Ashara Dayne: A Horror Story. Part One

The tale of Ashara Dayne is much discussed in the ASoIaF community. Whilst it is wrapped in the vagaries and mysteries of backstory, and fertile ground for all manner of fantastical theories, a more grounded theory, presented here, may well be more horrific than the rest.
Check out Part 2

[@silver057]

I firmly believe that it could have been only one man who slept (fell mutually in love) with Ashara Dayne: the man, the myth, the valyrian steel shotgun wielding legend, Howland Reed.

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Ah an optimist, welcome welcome. You may have come to the wrong place, there are no happily ever afters here. I too have a favourite character I want to retire safely to obscurity. And it would be an absolute cruelty to entirely rule out that possibility. But keep living the dream!

[@jasonvazquez8652]

I'm open to the N+A=J theory to be honest. Also, whenever Ashara is ever mentioned, her romance with Ned is mentioned. Edric Dayne (who is named after Ned) even confirms it. Meera Reed also confirms it, and she heard this story from her father Howland, who was definitely there at the tourney. The problem I have with Brandon being the "Stark who dishonored Ashara" is that it's outright said that Brandon was the one who hooked them up and got them to dance together. So, it wouldn't exactly make a lot of sense if he decided to sleep with a girl whom he knew his brother liked. But we won't really know the full story until Winds of Winter is released, will we? Keep up the good work, by the way, nice art.

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Mayhaps not even in Winds, or Dream. As you say, we do not know, and the way GRRM works is we never will truly know. Even R+L=J is an intuitive leap. Edric however, is working off second or third hand information via Allyria, an aunt. Keep in mind it could be his mother's sister, rather than his father's. No confirmation. As to Meera, again we know they danced. But Ashara danced with several people. As to Brandon screwing with his brother, not all sibling dynamics are healthy in ASoIaF. See Robert-Stannis, Theon-Brothers, Euron-Aeron, Euron-Victarion, Joffery-Tommen, Larys-Harwin, Aegon IV-Aemon, the list goes on. We assume. But again... Rose-Tinted glasses. Thank you, for the encouragement.

[@aprilmae274]

Damn-this video is impressive! Your "Mr. Darcy" comment made me laugh so hard. It was all pretty clever, and I love the animation. So-what if Ashara was dancing with specific people in order to pass messages on the DL?

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Thank you so very much. Mayhaps she was. The first three were all from Rhaegar's faction at court. Eddard is the dark horse, stumbling into something...

[@queenxx1690]

@@pressxtodoubt6346 She was also the only woman know to be dancing as Rhaegar was playing on his harp she was dancing happily (at least her laughing eyes ) Lyanna was crying maybe because she did not know meaning behind song or Ashara heard it more than once so maybe Ashara danced as Rhaegar played for her

[@49293per]

This is impressive content! I hope you keep making more!

[@Sizdothyx]

One thing that makes me scratching my head at why Rhaegar and Lyanna's son would be Jon it's that Martin absolutely despises fantasy cliches and attempts to navigate for them at every opportunity. He's said at much: ASOIAF is not a fantasy series - it's a political thriller and war saga that just so happens to be set in a fantasy world. And if we're going to rope cliches: 1. Lost royalty 2. Raised by a relative that isn't a parent (Bonus points for Uncleism) 3. Chosen One Martin would be the last person to give those a look. He always thought that they were terribly predictable. He wouldn't renege on his very principles, would he?

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

You draw overly simplistic conclusions here. Whilst Martin may (or may not) "despise" these tropes, avoiding them entirely is only one conclusion and not particularly mature or useful. "You sound like a sulky boy, Robb" Catelyn said sharply. "A child sees an obstacle, and his first thought is to run around it or knock it down. A lord must learn that sometimes words can accomplish what swords cannot." Catelyn IX, A Game of Thrones, Martin, G. R. R., 1996. Martin shows a tendency to subvert tropes rather than ignore them entirely. This helps as the trope creates a familiar point of reference for the audience, a short-hand to introduce a complex idea, and the subversion creates a contrast, calling attention to where Martin thinks the trope is 'wrong'. Thesis-Antithesis. It is much harder to build a foundation for an argument in a vacuum. An Martin rarely conjures concepts out of the ether. So much inspiration is drawn from mythology, and history, and other fantasy. Using the familiar is EFFICIENT. Martin can and likely will subvert this particular trope with Jon. Daenerys, who is also lost Royalty (by the way), subverts the trope by being a Princess, when the prophecy calls for a Prince, and Valyrian is gender neutral. Jon may end up becoming the Night King, or another false Prince that was Promised. He can keep his principles, and still give the trope a look. With appropriate subversion, of course.

