Ask Ian: "Last Ditch" Rifles for World War III?

utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane.com/channel/For...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
From Thunderchild on Patreon:
"How would you see a modern major nation (US, USSR/Russia, China, etc) simplify their small arms in a large scale war, WW3 or Cold War gone hot? You've mentioned in the past how most nations end up having to simplify to meet demands, so why not start simplified?"
The reason for simplified small arms is to increase production speed. During peacetime deployment of new arms, it generally doesn't really matter how long manufacturing takes, and enough rifles will be built for the standing army and some predetermined number of reserve weapons. Last-ditch guns become a necessity when battlefield wastage and increased conscription combine to demand arms well beyond the production capacity of a country's industrial base. The only solution is to simplify the design to decrease production time - and the simplifications can't hinder the effectiveness or safety of the weapon, or else there is no point in producing them in the first place.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740

[@sgtusmc1sgtusmc266]

So basically an m16a1 with a polymer lower. I guess Stoner wins again 😂

[@Airondot]

Dude had it figured out until we came along and started messing with it.

[@JoeSkylynx]

M16A1 with polymer lower and wood handguard. So a really sexually confused ARES SCR.

[@kabloosh699]

There are so many AR-15s in circulation in this nation the military could just ask us to donate(or show up with your guns) these rifles and if they want them to be select fire they manufacture the necessary parts and modify the lowers for this functionality saving A TON of money and time on making whole new rifles.

[@ctrlaltdebug]

There are 3D printed lower designs.

[@jacobcastro1885]

@@ashyslashy5818 it's not 1940 anymore.

[@thomasmartin7816]

I love the irony that the AR-15/M16 is now faster and easier to make than the AR-18 which was conceived as a quicker, cheaper rifle.

[@popinmo]

the funny thing is the ak platform is waaay harder to mass produce now then the ar15 is and its funny dumb communist get mad when you tell them this

[@Snakesht172]

Stamped sheet metal receivers are quicker and cheaper than machining a forging if you have the ability to scale it up. That's why civilian stamped rifles cost more, they don't have the production quantity to spread the cost of tooling and setup over.

[@popinmo]

@@Snakesht172 injection molded lowers are way cheaper exponentially because it also makes the stock and grip in one go quicker and cheaper then steel plus it's lighter and dosnt rust

[@AsbestosMuffins]

mostly because cnc'ing is soooooo cheap and time efficient now, and that's 3 axis and pretty much every shop can afford at least a couple cnc cabinets now

[@SidneyBroadshead]

The AR18 wasn't designed to be cheaper or quicker. It was designed to be manufactured locally by lower tech countries that couldn't easily make the M16. The hitch was that the US gave away surplus M16s to its allies, undermining their arms manufacturing industries. It's heavier than the M16 due to it being made out of sheet steel rather than aluminum alloy. The action is solid; several service rifles (Enfield L85 IW and L86 LSW and the Daewoo K2) ripped it off.

[@Lavthefox]

I can imagine in a comical alternate story line where a Japanese version of Ian reviews last ditch Thompson's....

[@sexrobot4921]

this comment is underated

[@toml3241]

ummmmm that would be the grease gun

[@jacoblipman4743]

There were never going to be last ditch thompsons because we recognized they were outdated trash and replaced them with the much cheaper, much lighter M3

[@oliverdelaenfield2]

Not exactly outdated trash seeing as they saw frontline use right up through the beginning of the Vietnam War despite being “replaced” by the M3 decades earlier 🤣

[@Db--jt7bt]

They’d be grease guns.

[@amiltopuz6370]

Can't help but think that Ian's description fits the Service rifle of the NCR from New Vegas.

[@gruntysskim4145]

If it got really really bad I'm sure one could redesign the m4 system to have a side charging system like the service rifle. It would also delete the small fiddly parts involved in the spring loaded ejection port cover, and all the parts and machining involved in making the top charging handle. Loads of other people have said that getting rid of the forward assist would be top of the list, as it should. I think the furniture would stay polymer though, Fallout is a world in which the secrets of the old world are lost, or at the very least access to them is severely limited, I doubt the NCR would ever be able to get a supply of good quality plastic going ever, especially with the lack of oil that started the great war in the first place. In real life, if worst comes to worst, everyone with an injection molding machine can make conscript rifle quality furniture, and the proper selection, treating, storage, carving, and general processing of the good quality wood like rifle stocks is almost an artisanal skill at this point.

[@TheArklyte]

​@@gruntysskim4145 that's the thing, NCR tech level is fluctuating between Great War and early Vietnam War. So you would see a lot more wood and steel furniture like AK and Valmet. But technically they can do plastics like bakelite, they'd be very expensive though as all resin and oil types have to be sourced from biochemical factories as only raw material left are various agricultural produces.

[@battlesheep2552]

​@@TheArklytewell I think the issue isn't tech level, it's manufacturing capacity. They know how most of the stuff from 2077 works and how to make it, it's just currently economically unfeasible to outfit their entire army with it, so they'll use a mixture of pre-war relics and equipment made through less sophisticated production methods. It's just like in the Doctor Who episode "Genesis of the Daleks" where the Kaleds still had the ability to make Ray guns, but with all their infrastructure bombed to hell most of their troops are using bolt action rifles.

[@ryanbrown3433]

​@@gruntysskim4145 two words, ocean plastic

[@googlehepimizifisliyor2968]

No surprise, the lead designer was a gun nut.

[@Gunbudder]

The perfect example is the Thompson vs the grease gun. fancy sub gun with finicky magazine and milled out wooden parts vs tube that goes bang

[@JanTuts]

t o o b

[@jtilton5]

Or the British idea of the Sten. They decided to built their last ditch guns first.

[@timbrwolf1121]

@@jtilton5 The british never left the last ditch after WW1 💀 They were just napping in it.

[@jtilton5]

@@timbrwolf1121 and then they did the fastest sprint ever.... To Dunkirk.

[@nucleargrizzly1776]

My Dad caught the end of Korea and the beginning of Vietnam. He praised the M3 and captured AK's. Couldn't stand anything else. Don't get him started on those first M-16's issued.

[@fanta4897]

I think that considering this is US we're talking about, the last ditch would look more like this ''Attention to everyone being conscripted and or mobilized. Bring your own rifle in 5.56 if you have one, it will be converted to full-auto and you will be compensated after the war in case of loss of your rifle.''

[@Scottagram]

After the war: "Your rifle damage is not service related"

[@christianwilson5956]

I'd see it being more than likely that "last ditch" m16 series weapons would just be off the shelf ar15s.

[@jacobcastro1885]

Only in very rare circumstances is full auto an advantage, and almost never in a general issue rifle/carbine.

[@Ocato92]

@@Scottagram I actually can very easily imagine that being the typical response.

[@Tomyironmane]

@@Ocato92 Imagine? You've never dealt with the VA?

[@HTacianas]

"If you think that's too long because of armor - and if you're actually still *issuing* every soldier armor..." The gravity of the hypothetical situation didn't hit until he said that for some reason.

[@GrimSoldat]

Yeah 🙁 That would be *bad*, to say the least... I think of the all the "lockdown" shortages in 2020, but now everyone starting fights over toilet paper are now shooting each other.

[@aaroniousairlines9087]

"The first soldier carries the rifle. The second soldier carries the ammo." ~Jude Law movie about the enemy being at the gates

[@michalsoukup1021]

We dont even currently issue armor to all troops that get rifles. Armor is for infantry and other tip of the spear troops. You don'tr give full set of body armor to a post guard, a driver, a cook at Camp Knowhere 200km from the fighting. But they may all need a rifle at some time. So I imagine they will get the "polymer lower A1s" and their nice adjustable stock rifles will be pushed to front units.

