Ashes of Creation Is Changing How We Play MMOs

[@Narc]

😡😡Ren'kai females when!?!? 😡😡 Come check out the stream for more discussions like this: www.twitch.tv/Narciverse

[@SpyroTheReptar]

I can never catch you online 😢

[@andyh4747]

what is actually good about the fighter's mana regain skill is that it can't be used excessively in pvp, but can in pve. Quite clever really. So skills cannot be massively spammed throughout pvp but they can in pve.

[@andyh4747]

Bard needs to be played actively with combos and synergies, it's not going to be a buffer bot. But no doubt bard will improve mana issues.

[@ohihassan693]

I think this mana/energy system of resource for use of skill can be revamped for better. How? I think for all class there should be two kind of resources for skill use and not just mana(don't know what to call the other one, energy may be?). And based on what kind of skill is being used, one of these two resources is spent. If it's a skill that creates things out of nothing like mage making fire balls, ice etc or fighter using skill that create spikes or some weapon for striking, then they will all spent their mana. A archer using a skill that creates extra arrows out of nothing or shoots a bird like arrow etc or a rogue using invisibility can come under this use of mana too. In short anything non physical or anything that is even beyond theoretical physical capabilities. But when they use any physical act or skill, no matter how extraordinary it is like jumping very high or dashing super fast all use the other bar, the energy bar or stamina bar. Like a warrior spinning, dashing , jumping skills etc, or a mage using any non magic skills like normal jumping, sprinting(normal running or walking excluded), using their two handed magic weapon(forgot what's it called, it's not the wand though, the big stick like thing like what Gandalf had) to use let's say a bash skill where they directly strike with it in close combat. In short all non magic skills use energy or stamina resource no matter what class. This can easily solve more issues with the different classes. It could even influence where people spent their skill point into. Those who use mostly magic or non physical skill will use skill points to increase mana and mana regen and those with mostly physical and non magic skill will spent points on energy and energy regen. Of course along with other resources like the "momentum" in case of fighter is there with these two but this 3rd resources varies with class mechanism of different class and some class may even not have this.

[@ohihassan693]

Also the above idea i put can even simplify and make sense crossing different arc types.

[@VyrilGaming]

I'm good with all classes use mana. No need to change it. Bard requirement, is the same as a Cleric requirement.

[@bamjo9]

which are both bad requirements. IMHO players should be independent. No potions required, no baby sitter requirements. You just are good or you are got. Then you can have supports roles such as Cleric to heal you (i.e. lower the skill ceiling requirement) or buff you (i.e. bard: more power, more attack speed, cooldown reductions, etc.), and foods and drinks to buff you. But all these things should not be a requirement to play the game, they should be an improvement

[@TheCoolWhipz]

@vyrilgaming yeah I’m not sure why everyone shouldn’t have to play around it. Like it’s not unique to a fighter cleric in the woods. A ranger and rogue not having mana also feels bad. Or a mage and tank. Like getting ganked and not using your resources correctly so you don’t have mana to win isn’t unique or melee classes

[@n00bDadd3]

I agree Vyril. It make sense to me everyone would have mana, but perhaps different amounts or rate of return. I also like your simplistic point that needing a bard would be no different than a healer. I hope the Bard requires active play to buff rather than purely passive and auto follow.

[@Gooberfestival]

Think about itemization as well. If all classes use mana, it means gear can have mana bonuses without it being useless

[@laggmonstret]

But that also means u share loot with just about anyone!

[@Gooberfestival]

@@laggmonstret with all weapons being viable for all classes, they already dedicated themselves to the old WoW Hunter loot problem, so I don't see an issue there myself.

[@Dagnar1478]

​@@Gooberfestival all weapons are USABLE by every class but there never was any intention of all being viable. That question has been brought up multiple times in streams and they always respond with "certain class abilities will have weapon requirements" such as tank needing shield or ranger using bow.

[@purplesnek4069]

I'm Cool with Each Claass having Mana(Etc) Mechanic on top of their Class specific mechanic. These attacks are Clearly otherworld- Infused with magical power, You need energy to Access this Strength. Managing Health/Mana+Class Resource. Is not too much to handle, One is gained in combat while the other is lost during combat. Opens up the roll of Mana Batteries for extended fights as well as maybe a class that that specialized in "battery of mana" If you get what I mean.(Mana Drain) But Of course this is like... Pre alpha still lol. (Also Maybe It Was Irrelevant Here But Sitting Down/Resting Regens Your Mana And HP In Current Version)

[@joshanonline]

100%! It makes absolutely no sense to use magical skills without consuming some kind of energy. GW2 has this immersion-breaking aspect. As well, as new world. NW was worse lol cuz only the melee classes used OP skills like a rift in Spacetime without using any resource. Managimg resources is immersive and adds a layer of gameplay.