[@Sizdothyx]

@@pressxtodoubt6346 >Use of word trope detected Yeah, I'm out. Cheers and have a good one.

[@lalywindland5764]

I've always believed that there were only a few people who would dare take Ashara Dayne, with or without her consent, out of fear of her formidable brother, Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. They could be, in my opinion: 1) The Mad King. He has absolute power and has a history of taking "unwanted liberties" with high born ladies. He might have threatened Ashara with her brother's life, to keep her quiet. 2) Prince Rheagar. He was handsome and charming enough to convince any woman to bed him. He was also friends with her brother. 3) Howland Reed. He didn't know much about the Court and was the type to risk everything for the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. What she saw in him is a mystery, as young girls rarely go for that type of guy, but we don't know her personality. 4) Brandon Stark. He was rash, a womanizer, yet discreet with his conquests. However, I don't think he would have asked a dance for his brother, if he was attracted to her... 5) Robert Baratheon. He was another handsome womanizer, strong enough not to fear Arthur and cousin to the king. 6) Ser Arthur Dayne himself. Jaime Lannister might have had more in common with his idol than he had ever realized ! I have strong doubts about Ashara's stillbirth and jump off the tower, she could have faked them and live quietly in Essos ever since. It's very suspicious the Daynes like Ned so much to name their son after him, after he offed Ser Arthur, even in an honest duel. Jaime could never forgive Ned for that and he wasn't his kin !

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Whilst I would love to shamelessly plug my second video, if you haven't already seen it... Since it covers a few of these options. Otherwise, I've heard a fair amount of Howland-Ashara shipping, though I never saw much in the way of context clues. Perhaps I am missing something, but Martin tends towards foreshadowing over plot twists, and Howland would be an incredible plot twist. Needs more information. Robert is a bit strange in that his many indiscretions tend to be with Lowborn women. At the time, he seemed obsessed with Lyanna (Honestly, he was probably obsessed with Ned, and Lyanna was a proxy for Ned in some ways). There is a demarcation between lowborn and highborn women, (Often because the highborn women have brothers like Ser Arthur), which discourages affairs, which is why I don't think it was either Brandon or Robert. Arthur himself is an interesting possibility, though the dishonouring seems a bit too much of an open secret for it to be (exclusively) Arthur. (Though in the story of King Arthur, he does end up getting tricked into impregnating his half-sister.) I do suspect Arthur is somewhat more renegade and less paragon than the PoVcharacters relate, however.

[@gerganakoleva4137]

Those are all good questions, but oi am not convinced the answers will be straightforward. We have been in Ned's head. He calls it "the summer of love" with a little bit of sadness about it, like "good old times", but he never thinks about Ashara, so even if he liked her, as she was a beautiful woman, he was not deep in love with her, as the feeling will leave other impressions in his head. I am not sure about Brandon and also I am not sure why Ashara will be so taken with him, to be let to be seduced. She is not some little girl from an isolated northern castle, her highest prospects of marring a Stark.

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Absolutely. There is no precedent for House Dayne to marry that far a field, or practical benefit to her marrying a Stark, Brandon is promised, and Eddard is a Second Son. There may have been a dalliance (Meaning Extra-Martial action), but there are other more intriguing possibilities.

[@TheBlackconsigliere]

These are well done videos. Excellent content. Following.

[@user-nv3gy3gp9m]

Cool❤❤❤❤❤ definitely got my attention and a new follower

[@carrorallison7656]

No words. Very well thought out and written.

