Ask Fr. Barron: To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant? and secular?

This week's question for Fr. Barron comes from Jeff Miller (The Curt Jester - splendoroftruth.com). He notes Blessed John Henry Newman's claim that "to be deep in history is to cease to be protestant." And then asks if there's any truth to applying the same idea to, not just protestantism, but secularism also.
Check it out and discuss amongst yourselves (below).
Blog posts here: www.ncregister.com/blog/matthe...

[@thomaspelletier7790]

Da vinci- Beautiful paintings, michaelangelo, the sistine chapel, the pieta. Contemporary artists- blue stripe down the middle of canvas, sold for millions.

[@forresthenry9535]

I completely agree, in fact it has been my observation that things such as art, philosophy, literature, etc. has taken a rather swift turn for the mediocre. Look at art today and what is found on the walls of art studios and museums are just fabric canvases with paint smeared all over in the manner of a 3 year old child, at best, an eighth grade experiment with contrasts with light and shades. Yet it is these works that receive the highest marks instead of a landscape, a portrait, the study of an animal or even a surrealist painting. In this day and age we are going through a sort of dark age.

[@thethirdjegs]

canvass of a toddler. Whew! That escalated quickly

[@dynamic9016]

Thanks much for this video.

[@gondolacrescent5]

I've had an intense interest in history since the age of 7 after an Uncle gave me his coin collection. I was a staunch protestant, anti-catholic for most of my life until a number of occurrences changed my mind and eventually my heart. Before I knew anything about Henry Newman I'd come to the very same conclusion as he did, I wrote someone "..my protestantism was destroyed by the witness of history" and" if you wish to remain Protestant avoid reading unbiased history" or something very similar.

[@mussman717word]

Great answer to a great question... Something I've never been able to quite put my finger on... But it's true...

[@paulsmallwood1484]

The Reformers weren’t out to make a “new” church. They were out to reform the old one.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

I would call it the "pillar and ground of Truth", founded on "the Rock on which He built His Church", against which "the gates of Hell shall not prevail". Peter was the spokesman for all the Apostles. So it is to this day. At least we take Christ at His word. I imagine - as you don't appear to be a liberal - that you take Genesis literally, but when Jesus Himself says something, you say He's only being figurative. And that is why you don't believe Cephas is the Rock, as Christ named Him.

[@jedijeff]

dear chris, check out Christopher West's theology of the body by Blessed Pope John Paul II :) Hope it helps you. THere are some clips here on youtube as well.

[@ilonkastille2993]

Barton is not answering the question about what Newman said. He does not want to upset the protestants.

[@FaithandReason101]

cite a source please

[@FaithandReason101]

the catholic church forced legislation on whom? cite an example please

[@FaithandReason101]

speaking about marriage isnt 'forcing legislation.' you have yet to cite a source that shows the catholic church has authority over government processes of legislation, as you stated "When the Catholic Church tries to force legislation..." you dont like that the catholic church takes a stance on morality. fine. but to accuse it of somehow manipulating the govt. is just an unsubstantiated claim, which shows yourself to be hateful at catholicism, even irrationally so.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

That is only assuming it is "secularised" and "anti-Gospel". You have not learned enough about it - or the New Testament - to make that statement.

[@FaithandReason101]

i dont see that the catholic church has any political say in the u.s. where are you getting your information from?

[@drfye]

catholic answers. com has been a very informative source of information.

[@christophermartin8685]

Father Barron, can you please comment on the church and sexuality. I feel it is a pressing issue that is being ignored. Women priests, contraceptives, homosexuality, the overwhelming positions of power held by men, etc. God bless.

[@edgwaterprog]

I cannot see how we agree? Just declaring we do does not make it so.

[@mussman717word]

What was the very first sentence I contributed to this conversation? "In all honesty, it's probably a little bit of both." Secularism arose, like you said, when the Catholic church was doing terrible things, things that led to the Protestant Reformation. The Church isn't doing those things anymore, and had ceased by the 19th Century, when John Henry Newman famously converted and dismissed the historical knowledge of those who didn't. The persistence of secularism is apart from its origin.

