Failing a Student At a Belt Test | ART OF ONE DOJO

So you're failing a student for a belt test? What criteria do you use to pass them, and what are you looking for on a test? So many video talk about martial arts and belt tests from the student's point of view, yet many times the student doesn't get to hear the instructor's side of it. Today we're going to talk about what Martial Arts instructors look for on a test, and how we decide whether or not to pass a student.
Check out week's episode "Failing a Test": • Failing a Belt Test | ...
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[@Tyler16bit]

An instructor who passes and/or fails a student for the right reasons shows they care about their development as a martial artist and also as a person. It should be considered an honor with either result.

[@SempaiMarc]

I once had 30 students testing and failed 29. The parents actually came to me and said how much they respected me for not just being a belt factory but making my students earn their rank. the following month, all my students did so much better and earned their ranks. It's not easy to fail a student, but it builds character.

[@Jeff-Jordan]

Sorry but that's just ridiculous and a great path to liquidation in the long term.

[@KurtAngle89]

My school is one that teaches mostly kids and NEVER EVER fails them at tests, wich makes me mad. I am now assistant instructor and i will make clear that belts shouldn't be given out like candies, otherwise kids who work more and better will lost motivation. However, most kids who didn't want to work seriously have left after the covid stop, so for now that is not the main problem

[@blockmasterscott]

I never have failed a student on a test, so I'm pretty much spared this. Now I've told students that they can't test yet because they are not ready, and it's always a "oh ok" or a sad face and asking when they can test. Never had one fail because I see what they can do during every class, the test is just a formality. About 30 years ago I saw a very young brown belt get mad when told he was not ready for black. I remember my master yelling at him to be quiet or leave the building.

[@KurtAngle89]

So you don't hold belt tests regularly once or twice a year?

[@blockmasterscott]

@@KurtAngle89 I don’t have my own place any more so there’s no testing at all! 🤣 But when I did, it was one was one evening a month.

[@AliFayeFaye]

(Long) I've had this conversation a few times lol. My instructor always said that because our style is a mix, our tests have a basic outline and never something specific. This is a flaw that shows our students can graze through some testing without showing improvement... however as long as they have great effort during, it's usually not that bad. But when it comes to the students who don't show ANY effort, I have a problem. My instructor would always say that he doesn't want to ever fail a student because 1) it sucks to know that you weren't the best instructor for them to make sure they were ready, 2) it makes the kid want to quit. And our school is a part-time dojo. We have affordable rates, and rely on the student income to pay the utilities. For most of us black belts, our Dojo is a passioned hobby and not a source of income. So when a student quits, it could be a loss. The testing fee is the same reason why it is hard to tell the student to wait to test. I've only ever known three students to fail a test at our school. The first was extremely inappropriate during his techniques, the second failed to perform even the bare minimum during testing and class for a few months straight, and myself, after being extremely unsatisfied with my performance. After asking my instructor to retest actually lifted a burden off of his shoulders. I've known tons of students who actually asked to wait so they can train more. It shows a nice level of maturity and helps my instructor not worry about them lol.

[@camiloiribarren1450]

I agree. Attitude, skill and understanding/application is important during the test and during the whole time students are training and practicing. Everything applies because we get taught not just skills but also a code of conduct. Children learning under a good teacher end up respecting themselves and others while having a deeper understanding of life. This is coming from a student and not a teacher, I’m not there yet but I hope to be one day

[@kracylatin01]

As an instructor I held students back from testing because they were not ready. I explained what was lacking and had do some work shop classes with other instructors and help the student with the materials. When the student was ready an application is submitted to all the instructors to approve if the student was ready for testing. I have been spared the not having to fail a student because when it came down to testing they were more than ready

[@fredricclack7137]

the Test IS in class!

[@RealmOfDawn]

In ITF TKD we don't allow people to enter the grading without their teachers's permission, and that teacher only gives permission until he is certain the kid is ready for the test. That's why it's RARE but not unheard of that people fail. As for adults, I failed my 1st dan black belt test once, before passing the 2nd time. But that was more on me really, and my Cerebral Palsy. Master wanted it to be so clearly cleared, that no one could say I was handed the belt out of pity.