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Thank you very much

[@Luciana_McC_99]

Great video. Liked and subscribed. I hope all is well on your end best wishes to you and yours. Merry Christmas

[@queenxx1690]

If Rhaegar wanted make Ashara his new Queen maybe it was Aerys who r*ped with her to spite him ,she was his best friend younger sister after all.When Rhaella was running from dragonstone Jamie said they left at morning but Vicerys said they traveled at Midnight so who Jamie saw playing Queen at the Morning of course sister of Sword of the morning (Dawn or more like Dayne ) Ashara was in Kings Landing but she left before sack i wonder who helped her Rhaegar people and did Aerys knew about it or maybe he was behind it

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Aerys is exactly that spiteful, plus all the information he could get out of her on Rhaegars plans and a confession of treason. It is just too perfect. The discrepancy between Viserys and Jaime's stories is useful, thank you. If I was writing a prequel of Robert's Rebellion, it would be Rhaella who helped Ashara escape, since she has previously dismissed ladies whom Aerys philandered with. Most likely to not approve, most likely to take action, and a brave last act, after a lifetime of standing by and doing little.

[@herbthompson8937]

That might be hands down the strangest depiction of Ashara I've ever seen

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Excellent

[@herbthompson8937]

@@pressxtodoubt6346 it wasn't a compliment.....

[@queenxx1690]

As far as is known, Aerys remained true to this vow, no longer taking any mistress from 275 AC forth.Tourney at Harrenhal happened in 281 AC

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

'As far as is known'.

[@rosstemby1347]

Awesome vid man and great channel! Keep going! I can’t believe the amount of effort your’e putting into the videos and the analysis is spot on to boot!. Apologies if your’e not doing it on purpose but you can drop the vocal fry. It’s like early glimbus :P I’m serious as well, if you aren’t doing it on purpose don’t get self conscious about it and try and stop as that will just make it worse. My only other feedback would be reading more of the text itself. It takes a fair bit more concentration to realise your adapting your statements to them not just sticking them in for reference purposes as you have to read everything on the screen, comprehend and then keep the flow of what you’re talking about. My head cannon has aerys dishonouring ashara at harrenhall and the one true king aerys keeps his vow to his wife “stop turning my handmaidens into whores” and turns his sons wife’s companions into whores instead. Brandon is nice to Ashara proving once again that the reward for being selfless to women after sexual assault is time + sex. Brandon and Ashara do the dirty in Kings landing while his in prison waiting the year or whatever it would take his dad to get there etc… etc…. Brandon hopefully/probably knows at this point his dead and best case just killed his father too. So plenty of room for him to be an asshole!

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Thank you for your appreciation of the amount of work going into the vid and the constructive criticism. Didn't even know the vocal fry was there, but will consider that going forwards (No promises). The other issue, if I understand you correctly, is the multitrack dialogue wherein my voice and the page diverge just enough to strain the concentration of the viewer. (Correct me if I am wrong). That does deserve correction going forwards, being more a matter of better preparation and order of operations. Will definitely make an effort there. As to the last point, Part Two will get to the twist. But... You make an interesting point with Aerys' Loophole. It parallel's Joffery's Loophole, where Cersei tells him he shouldn't strike his Queen (As Robert did to her), so he gets his Kingsguard to do it instead.

[@queenxx1690]

I don't know if you knew this but there is theory that Daenerys is heir of house Dayne her name sounds like Dayne heiress but also Dayne and Aerys so idk if it's true😂

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

There are two other Daenerys. Daenerys Zero, daughter of Jaeherys and Alysanne was only mentioned in Fire and Blood. The first Daenerys, daughter of Aegon IV and Naerys, happens to be a portmanteau of Daena, the mother of Daemon Blackfyre and Naerys his wife.

[@queenxx1690]

@@pressxtodoubt6346 i know

[@queenxx1690]

Daynes may live in Dorne but they are not Dornish and so they may not be like Martells free in their love Dayne comes from Empire of the Dawn and they were kings before Martells

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Well, I propose that Dorne and Dawn and Dayne are very linguistically similar, that the lands were named for the Sword, and not the other way around. Thus they are the 'true' Dornish, or Dawnish if you prefer, as opposed to the Rhoynish conquerors. (Excepting perhaps the CotF)

[@queenxx1690]

I think Ashara looked ro Lyanna because she was crowned Queen of love and beauty people forget that she is also Stark

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Interesting, and a protector if Ashara spotted the Lyanna's confrontation with the squires.