[@beatrizmartinez5760]

After all my reading from jesusits wen I sow bergoglio coming out the balcony I know it UGH 😑 He's so sneaky. So soft spoken. So humble. Then the blasphemy we he say

[@lpsevenenabibas2719]

WHERE ARE THE DISCIPLES??? "CONSIDER the lively examples set us by the saints, who possessed the light of true perfection and religion [discipline], and you will see how little, how nearly nothing, we do. What, alas, is our life, compared with theirs? The saints and friends of Christ served the Lord in hunger and thirst, in cold and nakedness, in work and fatigue, in vigils and fasts, in prayers and holy meditations, in persecutions and many afflictions. How many and severe were the trials they suffered-the Apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins, and all the rest who willed to follow in the footsteps of Christ! They hated their lives on earth that they might have life in eternity. How strict and detached were the lives the holy hermits led in the desert! What long and grave temptations they suffered! How often were they beset by the enemy [sin]! What frequent and ardent prayers they offered to God! What rigorous fasts they observed! How great their zeal and their love for spiritual perfection! How brave the fight they waged to master their evil habits! What pure and straightforward purpose they showed toward God! By day they labored and by night they spent themselves in long prayers. Even at work they did not cease from mental prayer. They used all their time profitably; every hour seemed too short for serving God, and in the great sweetness of contemplation, they forgot even their bodily needs." The Imitation of Christ, by Thomas à Kempis

[@FaithandReason101]

1. church positions aren't civil politics...i fail to see how (if it were true women cant have leadership positions; but they do have lots of leadership in the church), how that supports your opinion of the catholic church forcing 'legislation.' 2. 'a woman's right to choose,' is a misnomer for abortion, plain and simple. in any case, you still havent shown the catholic church has 'forced legislation' or directly altered politics.

[@momentumblack]

Not to go into arguments over history of the Church (who came first/second; leader of the first Church; Sola scriptura or tradition(s); appropriate version of the Bible to use) When one reads/examines the Book of Acts-day of Pentecost in the upper room-what does that historical account tell us about the Church and what it is supposed to be today. I'd like to say more, however, I will leave it for everyone who reads this comment to put aside protestant or RCC and honestly exam it. Go from there.

[@FaithandReason101]

my point isnt an opinion, or a feeling. its one that you should be able to cite some credible source for, and you cant/arent.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

Right, then. And you say you find Catholic apostolic succession to be most convincing. Well, tell me, how do you understand Catholic teaching on it?

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

My apologies. I have misread you. So are you a Christian, then, or non?

[@mussman717word]

John 20:22-23 is the reason confessions are had in the first place. This is not some kind of new idea, mate. In the Catholic understanding, the Apostles were the first clergy, and Christ gave the power of forgiveness to them and only them, precisely because that's who Christ was speaking to when he said these things. If Christ had been speaking to a varied selection of people, the practice and customs of our time would be quite different. Oh, and God bless ;)

[@DonDraperism]

Sorry the Church is going to change things to suit your purposes. Christ gave us the Catholic Church, not 20,000 sects all disagreeing with each other. If you don't like it then take it up with God.

[@edgwaterprog]

What do you call the Vatican but a secular institution masquerading as church? As for the Gospel, I know that even if you take the meaning of the Christ's commissioning The Church and Peter as its head literally, the RCC is in many ways in direct opposition to spirit of the Gospel.

[@RockyBalboa211]

Well, that happens in all types of work though. You have doctors who study for years, yet have no bedside manner or don't like sick people.

[@philipterzian4581]

Of course, at the same time, to be deep in Roman Catholicism is to be deep into the loins of young (male) acolytes.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

Oh, so you believe the Catholic Church is the original Church, then?

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

No, these are my criteria for negating any political clout it may have. You would be run out of Washington on a rail if you were seriously trying to peddle these in the Senate, or the HoR. As for the primacy of Peter's Church, we already agree on that.

[@edgwaterprog]

I do not dispute the wrongs perpentrated by Protestants and that Secularism is partially rooted in the violence of Christians of most sects. I would not underestimate the ability of the Catholic Church to foment opposition. As for your last statement. There are pleanty of Catholics who leave the Church, Secularism is not an exclusive feature of Protestantism.

[@johnplatko8804]

I'm just glad it's not the 13th century and the Catholic Church can't burn people at the stake anymore. Why would anyone think that people who did things like that had a good handle on religion and Jesus?

