Ashes of Creation is NOT the Last Hope for MMORPGs

[@oheyspun]

Come be mad on my stream! Live now! ► Oheyspun's Twitch: twitch.tv/oheyspun ► Oheyspun's Discord: discord.gg/HEZHyKV

[@aven3384]

I agree with your message overall, but there are a lot of inaccuracies in the video. The game has always had a massive scope. They haven't really added anything new after the 2017 kickstarter campaign. Unless you want to count swapping to unreal 5 as "feature bloat". I agree that there are several promising MMOs coming out in the future, but a sizable portion of the people following AoC want the particular type of game that AoC is promising to be. AAA mmorpgs have moved away from that sort of game for the past decade, so for these people, AoC is their last hope.

[@ozijak]

Yeah he got a bunch of points incorrect but the scope is huge and easy to miss things unless you're following along all the time. Steven Sharif is very aware of project creep and outside of UE5 this has stayed true to outline at kickstarter, it is hugely ambitious. A lot of his ideas are now being fleshed out which does take a lot of time. I have my concerns but they are doing great in my books. Alpha 2 will be a really good litmus test.

[@Talents.z]

Regarding 3:09 The issue no one seems to bring up is employee count. The reason Ashes seems like it took a long time to ramp up is because in June 2017 when they started "actual production", they had around 15 employees, and not all of those employees would be working directly on the game (e.g. there was a community manager, a customer support person, maybe even Steven and John (finance manager)). They wanted 100 employees by the end of 2018 yet didn't hit 100 employees until the end of 2021/start of 2022. Now they're at 200 employees. After all, why would top talent join Intrepid, a no name studio who could go under at any moment, when they could join Rockstar, or Riot, or Blizzard, or Insomniac, or Santa Monica, or any other household name gaming studios in the same area as Intrepid (Rockstar literally being up the road from Intrepid)? Took them a long time to begin hiring at a good pace.

[@oheyspun]

Really good point here.

[@barrywhite1770]

Also need about that many people to develop these systems. I remember hearing somewhere that a couple guys designed the molten core raid in WOW in 1 week. So with that logic, 50 of these guys could design 25 molten cores in 1 week. That’s a lot of content.

[@oheyspun]

@barrywhite1770 so then are they just being secretive with all the content?

[@barrywhite1770]

@@oheyspun I’m just saying that they have the capacity to create a lot of content and flesh out many systems very quickly with 200 people. Regardless, if they made 300 quests, the monthly update they will just show us 1 to illustrate how the questing system works. So we can never really know how much they have made. Nor do we need to know. We just need to know that the systems are cool, look fun, and then they can map a ton of content into them.

[@DuppyIsCool]

No green screen . How is ashes the last hope when the Minecraft MMORPG has a big expansion coming soon

[@oheyspun]

Fun fact: Audio is recorded with green screen but my lighting was shit and it didn't work. Didn't want to re-record the whole video ;(

[@mattwc93]

Would be great if it turns out well but i just expect another overambitious flop

[@oheyspun]

My thoughts basically. Hope for the best, expect the worst.

[@neugassh3570]

Another?

[@cynthiahembree3957]

@@neugassh3570 Almost every kickstarter MMO has bit off more than they could chew and never released

[@emptywhy]

@@oheyspun If you were unaware of the game being developed, and they dropped a release trailer in say 18 months, you would be excited, (hence why you cover a game on your channel that has showed absolutely nothing) some people aren't made to watch a game in open development, you don't have the patience for it. Game developers over promising and under delivering time and again hasn't helped this, you are just one of many MMO players who has been beaten down and abused and let down, and now everything looks like a scam, apart from games that you haven't seen and therefore can be hyped about (Riot MMO). That's all fine though, you don't need to believe that ashes will turn out great, for it to do so, and you'll enjoy it all the same.

[@oheyspun]

@emptywhy lots of diagnoses here. Either way like I said in the video I am excited to play in Q3.

