ASOIAF Battle Report 22 - Renly Baratheon vs. Obara Sand

[@imperialminis857]

Corrections / Notes: 1. Season 03 - 04 Changes that were not shown or explained: a.) Varys NCU changed to lose one order token b) Ellaria NCU changed to only be able to hand out one token to an enemy unit when controlling Swords, rather than two tokens as before. c) Obara’s copy of Sustained Assault now matches the Baratheon version, and has no requirement for it to affect her unit to gain maximum benefit. 2. The Stag Knights’ could have blocked the Royal Guard’s “Shieldwall” ability due to Renly 2’s “Boisterous Charisma” ability. This would have resulted in the Guard taking more wounds throughout the game. 3. “Boisterous Charisma” could not cancel the Royal Guard’s Martial Training order. 4. When failing a charge, the charging unit does not need to stay 1” away from the charged unit. 5. The “In His Brother’s Shadow” tactics card only blanks the enemy commander’s abilities, NOT the abilities of the entire commander’s unit.

[@TigerHawk310]

Also, while Shieldwall does target the attacker, Martial Training doesn’t target the defender, so it wouldn’t have been blocked by Boisterous Charisma.

[@imperialminis857]

Since Martial training names the Defender as the recipient of a Vulnerable token, I read that to mean the Defender was a target of Martial Training, and that BC could therefore block the order from firing. You interpreted this differently?

[@szilarderki5449]

Orders The next bullet point to cover is a relatively simple instance of Targeting - Orders. Page 22 of the Rulebook state s that the unit with the Order is always a target of the Order. It goes on to say that other Targets may be present as well. Let’s take a look at the Order “Martial Training”. When this unit is performing a Melee Attack, before rolling attack dice: this attack may reroll any attack dice and the Defender becomes Vulnerable. This is easy, right? The Attacker is Targeted and the Defender is Targeted. This would be an incorrect answer. We can see here that the Attacker is indeed a Target for the Order because of page 22, but since there is no chosen recipient here (the Defender simply becomes Vulnerable and this isn’t a choice); there is no other Target. We cannot specifically list every example like this, but it will always be important to note whether there is indeed a choice. If an Effect just happens, there is no Targeting.@@imperialminis857

[@imperialminis857]

Targeting remains one of the most muddled topics in what is otherwise a very clear and transparent ruleset. This is something that the devs should more satisfactorily address somehow. Thanks folks for the targeting corrections.

[@Powerslave18]

​@@imperialminis857 martial training does not target enemy unit as the enemy unitnis not mentioned in the trigger or in effect nor there is an instant of choosing recipient. Terms 'attacker' or 'defender' only describe sides during attack action (unless they are mentioned in trigger like in ullers set for charge tactics card).

[@AdvancedSquadLeader]

The intro to these battle reports are great.

[@imperialminis857]

Thanks! The intros are a lot of fun to write.

[@RotterdamWhiteScars]

Jeroen: Great video Randall! As always super enjoyable and nice to have the in-depth looks during the pre game and the game itself. Keep up the good work :D!

[@teemukujala201]

29:42 with a charge move you must move the whole distance, don’t need to stay 1” away

[@NewbieDice]

Realised how good threaten is. 6 weakened tokens over 6 turns is nice

[@imperialminis857]

It can be very valuable for a one point ability!

[@brentr926]

Always great to see another IM batrep! I wouldn’t have thought it but Riders of Highgarden seem a weirdly appropriate unit to claim and park on an Objective, being only 6 points. So that’s going in the playbook. Can’t wait for the next one!

[@imperialminis857]

A unit should never be too proud to do nothing! 😉

[@theironforest1072]

So excited to watch this game right now whilst writing. With it being a preS04 game it is actually going to help with insight on the impactfullness of the S04 changes.

[@imperialminis857]

Good point. It’s actually an interesting game in that the S04 impact would have been relatively minor. None of the combat units were touched, and just a handful of tactics card changes and some slight NCU nerfs would have resulted from S04.