[@N7mudkip]

@@michalsoukup1021lmao what are you talking about? Even the reservist Air Force jet maintenance guys in Afghanistan had armor plates, helmets, and Aimpoint CCO’s on their M4’s. 😂 this was in Dec 2020-May 2021. If that’s not the polar opposite of Infantry, idk what is. But do tell, who isn’t getting armor in a deployed combat zone? A lot of dead Russians…

[@deeznoots6241]

@@michalsoukup1021tbf I think its more a hypothetical situation where after a mass mobilisation there would be more frontline soldiers than body armour available, of course you would likely keep the most raw recruits without the body armour either in reserve or on more quiet fronts but in an intense war scenario its entirely possible there’d be troops with lesser equipment thrown into heavy fighting, especially if production of body armour/plates cannot keep up with the attrition of them in the field(entirely possible in a full scale war, all these hypermodern militaries have only really fought insurgencies rather than a major peer conflict)

[@rogerd777]

I think in a situation like this, we should put Ian in charge of the Ordinance Department

[@mikewithers299]

Seconded...🤣

[@nevaehphobia2263]

I dunno, given his previous work for the People's Republic of Elbonia, I question his credentials

[@YanBaoQin]

The Elbonian Ordinance Bureau

[@mcribenthusiast7010]

How about we put him in charge of the ATF? He'd literally be the most qualified expert there and might just turn into a historical research agency.

[@YanBaoQin]

@@mcribenthusiast7010 mmmmm, historical alcohols....

[@eddietat95]

There's also the factor of pre-existing overall firearms production capacity in each country. There are hundreds of US AR and AR parts manufacturers across many non-strategic US towns/villages too small to be worth an enemy attack. In Russia, there's just Izhevsk and Tula and if those get hit, Russian AK production basically grinds to a halt.

[@Pelmedeeznuts]

but then Russian still have stockpile of AKs, AKMs and AK-74s sitting in storages

[@bigfatstupidfish2397]

@Pelmeni Not as much as you'd think. When the soviet union fell the people who were supposed to watch over the arms stock piles were no longer being paid so they started secretly selling off Soviet Weapons. That is why it is common for terrorists to be using AK-47s.

[@george2113]

@@Pelmedeeznuts if Russian guns were sitting in storage, why is the army issuing rusty rifles?

[@Pelmedeeznuts]

@@george2113 that's the thing, for backup or reserve weapons, they don't get any care at all

[@rbgerald2469]

@@Pelmedeeznuts They're just sitting there or in crates, gathering dust.

[@davydatwood3158]

I think if I were responsible for a "last ditch" M16 I'd get rid of full auto entirely - the soldiers these are going to will be presumably also be "last ditch," which means severely truncated training. Giving them an auto-loading only rifle means you don't need to teach them to control full auto at all.

[@albin5389]

Besides the training I don’t think that in this case the majority needs a full auto at all

[@jacobcastro1885]

Full auto is almost never an advantage.

[@stever8776]

The purpose of full auto is to make the enemy seek cover while elements move forward. You do this in teams to close with the enemy. That said full auto is very useful on dedicated machine guns. Most people would be surprised about how accurate my issue M16A1 was using short bursts of full auto. At CQB distances or when being over run full auto can useful. Once you have had a full auto, you want to have that capability on your rifle. Even though as a good rifleman, you would use semi auto the majority of time. But sometimes.... Unfortunately we are no longer a nation of Riflemen. Cheers

[@SexyLilSeaOtter]

@@jacobcastro1885 are you making it your job to go around comment sections saying false shit about things you know nothing about?

[@clothar23]

@@stever8776 Full auto is not useful even in suppression during fire and maneuver for the standard rifleman. Area denial is the job of lmgs and the like. No properly trained enemy is going to be scared of a bunch of conscripts wildly spraying their hastily converted AR-15s. But even poorly trained conscripts would likely manage semi accurate fire with semi autos. And shots that land much closer to one's head are much more effective in suppression than stuff that's only in the same general postal code.

[@RaiderCat12]

I hope this video never ends up into the “Ian’s incredible ability to predict the future” series

[@gawkthimm6030]

I recently had a thought; how would a gun be designed if the objective was to make fully automatic rifle that would be most easily homemade, a gun designed for an insurgency with a weapons shortage, but would still use either AR or AK magazines and ammo. That gun that wouldn't need to be as reliable as a military standard rifle, with the least amount of features and simplicity of manufacturing. Not something last ditch by a government, but something still for "desperate times".. if you combine what Ian said about polymer moldings, with 3D printed parts, simplified CNC machining etc.

[@RaiderCat12]

@@gawkthimm6030 I think it'd be a slightly sturdier and bigger, 3D printed, Sten. If you really want to go for simplicity that's as simple as you're gonna get. Can't imagine any other gun to fit that role, that wouldn't require a lot of materials.

[@gawkthimm6030]

​@@RaiderCat12 but that wouldnt be able to use modern magazines and ammo in wide circulation, which would be the second most important requirement, or do you mean "bigger" as in modified for rifle ammo?

[@RaiderCat12]

@@gawkthimm6030 I do mean bigger as in modified for rifle ammo and to take rifle mags, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[@gawkthimm6030]

@@RaiderCat12 no problemo, but thanks for the reply

[@dariustiapula]

Love how the Fallout pre-war American military start this way. Went from advance materials to wood.

[@TheStewieOne]

NCR Serivce Rifle.

[@DerWastelander]

​@@TheStewieOneWe won't go quietly...

[@Captain-Jinn]

Wood may not be advanced, but is it cheaper/faster to make than other alternatives? A big part of the weapons development of WW2 was changing a lot of weapons from wooden stocks and milled parts to stamped sheet metal because of how much more efficient it was for production, if not for effectiveness.

[@pilferedserenity1570]

​@@Captain-Jinn It is not faster than polymer, and unless cost of labor is very low it isn't cheaper either.

[@dariustiapula]

@@TheStewieOne Those are later. I was thinking the R91 and R series rifles.

[@UnknownReloader]

I think there'd just be a raid of the commercial market. Imagine the Enemy at The Gates one with the rifle and one with the handfull of bullets scene but you get handed a Bear Creek Arsenal side charging AR and a p-mag

[@dankjugs1068]

I’d be a dead man for sure 😂

[@thatguyoverthere9634]

We want to equip troops, NOT KILL THEM!

[@phaserrifle3]

Aye, there are a ton of places making AR variants, so I suspect you'd see a lot of them getting pressed into use, either as is, as contracts for militarised versions, or contracts for parts that get cobbled together as frankenguns in some government setup workshop somewhere. (Doesn't take much training to have a bunch of armourers who are just doing assembly from parts)

[@Toactwithoutthinking]

The first man gets a BCA, the second man gets a magazine and an extra bcg!

[@Bacteriophagebs]

What's wrong with BCA? Is this one of those "they're inexpensive and therefore they must be unreliable because if they're not I'll feel really stupid for paying ten times as much" things like Hi-Points and Kel-tec? I have a BCA upper (not a side-charge, though) in 6.5 grendel and it not only handles steel-case Wolf ammo ($.25 per round when I bought it) without a hitch, it shoots under 2 MOA with it, and just over 1 MOA with match ammo. Granted, it's a heavy barrel, but you don't get that kind of accuracy from poorly-made barrels regardless of profile. I fully expected jams with the Wolf and planned to buy a different upper if that happened, but it hasn't had a single malfunction in the 440 rounds I put through it (400 Wolf, 40 Hornady Black).

[@sergiom9958]

Fun fact: Canada saved about 70 USD for every C7 rifle because they kept the original A1 style sights instead adopting A2 sights. That says a lot about the M16A2.

[@loganbaileysfunwithtrains606]

M16A2 was the love child of the Marine Corps. They wanted a rifle to better “qualify” marines in their shooting, thus the A2 sights, and lack of full auto.

[@jamesr792]

The C7 is basically all the good parts of an M16A2 and none of the stupid bits.

[@BeltFedSelfDefense]

@@jamesr792 as an American who adores the M16A2, you are spot on. The ultra rare M16A3 is really what they should've done as standard. (A2 with full auto trigger group)

[@abitofapickle6255]

Agreed. Now where the A2 really shines is as a civilian rifle.