[@jacegallagher8589]

My instructor had to fail me at my Yellow Belt test. He gave me feedback of course. However, it was through another student that I learned I was the dojo's first student to fail at Yellow belt. Typically the failures started at Orange Belt aka the 3rd belt. I confronted my instructor and asked him why he held back telling me that I was the first one to fail yellow belt. He told me that he only wanted to give me the feedback necessary to improve, not to add salt to the wound with a fact that had no bearing on my capabilities. He was afraid it would unnecessarily undermine my confidence and that he had faith in my ability to excel.

[@gnichols5051]

I would so quit that gym. Life is too short to pay a huge chunk of money to perpetuate his bull5hit.

[@MushagasheNative]

Thank you sir! Everything you said does not only apply to Martial Arts training but day to day life's interactions as well.

[@kickingitwiththekerofskys8476]

Back when I was teaching my son, Timmy, I failed him for his green belt test; but passed his friend Aman. Timmy was not taking the test seriously. He took it sadly, but in the end, years later, he got promoted to his black belt by a board of masters. Now he is a 3rd Dan. I am proud of how far he became. I hope to get him up to his 4th Dan this year. And later his 5th and 6th Dans. To become a 7th Dan and higher in my system one has to be 50 or older and to become a 10th Dan 60 or older. However, I still coach my son on his martial arts journey. Oss. Master K, MA 9th Dan

[@gnichols5051]

Unfortunately given the current state of the industry most instructors can't afford to fail students as they know far too well that the second that happens they'll most likely drop out or find another dojo and they're just not enough replacements coming in these days.

[@presentelaw]

Great advice!! Solid points!! I think it is important for dojos to be upfront and clear to students when they sign up. They must tell students whether the school is kata/pattern focused or self-defence. This will avoid confusions, misunderstandings, and frustrations. Some students don't like kumite/sparring whereas others want more. When they say to students we go for "tournaments and won medals before," they need to clarify whether they were kata tournaments or full-contact fights.

[@rscole89]

Great videos I am currently a student of American kenpo I’ve never commented here before but this guy truly knows how to be a fair and respectful instructor. American kenpo and martial arts in general need more of this type of positivity.

[@rasalghul9331]

I wonder if it is better to have formal tests or handle promotions like they do in bjj and Muay Thai schools. Based on the day to day progress a student is making, the instructor will just one day promote the student. I believe that is also the way promotions were handled in the early part of the 20th century in places like Okinawa and Japan. I think the idea of test day and promotions was really more of an American invention within martial arts schools. Even if is wasn't, it seems the idea of working towards a "test day" is a little bit of an oxymoron since karate, or any other martial arts should be something that is woven within you and not something that you can only perform on a test day.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

I can see the discussion for either way. A teacher just promoting a student when they are ready is completely viable and a great way to go about it. It doesn't put too much pomp and circumstance on the event and it downplays the importance of the belt color. On the other hand, an official test day is a good way to see how a person handles being put in the spotlight and handles anxiety. I think both ways have their merit.

[@rasalghul9331]

@@ArtofOneDojo Yes, I agree - and a test day can be a fun event as well. I think part of my bias was coming from being a shy kid. My heart broke hearing about that little kid who was failed and singled out for smiling when in fact the poor kid was probably terrified the entire time!!! I can imagine feeling nervous and sick to my gut even the weeks leading up to a test day - when I know all my parents, peers and adults will all be watching me perform. I know to some kids this is no big deal but to some, it can be terrifying!!! Of course part of learning martial arts is to overcome even these types of challenging, so I see pros and cons both ways. And I am not some softie who thinks kids are made of brittle glass, I just hope dojos understand there are many personalities and some kids (and adults!) are better at doing things in front of an audience.

[@meem-ow4dc]

My teacher will just promote the lower belts when he thinks they are ready, but he will make the upper belts go thru a formal test

[@altronxxxg]

In my country most dojos are closing because they are losing players that went to MMA clubs where there is no belts rank, personally i started to think to leave kyokushin and go to MMA too.