[@snekkers1609]

Hey, i want to throw some context to topic you talked about 1. You kinda insinuated that ashes is full loot, its not, idk if you meant that or not, just wanted to clarify 2. Alpha 2 in 2019 could never happen, it was unrealistic, ashes is 7 years in development now and first few years they had super small team and were mainly focused on server architecture, alpha 1 happened in 2021 and it was called technical alpha. After a1 in december they moved to ue5 and they basically scrapped most of thier gameplay loops and started to build actual mmo on top of thier architecture built in past years. Reality is that AAA games take years to make, players just dont know that cause devs announce the project when its almost done. You must also remember that adding features is much slower than making content and when the gmae will have its features in place, development will speed up drasticly. The reason why they are showing classes so slowly is bcs they are still trying to figure out how combat works, look that every new class showcase brings some improvement to actual combat. The moment they find the current path, classes will appear much faster. 3. You mention scope creep, but everything currently planned in ashes of creation was always a plan since kickstarter back in 2017, scope is for sure big, but its not getting bigger for now. 4. Alpha 2 for sure wont be content heavy at start, but everything they add to the project will be aded to a2 servers so we will see the game grow as we play. How fast it will grow? I guess we will see.

[@nickchiarenza4670]

Great video and you should do a video speaking about all the mmo’s you just listed because I had no idea about some of them

[@oheyspun]

Haha! I’ll try. Still very little info on many of them. I’ll probably do a Ghost video soon though. A new one that is.

[@mattpresley9809]

As long as there is good steady progress and it's not slow, and the game isn't rushed to released, I am fine with them taking their time to do whatever it is they need done. We've seen what rushed titles present us.

[@IlikeWarGames]

A mmo that has a lot of potential is a game called Anvil Empires, created by Siege Camp. It’s already been in a testing phase for over a year now and is currently having a major 4 day pre alpha test right now.

[@oheyspun]

I’ll have to check that one out I try to play all the mmos

[@lettucekiss7892]

Hopefully it’s good. When it releases in 2040.

[@davidsumpter4933]

For me, it is truly independent. Without forces pushing the design of the game in unwanted directions, the team can actually produce the game they invision. This opportunity will not happen again, so the game first over finances gives many hope for the future for the genre.

[@BigJambu]

GW3 was NOT officially confirmed.

[@MinimalW204]

Is that asmond gold on the miniature 😂?

[@oheyspun]

Ashes character creator. (Yes.)

Its not even a hope, we have 5 upcoming AAA mmo's from big studios 1- Riot MMO 2- LotR MMO by Amazon 3- Zenimax upcoming MMO 4- Playable worlds 5- Matter (code name project MMO by Bungie) 6- Guild Wars 3 7- Warhammer MMO 8- Star Citizen AND MORE

[@oheyspun]

Don't forget Guild Wars 3 too!

[@TheRealClaylex]

@@oheyspun Yeah! Crazy this was a thing cause I believe someone in NCSoft was talking about it

[@cynthiahembree3957]

Project Matter was unfortunately cancelled earlier this year. It’s been cancelled before though so who knows it could come back

[@neugassh3570]

:Ddd

[@thedaeron3877]

RIOT mmo is dead they already announce it, lotr its AMAZON so it's already a flop, .... your list bad AF ... there is nothing good on it lollll

[@danbee415]

That might sound like a big list, but the benefit is they already have most MMOs estabishing most of it. They know what works and what doesn't just by playing the games when they were live. 5:00 just looks like GW2 world pvp sieges which is already done. That said, it was still very enjoyable. Not that hard to implement when its already been mapped out before.

[@boredfangerrude8759]

Scoap bloat is also called Feature Creep.

[@Ides385]

You probably wont see a much content when Alpha 2 releases. I'm expecting them to test core systems to start. I wouldn't be suprised to only see the riverlands at first, with more biomes soon released if it goes smooth.

[@oheyspun]

Yeah, from what I have seen and heard from the team it looks like they are gonna start small and keep adding to it. They will even keep it up persistently after beta starts.

[@snekkers1609]

from what steven said over the years, we expect riverlands and desert as biomes 100% biomes at start, and some biomes around that are "maybe"

[@riverlynnxo]

Yea those big mmos will take forever but I am looking forward to Brighter Shores!

[@oheyspun]

Same!!

[@LageAfonso]

Also, lets not talk about the "server side" things, like server performance, channels, anti-cheat, exploits, etc. I hope AoC will be good, but I still have my doubts.

[@BadCuzDad]

Brave man with such a balanced and reasonable take. Cue the white knights!

[@oheyspun]

lmao you have no idea….

