Ghosts of CTA Bus Rides Past

[@piesciuk]

Artistmac, great video!! Here's some updates. All the buses in your video except for the RTS are now stored inside, out of the weather. You can see what living outside does to their condition! Chicago Marmon trolley bus 9631 just returned from the shop where it received a beautiful exterior restoration. Milwaukee Marmon 441 is leaving for the same shop for the same treatment on Thursday. GM motor coach 605 is scheduled to be the next one to go into the shop after the 441 - hopefully sometime in 2023 (if the shop can complete 441 before then). We have been raising money to build a third building for which construction should start sometime within the next year or two (county permitting is our next challenge). Once built and we gain occupancy from the county, all the motor buses and trolley buses will be protected inside! As someone else commented, 8715 is a propane and not a Lake Street bus. The CTA has a Lake Street bus (3706) in their historic collection (along with 301 and 8499). The previous owner of 8715 decided to scrap the bus and started that process. Thankfully the scrapping didn't get too far when we acquired and saved it. There is some work to do in order to get it looking a bit more presentable, which we have on our agenda. The two things that are critical in these endeavors are manpower and money. Both always seem to be in short supply at an all volunteer organization like IRM, but as with the 9631 restoration, the results are well worth the investment. We have "Bus Day" at the Museum the last Saturday of September or the first Saturday in October (depending on how the Museum's other events fall in the calendar). If you haven't already visited on those days, you're missing a good time. We run as much of our equipment as possible, usually a different trolley bus every hour and motor buses throughout the day on no specific schedule. If you come out on other days, please seek out one of us who works in the bus departments out and we will be happy to give you a tour of the barns - maybe you could do another video featuring all of our equipment?? Thanks again!!!

[@johnlybg]

Great video! Love your history and commentary. Thanks for putting this together and sharing. As an avid bus aficionado this has been so interesting to watch!

[@artistmac]

You're welcome. I'm glad the IRM has committed to saving these vital pieces of Chicago tranportation history.

[@johnperry4572]

14:15 The narrower Fixable buses had smaller side windows at the rear end of the buses on both sides

[@artistmac]

Thanks! It would be interesting to know if the CTA saved at least one of the narrower ones.

[@bobzwol]

Thank you so much for putting this great video together! I grew up on the NW side of Chicago in the 60's & 70's. Brings back a flood of memories. Excellent video, sir!!!

[@reginaldredd617]

I can remember when the CTA purchase the first 1000 series back in the 80's from flyer now fast forward to 2006, they purchase 1000 series again from flyer it all comes full circle.

[@RTD8481]

My dad was a CTA driver in the 70s. I spent my childhood riding his bus out of North ave garage. I spent plenty of time riding on the Flxible new looks. GM old looks. 6000 series cars. I’ve been there myself so I know what I’m talking about.

[@jeromewysocki8809]

Jeri Caroline M Just curious, but did your dad drive any of the old electric trolley busses? The North Ave / Cicero Ave. garage was a major depot for these electric busses, until their retirements in 1973. I loved riding on those busses. They were able to accelerate FAST.

[@RTD8481]

@@jeromewysocki8809 Yes, He started CTA in Sept 1972 He was able to drive the TCs for six months until they were retired in Mar of 73

[@waynewright2886]

