids that's perfectly fine and normal. Exogenous testosterone will bring on early dementia, osteoporosis, cardiovascular issues, incontinence, vaginal atrophy (your pelvic floor holds up the rest of your organs, so this isn't just about six. it's about standing, sitting, walking.) Your breasts are part of your endocrine system and do maintain your health, they're not just extra optional bits for breastfeeding be free, be yourself, and do not do medical interventions your body is an ecosystem and clothes are just clothes - a woman who knows

[@estelaluciau.v3450]

"As long as people treat me as they would treat their grandmother". That goes even beyond expecting to be treated as if Deirdre were a woman, that requires a level of respect an affection rightfully reserved to our loved ones.

[@estelaluciau.v3450]

"Big dykes went around inspecting people's genitals". That's an outrageous claim that screams lesbophobia, DEAR. Which I'm thankful for, I like when people show their true colors.

[@Diamondsparkle788]

It's a man. My Grandmother wasn't 6ft .

[@moraymac2922]

@@Diamondsparkle788 😅😅😅

[@Diamondsparkle788]

@@moraymac2922 🤣🤣

[@stephanielux]

I thought the same. That expectation is high even if it was coming from female to female.

[@LauraKamienski]

If there’s no body discomfort, why the need to change it? Same logic as affirming anorexia with liposuction and diet pills.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

Affirming anorexia causes damage. Surgery is only offered after it's determined that other solutions aren't viable. It is a last-resort.

[@SilverSixpence888]

@@Capybarrrraaaa Not according to the tavistock whistleblower. You appear to be woefully ill-informed (actually, wilfully ignorant) .

[@beemacs7282]

Kathleen Stock did well to keep her cool she is better than me. Mr McCloskey was patrionising and failed to provide any evidence to support any of his positions which were often very unclear. Yes the state does need to intervene in the interests in child safeguarding - children have a right to protection from harm.

[@aerondanann8683]

Diedre was definitely patronizing, I thought that really sub-par in a debate. Condescendingly disrespectful and does not deserve the respectful reference to the pronoun 'she,' in return.

[@Gingerblaze]

TRAs consider dis-allowing the medical and surgical transitioning of minors harmful. Some surgeons and financial interests of hospitals also hold this position.

[@Somegirl51]

Thank you, Kathleen. ADULT in the room.

[@samupon_a_star8258]

Adult Human Female #woman 😉

[@Amelias_Edits]

Just to clarify, as an English person, using ‘dear’ in this context and in that tone of voice, is not friendly but is considered very patronising.

[@ScottEMyers]

This conversation is what happens when you put someone with intellectual substance and data, Kathleen, in dialogue with an utter fantasist.

[@RenegadeContext]

It was so hard to listen to the rambling wank from Dierdres side. What the actual fuck was going through that brain

[@douglasfreeman3229]

Kathleen's body language and facial expressions are very telling during this discussion. I would have considered "discussing" the issue with that daft bloke (who's mental problems became very evident when he tried to say "menstruation") quite a chore and fairly debasing.

[@take-time]

Great that this conversation was able to take place and I commend Deidre for participating however he didn't put up a convincing case against Kathleen's thesis. Kathleen has a great depth of knowledge on this subject and was clearly getting visibly frustrated by Deidre's reponses which were often rambling, off-topic and failed to address the realities of the modern trans landscape, which has rapidly evolved over the past decade. Though the talk lacked much intellectual interest I do appreciate the respectuful dialogue.

[@876me7]

He was not respetful. He kept referring to Kathleen as “dear”.!that we meant to be patronizing and condescending. He is exhibiting male aggression and dismissal of women.

[@elisabethm.deboer9597]

R/detrans no longer has 10.000 members, it has 45.000 members by now and growing every day.

[@radubradu]

will probably get shut down soon as reddit is completely captured

[@jovialnobody]

​@@radubradu yeah, amazing how they shut down the Gender Critical subreddit but the "Transagers" one is still up 🤔

[@anonnymous4684]

I'm not sure how accurate that is as any kind of scientific measure, as anyone is able to join that community. Some of its members could even just be cis-gendered people who are interested in reading about the issue (parents, doctors etc). Without a solid verification process in place, anyone researching de-transitioning would have to be extremely cautious about what the number of members to that sub-reddit actually represents.