[@BadCuzDad]

@@oheyspun I have some idea...don't take the bait

[@EvansTurin]

My fear is that it will take so long to release that UE6 will come out and will halt it even longer to migrate to the new engine and so on....

[@sgonged]

Why does it take so long to make an MMO? There are basic core foundation expectations every gamer looks for: A story of good vs. evil with main characters on each side Lore about the people fighting evil Diverse environments like snow, desert, jungle, woods, and caves Open lands with various quests, inns, crafting items, armor types with stats, weapons with stats, and PvP Character types such as mage, healer, warrior, and thief, each with 4 abilities that can be slightly customized and an ultimate ability Why is this so hard and why does it take years to complete?

[@stickyrubb]

What do you mean by 'it might be a very short alpha'? They've already said it's going to be a long one, and the community is under the assumption that Alpha 2 will take at *least* a year.

[@oheyspun]

Alpha 2 will persist into the betas. I meant it will be content short. It’s game dev terminology. Maybe it was confusing.

[@stickyrubb]

@@oheyspun Ah okay, I see what you mean then. They've said though, and the wiki states, that most systems will go online in Alpha 2, so I'm expecting a lot of stuff to do, especially in the later stages of A2. But maybe I'm coped out ;)

[@jonathanhughes8679]

Well nodes also get destroyed brought back and raised up differently. Not all of this is going be in the game at release but it is not truly 64 classes. I think that seeing how alpha 2 does should be a lot but not nearly all. If it goes well then I can see beta 1 Lasting 4-6 months and beta 2 at the end of 25 and beta 2 is basically last pass.

[@LimpRichard]

Riot chased out all of their talent. Just count that as a loss.

[@MyN0N4M3]

Only thing I have some hope for is GW3, because at least these guys have done some solid work before. But it probably wont relase for another 5+ years.

[@Rhaine1337]

Better hope that aoc will be good. A good Competition to the big developer will help them to move their butts. Btw Riot MMO is back to the scrapbord. So they will also taking their time and TBH there isnt any real Goal Bloat ok they increased the mapsize, but also the skaling itself.

[@boredfangerrude8759]

Ashes will not appeal to enough people long term because it's got features like ooen world PVP.

[@jk480p]

MMOs have big starts but quickly dwindle because modern MMOs ARE built in mind to please the investors which is usually just quick bucks with no long term plans except to milk whales. This is a gaming industry problem that execs that don’t play games fund games because they are cash grabs. This being said, the redeeming hope and difference with AOC is the owner is funding the game and hates modern gaming practices and plans to have a subscription with only cosmetics for sale. IF a game is actually good, cares about its population, then it will keep players long term and nodes will work. The real issue is everyone is jaded by modern gaming practices because, as stated, it’s infiltrated with pure greed vs loving devs crafting a great game that also happens to make them money from a good product. The mass majority of games are junk cars they are trying to sell you with a nice looking exterior but ruined underneath the hood. THAT is the real issue today.

[@boredfangerrude8759]

Having cosmetics for sale on it's own is an issue but adding a subscription to that or vice versa is a BIG red flag.

[@jack-ye1zj]

Whens WoW 2 tho?

[@oheyspun]

Never lmao

[@MyN0N4M3]

If they ever do it, they wont be as astupid as NCSoft and only drop the announcement when it is less than a year away. Because no one would buy their last WoW xpac otherwise. Same thing will happen to GW2 now, motivation to do or investr anything longterm into GW2 is way down when you know that the next title is already on its way.

[@Ax-xN]

Even if it comes out at 2050 which it will, it’s a scam and will be disappointing they aren’t gonna be delivering half the things guaranteed

[@SeijinOficial]

I hope the game will be ready by 2027 at the latest.

[@oheyspun]

I hope so too! They gotta pick up the pace though.

[@veil1792]

*Everyone is looking to Ashes, because it's coming out before all the other games you mentioned.*

[@Skindred727]

no it's not

[@isaiascandido8497]

Sounds like a scam to me

[@10strahinja]

Bro you and we don't know anything about a state of development off the others MMO's so it's stupid to even talk about them..

[@Skindred727]

Argument from ignorance fallacy.