[@shara1979]

She might b A-Shara. But im the Shara, lol. Best named character in ASOIAF. 2nd, i guess, is Shiera Seastar

[@shara1979]

And both cool characters

[@queenxx1690]

Ashara had stillborn daughter not son ,Daenrys eyes said to be like Ashara's

[@queenxx1690]

Ashara got pregnant later even if she was dishonored like that in Harrenhal if dishonor was not asking her to do something umoral

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

There could have been as much as two years, in George-math, between the Tourney of Harrenhal and the End of the Rebellion. Almost certainly was later.

[@martinmullender-taeter5163]

i think you are reading too much into it, i believe that Brandon was a womanizer, agressive, impulsive and loved fighting.... but he also had his own honor and trying to help his brother get a beautiful girl that has her eye on him is actually a very common big brother act, and i highly doubt he would smash the girl that he in his mind helped Ned get .... its just wrong, especially what we know about Brandon and what Ned says about him, Ned Would not be thinking too highly of Brandon if he smashed the girl he wanted .... long story short, i think Ned did have a romance and loved each other and Selmy is just salty that she chose Ned and not him ... thats why he calls it "dishonor" because im super sure that if it was Selmy then he would not "bash" the relationship they shared , what got on his nerves in my mind is .... that Ned let her know it is over and dumped Ashara because he was now engaged to Catlyn, and she ended up killing herself because of it, killed her brother, killed their love, her child was born dead and he left her after she lost everything she loved ... that makes sense ... PS we know a lot about these characters and this just does not fit them, not everything is a big game, Rhaegar would never sell off his wifes ladies in waiting because they are not under his protection or whatever, what is this some weird manga or what? the Daynes are a proud and powerful house, you dont toss around women of that house like a bunch of whores

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Who is Jon's mother? Is it Ashara, Wylla, the fisherman's daughter? Or Lyanna? That is three red herrings we are presented on paper. How did Jon Arryn die? Was it a sudden fever? Was he poisoned by Cersei? By Tyrion? Two books later, it turns out it was his wife, Lysa. In Nightflyers, who of the passengers is the murderer? Turns out it was the telekinesis of the demented computer running the ship. By the nature of GRRMs writing style, explanations are rarely simple. Thus, I disagree that I am reading too much into things. Tyrion thought extremely highly of Jaime for setting him up with Tysha, but Jaime's complicity in their father's abuse ate away at him from the inside. Ned may easily be seeing Brandon through rose-tinted glasses. And sibling dynamics are complicated. Especially since Ned was fostered with Jon Arryn. We see how estranged Arianne and Quentyn get, given their separation, or Asha and Theon. Their father Rickard may not be as extreme as Tywin, but his very obvious ambitions wouldn't make them entirely different. Barristan, being salty at Eddard, is not consistent with his character, given the number of times Barristan defends Ned to Daenerys in later novels. Daenerys inherited her brother's blind, visceral hatred of Ned, and still Barristan risks defending Ned's character. As to your post script, you are making my argument for me. They are a proud house, their ancient heritage would demand from them dignity for their members. But also reclaiming what once was lost. Thank you for your contribution.

[@martinmullender-taeter5163]