[@mitchellsmith4690]

Having carried and trained on both...M16A2...you were supposed to shoot 3 round bursts with the A1...but that required highly disciplined troops to achieve.

[@OldMusicFan83]

My first AR build featured a surplus M16A1 upper and demilled A1 triangle hand guard, stock and pistol grip. I zeroed the iron on a 25 meter range just as Uncle Sam taught me in 84. I can still shoot iron to 300 meters. Has a modern reduced friction bolt carrier, M4 feed ramp and new 20” pencil barrel as well.

[@nebiyuesayas5600]

Honestly I kinda hope someone builds a Last Ditch AR in the way you suggest, just to see what it's like (proof of concept).

[@danh1060]

Cheap m16 clone upper with a shitty omni hybrid lower lol.

[@qsw4kchips827]

Yes

[@rotwang2000]

They actually suggested one in the old Twilight 2000 game, an 80's RPG about the third world war. The M16 EZ came as a kit, barrel, bolt, bolt carrier and trigger group as well as tubing and flat sheets and a set of machining instructions and plans. Being the 1980's they say it helped to give militias an air of authority rather than just be groups of guys armed with deer rifles ...

[@jona.scholt4362]

Given how common AR platforms are now, I can say with confidence that those militias in this hypothetical scenario would much more likely be armed with ARs than with some sort of mid-20th century "deer rifle".

[@dgunearthed7859]

If you ask Reno May, I bet he'd say the BCA is this gun u speak of. Cheap and according to his 2 rifles, don't shoot past 60 rds before crapping the bed

[@johndallman2692]

Back in WWII, stepping up production sometimes caused changes by itself. This was common with wooden stocks: you can't suddenly increase production of well-seasoned wood by 300%. So the British and Germans, at least, went to laminated wood. This will not be a problem in the future, because everyone uses polymer now.

[@ulissedazante5748]

Some plastic producer that usually make else will be hard pressed to make chonkier less durable receivers in the plastic they know. If it is a last ditch scenario, if those "plastic" parts could work as long as the volksturm militiaman that carry it, it's enough.

[@thepotatoincident3593]

weren't a lot of guns fully made of metal anyway

[@minhducnguyen9276]

I heard people in cold climate still prefer wood though. Because it's easier on the skin when you touch them at sub zero temperatures.

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

They started churning out the sten at a crazy rate after so many weapons were lost at dunkirk and they realised they needed more submachine guns as well, and they contained no wood. I still suspect at that time there were plenty of lee Enfields to go around though, even older models .

[@rickfinsta2951]

Just a quick note for those that don't actually understand how these parts are made (the actual handling and programming). Many round parts are made on Swiss machines and multi-spindle/multi-turret lathes where getting rid of operations (features) does not necessarily make the cycle time lower because operations are overlapping. So you can often end up in a situation where you get rid of a feature and now you have one spindle waiting on the other and you haven't gained any time. Or maybe you get rid of a 30sec. operation but it overlapped with a 28sec. operation and only gained two seconds. I think Ian hits on something that the only way to really reduce time is to go to an additive technology like injection molding versus eliminating operations on subtractively manufactured parts. With his "simplifying the sights" example, there could be a significant lead time to re-engineer fixturing (then build it) and re-program. You can't just eliminate a few sections of the program in many cases. Inspection would pretty much have to go right out the window, and with the two-week timeframe discussed here, no way you get through your statistical process control analysis and implementation so you have a pretty good chance of putting out useless garbage in high numbers.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Good point - I did not think about machines running multiple operations simultaneously.

[@tomhenry897]

Want numbers Don’t need to last long

[@XDamainI]

So what your saying is when things get hot and manufacturing is a pop up shop in some tunnel, there will be no simplification and we'll all be back to bolt action lee enfields?

[@rickfinsta2951]

@@XDamainI hey some of us stacked K-31s deep on C&R FFLs when they were like $80 each. Joking aside since a quality AR will go 10k rounds on a set of bolt rings and maybe twice that on a bolt I think we'll all be just fine.

[@brutusvonmanhammer]

ARVN RIFLES!!! Never fired and only dropped once!

[@NekoColaQ]

Me: War is bad, don't wish for war. Ian: "The burst feature would go away in war time production, it adds too many parts to the fire control group." Me: Maybe war's not so bad....

[@nicolaslecellier6980]

Don't you think hastily trained conscripts should use burst instead of full auto, to ensure they don't lose control of the gun during firing and also to prevent ammo overexpense?

[@NekoColaQ]

@@nicolaslecellier6980 No.

[@rigfordthebarbarian2895]

Fully automatic fire is virtually never used in combat. It really only comes up in close quarters fighting. Most of the time men aren't shooting to hit their enemy but simply at them, to suppress them, to allow forward/backward movement, to facilitate flanking, etc. Most kills in war are from artillery (75%+), then close air support, then ground support, then grenades, then small arms.@@nicolaslecellier6980

[@Nexsyana]

​ No, conscripts should be using semi auto If you want/need full auto fire you have your friendly machine gunner that's actually trained to do so

[@NekoColaQ]

@@nicolaslecellier6980 No

[@clintwelch9843]

Great content as always Ian. I’m reminded of the famous quote by Henry Ford, “give them any Color they want so long as it’s black.” Simplicity is best.

[@richardmyers1250]

That’s why SKS for me.

[@MendocinoMotorenWerk]

Today's episode: Not yet conceived weapons

[@detinator5]

Yet to be forgotten weapons

[@Embassy_of_Jupiter]

or "not yet remembered weapons"

[@RSpracticalshooting]

@BruceLortzHI why do all that? Just drone strike everything. Better yet, just drop a nuke. No need to worry about collateral damage amirite?

[@altonb93]

@@detinator5 Yet to be forgotten civilization😂

[@IanGarris]

@@BruceLortzHI You want both of them on a team. Drone operator gets domed from behind while he has his goggles on, that's … uh, a very bad thing.

[@Stresscat1]

I've got one that's unpopular. Because aluminum is a strategic material needed in the aviation sector (especially 6061 and 7075) an AR upper receiver is developed that is stamped and welded from trunnions and and sheet metal.

[@bvzv]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3OWlJx-iZqkrbs

[@jeff7.629]

Sounds like an AR 18 upper.

[@Stresscat1]

@@jeff7.629 Kind of, but the G3 would be a better model of what would have to be done.

[@eksbocks9438]

We could also use steel tubing, as a replacement. That way, we can skip the stamping process altogether.

[@clothar23]

@@eksbocks9438 Great a modern sten or grease gun. Not that I disagree mind you. I just don't want to be the poor bastard lugging around a glorified sten gun in 2023 or beyond.

[@russwoodward8251]

I was a manufacturer for 26 years, I think your assumptions are pretty spot on. Thanks Ian!

[@felmir]

Definitely have to agree with the poly lowers idea there. I worked in a production plant that made AR parts and that 65 second turn around per part stacks up roughly with how long it took to load the machine up with each part, machine time was probably 15 minutes per part from forging to finish machining (so not counting coating, or anything else.) Would be harder to get the rest of the machines (even counting the ones saved by not milling lowers) to keep up with that lol.

[@deadrabbit5566]

The sheer knowledge this man holds in his mind is impeccable.

[@AaronMichaelLong]

Ian's great, but I'm pretty sure he writes his scripts ahead of time.

[@DelGTAGrndrs]

@@AaronMichaelLong yes, I’d say 95% have scripts that they stick to but aren’t always following perfectly or else they would sound like a robot.

[@scootinhootin6928]

True, bur he can be wrong. Just as with anything tbf

[@SoloRenegade]

he gets a LOT wrong in this video. An engineer and manufacturing expert he is not. And he compares obsolete technology to modern technology. He knows his guns, but don't take manufacturing/logistical advice from him.

[@randallraszick6001]

Gun Jesus is actually a mechanical engineer IIRC.