I Watched Your Video, it was Fairly Good! Anyway... Some Corrections & Add On's! With the GM RTS With the Slanted Back, GM Built the Slanted Back From its Beginning 40 Years Ago in 1977 to 1980, Long Beach Transit Here in California 20 Miles South of L.A. was the Very 1st Transit System in the U.S. to Receive the GM RTS in 77 #4701 to 4712, & the Early RTS's Built at That Time had the Slanted Back. But Because of the Non Open Windows the A/C Would Fail, & Transit Systems Had Problems With the Early RTS's Built From 77 to 80 that Operated The Early RTS's. So Because of Complaints GM Modified the Slanted Backs with Straight Backs, & Offered them on Newer RTS Buses in 1980, & the Older Ones Were Given a Straight Back Kit to Modify & Improve the A/C on the RTS Busses, Here in Southern California, OCTD (Now OCTA), Montebello, Gardena (Now G Trans), as well as Long Beach Transit Had the Slanted Back Busses Till They Were Retrofitted in the Early 80's with Straight Backs. The Old Southern California Rapid Transit District (RTD) Here in L.A. Ordered 940 RTS's in 1980 & Were Delivered in the 80-81 Fiscal Year, the Largest Single Purchase of Transit Busses at the Time! As For CTA's Fishbowl #9799 I was told it was the Very Last GM Fishbowl Delivered to CTA as Part of a 100 or 200 Bus Order in 1976. I Rode the 9700's on Cottage Grove in the Summer of 77 & It's Hard Ass Seats & Cool A/C, but not 9799, CTA Didn't Want to Spend Money to Improve the A/C on the GM Fishbowls or Replace the Compressors so CTA Installed Sliding Windows on Its Fishbowls, After that the Policy was from CTA Staff & the Board was that in the Future New Busses would not Have A/C or Wheelchair Lifts, That Set Off CTA Riders who had to Endure Sweltering Summers with No A/C & Wheelchair Riders With No Lifts, the New Flyers Delivered in the 80's Were the 1st Example of CTA's Strip Down Busses, Then in 85 Came the M.A.N. (Bread Box) Busses, Same Thing, But the M.A.N.'s Came with Electronic Headings For the 1st Time on CTA Busses, Around 90 or 91 Nearly 700 RTS's Were Delivered to CTA, With Wheelchair Lifts, but No A/C which were Installed After the 1st of the Century, The Nearly 500 Flixibles were Delivered in 91 or 92, Both Had A/C & Wheelchair Lifts for the 1st Time, & in 95 or 96 CTA Recieved the Their Last Order Of Flixibles & the Drivers for the 1st Time Had Air Seats, which was a Good Thing For the Bus Operators. CTA Has Made Progress in the Last 20 Years with Its Busses With Features!

[@kjchicago1]

I see old Flxible New-Look Diesel #3177(built in 1965)and Flxible New-Look Propane #8715 are still around

[@BossSpringsteen69]

I remember when the CTA GMC's would struggle with the AC. Every blue moon you would get a bus that had cold air. Then came the sliding window transition. If memory serves me it became a hodge podge of transition from glass windows to sliders.

[@artistmac]

You're absolutely right. The CTA was contacting other transit agencies, scavenging as many two-piece windows as they could from older "New Look" GM buses that were being scrapped.

[@exoressdelivers70]

I wonder why they didn't just use the Chicago Motor Coach route numbers as is without adding a 1. It's not like the CMC was still running buses on that route and people might get confused.

[@mrAhollandjr]

@artismac, that JTS bus is the first generation RTS built by GM. They were successful. It was the Grumman Flxble buses that had the cracked frames, and while the initial batches were failures, Flxble somewhat recovered and continued to build them as Flxble Metros. As for the RztS, when GM stopped building buses in the US, they sold the RTS to TMC, who continued to build them. CTA bought the TMC RTS buses in 1991. Then NovaBus acquired the RTS model and built them until the Low Floor models started taking off. Forcing Nova to "retire" the RTS. Then some company called Millennium Transit purchased the RTS from Nova and attempted to redesign the RTS into a low floor bus. Needless to say that was a massive fail.

[@dejohn913]

The Bus You're Talking About Regarding The Cracked Frames Are The Grumman 870 Buses When They First Came Out. The GMC RTS Buses Were One Of The Best Bus Built In It's Day. Believe Me.

[@cruzechevy3485]

Rts buses had to be recalled too

[@jeromewysocki8809]

dejohn913 , the story about the "cracked frames" was partly the fault of the federal government. Back in the days of the "energy crisis" (1973 to a few years later) the government gave bonuses to bus manufacturers, based on how well they could improve fuel mileage. The companies found that they could get the best mileage with available technologies then, by reducing body weights on the busses. Problem was that this severely reduced the structural integrity of the busses, and they developed cracks in the frames because of normal Chicago street driving (pot holes). I don't know who paid the repair bills (warrantee issues?), but they had to give up on the idea of reducing body weight as a means of improving fuel efficiencies.

[@dejohn913]

@@jeromewysocki8809 You're Absolutely Right. Those (Grumman's) Weren't Built For Tough Streets Like Chicago Let Alone New York.

[@dieselgypsy1100]

There was a good reason why the GM RTS buses weren't allowed into Canada. In Canada we continued building the New Look transit buses for many years while the US struggled with the RTSs.

[@kjchicago1]

Yes, those were the days in CTA Chicago Transit Authority Bus History-Remember The Flxible Twin Coach Propane Buses and Marmon-Herrington Trolley Buses The CTA used to have?

[@artistmac]

Ah, yes! Rode both of them, and I remember the temporary trolley wires between LaSalle and Wentworth on 47th when they were building the Dan Ryan Expressway. And the Mack buses, all of them from back when the color scheme was yellow above and green below.