[@-Bleriot-]

totally agree. also resting reg mana and hp full around 1min. Managing your own resources make them have value and weight. i dont like the turn off-brain spam non sense.

[@kreenbopulusmichael7205]

I dont like it, its just ruins the fantasy for me. if every class has mana then everyones a wizard with a different looking staff. its the reason why ESO was ruined for me, magic is needed in most builds no matter what the fantasy youre going for

[@laggmonstret]

@@joshanonline it's so horrible to use mana as a resource for a warrior/fighter. If I want to use that I just put on a dress and a wizard hat! I prefer energy... or RAGE! :D

[@laggmonstret]

@@kreenbopulusmichael7205 And this is why I think this game might not be anything for me at all. Because I am not so sure that I like everyone be a hybrid class. I just want a good old classic MMO but in a new world with a deep story and modern graphics. How successful has all those been that tried too hard to invent something new? ;)

[@FairPlay012]

You should look into Lineage 2 mana system (pre free to play). There were 2 specific classes for buffing and mana recharge. Feels very familiar to what is AoC going for.

[@whoaskedyoutolookatthis]

Yup. Mana management was a big deal in Lineage 2. As a dagger you had to maximize your damage before you ran out of mana all the time.

[@CHIM3RA.]

Is that a good thing? And how is it better?

[@andyh4747]

​@CHIM3RA. It prevented you running around spamming skills and annihilating anything. If you had certain buffs/support you could go longer, but ultimately it prevented you spamming your high damage skills in pve. Same with images, though. It's mainly a mechanism to encourage social play.

[@CHIM3RA.]

​@@andyh4747 Oh ok I get it now. Thanks 🙂

[@andyh4747]

@@CHIM3RA. to add, in L2, as a melee you would make a melee party, and skills weren't really used, they were for pvp. You would use your basic melee and have buffs that would increase critical rate, crit damage and attack speed. Skills were only really used for pvp. I'd imagine AoC will slightly move away from this, but your skill rotation will include basic attacks and conserving mana for the aoe opportunities. Aoe with most melee classes in l2 was not a thing. Despite having the odd Aoe skill, they were never used. L2 was a great game but so half baked in so many ways.

[@AndrewSilva-tq3gc]

I think mana is a great concept, will strengthen the party focus. Plus the Fighter and Cleric both have mana regen abilities that as we have seen in both of their own videos work very well. So that plus a bard, you'll be fine. And if you oom after a big pull of adds and have to sit to regen mana, sounds better to me than being able to just keep chain pulling. Mana adds Strategy to group comp, plus we will have support pillars in a multitude of ways. I agree we need to test, but we should be excited about this.

[@UruseiYatsu]

If you look deeper into Lineage 2 before FTP, you can find clues to mana management and potion usage mechanics. I recommend it since it is a big inspiration for Steven.

[@kayceesandiego]

My first MMORPG was "Dark Age of Camelot". Fighters had an Endurance bar that allowed them to execute special attacks that generated agro and additional damage. They could attack without endurance but did less damage. Magic users had a Mana bar that limited their spell casting. The Bard class had the ability to increase either Endurance or Mana generation (not both). IMHO it worked out well. You would always go out with a group that included a Tank, a healer, a DPS caster, and a bard. It seems that this is what AOC is trying to bring back... an MMORPG that requires group play. That said, if both casters and fighters use Mana, than the bard class would be beneficial to both. I played a bard in DAoC and loved it, but it had many negatives. And Bard bots became a thing. Bard bots would not work if the Bard buffs required active play, for example, a special combo attack triggers a 30 second group buff. Hopefully this has all been thought out.

[@pix00l]

omg I found an OG DAoC player!!! Which server did you play on bro? I'm from Excalibur Hibernia :D

[@kayceesandiego]

@@pix00l LOL, it was so long ago I dont remember the server, but I did play Hibernia (Bard). I played in the guild Colonial Marines as Kenso. I am really excited to play a Bard again, hopefully in a game where they aren't as easy to kill

[@davidhindrichs1365]

In daoc, mana Buffs were given by Mentalist (hib), sorc (alb) and healer (mid)? Or got the three "song classes" bard, minstrel and skalled a mana song later on?

[@CuriousityFTW]

Me, playing Maplestory in current year, where most warriors use mana. xD But, seriously, mana is just a resource, and resources are only bothersome to deal with as long as you can't replenish them. So I'd imagine artisans would come into play here. Whether that would entail chefs boosting mana bars, alchemists providing mana replenishment via potions, or armor crafters making equipment that provide mana regen, etc.

[@Raviis]

Exactly, it opens the door for so many other gameplay loops to increase mana and its regeneration. Stupid WoW brains going "me warrior, me smash alone with no limitation, me mad rawr" ... STFU and go play WoW

[@bambino1018]

That moment you mentioned in organised raids regarding potion drinking at critical moments sounds like heaven to me. It'll be cool asf to be in there rather than just spamming potions or using auto-potions.