[@paulsmallwood1484]

Cardinal Newman recognized the obvious difference between the current Roman Church and the early church. He was too deep in history not to see it. He had to develop his famous idea of doctrinal development to explain it. He argued that all the later Roman doctrines and practices were “hidden” in the church from the beginning. They were made explicit over time under the guidance of the Spirit. But the problem that many Roman Catholics fail to see is that there is a difference between development and contradiction. It is one thing to use different language to teach something the church has always taught (e.g., the “Trinity”). It is another thing altogether to begin teaching something that the church always denied (e.g., papal supremacy or infallibility). Those doctrines in particular were built on multitudes of forgeries. Cardinal Manning solved the problem by treating any appeal to history as treason. He called for blind faith in the papacy and magisterium. Such might have been possible had the fruits of the papacy over 1,500 years not consistently been the precise opposite of the fruit of the Spirit (Matt. 7:16).

[@mussman717word]

In all honesty, it's probably a little bit of both. Keep in mind, John Henry Newman was a 19th Century thinker. If you look at the Church from then to now, it's been a far cry from what the Protestants were up against, i.e. Inquisitions and so forth. I think it could be argued that secularism was a result of theological dispute, but the perpetuation of that theological dispute, especially in a post-Vatican II world, lies entirely with the Protestants.

[@mussman717word]

Protestant sects ARE "lost daughters," from a theological stand-point. The Real Penance, the Sacrament of Penance, all the stuff is Biblical. There's no reason for the division. The Catholic Church acknowledges any Baptism performed in the name of the Trinity, including those done by a Protestant church. The Catholic Church is waiting for Protestants to experience the FULLNESS of the faith, but that in no way disrespects what faith they already have. God bless.

[@edgwaterprog]

Just because an idea is old does not make it right. Protestants do not read this passage to only apply to the clergy. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

[@mussman717word]

With respect to burning people at the stake, that shit flew both ways. See: Queen Elizabeth, Salem Witch Trials, Ursuline Convent Riots, etc. There's no question that religious violence leads to secularism, but it came from both sides. My point is that, if the Catholic church then acted as it does now, there never would have been a Reformation in the first place. And that, if internal theological dispute contributes to secularism (which I think it does), Catholicism is not to blame for it.

[@edgwaterprog]

I think we will have to leave that as a difference of opinion. LGBTQ persons in Illinois probably feel different.

[@edgwaterprog]

I beg to differ. The Catholic Church is not that "reformed". The Vatican continues to issue statements describing Protestant sects as "lost daughters". When the Catholic Church begins to honestly treat other sects as permanent, valid expressions of The Faith then I might agree that Catholic Church has finally moved beyond the bad old days.

[@edgwaterprog]

I could really care less what the Roman Catholic Church does. But I will fight it's obsession with holding secular power. I also think God does not care too much about the institution of the RCC. If he did he would have made sure that it was properly reformed not continue as the secularized, anti-Gospel wreck that it is.

[@FaithandReason101]

you:I could really care less what the Roman Catholic Church does. But I will fight it's obsession with holding secular power. me: so you apparently DO care what it does...you are going to fight it...as you say

[@daviderman5956]

John Henry Newman was mistaken in thinking that all Church history before the Reformation was Catholic. In fact, he may have been ignoring the history of his own Celtic ancestors. The Battle of Hastings led to Margaret being Malcolm of Scotland's Queen. She sought to change Scottish Christianity into what was then continental European (Catholic) Christianity. In Scotland they observed the Sabbath and worked Sunday. She was influential in converting Scotland to Sunday.

[@edgwaterprog]

Well said.

[@mussman717word]

John 20:22-23 is the grounds for the sacrament of confession. I'm sorry you feel that way about being described as "lost daughters," but it is hardly an insult. Again, I stress, that our fellow Christians' faith is not invalid, but incomplete. What you're asking Catholicism to do is to call itself a mere subjective truth among many. That's absurd. These doctrines go back to the Church fathers, and to the Apostles themselves. John Henry Newman got it right. Study your history. God bless.

[@JeffersonDinedAlone]

Apparently not so easy. You were dead-wrong on two of them, and partialy wrong on a third.