[@jeromewysocki8809]

artistmac , a good story on the Twin Coach propane buses. They were first ordered in 1946. I don't know how many the CTA had, but these buses seemed to be just about everywhere in the city, and I've seen a number them still in routine service as late as 1978. That's quite a longevity, as many were in daily use since the 1950s. A bus mechanic told me that propane fuel is apparently a lot less aggressive on the bus engines, such that they could get a half million miles before an engine rebuild was necessary! No wonder the CTA kept these buses running as long as they did. I don't know if GMC still makes propane buses. They just last too long! (It seems that your typical diesel fueled buses are lucky to survive 10 years on Chicago streets.)

[@jeromewysocki8809]

artistmac , I remember them, too, and thought how unusual for the south side, because electric trolley buses ran mostly on the north side. These were on Central, Cicero, Pulaski (to 31st) and Kedzie (to 63 rd place). Also they also ran on Elston, Bryn Mawr, Lawrence, Montrose, Irving Park, Belmont, Fullerton, Grand, and Roosevelt. I vaguely remember them on parts of 51st street and that little bit on 47th street.

[@WindyCityExpeditionist]

Dang, these buses are old. Glad they are preserved and pace had a original livery bus on the Skokie route.

[@kylechellino2579]

The CTA bus has a nice ride!

[@artistmac]

Yes they do! I had the chance to ride a Flxible and a GM during CTA's 75th Anniversary celebration, and they rode just like I remember them from the '60's and '70's.

[@ronaldstubbs9450]

I drove #9799 out of North Park Garage., in the early 1990's.

[@darinwilkerson5351]

CLASSIC WMATA METROBUSES FROM DC NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT BACK.

[@artistmac]

They would have to make them ADA compliant with wheelchair lifts, but Kenosha did it with 40's era PCC streetcars (the lift is at the back), so it wouldn't be impossible.

[@RTD8481]

"How long are you on a bus???" Yeah, Imagine being the driver stuck driving a bus with non working a/c!!! If you were a driver you wouldn't be saying that! Ive driven buses without working a/c It wasant a pleasant experience having to drive it for 5 hours!!! Work as a driver without a/c! Lets see if you still say that then!

[@artistmac]

You must be very young. Too young to remember when neither buses (old Flexible, Old GM, Mack, Brill or Marmon Herrington trolleys, nor St. Louis Car Company el cars (I'm old enough to have ridden all of them, and did) had no air conditioning. Cool air was provided by opening a window -- quite a noise experience when the train went down into the subway. And no one complained -- not the bus drivers, not the train operators, not the passengers -- because a bead of sweat appeared on our brows. Probably because neither our homes, offices nor cars were air conditioned either, and we dealt. And although there was a lengthy CTA strike in 1979, lack of air conditioning was not a hot button issue. I hope you're never in the situation of having air conditioning removed from your hot weather life, Jeri Caroline M -- obviously, you wouldn't last five minutes.

[@TheChicagoL]

"artistmac", I remember the same experiences, riding both the "L" and the buses WITHOUT A/C during the late 50s and early 60s. To be truthful, while Chicago did experience a few unusually warm or hot days during the late spring and summer months, by and large, the average temps year round didn't make A/C a necessity. But with the advent of air conditioned "L" cars, starting with the Pullman 2000 series in 1964 and the the 1000 series GMC new-look "fishbowls" in 1972, I think people just got increasingly spoiled.

[@jeromewysocki8809]

artistmac , thanks for the memories! You are spot on regarding air conditioning. However, one of the biggest problems with the air conditioned busses compared to the older, non- air conditioned ones, was that when the air conditioning failed, you could not open the windows, as I recall. I never missed not having air conditioning on the older busses, because with the windows open, there was always plenty of air circulation. I grew up in a house that never had air conditioning. We somehow managed to live and still function. It went with the territory of growing up in south side Chicago in the 1950s. Most younger people wonder what planet that was, when I describe how we poor folks like me lived then.

[@mrAhollandjr]

More than likely the JTS was a GMzc. It was the Grunman Flxbles, not the RTS, had the cracked frames.

[@artistmac]

You're right, it was Grumman-Flxible. And the reporter in this video was scary in her prediction that partly as a result of this, American transit agencies would begin buying from foreign bus companies -- that's exactly what they did. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2POepmYmp5jh8k

[@levoisj]

i miss those higher up buses, now today's buses have to accommodate these passengers with disabilities. regardless i'm fine with that and i miss the buses that were running on chicago streets at least when i came along almost 30 years ago. hell i remember when CTA had conductors.