[@TinyGremolin]

Just reminds me of playing a good ARPG (PoE, D2, etc). Nothing wrong with having a mana bar for everyone. It only matters how they utilize the resource.

[@thevannmann]

Same with Dota, all heroes have mana but not all of them use as much. Some abilities don’t cost mana, some even use health instead. Makes it easier to balance.

[@laggmonstret]

Nope just nope

[@HalIOfFamer]

​@@laggmonstretur wrong. Stop noping the correct people.

[@laggmonstret]

@@HalIOfFamer Nope, stop correct the wrong people.

[@jk480p]

I think mana regen should be optional talent buffs/weapon buffs/gear enchants and also some abilities that are weaker in each class should be a mana regen either solo or group. In this way if you don’t want to rely on support or others for mana you can do so at the expense of taking other talent points/weapons/gear enchants. In this way the mana supports are appreciated, but not a necessity. Also, this will keep support from being expected to slot join as mana regenerators. Players can then avoid having to use their own mana regenerators weaker attacks/abilities and can focus on better abilities to maximize themselves with a mana supporter in their group, but it isn’t a must. Win-win.

[@5H4D3]

I gotta say, having a mana bar and long cooldowns instead of energy and needing to manage that for a Rogue will feel wrong.

[@RTS-v5f]

They should just go ahead and use Stamina for all physical actions. Give the physical combat archetypes a boost to Stamina pool and allow them to invest into an even bigger pool and improved Stamina regeneration rate. If a melee archetype has a magic using sub-class, they still use mana for the magic, but they have a smaller pool and regeneration rate than a Magic archetype character.

[@puddingsimon2626]

Just like eso has it, you put points into stamina and your stamina pool goes up, plus its regeneration aswell as the damage of all physical abilities and actions, in ESO every physical damage type sails also with how much stamina you have, physical damage, poison damage and disease damage.

[@apollyon23456]

Sooo make a split system that works the exact same, while Penalizing the intended augmenting of classes, got it. Stamina is not necessary, and make balance issues in multiplayer games.

[@myaps1859]

Some of the Fighter skills should cost 0 Mana, especially the ones that are just beefed up sword swings. The skills that are clearly "supernatural" should cost some mana though.

[@bdute7890]

Nobody wants the reason for their death to be that they ran out of mana.

[@u5urpator691]

I'm torn a bit in regards to mana: - Firstly, I'm completely on board with the all or nothing mentality for mana. Either all classes get it or none. All for balancing sake. - Secondly, I don't know whether having to balance around mana replenishing rates is a good thing or not. It can make classes more relevant, yes, but it also adds another layer to balancing, which of course makes it a more complex problem. The more the team of Intrepid adds in terms of mechanics to the game, the harder their claim of "no meta" will get to fullfill. - Not that I believe there won't be a meta. There 100% will be.

[@hollinkarelja7564]

in Everquest there were several ways to "mana battery" and bard was one of them but not the only one. in addition to bard an enchanter could cast Clarity which increased mana regen, I also think Shamans if i remember correctly had a smaller but still useful mana regen spell. I think Ashes should maybe think about giving mana regen spells to more than 1 class in order to diversify the "support" role to many classes to give usefulness to some of the more unique classes.

[@edwinvermeulen8187]

That would be accomplished by choosing Bard as your secondary archtype?

[@Dagnar1478]

The mage had an ability called "gift of the magi" in alpha 1 that restored mana to multiple party members, but I think they got rid of it in the a2 preview.

[@MelFright]

IMO I would make Momentum a melee's primary resource for skills. Some skills would generate it and other spend it. Almost like rage in WoW. Stay with me. If you choose to augment your fighter with a spellcasting class, you should have additional mana requirement for the skill and mana bar appearing below momentum. So your Blitz generates momentum now, but you have spend X amount of mana because you augmented it with mage archetype. A give and take mechanics. Pure melee classes shouldn't have mana requirements at all. Like Battle Master (fighter/fighter) for example.

[@einer1314]

Bards in EQ were so valuable. Not only could they give mana to casters, but also give the party huge resist buffs. They could also mez/charm and do other things, but the mana regen and resists really helped in raids. On a side note, Necromancers could also transfer mana to other casters.

[@Medjayon]

Farming your own stream for youtube content is exactly what I would expect from a bald guy. Keep up the good work. You are my only hopium dealer.

[@nbriles]

Its very silly to act like this will be the first MMO where a fighter has mana lol

[@Angron11]

I'm against some classes having mana as their primary resource, because it takes away from their class fantasy. Grit for tanks, fury for offensive warriors, subtlety or combo points for rogues.

[@BluishGnome]

The Valheim song starts playing in my head the moment I see a narc video in my feed now

[@barrywhite1770]

Mana makes sense. You think any normal fighter can fly in the air and charge and stuff? These are super powers. Your basic attack doesn’t need mana. That’s still the bread and butter of your dps.