[@lukebarnett6434]

Brilliant video , perfect explanations 🙏

[@freelancerblitz2579]

Earlier this week i was assisting my dojos chief instructor (5th Dan) in renevating the floor and expanding the Dojo, I gave him my old licence from another dojo to show my past grading information and we had a discusion about failing grades as i came close to failing my 1st Kyu, He told me that a few years previous they had failed 4 guys on their black belt gradings, Not for knowledge and skill but for poor etiquette as the Dojos Founder (9th Dan) felt their cocky attitudes and talking and joking between demonstrations were very disrespectful, This dojo is very traditional, Afterwards they quit and never came back.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

What a shame to get so far into your training and to fail a test over bad behavior and then to quit on top of it. They didn't have it in them it seems.

[@anthonysicily5768]

I agree with failing students if they do not pass the exam on the day But.... I also agree that students should only be allowed to take the exam after several in class ‘test’ exams. But most dojo’s just use belts as money makers, sub dividing belts or sub sub dividing belts to make even more exam fee money In fact, several dojo’s i trained at (briefly) stated that regardless of skill, knowledge or ability, only tested based on time (ie fees received). Not for me. If I have the skill and ability, i should be allowed test. Especially as a lot of dojo’s insist you start at white belt regardless or your previous experience.

[@ShaunCKennedyAuthor]

I hate failing students so much that when I was setting up my rank testing, rather than testing a student for the next rank I made one unified test for the whole curriculum and then students were tested to say where in the curriculum they landed. It was not popular and if I were to start teaching again I would go back to the specific tests for specific ranks just because of how unpopular it was. But I liked it.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

It doesn't feel good to fail anyone...but just keep in mind it's not helping them either if you pass them and they didn't earn it.

[@ShaunCKennedyAuthor]

@@ArtofOneDojo That was the thing I liked about my setup: I tested them and told them what level they passed to. Which, sometimes, was a rank below where they had been at if they hadn't been practicing. But it was never failing, it was always ask evaluation. And everyone liked it when they "skipped" a rank. Less so when they went back.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@ShaunCKennedyAuthor It's definitely an interesting way to do it...especially if you can back slide a rank, I like the urgency and importance put on that.

[@jonathanwall5784]

I was testing a student for his blue belt. He did great on everything, till the breaking portion. He couldnt use the strike properly on a target, he kept missing the point of impact and the follow through. I'm a newer instructor, so I decided maybe I hadnt trained him enough in the application of the strike. I paused his test for two weeks and gave him outside and in class training. He had a clean break then and was promoted.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

That's great, you held both of yourselves accountable, worked together, and got him to pass. I'm sure he appreciated it much more after that!

[@jonathanwall5784]

He worked hard at it and has since increased his efforts at his new rank. All in all, the desired outcome for both of us.

[@clivewakeham7239]

My first Tae Kwon Do instructor was not allowed to test for his 2nd-degree black belt until 8 years after his original black belt since he had to run a couple of locations for years before he was ready to test. Of course, the Master flew back to Korea and came back with an even higher rank. We were all classed as cattle - quote by the person.

[@NMIBUBBLE]

If the student doesn’t know the material he shouldn’t pass but if he gives his all while testing and listen to what he has to do then he’ll pass, board breaking included! Also if his parents say his doing good in school and listening to his parents at home he’ll pass with flying colors!

[@timlinator]

My style has preliminary exams prior to the promotional that the student must pass to get an invitation to test at promotional therefore we rarely have to fail someone at promotional with all the friends and family present. Preliminary tests are during regular class time when guests are not present.

[@davidsondan7471]

I got kicked out of a school because of a personal grudge. The instructor was hard on me more than other students but I never complained and when he let me go he did not give me a reason. I'm thinking about going back to martial arts but haven't decided if I want to continue training in the same art or switch to a different one.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Ugh that sucks. All that should be left outside the school, I'm sorry he acted that way.