[@rongardener4142]

I've just realised that Ian is only a shave and a huff of helium away from being Geddy Lee!

[@WyoHighlanderDef]

Once you see it. You can't unsee it

[@eldorados_lost_searcher]

Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobtrusive...

[@TheWolfsnack]

...running bass riffs on a FAMAS!

[@psychomidget1]

A Salesman! A Salesman!!!

[@blank557]

Though he basks in the limelight, his mind is definitely not for rent! He's a New World man.

[@okaro6595]

Teh Finnish army actually planned this in the early 60s. They designed what they called 7,62 RK X. It had a very crude stamped receiver which did not have a separate cover. The idea was that then one could use parts made for normal repair work to quickly assembler rifles.

[@11aaguilar]

I think an easy change that was overlooked is the handguard. Every M4 these days has an expensive and probably machining-intensive KAC picatinny handguard. Change that to traditional M4 handguards and you save a lot of time.

[@jlangford7422]

Couldn’t agree more. Unless needed for accessories, pic rails are both heavy and painful. MLOC is such a better way to go.

[@VeritasEtAequitas]

@@jlangford7422 Nah, you're gonna get a molded plastic tube.

[@donaldknapik2706]

Watching a bunch of machining videos showing the setup time for an operation makes your discussion on simplification a lot more relevant.

[@donaldasayers]

I think he's wrong, because of the time taken to make the mould. Once you have a mould then yes it's fast, but til that point CNC wins for speed.

[@Stevarooni]

​@@donaldasayers problems of speed are definitely complicated.

[@donaldknapik2706]

@@donaldasayers I agree. Perfecting a mould is very time consuming and CNC will beat it out if you have enough machine time. If you are making an injection mould then focusing your efforts on mission critical areas where tolerances are important and niceties like exterior finish are secondary can yield a fast turnaround time. I believe his point is that once the mould is in place the cycle time per part decreases exponentially. CAD combined with CNC has dramatically reduced mould creation turnaround times.

[@MarvinCZ]

​@@donaldasayers It takes a long time to design the mold. We have a good mold design so that part can be skipped. Making the mold once it's designed still isn't easy or fast but it's faster. In the end, it's constant setup time and much faster unit build times after that, versus slower unit build times without (as much) setup time. Over a certain number of units produced, the mold will be faster. That number won't be very high either. If you're to the point of needing to simplify production, you're well past the number where injection molding will be faster.

[@lordsummerisle87]

A major advantage that a polymer receiver gives other than speed is use of production capability that might otherwise be underutilized. There's probably a fixed number of facilities with CNC machining centres as well as the skilled staff to run them efficiently (inspection, maintenance, setup). Find an established factory that injection moulds car dashboards, send them a few sets of receiver moulds and some technical data packages and let them get on with what they're experienced at, i.e. injection moulding complex parts at quantity. Let the machine shops churn out stuff that can't be moulded, like bolt carriers and TMH parts. This approach is the reason Britain produced the Mk3 STEN (utilisation of parts stamping facilities for the toy industry) and the De Haviland Mosquito (furniture workshops).

[@khoinguyenphamtrong4637]

Soviet had a similar project when it attempted to simplify the AKM and AK74 production for normal factories without guns expertise. These AKs had the handguard simplified, no muzzle thread, the stock being something like metal wire folding stock but fixed, some parts were casted rather than milled, and the receiver was more like being bent instead of being stamped. They are also equipped with three 40 round mags instead of typical four 30 round mags

[@eksbocks9438]

What was the name of the project? I'm kind of interested

[@khoinguyenphamtrong4637]

@@eksbocks9438 I don't know the name of that, but you can look up 6p1 wartime AK

[@Lenta7735]

@@eksbocks9438 Wartime AK 6P1

[@Rolley189]

I'd love for this to be a series. How to simplify (last-ditchify?) Modern firearms.

[@gustavesoucy-breton6841]

things like the m14 could have been simplified mini-14 styleé

[@pickels4429]

I think for most nato countries they would just use the weapon ian describes here, most countries not already using a m16 style weapon tend to use something a lot more complex (piston driven ar18 based designs) where as they could issue the weapon ian described and already have magazines etc ready and for countries using hk416's the manual of arms is pretty much the same

[@johnbuttery1171]

I'm reminded of the simplified standard rifle described in World War Z. A bit crude and semi auto only but reliable. Pairs well with a shovel.

[@ColdBrewLobster]

The Standard Infantry Rifle. SIR, Yes SIR!

[@geodkyt]

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the actual late Cold War "wartime emergency" rifle proposals to be kept on file for "if and when needed". Both were similar - open bolt, full auto only, side magazine feed directly above the pistol grip. The US version, from TRW, IIRC, simply used an M60 grip assembly and M16 magazines. The British version used L1A1 magazines and a Sterling SMG FCG.

[@patricknaughton4177]

Can you post a link to a site or photo about these? Sounds interesting

[@geodkyt]

@@patricknaughton4177 I tried to post links to Ian's article (no video) on the Forgotten Weapons site that covers the TRW, and to the Royal Armouries KZbin page where they go over the Sterling emergency rifles. I did misspeak with the Sterling - it was lever delayed blowback, and the L1A1 magazine goes in from the bottom.

[@paleoph6168]

Seeing "Last Ditch" in the title, I thought you were going to debunk myths on the last ditch Arisaka rifles. Oh well, I guess I can still wait.

[@erikbergstrom258]

He has a video on that already

[@highjumpstudios2384]

I think he's already done a video on simplified arisaka rifles. Mainly going into the fact that while there was a removal of features, there was no appreciable drop in quality.

[@Hjerte_Verke]

Get some better reading glasses? Last Ditch WW THREE is plainly obvious, but you are used to "Forgotten Weapons" only and not subject matter that deviates from the channel title. Idiocy is on display everywhere.....🤣

[@highjumpstudios2384]

@@Hjerte_Verke what the fuck is your problem dude. The man was excited for his Arisaka lore there's no need to put him down like that.

[@BetweenTheBorders]

I'm impressed the first modification isn't getting rid of the forward assist. Multiple pieces and machining operations, fiddly to install, and usually unused. I realize it (and the winter trigger guard) would be rolled into "monolithic receiver changes" but much like the M203 cut, it's really a holdover from original designs that may need to be depreciated.

[@elliottscott6179]

I think this is one of the coolest you've made yet. TY! But I love the historical firearms you do. It's really cool to see what was the standard at the time given the situation at the time.

[@romeoechofoxtrot18]

I wouldn't be surprised if people on Reddit started building last-ditch world war3 M16/AR15 clones using Kp15 lowers

[@eksbocks9438]

I'm not gonna lie. That would be awesome

[@randomidiot8142]

I don't think the majority of r/users know how to simplify a weapon. They never stop adding crap trying to make the ultimate multi tool that ends up being as useless as the 'every option' swiss army knife that barely qualifies as a knife.

[@kovona]

The folks at Gunnitrust are already 3D printing their own AR lowers.

[@williamganley4739]

My reddit version of a simple wartime production rifle would be a KP-15 monolithic polymer lower with a semi and auto selector. Paired with a 14.5 inch government profile barrel with FSB. A2 flash hider, A2 handguards, and a Daniel Defense A1.5 rear iron site. A one piece webbing sling with forward mounted sewn on triglide for length adjustment retaining a QD stud and mount attached to the upper receiver rail. The rear webbing has two triglides through the buttstock for a sling stop. For the field gear just give them a six mag bandolier, a pack of Skittles and Red Bull and say go for it.

[@TaylorWilmes]

@@randomidiot8142 what if you have night vision? Or you want to see in the dark? Optics and flashlights with ir laser/illuminators give you a discernible advantage. Hell, you could replace the optic with a thermal optic then all you’d need is a flashlight. Without them, how would you fight in the dark or against people with those things? Can’t see irons in the dark. Slings are important too.

[@johnnychimpo8111]

I would think the forward assist would be one of the first things to go.