[@acdc777]

i feel like "stamina" resource would fit fighters better

[@barrywhite1770]

@@acdc777 it’s their world. I don’t know how much “stamina” it takes for the fighter to fly 40 yards in the air and slam down, but I’ve never seen a human do that.

[@CHIM3RA.]

Exactly, so many MMO players are brainless with just wanting to label it stamina lmao. I always thought of it like how in Naruto, Tsunade would use Chakra to do these enhanced physical attacks it wasn't only used for flashy Jutsu abilities.

[@cullenami]

Mana battery being their purpose? I'm getting flashbacks of playing resto druid and getting in trouble for using innervate on myself.

[@NerdyOutdoors]

10 years. This game isn't changing anything other than the people in charge pocket books 🤣

[@kormionaari4799]

The amount of mental gymnastics to justify mana for warriors in this vid is quite something. There's a reason so many games, MMO or not, have forfeited the idea of Mana on Warriors/ Rogues, etc.. It doesn't make much sense. If gearing or "mana batteries" is the issue, just have them replenish any resource based on % instead of fixed numbers. So replenishing 15% of resource has the same impact on both casters and non-casters. It's lazy to not think of an alternative resource for Warriors/ Rogues/ etc., nothing else.

[@notdaniel2263]

I think something we aren't really considering is the fact that we shouldn't be using skills so often like Steven is. Another thing is that support classes could run hard as their secondary archetype which should augment them to have some of the features bard has. So that warrior cleric duo could work after getting the second archetype

[@bubbadumps3747]

Not banning boxing makes zero sense, The only reason to let people box in ashes is profit. Its inherantly against the spirit of the game

[@Rhaine1337]

Seeing the abilities like this huge jumps, mana makes sense. At least from a lore perspectiv. I think a potion shouldnt have any coldown but it should come with a negative effect when overused, like Medicine.

[@willfullyinformed]

No cool down? This isn't a Korean/Asian game. We don't want potions as the core gameplay loop. Spamming potions and reliant on potions for gameplay is not a good design. There's a reason this isn't popular in NA, it's because it's tedious and shallow, it also takes away from the sense of your character being strong (reliant on potion spam) adds an entire other resource to manage, and demeans the balance and skill of the player. It's an extremely lazy way to design a game around problems. Potions should be nothing more than a rare "Oh shi* button", or for specific buffs for specific encounters.

[@Rhaine1337]

@@willfullyinformed you can't spam potions if you get intoxicated by them and I think on a real hard punishment. 😉

[@sladnam7480]

Having the bard strictly be a mana battery sounds really boring and not fun to play. If they could create small gameplay loops for bard spells (a good example is the flute from Legend of Zelda where you have to put in the button key presses to play music) that would make the bard less boring to play.

[@GenXOG]

Dark Age of Camelot had multi boxing as well, with the cleric. Cleric you could spec heals or buffs.. to get max buffs you’d have an alt account that would be fully spec’d in buffs and not even be in the party

[@rainel.6807]

Hopely buffs won't last too long so buffer needs to be active..

[@willfullyinformed]

I think the energy idea for melee, etc., makes sense. I'm okay with mana for mana-type classes. Bard, mage, etc., giving nice mana regen buffs/abilities is great, but none of the classes should be reliant on each other for normal leveling gameplay outside of dungeons/bosses/open-world-group content. I'm all for social interactions, but most people will want to solo level at a minimum, with occasional needs/optional content that needs to be completed by interacting with people leveling along the way. When it comes to fighters/rogues, and general players, they don't rely on someone/potions to let them play in a fluid/actiony way. If we force an extremely dependent experience on people, for example, everyone has to have a pocket Bard or friend to play with to actually enjoy combat without tons of down sides, then the game won't last long. Also, Steve on Multi-boxing - if players die, lose time spent and loot to multi-boxers, this will also kill the game; it's immersion breaking and toxic for others.

[@caioqueirozZ7]

Thank you Narc editor, you were very helpful. KEEP IT UP NARC !!

[@ohihassan693]

I think this mana/energy system of resource for use of skill can be revamped for better. How? I think for all class there should be two kind of resources for skill use and not just mana(don't know what to call the other one, energy may be?). And based on what kind of skill is being used, one of these two resources is spent. If it's a skill that creates things out of nothing like mage making fire balls, ice etc or fighter using skill that create spikes or some weapon for striking, then they will all spent their mana. A archer using a skill that creates extra arrows out of nothing or shoots a bird like arrow etc or a rogue using invisibility can come under this use of mana too. In short anything non physical or anything that is even beyond theoretical physical capabilities. But when they use any physical act or skill, no matter how extraordinary it is like jumping very high or dashing super fast all use the other bar, the energy bar or stamina bar. Like a warrior spinning, dashing , jumping skills etc, or a mage using any non magic skills like normal jumping, sprinting(normal running or walking excluded), using their two handed magic weapon(forgot what's it called, it's not the wand though, the big stick like thing like what Gandalf had) to use let's say a bash skill where they directly strike with it in close combat. In short all non magic skills use energy or stamina resource no matter what class. This can easily solve more issues with the different classes. It could even influence where people spent their skill point into. Those who use mostly magic or non physical skill will use skill points to increase mana and mana regen and those with mostly physical and non magic skill will spent points on energy and energy regen. Of course along with other resources like the "momentum" in case of fighter is there with these two but this 3rd resources varies with class mechanism of different class and some class may even not have this.