[@KurtAngle89]

Well, try a different school, for sure

[@ghost7524]

I agree with your reasoning for passing/failing a student, Mr. Dan. In my experience of training, I had never technically failed a testing. But, the last belt testing I had when I was training with my Chung Do Kwan TKD instructor, I passed on probation. For his belt testing if you passed, on the certificate it would say that you passed either fully or probationally (I don't remember the exact wording used and I have to go dig up my certificates to find our *lol*) . In my case, during that last testing I had a little bit of a little bit of an issue with the self-defense part-a couple of my self-defense sets didn't workout right, but the main issue was during the parring. The main difference with the that testing and the test before was that I had to be the sparring partner for everyone testing, even with the teenagers who were sparring. But when it came to me sparring, I had to spar against my instructor, because I had the most experience of everyone and it really wouldn't have been a challenge. My instructor really brought it out of me during that testing. The last testing I had, it was the same thing where I was the sparring partner for everyone. But this time when I sparred, my instructor had a student from our sister school spar with me. He was a red belt/2nd Gup and it was a good challenge, but I really didn't spar as hard and wasn't nearly as aggressive as I should've have been. When I passed on probation and was told the reason way, I took it seriously and it had me a little down...but when I thought about it I did need to work on those things. Now for the self-defense drills, it was something that we never really practice much at all. But after that testing, my instructor asked us if we would want to do more with learning self-defense. It's too bad that because of my work and school schedule that I had to stop training fully.

[@billtaylor1656]

This doesn't directly apply to the testing process however you have mentioned ethics of the teacher. I was at a school years ago where the teacher was boffing a student.

[@mizukarate]

When I would rank my own students I would do the "test" more as an "Ordeal". I know if my personal student is rank level or not. Anyway if my students took the challenge of this "Ordeal" as such they got the rank. I would generally include kata, random tasks, sparring and anything I felt pushed the student to his/her limits. If they showed fighting spirit it was a done deal. However I would also give positive and negative evaluation of the student. So in my school we always had a good time "testing".

[@ArtofOneDojo]

I like this approach :)

[@mizukarate]

@@ArtofOneDojo I developed this from my experience as a student,an instructor and from my study of sports psychology. The student feels accomplishment if he/she goes into the belly of the beast. Most martial arts students sacrifice a lot of money and time to train. So I feel when instructors dangle rank they hurt the spirit of martial arts in general. Better to have the student be over prepared for the rank than under prepared. Also I feel you should be up front about rank requirements.

[@mizukarate]

@@ArtofOneDojo Years ago I was going to strip my ranking system down to White, Black, and Instructor. My students hated the idea. They really wanted to go up the ranks in some way. I learned from them that rank matters to them.

[@timlinator]

Kata is moving text book, Bunkai and Kumite (sparring) are application. Book smart alone isn't going to cut it, you have to do.

[@DaveBennett63]

If a student fails a test, that is 95% the fault of the instructor. Allowing a student to test who isn't ready is a disservice to the student, no matter if the student is delusional of their abilities. If they aren't ready, they shouldn't be tested. Period. I have witnessed tests at schools where students were tested purely on how much time they'd been there, not on their capabilities with the material. I saw many obviously fail, totally not knowing the material and then still be "passed." I lost most respect for that school on seeing this. A good instructor knows their students and won't test them until they are sure they'll pass. A test is stressful even for someone who knows and is confident of the material, let a lone someone who isn't confident and doesn't know it. So it all comes back to the instructor.

[@Jeff-Jordan]

@Jake Collins Yes I read that post. I wonder if that guy is still in business.

[@shanedeeprose9035]

I failed my blue and brown because of my katas we’re not crisp enough I did the katas ok no mistakes just that they weren’t crisp enough 😡

[@Froge4291]

Idk why are you so angry bout it but k

[@ncaviationfilms]

So did I for my orange belt stripe back in October 2021.

[@sga1ac3]

random idea i think is interesting for a video, what if u are an instructor and ur own child is a student? or if ur parent is a teacher?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

We did a video kinda of close to this topic a little while back. Maybe this helps? kzbin.info/www/bejne/aojdaINuh716a7c

[@Jaxdp65]

I question myself with one student she has a learning disability I find it trying at times to teach her but held her back because she couldn’t grasp the art she was learning I truly feel if you come to learn to defend yourself you have to grasp what you’re learning I’m I right? I went to a school who passed everyone I was like a sponge I learned every chance I could if the doors were open I was there if anyone has had experience with kids like that I could use advice thanks

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Exactly. You need to understand what you're learning in order to pass in my opinion.