[@artistmac]

Now I'm really feeling old. When I was young, ACF/Brill, Mack, and old-look GM and Flxible buses and Marmon-Herrington trolley buses were still a common sight on Chicago streets. So were Walgreen's lunch counters and dressing up to go downtown to the Loop, but that's another story. ;)

[@jeromewysocki8809]

artistmac , and don't forget the old streetcars, the red Pullmans, the "Green Hornets" and the "Blue Geese" models. We went everywhere in Chicago on these, and all of the old style CTA busses back in the 1950s. Those were the days!

[@exoressdelivers70]

Yeah...now when you sit in a bus you feel like you're in a pot because you sit so low. The windows are higher up than you are.

[@nelsondzmiller4637]

The second bus behind you, that's how far I go back, they called them fishbowl for some reason, but yeah I remember the dark green, lime green scheme before they switched to red white and blue

[@artistmac]

People started calling them "Fishbowl" because of that multipiece bulging windshield.

[@levoisj]

Also allow me to add that on some schedules at train stations during the past decade or so, they used a variation of this logo with the banner that said Chicago Transit Authority as opposed to Metropolitan Transit.

[@TestTubeBabySpy]

Ive been on the 53 Pulaski bus from Lawrence Ave. down to Cermak for well over an hour, so bus rides can be pretty horrible.

[@artistmac]

Not much better driving, especially with people treating streets like expressways these days.

[@q21a27]

That Flxible New Look is not one of the "Lake Street" buses. IIRC the Lake Street buses were numbered 3700 series.

[@GMC6523]

is that bus nato green color

[@waynewright2886]

Again Corrections... 1st it Was Flixible who was then Owned By Then Aerospace Giant Grumman Built the 870 Model ADB (Advance Design Bus) From Late 78 I Think? To 83 When it was Sold to another Group, the Flixibles Had its Issues, it was These Busses that had the Cracked Frames. NYCMTA had the Largest Fleet of Flixibles Delivered to that Agency in 1980, Just over 800 Busses, & it's Problems Occurred with Their Busses & was Grounded in December of 1980, & Flixible Corrected the Problem, & Still Afterwards Had Problems, NYCMTA Scrapped the Entire Fleet By 84 & Replaced Them With the GM RTS's. Santa Monica's BBB Bought a Total of 62 Between 1979 & 1981 (4701-4762), & at Least One Frame Collapsed on One of Its Flixible Busses in 80 While in Service, RTD (Now Metro Here in L.A.) Recieved 230 Grumman Flixibles in the Spring & Summer of 1980, & Like N.Y. They All Were Grounded Right After N.Y. Grounded It's Flixibles in December 1980, By Then RTD Started Putting out the 1st of the 940 GM RTS Busses That were Being Delivered, So You Didn't Have a Bus Shortage on the Streets of L.A. & Again RTD's 230 Flixibles Were Grounded Again by 83 Over Another Defect & Fixed by the 84 Olympics. & Grumman Sold Flixible To a Group in 1983, & Continued Building Busses Till 95 When it went Bankrupt & it's Assets Sold to NABI which New Flyer Bought Around 2014.

[@artistmac]

Thanks for the info. It's a shame we've gotten to the point where a Canadian company (New Flyer) has 45% of the transit bus sales in the U.S., and another Canadian company (Novabus) has most of the rest.

[@mic1240]

The green limousine!

[@artistmac]

We carless high school kids kept the CTA in business!

[@mrAhollandjr]

GMC continued to build the fishbowls in Canada well into the late 1980s.

[@artistmac]

I wish they could have figured out a way to make these ADA compliant. The up-high seating front to back was the best part of these buses!

[@ronaldstubbs9450]

Sorry buses need air conditioning.

[@artistmac]

In Chicago, what buses need is a reliable heating system. Same with cars. A/C is a luxury, when it's easy enough to open a window. And I'm glad I don't have to work anymore in offices where the A/C was kept at chest freezer temperatures in the summer.

[@ronaldstubbs9450]

@@artistmac I worked for the CTA. Buses need to haet and air. I've driven buses without air, it's not bearable. And the CTA received so many complaints about the lack of air conditioned buses.

[@kjchicago1]

Lake Street never used CTA Propane Buses

[@darinwilkerson5351]

THESE OLD TRANSIT BUSES NEED TO BE TRUCKLOAD TO BLADENSBURG DIVISION IN WASHINGTON DC SO THE MECHANICS WILL FIX THESE BUSES BACK UP AND TURNED BACK TO DC TRANSIT/METROBUS AND PUT NEW DC TRANSIT SEATS ON THEM AND A MALFUNCTIONING NEW SMARTRIP FAREBOX ON THESE OLD BUSES THEY WILL BE READY TO BE BACK ON THE REGULAR WMATA METROBUS ROUTES.