[@clothar23]

The forward assist should have never existed to begin with. But yes it'd likely go first along with adjustable stocks and optics.

[@generalkayoss7347]

@@clothar23 If you train to use it, it's useful once in a great while.

[@clothar23]

@@generalkayoss7347 The forward assist exist solely for the purpose of dealing with a problem racking the charging handle solves just as well. And racking the charging handle has the added benefit of not getting a round jammed into unfortunate places.

[@generalkayoss7347]

@@clothar23 Yeah but bumping the forward assist is faster than racking the charging handle, plus you don't lose a round.

[@benhunter3542]

Last ditch rifles will mostly use last ditch ammo…….

[@marcelthevirginian1656]

I'd love to see an illustration or 3D model of what this would look like. Also, this is something I've been very curious about. Thanks for covering this.

[@jamesblair9614]

What an excellent channel! I’ve watched so many of your videos with great interest, not commenting but always thumbs up, your presentations are very well done. (I’ve used the word excellent once already)

[@MrMiguella]

Gotta love the xm177 just sitting on a drinks globe in the background

[@magoid]

One last ditch feature is get hid of the buffer tube and buffer system entirely. Make a new upper receiver with self contained spring like Sig did in their rifles, is another good reduction in parts needed for a functional rifle. Trow in the deletion of the forward assist and you get a gun that is lighter and with a lot less parts.

[@Miazger]

I don't know if you have seen bolt carrier in Sig MCX and speer This bitch would take so much more machining time than standard tread and screw in buffer tube Jumping in to monolithic would be way easier and cheaper than retooling for new bcg and receiver

[@magoid]

@@Miazger I said Sig but can be like the AR-18.

[@eksbocks9438]

It would be pretty easy to do, as well. The spring would have to be up top, though. So it can clear the hammer. Then make it a side charger. Other than that, it's as simple as cutting off the back of the bolt carrier.

[@mjones4220]

Yeah I agree with you on that. Especially the barrel cut. The polymer lower with fixed lop. As well as a return to iron sights. Would be where I would go to simplify.

[@bertamus47]

A gun guy who knows the word vacillate. The world needs more Ians.

[@viewatyourownrisk]

The idea of a molded polymer receiver production time is an interesting point. It seems, layperson perspective, that would even be faster than stamped receivers. Thanks Ian

[@josephcrowley7635]

There's so many cnc shops in the US that I doubt there would be a shortage of cnc mills to take on the challenge of producing AR parts.

[@karllambert2350]

Problem is getting aluminum/steel .. how many areas have steel/aluminum mills?

[@stephen_crumley]

@@karllambert2350 every single shop that has any machining equipment, has tons of aluminum and various grades of steel

[@excellent_name]

@@stephen_crumley we don't produce raw metals domestically. Shops can't afford to stock 2+ years of materials

[@Matt-xc6sp]

Under who’s authority? Who’s organizing and funding this? I don’t know if you’ve seen America lately, but the federal government going to the Midwest and telling private shop owners to make them guns isn’t going to be a great strategy. They’re more likely to fight against the US government than help it

[@mirzahakeem6151]

The United States of America is the last place on Earth for anyone or any armies that want to invade thanks to the high number of guns per people ratio. Unfortunately, US politics threatened the very reason why the USA was not invaded in the first place.

[@TheJoebarrett]

You are a great speaker with a wealth of information. Thank you for sharing

[@Mr2ndAmendment]

I think the govt would be hesitant to change anything about the base M4A1/M16A4s. They're NSN end items, the designs were frozen, and any contractor supplying parts must meet the technical data package requirements. I think any M16/M4 variants in storage, with guard or reserve units, or less-critical components would have their weapons taken and moved to where they're needed first. I think the many US makers and shops of AR parts would be involved in turning out parts, and maybe certain requirements would be dropped or mitigated to keep units flowing from hundreds of big and small companies in the mix. FN and maybe several other big AR authorities would be tasked with final assembly and inspection of completed units. This might involve farming out the mil spec inspections, or the govt still doing them, but with very large batch testing. I think, if it was even more desperate than any of that, then what Ian said would probably happen. Something like KE Arms poly/monolithic lowers, with no optics, basic iron sights, probably even standard hand guards. You just need weapons, cheap, fast, and a lot of them. If the govt was willing to cut through its own red tape and just get what it needs in a super dire situation, I think it'd make a lot of sense.

[@eksbocks9438]

I could imagine it being like a Luty SMG, with a delayed-blowback action. Like the HK G3. The upper and buffer tube would be just a single piece of square tubing. And the lower would be the same. Then just duct tape a piece of wood for a handguard. Or incorporate the handguard into the single-piece upper, so you can add a front sight easier.

[@maximus9812]

The TRW LMR comes pretty close. Open bolt, delayed blowback 5.56 rifle designed as an airdropped insurgency weapon. It also looks like a dollar store FG 42.

[@rifleandcarbine7656]

Having gone through US Army basic training within the last year, I'll have you know the current issue M4A1 has auto instead of burst. Also, many of the weapons we had were originally M4's that had been converted to M4A1's, with the burst marking overstamped with auto and M4 overstamped with M4A1. I think it is also likely that for last ditch production, you would see carbine barrels because you can get twice as many carbine barrels from barrel blanks than you can get with 20 inch barrels. At least, that is what I've been told about button rifled barrels.

[@randomidiot8142]

Blanks can be any length. They don't have to start off at 20"+. Profile your tube and drag a button through it. The longer barrel thing is more of a strategic resource use thing. Long barrels consume more material resources.

[@rockhuddy]

Barrels can be made to any length, but shorter barrels would have a number of advantages in this scenario. Less raw material, less cycle time in the drilling and reaming operations, less cycle time in profiling, and the reduced workpiece weight means everything is easier and cheaper to move around and handle between operations. The cycle time for button rifling is very short compared to all the other operations, but overall, even cutting 1" of length off of new barrels would save a lot of time and money when you consider the big quantities.

[@randomidiot8142]

@@rockhuddy hammer forging would negate the need to drill, ream, and chamber which is time consuming and expensive compared to smashing tube onto a mandrel.

[@rifleandcarbine7656]

@randomidiot8142 CHF is definitely a very efficient process. In war scenarios, sometimes less efficient methods are used in concert with better ones. This could be because the tooling/setup for the better method is a significant investment, time consuming, or few companies can support it. I'll point out that the cast hull Sherman tanks eliminated much of the expensive, time-consuming welding, but welded hulls were still rolling off assembly lines at the same time. This was because many of the Sherman producers didn't have casting facilities capable of making a full hull.

[@rockhuddy]

@@randomidiot8142 You still need to drill and ream prior to hammer forging, maybe you could get away with drill only but the quality would suffer significantly. I'm not aware of any hammer forging done from tubing, if that was an option then you could just as easily button rifle tubing. Putting in the chamber as part of the hammer forging process is possible, and might make sense in this scenario, but it's not very common right now due to quality concerns.

[@johnathansaegal3156]

I was issued an M16 in the Army. We had no adjustable rear sight, no 3-round burst, and the carry handle was not some rail-mounted accessory, it was part of the upper receiver and I loved the rifle - even the triangular handguard.

[@SoloPilot6]

The Poodle Shooters have always had adjustable rear sights. The early version required a spanner to do this, so lugs were on the combo tool.

[@lumbyman]

I think one of the biggest ways to save time would be finish quality, I used to make M2 barrels and from start to finish took about 80 minutes for the profiling, as it was important to go slower for 1. insert life and 2. Surface finish (we shot for about 15-25 RA, but the exterior finish smoothness doesn't actually make a huge deal for the most part, excluding the muzzle/threads, you could drop 10-25 minutes a barrel just by cranking up the speed and sacrificing that surface finish down to about 125-175RA.

[@charleykeenan6171]

Past armies only wish they had the capacity to build a rifle such as you have described. Great episode.

[@twoowls4469]

Great to hear someone talking about the fine details of the production aspect of supply chain (setup time, machine time, etc.). So many don't understand this! Thanks for your work.