[@fox77scotland50]

I have a question I am a black belt and I help my instructor test I'm more picky then he is about katas stances and stuff like that. So I guess my question is since it's not by school how much should I voice it? There's at least one case I do not think the kid should have passed and he had me sign the certificate I just don't know if that's right. Just curious about your thoughts thank you.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Hi, this is an excellent question, yet not easy to answer. It really depends on the relationship you have with your instructor and how close you are. You don't want to come across as questioning their judgement and I certainly would not say anything in front of anyone else. But if it is a concern you have, you can approach them privately and say that you are trying to refine and establish your own criteria for judging a student's performance so that you'll be more effective at teaching in the future. If you are really close with your instructor, you can sometimes ask directly, "I was concerned with X's stances and wasn't sure they were where they should be at his level, what were some of the other considerations you put into passing him?" Or if you feel you need to be more subtle, you can mention some things you noticed that students did really well and then slip that in there. For example "Great test today, I was trying to pay attention to some of closer details and I really like the power that 'Y' had, and 'Z' was looking really sharp on his katas. 'X' had good focus, but it seemed like his stances weren't quite where they should be at his level." and then ask what they think or what the testing criteria is. Don't confront them and tell them "You passed them, I would not have done that". Rather if you feel you need to voice it, I would do it in a way that is more asking for their input while subtly letting them know what you noticed.

[@AliFayeFaye]

Same boat! i will always have notes and criticisms for the students and only give them when asked. If the comment is very strong, I always make sure to voice it, privately, after the group meeting.

[@fox77scotland50]

@@ArtofOneDojo thank you

[@tonyduffy6509]

You should definitely bring it up in private. I had the exact same thing myself when i was doing Shotokan I brought it up and it ruined my relationship with my instructor. I would grade people but refused to sign certs or licences. I ended up leaving the school. You have to be true to yourself but be prepared for the fall out if any. Walk your own path.

[@littlegiantrobo6523]

On that student who improvised and kept going: you said that was what you were looking for. Did she know that? Do all of your students know that? Do you teach them that and make sure that's an expectation you have of them?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Absolutely. I always tried to stress to them the importance of being able to adapt in the moment. When working on techniques in a learning setting and they misstep or do something wrong, I tell them that it's ok and that in real life things won't go as expected and then I'll ask them what they can do from that position. We also did drills with partners where one partner would throw one attack in slow motion...about 30% speed. The other partner had to deflect it and throw a counter (also in slow motion). The idea was to create this "ping pong" of defense and attack but being in slow motion it let the students see and process options. It was to help cultivate their thinking on the fly, and then later on in class when we'd do line drills or testing...we'd tell them the same thing...being able to adapt and change on the fly is more important than getting a technique "book right".

[@littlegiantrobo6523]

@@ArtofOneDojo Those are great practices. I asked because I had an instructor that was always looking for something in his students that he didn't really do a good job of teaching. That's another type of teacher that might fail a student who is not malicious like the others you mentioned. Such an instructor may not be aware they could, and should, teach that quality that they are looking for. It's also a classic problem in grade school, where assessment is not necessarily well-aligned with instruction, and so tests are hard because they test things not directly taught. Anyway, thanks for the response, and I like your methods.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@littlegiantrobo6523 That is an excellent point and I completely agree. That every teacher knows what to look for, but then we have to question the quality of teaching.

[@Uniquetkd]

I am a assistant instructor and there is a kid he is 5 and kids that age are known to be goofy but with this kid he pushes it to the max so we will give him push ups or wall sit and tell him why but it seems like there is no effect we even deny him from testing but it still did not seem to bother him so I was wonder if there is a one that has experience with a child like this and has anything work and worked well?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

That's not easy for sure, especially at that age. SOMETIMES, positive attention can help. Whenever they DO do something correct, point it out...make them feel good for behaving. Or sometimes asking them to demonstrate or be a helper gives them a confidence boost and they like it and strive to keep doing it. On some occasions what I used to do with kids that were a handful like that...sometimes if we got a new student I'd ask the troublesome student to help that student and sometimes you'd see them step up and try to help. 5 may be a bit young for that but maybe trying to reward good behavior with positive attention and see if that makes any difference?