[@hollinkarelja7564]

another form was meditation, and with a horse you were considered always sitting and so always regen ing mana faster which made horses very valuable

[@TheOriginalDerbs]

Something we haven't seen yet is food buffs. This could fill the gap of not having a bard.

[@nope1257]

why does this game feel like a mobile mmorpg? The Effects just dont feel like they are in the world but rather just a layer on your screen. Especially those lightning animations they are just a 240p lightning.png on your screen

[@pix00l]

The bard mana battery is definitely from Dark Age of Camelot and that shit works very well especially in group open world pvp but the difference is in DAoC the bard replenishes endurance which is used for sprinting and skill moves by using his drum and his lute is for replenishing mana on down time for spell casters it would be huge if they could do the same thing as DAoC 😁 I really think this would make Bard a very unique class that is important to a group

[@humbleeagle1736]

When everyone uses mana, you have have abilities like mana burn. A favorite ability in WC3.

[@chaoko954]

Totally like the idea of a bard as a true support that part of their skill set involves "Healing the mana bar". I've not personally played a game with a support class that was that required for team fights. Seems cool. I just hope it dosen't take away from the solo grind experience. Potions at the Highest tier should be an "Oh Shit" button with a long cool down. Lower tiers can be consumed faster, but still shouldn't be spam-able or required.

[@samblanton9010]

I’d like 1-2 minutes cooldown for potions. Having the option to resupply on mana in an instant is very good, but needing to be very tactical about it due to long cooldown keeps bards and clerics relevant

[@mrcreed6874]

I still wonder how much impact gear will have in this regard, especially for meele classes. It has been said time and time again that basic weapon attacks are supposed to be used deliberately. So it would make sense to me to see options to have on-hit mana regen as well as gear that improves our ability to regen mana without a battery - turning us from burst machines into sustain machines. This would also increase the need for us to have different sets of armor, one for our small groups adventuring along and one when we have supports backing us up allowing us to go all out like Steven does with the help of commands instantly refreshing him.

[@Michael_G980]

Easy fix and incentivizes basic attack use. Have a stacking mana regen buff that procs only from basic attacks and boosts mana regen for the fighter, and possibly other melee classes, and the more stacks of the buff, up to a certain max stack size, you can get the better the mana regen. Mana regen with just 1 buff is minor but is noticeably significant with max stack but the buff duration/stack decay is fast so you need to mix in basic attacks with your normal abilities. The Bard can then further augment that buff to enhances it further either by duration of the buff or strength of the buff. Bards wont be absolutely necessary but will definitely be good to have around.

[@Ides385]

I think there will be plenty of sustain options once classes, augments and gear are fleshed out. We already see the blood fusion skill in the base archtype along with mana potions. His sustain looked a lot better when he started using blood fusion. Just as long as you are strickly weaker self sustaining versus having a bard in group.

[@edwinvermeulen8187]

The entire video is about an unproven conjecture that the primary role of a bard is beeing a mana battery. However bard has not been revealed yet. In case of the fighter they actually have mana regenerating abilities, and there is also the itemization options to lessen any mana problems. Eg, there could be physical weapons that restore mana on hit, you have consumables, you have buffs, and ofcourse mana itemization, next to the abilities. Even if Bard's primary role is "Healing mana" what happens to classes if they take bard as a secondary archtype, will there augments cause you to regain mana or in case of example the warcry give a limited amount back to entire party/raid? There are 4 major unknowns for this theorycrafting 1) What is the role of the bard? 2) What benefits does a bard secondary archtype give? 3) How can gear and consumables mitigate mana problems in a relevant manner? 4) If you have multiple different primary resources how do you guarantee that each class can use a certain weapons or armor, how can you prevent redundancies in item stat bonus that suddenly have to give an equivallent of multiple primary resources? Lastly i want to emphasis that Universal resources (Life, Mana, Stamina) are key ingredients in balancing all classes. In many MMO's (eg World of Warcraft) that use different primary resources, Balance is extremely difficult. In the WoW example Rogues and Ferals can dump their energy for huge bursts, and the regen of it can also be used to outlast most of the casters, They are extremely potent on extreme short and long fights. Rage and Focus are similar, although they need a bit of time to build up. This means that in short fights (every groups focus) they will eventually outscale everything, and in the same manner outscale everyone in extremely long fights. However with mana your living on "borrowed time" How well are you able to convert your mana into damage, control, healing. If i use gap closers that cost 3x more mana then a distance creator then i'll either have to have 3x as much mana, or 3x as much burst then the one i'm closing in on. And thats a good thing. If i build a character for longlevity then i don't expect it to be the highest burst or dps, but i do expect it to be able to survive long enough that my lower burst or dps has a fair chance of winning. Allowing a class to have a different resource also imposes another problem Itemization. What if eg: i build a cleric to use a greatsword. I focus on melee attacks, i take fighter as my secondary archtype to convert my abilities to physical damage and be able to make great use of said greatsword. But then all of my "bis" greatsword has this nasty +10 Rage after each strike, wich is completly useless. If everyone uses the same primary resources, that greatsword would have +10 mana after each strike, suddenly makeing it good for all classes that focus on physical damage In short, untill we know the complete package of the classes, archtype options and itemization options, i think its best to keep universal primary resources (Mana and Stamina)