[@ericjohnson2024]

I have a last-ditch type 99 arisaka and I love that rifle! Out of all the bolt-actions I have, it is by far my most favorite.

[@Gruvy]

Interesting points made about polymer. Here in australia our standard service rifle the f88 (now improved version called f90, steyr aug copy) has alot of polymer from the trigger, stock and firegroup (hammer included). Main metal components are the gas system, barrel/upper reciever. Mind you the f88 entered service in you guessed it 1988.

[@Tackleberry117]

I side with Ian on sights, adjustable irons is the simplest baseline. If a rifle doesn't hit where pvt conscriptovich aims, it's waste not a rifle

[@jonathanmichaelsmith9012]

pvt conscriptovich - do you watch perun?

[@Tackleberry117]

@@jonathanmichaelsmith9012 I thought all the cool kids do lol

[@James-cr5mc]

The L85 comes to mind here. All those issues it had would've been hell to try and correct during war time.

[@tomjim447]

Much like the M16 during Vietnam eh? 😉

[@MrSuba47]

Last ditch Britton weapon Sten Mk.69 (sterling maybe) like you said L85 would fail miserably.

[@ninjaturkey100]

Probably they (hopefully) would've just reverted to the L1A1.

[@DraikSith]

Seems to me that the forward assist would likely go away; it's not necessary to the basic function of the rifle and it adds several small parts that are potential production bottlenecks in a breakneck, build-as-many-as-you-can scenario like this. This could also reduce production time on the bolt carrier, since they wouldn't need to bother milling the ratchet grooves. I imagine they'd just fill the hole where the FA is installed with a solid plug rather than change the actual receiver design, though.

[@kennethhoppe2259]

I really enjoy learning from you and learn something every time I listen to you. It's tuff to watch you with that long hair. So I listen and try and change my ole ways and learn. Thank You Sir.

[@sauceboss3101]

We have last ditch AR15s already and they're made by Bear Creek

[@altonb93]

💀💀😂😂😂😂

[@SCH292]

We also have last ditch pistols too. Hi Point. Oh..I hope I didn't "trigger WW3" over my stupid not funny comment. Hi Point guys are very sensitive.

[@sauceboss3101]

@@SCH292 hi point guys know where they stand. Bear creek boys cope hard

[@egomania2792]

@@SCH292 "Just as good...!"

[@rifles_up2263]

😂

[@justinmccoy7167]

KE arms lowers would be key. You can injection mold way faster than forge and machine. I am glad a company finally got the kinks worked out of polymer lowers.

[@No-mq5lw]

@@ljubomirculibrk4097 How much does recycling even matter in this scenario? You are sending guns out to the front line that are eventually going to be destroyed sight unseen or captured. Polymer molding fits neatly into this scenario as it's about as strong as aluminum if your polymer mix and design are just right, which the KP-15 lower happens to be. If militaries had no problem making stocks out of wood for rifles chambered with far more powerful stuff than 5.56 that realistically couldn't be recycled, reused for anything else, and can rot over time in the right conditions for 100s of years, I see no problem issuing M4/M16s out of polymer. And is there even an AR-15 lower that's stamped?

[@nathanielkidd2840]

@@ljubomirculibrk4097you would have to stamp a lower for an AR in two halves. With the additional time it will take to weld them, you’re not going to get production time to just over a minute. Not to mention the additional time it takes to mount a tube, butt stock and grip.

[@justinmccoy7167]

@@ljubomirculibrk4097 yea, but you still have to assemble the sheet metal and rivet together? I honestly wasn't really think about the AK or stamped design. I was boxing myself into the standard AR/M4 platform. KE arms can mold one in 65s . That's pretty damn fast.

[@justinmccoy7167]

@@user-ts3sw5pm7k I own a KP-15. It's solid. It's not going anywhere and you can buy one for 80 bucks. I wouldn't make a sniper system from it, but for a general purpose 500 yds and in rifle, it works just fine.

[@justinmccoy7167]

@@nathanielkidd2840 I think he is referring more to an AK style system.

[@ericcotter1984]

Idk how i've never stumbled upon your channel but you seem to be incredibly intelligent and i really enjoy that most out of anything in a youtuber

[@JeepWranglerIslander]

I would imagine the new choke point in the production of your new simplified polymer parts would be the barrel milling. So if barrel milling takes X amount of time and the removal of a feature saves and amount of time that still doesn't push you over that X time, you could theoretically keep the feature because even if you speed up production of those parts you overall don't save any time cutting it out because you're still waiting on that barrel to be drilled and rifled.

[@KuruGDI]

Another one of those questions that may sound silly at first glance but are worth an answer and Ian delivers said answer and a very professinal and informative way!

[@TimCristy]

I wonder how many older pattern M16s and M14s we have in storage? I know most of the M1s were sold as surplus.

[@thegreenman2030]

Even though We left a hell of a lot of them in Afghanistan for the Taliban, I bet there are still so many out there including ones they lost track of.

[@Mister_Kourkoutas]

Some of the M14’s were modernised and converted into DMR’s. Others were sent to allied nations, several thousand have ended up in Ukraine.

[@tomhenry897]

None Bill Clinton destroyed them

[@wes11bravo]

I think we have a lot more of that stuff in warehouses than people think. (Edit because I just realized:) And recent news bears out the fact that often the government doesn't know what they have - some guy bought a lot of several rifle transport cases. Each case is designed to carry maybe 12 rifles? Well, the cases this guy bought came full of bonus M16A2s! I can't imagine it's the first time something like that has happened.

[@thegreenman2030]

@@wes11bravo I agree. That situation a few months back in CA proves it. That woman ordered a ton of military storage containers to resell and they were all packed with M16A1’s from the 70’s and 80’s. If they had ent have reported it no one would have been the wiser.

[@BullsMahunny]

I could also see them removing the forward assist to streamline the upper and save on parts/materials, removing the grips that have the little doors in them for oil and such, hell, possibly even removing the dust covers in extreme circumstances.

[@louisgood604]

My first thought to a war time at would be to get rid of the forward assist. There are many competition guns out there that don't have it. Stoner also added it to appease the army many years ago so it is clearly not needed Other considerations are things like the steel alloy used for the BCG. You could go back to something like high carbon tool steel which would last long enough apply a good coating and possibly reduce material complexity. Finally do you think they would just get rid of the detachable carry handle and go back to a fixed A2 style. Seems like it would reduce a lot of parts, machine time and logistical challenges of getting all the pieces to meet up somewhere when it was a completed firearm.

[@Lomi311]

Phased Plasma Rifles in the 40 Watt range would be good.

[@Narcan885]

Yawn.

[@eksbocks9438]

It's just what you see, pal.

[@purebloodheretic4682]

Classic Line! Too Bad Arnie Went Woke! Dam Shame! 😁👍

[@minhducnguyen9276]

The rifle will have to be able to accept steel case ammo because brass will be rationed and prioritized for artillery shells. The lead inside the bullets might also get replaced with steel to save cost, lead will be saved for high precision ammo for marksman rifles. The body of the guns will be made out of stamped steel or molded plastic because aluminum will be saved for aircraft production. Stocks might be made out of wood because plastic might also need to be saved. Basically the gun will have to be made out of the cheapest, most abundant and easy to work with materials. Oh and keep the full auto. Because if machine guns are not largely available, soldiers might still need them and realistically, an industrial country prepared for total war will not run out of ammunition before it run out of guns and men to shoot all those ammunition. If you have factories running days and nights making steel case ammo with steel bullets cold war style, you'd have massive stockpiles distributed all across the countries waiting to be cracked open. Even today they still open cold war surplus spam cans in Ukraine at the same time, selling them in the US market you won't be running out of them anytime soon.