[@star-b-qpodcast54]

There is literally nothing I disagree with in this video

[@snowissj]

I tested only horse stance. Didn’t need to get low, just half hour and a 2x4. After that I promoted with just letting them know. No test needed,

[@cantholdthis17]

What if my child gets hurt and not able to perform and practice. Do they still have a chance to catch up with their class after the injury a few months later?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Catch up? As if if they miss a few months to quickly cram in study and jump ahead the months of material to catch up to her classmates? No, that should never be the case. For a good school, the work and time has to be put in. It's not a race and should never be a race. If you miss time then no, you don't get to jump ahead to match the other students. That's not fair to those who put in the months worth of hard work and the quality won't be the same. There is no set time for each belt, a student earns it when they know their material. If the belt is the focus, then that is doing the student a great disservice.

[@cornerofthemoon]

If the injury occurred at the gym then yes they should make accommodation to help.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@cornerofthemoon It depends on the injury. Was the school negligent or was the child not listening? I've seen cases of both. In either case it's the schools responsibility to help get that student caught up...but that is no reason to accelerate their progress just so they can be the same rank as their peers. If they lost time...they "lost time". It's gone. You can't speed it up to get it back, you just have to put the work in.

[@cantholdthis17]

@@ArtofOneDojo she's in the master class. And on Fridays after the regular class there's a kicks and tricks class. For the month They were learning how to flip in the kicks and tricks classes. So she ended up hurting her back. All this happened in March. She's been out of karate since March. And we just did an MRI a few weeks ago and got the results back. She was seeing a chiropractor for a month and now she just started physical therapy last week. The Dr said he'll have her back in karate before the tournament in September. Missing karate and not going to the next belt really has her spirit down. But I have talked to her and gave the advice you gave about "it's not a race" I explained to her in life you're going to battle some hurdles and that this is one of them. She's 10 years old and she's blue belt and her class is going for belt testing on the 28th of June. She knows she won't be back for it and I think she's taking it better now and she's looking forward to her next Tournament in September. Since she missed June's tournament. Thank you for the reply and the advice. I appreciate it.

[@Froge4291]

Hi I have a question about a situation in my dojo: My dojo is pretty much legit and it is run by a federation in my country so it aint a Mcdojo. But there is a -small- slightly concerning issue which is the kids class. Like I see kids pretty much my grade but their performance is bugging me like some mistake their left and right side some throw a regular zuki instead of a reverse some might do the kata "half assed" or "sloppy" but they seem to be going up belt by belt. But I know for a fact that the grading for a black belt is serious stuff: 1: you need to be 14 years or older 2: you need to spend 1 year between the last degree of brown and the black belt grading (our last degree for brown is the second) 3: you grade alone (or that is what I heard of) in a certain big city (I originally live in a small town and said big city is like a state that has small towns inside and all of them is ruled by a single person) And sometimes I question if it is ok to let the kids go up the grading even though they don't take the training seriously like adults.

[@Froge4291]

We have young brown belts who forgot their damn forms (one of them thankfully quit due to some interaction he had with me)

[@ArtofOneDojo]

There could be a lot of reasons but kids aren't going to take the martial arts as seriously as adults will, not usually anyway. Kids often have different considerations when promoting them and they need to be taught differently. I wouldn't worry so much about how THEY are progressing and more on your own training. The real question is...when those kids are getting to 14 are they still allowed to test for their black belt with the same sloppiness? If your school is legit then they'll have to meet the same standards as everyone else does and all is good. If they are allowed to pass with sloppy technique...then the school may not have the standards you'd hope they have.