[@radubradu]

@@anonnymous4684 it doesn't mean there are that many detransitioners, obviously. Once you mutilated your body it's hard to accept what you did to yourself, so you would rather see others destroyed in the same way than acknowledge the truth. But the high number of subscribers means that people are waking up to what this cult actually does: mutilate and sterilize children.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

@@anonnymous4684 Given that trans people make-up less than 1%, and detransitioners make-up less than 1% of those (most of which re-transition or wish to, too), I have to agree.

[@moraymac2922]

I still think it’s worth it to debate with someone like this Prof Stock. Your descriptions of the surgical mutilation of detransitioners left your opponent stuttering. It’s very uncomfortable for these people to hear this stuff - and to compare not having genitals to not having books!!! Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[@insidiousmischka]

Yeah, Deirdre, because liking vanilla ice cream is so comparable to identifying as something you're so obviously and demonstrably NOT. Godddamn.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

The outward hatred is something I can ignore, but it's comments like yours that actually hurt because it shows a normal person who's fallen for the propaganda. Deirdre's comparison to liking ice cream is the exact thing she's talking about. Neither I nor she is claiming to be a biological female, she's an individual who's associating with cultural traits of womanhood because those traits make her most comfortable. Everyone does that. Nobody aims to be a man or a woman, they aim to associate with individual traits that make them comfortable. I don't know why you're trying to analyse her points using your terms instead of her own, but you shouldn't. That's called a 'strawman fallacy'.

[@insidiousmischka]

@@Capybarrrraaaa the same way I use my own brain when I do my thinking I will use my terms when analyzing his points. He is claiming to be a woman, he is not. He wants others to see him and refer to him as a woman, but he is not! I couldn’t give less of a fcuk about his likes, preferences, fetishes, paraphilias… I’m not interested. All I’m interested is the reality: this is a man. Period. And I certainly don’t give a damn my comment hurt you. That’s your problem.

[@SilverSixpence888]

@@Capybarrrraaaa As long as Deirdre isn't trying to use female only spaces, he can wear all the culturally appropriate dresses he likes. The minute he demands his little fantasy be accepted by ANYONE else at all, is the minute he loses my support completely.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

@@SilverSixpence888 Can you define "female only space" for me?

[@vickicaravella4665]

​@@CapybarrrraaaaA space separated by sex. This is important for females because of their unique biology. It includes, toilets, changing rooms, hosp wards, prisons, refuges etc. etc. It is possibly not as important for males.

[@MarthaMansbridge]

The man in a dress addresses Kathleen as ‘Dear’ to shut her down when she insisted on reminding everyone that having genitals chopped off is not replaceable…

[@lewreed1871]

My God that was awful. I gave it a like for Kathleen Stock's saintly patience and restraint. Deirdre McCloskey was incoherent, made the most tenuous, diversionary analogies if they even worked at all, condescended constantly by calling someone who is clearly intellectually superior "dear" all the time, returned incessantly to the issue of the legitimate extent of state power even after Stock said she didn't care if the state was the regulator and that there needed to be "an adult in the room", and showed an almost unbelievable paucity of understanding around the issue of transition in children and young people. This person was an arrogant bore, devoid of insight, and I just hope Kathleen Stock found something else to do to make that trip worthwhile.

[@SilverSixpence888]

"unbelievable paucity of understanding around the issue of transition in children and young people." This is because he is an adult male AGP, and has nothing in common with children's issues...

[@Tina06019]

It IS a GIFT to the Right. Absolutely. This is terrifies me.

[@a.p.w.1087]

Who cares? At this stage, even though I've been a communist for 27 years, I will absolutely vote for a conservative as long as they do not negotiate with terrorists when it comes to transgenderism. In England, this issue is not about politics. If this weren't a left/right issue in the US, they'd never have gotten as out of control as they have.