@@pressxtodoubt6346 well you are forgetting that the books are out for ages now and what would have been an obscure theory when they came out is common knowledge now, we know that Lyanna is the mother of Jon, we know that the Weirtrees drink blood, we know that the white walkers have a connection to the Starks as a house ... my point is, yes, his plots are rarely simple, but, we also know that there are clues in all the books until now, and its safe to say that the community did in fact worm out the biggest ones, to separate the probable plots from the tinfoil hat plots you have to look at the personalities of the people involved, like you mentioned, Lysa, im pretty sure she drank moon tea to kill her kids with Jon and then went off of them once she was with Petyr and the effect moon tea has after prolonged use resulted in Robert being shaky and super weak ... im also sure it was the Lannister's that actually killed him because Petyr offered to help, and Lysa half mad was only too nice to oblige when he asked, also Petyr framed Hugh, because Lysa was in such a good position that he could exploit later and didnt want to lose this pawn. The difference is that Tywin and Balon had very different ways of raising their children and what values to have them follow, Rickard Stark was more of a honorable politician and justice serving kind of lord, hence, all 4 of the Stark children have a strong stance on justice, it is also clear that they cared for each other ..... and Arianne ... please, that just her being salty that her father chose Quentin because she is too much of a loose cannon an would pull Dorne into trouble, Asha was raised a reaver and Theon was raised a spoilt kid in a forign land where he could do anything and refusing their customs because he isnt a Stark, also Jamie banged his sister at that time, also i think he just wanted Tyrion to feel love and thought he was actually helping then got blindsided by Tywin, im pretty sure morality isnt something taught to the Lannister children, as long as you are strong ... so thats that You are missing one crucial point, why would Ashara claim it was Ned if it was Brandon that did it with her? We know the Daynes all know it was Ned, they even respect Ned after a fashion, true he didnt end up marrying Ashara but im pretty sure both Ned and the Daynes expected it, but then the war broke out and Brandon was killed so Ned had to marry Catlyn because Hoster refused to aid unless he married Cat and Jon married Lysa, and they were in sore need of swords, also marrying Ashara would not bring the Daynes on their side just because of how honorable they are and they would still back Sunspear, and the Targaryens due to their ties, so yes Ned had to marry Cat for the good of his house and the alliance in general. Ned did grow to love Cat, and thats nice, but he didnt marry her out of love and we have a boat load of characters telling us Ned and Ashara fell in love. about Selmy, he said "Stark dishonored her", not being specific, that means he means "the Stark" and the Stark at the moment was Ned, if he talked about a dead Stark, then he would definitely specify the name. As to why he was salty, well he loved Ashara from afar, and some guy wooed her and got together with her, and he found out, so im not surprised, especially for a man like Barristan that would call it a dishonor since they did do it out of wedlock. As to why he defends Ned, well it is simple because Barristan is freaking honest and it would be against his vows to Danny to lie to her just because he was salty about Ned, he said he is good but never showed any good will or affection towards Ned. As to Brandon, he wasnt shy with girls but we are shown that he is indeed honorable, he went to seek a duel instead of just going after Rhaegar, he also took off his armor when finding out Petyr wasnt in full plate for their duel, not only that he asked him to yield multiple times and only slightly scratched him once Petyr refused.... true that may be because he promised it to his future wife but the taking off of most of his armor is very telling as to what kind of person he was, hot blooded? yes, Dishonorable? no ... thats not the type of guy who would help his brother out to ask a girl he liked and then smash her .... Lets say he did, well we know Ashara was into Ned, we know that from a Dayne, the only way Brandon could get with her is that if he forced himself on her, and im pretty sure that was neiter the case or Brandons style, the Daynes would have been outraged if that happened and no way in hell would they let a Stark stay at their place(Ned) or have some respect for them... as to the Daynes trying to reclaim what once was, that isnt true either, they are a honorable and old house, but they have determined where their loyalties lie and climbing the social pool is not their style, they are more of a prestige oriented house, and they tend to keep out of the game of houses in general

[@mindyenglish5305]

Plot twist: Jon Snow is the son of Ned Stark and Lyanna Stark. 🤣😂😅🤢🤮

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Well he does look more like Eddard than his brothers.

[@Anacronian]

More likely the son of Lyanna and Benjen, That would explain why Benjen was sent to the wall by Ned and Benjen's friendliness towards Jon, also Ned's apparent coolness towards Benjen. Jon's hair is almost black, This does not seem like the result of a Rhegar Lyanna coupling, This might sound silly, but hair color was a plot macguffin in A Game of Thrones.

[@mindyenglish5305]

@@Anacronian and I thought mine was disturbing. I honestly think Jon is from Ashara Dane and either Ned or Brandon Stark. Ned swapped him out for Lyana and Rheagar's silver haired kid to keep him safe from Robert. He gave Lyana's kid to Ashara, and took Ashara's north with him. Ashara didn't kill herself over her brother's death. She did it because her baby was taken from her, just like Gilly and Mance's wife were forced to swap their babies. Ashara gave Lyana's baby to Rheagar's best friend to raise in Essos, ensuring his safety, then threw herself from her tower. There's a reason Ned spent the last year of his life obsessing over his promise to Lyana. He felt guilty for handing him over to someone else, and that someone else died with no word of what happened to the baby. But that baby is about to return to Westeros and take his throne. Young Griff is Lyana and Rheagar's kid.

[@mohirender]

Ser Barry Stan

[@pressxtodoubt6346]

Ser BarriStannis BaraTheon GreyJoy Hill