[@Froge4291]

@@ArtofOneDojo appreciate your reply. Yes im trying to focus on my own training. And also yes the more advanced you are, the more strict the sensei gets. The lesson is divided in 5 groups with various intensities on training 1: white and yellow belts (mostly children and a few teens where they just do the basics) 2: advanced yellow to green (slightly more strict with the details but still it is mostly kids and it is pretty much the basics) 3: Green to blue and a few brown belts (more details in training but due to it having 90% children the class is still not that intense and quite repetitive) 4: blue and brown (these ones have more focus on details and because the whole lesson here is teens and adults meaning the training is quite intense) 5: black (they are divided to 2 groups in what spectrum they are mainly competing in either Kata or kumite)

[@Froge4291]

@@ArtofOneDojo the funny thing is just today I had a similar discussion with my dear mother and she said the same thing "focus on your training"

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@Froge4291 Mother is wise :) Like I said, kids have a different learning process, and I think that's fine as long as they meet the required standards when the time comes. If these kids are getting black belt and they're still slopping and doing everything wrong, then that's the sign of a problem.

[@fredricclack7137]

5 years MINIMUM 4 Black Belt for sure!

[@ArtofOneDojo]

It depends on the art of course, some require a lot more. But for the "Junior" black belt, it was typically 3-4 years depending on how good the student was and how often they came. However, this was not a full black belt...this just meant they were done with the kids material and then graduating into the adult curriculum where they would spend at least another 4 years minimum learning before they were old enough and able enough to test for first Dan.

[@fredricclack7137]

@@ArtofOneDojo No BB b4 18- junior BB

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@fredricclack7137 Again, that depends on the art. None of our kids ever got first degree black belt being younger than 16. Some 16 year olds CAN be seriously effective if they have the skill. I have sparred against 16 years old (recently) that are taller than I am and put up a darn good fight so I'm not so strict on the age thing. Do I think a 10 year old should have a first degree black belt? No. But I don't think 18 has to be a hard cutoff. The kid's program took 3-4 at the minimum for any of the kids to get their junior belt, and then another 4 years at least to get their adult belt. That's 7-8 years of training. If they started at 8...that puts them at 16. IF they can fight and perform the material, then they've earned their belt.

[@fredricclack7137]

@@ArtofOneDojo physical ability is only 10%; mental & Spiritual development takes ⏰& out of over 2,000 youths I had 2 that understood the "essence" of MA

[@ArtofOneDojo]

@@fredricclack7137 Agreed, but many youth are very mature and can comprehend a lot. Also, let's be careful and not treat black belt like it's a final goal. It's just a beginning. All black belt means is that the student has learned and understood all the basics. This goes for any age. A 14-16-18 year old can absolutely understand the basics. You can't expect them to master the art at first dan. The "essence" of MA is something people learn and develop and fine tune over their lifetime. It doesn't happen magically by age 18. Some people can establish that mentality earlier than others.

[@cornerofthemoon]

I'm surprised any instructor would be cavalier about failing students these days because of five letters...C-O-V-I-D. Retention in the industry was bad enough even before the pandemic.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Retaining students during a pandemic isn't reason enough to promote someone to a new belt to be honest. You want to retain your students of course, but if they are not performing or earning the rank, then they shouldn't promote, pandemic situation or not.

[@erichansen7020]

Not saying it's a majority or even a significant minority, but it amazes me how many former (and some current) dojo instructors are on sex offenders registration lists. How they continue to get jobs working with children is beyond me. Just be sure to do your research if your looking into trying a new studio.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

If they are on the list in the United States then they are NOT working with children, at least not alone. I have a former instructor like this, and he wasn't allowed to have the school open without at least one other adult instructor there with him.

[@oldnatty61]

My feedback. I don't understand how someone w/the beginnings of a double chin can call themselves a Martial Arts instructor, give guidance on testing martial art students, let alone test anyone else?

[@ArtofOneDojo]

Is this aimed at me? Perhaps 28 years of experience training and teaching, breaking down the intricacies of the system, learning various methods of practice from multiple instructors and colleagues, researching other arts and talking to martial artist across the world might perhaps hold a little more substance in sharing experiences than a few extra pounds, no? I've tested a lot of people and I've been through many of my own tests and I value what I've learned from my experiences and try to do good by sharing that with those who send me daily questions on topic such as this.

[@oldnatty61]

@@ArtofOneDojo My bedside manner is aggressives. In your face. Especially w/ someone claiming to be an instructor. That I've not been able to ruffle your feathers, and you continue to respond to me w/ in such a positive calm well thought out way only gives you bonus points. I believe you have done all that you say. I believe that you truly have the love and passion for Martial Arts, and your Art. That's why I fuck w/ you. You care. You have the passion. You are so close. You're missing a few points. I can help.