[@radubradu]

Someone call this man's family to come get their grandpa. He got into grandmas closet again, got on a stage and started talking psychobabble. I am just in shock how society has came to this point. We are having a professor "debate" with a man in a dress about why he's not a woman just because he wears a dress. What is next, doctors who debate with schizophrenics if the voices are real? Shame to the people who let this happen.

[@Diamondsparkle788]

I don't know how Kathleen can be so polite.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

Next is surgically ‘affirming’ a child’s belief that he really is a dinosaur…

[@franciscopalacios4638]

@@Diamondsparkle788 its obvious, if shes impolity they will accuse her of being hateful.

[@dannydreadnought-xk4qx]

​@@lilyweatherwaxHRH I would've got a stegosaurus spine so quick.

[@TravelsTTG]

Damn. You are not helping her point.

[@jeantaylor6318]

Kathleen Stocks deserves a medal for her grace & patience, interacting with this man. It's frightening to think this man is trans but cannot see the deep differences between homosexuality & transgenderism!!!

[@mfpwabc]

There were moments in this discussion where I was astonished at Stock's patience in the face of a blizzard of nonsense from McCloskey. BUT this is one of the only discussions like this I've seen. The tone was civil, it didn't degenerate into name calling and personal attacking, everything was on the table to be discussed and we need more of this if for no other reason than shining the light of reason on this subject reveals how ridiculous it is that it's got to this point.

[@jwhite5396]

I could identify as Cindy Crawford. That doesn’t make me Cindy or a super model. These people simply don’t want to hear the word No.

[@Reet64]

Unfortunately, Deidre is woefully uninformed. Dismissing off hand the existence of detransitioners is clear evidence of this, and this nonsense definition of what a woman is proves the same. Thanks Kathleen Stock for her knowledgeable commentary. Editing to add that nonetheless, I am very glad to see a civil conversation and good on Deidre for agreeing to participate.

[@reddragonready]

I dare say, watching the myriad of condescending "dears" ....Deidre agreed in the convicting of having the superior opinion and in spite of clearly having no actual argument or intelligent responses, still is convinced of that fact. I saw a good possible explanation of this convicting from trans people in a video by one of those people Deidre thinks don't exist and has no empathy for...a mtftm detransitioned 31 year old guy now looking forward to the rest of his life as a eunuch. He thinks it is because such a trans person is psychologically not able to accept reality.

[@mabrahamlee5]

Bravo, Dr Kathleen Stock & thank you ❤

[@benl5946]

McCloskey did her best but lost all arguments to Stock who excels in patience, eloquence and class, always

[@sues.4536]

Stock interrupted too often, but McCloskey’s arguments were sometimes off point and rambling. I’d say philosophy-based Stock outclassed her opponent in the quality, clarity, relevance, and support of her position. Was glad to see them embrace at the end, though - we need more respectful dialogue.

[@elisabethm.deboer9597]

It feels to me like McClosskey took op 80% of speaking time.

[@KH-aug]

Not to be too opinionated here, but McCloskey was pretty much *always* off topic, rambling, and intentionally dissembling as well, which gave Stock every right to make every (brief, polite) interjection that she did. More would have been welcome -- bc he talked so much and said so little. ...Also, debaters ordinarily shake hands at the end, but he initiated the hug, which given his stances (can't possibly call them arguments) and his ignorant condescension throughout, amounted to just more sexist bullshit on his part. A dick move. I was sorry her time was wasted so badly, but at least it showed the intellectual and emotional poverty of the pro-trans position.

[@KH-aug]

Having just re-watched parts of this, I'd have to say DM interrupted KS more often and decidedly more disruptively than she did him. He talked over the ends of several of her sentences so that we really couldn't hear her full point. Whereas her interjections were quietly and carefully made, to let him know she was quite prepared to pursue a debate point further (to its logical conclusion) were he interested. Funnily enough, he never was.

[@spirit796]

I don't know how Professor Stock was able to keep as professionally respectfully kind or quiet. I struggled to hear an on point argument from her opponent. She did everything she could to keep the debate on point. DM didn't want her to. It wasn't a far off from the activists who go to women's talks simply to disrupt them. Protesting using fog horns or screaming nonsense purely to silence or divert debating or sharing solid truth and evidence. Their arguments don't make sense either.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

@@KH-aug Reminds me of US politicians ‘reclaiming their time’ when an opponent tries to run out the clock with bs/rambling.