[@Ragecon87]

I honestly think mana makes sense as you think of it as they are imbuing their attacks/body with magical power to enhance the attacks

[@dzln]

Mana regenerate by weapon attack hit or mana regenerate by hit or proc talent in weapon skill tree. Use second resource will regenerate mana including second resource fading after leave combat. Mana regenerate by equipments.

[@irishijo1]

I think a support class would be nice, buffing and giving players higher resource generation, so long as they are also able to contibute in other meaningful ways. I also feel like there should be some potions that serve as a little sustain, like a Mana Regen buff pot that gives you more than your instant Mana pot, but over a much longer time. That way smaller groups, or higher end activities that require more APM, dont run into the rut of needing specific class combinations to just play the game.

[@nicksosicc]

"Ashes of Creation Is Changing How We Play MMOs" By not playing anything at all.

[@XeroTheLegend]

Although the issue is not very prevalent in BDO, BDO's solution to mana is to have auto-attacks refill mana. What if there is a low-level passive on the weapon skill tree that gives back flat mana.

[@SacredSilence95]

It's cool if they establish mana as a resource that every creature has, from an immersion stand point. It is also cool imo that you can't fight forever if you have enough hp regeneration, I don't like when fights are too hard to end. I also have a weird desire, it would be cool to be that if your mana goes to 0 you get weakened, flat% more damage taken and slowed, so that you are here ready to be executed, as if your mana was effectively your life force

[@paulmasters8666]

I'm so done with developers creating "challenging" gameplay through resource management especially if it can only be done effectively with a "support" class, can we please move past this archaic system that's just not fun and never was, two things that you must get down for a successful game in my opinion combat needs to be fun and engaging and traversing the world also, 2 examples I would give for the best I've played so far would be BDO for combat and GW2 for mounts and map traversal.

[@ihankestrel7708]

I like the mana idea. If they keep it, I would love to see mana regen gear. So that you can have your hunting gear separate from your other gear.

[@rext3404]

Having cool downs AND a skill resource pool to me should be fine. It's not the first game to do it. Though if I had to pick one or the other, I would rather have a cool down but no mana/stamina pool to deal with. I'm hoping there are augments or set pieces that allow you to build for resource management. If a bard can help with resource management, that would be cool, and the Ashes team do want this to be a multi-player game, not a solo one.

[@ManthaaHD]

if a caster is out of mana he exhausted his resources for casting spells. if youre exhausted from physical ativities youre out of stamina so a warriors resource should be stamina. maybe even a dual resource class like the demon hunter in d3 but with adrenaline since you can overcome your exhaustion sometimes in dire situations.

[@Langharig_Tuig]

A pro and con not mentioned yet (I think): First the con. Maybe slightly not in the same realm, but does anyone remember Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition? Among other things it turned every class in a spellcaster. Swinging your sword in a certain way was now a spell etc. It was greatly dislike... For the sole reason that making their actions all be spells made them feel worse. Similairly having mana as a fighter in a videogame is just not feeling entirely right; we do be weird like that. However! It could open up a very exciting change; because indeed there's a lot of reskins, rage being the most often used for fighters. You could also do include [name of universal resource] and have classes have different ways of gaining that. Could even use it to have fighters have less cooldowns on most of their spells, but higher mana costs, giving them more choice. Just spam same ability? Cast a few big swings and kite for a moment while recovering?

[@Tilley53]

I think potions work either way. The way Narc is explaining it, potions would essentially be massive resource gain with long cooldowns as a way to turn the tide in an oh shit moment. The only difference is shorter cooldown, but also smaller resource gain essentially evens out the difference between his version and the current version in AOC

[@Butch808]

Narc as a raid leader.. you gotta be kidding me.

[@emikochan13]

I think before wow everyone had mana

[@jefferyespinoza1591]

I'm going into cryogenic sleep until the game is out. I can't wait for the release date.