[@ArtofOneDojo]

I'm always open to a productive debate, but it's not always clear what perspective you're coming from so I like to clarify. I absolutely do care, that's the whole reason we this channel, to spread the benefits and positive and productive discussions in the martial arts.

[@brucelevine6517]

first I want to say A student didn't fail only the instuctor fails. If a student isnt given proper instruction or extra attention it's the instructors fault you get paid to teach karate , thats work if your too lazy to teach but not to lazy to collect money you are a thief. second I want to say ranks above third Dan are always a matter of "its been long enough" I'm not impressed by 7th Dan so called experts there's no difference between a third Dan and any thing higher except the age of the student as a matter of fact most third dans at age 35 are a lot better than there 7th, 8th 9th Dan masters at age 65 I know because I'm 65 and the " old Grey mare ain't what she used to be and no one is exempt from age and the problems that come with it

[@ArtofOneDojo]

I can agree with some of this, however it is possible to have a great teacher and have a student that chooses not to apply themselves. Students can be lazy too, and even if they are given the best instruction of the world, they have to want it enough to put the work into it. As far as no difference between a 3rd or 7th Dan, or anything above 3rd is "a matter of time enough" I disagree with. Some martial arts still have curriculum and testing past 3rd. Kenpo is one of them. Some branches of Kenpo have new curriculum up to 5th degree. And personally speaking, I don't feel time alone is enough to go up in rank. Increasing in the higher ranks is partially time, but also supposed to be based on contribution back to the art. Ranking just because it's been "long enough" is not a viable reason in my opinion. There should be some elevation of knowledge and experience achieved in that time.

[@fredricclack7137]

PAID 4 teaching?!WTF?

[@thecomicreader]

well ya gotta eat

[@jesseeharris1925]

How do you keep the electricity and water on? How do you pay the rent or lease for your dojo? If I were a multimillionaire then for sure I'd teach for free but that's not reality. I do think there is a limit though. I know blackbelts paying an insanely ridiculous amount for a test. $400 for a 4th Dan test, $500 for 5th Dan, $600 for 6th Dan, etc. That's wrong and ridiculous. I'm a 1st Dan and can't and won't pay $200 or more for a test.

[@fredricclack7137]

@@jesseeharris1925 advanced Students r expected 2 Teach 2 show their ability & proficiency- part of my training in All Arts I've studied- extra instructionb gratis ☯

[@fredricclack7137]

@@jesseeharris1925 my Tang Soo Do Master quit 1 organization 4 charging the same 'rates' as u r texting, & I followed as well!

[@ArtofOneDojo]

There is another way this can be looked at too: "Expecting to be taught for free? WTF?" If a person is running a school, there are expenses for that school (which includes staff). I think it's extremely reasonable to charge for lessons. It is a skilled craft, that takes years and a lifetime to perfect so it really isn't fair to expect that person to teach for free. Considering that we don't expect school teachers, college professors, physical therapists, personal trainers, or emergency services to work for free. A martial arts instructor is no different. They have a craft, they have expenses, and they are often putting full time hours into teaching and running a school (it's a LOT more work than most people realize). Now if you are referring to assistant instructors and student teachers...there can be more flexibility. If you are helping out in class or just doing a lesson here and there and helping the school, OR getting a discount on your own lessons, then sure, teaching should be volunteer. But if it's a STAFF member, who comes in every day and puts in 6 hours of teaching, including weekends...then that's a job. Especially if they are still paying their full school tuition (which he was). My first job was an assistant instructor. I helped out here and there with students, but as soon as I was "hired" to teach, and put on a schedule, and had to come in to work 4 hours every day after going to school full time, that becomes a job. I still had to pay my tuition, and I still helped out in my own classes, but we were expected to run the entire classes all day while my instructor sat back in his office. At that point, we are staff and we are in working during what normally would have been free time, or time I could have worked another job. It is not at all unreasonable to pay an instructor or even an assistant for teaching if they are putting in the time for it.