[@mumtrader]

Good grief, the contrast between the intellectual understanding of these matters could not be more stark. DM is a self absorbed waffler demanding control over women’s rights. It’s extraordinary.

[@karenkennedy2592]

He's very much a man, dominating the conversation, patronising, ill informed & all about himself. When he calls Kathleen 'dear' I want to scream

[@mairesmith4709]

Deirdre, you certainly haven't lost the ability to patronise, 'dear'.

[@moraymac2922]

It’s a male superiority cult. Misogyny in a dress.

[@douglasfreeman3229]

This isn't a man thing. I've been called "dear" by women on countless occasions over the decades (especially when I was in my 20s). Earlier today my gf was called "dear" by an old lady. Definitely not restricted to males.

[@hollylawford-smith]

dierdre answering every question first, giving a much lengthier opening statement, interjecting all the time, pretending authority in kathleen's discipline, and condescendingly calling her "dear" whenever she says something he doesn't like... i mean i'm glad to see a debate, but, yuck. that was pretty uncomfortable.

[@carmenspeer7796]

Extremely male behavior.

[@ribbonsofnight]

@@carmenspeer7796 Bit offensive to those of us who don't do any of that. I'm not even sure it's more common in men. Honestly if he's trying to imitate hyacinth bucket he's not a million miles off.

[@reddragonready]

But according to wikipedia Deidre IS a professor in philosophy..hard as that is to believe from Deidre's extremely ridiculous argumentsand analogies here. A visiting professor to a Dutch university even...if I hadn't already seen some huge fools from our universities I might have been newly ashamed to admit being Dutch at this point but alas...already had to accept the shame some time ago😂

[@MrMurph73]

Some utterly bizarre argument from Deidre McCloskey. My favourite was "I take 15 mins to buy clothes"

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

And Stock tacitly pointed out that's because he's a man 😏

[@reddragonready]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 No she didn't! She pointed out so did she

[@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367]

"there are many identities possible. One is not born a lawyer". Yeah, that's where I tuned out. If this poor person actually suggesting that there is a valid comparison between a chosen profession and a biologically determined sex? Oh FFS. Bye Dierdre.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

But she's not saying that. I don't understand how so many people in this comment section are failing to understand that Dierdre isn't using TERF terminology to give her opinion. When she talks about gender being compared to a profession, that's LITERALLY what she means. If you think it's stupid to compare a profession to sex, which it is, why aren't you questioning if maybe you've misunderstood somewhere? Why default to blaming Deirdre instead of taking some self-responsibility?

[@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367]

@@Capybarrrraaaa I only use the term "TERF" in irony, because it is a deliberate misnomer and a pejorative. Neither do I believe there is such a thing as "TERF terminology. I do not understand your comment. So what if "that's literally what "she" means"? I object to this weak argument whether it is meant literally or figuratively. It is literally wrong.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

@@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367 I use it because it's a pejorative, honestly. I also like Feminism-Appropriating Radical Transphobe. See, now that's your issue here; you're failing to parse simple arguments and can't even identity one when you see it. Her comparing of gender to profession/calling/etc. *isn't* the argument; it's a disambiguation of meaning. It's explaining how she's using the term so that you, a separate person that might not be on the same wavelength, can interact with her argument. The comparison doesn't prove anything. It's not meant to. It gives context so you can interface with the conversation. Saying you "object" to it is refusing that she's being honest about what she thinks, which is just strange and not, itself, an argument either. Just an accusation. I've got all the time in the world for however long you'd like to talk, but please, have some self-awareness.

[@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367]

@@Capybarrrraaaa slinging invective is not argumentation; it's bullying and it's what you do when don't have an actual argument. As for my inability to parse a "simple argument", maybe the problem is that the "argument" is too "simple", i.e., unconvincing. If McCloskey wants those of us to "interface" with her convo, she needs to find a better way. You can't get a degree in trans; you CAN get a degree in a profession, like law. The comparison is not a useful "interface" or a "disambiguation"; it's a gigantic category error.