[@SocialFutility]

I still need to see how this feels before giving my opinion, having mana as resource doesn't look like a problem to me, but if it leads to having to sit every 2-3 fights... that could be a problem. How it will play on long fights is a different story, since they will most likely designed to include every role. Needs testing, but I'm not against mana being a generic resource management mechanic across all classes.

[@Zutang777]

Does mana FEEL good. That doesn’t matter. I don’t like magic and I don’t want to use mana a magic resource for my Fantasy character. Maybe for a Paladin for a mage with a spell blade. So THEMATICALLY I don’t like it.

[@julianeliesen9866]

@Narc, dont wanna be a dick, but how is melee going out of mana any worse then casters or healers? You cant kite, blink or heal either, and the enemy will just catch you untill you die. How is that different then kited untill you die?

[@Annatar_Lord_of_Gifts]

Really agree with the potion being a last resort option with a 2 min cooldown. You're very right about Korean gaming potion use being the short cooldowns and it watering down healing. Great point. Also, I'm curios to how the level experience will be for a bard. Will solo leveling a bard really be possible?

[@aaronbutler5969]

I still think the bard in eq was good, a cleric heals like 2000 single target, mass heals etc but bard had heals of like 50 ever10 seconds but 80% of their spells were aoe centered around them lasted constantly while playing and like 20 seconds after they stopped. So they would play speed, heal, damage and repeat and kite the enemy

[@johndoe-qo8cy]

In the fantasy world.:- Casters use the mind to cast spells - Mana Physical uses muscle to cast skills - Stamina Bard can replenish Mana and stamina Problem Solved.

[@ctznx9039]

Love the videos can’t wait for this game

[@Xexanos]

There might also be weapon enchants or affixes à la "Gain x% mana on hit" or something like that. So if you don't have a bard you could give up one of your damage (or other utility) affixes to sustain mana.

[@nestorcordoba7850]

Hey, Narc. Make a video reviewing all the combats classes we have seen so far :)

[@MBMephisto]

SWG had buff classes, but they were only really in the cantinas.

[@rocsek_]

I'm good with Mana, and solo/party regen of mana. You'll have to play a bit different solo (selective skill use) vs when you have a Bard with you (excessive button mashing). The good players will still be good if they don't have a Bard with them.

[@aidynoconnor582]

Fighter/melee classes with a power/mana bars worked just fine with lotro, no reason it can't work in AoC

[@KatoNamus]

I would've agreed with mana not being for melee classes before I read Reincarnation of the Strongest Sword God (by Lucky Old Cat). Now, I believe every class should have their class mechanic resource as well as mana. Just my 2c

[@vrdynasty3896]

Ive been quite interested in this topic. I think mana is necessary if we're talking multiclassing ? I think if you want to spam abilities you should build for it. There could be mage perks that do something like "restore mana per auto attack" or other class perks that help ease this issue. Im not sure they'll make you rely on a bard for mana - But we'll see. I also feel like that's a bad decision.

[@Raviis]

I'm so excited for a support class being brought back into the MMO scene. I don't know the solution for solo/small group play. But I really hope they put this emphases on support roles. I feel like it's okay to make them important. Think of it like needing a healer and a tank for group content... a game feels shit when that need is removed (WoW, looking at you with 85% of your content). These are intended to be multiplayer first games, cut the single player bullshit mentality. A support should be just as necessary as a tank or healer. Maybe regeneration rates are changed for open world play? I don't know... but I don't think removing the relevance of the support role is the right answer.

[@DanDuffy_]

I love the idea of mana consumption being quite punishing, and support roles being the answer to that. I hope it wouldn't just be Bards but quite a few options for class fantasies who want to play more support roles and give their teammates more mana regen as well as other utility.

[@mix19tape]

As a player who played Dota 2 out of vazzo, im completly fine with mana for all classes, its even better, and i would love to see items and skills that manages mana, for example higher level skills will use lots of mana, so you have to balance it with 1 or 2 good items that either gives you greater pool of mana, or better mana regen per sec... AoC is looking better and better every month..

[@relhaz4326]

I thought when Steven was actually using bloodrage? (the damage to get hp/mana cd) it seemed like you could keep yourself decent. So kinda like an arcane mage in WoW lol. Whenever bloodrage is about to come up you burn, then you sorta conserve until bloodrage is closer to coming up. Depending on mana cost/bloodrage cd depends on how much you need to conserve

[@FishboyAbzu]

I think mana is fine and if they really want to change anything it isnt hard to make mana batteries/mana stats on items also apply to all energy sources.

[@Dagnar1478]

Im fine with mana gating every class, it will give every class equally a reason to sit down and regen at the same time as the casters instead of going off and ass pulling or doing things while the rest of the group isnt ready. Im on the fence between bard or cleric and cant wait to see the class showcase.