[@KachZz]

Yeah it's a shame if something would happen to Riot mmo ha😅

[@DejvidR6]

u thing they gonna show everything before we can play the game? 5% of the map no shit no point in showing more soo far they said some time ago that most zones on first island are finished they just need to add content to it.. seems like nothing but hate comming from this video :)

[@snekkers1609]

i wouldnt say hate, just not much thought and not enough research done before making the vid

[@Skindred727]

its a niche game

[@Vujkan]

Aoc is the last hope bcs of complex system and also pledge as anti p2win mmorpg and maded around of community!Gw 3 if be 50% of what is gw2 will be success 100%!there is alot of mmorpg which coming out in the next 2-5 years,but i think only aoc will be 100% success!Riot mmo is start again from 0 i mean reset project,lotro is huge name,but amazon made game 😂,AA 2 will be heavy p2win and dead game in 1-2 years,zenimax mmo still dont know anything!

[@boredfangerrude8759]

We'll have to see how it handles expansions before we can say for sure it's not P2W.

[@VyrilGaming]

Homie, this is a really disingenuous video. You claim scope bloat. The whole list you rattled off was on the kickstarter page. So no additional bloat has occurred. This was what you backed on kickstarter. You should be happy they want to complete the list you bought into. Also you seem to misunderstand the progress, the development cycle, and how the team grew over the last 7 years. Thirdly AoC being the last hope for MMOs is because all the other games you suggest coming out have not told you p2w won't be a part of the monetization. AoC is truly trying to change the genre back into a non-p2w model. Which is the last hope for that to happen in the MMO genre and prove successful for MORE games to take that stance on gameplay first. Now if you want to be educated on AoC and MMOs let me know.

[@oheyspun]

1. A feature list does not always equal scope. Each of these features has a list of sub-features, that have been described and grown upon over the last 7 years. This is where the bloat is occurring. 2. I do understand how the team has grown, I understand how certain things have been scrapped. I am not new to game-dev, I do have a reasonable perspective on the whole thing. I am quite hopeful for the game, though you seem to have ignored those points. 3. FOMO cosmetics, based on concept art that has not been shown in game (more bloat btw) is not changing the industry, but you are welcome to believe what you want. Fortunately Intrepid is not attempting to reinvent the wheel here, which is a good thing. I'll pass on your *version* of an education. I like to do my own thinking instead of blindly believing a studio. But if it makes you happy to put all your eggs in one basket more power to you. I will keep enjoying the games I am playing and looking forward to the future MMO's as well (including Ashes) without your hard headed tribalism.

[@steelcitykings28]

@@oheyspunintrepid studios has been telling people for years not to buy into closed alpha 2 and the cosmetics unless you’re just genuinely looking to support the studio. I find it rather disgusting seeing people like you trying to play it off like they’re some typical company selling packs with empty promises. As if they’re pulling a new world and a bunch of absurd bullshit. What I find truly disgusting is consistently finding people like you that are willing to pretend like the amount of time it has taken to get as far as it has is bad and points towards a “fake release” and a bunch of absurd claims. But hey you say a lot about yourself when you start trying to connect the alpha packs with FOMO. 🤣🤣🤣

[@steelcitykings28]

@@oheyspuncompletely ignored the fact that covid hit intrepid hard and effected the development

[@boredfangerrude8759]

We will see about P2W when expansions come out. Too often new, more powerful classes come out in expansions or new abilities for existing classes are released in an expansion that makes the expansions necessary to be at full power with your class. If that happens, Ashes is no different than the MMORPGs you criticize for being P2W.

[@steelcitykings28]

@@boredfangerrude8759 I doubt they’re going to release something like new classes when 64 different subclasses are already going to exist 💀😂

[@falkath]

do you even follow the game development ? nothing you say makes sense

[@Skindred727]

the part where he said its not the last hope made sense

[@ifeawosika966]

Sound like a hater. Just wait and see what they do

[@oheyspun]

I’ve been waiting for 7 years and will continue to wait. 😎

[@Skindred727]

'Ashes is not the last hope' = HATER

[@oheyspun]

@@Skindred727 "has been following game since kickstarter 7 years ago, said multiple times he is excited for Ashes just wanted to point out a few areas of concern" = HATER Don't we just love the internet?

[@XTGAMEZ009]

@@oheyspun Well at least they have die hard fans ready to cope no matter what.. XD