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

@@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367 1. Yes, it is bullying. That's my intention. When a professional philosopher that's dedicated so much of their life to, not just philosophy, but to this specific problem, and then makes very remedial errors, AND THEN refuses to rehabilitate their position, I no longer believe that this person's goal is constructive or honest. We can talk about what we should do about people who disagree with the core concepts of civil-society, if you'd like. Like I said, you have all my time

[@LauraKamienski]

DEAR!?! Twice! Naive!?! This man pretending to be a woman is very good at mansplaining.

[@Michelle-vv9lk]

God this is painful to watch. Poor Kathleen having to debate with him 🙄 Also he’s definitely AGP

[@shelleyscloud3651]

Reminds me of Willouby trying to ingratiate themselves in as one of the reasonable ones but when you hear them you realise it’s all a feint and once they realise you can see through their subterfuge out will come the narc rage.

[@davidloughlin2238]

It was really nice to see a debate, with people behaving reasonably and allowing each other to speak.

[@Dianasaurus2403]

I new that we were heading towards transwomen being the higher of the hierarchy in the female sex class This debate proves it They are wearing a dress and have long hair but he still conducts very much like a man Also, he lacks knowledge and his information is dangerous And all the ‘dears’ is very condescending Your patience is exemplary Dr Stock

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

Excuse me... The term "trans women" is now outdated. Many are now using the term "Women+". The old kind of women, to quote Ricky Gervais "you know, the ones with wombs" are obsolete. Sorry if this causes inconvenience. ^^ This was irony by the way.

[@davidloughlin2238]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 Love it, yes for sure you are getting something extra thrown in😀

[@Capybarrrraaaa]

@@Dianasaurus2403 "They are wearing a dress and have long hair but he still conducts very much like a man" So? Nobody aims to be one gender or another, just to be themselves. Also, what does "transwomen being the higher of the hierarchy" even fucking mean?

[@reddragonready]

@@goodlookinouthomie1757 Oh how time flies..just 3 months later and women are now "non men". Clearly as opposed to the new "women" who ARE men

[@judgedottaylor7565]

I'm a 40 year old woman and still every older man I know calls me "dear" when I disagree with him. If McCloskey genuinely wants to be viewed as a woman, there are a lot of nuances they need to relearn first of all. *Not intending to offend, just saying 🤷‍♀️

[@douglasfreeman3229]

I'm a male in my 50s and have, on many occasions over the decades, been referred to as "dear" or "love" by women, so "Dierdre" has NOT got this wrong. Earlier today my gf was referred to as "dear" by a woman. Where I live it is quite common for women to use the term.

[@judgedottaylor7565]

@@douglasfreeman3229 hence the nuance. The implications are different, dear 😅

[@katespellxx9529]

Thank you so much Kathleen for creating the space for Deirdre to speak. I hope that when people, and women especially, hear what trans identifying males say, they will peak to the max and never be able to unsee what we see and feel so clearly. Postively disrespectful attitudes towards women and girls, in terms of our language, and the care and consideration given towards our lived experiences. Warrior Woman. #LetWomenSpeak #LetTransSpeak #PeakTheNations Women should never be made to accommodate these men. It's time for men to embrace their non conforming brothers. And if Deirdre doesn't think the state need be involved, ever in our lives, then they do not understand what women have been fighting so hard against. We have laws to protect and hopefully ensure the flourishing of those who are vulnerable to greedy fuckers and opportunists. Women are vulnerable on account of our sex. This was a hard watch, and I've had to take breaks due to my rage at the insensitivity and care of women and girls. I hope lots of people make the effort to listen to what is being said here. Cheers The condescending use of the word 'dear'. Pfft mate #Solidarity from Australia.

[@katespellxx9529]

oh farrrrkme, I wrote that comment before D started up on race, intersex and lesbians. Has another break.... Deirdre doesn't even try to pretend to care about the feelings of others in their attempt to justify their own desires. Urgh It's like being mansplained at to the enth. I feel for their wife. geeezz

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

@@katespellxx9529 Another comment said the wife left ‘im, so good on ‘er. BTW, will you be attending any of Kellie-Jay Keen’s Australia events?