[@Powerslave18]

29:50 while failing charge you dont need to stay one inch from opponent, you move total diatance, which might make your tray standing closer than one inch to enemy unit

[@teemukujala201]

1:07:22 Martell player keeps forgetting giving out panicked and weakened from his SF lance attack (it does not target)

[@Khurzan72]

When failing a charge, its the one time you ignore the rule of staying outside of 1 inch. Good game!

[@fitsara]

In His Brother's Shadows causes "commander" to lose all abilities and not the whole unit. This would enable Sunspear Royal Guard to use its order to reroll attack dice and make GSX vulnerable (ca: 48:00). Martell player had a questionable list (I think two units of Starfall knights is too much) and really terrible rolls in crucial moments. I rarely say that but dice played a huge role in this game. Tactically I don't think that he has made any huge mistakes GG!

[@brentr926]

I was going to post that very thing, IHBS would’ve only blanked Obara but in the end it probably wouldn’t have made much difference.

[@imperialminis857]

Good callout. I didn’t make a distinction between “commander” and “commander’s unit”. The trigger mentions the commander’s unit, but the card text only refers to the commander.

[@teemukujala201]

50:01 you can’t shieldwall hits from cards (Final strike) or abilities, just from attacks

[@fabiccii]

Hello, I came to watch the video as you recommended. The Battle Report was excellent, as always, and it was precisely one of the commanders I wanted to see in action. I understand when one forgets that Renly grants Precision; it happened to me the first few times I used him after his change. However, the only effect that caused me doubt, and which I later verified, was Martial Training. I found an article written by the game's creators that clarifies this point. Here is a quote from the article: "Let’s take a look at the Order “Martial Training”. When this unit is performing a Melee Attack, before rolling attack dice: this attack may reroll any attack dice and the Defender becomes Vulnerable. This is easy, right? The Attacker is Targeted and the Defender is Targeted. This would be an incorrect answer. We can see here that the Attacker is indeed a Target for the Order because of page 22, but since there is no chosen recipient here (the Defender simply becomes Vulnerable and this isn’t a choice); there is no other Target. We cannot specifically list every example like this, but it will always be important to note whether there is indeed a choice. If an Effect just happens, there is no Targeting." This means that the token can be placed, and the rerolls can be used. I clarify this for future games. However, I found something more interesting. In the same article, they talk about Hidden Traps, which is one of Baratheon's agonies. According to the article, for the case of Hidden Traps, Renly is immune (shock). Greetings again, and I appreciate the high-quality content. I will leave the article here as well asoiaf.cmon.com/news/asoiaf-tmg-guest-articles-targeting

[@imperialminis857]

I’m glad you found this video! Thanks for sharing the article. There has been much discussion in this comments section about the confusing topic of targeting. I’ll probably mess up some other aspect of targeting in future games, but I won’t confuse Martial Training any more.

[@teemukujala201]

1:15:41 In CoK bonus objective cards on Commander’s unit are used, when you activate that unit

[@HitsAndCrits]

Let’s goooooo!!!!

[@danh945]

Renly Lord Paramount really is the perfect commander for Stag Knights. The Boisterous Charisma means they are almost impossible to shut off, and the Stalwart removes their only real weakness - a 5+ morale save. But you kept forgetting the other perfect synergy; the only thing the Stag Knights don't gain in Precision, which Renly has!

[@imperialminis857]

Since the Season 05 update, Boisterous Charisma isn’t at all what it once was. It still has value, but it can’t hard-counter certain lists anymore. You’re right though I forgot about Precision for the entire game. I’ll blame it on the fact that this was the very start of Season 04 I think, and I hadn’t studied up enough on the changes prior to playing this game.

[@danh945]

@@imperialminis857 Oh no blame at all, I think you guys did great. So many things to remember! Really loving these battle reports; great to hear your thoughts before and after.

[@imperialminis857]

@danh945 I’m glad you’re enjoying them and find value in the pre and post-game reviews!