[@mikefranklin1253]

Considering that there is likely a million reloaders, each sitting on thousands of pieces of brass and other components, and each capable of loading a 1000 rounds in one day, I doubt it.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

​​@@mikefranklin1253You don't save brass in wartime production because you run out of it but because you need to save it for something more important but can't be substituted with steel: artillery shells. 1000×556 brass casing is roughly the same amount you need to make one 105mm howitzer shell casing. Not to mention from the military perspective, if you use your brass in your rifles, that brass is lost because nobody will walk into a battlefield to pick up spent casing but in a artillery battery there will always be people collecting casing for recycling, the brass will be more likely to be recycled passing through the cannons than through a soldiers hands. In WW2 many countries had to use steel casing for rifles because they consumed artillery shells at insane rate. Of course they probably wouldn't ask you to donate your brass, they wouldn't have the logistics to collect them all anyway, more like stop making brass casing ammunition in the factories and dismantle old ammo stockpiles for the brass. This is why I don't think they're mobilize the CNC machines to make guns, the vehicles and heavy machinery production lines can make better use out of them.

[@standupp2885]

Modern artillery rounds do not use brass casings. The round is shoved into the the breach, powder bags are cut according to what the approximate range to the target is, then shoved up behind the artillery shell. Then the primer is installed and the breach is closed and the round is ready to be fired.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

@@standupp2885 Only applies to large caliber artilleries. Most artillery still use brass casing.

[@DJtheLoungeLizard]

Tanks and Planes were the new technology in WW2 and that caused a shortage in metals. And to produce those took loads of lathes. And accurate (at least, accurate enough) lathes means heavy weight. Add that after Pearl Harbor, they had to significantly expand their production immediately. To replace caste iron to give the lathe necessary heft, they used concrete. There was a field manual that gave these instructions for creating these concrete lathes. They used two pipes to replace the dovetail for the tooling to travel. It wasn't the most accurate set up. It just needed to be accurate enough. And quick enough to produce.

[@slick3129]

There are a lot of shops like the one I work for (Aerospace) that have numerous CNC mills, lathes, and punches/lasers for cutting sheet metal. In an emergency we could be put to use making gun parts.

[@Matt-xc6sp]

I don’t see how a modern conflict could escalate to where last ditch weapons are needed without every single nuclear weapon on earth being reached for first.

[@Alexander-cg1ey]

Because these kinds of conversations are more about pretending humanity will survive

[@Matt-xc6sp]

@@Alexander-cg1ey everyone wants to live post apocalypse but no one considers we have to live through the apocalypse first. Those crye Multicam combat pants aren’t so gucci when you’re pooping in them because there’s no clean water.

[@Embassy_of_Jupiter]

Total nuclear war doesn't necessarily mean the fighting stops. Projections say it would kill around 50% of the population within 10 months. After that the remaining population would probably be desperate to arm themselves to secure the remaining resources. Even if 90% or 99% die, it's very possible that they just keep fighting.

[@PopeOfTheBullpuptistChurch]

I mean think of it this way, if someone is invading another country (Like RU to Ukraine) it’s because they presumably want territorial control over that region or the whole country and it’s people. Nobody wants to be the ruler of ruble 🤷‍♂️ I guess it depends on the context

[@Alexander-cg1ey]

@@Matt-xc6sp For real. So much of the prepper community are actively pushing for societal collapse and it seems to be for every reason from wanting to be in a video game fantasy to just being pissy about not being national hegemon anymore.

[@rhinox0110]

That was very interesting, Thank You Mr. Ian I hope we get more discussions like this.

[@ae86nick72]

Probably would be a fixed front sight base with some type of detachable carry handle or some type of easy to produce rear iron, as far as uppers go, maybe even a cheaply made mlok rail for atleast some type of attachment later down the road. If it gets bad we still need a way to mount laser aiming modules because I think it paramount to own the night to win any modern war

[@hardcode57]

Not sure that you'd go for safe-semi-full selection: last ditch weapons go to last ditch conscripts with poor training. Remember that you're also going to be having ammunition shortages at that stage, so just semi-auto makes the most sense, and and of course the parts are readily available (indeed you could use civilian ARs).

[@petesheppard1709]

First, take the time to do it right...then think about cheap. A perfect example is the simplification of the M1903 for WWII production. On AR, I'd drop the fun switch and stick with semi only. LAST thought...why the barrel cut instead of just making a slightly larger barrel clamp for M203s and eliminate a weak point in the barrel along with reducing cost?

[@americaforer1776]

True during world war 2 the Japanese and the Germans had iusses military and industrial production for example the Japanese have the home guard old men from the ages of 17 to 70 and women for the ages of 16 to 50 and the Nazis had the Volksstrum ages 17 to 40 and basically Hitler youth from ages 13 to 80

[@altonb93]

Integrated muzzle devices. Just holes drilled/machined into the barrel. Removed the threading step and having to making the muzzle device.

[@lancesmith5313]

I think a way to field an army in times discussed, is to reinstitute something like the Militia Act of 1792. All men between 18 and 60 (who can pass a NICS check) would be required to maintain a rifle and modern minuteman load out. Also, since a concealed carry permit is issued typically by a Sheriff's Office, those carry holders should be part of a posse call up. Of course annual drill and training to go along with both the Militia Act and posse.

[@buffewo6386]

The ultra violent Swiss manage to do something almost exactly like this without the world ending. Full service rifles (giggle switchs/normal cap mags) in the hands of the masses, what horror!! In a world when you can expect your conscripted manpower to come equiped/trained to minimums, "last ditch" is further back than expected by most.

[@anon-1776]

We already do exactly this in Missouri, it's called the Missouri State Militia. Great for help in crises like natural disasters and everything else. I don't understand why more states haven't implemented this as well. The MO Mil is composed of about 60% veterans 40% civ, if someone can't fight, they can use the radios or cook and serve food etc.

[@kcpwnsgman]

I'd suspect the upper receiver group would look like the changes Ruger made to their AR556. Barrel profile, hand guard D-ring retaining, and the front sight tower are all drastically modified and simplified allowing for easier and quicker assembly, and I think you'd see chrome lining etc go out the window

[@spydercomonkey]

Using 40rd mags is another option, in that the standard combat load can be reduced from 7x30rd 210rd loadout to 5x40rd 200rd loadout. This would also give some advantage to the WW315 over an enemies 30rd equipped rifle.

[@trevr10]

Interesting as ever. In 1980 as a British soldier my main weapon was the L1A1 which had been in service since the mid 50's. However there was still a large reserve stock of WW2 era weapons including Lee Enfields and Bren guns. Some had been converted to 7.62 for use as Sniper rifles and LMGs However those in store were .303 and what was then called CAD Kineton had millions of rounds of .303 ammunition in store which they were in the process of disposing of.

[@AshleyPomeroy]

I wonder if they thought about borrowing an old Vickers from the Imperial War Museum and doing another two-million-round durability test.

[@AaronMichaelLong]

Great video and a good question. I think one critical answer to the question of "why don't we make these design compromises now" is the civilian market. SIG may be contracting with the U.S. Army to make their new rifle, the Spear, but they're probably not going to pocket as much profit from their Government contract as they will selling the civilian versions to the spec-ops cosplay market at $4k a pop, and all these design compromises made to produce a less expensive weapon are going to reduce their appeal to that market. Also, on the topic of cheap wartime guns, the truly compromised weapons weren't general issue guns that they docked features from to increase production, they were weapons designed from the ground up as inexpensive but functional bullet hoses. I'm looking at you, M3 Grease Gun and Sten Mk 1. These weapons weren't predominantly issued to regular infantry, they were issued to rear-eschelon troops, tank crews, or anyone the brass felt needed to be armed, but for whom an expensive rifle was deemed overkill.