[@katespellxx9529]

@@lilyweatherwaxHRH Oh I'm pleased to hear that, cheers. Yes I will be going along to an event here in Australia. They've been terrific so far. About to catch up on today's one from Perth, W.A.

[@misosouperman]

❤

[@olgacanterbury7341]

Kathleen makes so much sense! Sad that those self-centred activists do not want to have a proper debate. Screaming, abuse and cancelling is all they do

[@dorisgray2078]

It's amazing he thinks he passes.

[@fan7ail]

Leaving all its terrible arguments aside, jesus christ imagine being old, castrated and sounding like that. More of them should follow its path.

[@fedev80]

"maybe in the future you could change your dna"..... is this man for real? A college professor even?

[@SuperLchilds]

McCloskey is male through and through in his presentation, male socialization, attitude of entitlement. He interrupts Kathleen with his condescending attitude "dear"

[@mrozek683]

There is no such thing as an essence of male presentation/socialization

[@moraymac2922]

Yep. Patronising condescending MAN-splaining. It’s all there.

[@reddragonready]

@@mrozek683 Yes there is..and the behavior of Deidre is just that...in spite of the aesthetic choices

[@insidiousmischka]

He 'prefers' to be called a woman... how can he lack the awareness of how goddamn offensive that is? You are a man, Deirdre, you are a man claiming to be a woman. You are not. You need to be aware you have a mental problem that you're trying to force on the world... that is unfair to the world. I have PTSD - it's my problem - I'm not forcing the world to just deal with my issues, I go to therapy and take medicine to manage my symptoms. FFS, this is enraging me.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

I prefer to be called ‘your highness’ or ‘your majesty.’ Funny how that hasn’t earned me a kingdom, yet 🤔

[@douglasfreeman3229]

I prefer to be called "big, handsome sexy beast". Anyone who acquiesces to my request would not be sane. Seriously, though, sorry about your PTSD. I hope things are improving for you 5 months after your comment.

[@KatrinaGressett]

11:56 "Now look, I'm not a woman". Yes, he hit the nail on the head right there. Gender starts with sex and that can not be discounted. The precursor to being a woman is being female, with primary and secondary female characteristics. Yes, there are intersex people out there, and they should get to choose but only them. Someone who was born male, developed male sex characteristics, and continues to have male reproductive organs, they should not be allowed to call themselves woman because they are not a woman. Being a woman is not some costume, taken on and off at one's convenience. Women, worldwide, are an oppressed class of people who are oppressed by men. Men who want to be trans women do not get to decide who and what women are no matter how much they appropriate women's stereotypes. To insist on stealing womanhood, and their spaces, away from natal women is just a continuation of millennia of oppression.

[@neildunford241]

McCloskey seems to not recognise, that for many youngsters - they're in a highly stressful/traumatic space, when they're told that Trans'ing will resolve that. People in those types of spaces, may have their decision making/comprehension abilities severely diminished/affected by that. So we do need some, "adults in the room".

[@kunsagigyula8091]

"I want to be treated as a woman" "I want a free society where people are not treated as categories" 🤔

[@raspberryberet4544]

at least one person is coherent.

[@ribbonsofnight]

And at most one.

[@msjaneleaper]

Stock won. Mention at the beginning of a BBC debate. Did this take place?

[@samuelbelkin]

'The most basic question is not what is best, but who shall decide what is best.' Thomas Sowell

[@jenniferjohanna7911]

Deirdre condescendingly calling Kathleen "dear" wow

[@ribbonsofnight]

Likes the sound of the first part of his name

[@hggfhh4449]

Love that term "trans identifying child" I will use that

[@Tina06019]

The crack about how long it takes to shop for clothes was obnoxious.

[@lilyweatherwaxHRH]

The older they get, the more the misogyny leaks out.

[@reddragonready]

@@lilyweatherwaxHRH Not even only misogyny..plenty of straight males care about looking good and spent time and money on their clothes and appearance.