[@Scarbeus]

What if hitting an enemy with a basic attack generated a small amount of mana? That way when you run out you can do some basic attacks then get in another ability. Then you have to manage you ability combo's, how many basic attacks to do in between and what buffs you have and when you should take a potion or not during longer fights. Classes like Bards won't be a necessity, but they will be very helpful for generating mana. I also agree with potions having a longer cooldown of at least 2mins or more, you shouldn't be allowed to spam them.

[@prkr_ae]

narc learned he doesn't need to make new videos, he can just not react to himself!

[@zionellis579]

As for the issue of running out of mana and then losing core capabilities that may hinder you too aggressively... what if you could still cast abilities even if you dont have the mana required, but for every 100 mana (nebulas number) of the cost you were not able to pay for you gain a stack of exhaustion, a debuff that reduces move and attack speed by 1% or something like that up to some chosen upper limit. This does not hard stop you from fighting, but it does in a realistic way give weight to pushing yourself past your limits. It also gives another mechanic that support classes could play with too, as there could be some options for relieving exhaustion on the go or in combat. Just mention me (zion) if you liked the idea and wanna share it 😉

[@askr6754]

I like potion as 'oh shit' button as well....not as part of normal rotation. *As as note, to play at Mythic + level, you need to be playing well :P.

[@UncannySense]

Mana is fine... I'd assume there will be skills and augments to make mana regen more feasible as a solo/group player. Down time is nothing new if consumables are in the game. I also recall in WoW classic priest pretty much just used wand auto attacks to lvl up...and that was peak MMO gaming. I plan to play a Bard so it's nice to know that my role will be appreciated rather than a meme

[@lydon5595]

One of the reasons I mostly play meele classes is becasue they usually don't use mana. For me mana always feels like you have to restrict yourself to be efficient. Especially during leveling. I have the really good bursty spells, but can only use them in end game pvp, because they drain my mana. For example in vanilla wow I like priest endgame, but leveling up with wanding is the most boring thing ever.

[@hellstocker7707]

From what I understand you're supposed to sit and rest between fights instead of running from encounter to encounter

[@CHIM3RA.]

good time to plan the next move.

[@anatolydyatlov963]

Oh yes, it's surely changing how we play MMOs: thanks to AoC, we don't play them at all! Instead, we're just waiting for them and occasionally watching gameplays released by the developers - that's the new way.

[@veil1792]

*If you want a max friends list, play Minstrel. If not, make friends with an Alchemist and Culinarian - you'll need it!* *Bards in FF11 were a true support class, and worth their weight in Gold.*

[@jamesdavies2042]

I’m just going to give a personal take, I love playing warrior it’s my jam, I love in classic wow using rage, I would love rogue but I hate energy, I always feel like it confines rotations and removes interactive / counter active gameplay. Same for champs in league energy is horrible to use. I think adding options for each class to have high mana retrieval would be cool in weapon or character talent points. What if hammers had especially good mana points you could use as the rock contained essence drawing powers - instead of them just being like a war axe but a little different. Or melee staffs, maybe these have options for very sustainable but lower dps builds - then potentially people have to bring these weapons out for long boss fights etc

[@BB-do3th]

its probably universal energy system because the game is going to be universal weapons and gear

[@jimmytheswede2063]

mana for certain classes is unusuall... like Fighter/ Warrior in AoC i dont mind it too much, if the games good im happy :P

[@GigabearPanda]

Intrepid Studios is currently suspended by the State of California Franchise Tax Board. Scandal God should probably do something about that.

[@fizzlepop5318]

Momentum Bar. You start at 0, each attack increases your momentum to XX number or percentage or bubbles. Certain attacks are available at different momentum levels. Have the ones useable at low momentum give a slight bonus towards momentum gains. You lose momentum when you are Blocked, Parried, Dodged, or taken off balance by your opponent. Skill trees can expand on the momentum theme with various bonuses and abilities.

[@edhahaz]

I have a crazy idea. How about you make all classes be fun instead of "this class is required for X, but shit anywhere else, enjoy being so special"

[@danny3120]

Mana is the best way to balance classes. Without mana you eventually end up with Classic WoW raids that have nothing but warriors and rogues. No class should ever be able to do 100% of their DPS potential 100% of the time. Resource management should always be a thing in a MMO.

[@StormfangGuide]

Did you played Lineage 2 before? Specially 2004 / 2006 Versions (Chronicle 4 / Chronicle 6) If you played or if there is have a player who played it, can understand the point of mana and the point of bards.

[@brayden43]

Steven used his mana generating ability extremely poorly during this showcase. Based on the cooldown length and the rate at which you burn mana, I have faith that at least in the fighter's case it will feel a lot like Wrath of the Lich King's enhancement shaman. Enhancement shamans in Wrath burn an entire mana bar in just about 1 minute, but also have a mana generating ability on a 1 minute cooldown. If you overspend because things get a bit dicey you might have to be OOM for 5 seconds but it all feels really good at the end of the day.