[@edgwaterprog]

(cont) 2. Your second statement appears to accuse the Protestants exclusively for the rise in Secularism in the second half of the last Century. That ignores the expansion of Secularism among Catholics and in Catholic countries which is comparable to the same process among Protestants and in Protestant countries.

[@edgwaterprog]

When I said I could care less what the RCC does, I meant internally. When the Church asserts that it has the right to block the free will of non-Catholics, I believe I am obligated to fight against it.

[@xukeith33]

Sad about the Catholic Church. Too much deep Theology and Philosophy and not enough LOVING Jesus! Early Church priests did not study for 5-8 years before becoming a priest. Too much philosophy and theology(not that is incorrect) but many cannot relate to common folk.

[@celebrim1]

I was raised in an evangelical holiness Protestant tradition. I have endeavored several times to make a survey of the history of Christian writing, reading works in whole or in part by different Christian writers from Irenaeus to the modern age. When I first began this project, my assumption was that the more proximate the writer, the more familiar that their Christianity would be while the older writers would be something strange and offer a different viewpoint. To my surprise, the exact opposite occurred. The writers I most connected to where some of the oldest, while the most modern seemed to have the strangest thoughts. This was true of writers whether they were Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant. The faith of my childhood was most reflected to my surprise in dark age aesthetics and mystics. It was recent theology that I largely couldn't recognize. I don't think the protestants ever read history the way you describe. They see themselves as returning to beliefs more ancient than those that they saw reflected in the political, institutionalized, and as they thought morally and theologically compromised church. When I go back and read history, I don't find the 'Catholic' institution you see. I do find, at least in earlier periods, a more catholic church, but not Catholicism. I just completed 'The Pursuit of God' by A.W. Tozer. He is clearly very deep in history, and I endeavored to try to read a bit of the writing of the men he studied. It's clear he also doesn't see these men or the history through the same lens.

[@randym.7238]

The Catholic Church is deep in Something alright. But it's not Christianity.

[@edgwaterprog]

The Catholic Church blocked the passage of Marriage Equality in Illinois last week.

[@FaithandReason101]

an opinion means what exactly? it isnt rooted in any philosophical or scientific observation, or even scripture, as observed from your post. in other words, you threw a stone at a window and ran. grow some.

[@edgwaterprog]

In so much of your previous statement, you have misrepresented the situation as it would be seen by a Protestant. 1. I guess we should feel lucky that the Church is no longer capable of burning Protestants at the stake. That is a function of the rise of secular governments that forced the Catholic Church to change the way it operated. (cont)

[@FaithandReason101]

You: has the right to block the free will of non-catholics... me: free will isnt blocked by anyone but the individual. thats perhaps one of the most ridiculous statements i've seen.

[@edgwaterprog]

I am a Christian.

[@wjmeegan]

Shouldn't the information about Catholicism be free to the laity? As a Roman Catholic I always believed the teachings of Jesus Christ and the teaching of Catholicism were free. WHY IS BISHOP BARRON RAKING IN THE CASH???... Is there no longer a true Catholic Church teaching freely the WORD OF GOD???... IS THIS NOT WHY CATHOLICS ARE LEAVING THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH???...

[@wjmeegan]

***** I am not referring to Bishop Barron making money himself. I am upset that he fails to teach Catholicism but is willing to rake in the cash for the same old same old same old. THAT IS SATANIC.

[@edgwaterprog]

How is that a good observation? It seems like a mush of Catholic propaganda from someone who does not have the first idea what they are talking about.

[@FaithandReason101]

again, what are you offering as proof? you dodged on citing a source that shows the catholic church is a political power in america. what if i start making up comments without proof? what if i were to say that you are simply saying these things because your lifestyle is amoral, and you dont want to be 'convicted' of immoral behavior? or, you are in the pay of groups who promote very liberal causes....now, i dont have proof of either, but you havent offered any either.

[@edgwaterprog]

The Roman Catholic Church lost its privilege of the Gospel long ago. You claim this privilege but create a corrupt worldly organization that contradicts the Gospel and just saying "Cephas is the Rock" over and over again does not remove the worldly filth from the organization.