[@jefflanzilotta2057]

Great Report learned a few things from this we need to tidy up in our group. The more BR I watch and games I play, the more I understand how fragile (glass cannon) cavalry are. I also love giving my Dervishes Oberyn Martell as an attachment with his dueling ability or +1 wound, on top of all the extras if the targeted unit has not activated yet. Reading Renly's card it says Your Army may never contain units or attachment with different loyalties but I saw you had a golden company unit and NUC?

[@imperialminis857]

The “no other loyalties” rule is specifically for the Baratheon faction and refers to the Stannis / Renly divide. Golden Company is an “Affiliation”, not a Loyalty, so there’s no conflict there. Other Affiliations include Bloody Mummer, Stormcrow, Karstark, Mormont, and many others. Units can have multiple affiliations, in the case of a unit with an attachment that grants another affiliation.

[@teemukujala201]

Unfortunately there were quite a few rules mistakes in this rep. I would double check from rule book / FAQ

[@sooutofhere]

I really like the tactical thoughts before the battle! Where is the 3d Terrain from?

[@imperialminis857]

Thanks, I’m glad you find those segments helpful! My opponent brought the 3D terrain with him. I think it’s mostly homemade or 3D printed. He’s got a bunch of great looking custom terrain. Some sets of custom terrain catered toward certain armies.

[@alexgo373]

Martial Training does not target the defender, it only targets the attacker, so it should have worked on Renly. Target is: 1) Unit that uses the Order, 2) unit listed in the trigger for the order, 3) unit that is chosen among multiple possible options. None of these three conditions apply to Martial Training.

[@imperialminis857]

Good targeting call-out. Thankfully now, in this situation, the debate is no longer necessary due to the change to Boisterous Charisma. Thanks for the comment.

[@MegaArmyCadet123]

Brienne in a unit of Bolton Dogs is also an amazingly fast and pretty savage 1-2 combo should you be able to get Flank/rear charges. I've had a unit of BBG wipe out a unit of silenced men in 1 good round

[@imperialminis857]

Ouch, that does sound like a brutal combo, and not one I’ve thought about before! I’ll have to give that one a try sometime soon. 😉

[@MegaArmyCadet123]

@@imperialminis857 honestly, they can be so brutal. Especially if the enemy is already tied up with Renly or they're using a squishy archer unit

[@imperialminis857]

@MegaArmyCadet123 I’d like to give that a try. And my BBGs are already painted, so that’s a plus!

[@teemukujala201]

32:36 Boisterous charisma: Royal Guard could use Martial training, it does not target the enemy BUT it can’t use Shieldwall, as it targets the enemy. See the trigger texts for targets

[@Powerslave18]

22:14 shieldwall cant be used against unit eith boisterous charisma. This order targets also enemy attacking unit!

[@Powerslave18]

32:17 and martial training can be used against BC unit. You should take a look at bretts article on cmon asoiaf page cause he explains that pretty well

[@imperialminis857]

Thanks, there are some other similar comments about these targeting issues in my pinned thread. Targeting confusion is the gift that keeps on giving!

[@teemukujala201]

49:32 oh dear, quite a lot of rules mistakes… In his brother’s shadow only blanks the enemy commander, not the unit. Otherwise good quality rep

[@imperialminis857]

Hi Teemu. Yes, many mistakes were made on my part in the game. Those you’ve mentioned have been raised by others previously, but I hadn’t yet added them to my corrections comment. I’ve just updated that pinned comment with these corrections. I hope you enjoyed the video despite the rules mistakes.

[@teemukujala201]

@@imperialminis857 I did, very good quality and really liked the pre-game tactical thinking. Problem for me is, that when quite important rules mistakes are made, like which orders work against BC aka Shieldwall / Martial training and In his Brother's shadow, I feel, that the game could have gone so very differently and then what ever happens, kinda makes no point anymore.

[@kanyos_]

kinda annoying to hear the npcs yell/laugh in the background ngl :D

[@imperialminis857]

Yeah they had some pretty high-stakes Warhammer Something going on over there.