[@ZeroSuitSamo]

I'd like to see a production "drag race" between a aluminum and polymer lowers. The polymer lower would have to include milling the dies for the mold and sonic welding the halves together, but the aluminum one would have to install all the parts that the polymer ones have as part of the unit before the next one can be started. I guess to make it fair you might as well just make complete lowers for both since if you're going to attach a grip then you're going to install the detent and spring, and if you're going to install that you should just do the safety, and at that point just do everything. But with the huge lead time before the polymer ones could start being made I'd be curious how long it would take and how many lowers would be made before the polymer ones take the lead

[@ezperson0131]

Honestly they'd probably also go with a reciprocating charging handle similar to the ones like bear creek arsenal does. Gets rid of the need for the forward assist as well as the non-reciprocating charging handle at the same time

[@collinmclaren6608]

This actually makes me wonder about government contingencies for weapons manufacture in a doomsday scenario. They always focus on contingency of government and leadership, but you never hear about contingencies to continue fuelling the war effort

[@nikitajukov4915]

Soviets actually developed a series of AK for full-scale nuclear war scenario with Izhevsn and Tula destroyed in the first week, so they could make rifles almost at any factory.

[@collinmclaren6608]

@@nikitajukov4915 I'm talking more like, having CNC machines and CAD printers stored away in somewhere like Cheyenne Mountain or Raven Rock. But I'm curious to hear more about this AK program. Anywhere specific you heard it from?

[@nikitajukov4915]

@@collinmclaren6608 it came from Pavel Ptitsyn archive research. In 1968 program of developing simplified AKM started with the goal of bringing man-hour needed to PPSh levels. Degrading finish etc was not effective so some changes were needed. Some of them included stamped and welded non-folding stock, coated in resin, simplified reunion without rear sight base, replacing leaf sight to 3 position drum, kinda SVD-style hand guard (fully covering gas tube to protect it, since it was supposed to be made from less strong metal), simplified gas stock geometry, stamped trigger group parts instead of milled, some other milled parts replaced by casted. Also they came with 40rnd RPK mags for it since you need only 3 of them instead of 4 to carry standard ammo of 120 rounds, removed markings and weakened bayonet. Program was finished in 1970 with patent, but in 1972 it was restarted to address some issues - long hand guard didn't fit in BMP ball mounts so it was replaced with shorter one, stock became polymer, and side-folding fully stamped metal stock was developed and RPK mags were replaced with non-reinforced polymer 30 rounders. Also not so strong proof check was required for this 6P1V (V for wartime). It's believed that civil factories provided with the task got set of drawings, but the whole program was kinda ceased by AK-74 adoption, though some elements did see use on AK-74 gradually simplificated during it's production in the future.

[@archersfriend5900]

You, mean like sanctioning China on computer chips, or paying the defense industry to build stuff we do not need, but would lose the ability to build it if they stop. This stuff happens constantly, but you need to look for it.

[@richsackett3423]

You don’t hear about them because those are military secrets. What a dunce.

[@KingLoopie1]

Looking into the past, I see vastly simplified pps 43 from the ppsh 41. And stamped receivers on ak's vs the milled receivers. Stamping is also just about as fast as injection molding without the complex /specific recipes for the composite.

[@meadball1]

I could see the forward assist going away as well as any kind of brass deflector. If steel was in short supply, maybe shorter barrels and gas tubes? If you're trying to decrease machine run time, have 4 maybe, 5 picatinny rail slots if you must have them. Very rudimentary flash hider or just a plain crowned muzzle. Lots of different ways to cut down run time

[@kasonsmith5151]

A relative was a tool and die maker at Hydromantic, and I brought it up with him after I saw a conversion of one to an A2 when I was in. GM stored the tooling after the M-16 orders. I assume the other makers' tooling was also stored.

[@Toactwithoutthinking]

You're more likely to just see proper shops retooled en masse than change much of the overall reciever structure

[@ImSpartacus811]

That's clearly a "low hanging fruit" sort of thing that you start with. But after you've exhausted machine shop capacity, what's the harm in retooling your injection mold shops that would've otherwise sat unused? Also remember that machine shop time will be in high demand for other projects that have nothing to do with small arms. If you can move part of your small arms manufacturing over to a shop that used to injection mold kids toys, then that frees up machine shop time for potentially more important war effort projects that truly need it.

[@rudyschwab7709]

If the situation becomes dire enough, there may not be enough shops to retool, even if raw materials are still available in the quantities needed. Many shops may be destroyed in the conflict or may become trapped behind enemy lines. The conflict may also consume a shop's manpower and shortcuts in production will have to be taken.

[@endworld418]

@@rudyschwab7709 look at the soviets in ww2 their small arms wher pretty much exclusively made in small machine shops

[@SoloRenegade]

@@ImSpartacus811 you are Not going to exhaust CNC machine shop capacity in teh US. the US civilian militia has tens of millions of AR15s. there will NEVER BE A SHORTAGE of high quality guns in the US in ANY WAR.

[@tomhenry897]

Look at all the small shops used in America during ww2

[@williamhewitt476]

I'm a big fan of the channel and I've been watching for years keep up with the awesome videos Ian.

[@imjashingyou3461]

The advantage with polymer receivers is that you can now put all of those CnC machines to work cranking out molds and massively scale up production.

[@frankboydstun1109]

Spent 26 yrs as engineer building process and simulation models doing similar, but far more painful, in depth analysis of the entire spectrum of transport and production for Air Force depot's, "supply chain". My compliments on the short, yet pithy, identification of initial targets and relative potential of change. Especially appreciated the initial comparison of peace versus war time context. Good job.

[@parrotraiser6541]

Thinking through a simpifed model would probably be a worthwhile exercise for any piece of equipment. Give the job to small teams of new engineers as a training task. It might even lead to genuine improvements to the "De Luxe" model or its production processes.

[@FrankDad]

Last ditch nowadays would be off the shelf ar-15’s for sure

[@elsydeon666]

A few other things. 1. Females would be conscripted to defend the Mother/Father/Home land. 2. Barrel lengths would be shorter. Shorter barrels use less material for the barrel, which adds up. 3. We may see gas-operated rifles simplified to bolt-action rifles by eliminating the gas system. I'm not talking some bolt-action AR-15 abomination, but more like Brandon Herrera's cursed AK, which simply would not cycle. 4. The HK slap will be a generational thing, like latchkey kids. The L-notch is the simplest and cheapest way to hold a bolt open. 5. 3D-printing will be a thing, as it increases production in a decentralized way. 6. "Kill him and take his gun." guns will be a thing, like the FP-45 Liberator. 7. Weapons will be made to use enemy ammunition since you can just shoot someone and take theirs. We'd end up with a short-barrel, 3D printable, rifle that has no gas system, a fixed magazine, and can be easily converted to use captured enemy ammunition. It would be something like a Steyr AUG that won't cycle, so you have to yank the charging handle between shots.

[@saxmusicmail]

Due to the way the barrel mounts to the upper receiver, indexed by a pin on the barrel into a slot in the upper receiver, it would be absolutely necessary that the rear sight be adjustable for windage. As far as your comments about 3-rnd burst, you could argue go even simpler, Safe and Semi only, skip the burst or full auto.

[@nadams01_65]

I like to imagine something like the SIR standard infantry rifle from World War Z. Basically an AR with a reduced feature set.

[@evangraham]

American Volksgrenadier, 2045 M4A3 (despite the third iteration it's actually a downgrade) which is made with a KP15 lower, full slick side (as in no FA, casing deflector, or dustcover) upper with MBUS rear and M16A2 handguard with no heatshield, unthreaded barrel with A2 FSP and probably carbine length gas (though i don't think mid length would be anymore time consuming to make) They wear a simple load bearing vest (if you want to larp this, probably grab a FLC or cheap crossdraw) and carry a Hipoint C9 in a cheap universal holster

[@leiaorgana5098]

@@SpikeVike27 A Glock would be fairly cheap to still make they can lessen it by size or using single stack mags.

[@karlwilhelmmeinert7592]

@@SpikeVike27 I agree. What is the point of costcutting you rifle, if you add a pistol.

[@mf8759]

Our CNC machines take about 20 minutes between the two operations to make three lowers. A longer time to produce four uppers from start of operation one to completion of operation two.

[@PalKrammer]

Insightful analysis - thank you.