[@billy1132]

After 24 spiritually darkened yrs in the 💒 of rome without The Holy Bible WORD as my only Divine Authority, in 1996 was Saved from this so called 💒 n I have Ceased to be roman catholic n Thank GOD i have shared The Holy Bible WORD of GOD with many many many roman catholics who have similarly Ceased to to be roman catholics!! Praise Our LORD GOD, JESUS CHRIST👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@edgwaterprog]

"From a theological stand-point"? I believe you mean as a matter of doctrine. The "Sacrament of Penance" as practiced by the Catholic Church is no biblical. Calling other sects "lost daughters" is an incredibly insulting statement and needs to be exorcised from Catholic teaching.

[@jaramillojuan9226]

That's how Newman saw it. Doesn't mean everybody has to see it that way. Protestants be Protestants, Catholics be Catholics.

[@edgwaterprog]

LGBTQ rights (marriage, adoption, work place rights)...abortion...

[@edgwaterprog]

Give it a rest. That kind of talk does nothing to reconcile the confessions. John 20:22-23 does not limit the power to forgive sins to priests only. That is not even a literal translation of these verses. It is signalling that the power to forgive comes from the Holy Spirit. Give the "God Bless" a break, OK. You are about as insincere as they come.

[@beatrizmartinez5760]

And live Yeshua and start giving all the praise to your mary? (Yeshua's mother name is Miryam) after all the unspeakable peace and joy that I live with my Savior. No no no Let me tell you something mister. I was a big big reader of History then 6 years ago I open a bible and run from vaticanism to no coming back. The Roman Empire history and the Jesuits history and the dark age history of Vatican WOW! Oh and I read all that in a convent wen I was 16. I'm 68 now. Thank you thank you Yeshua for save me ❤❤❤

[@jwhippet8313]

Beatriz Martinez , you do realize none of the Gospel writers had any problem translating Hebrew names into other languages.

[@paulhill7726]

Why do you think that you have a better understanding of Christ than those who walked with Him and those taught by them that did? How is it that you almost 2000 years removed from the events of the 1st century, have a better understanding than those who lived in it?

[@cristinamz2137]

@@paulhill7726 Great Question Marcus, that is the same question that I always ask Protestants when I get the chance. Notice that Beatriz did not reply. Let's pray that her hatred for the Catholic Church has ceased, because that is what I get from her words. She did not convert to Protestantism out of love for Christ, but out of hatred for His Church.

[@paulhill7726]

Cristina MZ there’s not a dozen people who truly hate the Catholic Church but there are millions who hate her for what they think she is 😢

[@timspangler8440]

To be HONEST about history is to admit that the church at the time of Christ did NOT worship the eucharist. If you are so "deep in history"...show me. Otherwise you are deep in brainwashing.

[@BBShaw-cd9wz]

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils." 110 A.D St. Ignatius of Antioch

[@timspangler8440]

+B.B. Shaw I missed in that quote where it says to WORSHIP the Eucharist. I also missed it in all other commentaries...Scriptures...Creeds.

[@BBShaw-cd9wz]

+Tim Spangler you are funny

[@BBShaw-cd9wz]

worship in the protestant perspective is not the same as it is for catholics. "We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving." St. Justin martyr

[@timspangler8440]

+B.B. Shaw No matter the same or different....the early church NEVER said they worship the Eucharist.

[@davepugh2519]

You don't have to be a Catholic to be a child molester . . . . .but it helps.

[@FBBFAN1972]

Your comment just proves the point that you (and people like you) are incapable of having a rational conversation on the merits about the topic of the video, the Church in general, religion, philosophy, history, art, etc. Instead, you always "win" the argument by not actually arguing or engaging but rather by lowering yourself and appealing to the sexual abuse scandal and all of the other bad things in Church history. But what's even more interesting is the fact that even if you were to honestly engage the subject of the sexual abuse scandal (or the Crusades, or any other "bad" topic) you would quickly find yourself losing because you know nothing of substance about the topic. You appeal to bumper sticker caricatures of the Church to "win" arguments.

[@davepugh2519]

How can anyone have a 'rational' conversation with someone who talks about angels and demons as though they were real?

[@FBBFAN1972]

Exactly my point. You are a total materialist. Anything beyond the senses and this world is just make believe to you. If you only knew. But some day you will know.

[@davepugh2519]

How exactly do you know anything about things that are 'beyond the senses and this world'?