[@waynewright2886]

Several More Forgotten Comments... Only One American Built Bus Manufacture & that's GiIlig Corporation Based in Pleasantlon, Calif, East of Oakland in the Bay Area, CTA Never Did Business With Them Nor Pace, But Since the 80's Gillig has Built Busses for Transit Systems Around the Country, Except the Bigger Transit Systems Like CTA, L.A., & NYCMTA, People Considered it a California Bus, Cause it Was Built in California, & Still is! As For the A/C Issue In the 70's The U.M.T.A People (F.T.A) Asked Bus Manufacturers Which at the Time Was Just GM & Flixible Required the Two Agency's to Install Non Open Windows on its Busses, Along With it's Sliding Open Windows, Cause Riders Wanted A/C Busses, & Couldn't Deal Stuffiness on the Busses, CTA Had the Non Open Windows on All of it GM Busses Delivered Between 72 or 73 to 76 & They Were on the M.A.N. ARTICULATEDS Delivered to CTA in 78 & the Early 80's, & the Advance Design Busses (ADV) the GM RTS, & Flixible 870's, the New Generation Busses Had Sealed Windows At 1st, but Some Transit Systems Didn't Want to Install A/C on its Busses Cause of the Cost, So They Requested Slide Open Windows Mainly on the ADV Flixibles. Cause Of A/C Problems Mainly in Hotter & Humid Areas of the Country, Sliding Windows Became Standard Again on Transit Busses, as Well as Louver Windows that Open from the Top on Busses! When GM Brought out the RTS in 77, They Continued the Building the Fish Bowls in Canada Cause the Canadian Government & Cities in Canada Didn't Care & Like the New Version RTS, that's why the Fishbowl was Still Built in Canada Till 1986, Some American Transit Systems in the States Bought the Canadian Made GM Fishbowls Like Denver's RTD, & Here in Santa Monica, California, Santa Monica's BBB (Big Blue Bus) Bought 80 Fishbowls From 1982 to the Spring of 86, the Last Order BBB Recieved From GM of Canada, 5153 to 5180 were the Very Last GM Fishbowls that GM Built, Those Very Last 27 Fishbowls Period!, 5180 was Kept till 2012 & Sent to its Retirement Home in Hershey, PA at the Bus Museum, Sitting Next to Long Beach Transit's 4701, the Very 1st Built & Delivered RTS in 77 to Long Beach Transit which was Also Sent to Hershey, Pa. Also Note Long Beach Transit Was Delivered the 10,000 Built RTS, #4477 in 1985 & was Kept in Operation till the End of the Century! Word I Heard 4477 was Scrapped Not Retained!

[@samyrnicolas2531]

👍

[@tonyt5861]

What I'd love to see them do take those old buses and put them back in service Madison Metro would love to have them and service if I if you would give them to us for free a lot and will use them for school around only because right now our new buses are used for school route in the city buses that they have a Madison Wisconsin or have time to wheelchair don't work on them I'm talking about wheelchair straps that are supposed to be easy to be used but the staff will tell you that no they're not easy to use order to phone apart well now you know

[@artistmac]

That would be an excellent idea! They should be able to retrofit old GM and Flxible buses with wheelchair lifts -- they did with the PCC streetcars that are running in Kenosha right now.

[@cruzechevy3485]

I said the samething, USA sucks in building stronger buses. The nova, New flyer and orions will always be Canadian buses, not USA buses. Even though orion is gone.

[@artistmac]

Just amazing how GM, Flxible, Brill and Mack, all of whom built excellent buses before 1970, and Marmon-Herrington, who built trolley coaches, all couldn't keep up that momentum.

[@cruzechevy3485]

@@artistmac So true my friend, I subbed to you.☺👍👍✌✌✌

[@jeromewysocki8809]

artistmac , you are right. All American construction for these brands. The Marmon-Herrington electric buses ran from 1951 until their retirements in 1973, when the CTA discontinued all electric trolley bus service. That decision was based on the economics at that moment. It cost the CTA a penny more a mile to run the trolleys, compared to the propane buses. So they scrapped the system, and then came the "oil embargo" later that same year (1973). I'm sure that changed all of their calculations, as the price of petroleum fuels at least tripled in price, almost overnight. Who knows, maybe the trolleys would have been cheaper, since, I believe, the CTA generated their own electricity. (Maybe they used natural gas, which was far cheaper than petroleum? If so, they probably kicked themselves in the pants for that decision.)